Conference 7.286::digital

    I believe, certain functions, i.e. US Manufacturing, were allowed
    to volunteer for TFSO 1. 
    
    I believe all subsequent packages did not accept volunteers. 
    Who knows?
    
    /Bob 

    Define "voluntary." I believe that generally speaking managers were
    told how many people they had to layoff. The party line is that the
    people picked were picked, rather then self selected, based on
    managements perception of what jobs and skill sets were needed. This
    would not be considered, by many, voluntary.

    It would not surprise me if some managers talked to a group of people,
    probably individually, and said "I have to get rid of someone, do you
    want it to be you?" This has an air of voluntaryness but it's not 
    completely voluntary. After all someone has to go why not pick someone
    who wants to leave and keep someone who wants to stay. Would that sort
    of thing bother you? It doesn't bother me. In fact it seems very fair
    to both the individual and the company assuming the set of people are
    of relatively equal in "value" to the company.

    What most people generally refer to as volunteering for TFSO is someone
    who says to their manager "I want to leave, give me the package" and 
    that person was not previously being considered for TFSO. I'd need more
    then what that article says to believe that's what happened here.
    Especially from the Globe.

    And remember, people do not have to accept TFSO. They can take
    dismissal without the package and try a law suit. Or just quit.

    			Alfred

    My wife got to 'volunteer' for TFSO (I forget if it was the first of
    second round.. the first I think). 
    
    The reason was: Her group was told they needed to lose X people. Back
    in those idealistic days, management was supposed to figure out what
    the work was, what the skills were, and TFSO the prople who didn't fit;
    but, management didn't even have any idea where the group was heading,
    because they were wedged in the middle of a reorg-cum-turf war. So the
    group manager said "The first X who volunteer get it; that seems the
    fairest way to go" 
    
    X was about 10% of the group. Exactly the right number volunteered.
    
    ...tom

    Doesn't bother me.  From what I've seen the process is about as fair as
    you can make it -- meaning inevitably some must get what they didn't
    want.
    
    If you're indispensable, they don't accept your "volunteer."
    
    If you're already targeted, they say they will take it into
    consideration -- it doesn't cost anything and preserves feelings.
    
    If you're in the average pool, no matter what they say it would be
    human nature to take a "volunteer" into consideration if it comes down
    to close choices.  A given manager may or may not be totally honest
    about this, depending on their style.
    
    Recently my customer went through a downsizing based entirely on
    "objective" factors, like 3 year efficiency ratings, and years of
    service.  The end result seemed no more fair or rational than ours.
    
    
    

    I was part of a manufacturing organization when the first TFSO package
    became available.  We were told that ANYONE could volunteer to take the
    package.  The only exceptions would be anyone who was working on a
    critical program and had skills that could not easily be replaced.
    
    The second and subsequent packages were given to those identified via
    "management selection".
    
    					John G.
    

I was part of manufacturing for all the packages so far, no one at ASO was
allowed to volunteer for the 1st package, I was not allowed to volunteer
for the other two we've had here.

that's life!

dave

    
    	At the time of the first TFSO, anyone working for then Bob Glorioso
    	VP of High Performance Systems was given the option to volunteer
    	regardless of function, age, location, peformance etc. It was an 
    	open process. Many folks made use of the oppty to do something
    	different with their careers. 
    
    	Luis

    re:.8
    
    Stories like that are hard to swallow. I'm sure that an employee who
    "volunteered" and had critical skills couldn't just leave with a bunch
    of money in his/her pocket.
    
    Ken

	During the first TFSO every person in our total organization
	was told it was coming and a certain number would be TFSO'd.
	But before the decided who was to be TFSO'd "anyone" who wanted
	to volunteer for the TFSO package could notifiy their manager.

	I'm not sure what happened when someone with high qualifications
	and somewhat critical job asked to be TFSO'd?  My assumption was
	the manager tried to diswade them from leaving Digital.

	Unfortunately Digital did loose a lot of talent during that jit :-(

    The situation in .0 sounds like the SERP to me, not TFSO.
    
    Employees over a certain age were permitted to take early retirement
    with cash and benefits.
    

>    Employees over a certain age were permitted to take early retirement
>    with cash and benefits.
    
And I still think it is bizarre that we've hired back at least one SERPer.
What does "retirement" mean to you?

-steve-

re .11:

I saw the article and the accompanying photos.  They looked too young to SERP.

    I know of a couple people that "volunteered" to be TFSO'd.  Basically
    they talked to their management and said "If you have to let someone
    go pick me"
    
    Dave V

    
    We had one here whose husband was about to take a job in europe and she
    and her family were moving.  Rather than just letting attrition happen
    management gave her the package.
    
    MADNESS!!
    
    -Ed
    

In what is now Components and Perhipherals (then called either DSG or VIPS), the
method was "convince me we don't need you" during the second round. Enough
people volunteered. Obviously anyone with critical skills (including all
engineers, at least all software engineers) would not be able to convince
management that they were not needed.

Rumor also had it that during a later round, one of two people would get tfso;
they gave it to the person who wanted to leave and kept the other.

So depending on what you did and where you were, it was possible to volunteer.

    re: .15
    
    In that case, the amount used to give her the package became proof that
    her management was towing the line.  Proof sometimes results in waste.
    Well, maybe a bit more than "sometimes" ...  ;^)
    
    Steve

    I believe it was in 1989 and I was working for U.S. Area Distribution
    in NRO4.  At the time the more than 600 Salem NH employees were put 
    in TMP = Transition Management Program.  And there were meetings held
    in NRO by USAD stating that 10% of the population had to be reduced but
    at this time they were looking for volunteers to leave the USAD cost
    centers and go into a TMP cost Center.  There was a lot of political
    B.S. and tension was extremly high.  Me and 32 otehr people volunteered
    to look for other jobs - but we had to fill out a form requesting it
    and get approval from our supervisor and that person's suprevisor.
    
    At the time this was basically just - we will help you find another job 
    but rumors were flying about a possible "Buyout".  Several weeks after
    signing the paperwork to be moved into TMP we were offered to chose 1
    of 4 options
    
    1) DECFlex, this was run liek a temp agencie and we would go to work
    within  various Manaufacturing groups and the TMP cost center picked up
    the fees (this later changed several times but was basically a success)
    
    2) Outside education - This was popular but it was scraped after only a
    handful of people were accepted - in this TMP people had to fil out
    extensive paperwork and go before 2 panels to be approved to attend
    GReenfield State College full time for 2 years while still collecting
    your regular salary.
    
    3) Redeployment - you would continue looking for a job full time -
    attending classes on everything from resume writing to sharpening your
    interview skills
    
    4) Last but not least the Buyout - this first round was *very*
    generous.  Automatically 40 weeks pay plue 3 weeks for every year of
    service between 1-10 and 4 weeks of pay for every year after 10 with 
    a max of 104 weeks salary (or something darn close to that)
    
    Personally, with only 3 years in the company the buyout wouldn;t have
    paid my car off so I chose the education one - but I got frozen out so
    with plenty of admin skills I chose DECFlex and loved it!
    
    So yes the first buyout was voluntary but very limited - I believe only
    people in Manufacturing were affected.
    
    All of this is from memory so please go easy on me if I may have
    forgotten some things.
    
    All this is just FYI
    Joyce
    

re: .18

	Good description of what happened Joyce.

	I was also in NRO4 also during this time.

	Glad things worked out well for you.

	Dick 

Well, the stuff around not losing people with skills we need sounds 
rather false when the UK has just dropped the Norhtern UK CSC (see 
uk_digital for further details).  Eitherway I know of at least 1 CNE
and 1 well across the board multi-vendor unix person (with more training
than anyone else who's still here) not to mention somewhere in the 
region of 30 other highly techincally skilled CSC engineers from the 
networking, VMS and programming arenas. 

>>        <<< Note 2798.20 by KERNEL::COFFEYJ "The Uk CSC Unix Girlie." >>>
>>Well, the stuff around not losing people with skills we need sounds 
>>rather false when the UK has just dropped the Norhtern UK CSC (see 

yep, i was dumbfounded by this.  we had some FANTASTIC support for our product
over there, and now there is none (and i heard they were canned because they
were redundant).  i spent some time yesterday trying to find out who will 
support our customers over there... i'm waiting for feedback from above :-)
problem is, one BIG customer knows they are gone, and we have a con-call with
them tomorrow... can't WAIT to see (hear) how we get out of this one...

       Re last couple.. You are forgetting that the folks who are managing
    the downdumping are not usually into business knowledge...they work on
    a "bodycount" basis not unlike the U.S. Army in 'Nam...(Sir we killed
    250,000 of the enemy!! {But...they only HAD 175,000 to begin with??}
    
       I was in one of the groups that was offered the FIRST downsizing
    package back when... As someone previously stated, the package was
    pretty good for those who were in the right timeframe for it... My
    department was ALL given the option of accepting it on the volunteer
    basis. Management at the time had estimated that they'd lose about 20%
    of the group according to what my Manager told us. Our group was split
    in 3 departments, and my department was the first to get the offer. 
    
       When over 70% of the department TOOK the package, management---in a
    state of total, stunned, shock---CANCELLED the offer to the other two
    departments. After a little talking, it became obvious that the other
    two departments would have probably lost about the same percentage. We
    all thought that this was a pretty decent "vote" on our leaders...
    
    
      ..

    The following reply has been contributed by a member of our community
    who wishes to remain anonymous.  If you wish to contact the author by
    mail, please send your message to ROWLET::AINSLEY, specifying the
    conference name and note number. Your message will be forwarded with
    your name attached  unless you request otherwise.

    Bob - Co-moderator DIGITAL

    
    
    
                                     TFSO
    
                                   WIN - WIN
    
    
         A program should be put into place that would allow job swapping 
    in regards to the TFSO program.  
    
         Digital would win and the Employees would win, this would be a big 
    morale booster.  People who want to leave would have the option to 
    receive a financial package to help them in their transition to new 
    employment.  People who want to stay would have a chance to continue 
    their employment within Digital.  The company would have people who are 
    motivated to give their best, helping Digital to improve their image 
    with the customers.    
    
         The program should allow people with the same job codes and 
    ratings to swap. The years of service the volunteering employee has 
    should not be an issue.  People who want to volunteer could give their 
    names to the Personnel people who handle the TFSO programs.  They, in 
    turn, could match the people in transition with the available 
    positions.  
    
         Another option to be considered, positions could be listed in a 
    SWAP category in the JOBS BOOK where people could apply as if it were 
    an open Req.  They would interview with the receiving manager and based 
    on his approval of the candidate the swap would be approved. 
    

    re: Volunteering or "Swapping" ...
    
    I once asked a manager if I could volunteer for TFSO. He said, "Yes,
    put your resignation on my desk, and you can leave. Your TFSO package
    will be two weeks pay."
    
    Face it, there's no reason why Digital should pay any additional money
    to people who *want* to leave.
    
    "Swapping" may sound like an alternative, but it would be open to abuse
    and possible EEO litigation. People could claim that they were coerced,
    kickbacks could be offered/solicitied, all sorts of nasty problems.
    
    The current system of TFSO may seem ponderous and misguided, but it
    *does* take several levels of management participation, and it's never
    going to be perfect or even moderately equitable. That's life.
    
    Geoff

    
>    Face it, there's no reason why Digital should pay any additional money
>    to people who *want* to leave.
    
    Digital ... the large corporate entity no.  But individual managers
    trying to get a job done .. absolutely yes ... they want to keep as
    many people as they can ... volunteers saves them from tapping someone
    else (sometimes).
    
    True story from DG.  Friend goes to her manager to resign so she can go
    to grad school.  The manager tells her to reschedule the meeting for
    Monday ... she asks why ... he politely says get lost.  Monday DG
    announces another round of layoffs and she got "picked" to be layed
    off.  She got more bucks and he saved a head (the person previously
    picked for death).
    
    Greg
    
                                                                     

    re .23: Exactly what the Workers' Council is organizing here in
    Germany.
    
    I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work.