Conference 7.286::digital

I can understand the employees reaction, but I would hope that he would act in
a professional manner and finish the job.

Bob

    Yup.  The only people that should be TFSO'd are the ones with happy
    customers ...  Um, maybe I should rephrase that ...
    
    Steve

    re:.1
    
    Bob;
    
    Nice thought, but when people are TFSO'd, they are instructed not to do
    any more work for DEC regardless if they are allowed to stay at work
    until the end of the week.  This is done for a number of reasons ...
    and I think asking someone to complete work for a company that just
    told you your services are no longer required is somewhat unrealistic.
    
    Chuck
    

    
    
    re: .1
    
    |Doesn't sound likek that happened, and personally, I don't think it
    reflects on the engineer's "professionalism" AT ALL.  The managers that
    made the decision own the responsibility for meeting that customers
    needs, along with any other customers that were impacted.  What city is
    	the customer located in, and does the problem still exist?
    
    Jim

    
    	This is sheer madness. Every aspect of what is related in .0
    bothers me. I'm not surprised however. If we can't get this behind us
    and become sane again, it won't matter what products we're capable of
    delivering; customers will continue to lose faith in the company.
    
    - Jim K

    re,.1 - wrong.  If this happened, then the installing employee DID the
    professional thing.  He is not an agent of DEC.  What .1 suggests is
    an amateur thing.
    

    What he _should_ have done is to inform the customer of his pending
    lay-off, and offer to finish the job at 50% of the Digital contract
    price as a private contractor. Just because Digital no longer needs 
    his services doesn't mean the customer doesn't. DEC is happy (they've
    reduced headcount), customer is happy (his system is installed, and at
    a reduced price), and employee is happy (he has additional income, and 
    'satisfaction' to boot).
    
    	Dave

    RE: .1
    
    Quess that you haven't been laid off before. I have, and I sure
    can understand why he left.
    
    Marc H.

re .7
Absolutly the WRONG thing to do - for everybody involved.

If something goes wrong, who did it? DEC or the ex-DECie working on his own?
The guy is still employeed by DEC and taking cash from the customer?
Likely to get him fired for cause.

Very unprofessional.

If placed in a similar situation, I would immediatly inform the customer
of the situation and ask him what he wants done. If he doesn't specify
and only a few hours of work remain, I'd finish up. If several days, I'd
tell the customer to wait while other plans are made because I wouldn't
be able to return the following days - I'd be out looking for a job.

Mickey.

re: .6

He is still an employee of Digital.  I don't see how he could still be an
employee and not an agent.

re: Some others

I've been RIF'ed twice in my career.  The first time, I told my soon-to-be
former employer to call me if he needed help figuring out where I was on the
project and where to find things.  (This was one of those 17:00 Friday meetings
where the soon-to-be ex-employees are handed a check and told to clean out their
desks.)  I got a few calls and did my best to help them.

The second time, everyone was told to be in one of two rooms in a few hours.
Knowing that we had been bought out by one of our competitors who wanted our
customer base and not the software, I easily figured out I was out of a job.
I continued to work on my project until the machines were taken down just before
out meetings.  We were told to leave and not come back.

Now if Digital policy says that you must stop doing any productive work as
soon as you are informed, then the FE did the right thing as far as policy
was concerned, but that's not what I would be likely to do.

Bob

re: .1

Concluding that this person is not "professional" is insensitive and presumptuous.

Dave W.

re: .11

I did not mean to imply that this person was not professional and to those
who interpreted my statement to mean that, I apologize.

Bob

    I can't BELIEVE the tone of the replys to this note!!!
    People are discussing whether or not the employee did the RIGHT thing
    or not. What about DIGITAL?!!
    
    1) The employee should NOT have been informed of TFSO over the phone.
    2) The issue of the customer's install should have been covered by
       local management. 
    3) How many times do we shoot ourselves in the foot and try to say 
       "I thought the gun was unloaded?" 
    4) It's not like we haven't done TFSO before.  We should have the
       "bugs" worked out. 
        
    p.s.- on a more personal note, if it was myself that was informed that way, 
          I don't think I'd have reacted as well as the employee did.
          

    It is not the first time that I've heard that an employee was notified
    over the phone while doing an important job distant from his/her
    homebase.   Time an again, DEC management has not done the 'Right
    Thing'.   Clearly demostrating that they really don't know what they
    predict to know.   Management is saying, we will get rid of 'non-value
    added work'.   Well correct me if I'm wrong but if an employee is doing
    work (Value Added) for a customer, another site, another manager, etc.
    I consider that to be value added.   He/she can be notified later, best
    if when he/she is at the homebase.  I think this Cost Reduction mania
    has gone out of reality.   We are getting more interested in how many
    dollars we are saving now (short term) that how many millions we are
    jeopardizing in the long run.......very scarry position to be in.
    

Simple solution.  Since anyone being TFSO's is an excess employee due to a
redundancy, the responsible manager (2 levels up, in this case) should have 
simply dispatched a redundant counterpart.  8^)

Ooops... I'm sorry,  This implies that:

	a:) The employee is truely redundant.
	b:) The Manager is truely responsible.
	c:) The Manager truely knows their business.

The end result indicates that one or more of these conditions is false.

Bob

    There are people in this organization that were on vacation last week
    and not called and told that they were TSFO'd. There are others that
    were traveling in a marketing capacity for the company who were not
    called and told that they were TSFO'd. Yet .0 reports that a CE was
    called at a customer site. Did .0 speak to the customer that this has
    happened to? Can .0 say who it is? Is this a story that .0 heard from
    someone else or does .0 hve 1st hand knowledge. Can you name names? Is
    this a hard and cold steel Fact that this occured or was this heard
    from some who heard it from some one etc.

	I have recently read a letter from a DEC customer to
	DEC management.  I assume it is the real thing.

	In the letter, the customer states that DEC folks he
	talks to over the phone are distracted.  He mentions
	that people don't seem as eager to get the job done,
	and that he doesn't get return phone calls as promptly
	or as regularly as he used to.

	He plainly says that he is tired of DEC fooling around
	with this lay off business, to get it OVER WITH, and
	to get its act together, or he will have to consider
	TAKING HIS BUSINESS TO ANOTHER COMPANY.

	When the customers can see the results of our internal
	idiocy, I begin to wonder how we can survive:

	1) The decline of VMS
	2) The end of the VAX
	3) The end of Ultrix
	4) No OSF/1 production-quality product ready until ???? 1993
	5) No Alpha production quality Alpha machines ready until ??? 1993

	Have we considered that there are actually other people in the
	computer business, and that they are quite willing to sell
	our former customers oodles and oodles of stuff ?

	Steve H
	( TFSO candidate )

re: .13

I suspect nobody is complaining about how Digital handled the situation because
we know from past experience that Digital doesn't know how to do this right and
have seen no reason to believe that they would improve.

re: .16

Judging from .0's node name, it is possible that .0 talked directly to the
customer in question.  Of course, I could be wrong and it might have been
.0's neighbor one cube over.

Bob

    Re; .16
    
    		I know personally of an employee that was called while he
    was 2,500 miles out of his home base office to get informed in a rather
    stupid manner, that he was selected to be TFSOed inmediately.  No hear
    say in this one if that is what you are asking for I saw it (heard it)
    myself.

I was going to post this in the 'How are you holding up" note but this is
as good a place as any...

I'm not holding up very well watching competent, hard-working long-time
friends (14+ and 16+ yrs at DEC) here in the field get TFSO'd due to
management fatness.

First blow was last week; the layoff of a Networks Planning/Delivery
person (14+ yrs with DEC). This guy was top-notch, quality, etc. TFSO'd
in mid-project. Customer found out, was livid and contacted Palmers'
office.  I saw a draft of the customer letter to Mr. Palmer; it was full
of praise for this individual. This individual had developed an excellent
rapor with the customer and knew them very, very well. The customer also
detailed the fact that this individuals' performance was KEY in their
decision to award network business to DEC.

In the close of this (draft) letter from the customer they indicated that
"DEC cannot hope to rebuild itself when it is throwing away some of its
best material". How very, very true!

The second blow was the TFSOing this week of the person (16+ yrs) that
has been selling our network projects. This dedicated, hard-working,
frustrated guy worked like mad keeping the aforementioned guy (and his
local partner) busy with networks to put in. His most common lament was
the fact that it was difficult for DEC to compete with other vendors for
network business since it was required to add a necessary 'burden' cost
factor for our overhead management structure (the folks at the regional
level and above) into the pricing models.

I cannot cite (in this conference) the $$ figures that I have heard
associated with these guys' work but I understand that their district was
among the most profitable in the US *despite* the overhead 'burden'.

IMHO, it is to DEC's shame that these people could continue selling &
delivering networks business even if the management above them
completely disappeared!!! They are/were seasoned, capable, professional
people that could operate in an independent manner. Now they are gone
but the upper eschelons (sp?) of management remain.

Yes, I am upset because these two people are my friends, but I am
increasing bitter about the seemingly haphazard and aimless decisions
on who to TFSO. It almost seems as if someone has decided that the best
way to get our 747 flying again is rip enough critical pieces from it so
that it finally crashes into the ground, so as to be able to build a
2-place Cessna from the remnants and then point proudly to the onlookers
(Wall St.?) and say "See, we're flying again!!".

TFSOing people that are bringing CASH MONEY in our doors sure seems like
a recipe for disaster, not recovery.

Lee Roth (16+ yrs. at DEC)

p.s. I heard rumor that a request from Mr. Palmer's office was made to a
local Customer Services manager (a veteran customer-situation firefighter)
to visit the above mentioned customer to "smooth things out". The
Customer Services manager defered and said someone from within the TFSO'd
person's organization (Networks) should have to face the customer... so
it appears that a manager from within that organization will have to meet
with the upset customer.

    
    
    
    re .16
    
    
    I did speak directly to the customer.
    I have been working with the customer.
    Deep down I believe that this customer has every right to sue the ASS
    off of DEC.
    The call was LORd, but when I called the local office to find out who
    was working the issue, they told me that they weren't sure, because the
    person who normally handles the incoming LORs (local office referrals)
    was 'in transition'. ..
    
    I am still working the issue. I've sent patches off to the customer and
    assisted with parts of the install. But he didn't pay us to have to do
    it himself. It's like paying a contractor to build you a house and then
    having him hand you the hammer.  Not right.  LUCKILY for us, this is a
    small customer....but we forget that small customers often talk to big
    customers, and that ALL customers deserve to be given a fair and honest
    shake. That doesn't seem to be as important to us right now as making
    sure our headcount is in order. 
    
    

    
    To bastardize an old theatre saying.
    
    There are no small customers, only small purchase orders.
    
    -Ed
    

    someone in top management better realize, and damn soon, that the
    systematic elimination CRITCAL talent, to the benefit of beaucrats and
    politicians within this company is NOT an isolated case. Read the press
    for crimminy sakes. They are saying, for a change, the same thing us
    grunts are saying. that alone ought to tell you SOMETHING is wrong.
    
    gene.

Greetings,

I have several opinions here, but first a humous story... Last 
TFSO I called the office on friday afternoon to ask our secratary
if the cuts had been made yet. She said no but the managers were 
going into a meeting and it would probably happen after they got
out. I was in the middle of repairing a dead LPS40 so it was back
to the job. About 6:30 that night the phone rang, I ignored it, 
the customer came in and said "that's for you." I told him noone
ever calls me on-site, he said it was someone from my office and
they wanted me. "Well," I thought, "this is it, good its over and
let someone else fix this (many bad words went through my mind concerning
the amount of work this printer has needed) printer." It turned out
to be another engineer who needed a part. "Don't do this to me!"
I told the engineer. 

Now for the opinions:

1. I wonder why so many of you think these situations don't exist or
that the customer is lying to the folks in CSC. Because so many of these
type situations have happened DEC's future is being questioned by our
customers. The CSC guy isn't lying to you, most of us in field service 
aren't the spin doctors attempting to cover-up for stupid decisions.
Its an awful power field service people have because we have to be trusted
and now that management has decided to start firing us they still have
to manage laying us off AND still have us do the right thing in front of 
the custoemr. 

2. On a positive note, most customers I've worked with over the last
couple of years have been through layoffs and understand all too 
well what its like to go through this. Most are astounded how badly
we are doing this however.

3. Concerning finishing the install? Please, theperson on-site has
been told he's been fired! He's not needed anymore. What about the
wizard that's in such a hurry to terminate him could send out another
engineer to finish the job? This after all is the time for no excuses
management why didn't the manager do this most basic of things? Too
busy cutting expenses to worry about loosing revenue? This professionalism
works both ways you know. Like should someone be fired over the phone?
How about the terminations via voice-mail?

4. I've had many talks with customers who are totally dumb-founded at the
zeal with which the company is cutting field people. I know I've said
this little chestnut before but, we had 25 engineers TFSO'd and 2 managers
TFSO'd (one of which was a manager-trainee). When, conversly, the COE
winners lined up, there were 7 managers and of course 2 engineers. I 
suspect noone outside the sales/service offices really knows who pays
all our saleries.

Finally another chestnut. This area now has much more competition for 
field service because several of the engineers have gone to work for
3rd party suppliers and we have to discount our contracts to compete. 
So how much money have we saved?

Sorry for going on...

Fred Mudgett

re Note 2278.20 by CSOADM::ROTH:

> It almost seems as if someone has decided that the best
> way to get our 747 flying again is rip enough critical pieces from it so
> that it finally crashes into the ground, so as to be able to build a
> 2-place Cessna from the remnants and then point proudly to the onlookers
> (Wall St.?) and say "See, we're flying again!!".
  
        Very well put.  And the ones who do it will be acclaimed
        heroes for saving the company.

        Bob

    
    
    I guess this would be a reply to the first couple......
    
    
    It is true that once you are told you are TFSO'd...you cannot be
    expected to do anything by anyone.
    
    After 23 years, I was told in July that I was history, and my badge was
    run through the shredder.
    
    I was working on several projects...some minor....some of more
    importance.  I was in manufacturing, and in some cases had the only
    contacts for several items.
    
    I was told that my duties were ended, and I had till Friday (this was a
    Monday) to find another job. Several times during the week, I found old
    associates scratching their heads looking for paperwork, parts,
    contacts, etc....... when I asked them why they didn't come to me for
    what they needed.
    In every case I was told that they were asll called into a room and
    told to stay away from asking us (the TSFO's) for anything to do with
    work....no matter what......
    
    I gave them what they needed...and shook my head in disbelief....and
    disgust.
    
    
    whatever....
    
    Oh btw...I found another job...for now....
    
    
    Lou

    I agree with .13
    
    This should be reported directly to Palmer, and any similar incidents.
    The idiots responsible, in my opinion, should be fired (not TFSO'd,
    fired for cause). Such people clearly have no right to be managers.
    
    Dave.

>          <<< Note 2278.27 by IOSG::SHOVE "Dave Shove -- REO2-G/M6" >>>
 >               -< Why do we still employ such dumb managers? >-
>
>    I agree with .13
>    
>    This should be reported directly to Palmer, and any similar incidents.
>    The idiots responsible, in my opinion, should be fired (not TFSO'd,
>    fired for cause). Such people clearly have no right to be managers.

	Forget it.  Digital's management selection process has for
	the last 5-10 years *selected* for exactly this mindset.

	The emphasis has been on processes, organization, and
	"buy-in" rather than any objective "right or wrong" or
	concern with profit.

	We reap what we sow.

	By the way, the upper echelons of our "best in class" management
	are quite cosy.  You can expect them to congratulate themselves
	on a successful "right-sizing."

	Steve H

re: .13

I have finally learned that with one exception, corporate policies, procedures,
etc. don't mean anything.  Local management is free to follow the ones they
want to and us their "management discretion" to not follow the ones they don't
want.  How well one is treated is 99% dependent upon one's manager.  I am most
fortunate to have a manager that takes "Do the right thing" (remember that?)
to heart, and despite having been in hot water more than once for doing that,
continues to do so.

Bob

	I'd leave immediately, in the situation described in .0.
	What if I stayed and by accident screwed up the customer's
	system? I don't need that kind of liability.

	re .24:

>	we had 25 engineers TFSO'd and 2 managers
>	TFSO'd (one of which was a manager-trainee). When, conversely, the COE
>	winners lined up, there were 7 managers and of course 2 engineers.

	I guess that proves why so few managers were TFSO'd. If so many
	made COE, they must be superior, right?

				Tom_K

A few years from now, when DEC is no longer #2 (or even in the top 5) people
will look back and wonder what went wrong.

I hope someone has a copy of this conference (it will most certainly be shut
down by then) and takes a close look at the discussions here.

We have the tools (read:talented people) to fix the problems...all we need is 
a decent team of carpenters (read: talented managers) who know not only how to 
use the tools, but how to take care of them and keep them sharp.

Sorry... Just some Friday afternoon babble...

Bob

Re: my .20

As a result of my note I received a call from one of their managers who
explained the selection process for the cuts that were made and some general
state-of-business information.

Lee

Re:    <<< Note 2278.30 by TOMK::KRUPINSKI "A dark morning in America" >>>

>	I'd leave immediately, in the situation described in .0.
>	What if I stayed and by accident screwed up the customer's
>	system? I don't need that kind of liability.

But I understand from Personnel that a TFSO'd person is still officially a
Digital employee until the end of the 9 week period.  So personal liability
shouldn't be an issue. 

-  David

    RE: .0  
    
    		I have been a field engineer for 21 years and the last 8
    with DEC.  In my area we are told that when there is an issue (in this
    case the engineer's been TFSO'ed) *GET OFF SITE*.  Any discussion about
    internal "stuff" needs to be done outside of the customers hearing.  In
    this case I believe the FE did the exact right thing.  Now if this had
    happened to me I would have gone right to the office and "rattled some
    management cages" bigtime.  After all, its possible that whoever I end
    up working for I might have to work for this customer again.  
    
    		The professionalism of the guys manager might very well be
    in question in my opinion.  Here's a customer who needs help and all
    they get is "I've been layed off".  Seems to me that the manager got
    TFSO'ed just in time.  
    
    
    Dave

    I can't help but reply to this.  If/when I get layed off, I will
    finish whatever I am doing if it is a short term assignment, (95%
    of my work is less than 5 days a pop).  If I happen to be on long
    term assignment, you can bet that I will make sure the transition
    to the new person is smooth and professional.  The guy wasn't cut
    loose with no money, he should have completed the job.   This isn't
    being noble, it is just trading work for money, we all owe that
    much to Digital.  Our last day with Digital shouldn't be any
    different than the first.
    
    Brad.

Re: .35
> Our last day with Digital shouldn't be any different than the first.

For most people, the first day at Digital is spent wondering what it's all about.
So the last day...

Or is that what you meant?

Sorry I just COULDN'T resist that one! :-)

    The text of this note follows the form feed...
    
    
    	For myself, I feel fine about the Puerto Rico closing.  I am going
    to go do some stuff that I have always wanted to do and I have the
    financial support to get started.  Great.
    
    	For some of my less fortunate colleages, I am disappointed that
    Digital has changed its mind about what kind of company it wants to be. 
    I don't want or expect a reversal, but its too bad that people have had
    their illusions about Digital dashed.
    
    	For those of you still here, I am very sorry.  You will have to go
    through all the grieving process as if you friends had died, at least
    for the forty-plus hours per week you spend at Digital.  You will have
    to see this company get sicker and sicker before it finally dies or is
    broken up, as I now believe will happen.
    
    	Dick Lennard was right.  Digital is in a death spiral.  There is no
    one up there with a will or a way to turn the company around.  Bob
    Palmer and his staff are presiding over the enterrment and I think they
    know it and are helpless to stop it. am now sure it will.  The
    mismanagement caused by middle and upper managers placing their
    personal interests above that of the company has reached the breaking
    point.
    
    	I was, for 16 years, a constructively critical employee.  I was
    unhappy when I foresaw the general nature of these problems in 1984 and
    wrote about them to my management.  I wanted Digital to be successful. 
    I tried to get Digital salespersons to attend small customers whose
    needs would start small and grow.  I was unsuccessful.  But I
    understood.
    
    	When the closing of the Puerto Rico plants was announced, I took it
    stoicly, as did most of my colleagues.  If Digital needed to downsize
    in manufacturing, well, that's what had to happen.
    
    	Since the 31st of March, my personal prospects have become better
    and better as Digital's have descended.  When top Digital managers
    allow idiots to make such mistakes because of the rank they hold and the
    friends they have, then the company's destiny is decided.  
    
    	In conclusion, I can no longer recommend any Digital products or
    services.  I will have to be resold that Digital is a responsible
    player, even in its chosen fields of "silicon, software, and services".
    
    	Part of my pesimism is based on the appearance that Digital doesn't
    care whether its former employees recommend it or not.  That indicates
    a death wish that is likely to be fulfilled before things improve.
    
    Sorry,
    
    	Dick

re .33:

>>	I'd leave immediately, in the situation described in .0.
>>	What if I stayed and by accident screwed up the customer's
>>	system? I don't need that kind of liability.
>
>But I understand from Personnel that a TFSO'd person is still officially a
>Digital employee until the end of the 9 week period.  So personal liability
>shouldn't be an issue. 


	A better way to state my concern is that I would not want an honest 
	mistake (or a some other problem that occurred simply through
	coincidence) to be misconstrued as deliberate sabotage, causing
	my termination status to be changed from "TFSO'd" to "fired for cause".

	What, me paranoid?

		Tom_K

Re: -.37

>>    	In conclusion, I can no longer recommend any Digital products or
>>    services.  I will have to be resold that Digital is a responsible
>>    player, even in its chosen fields of "silicon, software, and services".

I'm sorry you feel that way. I believe there are still some good 
products around - why do you feel that you cannot recommend *any* 
Digital product? You can't know them all... I can only assume it's 
because you believe the company is doomed - I'm not convinced - but 
if *all* our products are rubbished, especially by ex-employees, 
that just contributes to the problem.

We clearly have a bunch of problems, but we should look at them
realistically, *not* pessimistically. That's just a self-fulfilling
prophecy...

Regards
	\Jon

    
    
    
    for those of you who have read this note and are concerned about what
    is being done for this customer, let me assure you that this customer
    has not been dropped and forgotten. I have made a dozen or more phone
    calls in the last few trying to get answers for this customer. The
    local office is still involved and is finally sending someone out to
    the customer site to complete the installation. 
    My concern has been that the customer get ON SITE assistance and not
    been forced to do the install himself. (He did not have dial in/set up
    capability or I would have dialed in and completed the install myself). 
    My concern has also been in trying to find out exactly what happened
    and to try and figure out a way to NOT have this happen again. 
    We are very aware of the fact that we now have another customer who is
    not happy with Digital, something that we really don't need, especially
    right now. 
    This should NOT have happened. If anyone reading this has anything to
    do with customer support, it's important that we relay the message
    that we can't let this happen again. 
    

    	re .37
    
    	Dick --
    
    	When I read stuff like that from people who are on their way out,
    	I think of Kamikaze pilots trying to do their most damage as the
    	die.  Only difference is that a Kamikaze tries to damage the enemy
    	and not his own team.  Or do you now see DEC as your enemy?  If so,
    	that 25 days can't come fast enough for me.
    
    	Maybe a better analogy would be cancer, because you are doing
    	nothing but spreading disease with stuff like that.  You are
    	acting like an infecting bacterium or a virus, dividing and 
    	spreading your venom and making others ill along with you.
    
    	I can understand why managers want to immediately take away 
    	network access from employees who have been tapped.  I have
    	been watching you count down, day by day in your personal string,
    	the days until your "freedom", and can only conclude that your
    	management doesn't see the stuff you write in notes or your
    	access would also be terminated.  If you hate this place so much,
    	why do you stay?
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    When, oh when, are the senior executives of this corporation going to
    realize, that the number of employees, is neither the problem, the
    symptom, the excuse, or the salvation.
    
    Our business viability has little or nothing to do with the number of
    people working for us. It has to do with the commitment to our product
    set. It has to do with the commitment to our customer base. It has to
    do with the commitment to our workforce. Make those the prime goals and
    the financials etc will sort themselves out as a matter of course. 
    
    You can not micromanage a $14B corporation, especially from the executive
    level. Empower the front line. State strategies, and stick by them,
    and, trust me, all will be well...
    
    q
    

    re .41
    
    I think you're overly concerned with the potential affect of negative
    notes.  We're all big boys and girls.  If we have managed to keep a
    stiff upper lip through the last few years of uncertainty, a negative
    note here and there is not a problem.
    
    In fact, .37 could have been much more negative in view of his
    position.  Taken in total, .37 is STILL constructive criticism.
    
    Tony

    
    re: .41
    
    	Like it or not, .37 brings up a point; namely that we not only have
    to improve internal morale but try to improve relations with those
    that leave.
    
    - Jim K

    So, MOCA::BELDIN_R "Free at last in 25 days", is that 25 calendar days
    or 25 working days?  It seems like you've been at this negative stuff
    for years.  
    
    What was it Oliver Cromwell said to the Long Parliament?  "You may be
    right, you may be wrong, but your job now is to go, I beseech you in
    the [controversial religious expression], go!"

    re: .20 and a few others...  
    
    (my reply is about 200 lines long it turned into a big flame but it made me
    feel better )
    
    I work in the Network Integration Services group mentioned in .20
    I work(ed) with the high-caliber individual(s) who were TFSOed and they 
    truly *were* good. 
    
    I can personally vouch for the fact that the customer who called Bob
    Palmer's office did so and was not an insignificant customer ( does the
    State of Ohio ring any bells !? ) I can confirm the rumor that Palmer's
    office called the manager who TSFOed the Network Planning Consultant in 
    question and had him write a justification of why that particular 
    individual was let go. If it helps anybody to know... the manager who
    did the deed was absolutely distraught over it. He DID NOT want to let the 
    person go.
    
    Some observations and comments... in absolutely random order.
    
    1) 
    possibly the call from Palmer's office ( it's not really his office
    it is a group who used to sit a few doors away from KO's office and
    respond to customer complaints like " I DEMAND TO SPEAK TO THE
    PRESIDENT OF YOUR COMPANY....NOW !!! "  ) was not so much to find out
    if the right person was let go or even IF ANYBODY should have been let
    go.... but simply to assure DEC's lawyer's that we did have a
    documented reason and rational for why THIS particular person was
    TFSO'ed so he couldn't come back later and sue us ! I wonder.
    
    2)
    if DEC is interested in efficiency WHY in God's name did we just TSFO
    the purchasing agent who handles our group ? ( decision out of our
    control ) This person processed upwards of 40 PO's a day on what is 
    still essentially a manual system. Guess who's got to do it now !
    Right, the Project Manager's and NPC's. We'll spend time with our
    customer's, selling more services sometime in the future... for now
    we'll just spend time in the office doing more and more paperwork !
    
    3) 
    if DEC is interested in efficiency WHY did we just TSFO the
    administrative person who handles our files so our auditors are kept
    happy ? Oops... guess I shouldn't have mentioned that. We aren't
    supposed to tell her she's been TSFOed ( her name was pulled before
    XMAS ) because she's on short term disability ( she just had a baby ) 
    and DEC personnel has instructed us not to call her because they are 
    afraid that she'll extend her disability just to get even. I SWEAR THIS
    IS TRUE !!!!! Merry Xmas to DEC personnel !!!
    
    4) if DEC is interested in PROFIT why hasn't the sales rep ( more
    appropriately his manager ) been FIRED for allowancing ( read
    'discounting' ) a $218,000 network cableplant project to the tune of
    $57,000.00  ? Yes folks, that's 26% discount in a business that operates
    on a 10-15% margin. We are implementing this project at a large loss to the
    company.
    
    5) 
    if #4 was an isolated incident, WHY did I just hear of a project
    that is $97,000 in the red again yesterday ? Somebody spent a great
    deal of time and energy last year to negotiate contracts directly with
    manufacturers of fiber optic cable so we wouldn't have to go thru
    distributors. NEAT idea ! We can pass this savings on to our customers
    AND make more $$$ for DEC. NOT when DEC Sales continues to allowance our
    projects away by 1/4 of the overall price. These projects are not going
    in the red because a project manager is spending too much money. They
    are going into the red because they are either a) sold with no input
    from the delivery folks as to the actual cost or b) priced properly
    given the cost but then all profit is allowanced away by the Sales
    Reps.
    
    6)
    if DEC is interested in selling networks integration and consulting....
    how can we explain that of the 40 some odd Sales reps in the building 
    across from mine, have only 5 sales reps sold a network in the 6 years 
    I have been in this job ?  Sales is STILL not goaled on selling
    services. Why can blame a sales rep for a) selling what is quick and
    easy ( read hardware ) and b) selling what is necessary for them to
    make their "gates" so they can go to Hawaii.
    
    7) 
    if Bob Palmer was serious about not suspending training for our people
    during these difficult times..... why is the total training budget for our
    group of about 20 people only $10K for all of FY '93. If the average
    training class costs about $200/day w/o food, airfair or lodging this
    works out to each of us 20 receiving 2.5 hours of training in FY'93
    
    8)
    if DEC is interested in regaining it's leadership position in
    networking hardware WHY have we in NIS been hounding DEC Engineering to
    build a hub ( like the DEChub 900 ) for nearly 3 years ? It is due to
    be released ( in Jan '93 ) and I'm supposed to SELL IT.  I have had to
    hunt and scrape for any tidbit of information on it.  If the product
    managers would automatically SEND info on new products and their ETA's
    to us delivery and sales folk, we could have prevented at least one large
    customer here in Detroit from standardizing on Synoptics hubs a few
    months ago instead of DEC ( this represents a loss to DEC of
    approximately $900,000 over the next 3 years ).
    
    9) if DEC is in financial difficulty and looking so closely at expenses 
    that my manager will not allow me to purchase an additional hard drive 
    for our PC.... why did we just send a WHOLE lot of SALES people to Hawaii 
    for DEC100 while at the same time a country wide meeting of the NIS folks 
    in Nashua was cancelled due to cost constraints. The people in the
    Central States region NIS group have not been able to get together as a
    group to discuss business in over 2 years. The entire NIS organization
    has NEVER had a group meeting in the 6 years I have been with the
    group.
    
    Oh well that's enough for tonight. It's 11:30pm. My date got called on
    standby to take a flight and I am celebrating the New Year by bitching
    about DEC ! SH_T ! After reading the last few notes, I just had to get
    some of this off my chest.
    
    We seem to be practicing the old joke of middle management 
    re-organization... 
    
    A bunch of monkeys are sitting in a tree. Somebody comes along and 
    shakes the tree. Most of the monkeys fall out but they just climb right 
    back up. However, this time they are all sitting on different 
    branches !
    
    DEC really does have some outstanding products, services and most of all 
    PEOPLE ! I plan to see things thru and not pull the rip-cord just yet.
    ( Although somebody may do it for me ).
    
    Pete
    
    

    To all those upset with my negativism:
    
    All learning is by trial and error.  If you don't study the mistakes of
    others with an eye to avoiding them, you are doomed to learn from your
    own mistakes.  And that is rather costly.
    
    From day 1 in Digital, I was charged by my various managers with
    telling unpleasant truths as I saw them.  I am continuing in that
    tradition until my last day, which is only 11 days away.
    
    Digital has some very good products, but the uncertaintly about the
    support that Digital will assure for them in the future is what leads
    me to make the statement I made.  My customers deserve better than the
    FUD that reigns in this company today.  
    
    If, against my expectations, Digital can stabilize itself and become a
    reliable vendor again, I will be quite happy to recommend it.  That's
    what I mean by having to be "resold".
    
    Finally, the "good news only" mentality is one of the major causes of
    Digital's ills.  I don't like being the sourpuss, but you have to face
    facts.  When the company's management demonstrates it is in control
    again and can cope with constructive criticism, morale will improve.
    
    Peace,
    
    	Dick

    re .48:
    
    Happy new year.
    
    BTW, sales reps don't do allowances, L1 & L2 managers do.  
    
    

    re: .48
    
    Yes you are correct ( in theory ). In the real world however...
    
    well let's just say.... ever hear the term "rubber stamp" ?

    re: .46, et al
    
    If the total business an account manager books is profitable, who gives
    a rats patoot what the allowance is on a particular piece or kind of
    business?  The goal is total profitability; to achieve that goal it is 
    not necessary that everything we sell be profitable. 
    
    Your fallacy is in assuming that the cost to deliver a service should
    determine it's price. If a particular product or service is not
    competetively priced (never mind what it costs to deliver), it will
    need an allowance if it's going to sell.  There are also a jillion
    reasons why an account manager would allowance an already competetively
    priced product; a jillion reason why we can't seem to tell an account
    manager what's profitable, what isn't, and what he/she is going to be
    measured on; and a jillion reasons why we don't ever hold anyone
    accountable to anything.  The latter two go a long way to explaining
    why DEC is in so much trouble, along with the continuing stovepipe
    mentality.
    
    Lastly, you can pile anything you want on a sales rep's goalsheet,
    including quotas for VAX 9000's, Network Services and LPS40 toner
    cartridges sold on an odd-numbered Thursday.  It will not help sell 
    products and services which are priced inappropriately or which customers 
    do not want.  It will only provide a convenient scapegoat.
    
    Al
    

    RE .48
    
    Alright, I'll buy that (less allowance).
    
    And .50 spent time and energy to explain the rest....
    
    Very good....nice trend.
    

        <<< Note 2278.50 by ALOS01::KOZAKIEWICZ "Shoes for industry" >>>

>    re: .46, et al
>    
>    If the total business an account manager books is profitable, who gives
>    a rats patoot what the allowance is on a particular piece or kind of
>    business?  
    
    How about the Product Manager, for one?  The PM is responsible for the
    P & L of the Business Plan for that product.  While allowances give the
    account manager a means of maintaining profitability, the PM (who has
    little to no control over the sales process) takes the hit when his/her
    business plan is in the red.
    
    Mark.

    re .52
    
    And lest readers think that the problem is just the Product Manager
    meeting the metrics of his/her Business Plan.....
    
    One of the "Retirement Trigger Points" is a lack of PBT.  Aggressive
    sales can allowance away PBT (profit) to the point of beginning formal
    retirement. That might just mean the product was horribly overpriced in
    the beginning; it could also mean that sales was doing "ordertaking"
    instead of selling.
    
    As always, FWIW
    
    Dave