Conference 7.286::digital

I needed MS PowerPoint (field wants PPT format).  I ask Pauline to get it.
Pauline can always be counted on to scrounge anything or find the cheapest way
to get it.

We could have ordered it from 1-800-SOFTWARE for $289.  They would have
shipped same day, no additional paperwork required.

Found out that the SDC offers it internally for $35.  But we needed a VPs
signature for them to ship it.  

I asked my boss to ask his boss (a VP) to save the Corportation $254.  He
wanted to know why I was bothering him for a $35 purchase. Note that he was
smiling when he said this. After he made a few phone calls, SDC agreed that
perhaps a VP's signature wasn't required for this. 

There are so many SPENDSMART programs in place.  Individually, these programs
make sense.  As a whole, the are strangling us.

    re: - .0  Dave, and to add to it, what does your hourly rate + others
    come to * several hours? Do College or University degrees in accounting
    include even a MINOR in THINKING these days? Who thinks up these 1
    level plans meant to address multi-level issues? TSFO THEM!@!!

    i think we need an AI based program that you just tell it what you want
    and the program knows who to call and contact to get it approved and
    purchased, the AI based software systems will do all the mailing to the
    appropriate channels, it will respond, get the signatures on file,
    file up the requestions (sp?)  numbers and finally notify the author on
    the completion of the task.  all this time the original arbitrator of
    the request can be busy doing his or her original work and let the
    AI based system do all the hassling and whistling to the task 
    until it approved and finalized.

    human intervention should always be possible in case the AI based
    systems cant get the software purchased.

    i always said that we need more AI programs in this company to help
    with the mundane jobs but no one listens.

    \nasser

    A number of years ago I spent the better part of the day driving 
    around the 3M area trying to collect all the signatures my group
    needed so that one in our group could get emergency home leave (he's
    and ex pat) because his father was seriously ill. Finally got the last
    signature (a VP) by waiting outside a room he was expected at for a
    meeting. Figuring in my time, the time of the secretary who was
    locating the next signature person while I was driving between plants,
    and other people involved I figure that paper work cost a couple of
    hundred dollars. All for something no one would have any objection to.
    It was all covered by policy.
    
    			Alfred

    re .6
    
    The sad thing about reading this is that over a decade ago I was
    involved in the implementation of a Digital Manufacturing Information
    system on DECSystem-10s that included electronic routing and approval
    for purchase orders and other usual "paperwork" operations.  Don't know
    if they finally implemented the full specification, but it included
    electronic tracking of the process (where is that PO?), alternate
    approval lists, time-outs, etc.
    
    Sounds like Digital's information systems have actually made negative
    progress in the past 10 years.
    
    /Butch

    Another undeniable truth about Digital appears:
    
    "A decision that takes two weeks and five signatures is better than a
    decision that takes one hour and one signature, regardless of whatever
    the decision is about."

Once there was a time when you could buy small items without any signature
and for slighly expensive stuff the consent of your manager was enough,
and usually *afterwards*.

The disk space is unfortunately not sufficient to describe the frustration
caused by the current policy.

We must finally throw out all these funny 'cost saving programs' and allow
each unit to have an adequate amount of free money for these small cookies.

Kari

    
    Re:
    
>Found out that the SDC offers it internally for $35.  But we needed a VPs
>signature for them to ship it.  
    
    Where are the prices for this sort of software from the SDC posted. 35%
    of the QB part numbers is far more thab $35. I've also been told that
    the Microsoft Office stuff is only $60 from SDC. But nowhere can I find
    the prices posted.
    
    VTX PCSOFTWARE
    
    has a memo listing all the software that I think is in this program but
    no prices.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Dave

    I think my organization (design support) needs to do NT development
    with the CAD tools we support, but it's hard to prove since our 
    customers are currently VAX- and Ultrix-based.  There's (obviously) 
    little software out there that runs on NT, so I can't justify getting 
    it for my cost center.  I tried to get my group to spend $1500
    to upgrade our PC to NT.  No go.  Wound up upgrading my own system and
    getting NT myself.  Now I have a system I can do development on. 
    
    Recently I got a flyer advertizing Digital internal courses to train in 
    NT for from about $500 to $2000 per course.  Got a laugh out of that.  
    My cost center doesn't have money to spend on NT.  I think NT is important. 
    But, I can't prove it.  Our customers (Digital internal design groups)
    have given no indication that they are going to use NT, let alone pay
    for support.  So, I can see my cost center's point of view.  In spite
    of the lip service, Digital AS A COMPANY is apparently not committed to
    NT as near as I can tell.  The economics are just not there yet to
    justify investment.
    
    Those in my group who believe in the technology are getting ready for
    it, but largely at their own personal expense.
    
    Steve

Dave G - perhaps you should describe your NT toolkit
as "independent self-paced NT training" ?

After all, it's obvious that having the software to play
with is better training than sitting in a classroom -- and
cheaper, too!

    
    re: .0
    
    Someone in our group (me) decided that for the sake of marketability
    and growth, they needed their own copy of the NT SDK.
    
    I called Microsoft (800-227-4679) and found out I could spend, and get:
    
        $399 for the NT SDK March Beta - all documents hardcopy
                             or
        $79 for the NT SDK March Beta - all docs on a cd-rom.
    
    Two days later I had my copy of the NT SDK. I also had a priority
    reason to finally get my own cd-rom.
    
    My own purchasing manager (wife) had no problem with $79 or with the
    cd-rom player. My own purchasing manager had BIG problems with $399 for
    paper output with a very short useful lifespan.
    
    J.B.
    
    

RE .8

Kari,

Most of us have an adequate amount of free money for these small cookies.
Its right there in my group's budget: Third Party Software, Tools, Licenses.
Many of the tools used in my group are from third parties, so there's a small
but formal budget for it.

The problem is, after developing the budget, fighting to get the budget 
approved at each level and from each sponsoring organization, I can't spend it.

I truly believe that if people in these organizations would spend the time to
think about what they are doing rather than mindlessly implementing policy to
the letter, and blaming someone else for the slow down, things would improve
rapidly. 

MS

    >    My own purchasing manager (wife) had no problem with $79 or with the
    >cd-rom player. My own purchasing manager had BIG problems with $399 for

    sorry, but i cant help comment on this, some people might think there 
    seem a conflict of interest here, if the purchasing manager is your wife, 
    would not other employees start to think that she will approve your 
    purchase orders forms for you more easily than for the rest of the group?

    i knew that will not happen, but some people might think so, especially
    if you talk about it in the open?

    \nasser

re .2
>    re: - .0  Dave, and to add to it, what does your hourly rate + others
>    come to * several hours? Do College or University degrees in accounting
>    include even a MINOR in THINKING these days? 

Don't blame the University or accounting people, it is purely a result of 
managers who are idiots.  There is simply no other word for it.  I was in a 
purchasing and finance office at LSI Logic two weeks ago when he signed 
several requests for multiple thousands of dollars simply because the 
person that brought the paper work had a convincing reason.  Some forms 
were signed out of order simply because getting the review is what is 
necessary, not the order of review.  He even signed 2 blank forms because 
he trusted the people who brought them to him.

The policy for expense and capital review is "never quibble about less than
$50, and rarely about $500.  Spend time reviewing a budget at the begining
of the year, track the actualls, then let people manage their money."   I 
love when common sense runs a group.

Matt

We used to use mostly Digital software, available for free.  We now increasingly
need to use other company's software.

We must find a way to easily get that software to those who need it if Digital
is to survive in this changing industry.  To produce products that run on
others' operating systems and with others' software, to allow the current
situation to continue is to ensure our failure.

I hope someone is working on a sane plan for this.

Paul

    I attended the DVN taping today of Bob Palmer's April 27 Q&A with
    employees.  I asked him about these approval loops/hurdles, and got a
    response which seemed to show that he, at least, understands rather
    well that long approval loops are bad for productivity.  

    They asked us not to pre-empt his show by putting stuff on the net, so
    I won't go into any more detail.  But if my question and his answer
    doesn't end up on the cutting room floor, I think you'll see a pretty
    level headed answer.

    	/john

        re: 14
        STAR::ABBASI "checkmate!"
        >>My own purchasing manager (wife) had no problem with $79 
        >sorry, but i cant help comment on this, some people might think 
        >there seem a conflict of interest here, if the purchasing manager 
        >is your wife,
        
                                and
        re:17
        GVAADG::PERINO
        >I think the point in .12 was:
        >"I bought it with my money and my wife's approval to avoid any
         Digital red tapes". 

                     SET MODE = RIP (DIP,DIP) ON

        Now you've done it! Thanks a lot! And putting "sorry, but i cant help"
        in the entry doesn't really help at all.

        I work very hard these days to remain PC in my replies and keep
        certain things out print to avoid 'incorrectness' and what do I
        get - the whole thing spelled out in detail!

        Political Correctness Police - please note: I NEVER said 'MY wife'
        that was /nasser and his leaping to conclusions.

       And I CERTAINLY never said 'avoid any Digital red tapes' - what, me
       avoid a process instituted and promulgated by THE company? no way!

       I fully support and stand in awe of ALL the directives, regulations,
       rules, traditions, demands and procedures written, spoken or hinted
       at within the confines of the organization. Hear, hear!

                     SET MODE = RIP (DIP,DIP) OFF

       I did say the cd-rom for $79 makes a lot more sense than $399 for
       paper. To me that's not only PC but CS. (YMMV)

       J.B.

    
    >   I fully support and stand in awe of ALL the directives, regulations,
    >   rules, traditions, demands and procedures written, spoken or hinted
    >   at within the confines of the organization. Hear, hear!
    
    yes, that is good, you are a very good DECeeee, we need more DECeeees
    like this and things will be good around here.
    
    \bye
    \nasser

The number for SSB is 241-3023.  I was informed that a VPs approval is
still needed.  I don't have an internal price list for SSB 3rd party
software.  See also note 2460.*.

MS ...^....^....^....^...just hitting all the speed bumps....^...^...^

    Re .-1
    
    Yes I called the SSB number yesterday and asked for the price list to
    be mailed to me. I was told it would be if they could work out how...
    So far I've heard nothing so I assume I won't be hearing anything.
    The people at SSB can look up the prices but they don't know how to get
    that information to others...
    
    Dave

    I don't think it's so hard to get a copy of the NT SDK.  Yesterday, I
    wanted one and was considering getting it when somebody walked up to me
    and handed me a sealed NT SDK March Beta, free.
    
    (It seems it had been sent to a J. Doe at MKO, but there was no J. Doe
    there, so the mailroom sent it to J. Doe at ZKO, who had no use for it
    and gave it to me.  I checked the contact phone number on the packing
    slip for a partial match with any J* Doe in the company and any Doe at
    Merrimack, but there was no match and the phone number is not a working
    number.  I called Microsoft and explained.  They said I could keep the
    kit, and they changed their database to register the kit to me.)
    
    
    				-- edp

	RE: .24 I wonder how Digital would handle that sort of situation.

			Alfred

    .22

    >The people at SSB can look up the prices but they don't know how to get
    >that information to others...

    hi Dave, is this because it is hard copy and you wanted it send
    it to you via electronic mail? if so, we here in ZKO have a scanner, you 
    scan a document and its image is created in a file on the computer in 
    postscript format, then one can mail the file via e-mail to any place
    on the digital network and the receiving parties can just print the file 
    if they want to a postscript printer and you get what you in a hard copy 
    format.

    i can't see why else they cant get you the prices you want, this is
    weird.

    \nasser

    RE:  prices from SSB...
    
    Maybe I didn't understand Dave's price question, but here's what I
    know...  DEC has a contract with MS and in that contract DEC employees
    receive "free" software - we are not paying for the software itsef,
    just royalty and/or licensing charges.  (I believe this is for
    "internal use" software - that's why SSB offers it cheaper than
    DECdirect - they charge your cost center).
    
    Example - Microsoft Office is about $399 on the street and we can get
    it internally for $54.

    
    The story gets worse. Now we need Microsoft Office. Costs $59.78 from
    the SSB and a royalty charge later of what I think is well less than
    $200.
    
    All the finance systems say I have signature authorization for $20,000
    on some categories and $100,000 on others but I'm not allowed to
    authorize a poxy $50 piece of software. That requires a VPs signature
    according to the SSB. Of course VPs don't sign things unless everybody
    under them does and it gets checked out by finance.
    
    Meanwhile I received the stuff I talked about in .0 from Microsoft. My
    order for Windows NT is still making its way through purchasing and I
    suspect purchasing will be kicking thast out because I havem't got a VP
    approval.
    
    Dave
    
    
From:	SMAUG::GARROD "An Englishman's mind works best when it is almost too late  27-Apr-1993 1109 -0400" 27-APR-1993 11:09:59.07
To:	DOLORES
CC:	GARROD
Subj:	Please order Microsoft Office

Dolores,

Please order this. Unfortunately the SSB told me it requires a VP signature.
I called Larry Walker's office and am waiting for a call back to find out
how this is handled.

Anyway here is the info:

Item:	Microsoft Office
Part:	QB-MK3AA-SA
Price:	$59.78 (plus royalty that will later get charged to our CC. I'm
    	        not sure how much it will be but will be less than $300)
Justification:

This software is required for the following reasons:

    1) To print off Microsoft Word files that we regularly get.
    2) To prepare Powerpoint Presentations which is now the format all of
       our product presentations have to be in for the field.

While I'm waiting for a call back from Larry's office please can you start
this through the approval process. as far as I'm aware this does not need
Finance Approval only VP approval. I'll let you know when someone from
Larry Walker's office calls me.

When you have the approval just send the completed form to WMOIS::SDCISO

Thanks,

Dave

                           U.S. SOFTWARE SUPPLY BUSINESS
                                   WESTMINSTER MA
                            508-874-3023 OR DTN 241-3023
     
               PLEASE RETURN FORM TO WMOIS::SDCISO OR SDCISO @WMO      
                      PLEASE FILE A COPY FOR FUTURE USE

    	         *** U.S.S.S.B. INTERNAL SOFTWARE ORDER FORM ***

      		         (REVISED ORDER FORM 1993)                      
   REQUESTOR:    

    BADGE #     |
    REQUESTOR   |                                    
    COST CENTER |              
    DTN/EXT     |                                                  
    EMAIL       |	                                             	
                                             
   AUTHORIZE:                                                                            
                                              
    BADGE#      |                             
    NAME        |                                     	      
    COST CENTER |                                  

   SHIP TO:

    ATTN TO     |
    BADGE #     |
    MAIL STOP   |
    SHIP TO     | DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION
    ADDRESS     |
    CITY        |
    STATE       |
    ZIP CODE    |
    PHONE #     |
                                                                            		                               
    
    NOTE:  OUR CYCLE TIME IS 3 WORKING DAYS UPON RECEIPT OF ORDER   
    
    PUT AN "X" IN ONE OF THE FOLLOWING SHIP METHODS:  
                    
          BESTWAY SURFACE  [   ]   OR  OTHER  [   ]        
    
    CHECK LIST: HAVE YOU FILLED IN ALL REQUIRED INFORMATION?

    WARNING   : THIRD-PARTY SOFTWARE MAY BE SUBJECT TO ROYALTY EXPENSE WHICH 
                WILL BE CHARGED TO YOUR COST CENTER.  AN INTERNAL LICENSE 
                (1 PER CPU) MUST BE ORDERED FOR EACH SOFTWARE PRODUCT LISTED 
                ON THE QUARTERLY MEMO "REQUIRED INTERNAL LICENSE ORDERING", 
                SENT ELECTRONICALLY TO ALL U.S. COST CENTER MANAGERS.  FOR 
                MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT ROYALTY ADMINISTRATION (SEE YOUR
                DEC DIRECTORY).
                IT IS AGAINST YOUR EMPLOYEE AGREEMENT TO REPRODUCE OR 
                TRANSFER SOFTWARE TO ANY ENTITY OUTSIDE OF Digital OR ANY 
                OTHER ORGANIZATION INSIDE OF Digital Equipment Corporation.
         
       PUT AN "X" IN ONE:  CURRENT  [   ]    OR   ARCHIVE  [   ]
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    |MODEL NUMBER |VERSION|            DESCRIPTION                   |QUANTITY|
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                              

    I will tell you my process for getting software...
    
    As soon as I have a request from an employee (I am the secretary to the
    cost center manager) I forward a memo to my manager asking for
    "pre-approval" and it then gets forwarded to the VP from her mail
    account.  I have always received approval (send justification with the
    request) within 2 days and I then forward it attached to an on-line SSB
    request.  Total turn-around from request of order to SSB receipt of
    request is no more than 4-5 days.  From there, it's an SSB problem.  For
    example - I have been waiting for MS Office since late February.
    
    A little fore-thought works for me.
    
    -sandy
    

    re:.18
    
>    They asked us not to pre-empt his show by putting stuff on the net, so
>    I won't go into any more detail.  But if my question and his answer
>    doesn't end up on the cutting room floor, I think you'll see a pretty
>    level headed answer.
    
    Well, John, anybody who asks such a question obviously isn't the
    useless middle manager you introduced yourself as :-)
    
    but from my reading, BP's answer was along the lines of, "Gee, that's
    awfully dumb.  That shouldn't be the case.  I guess the CBUs will have
    to look into it.  Maybe they'll figure out how to fix it."
    
    Or did I miss a more direct answer somewhere along the line?

    Well I talked To Larry Walker's secretary (my VP) and was told that to
    get his approval for this $50 order it needed to be approved by Ralph
    Dormitzer and the Group Finance Controller (Wheldon Aronoff). Now I work
    for a manager that works for a manager that works for Ralph Dormitzer.
    As you're probably aware nobody approves anything unless their direct
    report approves it. I've basically given up and just told our secretary
    to work her way up the chain.
    
    What really riles me is that I just watched BP's DVN and he seemed
    amazed that this sort of crap is going on. The question referred to
    sticky pads rather than software but the principle is the same.
    Yes I know it is already being discussed in this string.
    
    And for the life of me I'd love to know what this means if I can't even
    authorize the purchase of $50 worth of software.
    
    Dave
    
Subj:	Cost Center 33H Signature Authorization List
        **Please let me know if you have any questions.**

31-MAR-1993             SIGNATURE AUTHORIZATION SYSTEM                PAGE:    1
 D GARROD                       D       APPEXP           1,500                  
 D GARROD                       D       BUSADV           5,000                  
 D GARROD                       D       BUSEXP           5,000                  
 D GARROD                       D       CAPAPP           5,000                  
 D GARROD                       D       PERDIE           1,500                  
 D GARROD                       D       PREQEX          20,000                  
 D GARROD                       D       PREQIN          25,000                  
 D GARROD                       D       RELADV           5,000                  
 D GARROD                       D       TRAEXP           1,500                  
    

    >And for the life of me I'd love to know what this means if I can't even
    >authorize the purchase of $50 worth of software.

    Dave, may be this means it is faster to just just sit down and write the 
    software yourself than getting approval to buy it :)

    \bye
    \nasser

    didn't palmer say something to the effect that this 'value added'
    VP's signing for everything was going to stop soon and that we'd
    see some communication about it soon?

    re: .-1 Well, they were going to send it out, but it needed 2 VP
    signatures and they're still waiting for one of them. 8-}

	re .33:

>    What really riles me is that I just watched BP's DVN and he seemed
>    amazed that this sort of crap is going on.

	Yes, Ken Olsen always seemed amazed when he heard about this
	sort of thing too.

	/Tom

    Time for a status update I guess.
    
    Our secretary has determined that the order for the Windows NT SDK is in
    purchasing to the best of her knowledge and the approval form for the
    $50 Windows Office software is somewhere between Ralph Dormitzer and
    Larry Walker. We believe Ralph Dormitzer has signed it. Since Larry
    Walker is the VP we're getting closer.
    
    Wonder how much in time has been spent on this ridiculousness. I'll
    give them both a couple more days before I ask our secretary to spend
    (waste) yet more time chasing this.
    
    As far as the DELTA suggestion was is concerned DELTA has dutifully
    passed it on to one of their black holes. I've heard nothing from the
    black hole.
    
    Dave

    >As far as the DELTA suggestion was is concerned DELTA has dutifully
    >passed it on to one of their black holes. I've heard nothing from the
    >black hole.
    
    Dave, about black holes.
    
    it is said that by hanging close to a black hole that your time flow 
    slows down as witnessed by those not as close to the black hole as you 
    are, this way time almost freezes for you, and all your buddies
    grow old but you dont, people look at you when you stand near a black hole 
    and see you standing still and you stay young and moving every so
    slowly and almost frozen while they are growing old and time passing them by
    much faster than with you.
    
    by the way, sending things into a black hole , it is said they they get
    out on the other side in different time and different place, but they
    are NOT lost! they are there somewhere in the universe.
    
    \nasser

<<< Note 2469.38 by SMAUG::GARROD "From VMS -> NT; Unix a mere page from history" >>>
                              -< A status update >-

    
>    As far as the DELTA suggestion was is concerned DELTA has dutifully
>    passed it on to one of their black holes. I've heard nothing from the
>    black hole.
    
>    Dave

Gee, Dave, it's only been a week!! Give us a break!! 

    
    RE: .38 and .40
    
    Black Hole is putting it mild.  I think it was a hole, but somebody has
    already filled it in.
    
    I submitted a suggestion back in February.  I got the "canned" DELTA
    response on February 18.
    
    I sent a follow-up on March 8, to which the DELTA office said it hasn't
    been 30 days yet.
    
    So...I sent another follow-up on April 15.   NOTHING!!!
    
    NOTHING to this day, from either DELTA OR the office they sent it to.
    BTW, I sent my follow-up TO the office DELTA referred the suggestion
    to, and copied DELTA on both of my follow-up's.
    
    FWIW, I didn't get the paper on this one either, as I have never heard
    anything more on the other suggestion.
    
    I guess my suggestions are just no good, and not worth anybodies time.
    
    One of these days I'll hit on something.
    

    Maybe you missunderstood.  After 30 days it gets purged out of
    DELTA.   ;-)
    

                      <<< Note 2469.41 by SPECXN::BLEY >>>
                        -< How many days does it take? >-

    
>    RE: .38 and .40
    
>    Black Hole is putting it mild.  I think it was a hole, but somebody has
>    already filled it in.
>    
>    I submitted a suggestion back in February.  I got the "canned" DELTA
>    response on February 18.
>    
>    I sent a follow-up on March 8, to which the DELTA office said it hasn't
>    been 30 days yet.
>    
>    So...I sent another follow-up on April 15.   NOTHING!!!
>    
>    NOTHING to this day, from either DELTA OR the office they sent it to.
>    BTW, I sent my follow-up TO the office DELTA referred the suggestion
>    to, and copied DELTA on both of my follow-up's.
>    
>    FWIW, I didn't get the paper on this one either, as I have never heard
>    anything more on the other suggestion.
>    
>    I guess my suggestions are just no good, and not worth anybodies time.
>    
>    One of these days I'll hit on something.

  How about also mentioning that you sent in an idea in January which was
replied to in 3 days and with which you were satisfied?

When you sent in your status request, we called the evaluator and left you
a message that he would be getting back to you shortly.  We know that he
ass not and, in fact, have just reminded him of his obligation again.

If you are going to give examples, please at least, give them accurately.
Also, I am in my office 40+ hours a week.  If you have an issue, just give
me a call and I will help to the best of my ability.

DELTA is here to help you at a time when there aren't too many organizations
that feel that way. The best way to make sure that it isn't around when
you or another of your 90+ thousand fellow employees might want to use it,
is to criticize it publicly as often as possible.    

    .-1
    
>We know that he ass 
    
    OMIGOD !!
    
    i bet if i said that in this note file people will be like jumping over 
    me like no day was tommorrow.
    
    some people get all the breaks in the world.
    
    \nasser
    

    
    RE: .43
    
    	Sorry to ruffel your feathers Maxine.  I will send you mail and we
    can take this off line.
    
    

                      <<< Note 2469.45 by SPECXN::BLEY >>>
                             -< Taking off line. >-

    
    RE: .43
    
>    	Sorry to ruffel your feathers Maxine.  I will send you mail and we
>    can take this off line.
    
No offense taken.  Will await your mail message and see what I can do to
help.    

    Re .43:
    
    >   How about also mentioning that you sent in an idea in January which
    > was replied to in 3 days and with which you were satisfied?
    > 
    > When you sent in your status request, we called the evaluator and left
    > you a message that he would be getting back to you shortly.  We know
    > that he ass not and, in fact, have just reminded him of his obligation
    > again.
    
    Are we supposed to be impressed by this?  When the power company sends
    you an inquiry asking you why you haven't paid your bill, do you remind
    them of how wonderfully you paid your bill the month before?  And do
    you just call up the Post Office and complain because they did not
    deliver your check, or will you take steps to make sure the bill gets
    paid?
    
    If the "evaluator" is not providing a response, why don't you go to
    their superior?
    
    
    				-- edp

    re: .47
    
    Seems to me you're shooting the messenger.  Delta is not some form of
    Digital Police.  If someone chooses to sit on an idea it's not
    necessarily Delta's place to go pounce on them or their boss.  One of
    the main things they help do is transfer ideas to the right people.  
    The person that proposes the idea is informed of where it goes and 
    what is happening to it.  If they don't like what is happening, they 
    can work the issue themselves.  The value added by Delta is that now 
    they know WHO to work with, near as I can tell.  In a big company like 
    Digital, WHO you know to work with is one of the services that is being 
    provided to employees through Delta.
    
    Steve

    Well first of all I'd like to thank DELTA. Let's be realistic here.
    Even if DELTA did an absolute perfect job on their charter (and my
    experience has been that they may be doing this) the perception of
    DELTA could still be really bad. When people don't get responses to
    things they've sent to DELTA you of course blame it on DELTA because
    they are your contact point. Where as in reality they have indeed
    routed the problem to the right department and it is that department
    that is sitting on it.
    
    What I'm hoping is that the people that are running DELTA are noting
    carefully the departments/empires/bureaucracies that are really bad at
    dealing with suggestions and then they have concrete information
    on the poor performance of a particular function. Given this I hope
    they then have an entry to a person who can kick a little ass ("just
    checking out Nasser's theory here") in that department.
    
    Anyone time for another status update. I'm not sure if it was
    coincidential with me posting yesterdays status update note or not
    but today I got a call from George Potter who my DELTA suggestion had
    been forwarded to. George seems to be responsible for company
    operational policies, mainly things like spending policies etc.
    
    I had a very productive conversation with George and am somewhat
    encouraged by his answers.
    
    George first of all asked me if I knew who had mandated that a VP
    signature was needed for buying software. I told him I didn't know but
    that the SSB were insistant on it. We then surmised that it was a
    leftover from one of the old Jack Smith SPEND SMART memos.
    
    George then told me about what is already in progress. A whole new
    policy on approvals, in particular how to buy software is currently
    going to the Senior Leadership Team for approval. George kindly offered
    to let me look at an advanced copy of the policy to see if I had any
    comments.
    
    He then told me that in future there will be no more of these mail
    message type things going round (like the SPEND SMART memos) that look
    like policies. Instead policies will be posted on VTX for all to see so
    that everybody is working off the same data. Nobody will be able to
    point at some ancient mail message to tell you why they can't let you
    do this or that. I thought this was real progress in the right
    direction. I commented that I thought it was late coming but better
    late than never.
    
    I then pointed out that the reason people have a lot of trouble with
    the system is that things don't happen quickly. I gave the example that
    my Windows NT SDK PO is apparently now in Purchasing but my secretary
    can't get anybody to return her calls or answer her mail messages
    to let us know when the damn software will be ordered. I made the
    strong suggestion that every suggested new policy should undergo the
    following test:
    
    	"Do we have the infrastructure in place to efficiently allow people
         to comply with policy? If not then go back to the drawing board.
    	 This will prevent policies being put in place that can't be
    	 executed efficiently and thus encourage people to go around the
         system."
    
    I finished up my conversation b taking the opportunity to ask about
    the vacation policy change that happened a few months ago. I got what I
    consider to be the definitive answer. Accrued vacation in total is
    carried as a liability on the balance sheet. The motivation for the
    new vacation policy was two fold:
    
    	a) To encourage people to take vacation. Employees need it.
    	b) Financial reasons. Basically if someone is on vacation they
    	   are effectively paid out of the liability account rather than
    	   an expense account. George didn't put it this way but of course
    	   that is an instant positive hit to INCOME, assuming of course
    	   that you disregard the direct income that would have been
           generated by the person being at work. My conclusion was that
    	   it is a policy that helps in turning a liability into income
    	   and hence this quarter profit.
    
    George mentioned that a lot of people had complained about the levels
    of signature required on things and how it was affecting productivity.
    
    In summary it appears that positive steps are being taken to prevent
    others from having to go through the hassles I'm going through. I
    hope these positive steps take place soon.
    
    In conclusion I'd like to thank George Potter for addressing my
    concerns.
    
    Dave

Re: .49:

   Dave, just when I was getting good and cynical, you have to tell a success
story of dealing with someone who seems rational!  It brings tears to my
eyes (no kidding, but I think it's from squinting at the DECnotes font
choices... ;-)

					-mjg

	Wow, people in this company with common sense. I'm impressed.
	Way to go George Potter!

							mike

    Re .48:
    
    > If someone chooses to sit on an idea it's not necessarily Delta's
    > place to go pounce on them or their boss.
    
    Yes, it is.
    
    > The value added by Delta is that now  they know WHO to work with,
    > near as I can tell.
    
    If that's all the value they provide, then fire the lot of them and put
    the information in the Digital phone directory.  That will make the
    same value available at a savings of millions of dollars.
    
    
    				-- edp

    re: .52
    
    Have you read Delta's literature?  Also, are you aware of how very
    small the actual organization is?  Your responses don't apparently 
    reflect knowledge of these things.
    
    Steve

    Re .53:
    
    If you have information you think is relevant, then present it; it
    serves no purpose to play guesses games asking questions about
    information you have.  It makes no difference does it make how small
    Delta is -- unless it is so small as to be cheaper than adding some
    information to the phone book.
    
    
    				-- edp

    re: .54
    
    The information I have is the same you could have if you chose to
    obtain it before coming to such rash conclusions about Delta.  Take a
    look at a Delta poster.  There are a few posted here and there in the 
    Mill, for example.  Read postings in DELTA_IDEAS.  Look at the form you 
    can use to submit an idea to Delta.  Call up a Delta person on the phone 
    and talk to them about their organization.  Or send mail.  I've done
    all this and it's easy to do.  There are only a few of them to talk to.
    
    Is it relevant?  Yes, but only if one chooses to pay attention to 
    facts.  You bear the burden of proving that Delta's mission is to push
    ideas through and that the company will save millions by canning the
    organization if your assertions are to have credance.  I am aware of no
    facts that support such assertions.  Evidence to the contrary is
    readily available from the aforementioned sources.
    
    Steve

    Oh well time for yet another update.
    
    My secretary came to me today to ask if I'd cancelled the order for the
    Microsoft Windows SDK. "No I haven't" I said, "what make you think
    that". She then proceeded to show me a neat little message out of the
    IPA system that said:
    
    	"Order cancelled by buyer"
    
    We surmised that "Buyer" meant somebody in Purchasing. She has gone
    back to discover exactly why the order has been cancelled, that's
    assuming of course she can get anybody to return her phone calls.
    
    I guess the nirvana system George Potter was telling me about isn't
    quite in place yet.
    
    Dave

    Thanks Dave for keeping the updates coming, this is getting
    really interesting! 

    i hope you finally get the software you want, please invite me
    to the party you'll throw to celebrate the arrival of the software
    when you finally get it , until then we all looking forward to hear
    more about this.

    \bye
    \nasser

Dave,

We needed a PC software package but don't have time to get VP approval, assuming
we could figure out who is the VP with signing authority for our cost center.
Everyone in the group chipped in $18 and now we have the software.  We figure
that Digital will recover the cost of the product in increased productivity
in about 1 week.

Bob

Hey, Dave's management.  He can afford to buy his engineers
a lousy SDK out of his own pocket...

    Sounds like what we should do is create a "Software Developers Bank".
    The way it would work as that we collect money from development groups
    that find themselves needing to buy PC development software. When a
    group needs some software they get a check from the treasurer and buy
    it. At the same time they put through the paperwork for Digital to
    pay the bill. When that payment comes through in a couple of months
    the money goes back into the bank. I'm sure we could set up a DCU
    account to do this through.
    
    				Alfred

    .-1
    
    Alfred
    
    good answer! good answer !
    
    \nasser

    And the saga continues.
    
    Today I received a package from Microsoft. I opened it. Inside were a
    number of floppies with the Microsoft WNT March Beta on it together
    with all the documention.
    
    I'm not 100% sure but I don't think I received this die to the order
    I'm trying to get through the system/purchasing. As I said yesterday
    the latest information I have there is that purchasing (the buyer)
    cancelled my order for as yet reasons unknown.
    
    But when I was talking to Microsoft weeks ago about the SNA Server they
    volunteered to send me a fre March SDK. I told them that I was already
    ordering one through official channels (little did I know how difficult
    that woyld turn out to be...) but if they wantedf to send me a gratis
    copy as well I wouldn't complain. well it appears the gratis copy has
    arrived before I've made it through the DEC bureauracy to order a
    proper copy. Now I guess I have to decide whether to try and cancel the
    real order. I guess we could do with two sets of documentation so I
    won't. I'm also interested to see exactly how long this process ill
    take.
    
    Meanwhile I still don't know where the order for Microsoft Office
    stands. Last I knew it was on its way to Larry Walker's desk. Guess I
    need to chase that up again in the morning...
    
    Dave
    
    PS Is anybody else going through the same sorts of hassles as me or
      is my situation unique? 

    Dave,
    
    You are not alone. Unfortunately. I'm managing a development effort
    and am finding it takes a lot of time (my time and elapsed time) and
    effort to get the software we need. Our finance person is great, and is
    helping work much of the system, but every day we get the request back
    with more questions. My hope is that eventually we'll get what we need.
    
    In some cases the team needed software very quickly, so I paid for it
    myself. I didn't bother putting in for it (~$200), because I knew the
    hassle we'd get. But reality and some bills hit last week and I decided
    to try and get reimbursed. This may have been a mistake - the request
    will be reviewed by various vp level folks, I've had to write
    justifications for my actions (which included a promise never to do
    this again), and it's taken up hours of my time, my managers time, and
    our finance persons time.
    
    Hassles abound. The good news is the result will be we'll cut expenses.
    The bad news is lots of folks are spending time dealing with this,
    rather than doing other work.
    
    Thorgan

Re: .62
No, Dave, you've got it all wrong!
Purchasing was being SO efficient that they knew you'd be
getting the freebie and wanting to cancel the original
before you even found out, so to save you the effort,
they cancelled it for you!

Well, I can dream, can't I?

><<< Note 2469.62 by SMAUG::GARROD "From VMS -> NT; Unix a mere page from history" >>>
>                            -< Today's installment >-
>
>    And the saga continues.
>    
    
>    PS Is anybody else going through the same sorts of hassles as me or
>      is my situation unique? 

        You are hardly unique in this circumstance. I have at the moment 
        about $112k of BTS software that is in the approval loops. I have
        $30k that has been approved up to Strecker's office and SSB won't/can't
        ship it, and the 1800software people tell us that they aren't allowed
        to ship to DEC internal customers until this mythical new BTS sw policy
        goes into effect.

        There is probably 3-4 hours per week going into trying to massage
        these two orders through the systems.

        	/jon

    OK, Jon, help us out.
    
    What is "BTS" software?
    
    What is Strecker's current assignment?
    
    Where are you in the org chart?

>
>      <<< Note 2469.66 by SDSVAX::SWEENEY "Patrick Sweeney in New York" >>>
>
>    OK, Jon, help us out.
>    
>    What is "BTS" software?

	"Break The Seal" in laymans terms and not Jack Smith talk - software
	for your PC on your desktop. You know like MSDOS, MS Office, Procomm,
	Borland C++, MSWINDOWS, etc.   Software that makes the hunk of sand
	on your desk do something useful. Software we have to buy from some
	one, and can't get legally over the net.
    
>    What is Strecker's current assignment?

	Bill Strecker is the Engineering VP reporting to Bob Palmer, and one
	of the members of the Senior Leadership Team (SLT).
    
>    Where are you in the org chart?

     Customers
      BOD & Shareholders	
	Palmer
	 Strecker
	  Demmer	VP of Computer Systems Group 
	   Harbert	 VP of OpenVMS Development
	    Guest	  OpenVMS Finance
	     Montague	   Capital and Infrastructure Management

Re: What is "BTS software"?
The rest of the world knows it as "Shrinkwrap" software, but we couldn't
use that term here because:
A) Its not a TLA
B) the term was "NIH"...

Well, I spoke to one of our lab support people today.  It seems our 
cost center is finally getting a few PCs!  Admittely they're just
DIAL detritus, but we may be able to assemble something usable.

But we can't yet.  They don't come with DOS licenses.

At fifty cents apiece, we need a VP signature.  Total for 15 PCs in our
BU?  Seven and a half bucks.  I'm sure Gresh will be real happy when we
start pestering him.

(And our auditors are VERY careful that we don't run unlicensed copies!)

re.67:

Isn't that org chart back-to-front? I'd expect:-

Customers
 Account Teams
  You	(assuming you give support for the people selling or delivering)
   Guest
    Harbert
     Demmer
	etc...

Dave.
   

    Re .55:
    
    > Take a look at a Delta poster. . . .
    
    Again you are just playing asinine games and not giving us any useful
    information.  I have the information I need about Delta; it does
    nothing useful and should be terminated.  If Digital could benefit from
    a suggestion program, then it ought to be reimplemented with people who
    will actually move their butts to get things accomplished.
    
    
    				-- edp

    >    a suggestion program, then it ought to be reimplemented with people who
>    will actually move their butts to get things accomplished.

    My experience is that the people working at DELTA do in fact work very
    hard to get things accomplished. I'd like to see them have a little
    more clout to get other people to respond though.

    			Alfred

.72 has hit the problem on the nose.  DELTA has no enforcement and no ability
to dictate policy.  This was their downfall.

	Dave

    re: .71
    
    Who's calling the kettle black?  At least I listed sources for my
    information.
    
    Steve

    Time for a status update.
    
    My secretary finally got a response from Larry Walker's secretary
    (Judy Viviano). It appears when Judy received the order for Larry's
    signature she recognized that it didn't have the Group Controller's
    signature (Sheldon Aronoff) on it so she sent it to him. Quite
    understandably she didn't spend her valuable time chasing it so she
    is not sure of the status of it. She is now going to chase them for it.
    
    The point of this story is that there is no individual doing a poor
    job. It is the system that is broken. I can understand fully that
    things that are important enough for Larry Walker to sign should also
    be signed by the Group Controller. My question is why does a $50
    software order need his signature in the first place.
    
    I'd love to tally up how many $s in time has been wasted on getting
    this order for Microsoft Office approved. Not to mention the fact that
    while we don't have it we can't learn Powerpoint to prepare
    presentations for the field, nor can I decode some Winword files
    without finding someone who has Winword.
    
    Dave 

    Well Dave, the other approach amounts to "do the expedient thing", buy
    the software yourself and put in for reimbursement.  A situation that
    happened in our group (just recently) illustrates the point.  An
    employee did not receive their paycheck because of an administrative
    mistake.  The cost center manager wrote out a personal check to the
    employee while the wheels cranked to correct the problem.  I like that.
    
    Mark

    .76
    
    I have, on several occasions, authorized an advance to cover an
    employee's check which didn't arrive for one reason or another.  Don't
    know what today's rules and regulations allow (or tolerate) anymore,
    though.
    
    Chet

    Re .74:
    
    > At least I listed sources for my information.
    
    No, you did not.  You provide no information.  The sources you listed
    were sources for nothing.
    
    I've seen Delta's posters.  I've dealt with Delta.  I've spoken with
    Delta people.  I've read what others have written about Delta.  I've
    given that information.  You have cried about how good Delta is but
    haven't backed it up with a damn thing.
    
    It's stupidity like that that is driving this company into the ground.
    
    
    				-- edp

    re: .78
    
    Nonsense.  And, your use of profanity is uncalled for ... 
    
    Steve

    what profanity? THe word "Damn"?
    
    whoa.
    
    q
    

    Heh,
    
    Would you guys please leave my note alone! I started this note to track
    exactly how inefficient and bureaucratic DEC has become; not for people
    tp exchange barbs. They've just opened a brand new version of SOAPBOX,
    please take the off subject notes there.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Dave 

    On the profanity... This is just a JOKE introduced for some humor
    
    In your note testing nasser's theory you said you wanted to be sure
    that some people would be able to "kick a little ass". Now I must
    protest! Just who are you calling a little a**. Oh you meant..
    nevermind!
    
    And now, ... back to our sponsor.
    

    i also support Dave Garrod position to keep this note dedicated 
    to his Saga is as far as getting his software that he has been waiting for
    for so long is considered.

    please lets keep this note to monitor Dave progress and wish him
    and his group the best in terms of the expedited arrival of the software
    that they want.

    We are all with you Dave, we are behind you on this, please keep up
    the good work and keep this note updated on this saga as it progress, and 
    please dont forget to invite me to the party when software arrives.

    we share your frustrations and feelings on this.

    yours in waiting,

    \bye
    \nasser
   
    who_cant_go_to_sleep_so_i_decided_to_look_see_what_is_up_in_DEC_these_days

Come on, you guys.  Take your scuffle outside.  It doesn't belong in this
conference.

Paul

co-moderator Digital

    
    Maybe we could sell tickets, eh Paul? :')
    
    
    
    Mike

    Time for another update.
    
    I now have the VP signature required authorizing the expenditure of
    $59.78. See attached. Amongst the approvals is a:
    
    a VP, a Group Financial Controller and 4 different managers including
    myself!
    
    As you'll see from the headers it took exactly 1 month from the day my
    secretary wrote up the order to the day it is submitted to SSB. Now
    let's monitor how long it takes SSB to process the order. Wonder if I
    have enough approvals here. I'm sure something must have been
    forgotten.
    
    Stay tuned for the next installment,
    
    Dave

From:	SMAUG::DOLORES      "Dolores Miller, LKG1-3/A10, 226-7947" 28-MAY-1993 13:56:06.01
To:	WMOIS::SDCISO
CC:	GARROD,DOLORES
Subj:	MICROSOFT Order; please expedite

From:	DELNI::WALKER       28-MAY-1993 13:44:27.82
To:	SMAUG::DOLORES
CC:	
Subj:	BTS Software Approval

I approve of the attached BTS Microsoft order for $59.78.

Larry Walker
Vice President, Networks Engineering
Badge (***)

********************
From:	DELNI::S_ARONOFF    17-MAY-1993 10:41:45.56
To:	WALKER
CC:	S_ARONOFF
Subj:	I approve the attached BTS Microsoft order

From:	DELNI::WALKER       14-MAY-1993 17:00:28.90
To:	DELNI::S_ARONOFF
CC:	
Subj:	BTS request for your approval prior to Larry's..../judy

From:	SMAUG::DOLORES      "Dolores Miller, LKG1-3/A10, 226-7947" 29-APR-1993 15:40:30.32
To:	DELNI::WALKER
CC:	DOLORES
Subj:	Approval needed for SDC MICROSOFT Order

From:	EMDS::DORMITZER    "RALPH * 223-2146 * MLO6A-3/T96" 29-APR-1993 15:36:00.90
To:	SMAUG::DOLORES,RDGENG::A_CLAXTON
CC:	DORMITZER
Subj:	I APPROVE PURCHAGE OF SDC MICROSOFT Order - RALPH DORMITZER, 145417

From:	SMAUG::DOLORES      "Dolores Miller, LKG1-3/A10, 226-7947" 29-APR-1993 09:01:48.10
To:	EMDS::DORMITZER
CC:	DOLORES
Subj:	Approval needed for SDC MICROSOFT Order

From:	RDGENG::A_CLAXTON    29-APR-1993 08:37:54.13
To:	SMAUG::DOLORES
CC:	
Subj:	Software Package approval for $59.78

Dolores,

I approve the purchase of this software package for $59.78 and the 
potential royalty charge.

Please note that this should be sent to Ralph Dormitzer before Larry 
Walker.

Regards, Allen



From:	RDGENG::A_CLAXTON    29-APR-1993 11:54:55.11



From:	DELNI::SMAUG::DOLORES      "Dolores Miller, LKG1-3/A10, 226-7947" 28-APR-1993 15:46:54.35
To:	DELNI::A_CLAXTON
CC:	DELNI::BRENNAN,GARROD,DOLORES
Subj:	Approval needed for SDC MICROSOFT Order

   




      Approvers:

      Please find attached an order for Microsoft Software.
      The total amount is $59.78 (plus royalty that will later 
      get charged to CC, less than $300.)  Justification is 
      attached.  Please approve and forward to the next person
      on the list. (SDC requests VP approval)

      Thank you.

      Required approvals:


               CC 33H Mgr:   Allen Claxton     DELNI::A_CLAXTON
                             Ralph Dormitzer   EMDS::DORMITZER
                             Larry Walker      DELNI::WALKER

                
            RETURN TO:  SMAUG::DOLORES






                           U.S. SOFTWARE SUPPLY BUSINESS
                                   WESTMINSTER MA
                            508-874-3023 OR DTN 241-3023
     
               PLEASE RETURN FORM TO WMOIS::SDCISO OR SDCISO @WMO      
                      PLEASE FILE A COPY FOR FUTURE USE

    	         *** U.S.S.S.B. INTERNAL SOFTWARE ORDER FORM ***

      		         (REVISED ORDER FORM 1993)                      
   REQUESTOR:    

    BADGE #     |   135821
    REQUESTOR   |   Dolores Miller                           
    COST CENTER |   33H           
    DTN/EXT     |   226-7947                                            
    EMAIL       |   SMAUG::DOLORES                                         	
                                             
   AUTHORIZE:                
                                                           
                                              
    BADGE#      |                             
    NAME        |                                     	      
    COST CENTER |                                  

   SHIP TO:

    ATTN TO     | DAVID GARROD
    BADGE #     | 91409
    MAIL STOP   | LKG1-3/A10
    SHIP TO     | DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION
    ADDRESS     | 550 KING STREET
    CITY        | LITTLETON
    STATE       | MA
    ZIP CODE    | 01450
    PHONE #     | (508)486-7114
                                                                            		                               
    
    NOTE:  OUR CYCLE TIME IS 3 WORKING DAYS UPON RECEIPT OF ORDER   
    
    PUT AN "X" IN ONE OF THE FOLLOWING SHIP METHODS:  
                    
          BESTWAY SURFACE  [ X  ]   OR  OTHER  [   ]        
    
    CHECK LIST: HAVE YOU FILLED IN ALL REQUIRED INFORMATION?

    WARNING   : THIRD-PARTY SOFTWARE MAY BE SUBJECT TO ROYALTY EXPENSE WHICH 
                WILL BE CHARGED TO YOUR COST CENTER.  AN INTERNAL LICENSE 
                (1 PER CPU) MUST BE ORDERED FOR EACH SOFTWARE PRODUCT LISTED 
                ON THE QUARTERLY MEMO "REQUIRED INTERNAL LICENSE ORDERING", 
                SENT ELECTRONICALLY TO ALL U.S. COST CENTER MANAGERS.  FOR 
                MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT ROYALTY ADMINISTRATION (SEE YOUR
                DEC DIRECTORY).
                IT IS AGAINST YOUR EMPLOYEE AGREEMENT TO REPRODUCE OR 
                TRANSFER SOFTWARE TO ANY ENTITY OUTSIDE OF Digital OR ANY 
                OTHER ORGANIZATION INSIDE OF Digital Equipment Corporation.
         
       PUT AN "X" IN ONE:  CURRENT  [ X  ]    OR   ARCHIVE  [   ]
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    |MODEL NUMBER |VERSION|            DESCRIPTION                   |QUANTITY|
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                       
    QB-MK3AA-SA                  MICROSOFT SOFTWARE                  1



    
  JUSTIFICATION:

    This software is required for the following reasons:

      1)  To print off Microsoft Word files that we regularly get.
      2)  To prepare Powerpoint Presentations which is now the format
          for all of our product presentations have to be in for the field.




    

 >I now have the VP signature required authorizing the expenditure of
 >$59.78. See attached. 

    Great work Dave!!

    keep it up!

    lets see if you can get this software before x-mass !

    or may be if you lucky you'll even get it before the turkeys are handed
    out to DECeees in or around the November time frame ?

    any way, we all are rooting for you ! 

    \bye
    \nasser

Dave,

Do you have any idea of how much this silliness has cost Digital in your time,
your admin person's time, approver's time, etc?

Bob

    au contrare, Bob.  Look how much Digital did NOT spend on software by
    discouraging many, many people from ordering the software for their
    personal use.
    
    Mark

    It's update time again folks. Drum roll please:
    
    Drrrrrrrrr  UUUUU MMMM     RRRRRRRR ooo LLL LLLL
    
    On Friday June 11th 1993 a package arrived in my office containing the
    Microsoft Office Software. A mere month and a half from when I first
    wanted it.
    
    Now would anybody like to benchmark the process Digital uses for
    getting PC software against say. Calling an 800 number with a credit
    card and saying please ship me xxx.
    
    Regarding the NT SDK. I cancelled the paperwork for that, while I was
    trying to get the paperwork through the system Microsoft shipped me a
    free Advanced Server WNT along with a load of other stuff.
    
    Now I guess it is time to contact Mr George Potter to see how the new
    and glorious process for ordering software is doing and whether it is
    in place yet.
    
    Dave

>    Now would anybody like to benchmark the process Digital uses for
>    getting PC software against say. Calling an 800 number with a credit
>    card and saying please ship me xxx.
 
	It works in the UK, phone a number, give your credit card, I could
	have picked it up the same day, or have it delivered in 2.

	It took 3 days for microsoft to send me a print driver, so the 
	delvery times are good.

	However, if you are not paying real money, but internal pretend
	paperwork, your mileage may vary.

	Heather