Conference 7.286::digital

See NOTE 2630

Sorry, I couldn't resist

>    What is the path in todays new Digital? Managers: What do you look for
>    when promoting into the managerial ranks?

 
	Hmm, what a strange trun of phrase.

	Why should moving to management be a promotion?

	Heather

    
>>    What is the path in todays new Digital? Managers: What do you look for
>>    when promoting into the managerial ranks?
>
> 
>	Hmm, what a strange trun of phrase.
>
>	Why should moving to management be a promotion?

    If one is a Consulting Engineer management may not be a promotion. And
    I recognize that moving from individual contributor to manager can
    often be a lateral move. However, for most of us, manager is a step
    up in job code and pay scale.

    			Alfred

	So, do you want to do the job because you want to manage, or do you
	want to do the job because you think it's a step up in the pay scale?


	Heather

>	So, do you want to do the job because you want to manage, or do you
>	want to do the job because you think it's a step up in the pay scale?
    
    Because I want to manage. 
    
    		Alfred

    whether it be a consulting engineer, or a supervisor/manager, I think
    it takes hard work and a Manager that will invest in you and work with
    you.  Ideally, that manager will be a role-model for you, and a mentor.
    
    Mark

	Okay then, one way it works is for people around you to see that
	you have leadership and people ablilities, which you show in addition
	to the work you do.
	You then chat to your manager, show them you are doing this, and ask
	them the way to go about this in your organisation, and ask them to
	help.

	They should be able to show you the skill sets required for managemnt in
	your area, and if there are skills you have not shown, they can help you
	do the work which will show those abilities.

	You could try applying for managemnt in other areas, but they'll be 
	looking for you to have shown that you have the skills...so you will
	still need to do the above.

	I moved away from management when I saw it moving away from mentoring, 
	into straight people managment.....looking at some of the things
	recently, mentoring-type management might be on the return.
	
	Heather

    >    it takes hard work and a Manager that will invest in you and work with
    
    What sort of hard work?
    
    		Alfred
    

    
    Re: How to become a manager 8*)
    
    I heard that they put a large needle in your ear and suck out half of
    your brain.  After a few weeks they check on your progress, it is often
    the case that 1/2 isn't enough and they must go in for more..   8*)
    
    
    Re: pay scales...  
    
        The incentive to be a manager is that the SRI levels
        are in general much higher than the individual contributor
        engineer levels. Also, for some odd reason it is much easier
        to me promoted to "Engineering Manager" than it is "Consultant
        Engineer" (Same SRI's).
        
    Jon

RE            <<< Note 2636.0 by CVG::THOMPSON "Radical Centralist" >>>

>    How does one get to be a manager at Digital? I hear that in engineering
>    it happens because you lead a few projects, bring them in on time, and
>    gradually merge into being a supervisor rather than an engineer. 

  No, what happens in engineering is that as you get older you can't run as
fast and eventually they catch up, knock you down, drag you into an office,
lock the door, and threaten not to let you out unless you agree to spend some
time as a manager. 

  As bleak as that sounds, there is an easy way out. Corporate policy demands
that anyone who can get diagnosed as certifiably crackers has the right to step
down from management with really short notice. Turns out that if you have Bay
State, they will sign such a form as part of their preventive medicine program.
They get some sort of kick back from the state for every patient successfully
removed from a management position. 

  George

I speak only from my own experience and my commitment to what a manager
is:

I became a manager before I joined Digital; I was hired into Digital
to comtinue being a manager.  I became a manager because I noticed that
I enjoyed helping others do their work more than I enjoyed doing it
myself.  I also noticed that more work got done that way.

I have opened opportunities for 3 others to become managers during my
time at Digital.  In all three cases, it was because they exhibited
all of the following characteristics:

 - on every team they were a part of, everyone on that team benefited from
that person's presence; everyone's work got better when that person was
around.
 - every project they worked on involved others (even if it began as a
one person project) and everyone involved benefited from their 
involvement.
 - they displayed a genuine caring for the success and well-being of
others, and their actions were consistent with this caring.
 - they were able to control their own need to be right at the expense
of others.
 - none of the above characteristics appeared to these folks
as "hard work".  It just was the natural thing to do and in some cases
these folks did it even when given a direct reprimand by previous managers
NOT to do these things.

All of the other aspects of being a manager can be learned.  These things
above you just have to be.

2 of the 3 people are now very successful managers; I still have hope
for the third.

    
        To reinforce an earlier comment, there are certainly a lot of 
        incentives for moving toward the management path from individual 
        contributorship:
    
            We tend to promote engineers too fast to Senior and Prinipal 
            levels.  Once there, they face a huge daunting barrier to 
            reach Consultant, namely a Review Board that requires lots 
            of support documentation and testimonial letters.  Consequently
            few make it to that next step (it would be interesting to know 
            what fraction of Principals; anyone know?).
    
            No such barrier for the management track.  Your own food chain,
            not a review board, can decide on promotions to higher levels 
            of management at any time with any criteria.
    
            Also ask: Who sits on and contributes to the various higher-
            level forums, committees etc., the ones that make decisions 
            (or claim to do so)?  Can you say "managers"; I knew you could.
            Precious few individual contributors there.
    
            Then ask also:  How do organization charts appear?  That's 
            right - organized by management levels with names, with the 
            troops at the bottom, usually unnamed.
    
        An amusing example:  I know of someone who wanted to move DOWN 
        from a higher management title to an individual contributor level;
        unfortunately that would have been Consultant, and would have meant 
        jumping through all the requisite narrow hoops to move DOWN in SRI!
    
    
        My personal opinion is that it's best to keep a foot in both camps: 
        management if that's your interest and skill, and some individual 
        contributorship to keep some technical skill and also to understand 
        what life in the trenches is about.  But it's not easy.
    
    Peter
    

>        An amusing example:  I know of someone who wanted to move DOWN 
>        from a higher management title to an individual contributor level;
>        unfortunately that would have been Consultant, and would have meant 
>        jumping through all the requisite narrow hoops to move DOWN in SRI!
 
	Strange, when I moved from individual contributor, to manager, it was
	a sideways step. The promotion whilst I was manager, had to go through
	a board.

	I then moved from manager to individual contributor, a sideways step,
	the promotion whilst an individual contributor was also through a board.
  
    	The things looked for by the boards overlapped about 50%.

	Heather

I was hired into Digital as a manager in an Engineering group.  A few years 
later, I moved into another position as an individual contributor.  A few years 
later I moved into yet another position as a manager.  Later, I moved to 
another position as an individual contributor.  All moves were in the same 
"group", but different CCs.  In all cases, although job titles changed, there 
was no change in SRI.  All changes in SRI came as promotions after I had proven 
my worth in the new position.  As long as the job has value and presents a 
challange, it matters little if it is "management" or "individual contributor".