Conference 7.286::digital

    Wake up and smell the coffee.
    
    As a field employee, I've been watching the steady exodus of talented,
    motivated sales support and delivery people increase steadily in the
    last six to nine months.  Good people in the field don't hang around
    waiting to be TFSO'd.  A friend once told me:  Its hard to remain
    unemployed when you're a good salesman.
    
    US Field management knows about this and the problem it is creating. 
    Locally, some of our most senior and talented people are streaming out
    the door to our competitors, and morale is plummeting.  
    
    But management says little about it, seemingly content to watch it
    happen.     

    
    .1
    
    No, I'm not surprised; and in fact I'm not having any olfactory
    problems either.
    
    I want to have a discussion about it. I want to compile some
    information.  I want to know whether senior management knows
    about it.  I want to know that there is a some kind of plan
    to address and fix the problem.  I want to know how bad the
    problem is.  
    
    Glenn
    

    >I want to have a discussion about it. I want to compile some
    >information.  
    
    	Laudable.
    
    >I want to know whether senior management knows about it.  
    
    	I'm sure they do.
    
    >I want to know that there is a some kind of plan to address and fix the
    >problem.  
    
    	I seriously doubt it.
    
    >I want to know how bad the problem is.  
    
    	Bad -- and it's going to get worse.
    

It's possible that it is NOT considered a problem by Senior Management.

Bob

As I understand it normal attrition was one avenue being
counted on (the others retirerment and TFSO) to help bring
the total company employment to the 85K-90K number. However
what isn't clear is how the normal attrition faucet will get
turned off once the desired population is reached esp. in light
of the *seemingly* large numbers being lost to it. Maybe
a steady leak is being factored in ?

    maybe management thinks it's for the long-term good of the individuals
    that they leave now given the different type of talent needed in the
    future?
    Mark
    

    	Lots of software engineers are either leaving or looking. Besides
    the layoffs, cuts in benefits, pay stagnation, and other "corporate"
    factors, there is little or no evidence that Digital can be or wants to
    be a software company. We are behind the curve in software development
    technology and making no large-scale attempt to catch up. There is no
    cohesive software strategy that I'm aware of. So any software engineer
    who's at all interested in his or her career should be keeping their
    eyes and ears open, working on improving marketable skills, keeping
    contacts with people on the outside, and keeping aware of job
    opportunities elsewhere. If things continue in the current direction, I
    think there will be a MASS EXODUS of software engineers from this
    company. If upper management doesn't want this to happen, then they had
    better be aware of this and start to act soon.

   What is paramount is that this company becomes profitable. If
   we can't manage to do that, well, do I need to go on ?

   What's unfortunate are the consequences as you have noted. Good
   people are leaving in droves. I don't think that can be helped.
   The other aspect is the company is transforming do a service
   oriented company with a few core products. DEC simply will not
   required as many employees in the future. I have seen DEC cancel
   a project, layoff people, and negotiate with a vendor to build
   the very same product. From a business point of view, it was cheaper
   for DEC to do that [so I'm told]. From a employee point of view,
   it was very painful.




 

    Do they know about it?  Heck there counting on it. I've talked to
    more then one (sounds better then two) level 2 managers and have seen
    a couple of business plans that specificly state that the only way
    said product will be profitable will be to loose top field engineers
    and replace them this lower paid engineers.  One manager came out and
    stated that the future was not bright for some of our more senior
    engineers. Attrition is easy from a corporate standpoint. To start the
    ball rolling, simply allow conditions to decay. No batteries for your
    pagers, no office supplies, no raises, "oops, bad performace rating
    this time". The process is self feeding and saves the company money at
    the same time. The process is easy to slow down as well. Simply tell
    your employees that things are looking better and that they might be in
    line for a better raise. Human nature is such that must people will
    feel "important" and want to stay.  You can stop it all together by
    telling everyone that we are "out of the woods and looking to hire."
    They dont actually have to hire anyone or give anyone a raise. Thats
    the beauty of it.
    
    	I suspect the new structure and course of the company is very
    different then any one would expect. We seem (opinion on) to be moving
    to a company full of consultants with a great deal fewer full time
    employees. An example that I've seen shows a model where one or two
    super techs with several "less technical" engineers  are responsable
    for large desktop contracts. (opinion off)
    
    	I've seen whole org's go away without any desire to replace them.
    My position in regional support is changing to one of customer
    consultant rather then "please help me get my system up" like it use
    to be. I believe that anyone that can ride the storm out and fill a
    nitch in the "new" company will be rewarded. I also believe that those
    niches will be darn hard to find by design.
    
    jim
    
    	

Re "maybe that's the plan", see note 2431.

    
    I too think that it is a plan. Here at Hudson, we are hiring college
    hires. I've seen some pretty hot engineers leave, but when I think
    about it, they were probably college hires once themselves. As long as
    Digital can hunt down and attract top whiz kids, at a high entry salary
    that's still low compared to a principal engineer, we'll still be able
    to generate ideas and products to support profitability. Yes, the BEST
    may be leaving. But many GOOD people, for various reasons, will stay,
    and will train the new engineers who will be the next generation of
    BEST. 
    
    Another thing to note: new hires are a LOT more flexible. As the
    company changes, they are least likely to suffer from morale problems,
    or to resist changes which reduce their over-glorified "engineer"
    status. The fact is, we NEED more new young engineers who can focus on
    the marketing strategy which Digital plans to enact (one of these
    days!) Right now, there's still a lot of resistance to making marketing
    the company focus.
    
    The other thing, which I've noted in hiring: you often get a LOT more
    work out of a fresh new junior engineer than you do out of an older
    more seasoned one. I remember putting in 60 hours just because I didn't
    have anything better to do! I'm not saying that older engineers never
    put in large amounts of time, but I've seen people cut back over the
    years as work lost its importance compared to family and other outside
    interests.
    
    EVENTUALLY, Digital will have to adjust, as the number of available
    college hires diminishes, and a large percentage of the workforce
    DEMANDS quality time and a MAXIMUM 40 hour week. But until that's a
    reality, Digital will be able to squeeze something more from young
    people... like all companies do.
    
    Another thing to note: Digital is significantly emphasizing career
    development within the corporation. The course I took a few months ago
    talked about the idea of re-adjusting beliefs in promotion as the only
    reward for work effort. They discussed lateral moves, "re-alignment" -
    accepting a lower rank in order to learn totally new skills, and
    relocation, as major career possibilities. Some people are going to
    leave just because they can't see beyond the promotion. Others will
    leave because they realize that what THEY want to do isn't at Digital.
    And others will stay...
    
    But Digital wouldn't be teaching these things if they didn't recognize
    that they are HELPING some folks leave on their own, and helping others
    to appropriately reposition, or be prepared to get TFSO'ed.
    
    As we streamline projects and products, there will only be so many hot
    ones to go around. It has to be that way. Even if we lose someone hot,
    we also have all the benefits of having HAD that person. Its time to
    get used to a more dynamic workforce...
         

    There is only one catch to this if in fact it has been planned.
    The catch is called 'Learning Curve'.   Although Computers are not
    rocket science being a great desing, manufacturing, field service, etc.
    requires time, training and nurturing, especially in big companies like
    DEC.
    
    The real question is a matter of timing and flexibility.   Why ?   If
    the economy really gets better and we lost a sizeable amount of 'good'
    talent, then the issue will become: can we do what we have to do with
    the un-trained/low morale resources that we will have and the most
    probable outcome will be that the ball will get drop in a few projects.
    
    So, the total outcome of this situation may be that when times get
    better and we expect that companies get better, the bigger ones that
    have consistently re-sized their workforce, maybe negatively impacted
    by the fact that they are un-able (lack of flexibility) to comply with
    their customers demands and expectations at all levels.
    
    The benefit will be for smaller companies that can 'turn on a dime'
    they will be the ones that will satisfy those customers.   Therefore
    gaining more market-share.   Now since this economic cycle is vicious
    and repetitive, the next time around the now not so big company will
    have an even worst time.

Some colleagues pointed out that my "see note 2431" looked as though I
was saying that the plan is to get rid of SW engineers by demoralizing
them by outsourcing SW product development to India. I don't believe
that there's any intention to demoralize people, and certainly not that
way. Rather, there's an understanding that some of this must take place
in any radical shift in the way we operate. It's unfortunate, but unavoidable.

My point in .10 was that we're evolving toward outsourcing some
software engineering, and that some of the people who are leaving are
doing so partly because they see this trend.

In a previous life, I worked at an aerospace company.
Their standard practice was to squeeze pay & benefits, while
monitoring the attrition rates, until some rate was exceeded.
Then, with fanfare, they would announce an expanded pay raise pool/better
benefit/etc. and slowly, quietly, start squeezing again.

What that got them over time, was a mediocre workforce, as the best,
most motivated, and most marketable folks left and the rest stayed...

Digital has a lot of built-up loyalty in its workforce, even still, but it
won't last forever.  I see nothing to keep the above scenario from happening
here.

Kevin

    Re: .14
    
    > Digital has a lot of built-up loyalty in it's work force...
    
    Not any more.

    RE: 14
    
    Yikes, I resent that.  I am talented and loyal to DEC (sort of).  I'd
    leave too, but I'm waiting for the TFSO so I can collect for a year and
    finish my Master's at the same time ... you know, kick back and relax,
    since right now I'm busting my butt working 50+ hours a week and going
    to school every night besides.
    
    To me, the TFSO will be a bonus!
    
    Tammi

    The goal is to have a profitable company. That does not mean a $13B
    company with all the same Hardware and Software products and as many
    people producing and selling them.
    
    Unisys was a $14B company losing money, now they are a $8B company in
    the black ! Guess what, the shareholders are happy ! I am a loyal and
    somewhat talented employee who hopes to be here when we are once again
    in the black. Keeping all the talent while going out of business is not
    smart and I may have to leave, but I hope not.

    
    
    Having worked for Uselessness at one time, I can tell you that it is
    a wonderful example of how a company can become profitable through
    unethical actions an a systematic screwing of the "little guy"
    
    Witness the cancelling of retiree medical benefits and managment's 
    attempts to quash a shareholder proposal to limit executive
    compensation.
    
    Ed_a_Unisys_shareholder.
    

Many brainy people will continue leave, this is an industry trend created 
by advancements in technology. 

in the next 10 years, few engineers will be required to play with CAD systems 
that will virtually design circuits themselves and generate the fabrication 
sequence for a 100+ million transistor into a single chip. Hook a terminal 
and keyboard so mortal beings can communicate with this chip and you have 
just built a computer system. You see not many brains will be required for 
Digital's core business.

Oh as for field service, these chips will be order of magnitudes more reliable 
to the point where they are considered trouble free.

i am exaggerating a little bit but there is some truth to it, it is ironic 
that such advancements in technology were created by the same people who will 
lose their jobs. Seen any science fiction lately where computers rule ?

    I think innovative and creative people are accustomed to carving out
    their own niches, changing job functions every few years (often through
    making their own jobs obsolete), taking risks and accepting the 
    failures as well as the rewards.  They can't stay happy in jobs where 
    they are locked into a position (i.e. a "dead end").
    
    Steve

    It seems likely that the most highly-trained, highly-paid professionals
    will be the first to be replaced by the supercomputer-on-a-chip that
    will be here within the next 5 years. Medicine and law will be among
    the first professions to become computerized, as they are principally
    jobs in which huge amounts of information must be manipulated
    successfully. Diagnostic medicine and most law are essentially just
    exercises in logic-tree pathways.
    
    Perhaps when we have a "national health plan," everyone will simply be
    issued a "doc in a box."		8')
    
    
    

    that is why we need more AI systems. if we did, we can get the expert
    to put his or her expert knowledge in the software expert system 
    knowledge data base, so when they leave their knowledge dont go with
    them too.

    how many times i asked for such things and nothing seem to be done
    about it in this company.

    now we see the price. we should still start doing it now even if it
    is little later, but as they say better late than never.

    \bye
    \nasser

    I thought that "\nasser" **was** an AI system.
    

    no, a lot of artificial but no intelligence.

    >no, a lot of artificial but no intelligence.

    OMIGOD! 

    can you believe this guy saying this on me right here in front of
    hundreds of thousands of DECeees just like that?

    i cant believe this!

    ok, you forced me to say it, i think you are a BIG DOODLE . sorry i could 
    not help it. iam soory for the other DECeees to have to hear this, but
    i had to say something, did not know how else to handle this matter.
    
    iam out of here, this is too much.
    
    \nasser

Certainly what .25 meant to say was 

    "No, a lot of intelligence but no artificial."

Clearly a typo...

;-)

Dave W.

    
    Before this note deteriorates completely, can I make a suggestion?
    
    How about posting a reply that lists people you know who have
    left *voluntarily* over the past six months.  Not their names,
    but their jobs, level of experience, and your subjective
    assessment of their performance.  I realize that this is
    all anecdotal, but I'm trying to gauge whether there is a
    possibility of a turnaround, or whether our best and brightest
    are really baling in large numbers.
    
    Glenn

    2 Principal Software Engineers - excellent performers - lots of
    experience
    

    1 Senior Software Engineer, 1 Principal Software Engineer.  Both
    Excellent and under utilized.  Both have left the company.

re:.23

	We (DEC) are on the fore front of AI...its called management.

3 network consultants - one in each of CT, NY, and FL - These are field people
with many, many years of experience with multivendor networking.  Each one
personally responsible for bringing in many dollars either through direct
customer consulting or support sales efforts.   All three were hired by 
their customers.  CT guy actually left with a pay cut just because he had had
enough.  

1 network engineer from Networks Engineering - very high level, great in front 
of customers too.  Now working for a competitor in Massachusetts.

    
    1 software consultant (former principal engineer for X.500) who took COD
    reloc to Santa Clara.  Went to work for Cisco and got a $10K raise.
    
    

Some more who have left.

One Senior Engineer, did GEEP, stayed 2 years, good Motif skills. >$15K 
Raise

Two Senior Software Consultants skilled in EDA market, (this is in Silicon 
Valley). One got $12K, one got $19K

One Senior engineer with graphics and NT experience.  Several offers, look 
like will take $15k raise.  One offer much higher.

Two very senior sales types, both got $10K raises with additional potential 
commisions.

One software consultant skilled in Objectivity and ODI development.  Took 
job at $95K.

It seems to take about 3-4 weeks of letting people know you are looking to 
get an offer.  Less than a week if you do it part time.  This is in the 
valley with some relevant skills.

Matt

	In the UK, since January 92, we have lost 25 field experts in
	Software Engineering (aka CASE) and Information Management.
	These included at least one CASE and IM Partner, and several
	others of equivalent standing. They represented nearly all
	the people able to do a convincing demo, presentation, or
	workshop with customers.

	These people averaged several years of experience, and were
	the only class of employees able to sell Digital's CASE products
	effectively to customers. Sales people (with the odd exception
	who used to be a programmer and has kept up to date) cannot do
	this, because they don't understand either the technology or
	the business of writing and maintaining software.

	Oddly enough, the UK's CASE revenues have been dwindling.

	Isn't it funny how a bear likes honey?

	/Tom

    re: .18
    
    Ed,
    
    Three years ago when we were in New Hire training together you were
    complaining about Unisys, and it appears the axe is still being ground. 
    As someone who spent 11 years there (and who was laid off) I will
    assert that they are no more ethical/unethical, good/evil, etc. etc.
    than any other large corporation in the US today.  People are getting
    screwed everywhere these days.
    
    GIVE IT A REST!!!
    
    Robbie_who_is_also_a_Unisys_stockholder
    

    
    
    I have a right to my opinion.  I think they are sleaze.  Ask those
    who lost their retiree medical benefits how they feel.  As a taxpayer,
    ask yourself if you want to foot the bill for their renigging on an
    agreement with people who served them for many years.
    
    It is well enough for you to be happy about the 11 years you spent with
    them and then getting a nice severence.  As an employee of a small
    company they acquired, my treatment was not as nice, I can assure you.
    
    -Ed
    

ref: .34

I would like to agree with Matt and add more fuel to this fire.
On the sales support and marketing side we have lost at least
the following - VOLUNTARILY!

Software Consultant II - 12 years with DEC - heavy U* experience.
Left with a signifcant! increase. Also had experience in product
management.  Went to SUN.

Software Consultant II - 13+ years with DEC - VMS, U* and some
experience with NT.  Left with a significant increase and went to
SUN.  Money was not the only issue, a *challenging* job had more
to do with it than money.

Software Consultant II - heavy X-windows experience - VMS and U*
background - Couldn't take it anymore and decided to become an
outside consultant.  At least 10+ years with DEC.

Software Consultant I - heavy U* and VMS background - Excellent
slaes support and had done a stint with DEC as a manager.  Appx
10 years with DEC.

Software Consultant I - heavy in multi-media and U* Was at one point
hired into the emergin Ultrix resource center - 4 or 5 years with DEC.

Software Consultant I - office and PC specialities - went to SUN to help
bolster their move into the commerical market.

Software Specialist IV - specialized in U* sales support - appx 3 years  
with DEC.

This list does not even include sales.  You will notice the loss of 
the U* talent.  If this company is going to succeed in selling U* maybe
we need to find a way to keep the people who we have been losing in 
hoards.  Most U* vendors don't even consider Digital a player in the 
U* market anymore (if we ever where!).  Perhaps losing some of our
best support people to the competition may have soemthing to do with that!

Next on the list could be all the talent we lost out of Palo ALto with
the loss of WSE, TRI-Add, WSL and the list goes on.  Most of these people
went to our competitors.  No wonder we are finding it hard to compete!

-anne

Greetings from the field,

We had a excellant field service engineer quit this week. It was almost
as tough as watching the TFSO's happen. Though this engineer was junior
to me I enjoyed working with him and saw him as the future of the company.
I guess noone really is that significant but certian personality types
are what the company needs, I think. 

So what are we doing here? I remember reading (dare I say the name..)K.O.
say how tough it was when the people left and started Data General. I
thought at the time that it took alot of character to make a call like that
and watch the consequences unfold. I wish I heard some direction from
the top, something more instructive than...there will be a contrinuation
of te TFSO's. Within reason how about something like there is a cunning
plan behind...no pay raises or no training worth squat available. It 
seems odd that if services and software are two of the three legged 
milkstool that will be the new and improved Digital those who are left
had better kick butt in the silicon.

Fred Mudgett

    re .11
    
    Not!  Here at DECwest, we TFSO'd most of the college hires we brought
    on the year before.

    Dave Cutler and the heart of the MICA O/S development team left
    Digital, not because of the money, but because Gates allowed them the
    opportunity to make a significant contribution to software product
    technology.  ...And yes all of them are millionaires today.
    
    Prism is now Alpha (5 years late)
    MICA is now NT (and owned by MS).
    
    
    

    
    Principal software engineer.  Leaving next week.

    re .40
    
    The "most" is an exaggeration!
    
    We actually TFSO'ed two (2) recent grads in the December thing. That
    was less than 15% of the number on board (and the rest are still here).
    
    The two that were TFSO'ed were associated with a cancelled project.

    About a year ago, I wen't to the farewell for a 20 yr+ former employee, He
    mentioned that I might find some software that he wrote, useful for
    something I was working on. I wen't to check out his account, it had
    been deleted. After 4-5 attempts, I found someone who hadn't been
    TFSO'd or SERP'd. The account had been backed up, but no, they were to
    busy, and short staffed to restore it for me. This meant about two
    weeks extra work for me, instead of an hour or two. THose backup tapes,
    would no doubt be into a cyclical rotation, and I am willing to bet,
    that their is now absolutely no evidence of the prolific and useful
    software that that engineer wrote (apart from the project work, he was
    doing).
    
    At the same time, a neighbour, who works for a Fortune 50 who
    supplies DEC with Bulk raw materials, lamented that he was now up to
    the 5th DEC contact for contract negotiations in 6 months. He rang
    monday morning, just to make sure that he was still talking to the same
    person. After #3, he would send copies of documentation to date, to
    each new DEC person to keep them up to date, with what their
    predecessors have done.
    
    I hate to think how much wisdom, not only technical but business, has
    been lost... I have yet to see anyone transitioned, who has had a
    functional debriefing of their responsibilty before they went.
    
    Another cohort, was a DEC CS Business manager, coming in well over
    budget, he proposed some new business ideas. DEC's outlay, under $20K,
    probable returns, $400K. No one would listen, so he did it himself,
    cost him $10K to set up, he has made $1.2M out of it, on his own, and
    has customers clamoring for more...
    
    When will we learn...
    
    q
    

re: .43

	What is WATCH_MAIL ?  And where might one aquire it ?


	Thanks.
	o
	m

WATCH_MAIL is a "program" (it's written in DCL - clever but misguided :-)
which you arrange to run as a periodic batch job when you're away,
or even when you're at work but you don't want to talk to anyone.

It reads your new mail and returns a canned reply to senders.
It includes logic to ensure that a given sender only gets one
copy of the reply (rather than one per sent message) and allows
yuo to exlcude specific source addresses.   

    I gather a copy of Watch Mail was sent to the author of .45 -- but how
    about posting a pointer to the latest version, or a pointer to a
    pointer?  I need a new copy too; I think the version I have broke with
    some VMS upgrade.
    
    
    				-- edp

    Re .48:
    
    There's a pointer and installation script in Metoo::SW_Tools_Catalog
    notes 1549.0 and 1549.1.
    
    
    				-- edp

[This got forwarded to me (with no attribution) by someone who thought it might
be appropriate here but didn't want to post it themselves - Steve]

>MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif. (July 15, 1996) -- Silicon Graphics today
>unveiled a new software product family, Cosmo[tm] Resign[tm].  Cosmo
>Resign is a Web- and Java[tm]-based, robust, flexible, scalable,
>object-oriented multimedia resignation management architecture with a
>user-friendly, drag-n-drop interface.
>
>"With Cosmo Resign, Silicon Graphics moves into the forefront of
>Resignation Management Systems (RMSes)," said Tom Jermoluk, president
>and COO of Silicon Graphics.  "Our industry-leading attrition rate
>has given us strong practical experience with resignation processes
>and paradigms.  We quickly identified the need for resignation
>management as a great market opportunity, and went from prototype to
>announcement in only one month, once again engaging in the quick
>time-to-announce that has made us the industry's product announcement
>leader."
>
>The Cosmo Resign suite includes:
>
>Cosmo Resign Create--for intuitive, drag-n-drop, plug-n-play, look-n-feel,
>beavis-n-butthead authoring of multimedia resignation letters
>
>Cosmo Resign Create 3D--for those times when a flat doodle just isn't
>enough to express the gesture you *really* mean
>
>Cosmo Resign Player--a Netscape Navigator[tm] plugin for viewing
>resignations, based on the Visual Resignation Modeling Language
>(VRML) 2.0 ("Moving Jobs") specification
>
>Cosmo Resign Color--for ensuring that the language in your resignation
>letter is just as colorful on your manager's screen as it was on yours
>
>Cosmo Resign MineSet--a powerful suite of resignation letter analysis
>tools to help gather statistics on why all those damn employees left
>
>Silicon Graphics also announced its partnership with Lateral Mobility
>Inc., developers of the popular ResumeQuik[tm], WebCounterOffer[tm] and
>X-It-InterVue[tm] products.  "When combined with Lateral Mobility's
>family of employee dissatisfaction tools, Cosmo Resign provides a total
>integrated get-out-the-door-fast solution for Silicon Valley employees,"
>said Ed McCracken, Chairman and CEO of Silicon Graphics.  "Where employee
>turnaround was once measured in years, now it will be measured in weeks
>or even days, industry-wide."
>
>The Cosmo Resign suite is slated to ship in the first half of
>calendar 199[mumble].
>
 

    RE: Cosmo Resign
    
    Of course, Digital probably already did that software years ago with a
    character-cell interface but the whole team got TFSO'd before they
    could finish their VTX interface.
    
    :-) :-)
    
    				-John

    
     Brains draining at the top of Compaq, also....
    
      Off 'the wires':
     
               Buried in the announcement of a major reorganization at Compaq
              Computer was word that a key executive, Gary Stimac, had
              resigned. Stimac a 14-year veteran, is widely credited with
              expanding Compaq's server business, the company's most
              profitable segment. [Information Week] 
    
        -----------------------------------------------------------------
    
              Cooley To Call It Quits -- Influential channel figure to 
              leave by year's end
    
              The two executives credited with engineering Compaq Computer
              Corp.'s climb to the top of the PC market are leaving.
              [Computer Reseller News] 
    
      

    Is the John Rose who's replacing Stimac the same ex Digit who used to
    run DEC's PC business when we were working with Tandy?

    Yup, same John Rose.