Conference 7.286::digital

    
     See it all the time , A customer with a 4000 running pathworks and
    a pc's are hanging , connections lost ect. The only problem the network
    is their cable run going through (insert network company here) bridges
    router ect and it's our problem. A co-worker sent to Managment a list
    of time spent on this kind of thing and it went into a black hole.
     We need to be up front with the customer in what we cover in these
    cases and make it clear what is billable. This will take a change in 
    attitude by first level managment who just want the customer off their
    back.

    So why, in this brave new world of employee empowered Digital, can we
    not write a service contract that includes all these cheap and nasty
    commodity products at an appropriate price and sell it to the customer
    if that's what they want?
    
    I think I know the answer, but it's not repeatable, even in the company
    that reads this Notesfile :-) !
    

    
    My awnser is the customer won't pay . Why should they if they get it
    for free. Would you??

    I think part of what is needed is to recognize that part of our value
    added is in being a "total solution" vendor.  Our customers apparently
    already know that.  We (sometimes begrudgingly) provide it.  In the 
    customer's eyes they're paying for it already.  And, it's competitive 
    because the competition is support from cheap vendors (nonexistant) and 
    support from third parties (way too expensive).  If we're making money, 
    we should SELL the fact that we ARE supporting the cheap stuff.  If we
    aren't making money at it, we should RAISE the price AND SELL the fact
    that we're supporting the cheap stuff.  And, I agree that we need to
    state up front (in writing?) exactly what it is that we are supporting.
    
    This summer, with the advent of Windows NT and other "events" I expect
    that Digital has an opportunity that can be exploited.  Ironically, the
    more "cheap" stuff customers buy, the more demand there will be for a
    "total solutions" vendor that can support it, IMO.
    
    Steve

>    So why, in this brave new world of employee empowered Digital, can we
>    not write a service contract that includes all these cheap and nasty
>    commodity products at an appropriate price and sell it to the customer
>    if that's what they want?
    
>    I think I know the answer, but it's not repeatable, even in the company
>    that reads this Notesfile :-) !
    
We do this all the time...  I'm missing your point...

So what, you wake up on the wrong side of the bed???

    Recently, because we've had alot of LOR's related to things like this,
    we've decided to propose to the customers that have these sorts of
    problems regularly an 'open PO' arrangement whereby they can get the 
    undivided attention of someone to work their problem for a fee - rather
    than 'when sales support is available' - all too often the problems we
    encounter are beyond the expertise of the local CS folks, and sales
    support (me and others like me) get pulled in to diagnose a network
    problem or performance problems...  strangely enough, the customers are
    JUMPING at the opportunity!  We're initiating a capacity assessment &
    performance analysis next week - what we used to do for free to
    leverage hw/sw upgrades, we're finallly getting paid for!  I think this
    is where Russ G and MIke Howard are going with moving sales support 
    into professional services.....

    Sales has Third Party EIS to purchase third party products, then they
    get to "fix" the total solution.  When they come to us and ask for a
    total solution which includes making sure things are going to work
    together they complain that the price is too high.  Sometimes after
    they sell it through 3rd Party they come back at us to fix the
    problems.  We have to do it but the company looses big time.  Short
    sighted people cause the problem.

    Maybe Digital needs to adopt the same policy as the U.S. phone
    companies - 

    If you complain to your local phone company ("Baby Bells", NYNEX,
    Southwestern Bell, etc) that your phone doesn't work and they finds it
    is because *you* have screwed up the wiring in your own house, they
    automatically charge you a big penalty ($50 minimum).  Anybody know how 
    successful this policy has been for them?  Maybe we need a similar
    policy for our support service?


    							-Paul

re: -1

No question we are among the worst negotiators in the business and need 
to get better about charging our customers for the entire value of the 
support we provide them. But neither are we a regulated monopoly like 
the telephone companies.

If I get charged $50 for my own screw-up, I can whine and complain all I 
want but I'm still stuck with my phone company.  Our customers always 
have the option of telling us to go pound sand and taking their business 
elsewhere.

Al

    
    I think we should troubleshoot the problem until we can *PROVE*
    that the problem is not ours.  Then politly inform the customer
    that the problem is in xyz and we can not provide an answer.
    They will need to call xyz to get *them* to fix *their* broken
    equipment/application.
    
    If the customer complains that xyz is slow, etc., etc., then
    we should be prepared to offer pre-call service...that the customer
    agrees to *before* the service is rendered.
    
    We have provided the service that Digital is obligated to provide,
    and that the customer has paid for.
    
    

I have some concerns about 2404.10 by SPECXN::BLEY, like by the time
we can *prove* a problem is not ours (if we can, and that is a BIG
if), we will already have incurred perhaps 90% of the call's cost, so
what do we save? Consider also the customer satisfaction implications.

Obligations are one thing -- staying in business and keeping scarce
customers on our support rolls is another. It's just not that
cut-and-dried.

Pete

      re: .9 & .10
    
      That's exactly what I did for a customer today. I did the
    trouble shooting down to where I knew for *certain* that the problem
    was their wiring. I plugged my laptop into the DECserver 90l+ thru a
    BC16E cable and all's well. I plugged my laptop into the cable where
    the terminal is located and all's not well. Guess What? The customer
    has a cable problem. This was repeated for about three connections.
    It was our terminals, our terminal servers, but not our cables. We
    really can't bill them for anything up until now, but since the
    determination of the problem (which isn't always cut & dry), then it is 
    BILLABLE if they want us to take it further. 
       The DART laptop was a big plus in getting this situation resolved!
    
       						-John R-

    
    RE: .11
    
    Yes, we will have incurred a large amount of the cost.  BUT, the 
    important thing is that the customer sees that *we*, Digital, did
    the "leg work" and isolated the problem.  At this point the customer
    is still down.  So what do they do now?
    
    We offer to fix the problem (at pre-call rates), and then offer to
    put *ALL* their equipment under contract.  Otherwise they have to
    wait for the "other" vendor to come fix their problem.  With Digital,
    it is "one-stop-shopping".
    
    The other thing we need to do is develop (or buy out), tools that
    will enable us to find the problem faster.
    
    The customers who "milk" companies like us are nothing new.  They have
    been doing this for YEARS...only in the past, we just went along 
    with it.
    
    I know of cases where the customer had third party service.  The
    equipment wasn't working vary well and the customer complained to
    us that our equipment was poor quality.  We met with the customer
    (at our expense), went through the usual "stuff".  We *proved* to
    the customer that the equipment was working poorly because the 
    third party service company was doing a poor job.  What did we 
    gain for our expense?  The customer cancelled the third party service
    contract and bought ours.
    
    Yes, it cost us up front.  BUT, we more than made up for those costs
    in the service contract.
    
    This is the "cost-of-doing-business"...any business.  You go spend 
    hours with a car salesperson, take a test drive, get all the numbers
    worked out, then walk out and not buy a car.  Was that free?  
    
    Your TV gets zapped by lightning.  You take it to the repair shop
    for a "free" estimate, the TV is totalled.  What does the repair
    shop get for their time?  Nothing.  But hopefully you will return
    and have something repaired that they *will* get paid for.
    
    These are all part of doing business.
    
    As I said, we need to find better ways of isolating the problem.
    
    Nuff said.
    
    ART
      
    

Open divergent thread ...
	

>      <<< Note 2404.6 by ODIXIE::SILVERS "Dave, have POQET will travel" >>>
>                        -< It can be done... tactfully >-
>
>    Recently, because we've had alot of LOR's related to things like this,

	? What's a LOR? It's a TLA that I don't know.

	/jon

    LOR = Local Office Referral

    Its a handoff from the CSCs back to the customer's local DEC
    office.

	Mike

re: Note 2404.13 by SPECXN::BLEY

Your reply makes it clear that you are not talking about reverting to
the finger-pointing that used to happen -- I think we're on the same
track ...

    Sounds to me like the fundamental issue involves what kind of attitude
    we'll have towards the customer.  When a customer comes to us with a
    "mixed" system wanting support, our attitude should be to determine
    where the problem is so that we can either fix our problem (free) or
    fix the problem from the "outside" part (new revenue in terms of new
    sales or contracts).  Our attitude should NOT be to determine where the
    problem is (not ours) so we can blow off the customer!
    
    Steve

    
    No one should be looking to "blow off the customer".
    
    The whole point is that we have to do some amount of "free" 
    work.  We will (probably) never get away from that.  It's what 
    you do with it that makes a difference.
    
    You can either "blow it off" as free work, or turn it into an
    opportunity.  I prefer the later.  Some will, without a doubt,
    end as free work, but others will result in future revenue.
    
    

    
    RE: .8 - You will have a choice in the near future. It's called "Open
    Local Access". 
    
    	Lets look at this problem from another point of view. "cost per
    call". Who cares what label is on the product, if there are no tools
    and the problem/product is difficult to fix, we'll always loose. Also
    consider the "level of service" the customer is paying for. If a
    customer logs one service request on a DEC PC, talks to a human at the
    CSC who "walks" him/her through a fix that the customer could have done
    if he/she RTFM, we just lost the margin on over 10 PC sales. Why can't
    DEC sell service contracts based on the level of support the customer
    is willing to pay for? Why? Because were a computer company who can't
    even develope a simple bulleton board to answer these questions.
    
    	It's the same old story...if we can't even get a handle on
    supporting our own products, how are we ever going to succeed in the
    multi-vendor arena?

Why not have the contract state that the service is free if the fault is ours
and at xxx/hour if we can show that a third party's equipment (and the customer
doesn't have a DEC maint contract on that equipment) is at fault. The customer
can then attempt to recover the cost from the third party. The biggest problem
is the PROOF...

One of my account's has had major problems with RDB/RMU backups on a new third
party CI connected disk array. We stated that the same database backs up 
correctly on their other disks (build by the same third party vendor) which are
connected to an HSC... The third party flew in several engineers for WEEKS to
work the problem. They seem to have it fixed now but the customer's confidence
in the third party has been badly shaken, so the third party has started to 
point fingers back at RDB to defend themselves. How could we PROVE that the
problem is the third party vender's storage arrays if we tried to bill for the
DEC time that was spent looking into this problem??

(I spent 7 hours booting a new 7610 into the cluster instead of the expected 1
hour because none of the SYSGEN parameters were correct... We found the problem,
a customer typo in the include command in modparams!! I'm glad we were not using
the new disks or some poor third party engineer would have been making an 
uneeded plane ride.)
Dan Buckley, CT ps

    Re .20:
    
    Customers might balk at getting into a situation where they would not
    know whether they would be paying for service or not.  However, maybe
    Digital could write up contract wherein the customer's right to collect
    from the vendor who caused the problem was subrogated to Digital.  That
    way, Digital can send them a bill.  Individual customers might not go
    to the bother of collecting from a vendor if the amounts are small, but
    if any particular vendor caused too many problems and wouldn't pay
    their customers or Digital, Digital could sue.
    
    
    				-- edp