Conference 7.286::digital

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	I am fully convinced that the phone situation that exists within
	Digital is contributing to lost revenue.  The few times a year
        which I call a friend at IBM, voice mail always provides enough
        information to either BEEP her or reach a person.  I have no
        doubt that this contributes to Customer Satisfaction.

	Linda

    
    re: .2
    
    Yeah, but IBM has barely begun *its* downsizing.  Wait a year
    and see if that's still the case.  Also, this really comes
    down to attitude.  I don't find voice mail particularly annoying
    if someone returns my call; i.e., that they check it.  I check
    mine regularly from wherever I am (many times at my own expense)
    and always try to return calls quickly.
    
    Glenn

    If you live in the U.S. and don't have an answering machine, be ready
    to answer the phone *every* *8* *minutes* *every* *night* between 6:00 
    and 8:45pm. Each call will be from a salesperson; some are 'demon dialers,'
    which lock your phone into busy mode until you have let the damn thing
    play the entire recorded sales pitch. My asnwering machine, however,
    cuts off all calls after 3 minutes.
    
    

     Now days, the answering machine is being used more as a call screener/
    protection device then a true store-and-forward device. If you
    can't/won't/don't want to speak to someone, just turn on your machine.
    Also, If you don't want someone with an urgent problem making it your
    problem, get a machine.
    
    Personally, I use one at home to avoid the constant calling of
    sales type people. At work, however, I still answer them the old
    fashioned way, one at a time, and always before the third ring. (I have
    to, it forwards on after 3 rings :^))  I seem to get better results
    from vaxmail any more. Or better yet, a voicemail followed up by a
    vaxmail.
    
    	It's no excuse, I know. But after all, do you just want to talk, or
    do you want to get something done. :^)
    
    
    jim
    

    .0
    
    hi, it is LUNCH TIME now in the US, most of DECeees are down in the
    cafeteria right now muching food so they can have energy for the rest
    of the day. 
    
    hope this helps.
    \nasser 
    
    
    

>>  to answer the phone *every* *8* *minutes* *every* *night* between 6:00 
>>  and 8:45pm. Each call will be from a salesperson; some are 'demon dialers,'

You are lucky its only until 8:45 pm.  They go much later at our house,
some times until after 10 pm.

Yesterday I picked up someone else's phone since that person had jury duty
and it turned out to be an engineering manager who was trying to get some
documentation for some sales guys trying to land an account with a major
brewery.  They had made about 25 phone calls before getting ahold of us.
This is a 1/4 million dollar order that is on the line.  I'm glad I was
here to pick up the phone.  

I don't care if it wasn't my job to answer the other guys phone.  I did it,
I was able to help and hopefully we will get the order.  :-)

Judy

    speaking of phones and such, i hear now adays they have these machines
    (may be new phones?) where you can see the phone number of the person 
    calling you !

    it will be nice to have one of these connected to your phone , this
    way you'll know who is calling you before you answer and if it
    someone you dont want to talk to, you dont have to pick up the phone!

    i think this is neat idea!

    i think DECeees in sales and marketing and big managers should have
    this thing added to there phones it is very valuable because if a
    customer calls you you can write his or her phone number down without
    asking them for it, this way if you lose the connection or something
    like that you can call them back and continue to work on that million
    dollar deal , plus it shows the customer you are keen and interested 
    if you call them back to continue the conversion.

    just an idea i thought i bring it up since the subject is on phones
    and related.


    \nasser

    Nasser, a bunch of them already have them installed !
    
    Got the message.

    If someone (where I work anyway) uses Voicemail, and indicates "If you
    want to talk to my secretary, press zero" at the end of the message,
    the person to which the phone bounces is NOT supposed to have Voicemail
    engaged during working hours. When going to lunch, someone else is
    supposed to be handling the phones for them (a real person, not a
    machine).
    
    That's the way it is supposed to work anyway, and I don't know that it
    happens any differently. I do know that there are far fewer secretaries
    per employee than in previous times, and the days when one manager had
    his/her own secretary all to themselves seem numbered. Some people do
    still have their very own assistants, but not as many as before. Most
    assistants/secretaries I know may spend most of their time taking care
    of the bigboss, but are also designated as the secretary for several
    other individuals.
    
    /se
    

    	Our facility's voicemail can be set to call a number when a message
    is waiting. I use this to trigger my beeper. A greeting telling your
    caller that you will be notified of a pending message and how to reach
    you via Email can go a long way to avoid the impression of a black
    hole.
    
    	A needed feature I have not seen on voicemail and PBX combinations
    is "call waiting". It would be adventageous to respond to a new call
    in person rather than hanging up and having to check for newly arrived
    calls while you were using your phone.
    
    	Also, ask in your message that the caller leave a number and best
    time to call back. Too often I hear messages that indicate the party
    will call later with no current number nor ETA for the following call.
    
    Phil

    re.6 no it doesn't help
    re.0 It infuriates me like it does you.I am constantly amazed when I
    actually get to talk to anybody in the USA.I wish I had a videophone
    because the tone of voice indicates equal amazement-like its a huge
    surprise to actually talk to another human on a phone.
    I think voicemail and answering is wonderful-if only it is used
    responsibly.The overriding impression left is that phone calls are not
    returned as reliably as expected.This could be due to a cultural abuse
    of phones which is a natural part in the cycle-since the US has
    experinced a greater use of phones for longer than Europe,it may be
    only a matter of time before we get the same disease.In Europe,you don't
    expect anybody more senior than you to call back but amongst peers it
    is pretty reliable.
                                                 

    The Final sign of ARMAGEDDON
    
    
    
    
    	I call it VOICE MAIL
    
    
    
    	

    Voicemail is an invaluable tool only if the recipient of a voicemail
    message gets back to the caller promptly...this includes both Managers 
    and Secretaries.  In these times, without voicemail, there certainly 
    would be a lot more "important" calls lost!
    

I "desubscribed" from voicemail - horrible system.  The
only thing worse is those computer-driven touchtone menu
systems ("if you'd like to kill the person who invented
this, press 9 now").

No, I don't have a job where I expect calls from outside DEC.
Virtually all my incoming calls are internal.  If I'm not there,
send me mail instead.  Hell, just send me mail in the first place.

    like it or not, it has reduced our group's need for another secretary,
    whose main task would be to answer phones.
    
    Mark

    There are still places you can call and get a real person.  Our office 
    does not have voicemail and I really don't see us getting it in the
    near future.  Unlike a previous noter had said we are not shocked when
    we "answer" the phone and get a real voice (actually we kinda expect it)
    instead we chuckle when the voice on the other side of the line says...	
    "You mean you don't have voicemail?".  I like not having voicemail, our
    customers know when they call that even if they don't get the person
    they called for they will get a warm voice that in most cases will
    listen to them, possibly solve their problem/request and assure them
    that someone will return their call.  There have been many, many
    instances that I have called Digital internally and have gotten so many
    recordings and pressed "0" for immediate assistance so many times and
    still not gotten a real person........I cannot begin to imagine what
    our customers think or how much business we have lost because for this. 
    
    I know as a consumer, when I need service or want to purchase something
    I want to talk to a person NOW.......and when I dial my telephone and
    get a recording at Bubba's Appliance Repair,  rarely will I leave a
    message.  Usually, those that answer their phones get my business.
    
    See Ya, 
    
    Nancy
     

Without voice mail, customers would have to repeatedly call if I was away from
my desk or already on the phone.  A "call waiting" feature would be helpful.

A problem here is that there is no indication, such as a blinking light, that
you have new messages.  You have to pick up your phone and hear a "beeping" dial
tone to see if you have a message!  This means that every time you return to
your office, even for a minute, you have to pick up the phone and listen.

I'd much rather get someone's answering machine or voice mail instead of
repeatedly trying to call them and get a busy signal or no answer.

Paul

    Another issue is the flavor of voice mail and it's interaction with the
    PBX.
    
    The Acton phone switch (Acton, Littleton, etc.) had the "wonderful"
    feature that there is no visual indication that you have voice mail
    (unless you get the expensive multi-line phone that secretarys get).
    
    You have to pick up the phone and notice the interrupted dial tone
    signal.  If you just answer calls you don't ever hear a dial tone. Thus 
    you won't know you have voice mail unless you *PICK UP THE PHONE* to
    originate a call or to explicitly to check voice mail.
    
    Getting a "message waiting" feature would require replacing the line
    cards in the PBX with more expensive ones.  Most of the phones already
    have the light (it's under the "link" button).
    
    The system does not have a way to page you (if you carry a beeper) [our
    Colorado Springs system does have this feature].  It can't send you
    e-mail either.
    
    The Acton voice mail system does know the difference between "internal"
    and "external" calls, but anything outside your phone switch is
    considered "external".
    
    The security gods have decreed that we can't put an email address in
    our external greeting -- so no help here for far-flung internal callers
    (e.g. Maynard :-).  [I suppose it would be OK to include my Internet
    address on the external greeting since that's on my business card but
    that address is not usable by plain VMSMAIL.]
    
    Steveg
    glaser@lkg.dec.com

    i just like to point the attention of DECeees that we also have 
    phone systems on VMS , just do $phone to the user id of the
    DECeee you want to converse with and you can have interactive
    conversation with him or her but using the key board, this way
    if the phone is busy use $phone instead, the screen splits into 2 half,
    you write on the top, the other DECeee writes on the bottom, real time
    process.  it is almost as good as phone conversation, one advantage
    is that you dont get to mingle with these voice mail systems,
    if the DECeee is at his or disk then they'll answer it by typing
    $phone on their screen and the fun begins.

    try it, you'll like it.

    hope this helps.

    \nasser

    
    note 2681.12
    
    	I didn't know that Voicemail was hierarchical.
    
    ems

	And the @#$%^&*()_)(*&^%#$%^& things assume you have touch-tone
	phone.

	It really annoys me when I look down at my dial phone.

	Heather

    This also brings up the other much-abused communications tool (already
    mentioned) - email.  How many times have you sent a message to someone
    requesting some information or help, and not even gotten back a short
    reply of "Sorry, I can't help you".  Common courtesy seems to often be
    lacking in this area also.  email is, IMHO, the best way to at least
    start off communications with someone, because it doesn't intrude on
    what the person is doing at that moment.  It gives the person time
    think about what needs to be done prior to having to do it, and is a
    good way to lead into that phone call (at a previously set up time)
    that will provide the bulk of the communications.
    
    Re: a couple - voice mail systems and phones vary - everyone I've had
    has had a message light and a pushbutton that ties directly to the
    voice mail system.

    In our facility, the voicemail system is technically set up to ensure
    that, if a caller presses zero for immediate assistance, the call will
    not just go to another extension's voicemail.  That is, secretary's
    phone extensions are not allowed to have voicemail.  The voicemails of
    people within the group are set up to go to the secretary's extension
    if the caller presses zero, and the secretary (or someone in his/her
    place) must answer or else the phone will just ring off the hook.
    
    Problem is, most secretary's have worked around this by putting a 
    second phone on their desk.  Their group forwards to their first 
    phone.  If they don't answer their first phone in 3 rings, then their
    first phone forwards to their second phone, and on their second
    phone they have an answering machine (not voicemail, just a physical
    answering machine) sitting there to take messages.  
    
      

Voicemail _STINKS_


  8 digit or longer password to get hear your messages.
        What do they think these phones are used for US/Soviet 
	nuclear emergencies!

  Try changing your password. 
	You enter your # and find out that it is expiring.
	You enter your new # 
	You enter your new # to confirm.
	You enter you old # again to make sure that it is _reallY_ you.
	 It sure is convenient.

  Try not changing it when it expires. (Guess what happens here.)
        
  No visible indication of when a message is waiting or if
   one arrives while you are on the phone.
  
 One advantage, it is so inconvenient that I make every effort to 
answer my phone so that I don't have to use it!

    oh, that's no problem.  I never change the password.  When it expires,
    I call up the voicemail people and they give me a new one.  :-)
    
    Mark

    
    ref. hardtime using voice mail and related.

    this discussion makes one miss the good old days where one used to
    tie their letter to the toe of the pigeon and let it fly to the
    destination, when the pigeon gets to the receiver it waits there
    in the pigeon little house over the roof for the receiver to come up and
    remove the letter off its leg and then it fly back to the owner.

    a simple, natural , and no fuss, no mess way of communications, and NO
    passwords needed !!

    indeed, we say, modern technology have been abused by many, we should 
    use it to make life easier for us , our children , loved ones, family and 
    neighbors, but NOT to complicate our lives and give us more worry 
    and pain by using it!

    keep it simple . is, and will always be the motto i stick to.
    
    \nasser 

    Machines were SUPPOSEDLY invented to assist us humans, not replace.

    As a society, we have decided (new business law) that machines can
    do a better job then a warm body.. We have decided, as a society, that
    we will remove warm bodies from our businesses and replace them with
    machines... To save money.. We all (at least in the USA) have to live
    with our decisions... We made the bed, now we have to lie in it!

    There are just not enough warm bodies left to pick up every call that
    comes in, live! Some will have to fall through to a machine.

    YES, there are abuses. BUT, for the most part, there just are to many
    calls and not enough people to take 'em all "live".

    VAXmail isn't any better, because if you're on vacation, the call
    doesn't forward to anyone else, at all. At least with voicemail, you
    can enter different messages, indicating your status and pointing to
    another number to call "if it is necessary to talk with someone about
    the problem/issue"...
    
    Bob
    

re .27

Nassar - Are you saying that we should bring back the Digital Turkey at
Christmas time?  We could use it to send messages and then cook it when it
arrived at its destination.

Then again, turkeys don't fly that well...

:-)

	Well, my husband is a CUSTOMER and he can not tell who
        still works at Digital versus who just has phone mail.
        Must have been a time when voicemail was left on
        after a person got TSFO'd.

        So, whether we think automation is the correct way to go,
        the customers are having trouble reaching people who
        will call back.  Hence my initial statement about our
        phone protocol causing us to lose revenue.

	Linda

    .28 Bob, there is a feature in VAXmail called mail-watch where you can
    set up an auto reply informing incoming mail, that you're on vacation,
    attending a seminar, etc.  This feature has a memory and will only
    repond to the author of an incoming message once.  Unlike A1, were each
    individual message receives an auto-reply.
    
    Julie
    

As Dave Porter did, I got voicemail removed from my phone.  (Or should I say
they removed from my phone due to, uh, lack of use)  If you want to contact
me, send me mail. If you want an answer quickly, send me mail until I do
reply.  (As one who gets upwards of 200+ messages a day, I have barely enough
time to scan, delete, and answer a small percentage of them.  If you send mail
repeated, your mail will eventually get raised to the queue to be dealt with).

When I had voicemail, 19 out of 20 messages were not mine (If anyone know where
the Matt Thomas that used to be in MKO is, let me know -- I'd like to, uh, oh
never mind).  The other message was, I'll call back.  Argg!

If phone messages are not being returned, it's probably the fault of the person
who has the voice mail account, not the technology or person that is taking
messages for him/her.

Paul

The Olde Days:

Call someone with a technical query. They'll research and call back with the
answer later. Go out on customer call. While out, the call-back occurs.
Secretary has a message pad with 2 or 3 lines on it - answer to query would take
several minutes of tech-talk - secretary checks the "call-back" box (or worse,
attempts to squeeze an approximation of the message into 2 or 3 lines). Get back
from customer call. Get message slip. Call - no answer/busy/get secretary. Now
_you_ leave a slip. Repeat ad-nauseam - maybe several days worth of ad-nauseam.
Maybe the caller works after the office closes and is best able to respond
after-hours. Too bad the information not being moved is necessary to get revenue
into the company NOW rather than a week from now (or never - it's competitive
out there - and deadly when info doesn't get moved).

God-forbid a customer should call 1 minute before opening or 1 minute after
closing - they don't necessarily get their best work done during their open
hours either.

We've all been brain-washed in this culture by the novelty of the phone - that
if it rings it's the MOST IMPORTANT thing to deal with RIGHT NOW. And of course
we all know that's garbage - a little of it is important; most of it isn't -
it's only a message delivery system with (until recently) no return address on
the message to see if you even want to receive it. And until a few years ago you
could not even defer delivery until you were in a position to have time to
receive it. We've been conditioned to be insulted if we don't get an answer when
we call - while we ourselves feel abused when we do answer and get some
sales-pitch at dinner-time - and it's just a matter of cultural adaptation to a
technology that until recently was brain-numbingly primitive.

The complaint in .0 is about BADLY MANAGED voicemail, with replies abetted by a
certain flavor of technophobia. Some folks can't and never will like a
mechanical answerer. I guess they don't mind 3 line phone-slips going around for
the 4th time with an indeciperable scrawl purporting to be a message from
someone who has badly-needed information - or have customers who are not on the
network. I doubt the technophobes can ever be pleased - but is there no answer
for the bad management? That really costs us in a lot of ways - and in my
office's case, cost us the presence of a voicemail system (because the manager
who would have approved it got bounced a few times too often to secretarial
backups who themselves were bouncing their calls to voicemail).

Swimming against the Tide in this Note ...
Norm

    You know what annoys me is people who DON'T have VOICEMAIL. when I call
    somebody to give information the conversation goes like this if I don'r
    reach the person I'm trying to call and instead get a human:
    
    Me: Is Joe Blow in the office I have some information for him.
    Person: No
    Me: Please forward me to his voicemail
    Person: Joe Blow doesn't have voicemail
    Me: Never mind he can try call me again if he wants to. Just tell him
        I called.
    
    I'm then annoyed because it's wasted my time. Usually the information
    people are asking me for doesn't fit on a 3 line message pad and I've
    had too many experiences of my information being garbled by the note
    taker.
    
    So if I get a human I didn't call I'm not impressed.
    
    I like VOICEMAIL to have a "0" feature so that if I 'm calling and
    don't really care who in a group I talk to I can get the human (who I
    now expect to answer) to find me someone to talk to.
    
    Dave

    re .34, .35
    
    Well, if you're calling me to have a techie talk, and I'm not
    there, then for heaven's sake show some sense and don't try
    and compress it onto a pink message slip (should our group
    secretary answer the phone on my behalf, which she does
    out of the kindness of her heart).   Send mail with the
    full details.
    
    What's wrong with the LKG voicemail system?
    
    1.  No indication of pending messages
    2.  Absolute requirement to have 8 (or is that 10?) digit passwords
    3.  Passwords that time out more frequently than I use the system
    4.  Stupid political restriction on stating my mail address in my greeting
    
    
    

    	Another non-user-friendly non-feature is that I cannot save and
    restore a default greeting if I change it to indicate I'm away. The
    entire thing must be re-recorded. I'm just thankful I'm not required
    to change the message daily as to my availability as some groups are.
    
    Phil

    RE.: .37
    
    Then you've got the wrong voicemail system. Here in Colorado, we have a
    system (AT&T) where you can store many greetings (i.e. everyday,
    holiday, vacation, etc..). These greetings can be set for day, night or
    holiday use....
    
    Great system.. Can't do without it!
    
    Bob
    

    I don't normally write here, but I have to challenge .33's assertion
    that non-returned phone calls are "probably the fault of the person who
    has the voice mail account". Actually, it may be true, but unless the
    voice mail systems are improved enough to be usable by non-phone-centric
    people, we'll never know. Until then, I'll be wryly reminded of how
    people who post long notes are pilloried for the annoyance that's really
    the fault of a Notes mis-feature.
    
    The VM systems in common use in Digital are utterly broken in a
    fundamental way. And so annoying to use, ASIDE from the basic
    malfunction, as to be ineffective.
    
    imho, naturally
    
    Chuck

    You can't reach a live human from in the US either.  I suspect many
    people in the field have the same kind of horror stories:
    
    You can't even get a live human in the support organizations - call a
    CSC, get PUT ON HOLD TO WAIT FOR THE CALL SCREENER TO DESCRIBE THE
    PROBLEM TO!  I had a conversation with one of these folks one day after
    being on hold for over 7 minutes.  He admitted that on some days the
    delay exceeded 20 minutes.  When I asked how the customers felt about
    this I was told "Well, the new ones don't know any better!  The old
    ones don't like it much..."
    
    Then wait for someone to call back eventually, get your voicemail
    because you're on the phone trying to convince the customer you don't
    have an answer for not to go totally ballistic.  Repeat.
    
    As far as VAXphone - you've got to be kidding.  Virtually every time
    I've tried to use this to get to someone "out East" I'm told that the
    object is unknown at the other end.  I presume this means people are
    turning off the phone object so they don't get "interrupted."
    
    After repeatedly attempting to contact the person at/in Spitbrook or
    Nashua or whatever whose name and phone number we were given by a
    product manager, I finally called the security desk (or some main
    number).  When the human answered I was told that the phones in the
    facility were all forwarded to a central answering machine because
    otherwise the ringing would "bother the engineering people".  The
    phones in the cubicles/offices do not ring, they just have a light that
    indicates a call was incoming.  We left 3 messages, never got a call
    back.
    
    I had a project manager once (not too long ago) that needed some
    information and attempted to contact a product manager (do we still
    have those?).  She called DAILY for 3 straight weeks.  Without
    exception she was told by a secretary the product manager was "in a
    meeting", "out of the office", or "on the phone".  In three weeks, she
    got exactly 2 return calls, one after hours when she was gone, the
    other while she was on the phone.  I think the customer chose some
    other vendor's product...
    
    Has the company just killed off so many people that the ones that are
    left simply no longer have time to communicate with other people in
    anything even remotely close to a timely manner?  Ah, well, I'm out of
    here for 3 weeks with no phone, much less voicemail!

I am very glad to have voicemail, not because I don't answer my phone (I do
when I'm in my office) but because it helps me get clear messages for those
times I'm not in (or have gone to get coffee, etc.)  Previously, my calls
would get forwarded to a secretary's phone which might or might not get
answered (our department doesn't have enough secretaries to handle phone
answering on top of everything else they do) and would often lead to an
answering machine, which might not get looked at until the next day.

The system we have DOES allow multiple greetings to be recorded (5), with
three of them selected for day, off-hour and holidays.  I can easily switch
in one that says I'm out for the day, the week or whatever.  The messages
are clear, I can replay them to catch names and numbers, I can file them
(though I don't use this feature).  Our system doesn't have a visual 
indication that a message has arrived, but I've found it's an easy habit
to just pick up the receiver to listen for the "stutter dial tone" that
is the message signal.

I also like calling people who have voicemail, rather than forwarding to
a secretary, as it means I can leave long and detailed messages that I know
won't get scrambled.  It tends to end telephone tag.

For those who can send me e-mail, I prefer it, but I consider voicemail
an essential tool that allows me to be responsive to others.

				Steve

    
    There's no doubt about it, this is clearly a problem with the
    technology.  I remember when working as a bank clerk many years ago,
    the installation of a computers instanty absolved us from all from
    errors.  We had this non-human pile of circuits to blame for our errors
    and omissions.   The notion of "computer error" was born and life
    became a tad easier.  Except for customers.
    
    Then customers bought PCs, became smarter and realized that the reason
    their paycheck had been placed in Fred Bloggs numbered Swiss account
    and the repo man was jimmying his way into their car was nothing to do
    with computers, but the dolts who fed data to it.
    
    Several iterations of new technology later and we still have this
    phenomenon.  I still hear people saying "I never got your e-mail..."
    when we know that this is a pretty rare occurence.  The norm is to get
    every piece of e-mail created in the world that day.  Humans blaming
    the technology for their failings in implementing it correctly!  
    
    However, it this point, I think its JUSTIFIABLE to blame the
    technology.  How come the *designers* have not LEARNED that humans will
    screwup, lie, cheat and blame the system to avoid doing the work
    associated with it?
    
    For example, we all have a personal password for our voicemail
    so only we can access it.   Let's say we access it, read our messages
    and ignore a few. Why can't the voicemail system automatically redial
    the originator of the message and say tinnily:
    
    	"Fred Bloggs just listened to your message.  If he says he didn't
    	 he's a lying schmuck.  Give him a few days to roast and then
         phone him again quoting this 103645729 receipt code. Have a better
         one"
    
    I call this "registered voicemail".  If anyone wants to commercialize
    the concept, get your voicemail to phone my voicemail and we'll do
    lunch.   I may even reply.
    
    %-)
    
    Colin
 

Who determines which sites use which voice mail system?  At OFO in Burlington,
the system was easy to use, allowed multiple greetings that could be stored and
changed, and notified you with a blinking light when you had messages.  I don't
know what system it was but it ran on a VAX 4000 in the building.

At both OGO in Stow and DSG in Westford, we have Meridian Mail which is at least
one generation farther back in voice mail evolution.

Paul

    But also remember, Paul, that in OFO we were forced to use long
    passwords that expired, I believe, every 30 or 60 days.  I remember
    asking about this in the VoiceMail training that we had.  The reason, I
    was told, for the long passwords and frequent expiration, was that the
    VoiceMail system ran on a VAX and that Digital has firm policies about
    password lengths and expiration dates for accounts on VAX/OpenVMS
    systems.  Therefore, your VoiceMail account was no different than an
    OpenVMS account and therefore applied the same strict rules and regulations.
    
    
    I gave up trying to find the logic in this...
    

30 day /15 character passwords are required only for priv'd accounts.

I can;t for the life of me imaginge why a voicemail account would need priv's

dave

    	I saw a segment on the news the other day about everyone would soon
    ( 2 to 3 years ) have personal phones that are small enough to clip on
    your belt. The phone number would or could be your social security
    number.

	Re. .46

	> The phone number would or could be your social security number.

	So that you can broadcast your SSN to the whole world. Right!

        .-1

    > The phone number would or could be your social security number.

    i just realized not so long ago that the SS number shows if you are
    a born here American or an immigrant ! i did not know that before,
    but it looks that first 3 digits of some one who immigrated to the US from
    outside are different from those who did not. this way by looking
    at someone's SS you can find something about them by just noting
    that their SS number is different. i will not be surprised even if
    the number can be decoded to show what country the dude immigrated
    from to.

    just an observation i thought was interesting. 

    \bye
    \nasser
    ps. please note we have a power down here in ZKO this weekend, so
    if you don't hear from me meanwhile you'll know why.

    I think the notion of giving a VAXmail-style EMail address for
    internally-originated calls, and an Internet-style EMail address, for
    externally-originated calls is just dynamite.  I am embarrassed that I
    didn't think of it myself!! :-)  My Meridian-style voicemail in MSO has
    facilities, I believe, to put out two different greetings:  an
    "Internal" and an "External" one.  Now since I worked hard to hack thru
    the bureaucracy to have created, and to have insisted that the printers
    put on my new business cards, my new Internet-style, "Corporately
    Kosher" EMail name:
    
    dan.kalikow@mso.mts.dec.com 
    
    I would like to know "where it is written" that this eminently sensible
    melding of two EComms worlds, via the "Sorry, I can't take your call
    right now, please leave a message after the tone, else EMail me at
    DRDAN::KALIKOW" stratagem, is verboten.
    
    Perhaps it's just at the facility of the person who stated that it is
    uncool to do so?  For some local (but still imho unlikely, from this
    uninformed viepoint) reason???  Reference, please...
    

Re: SSN being your phone number

Extremely unlikely, given that the SSN doesn't have enough digits, and has
been abused enough already.  Now perhaps it will be the Government health
insurance card number?

Re: e-mail addresses in voicemail greetings

This seems to be largely a local decision, though I haven't yet heard of
a facility where it is allowed.  I suspect that this rule is based on the
same incorrect logic that obstensibly prevents people from using the
.enet.dec.com style address on business cards (see note 174, but I've got
it on mine!)  I've generally found that "Telecom" folks have a weak grasp
of what are real security issues and what aren't.

Our system at ZKO (runs on a VAX, don't know what it's called) supposedly
has a mechanism for differentiating internal from external calls, but I've
yet to get a call that says anything other than "outside call", even from
those in the next office.  We don't have the ability to provide separate
greetings - that's a great idea.

We're also required to change our password every 90 days and have a
minimum password length of 8 characters.  But is there "password history"
to prevent reuse?  Other than "the new password can't be the same as the
old", no!  In addition, the folks who manage it don't attempt to verify
callers who claim they've "forgotten their password".  Sigh.

				Steve

    voice mail is the biggest detriment to customer satisfaction since the
    nuru jacket.

    In LKG, the rule about "no email addresses in greetings" was mentioned
    in the (photocopied) guide to meridian mail.
    
    I've gotten messages labeled "internal" from other folks in LKG and
    from other "close" sites that I suspect are on the same phone switch
    (DSG, TAY for instance).
    
    I'd love a system that sends email when I have voice mail.  If I'm
    working out of the office I usually don't think to check voice mail.
    
    Since some of our voice mail sytems are based on VMS (using Digital's
    Computer Integrated Telephony stuff, DECvoice cards and the like), it
    should be possible to make them send email (at least VMS mail -- I'm
    not holding my breath for SMTP mail).
    
    Perhaps a system that extracted data from ELF to provide phone number
    to e-mail address mapping would avoid yet another bureaucratic
    application mess.  [do they know the badge number of every voice mail
    account holder?]
    
    The mail message would only have text like "Your Voice Mailbox at DTN
    xxx-yyyy has 2 messages.  Message 1 was recieved at hh:mm AM on
    mm/dd/yy from an external number and is xx:xx seconds long. ..."  Since
    thee's no "content" revealed, this probably isn't sensitive enough data
    to be super strict about security on.
    
    Steveg

    RE .46
    
    >	I saw a segment on the news the other day about everyone would soon
    >( 2 to 3 years ) have personal phones that are small enough to clip on
    >your belt. The phone number would or could be your social security
    >number.
    
    "Smith!" screamed the shrewish voice from the [personal phone].
    6079 Smith W.! Yes, you! Bend lower, please! You can do better than
    that.
    
    
    

    	Another tip (which again is vendor specific) is that with some
    systems, VMX D.I.A.L for instance, you can bypass the greeting and go 
    directly to record your message by hitting the * key when the greeting
    begins. I learned this because someone included the hint in their greeting..
    
    	Also, when accessing this system from your PBX extension to retrieve a
    message, you can enter # in lieu of your extension number when
    prompted. This saves a few keystrokes.
    
    Phil
    	

Phil, I think we have the same voicemail gear here in CSO. About 6-9
months ago, they turned off the feature of the system dialing your
pager when a voicemail was left. It seems some phone 'phrack' types were
exploiting a bug in the voicemail system software... using some password
into the voicemail system they were then able to place outgoing calls at
DECs expense. Turning off the paging disabled the 'bug' in the software.

IMHO, DEC was so relieved to quit running up the big phone bill that they
haven't pushed back on the vendor (i.e. wimped out) to plug this security
problem. Voicemail is about useless to me without this paging feature.
I'm out making DEC some money and am hardly ever in the office.

When I pushed IM&T (or whatever they are called this week) about the loss
of this feature they suggested that I call in every hour and check my
voicemail.

Yeah, right.

Lee

p.s. This 'bug' came about after we upgraded to a newer version of
software. At the customer site I work at they have an older version and
they still have the paging feature.

    Lee, I must admit that I have had the paging call turned off for some
    time, but not 6 months! We did have an upgrade, so it might not be working 
    currently. I'll check it out, thanks.
    
    Phil

    Re: .54
    
    Don't try that (pressing asterisk) with the system we have at ZKO
    (also MKO and other "Nashua area" plants) - it is taken as a request
    to enter the password for that voicemailbox.
    
    Voicemail and answering machines can be abused, certainly.  But if
    the choice is between voicemail and having the phone ring when
    I'm not in the office, I'll take voicemail.
    
    				Steve

        since we are talking about phones and customers and related issues,
    i'd like to point the existence now days (at least in the US via
    AT&T) of this new phone where a small screen comes with it and you
    can see the other person on it while they talk to you. i think in the
    near future when customers and DECeees both have such phone and they
    both use it , it will put a new face (pardon the puns) on customer
    communications, i mean now you can talk to the customer and pretend you
    are smiling and may be you forgot to comb your hair since 2 days
    ago, but the customer dont see you so you dont care, but tomorrow
    with these new phones it will put pressure on the DECeees who talk
    on the phone with customer on regular basis to come to work every
    day with big smile on their face and to dress nice and all . i think
    this will add more pressure on them because now they'll have to smile
    even if they dont feel like it and have to remember to have an extra
    comb in the drawer at work just in case.

    just an interesting perspective on customer/phone area i thought
    i point out .

    \nasser

    What I like is the following scenario:-
    Call someone
    Phone rings
    After three rings you get the answering machine
    "Sorry,I am currently travelling/not at my desk/Out to lunch(In both
    senses of the expression usually)-please leave a message after the
    tone..
    Beep
    'Er-hi Mike,I need to talk to you about the order for xyz and'
    Phone answers(odd,thought there was no-one there-IT'S MIKE!
    Hi Stuart!
    
    How many times has this happened to you-the answerphone used as a
    defence mechanism?
    Sack 'em!

    My peeve is null messages: the ZKO voicemail often tells me I
    have a message and it's just the sound of the other side
    hanging up.  This is time-consuming for me, with no compensating
    benefit.
    
    While I know it's difficult to determine that some sound is 
    actually human speech, this is the thing that most makes me 
    dislike voicemail.  Frankly (with apologies to Steve L.) I'd
    rather have the phone ring in my office.
    
    			-John Bishop

    re: .48
    
    Yes, the first 3 digits tell what state you got the card in.  022
    and 029 are both assigned to Massachusetts; I don't know any others.
    (Maine may be 013???)

I've got a Massachusetts (applied in Lowell) social security card that starts 
with 031; I'm a Finnish citizen with an L-1 working visa.

...petri

    001 from Nashua NH (back when you just went into the office and picked
    up the card)

    557 from Los Angeles.  I figured out that the first 3 were assigned by
    regions way back in the '60s.  It was about that same time (early Air
    Force days) I noticed that folkd from West of the Mississippi wore
    wallets on the right side and folks from the East wore their wallets on
    the left; (generally).
    
    This should classify as the entry to the mother of all rat-holes, leave
    a message and I'll get back to you...
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    			<BEEP!>
    
    

    Digital isn't the only company with a voicemail curse.  Yesterday I had
    an urgent need to consult with a partner company.  Not having the
    direct line, I called the switchboard.
    
    --M...G..., may I help you?
    --May I speak to D..W..?
    --Certainly, just a minute.
      Ring.
    --This is D..W.., I'm sorry, I'm not in the office, but..
      Press "0".
      Wait.  Ring.
    --This is H..B..  I'm in training this week, so..
      Press "0" again.
      Wait.  Rings switchboard again.
    --M...G..., may I help you?
    --I must speak with someone in D..W..'s office.
    --Uh, just a minute.
      Wait.  Ring.
    --This is M.., can I help you?  (Real person)
    --I tried to call D..W.. just now..
    --Oh, yes, just a moment.
      Wait.
    --This is D..W.., I'm sorry, I'm not in the office..
      Press "0".
      Wait.  Ring.
    --This is H..B..  I'm in training this week, so..
      Press "0" again.
      Wait.  Rings switchboard.
    --M...G..., can I help you?
    --I have an urgent need to speak to D..W.. and keep getting voicemails.
      Can you help me?
    --Just a moment.
      Wait.
      Line goes dead.
      Redial.
    --M...G..., may I help you?
    --May I speak to A..K..?  (Looking at business cards for help)
    --Just a moment, please.
      Wait.  Ring.
    --This is A..K..  I'm sorry, I can't take your call right now..
    --Press "0".
      Wait.  Ring.
    --This is H..B..  I'm in training this week..
      Press "0" again.
      Wait.  Rings switchboard again.
    --May I speak to L..G..?
      Pause.
    --I'm sorry, there is no listing for L..G..
    --How about L..L..?
      Pause.
    --No listing for L..L.. either.
    --Can you please connect me with someone in D..W..'s department?
    --What department is that?
    --Communications.
    --Just a moment, please.
      Wait.  Ring.
    --This is H..B.., I'm in training this week, so....
    
    
    Talk about productivity...
    
    Mac

     .-65

    Mac, please tell us if you ever get hold of DW, this is really
    funny, we all want to know if you ever succeed.

    may be you want to try US mail next time ?
    
    and please don't give up ! keep trying !
    
    \nasser

    re: base note
    Consider yourself lucky to *get* a voice-mail response to your calls. 
    Here at PKO, the Meridian system has been so plagued with problems, it
    seems, at times, that most incoming calls go unanswered altogether!
    
    
    tony

Re: .65

If I were you I would FAX .65 to the person you were trying to reach.
If it were me that you were trying to reach and my company sent you on a wild 
goose chase like that, I'd do something about it pronto.

Regards,

Jim

     I was never a fan of Voice-Mail until I was given an account at
    <insert Aerospace Company name here> where I am a resident. It's
    called ASPEN and has a pocket service guide full of options. It can't
    call anywhere for you, and yes, it does require you to pick up the
    phone to check it, but I like it. I give out my pager number during my
    greeting, which gives the customers a feeling that I really do care to
    talk to them. Which is a feeling that I do NOT get when dealing with
    the puzzle police in mass.
    
    At the DEC office, if you call me, I'm never there. 3 rings gets you to
    the secretary, 3 rings later gets you to the front desk, then it rings
    forever or until answered. I've been amazed that DEC has never fixed
    this, many times I've wondered how many customers have dealt with this.
    (and how many got annoyed and went somewhere else?)
    
    .mike.

    
    Well, I haven't put a note in here for a while, but with that lead in...
    
    "Up to 27% of customers who can't get through on the telephone will
    either buy elsewhere or skip the transaction altogether."
    
    Source: International Customer Service Organization
    

    Isn't our voice-mail at CXO called something like ASPEN?
    
    Ken

    As a remote engineer we call customer sites, looking for a Digital
    Engineer who left a number, we call and get "Mary Janes or John Does"
    voice mail... OUT of office, please leave message, no chance to get
    to the operator, so leave a message for the Engineer.  Some get the
    message if the "PERSON" is in, but when on vacation or out, the message
    is left there, and the Engineer calls back with a hot collar and wants
    to speak to the Manager on Duty.  
    
    I HATE VOICE MAIL, EVEN MORE THAN THE HOLD BUTTON.
    
    Dave

    Voicemail is a wonderful tool, if managed, and used properly.  More
    often than not, it is misused and mismanaged.
    
    In organizations where I have successfully helped to implement and
    manage voicemail, the following guidelines were "suggested."
    
    o  UPDATE YOUR VOICEMAIL ANNOUNCEMENT - DAILY
                                           ^^^^^
    o  LISTEN TO/AND **RETURN** YOUR MESSAGES/RETURN CALLS IN A TIMELY FASHION 
    
    o  WHERE ADMINISTRATORS HAVE VOICEMAIL (in my organization they did),
       there are one or two "default"/zero positions.  One
       administrator always had the responsibility of backing up those
       lines.  They never went unattended.  I distributed a daily "who's
       where" sheet to the administrators.  We could easily answer where
       so-and-so was if asked.  Generally, that was the reason people did
       press zero-- because SO-and-SO either:  didn't update the voice-
       mail greeting/announcement, and/or didn't return calls.  
    
       Callers could always reach a "human," except before or after normal
       business hours.  Managers could communicate with their secretary
       when traveling... and not worry about the secretary being there.
    
       
    My personal feeling is that the voicemail utility is a tool which can
    work, very efficiently, very effectively.  It's how the utility is set
    up in an organization, with the administrative staff, etc., and then
    how it is used, that makes a difference.  This wonderful little piece
    of technology can work!
    
    Rgds,
    marcia, aka/Mrs. Kip	
    

re .73:

>    o  UPDATE YOUR VOICEMAIL ANNOUNCEMENT - DAILY

Why?

    So your caller knows where you are and aren't likely to press "0" and
    get a secretary who doesn't know....
    
    My pet peeve!!
    
    If I am going to be out of my office for more than one hour (unlikely
    for most admin's), I will update my message to tell people when to
    expect my return.  I also call from home to update if I am out sick
    that day, so when someone calls to ask me to get a conference room for
    a 10:00 meeting, they know if it will happen....
    
    -sandy
    

>>    o  UPDATE YOUR VOICEMAIL ANNOUNCEMENT - DAILY
>
>Why?

To keep up with the organisational changes, of course.

re: .76

But many voice mail systems limit your announcement message time to 1 or 2
minutes.

    Oh sure you can.  My voicemail announcement isn't two minutes and it:
    
    Identifies 	DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION
    		Personal Computer Business Unit
    		The Date
    		I'm In or I'm Out
    		Please Leave Me a Message
    		Thank you for Calling.
    
    Less than two minutes... 
    
    Rgds,
    marcia

    I heard a wonderful clip on the radio last night...
    
    Seems this guy (who worked for a voicemail supplier in Virginia) got 
    shafted by a banking error so that his ATM came up dry, and as a
    result he was stranded.  He called the bank's service number, and got
    the electronic run-around, "press 9 to talk to a real person/sorry there
    is no real person available" ad nauseum  (he said the folks in the 
    voicemail industry call this voicemail jail).   After several days of 
    interstate phone calls, he was suitably irate and decided to get revenge.
    
    He rigged his voicemail system so it would call the bank's complaint
    number, ask "press 9 if you are a real person" and then quip 
    "sorry, the customer who wishes to complain is not available, press 9
    to accept a real complaint".   The sarcasm in the messages got heavier
    as the voicemail jail closed tighter "your *valued* customer wishes to
    complain, but can't come to the phone", etc.  On the radio, they played
    the whole sequence, which lasted several minutes.
    
    Anyway, he got a profuse apology from the bank's head office.  Maybe
    they'll clue in???  
    
    

    Actually, I'm not sure I have any sympathy at all for this
    guy.  He sells voicemail systems?  Then he *deserves* to
    be given the runaround by inane automated responses.  I hope
    it happens to him again and again.

    I think the point he was making is that there *is* a sensible way to
    use the technology, as long as you remember that the users are people,
    and that the useage supports some goal, business or otherwise.
    
    Most people throw the technology over the wall, and abdicate
    responsibility for the overall process.  We sell a lot of computer
    hardware this way, forgetting that the only need for computers is to
    make some human endeavor more productive or more rewarding.

    "If you would like to press 1, press 1 now.
    
     If you would like to press 2, press 2 now.
    
    ..."
    
    

    I write courses for DEC, and I like voicemail.  
    
    I like email much *better*, because I can see it, manipulate it,
    extract it, or print it, but I like being able to get my phone messages
    from wherever I happen to be without them being filtered by a
    secretary.
    
    I almost always pick up the phone if I'm in the office, unless someone
    is here meeting with me, but for me the best feature about voicemail is
    that it allows me to hear the original message from anywhere, allows me
    to set aside a chunk of time for returning calls I wasn't here to
    receive, and allows me to receive personal messages (like test results
    from medical people -- "your ___ test was negative" -- without wasting
    anymore of either of our time or having the message misunderstood in
    translation).  
    
    (There are calls I have failed to return, but I hope they are very few. 
    I know I've dropped the ball on a few email messages, too, over the
    years, but sometimes it is a matter of doing triage and not being able
    to keep up with up to 200 messages a day.)
    
    It also gets me off the hook returning calls -- I spend much less time
    playing phone tag than I did before we had it.  If someone calls me,
    and I call them back and get their voicemail, the ball is back in their
    court.  I also tell them things like "call me at home tonight up til
    11" that actually facilitate communication if the issue is important
    for business.
    
    I think anyone whose job is to regularly interface with customers (mine
    isn't) has a different level of responsibility.  I remember being
    shocked when temping at a DEC facility for a couple of weeks about 10
    years ago, and working in a hotline group (which shall remain
    nameless). Only one person was left in the office late on a particular
    afternoon, and he was theoretically responsible for all hotline calls. 
    He told me not to forward any calls to him!  No one else was around.  I
    got a very important call (I thought) and walked over to his office and
    asked him to talk to the sales person who was calling.  He wouldn't.  I
    had to tell the sales person no one was available to help him with some
    competitive information he needed.  My opinion of DEC took a nosedive
    at that time.
    
    Holly

    	Ending voicemail "tag" is hard to overcome. The key points are to 
    recognize if you and your caller can use it like email.. Nothing irks
    me more than a message which states "I have an answer to your question; 
    you can call me at.." JUST LEAVE THE ANSWER IN YOUR MESSAGE!!!!
    
    Phil
    	

    Recently I received a complaint from one of the Customers that they
    were trying to contact a particular individual and left several messages 
    and this person did not return any of his phone calls.On hearing this, I 
    placed several calls myself and this person would not return my phone 
    calls either. After great difficulty, I found out that this person never
    answers the phone under any circumstances, during working hours and
    uses the phone for out going calls only..
    
    While I understand the fact that some times one gets too many calls and
    may take fews days of delays to respond, I am unable to understand the
    "Never answer the phone policy" of this individual.
    
    Sheesh ! No wonder Digital is in trouble...

    
    
    
    	The one that cracks me up is when it says..
    
    	"when you are through leaving a message, hang up, or
    	press 1"
    
    
    	What idiot would press 1 and then hang up, if all they have
        to do is hangup???                                     

        >   The one that cracks me up is when it says..

    >        "when you are through leaving a message, hang up, or
    >        press 1"


    >        What idiot would press 1 and then hang up, if all they have
    >        to do is hangup???
                                   
    hi  \Q,

    i'll try to answer this without  knowing the full circumenstances
    around the call.

    i think it looks they meant that if you want to hang up then not
    to press 1, just go ahead and do hang up, but by pressing the 1 this
    means you do not intended to hang up, and as you indicated correctly
    in this case there is no need to press the 1. but i dont see any
    conflict between the two.

    any way, this is how i understood it.

    hope this help.

    \nasser

    Typically, pressing 1 (or whatever) gets you to a menu that will, for
    instance, allow you to send voicemail to other mailboxes.  This can
    save a bit of $$$ if you're calling in long distance and need to leave
    messages for several people.
    
    \dave

    On the systems that give you the Press '1' option, allow you to 
    review the message you have left with the added option of changing
    (read rerecord) it or trying another extension. 
    
    For folks using the Northern Telcom product, the '#' stops recording
    and the '2' will replay the message. '76' will delete, and '5' will 
    record a new message.  After '2' review, '5' will allow to add to 
    the message.
    
    Hope this helps
    Fred
    

    The nice thing about pressing 1 is that you can tehn mark your message
    as urgent.  You can also enter a 0 after you have posted your message
    and get to someone who should be able to give you some idea of when you
    can expect a response (or page the person or transfer you where they
    are).  The problem is that when I call people in the puzzle palace,
    like I got to respond to an RFP by yesterday and there is a coupl'a
    million bucks on the line, I really need a response, like NOW.  I enter
    the message and hit 0, if I am lucky, someone will answer the phone and
    if a miracle occurs, they will know who the person is that I am trying
    to reach.  Rarely does a miracle occur, very rarely.
    
    Larry

    I'll take a competent answering machine over an irresponsible human
    anyday.
    
    I've made three successive "urgent" calls to someone who will remain
    nameless (and clueless, too) in the UK. The most charming receptionist
    answers the phone, the last two times saying "He still hasn't called
    you yet? This is really most unusual."
    
    The US voicemail-that-forwards-to-voicemail model is the equal of the (not
    meaning to generalize) UK human-receptionist-to-vegetable model I've
    been seeing. They're both unprofessional.