Conference 7.286::digital

    Talk to personnel and ask them for your options. You could probably
    also talk to a lawyer. You better update your resume. I'd probably
    start looking for a new job both inside and outside the company.
    
    			Alfred

    I would think that the basenoter would at least be given the
    current TFSO pkg - if push comes to shove; also, if the 
    interstate xfer is closer to where better employment lies,
    it may facilitate your job-search by remaining employed (even
    if the job is 10 years stale) just to keep the cash flow, and
    working status while looking. (maybe the new site *is* planning
    to give TFSO too.) If the interstate xfer is not good for anything, 
    I would decline it, and stick to pushing for TFSO at your current 
    site.
    
    Also, I agree with .1;  and personnel should be given the name of
    your lawyer.
    
    /Bob

re: basenote

>   My Manager insisted I take personal vacation time, while trying to secure
>   a new position.

Well, there's certainly no policy which dictates this. (Nor, is there one
constraining it, of course.) Why does your management choose to be so hardnosed
about this?

-Jack

	There is a big difference in the USA between getting fired (or layed
	off, or "terminated with involunatry methodlogy," or whatever0 and
	quitting. If you quit for what the government considers to be an
	insufficient reason, you will not receive unemployment compensation.
	If you are fired without sufficient cause, you are entitled to
	unemployment payments.

	A lawyer would know much better than I the details of these laws, so
	I would echo the previous sentiments of contacting a lawyer before
	you do anything. 

	Roy

    I'd certainly like to hear the basis of your manager's insistence on
    you taking personal vacation, while the company does not have anything
    for you to do.

    re: making you take vacation .,.
    
    Indeed there *is* sufficient precedent to say that management *can*
    force you to take vacation on a schedule of their choosing. Plants
    which have regular shutdowns or refits do this all the time, forcing
    workers to use vacation hours while the plant is idle.
    
    However, it is against state and federal laws to make a worker expend
    vacation *and* report for work at the same time. For exempt labor, if
    you're in the office during normal working hours, you are "on the
    clock" in the legal sense.
    
    It's not clear from the base note whether or not you wish to remain at
    Digital. If it is your intention to try and stay, then it is up to you
    to make the sacrifices necessary to convince managment to keep you. If
    you feel that there is no place left for you at Digital, then you need
    to make sure that the separation is made to your advantage. That means
    do *not* resign under any circumstances. The onus is on the company to
    terminate your employment and give you an equitable severance. If you
    do not receive this, you should consult a lawyer. 
    
    Best of luck in your efforts.
    
    

    There are other precedents as well, however, where you were not
    required to use personal vacation time while looking for a job inside
    or outside of Digital.  Indeed, when groups were disbanded, people were
    often allowed months to find other jobs.  Senior executives, as recent
    history attests, left long after the rumor mill had them gone.
    
    Seems to me that Personnel is the best bet;  if not at the local level,
    then at corporate.

Do not use your vacation time for looking for a job!
    Vacation time is your time. You earned it.

You are an employee.
    Come to work, if you have no work use the time to look for a job.
The company can offer you another job and if you refuse I believe you
    can be terminated legally but I've not seen it done.
Do not resign.
         If the company lets you go you will have other options.
         If you resign you will have none.

    Re: .0
    
    Ethics.  Isn't this what Win Hindale's office is supposed to deal with
    both internally and externally.  I have heard BP and other mouth
    "Ethical/legal/..." nad "do the right thing" enough times to make me a
    little ill.  Perhaps it's time to call them on it.
    

    Re: .0
    
      Another avenue to consider is your comment about recently having
    accepted a transfer to your current location.   Unless there was 
    some discussion that this was to be temporary, there is probably
    an implied contract from Digital (ie: a company can't relocate you
    and then fire you two weeks later)   I vaguely remember hearing that
    it was an implied 2 year contract with relocation.
    
      Again, I suggest talking to a lawyer ASAP.  
    
      					DanF
    
    
    PS.  Also consider that material changes in the location or nature
    	of a job can be suitable grounds for quitting but receiving
    	unemployment.  My brother won a nasty one with a former employer
    	on this point.
    

    Call John Buckley, who works for Win Hindle. This seems to be precisely
    the sort of "creative management" the Ethics Office is tasked with
    resolving. Both Bob Palmer and the Ethics Book state as Principle #1:
    'DEC will treat all employees fairly, ethically, and consistently.'
    Sounds like your manager is 0 for 3.
    
    Take my word for it; you are not the only employee who has run up
    against this sort of thing.
    
    Call John.
                               

re .1
	I've talked to one HR rep, and the options are basically move or leave,
I will be talking to other HR people to see if I can get a different slant on
things. I have been trying for several other positions, and I believe that my
current manager has been spreading the word that I am difficult to manage.
There is a major project on that I know I can add value to, but 3 levels of
management (Doesn't that tell you something?) will not return my calls or mail.

I have repeatedly been offered positions outside of the company, at higher
salaries etc, in fact most are with organizations that find Digital intolerable
as a business partner, and want to buffer themselves from it. I'd prefer to fix
that from the inside rather than the outside.

re .2

The interstate transfer is not an option, it is a condition. I am now away from
my family, at my own expense, and look like being so for Xmas (as I was for
last Xmas because of work commitments...)

re .4

I am not U.S. based, and the issue of unemployment benefits is neither here nor
there. I can be employed before my feet hit the pavement, and I haven't even
tried yet. I would prefer to remain at Digital, and add significant value in
areas that I am particularly talented, rather than be wasted and
under-utilized.

re .8 
	"Not using Vacation time" Not an option any more. I have now used up my
vacation time. 

re .9/.11
	
	Indeed, Win may be the next step. This would of course, alienate me
from my manager. Previous experience has been that using the Open Door Policy,
has not gotten fair reaction from the people that you are working around". 
Part of the perception that I am "difficult to manage" is in fact that above
all else I value my professional ethics and obligations to the Customer(s).

re .10

	The relocation was in fact a repatriation from a relocation.
    

    Re:-1..."Alienate me from my manager" ??!!  Seems to be a rather
    ridiculous worry at this point does it not?  
    
    Send Win a "hard copy" confidential letter via express mail (whatever
    form you have there) and follow it with a phone call at a date and time
    specified in the letter.  I have personally dealt with Win Hindle on
    several occasions in the recent past and have found him to be open
    minded, very constructive and helpful....and approachable.
    
    In the call, not in the letter, advance your experience about finding
    local employment.  Make no supposition about "your manager spreading
    the word", just ask him to find out why you cannot get interviews.  I 
    can almost guarantee that a call from Win will get you the interviews or
    result in action against anyone responsible for unethical activity.
    
    Good Luck
      

    re: the base note and followup reply
    
    ARE YOU NUTS???????????????????????????  (Yes, shouting indended!)
    
    Let me get this straight.  You have 3 layers of DEC management who
    won't return your calls, your own manager is blackballing you across
    the company, you have offers for a better job and more money from other
    places, right?
    
    Well, why in the holy blue blazes do you want to stay with DEC?  And,
    to top it off, you are using your own vacation time to find another DEC
    job??????
    
    DEC doesn't want you that bad and you can get better working conditions
    somewhere else - I say, go for it!
    
    - Greg Scott
    (The one in Minnesota)

        The attached is posted on behalf of the author of the topic note:
        
        re .14
        
        Am I nuts? I may well be, but that is not the issue at hand. The
        issue is the ethics of how I have been treated, and whether this
        sort of thing should be allowed to occur at all in Digital. I am
        beyond caring whether I come out of this a DEC employee or not, I
        will land on my feet, and already have contract offers that will
        increase my income several fold. Income is not an issue, I am
        happy with my lifestyle. It is now down to testing to see just how
        employee-caring the system can be...
         
        

    re .14
    
    If you really want to challenge the ethics then come out of the
    shadows, identify yourself, and challenge the system out in the open. 
    If you already have lots of job offers for more money, you have nothing
    to lose and your pride and self respect to gain.
    
    - Greg

    Did you talk to John Buckley? This situation is precisely why he has a
    job -- to resolve it fairly.
    
    

    
    Re: .16
    
    GREAT personal_name!
    
    

    Did John Buckley send YOU a message?  A couple of weeks back I mailed
    him your base note, with full instructions on how to reach you via
    the moderators, and encouragement to do so.
    
    Note that John Buckley (Ethics Office ops mgr) specifically asked me
    in October to provide him with any information I had on recent ethics 
    concerns by employees, so I've been doing so.  I'd really like to 
    know if he followed up on any of it.
    
    		Thanks,
    		Larry

    People, it is time to identify myself as the author of .0. Many of you
    will know me from my notes in this and other conferences.

    As suggested, in some of the replies, I took the issue up with the
    corporate ethics office. After almost three months of deliberation, the
    APA HR Office to whom this issue had been delegated finally came back
    to me, and said that nothing unethical had been done. I won't go into
    the whys and wherefores. 

    I have had it, I am leaving. My resignation has just been submitted,
    and who knows how long access to the net will remain. I feel let down,
    but I won't go into a diatribe on the vagaries of this organization.
    That has been said too many times already in this and other forums and
    still has no effect. Besides which, my good advice will now be charged
    for. 
    
    I should be contactable at quodling@decus.com.au in a few days.

         Peter Quodling
    	Badge 82329
    	15 year veteran.

    	I'll miss you from the notews files.
    
    	Dave

      Peter,

      You'll be missed.  For what it's worth ... perhaps some of your 
      good ideas will someday bear fruit in someone else's efforts. 
      The very best to you wherever you go from here. 

      Terry

    
    Here's a ME, TOO, Peter.  Had friends in similar situations and each
    one was much the better for leaving.  Will miss your notes/humor.
    
    					Brent

    Just when, you thought you could get rid of me. My first EX-DEC job is
    you guessed it, consulting to DEC on a project... Will be at this
    address for about a week, failing that quodling@decus.org.au
    
    Q (Not looking back)
    

    Best news I've seen all day...  'Course I just got up, but still... :-)
    

    Well, hell!  We could have done with missing you a bit longer than THAT
    Peter!  Barely had time for a cuppa.

    re .-1
    
    You should know better than keeping me away from "my" computers...
    
    Besides which, now I am directly responsible for my own cash flow and
    well being, so every day that I don't work is a day that I am not
    making money. Changes ones perspective on work a little.
    
    Peter Q.

    I love watching the capitalists bud in the Spring!  Welcome back,
    Peter.
    
    						Tex

    In Peter's case, the capitalists are budding in the Fall... :-)
    

    
    should Peter be in the "Ex-Digital" way of working conference?
    
    
    Gary