Conference 7.286::digital

    For too long the company has ignored college recruiting.  The timing is
    a bit off but I believe there is a clear need for college hiring.
    
    Before the layoffs began the company grew too fast, bringing in way too
    many new people.  The trouble was that most of the new people were not
    new to the industry or other big corporations.  The fresh blood was not
    that fresh at all.
    
    With SERP and the lack of college hiring, this company is old.  I don't
    have any facts or figures to back me up on this, it is just a personal
    observation.  So many older workers have left, leaving the company with
    a majority of people in their thirties and forties.  
    
    Bringing in truely fresh blood is a good idea.  There are way too many
    people who have grown fat and comfortable in Digital.  I say bring the
    new folks in now, teach them the specific skills needed.  The current
    climate of hustle and accountablity is a good environment for beginners
    to learn.  
    
    I like the idea.  Besides they are cheaper and hungrier than most of
    the current crop.
    
    Marv
    

    
    My vote is to make damn sure we keep hiring college kids.  To
    do otherwise is sheer stupidity.  We need people with good
    educations who are full of p*ss and vinegar and are not in
    the least bashful about telling us old folks that there
    are better ways of doing things.
    
    Like most management decisions, this is one of balance.  You
    need to balance the experience and caution of the older population
    against the drive and exuberance of 23-year olds.  If we allow
    the balance to be skewed too far in either direction, we'll have
    long term problems.  If we stop hiring college kids now, in 10 years 
    we'll have lost the opportunity for those kids to have grown into 
    seasoned professionals, and we'll be 10 years older and even more 
    set in our (sometimes evil) ways.
    
    Glenn

    It's *not* a question of *more* important or less important.
    *One* of the reasons to have experience is to help bring out
    the potential of fresh ideas.  They're both important!
    
    And *YES*, if you want leading edge ideas, you have to 
    go to MIT, RPI, CAL Poly, WPI, and etc etc.  My first-hand
    experience includes having a friend, a PHD from Stanford, who 
    was recruited *because* of the advanced R&D he was doing in 
    networking.  I'm willing to bet that almost every development 
    in our current hardware and software technologies found its 
    beginnings in a college classroom or university lab.  And that 
    goes for marketing innovation as well.  
    
    Keep brining in the ideas.  Let experience decide which ones
    to implement.

    And hey, assuming some of us make it to retirement we'll need some
    workers still generating revenue here to pay for our Colorado condos.
    
    Spike

    While I'm not saying we should hire college kids to keep the leagues
    going, if you look at the Digital Softball Leagues, their population
    has been declining for the last couple of years.  I think at least one
    reason is the aging of the company.
    
    John

    
    
    
    There is no doubt that hiring college grads is a good idea for the 
    aforementioned reason, they are cheap, highly motivated, potential
    replacements for us as we grow old, compacent, and/or are promoted
    [there's a word I bet you haven't seen in a while], and/or quit. They
    are too inexperienced to know when we present an impossible task to be
    delivered, are not bummed out to deliver it and are too insecure to not
    kill themselves working overtime to complete it. Did you ever read "The
    Soul of a New Machine"?
    
    In order to start hiring college grads that won't quit after 1 year
    (taking our training investment with them), we must be able to provide
    a relatively stable envioronment (not threatening to layoff next month
    over  period of years), a career growth path, challanging work and
    guidance to do the work correctly.
    They will not work  for a company that will use them as fodder for the
    future attrition plans (except for the stupid ones).
    
    As a whole, to hire unknown people from other companies means that we are
    willing to pay more for a person that either didn't like what they were
    doing or weren't doing it well (most likely reason to leave). Yet we
    continue to hire senior people on the basis of an interview only 
    from the outside rather than growing our own. I can understand the
    arguements for and against growing our own senior people, but in my
    opinion growing college grads is a GOOD investment in our future.
    
    

    
    If we hire new blood, we must get rid of some lousy attitudes DEC
    has toward new hires.
    
    The "You're not DEC yet" attitude lives on.  I've been with the company for
    about three years.  I've been frustrated by how difficult it is to get 
    "oldsters" to listen.  The pretentious pinstripe culture DEC has
    acquired over the years makes live miserable for the young and
    ambitious.  To make matters worse, we are forever being bombarded with
    propaganda about how wonderful DEC "culture" is.  Maybe it *WAS* in the
    early days, but it is just a big bureaucratic political quagmire now.
    
    Finally, I think limiting the search to Ivy League or the top
    engineering schools is a mistake.  Digital would have never hired
    me (a Physics major from a small, liberal arts school) straight out
    of college, but gladly made me an offer after I had worked for a number
    of competitors doing UNIX sales support for about six years.  I don't 
    know how many Comp Sci majors I've met who throw up their hands when 
    their DECstation won't boot and all that's wrong is they don't have
    an ethernet terminator on the connector.  
    
    My point is we don't need more "experts" with tunnelvision.  
    
    My .$02
    
    -Ed
    

    Sorry, I couldn't let a few of these reply's lay there without kicking
    them. 

    I was hired into this company directly out of college (Tufts if anyone
    cares) twelve plus years ago into "the board shop" as an engineer; it
    was to say politely, an adventure (actually, just making it through
    second shift without taking a swim was an adventure).

    During my time there, I was treated with respect and given
    responsibility from the first day I arrived.  I also don't ever
    remember being told "you aren't DEC yet", although a common joke used
    to be "because we're DEC and your not" (this was only used in jest,
    usually when dealing with engineering or other DEC customers).  Maybe
    this was an unusual environment, but everyone seemed very interested in
    my growth and success.

    I have nothing but good things to say about the opportunities that
    program offered to me, and I'm sure the company has benefited from the
    "risk" it took with all of the college hires I ever met here.

    So (IMHO) while it seems strange to be sending experienced talent out
    one door while you are bringing raw knowledge into another, it is really a
    process which needs to continue.  The DEC workforce really does need a
    good "bleed and feed", and the talent coming in is essential to new
    growth.  

    Just be thankful that DEC hasn't used the revolving door approach other
    companies (like Raytheon) use; they will hire someone for a six month
    project and release them at six months plus one day.  If another
    project is hiring, they can apply there and come back.  

    /greg

    Not all college hires lack experience. While some people may dismiss it
    as "hacking", a lot of college kids spend a lot of time outside their
    classwork doing software development. It may not have the same
    discipline of an engineering organization, and may not be the same type
    of software that we do, but it can be some valuable real-world
    experience nevertheless. These are the motivated people, the ones who
    really want to know how things work and how they can make things do what
    they want. These are the type of people we should hire, no matter where
    they went to school.

    As for experienced people, the most annoying case I ever saw was when I
    worked at another company. We had hired a lady to work on our
    development team. Her experience was C on Unix, with a Master's in CS.
    We were doing C on VMS. Everytime anything would go wrong, it was "a bug
    in the compiler" or "a bug in VMS." I always managed to show her that it
    was something she was doing wrong, at which point she would say "That's
    not the way Unix does it!" Now there's a news flash. Arrghhh! I managed
    not to throttle her. So there was the case of someone with good
    experience, but who was so inflexible and unadaptable that she could not
    adjust to a different operating system. Nor did she have the drive to
    figure out on her own what the real problem was; she would give up at
    the first sign of trouble.

re .7:

>    As a whole, to hire unknown people from other companies means that we are
>    willing to pay more for a person that either didn't like what they were
>    doing or weren't doing it well (most likely reason to leave).

That may be the case in the Midwest, but in New England it's most likely he
was laid off by Wang, Prime, or any of a host of smaller failing competitors.

    
    The other day I had a "discussion" with someone who looked at my
    badge number and snottily commented on how they had been with DEC
    for 10 years as though that made their opinions superior.  This
    is not the first time I've experienced this.  
    
    -Ed
    

    Opinions that take advantage of years of experience generally ARE
    superior. Wise folk recognise this fact.
    
    /a

    
    I agree if we're talking about INDUSTRY experience.
    
    -Ed_who_has_just_as_much_industry_experience_as_the_jerk_he_was_talking_to
    
    

    in universities you hear them say that those in industry dont know much 
    of anything in terms of using scientific methods.

    in industry you hear them say that those in universities dont live in 
    the real world, and dont do real world things.

    /Nasser
    I spelled checked

    What's wrong with sending some of our seasoned/talented individuals
    back to college to get and bring back all these wonderful, new ideas?
    
    

    It is interesting to note in this string broadly applied attitudes
    towards employees hired right out of college and those "other"
    employees.  First, not everyone over a certain age stops working after
    forty hours.  I am currently attached to a project with an aggressive
    schedule.  I am willing to do what it takes to meet my schedule.  

    From the standpoint of new ideas, age and experience are not always
    factors in predicting behavior.  I have seen employees with several
    years in the company applaud new ideas from college hires.  I have also
    seen recent college graduates boxed in my by a previous paradigm, and
    reject new technology out of hand, like object-oriented technology,
    without at least old-fashioned experimentation.  And, as several
    answers in this string indicate, I have seen new ideas from people,
    who do not know it cannot be done, squashed flat.  A lot of what of I
    have read so far, sounds like communication was poor and complacency
    high.  
    
    So, this topic is in my opinion a bit like the Shimmer commercial on
    the 1975-1976 Saturday Night Live.  You're both right.  Shimmer is a
    floor wax (we need experienced employees) and a dessert topping (new
    college hires).  
    
    Charles M. Norton
    Pathworks For Windows
    SME Departmental Systems And Software
    LJO2/H4
    226-2597
    

    I have a question that I hope someone can help me with. This may not be
    the right note or notesfile, however I will post where it belongs
    within the right notesfile.
    
    My question is this.  How good or bad or these courses you receive
    through the mail, granting Postgraduate degrees with work experience
    and some level training through the mail? My reason for asking is that
    I have received some information in the mail from one school on the
    West Coast and they mention the names of companies that have students
    enrolled, and Digital's name was on the list.
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    
    
    MMoore

>What's wrong with employees with age of 40', 50', 60'?

Is age measured in feet now?   Great, I'm only 5'8" old.

    
    DEC does not advance its younger employees.  I'm 27 and have been here
    for 5 years.  I have no career advancement or growth potential in
    Digital, not with the inflated levels and pay scales the way they are. 
    Digital can get all the college hires it wants (I was one 5 years ago),
    but unless they proactively develop them for the benefit of the
    company's future, they will lose them to competitors.  I know of many
    in my age bracket within DEC who feel this way.  I think you'll find
    that when the job market gets better there will be a locomotive train
    full of us "former college hires" bound for other other companies
    offering better growth opportunities and bigger salaries.
    
    Digital should continue to hire college grads, but it needs to utilize
    these people in the proper way, reward them, develop them, promote
    them, and challenge them.  Lock them into an SRI scale and restrict
    their growth opportunities and you'll be adding a passenger car to that
    locomotive.
    
    Mike
    
    

    
    .21 speaks the truth!  I suggest some oldsters get a copy of "Generation X"
    a novel written by Douglas Coupland.  Those of us born after 1960 are
    certainly feeling the pinch.  God, I hate the clogged corporate ladder!
    
    -Ed_who_is_31
    
    

    >What's wrong with employees with age of 40', 50', 60'?

    no one passed age 40' need to work anymore, unless they want to.

    things should be set up such that at age 40' you retire, go to your
    vacation home and spend the next 40' or so years happy ever after.

    you see people work until they are 70' years old then they retire
    and die next day, this is got to stop.

    so, if you are over 40' and still working, you should ask you self
    every morning this question: "Am I doing the right thing?"

    Iam not 40' yet, but I plane to retire when Iam 40' and spend
    the rest of my life writing books and publishing things for the
    masses.

    thanks,
    /Nasser
    I spelled checked

    i think it's a good idea to get in college new hires, after a while
    watching the old timers make the same old mistakes gets boring and
    watching the new hires make the same old mistakes is much more
    interesting.
    
    oh, and btw, why is it that some of you think that all this company
    does is hire engineers or do engineering?  maybe you've been trying to
    get that PC to do something useful a bit to long.

    
    Hey Nasser, I'll buy the first copy of your book, but only if it
    is spell checked!
    
    John

    >Hey Nasser, I'll buy the first copy of your book, but only if it
    >is spell checked!

    Thanks John for the order, I put you first of the list. there will
    be some delay due to spell checking process, but an earlier 
    non-spelled-checked version is available if you can't wait.

    About college hires, EDS does a lot of that, they hire lots of
    college graduates , at least they used to, I heard when I was there
    that they prefer people with no "real" experience so that they
    can mold them and teach them how things should be done the EDS way,
    and since the new hires have no prior experience, they'll have no
    prior conflicts with how things should be done.

    but people with lots of experience it is hard to make them change the way
    they do things.

    this reminds me of the old say I heared "you can bring a dog to the water, 
    but you can't teach it new tricks"

    thank you
    /Nasser
    I spelled checked
    

I thought we hired college students because (generally speaking)
they don't have kids that want to go to Canobie Lake.

          
    Re: EDS
    
    Precisely the way Digital has hired and brainwashed students in the
    past.  Just what we *DON'T* need now.  
    
    Personally, I think we need to get rid of the notion of "The Digital
    Way" of doing things.  Ethnocentrism to the max!  Replace it with
    "The Profitable Way" 
    
    -Ed
    

    .29

    >Personally, I think we need to get rid of the notion of "The Digital
    >Way" of doing things.  Ethnocentrism to the max!  Replace it with
    >"The Profitable Way" 

    Ed, I think there should be the "DEC WAY OF LIFE" theme or something
    like that going around.

    Because it is something one is proud of, and can adhere to in its
    principles and values in its glory and admirations and thrive for and
    strive to achieve in coherence with all united together under this
    theme for all to see and hear.

    it is good to have a company slogan independent of material values
    like profit and money, it must be more refined and elevated than
    just "profit" !

    and about being brain washed, I can guarantee to you than my brain
    can never be washed, it was not washed in EDS and it will never be
    in any place, If someone brain can be washed then we dont want them
    to start with , who wants to hire someone with a brain that can be
    washed any way?

    this is just my 2 and one half cents off course, and based on personal
    onions only.

    thanks,
    /Nasser
    I spell checked

    
    Re: .30
    
    Yes, Nasser, I see your point.  I still have a problem with things as
    they are.  We need to be profitable or we will cease to exist.  As
    jaded as I seem, I *REALLY* believed in KO's ideals when I joined DEC.
    The problem is that over time, those ideals have been perverted.  
    
    Too often, outmoded policies, metrics and self-interest on the part of
    employees are the rule of the day.  What gets me upset most is hearing
    about how wonderful "DEC culture" is.  I seems like the ultimate
    hypocracy to me.
    
    Ed_who_never_knew_the_old_Digital_and_only_heard_the_legend_and_believed!
                                                                             

      
      I'm a bit surprised to see the narrow-minded attitudes expressed
    here... I think it all depends on WHAT the work is as to whether the
    college grad is essential. If I'm going to ave my appenix remove, or
    file a lawsuit, I'd surely prefer to have a college grad working for
    me. However, someone famous who my "experienced" mind cannot recall at
    this time once said: "Colleges do not give people
    educations.....Colleges give people DEGREES". The bottom line here is
    that just because you have graduated from a college or university is NO
    reason to believe that you are 'educated'.
    
      Let's talk about the "DEC Philosophy" and "attitude" for a bit... In
    the 35 or so years that Digital has been around, it has had some
    phenomenal successes, and recently some equally phenomenal stumbling.
    Before 1985, the majority of those successes were the result of
    experienced people using their experience to EDUCATE and include the
    steady influx of outside hires...both from colleges and other
    companies. There was a sense of PRIDE in what we did, and a knowledge
    that there would be security and reward in the long term...but that it
    was a GOOD thing to become a true "DECCIE", but this was something to
    be EARNED over time by paying one's dues. It was almost a "given" that
    you could not and would not be considered a REAL DECCIE until
    approximately the 10 year timeframe. You were semi-included at 5 years,
    but not a confirmed STAYER until 10. "Superstars" that expected to be
    inducted in 2, 3, or 4 years were treated with a certain amount of
    disdain and contempt...and those who couldn't handle the dues-paying
    time soon fell by the wayside. Most were thought to be more into
    themselves than interested in long-term contribution anyway. Those who
    stuck it out had gained much experience and knowledge about how the
    company really operated, and were able to function within the
    philosophical rules. These "DECCIES" had taken many lumps, won a lot of
    hard battles in their work, and now had an "attitude" that for the most
    part was positive. Snotty??? Not really! Self assured, proud, confident
    maybe...
    
      One reply here---.21 if I recall, is a bit off base in "attitude" in
    my opinion. If anyone expects Digital to "develop them" they are
    fooling themselves. Development is a personal responsibility. Digital
    will ALLOW you to develop yourself if you have the right stuff, and
    they will let you stay in one place if that's what you want---as long
    as you perform satisfactorily in your position. To expect Digital to
    come to anyone and try to push them into higher and more responsible
    and better paying positions is a bit naive.. (.22...thank GOODNESS
    Digital doesn't operate by tenets found in fictional novels!!)
    
      I have resented the "attitude" of people with degrees throughout my
    entire career on occasion. In some occupations,---mine being a great
    example of one---a degree can actually be a handicap. "Book learning"
    in this area doesn't cut it. Common sense, a "work ethic", learning
    from experience(due to the constant changes in the field), and
    dedication are the key things...not ONE of these can be gotten from
    attending a 4/8/12 year higher education program. The irony of the
    situation is that most managers don't really understand this...
    
      So..sure, college does give some carreer a great base to begin with,
    but experience is what makes a good executive. There also seems to be a
    very narrow-minded understanding of what REAL experience does for an
    individual. Experience isn't something that makes you narrow-minded and
    unmoving in your work attitudes. Experience is a CONSTANT learning and
    adding skills process. People who sit with the past in their heads and
    refuse to progress and learn every day are NOT "experienced"...they are
    IGNORANT.
    
      John Mcd
    (Who-has-12-years-"formal"-education-and-43-years-of-"college-of-life")
    
    

RE: .31

>    We need to focus the duscussion on doing college hire 
>    at the same time the group doing TFSO.
 
If hiring college grads is the right thing to do for Digital's long term
success we should do it without regard to layoffs.  The two are apples and
oranges.  If hiring new people gives us the vitality and new ideas that we
need in the future we will whither if we don't do it.  Now, on the other 
side, we have to deal with the problem of having too many people.  We cannot
solve an overpopulation problem by cutting off our future.

We have not done much (if any) college hiring in the last several years.  In
this same time our performance has gotten worse.  I don't know if this is
coincidence or not.

I believe that for any organization to be viable long term it must add new
blood.  This could be young, old or in between and should be some mix.  

During most of our history we did this because we had to meet growth.  I believe
that we need to do this still.  The fact that we are not growing forces us
to deal with excess people.  

In the book Hard Drive about Microsoft it is stated that Microsoft has peer
reviews every 6 months.  As a result of these reviews, 5% of the people are
let go.  This is in a company that is growing.


Ken Slattery

--> "Colleges do not give people educations.....Colleges give people DEGREES". 
--> The bottom line here is that just because you have graduated from a 
--> college or university is NO reason to believe that you are 'educated'.

	I agree what we should be looking for is a mix of real-life and 
college educated people. They both have things to offer. The bottom
line is to find hard working, dedicated, and flexible people. What we 
need to be asking is "can this person do the job, and are they the rite 
person for this company." Also the company must offer some career 
development opportunities to allow us to grow our people. As it stands
now, this is done very hap-hazardly. Basically age and degree status
should not matter in this business.

tac

When you want to lose weight and stay healthy, you don't stop eating.

-steve-

Re .34

	  Hello,

          Perhaps having a chairman who is a multi-billionaire
          and 20% of employees who are millionaires might help to
          explain Microsoft's success. Which of course is closely
	  linked to the fact that Microsoft sells huge amounts of
	  software to the PC market.

          As an aside, I also heard that 80% of Microsoft's
          employees are under 35 years of age.

	  Makes you think, doesn't it?

	  Bye,

		Mike.

    re: 37
    
    Makes you think about what??  35 is no magic age - as one that has just
    reached tht mark can attest ... what exactly are you thinking about???

    I think what should happen is the break up of the ol' boys network
    
    Positions that have been held by managers for x amount of years
    in one dept. these folks should be shuffled around and get a good look at
     other aspects of the company.  this is what I believe is 
     stagnating some departments. new blood = new ideas. and guess
     what all this can be accomplished with out hirering from the outside.
    
    Bill -

    I think 35 is like mid-life mark, that is why it is important.
    I read that in some places in Europe they are more open about 
    asking for people who are 35 years or less in their ads !

    I think too at 35 , people start to enter their mid-life crises, they start
    to doubt themselves, where they are going, and what is it all about and
    look too much in the mirror.

    and so no one want to hire a half-paranoid individual so is struggling
    with deep inner thought and self crises.

    this is just my own feelings on the reason about 35 age. 

    thank you,
    /Nasser
    I spelled checked

>    I think 35 is like mid-life mark, that is why it is important.

	Mid life?!?! I thought 40 was when one became an adult?

			Alfred

    Reading through this note one thing came to mind: the Red Sox.  Their
    recent experiences with overpaid free-agents, and lack of new blood, is
    kind of what happened to DEC during the 80's.   We grew dramatically,
    but generally the new hires were veterans from other companies, not
    fresh out of college types.  I do agree with hiring college grads even
    while we are having layoffs, I do not agree with hiring "free-agents" from
    other companies while we are having layoffs.
    
    BTW, for those who don't follow the Red Sox, they won't win their
    division this year (they'll be lucky to not finish in last place), and 
    acqusitions like Matt Young and Jack Clark didn't help out a whole lot.
    
    That's my two cents on DEC and the Red Sox.
    
    Al
    
    
    
     

    
    
    The "Back End" page of DEC Professional this week has a good discussion
    of young drive vs old wisdom,
    
    Simon

    During the 5.5 year I have been in Digital two of the often seen
    assets in Digital internal job advertisments have been
    	1. "need to know well Digital xxxx organisation"
    	2. "need to know well Digital  yyyy process"
    
    I would first say that if the most important values are like this
    it's the same whether you hire experienced people or green youngsters.
    You can easily kill new ideas from both.
    
    Second, if learning to know an organisation (even with 100 000
    people) or a used process needs that much effort, there is something
    wrong. Shouldn't our time be used with something more important.
    
    --Ritva 
                                           

    
    
    re: .33
    
    {"One reply here---.21 if I recall, is a bit off base in "attitude" in
    {my opinion.  If anyone expects Digital to "develop them" they are
    {fooling themselves.  Development is a personal responsibility.  Digital
    {will ALLOW you to develop yourself if you have the right stuff, and
    {they will let you stay in one place if that's what you want---as long
    {as you perform satisfactorily in your position.  To expect Digital to
    {come to anyone and try to push them into higher and more responsible
    {and better paying postions is a bit naive.."
    
    I agree that development is a personal responsibility.  Nobody is going
    to look out for you, you have to look out for yourself.  I don't expect
    Digital to come forward and push me into a higher and more responsible
    and better paying position ..... career advancement comes from hard
    work, determination, and good performance.  And if those factors are
    present, then I believe that development options should come about.
    In Digital they don't.
    
    What I said in my note (.21), or as I hoped to come across, is that
    Digital should pursue college hires and develop them if they want to
    keep them in the future.  I'm not saying that every collge hire should
    get career advancement on a silver platter .... hard work, good
    performance, etc. should lead to career advancment opportunities in
    Digital.  Is my attitude a bit "off base" and am I being naive about
    that?  The author of .33 stated that he has resented the "attitude" of
    people with degrees ... talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
    
    When the job market turns around, Digital will lose a ton of folks in
    my age bracket .... the college hires with five, six, seven, etc.
    years experience in this company will hop on the train to better
    opportunities.  Why?  Because many of them have not been able to
    achieve the career growth and success that they worked hard for in
    Digital.  I mentioned in .21 that I have no career advancement or
    growth opportunities.  I've worked hard to advance myself.  DEC has not
    allowed me to develop further than the entry level job I have.  I know
    of many others in the exact same situation as I am.  Examine the
    reasons why opportunities have not come about for many of us former
    college hires .... too many fat cats and more senior level people above
    us already, economic turbulence, poor management, inflated levels and
    salary structures, etc.  DEC has made it difficult (not impossible) for
    someone to advance, IMHO.  Digital has spent a lot of money training
    and educating people.  The bottom line is that if you don't develop and
    foster the younger employees they will leave (when the job market gets
    better).  I'm not naive; that is reality!  Good talent will leave for
    better opportunities .... unless better and more promising challenges 
    are presented before them within.
    
    Unless Digital changes the way it fosters its workforce development, it
    will lose very talented people.  Those of us who were hired out of
    college a few years ago are stuck in the entry level jobs with no room
    for advancement .... you could have all the qualifications and
    abilities and proven you can do the work of say, and Engineer II .....
    but you don't have a prayer of being promoted to that level until your
    pay falls within the range.  How many times have you seen coworkers, or
    even yourself, go for a higher level job than the one you have, only to
    get the offer downgraded to a level that matches your present salary? 
    How many of us college hires will put up with that once the job market
    turns around and we find out that we can take 20-30% pay increases and
    go work for the competition with an instant promotion.  My attitude is
    not off base .... I am calling it as I see it ... and I know of many,
    many people who agree with me .... again, it's not being naive, it's
    reality!  Digital should continue to take college hires!  And they
    should help them develop their careers .... or they WILL lose them to
    competition and all that will be left are the old timers.
    
    I can't understand why .33 resents the "attitude" of people with
    degrees.  I have my college degree and I worked darn hard for it.  I
    have a lot of respect for folks who have worked for many years in
    Digital .... but just because they have 20 years in Digital does not
    mean that they are the Grand Pooh-Bah of the computer industry. 
    Instead of resenting the attitudes of those of us with degrees, why not
    work to share your many years of experience with us, and work together
    with us to make Digital a better place?
    
    Mike 
    
    
    
    
    

    
    Mike,
    
    Love ya guy!
    
    -Ed
    

      Re .46
      Yeah...me too...only Mikey's not really focussing on the PROBLEM
    here, which is NOT the failure to develop college hires. It had nothing
    at all to do with college or non-college. It DOES have a LOT to do with
    what someonw else said here a few notes back---the "good old boy
    network" that has grown and prospered within Digital over the past 35
    years. This is the overload of managers who have friends who have
    friends who have friends. Many of those people just so happen to BE
    college grads... The problem with advancement is pretty simple...the
    company is so overloades with people who are in places because they
    have friends in higher places that they are blocking people from
    advancement.
    
      Hey, Mike..maybe yo oughta go back and read .33 again and TRY to use
    that degree learning to understand what the point was...because it
    really seems that you missed it totally. Congratulations on your
    degree. Some of us were either defending out country or feeding our
    families out of pure necessity...so we didn't have the opportunity you
    hve had... I'm not crying about that. I feel that I have had no problem
    at all competing with college people in MY career...but I get really
    ticked when a no-brain manager looks at a college and non-college
    individual and without even trying to or being capable of understanding
    what each is doing, chooses the sheepskin. Remember--almost if not all
    100% of Congress have degrees...and it's HIGHLY questionable that there
    are any real brains there...
    
      Share my experience?? I do so every day. Some listen and learn, some
    do not listen because they already KNOW everything...I can't help them. 
    A large percent of managers do not really have the capability of
    understanding their people's capabilities...so people are advanced and
    held back on personality issues...it's the old saying: It isn't WHAT
    you know, it's WHO you know. Maybe you've run into that situation
    Mike...I know that many times I have. I have NO intention of becoming a
    living example of "The Peter Principle", but i DO want to be judged on
    my work and potential, not on my wardrobe, brand of car, what type of
    sports I like, etc...and that IS a big part of many managers'
    performance review criteria. College hires should be pursued, and
    outside experienced people as well...but NOT just because they
    graduated or just because they worked for Raytheon should be the
    criteria. Managers should be required to learn hou to determine a
    person's potential and worth..
    
    JM

    I'll start by admitting up front that I am new to this conference...
    I read it as time permits on evenings and weekends.  I'll also state 
    that I am a 25 year employee, proud of it - and NOT one of the "good 
    old boys".
    
    I have just read a portion of this conference and after noting the 
    dates, times and authors of many of the responses, I'd like to ask 
    the following question, in all sincerity:
    
       "With all of the rightsizing going on within the company at this
    particular time, aren't any of you (especially the repeat-during-
    business-hours-respondees) at all nervous that either your manager, 
    or his/her manager will see how you are spending your time?"  
    
    What's even more terrifying to me, as both an employee AND as a 
    Digital stockholder, is that your immediate managers are ALREADY 
    aware, and don't care!
    
    I must conclude from some of the responses and respective authors 
    that your job descriptions must read: "Monitor and respond to the 
    DIGITAL notes file as you see fit from 8:30AM to 5:00PM, Monday 
    through Friday, taking time for lunch and breaks...  Correction - 
    lunch and breaks are optional."
    
    If this reply sounds just a teensy bit on the edge of sarcasm, I
    apologize.  I lost one of my very best friends and colleagues to the 
    "downsizing" this week.  He was a valuable, talented and dedicated 
    employee for 17 years.  He just happened to be in the wrong place at 
    the wrong time.  Then I read something like this where people are
    clearly monitoring a non-business notes conference and responding 
    within minutes of when the last entry was submitted!
    
    "Should we be hiring college grads?"  ABSOLUTELY - providing we
    don't tell them about non-business notes conferences!
    
    Regards;
  

    Sigh. First of all, this IS a business related conference as far as
    many participants are concerned. Second, your (US) business hours aren't 
    necessarily everyones. Third, some folks are on holiday and still noting 
    (hallo!). Fourth. if you have a workstation then whilst you're waiting for 
    something to complete in one window, you can note in another.
    
    Finally, you may be bitter that someone you know has been made
    redundant whilst others appear to not be working as hard as your
    departed friend did, but I'd caution you against basing your opinions
    on the contents of a notes file.
    
    Truly, with best regards,
    
    /andy

    re: .48
    
    I must admit that I may write a note during my working hours while
    needing a break from the regular work. But then, on the opposite
    side, I don't often have a lunch break because I don't like to eat
    much in the middle of the day and I may work from home, like now
    in Sunday evening at 23:50 Central European time. This conference
    then stamps my note to your time in US.
    
    Furthermore, I want to get a feeling of what is happening in the 
    company and this conference is one of the best for that for us ICs.
    
    I believe that the above applies to many, many other noters. Things 
    are not always what they look at first. 
    
    --Ritva

    
    I agree with .48 , I think we should write lock this 
    note file from between the horse of 9:00 AM to 5:30 P.M. every day except 
    holidays and birthdays.
    
    If this solution is not acceptable then instead we should 
    have an allowance number of times one can note, I suggest 2 times per day,
    no more, except in emergences such as the appointment of a new VP, or
    the announcements of a new vision.

    Studies have shown that noting more than twice per 24 hours can be
    harmful, if someone notes more than the minimum daily recommended 
    allowances then 1% of their weakly salary shall be taken away to 
    pay for the salary of new appointed person who will monitor such new 
    regulations and report them to the appropriate channels for further 
    evaluations and follow ups.
 
    There has been lately many noting here which is just nilly willy and of
    little concrete visionary effect of the DEC WAY OF LIFE, this has
    got to stop immediately, we must focus our thoughts on what is it 
    all about and adhere to the high values that is deep within all of us.

    I expect allot of people to voice resistance to this new rule, but
    I ask you to give this the deep thought that it rightly deserves.

    thank you,
    /Nasser

    re .48
    Productive employees can usually manage noting *and* work, although you
    may see them here on evenings, weekends, or holidays (it's Labor Day
    and I'm in the office catching up) when there's work that needs to be done.
    
    I'm typing on a terminal while waiting for my workstation to boot, for
    example.
    
    Employees who are not pulling their weight should be dealt with by
    their managers.  I would like to see them given goals to meet and
    judged accordingly rather than have noting or any other specific
    privilege curtailed.  Someone who wants to waste some time can always
    find a way, with or without notes.
    
    

    RE: .52
    
    >Someone who wants to waste some time can always find a way, with or
    >without notes.
    
    Yeh, and facilities even provides special rooms for some people to
    indulge their addictions.
    

    So back to the topic....
    
    (btw, on the proposal to write lock this notesfile 9 - 5:30; which
    timezone?)
    
    I just can't belive nobody strongly objected to college hires right
    now.  I read all the arguments presented in here, and they all make
    theoretical sense.  But this is real life!  Last week, 7 more people
    from Customer Service were laid off.  Rumor is, Sales and Sales Support
    are to be hit this coming week.
    
    Now, if you were a rookie college grad, how would you feel hiring in to
    an organization that had just cut 30-50 percent of its staff?  If you
    were an old-timer like me, 11 years at DEC, how would you feel after
    your best buddy were laid off and a couple weeks later that person's
    cubicle was occupied by a new college hire?  How would you feel if you
    were laid off and replaced by a new college grad?
    
    Now is absolutely *not* a good time to hire a bunch of new college
    hires.  Maybe in 12 months, but definitely not now.
    
    - Greg Scott

	The premise behind hiring college hires is that they bring new ideas
	and energy. Toss that out the window and does taking in college hires
	still sound like a good idea? I think not. And I've yet to hear a good
	case made that college hires do in fact bring in enough new ideas, if
	in fact they bring in any, to overcome the knowledge base of more
	experienced employees.

			Alfred

      Re .48
    
      About 80% of my work is NOT on the tube...I sometimes stay logged in
    and do that 80%. What have I done for Digital recently?? Saved the
    Corporation over $14,000,000.00...DOCUMENTED, by the way. According to
    the industry standard commonly used in my work, saving $1.00 at my
    level results in approximately $8.00 savings on the bottomline...so
    this 13 mil really translates into 108 million... B.T.W....this sort of
    a number is and has been pretty consistent annually for over 12 years
    now.... Not bad fer a un-edjakated high schooler, HUH??
    
      By the way....most wage-class 4's are expected to DO A JOB, not punch
    a timeclock. I DO have a manger who knows that I've consistently carried
    the heaviest workload in my department for years..and will continue to
    do so.. He knows I am not too good to get my hands dirty and do the
    sort of stuff that others try to skirt and go around...but which is
    also necessary to get the results.
    
      
      JM                                   

    re: .55  (THOMPSON)
    
>    And I've yet to hear a good case made that college hires do in fact
>    bring in enough new ideas, if in fact they bring in any, to overcome
>    the knowledge base of more experienced employees.
    
    I remember when I frist started at DEC.  I spent the first six months
    in utter disbelief in how poorly and inefficiently many things were done. 
    Quite a few changes for the good were made as a result of my untainted
    view.  After I was acclimated, SOP seemed OK to me.
    
    The "knowledge base of the more experienced employees" is not always a
    good thing.  Fresh young faces can often help identify highly
    ritualized behavioral problems and overcome them, *IF* you pay
    attention to them.
    
    -joe tomkowitz

    <<< Note 2090.54 by ANGLIN::SCOTTG "Greg Scott, Minneapolis SWS" >>>

    >(btw, on the proposal to write lock this notesfile 9 - 5:30; which
    >timezone?)

    well, Nashua, New Hamshire time zone offcourse !

    by the way, we should be careful that we dont say things not nice about 
    the newly hired college grads , some of them might be reading this right 
    now, and they will not feel too welcomed if they read that some people did 
    not want them be hired, we should be nice to them, it is probably their 
    first job, and they need to be made feel welcomed .

    I know we are mostly talking about the policy itself not about the newly 
    hired college grads themselves, I just wanted to make sure I give
    attention to this point , and to remember to be sensitive about this
    issue.

    the same old 2 cents offcourse,
    /Nasser
    I spell checked

re Note 2090.57 by JOET::JOET:

>     The "knowledge base of the more experienced employees" is not always a
>     good thing.  Fresh young faces can often help identify highly
>     ritualized behavioral problems and overcome them, *IF* you pay
>     attention to them.
  
        I agree, but I also note that "fresh" faces don't need to be
        "young".

        Bob

I would be surprised, if not instinctively annoyed, to hear a college
hire identify behavioral problems amongst his or her coworkers. Such 
a college hire would be one rare bird, and should be protected from
certain extinction. Yet, how often does a fresh "old" face actually 
feel like going head-to-head with a traditional methodology? There's
got to be some kind of reward system for taking the risk....

-PHiL 

    
    re: .58
    
        >>(btw, on the proposal to write lock this notesfile 9 - 5:30; which
        >>timezone?)
    
        >well, Nashua, New Hamshire time zone offcourse !
    
    
    Nasser must have answered before morning coffee... tsk, tsk. 
    The P.C. answer is, offcourse.........
    
          ALL TIMEZONES...we don't, won't, can't, etc. discriminate.
    
    So when it isn't 9 - 5:30 ANYWHERE in the world (or on a space shuttle,
    moon colony, etc.), then, and only then, will this conference be 
    available - and only for 'read only' access. 
    
    Surveys show that read only noters have a consistantly lower number of
    politically incorrectt entries and they waste fewer CPU cycles with
    Spell Checkers.
    
    Write on readers!
    
    J.B

    >Surveys show that read only noters have a consistantly lower number of
    >politically incorrectt entries and they waste fewer CPU cycles with
    >Spell Checkers.

    ya, sure, like a read only reader does enter a note, right?
    if it is only read only then how come it writes too?

    you must thing we are dump here to fall for this trick !

    about the Nashua , New hamshire time zone deal, I meant that since
    most of the DECees live/work around here, I was just meaning to affect
    a policy directed at the majority of our populations in large, since
    by implications it will have side effects to enlarge all over the 
    corporations, I did not mean that there were no DECees living outside
    this time zone.

    plus I dont like it when people tell me Iam not a PC !, for the two
    hundred thousand times: IAM A PC , PC , PC, PC , PC , and a good PC
    at that too .

    hope this helps clear this issues.

    thank you very much,
    /Nasser
    I spelled checked
     

	re .58:

>    <<< Note 2090.54 by ANGLIN::SCOTTG "Greg Scott, Minneapolis SWS" >>>
>
>    >(btw, on the proposal to write lock this notesfile 9 - 5:30; which
>    >timezone?)
>
>    well, Nashua, New Hamshire time zone offcourse !

	Hmmm, so I can read it as long as I avoid 1400 - 2230 British
	time. I'll give you one clue - I don't work much after 2230
	any more these days. So guess when I would be reading?

	Actually, this is all academic because I use RNU, so I just
	have to schedule my batch job to run outside 1400-2230, and
	I can sit and read Notes during working hours to my heart's
	content. 

	The people who make these decisions really don't understand computers.
	I just can't decide whether I'm glad or sorry about that.

	/Tom

>    about the Nashua , New hamshire time zone deal, I meant that since
>    most of the DECees live/work around here, I was just meaning to affect
>    a policy directed at the majority of our populations in large, since
 
	Nasser, I hate to dissapoint you, but there are more DEC employees
	that do not live in the same time zone as New Hampshire than do.

	Heather

    Folks, this silliness about time zones and reading notes has nothing to
    do with the topic.  Please stop this rathole.

    Bob - Co-moderator DIGITAL

    This office has let several salesreps go in the last few TFSO cycles.
    Recently hired a person not quite graduated.  To tell the truth she
    seems sharper than most of the departed.
    
    karl

	To extend the sports team analogy begun earlier - Do
	sports teams acquire only enough new players to replace those
	retiring? No, they acquire a number of new players both younger
	(draft) and experienced (trades, free agents). Then, the best n
	are selected to remain, and the others are let go, be they 
	young with no experience, or older, with many years of service.
	While this model isn't totally applicable, the notion that you 
	bring new blood, and then keep the top n, and let the rest go 
	seems to have some merit...

					Tom_K

    re .67
    
    Right, if you're making enough money to invest in the new blood.  Are
    we?
    
    Dick

    re .67:
      The sports team model works for sports teams, because there are *VERY*
    high levels of performance, several orders of magnitude, between poor
    and star sports performers.   
    
      According to anecdotal surveys, there are only differences of
    400-500% between, for example, high performing and poor performing
    software engineers.    Suspect this is similar for other engineering and
    administrative workers.   
    
      Of course, there are some in DEC that aren't performing *AT ALL* and
    non-performers should be removed.   But the organisational disruption
    that occurs from continually "changing the team" needs careful handling
    in sport (team coaches, star wages, league contest management, etc)
    and the effort's only justified by the very large differences in
    performance.   It doesn't fit well with a big continuing business, even
    with low-technology products, in the "silicon, software, services" markets.

    The following reply has been contributed by a member of our community
    who wishes to remain anonymous.  If you wish to contact the author by
    mail, please send your message to ROWLET::AINSLEY, specifying the
    conference name and note number. Your message will be forwarded with
    your name attached  unless you request otherwise.

    Bob - Co-moderator DIGITAL

    =========================================================================
Why are we talking about laying off 7000 people and still hiring externally?

A couple of weeks ago we ran a big (2 pages I think) add in the Help
Wanted section of the Boston Globe. Attached below is our Spring Campus
Recruiting Schedule (yes, Digital is interviewing people to fill real jobs).
Do you really believe that if we're laying off 7000 people, none of them
could fill these positions? 


I asked a couple of people in our group why we're looking to hire college
grads instead of hiring internally. They mentioned that...

College Grads...

  1. Are The lifeblood of the company. 
  2. Bring fresh ideas to Digital.
  3. Bring new academic ideas to the company.
  4. Are high energy, highly motivated people.


I believe that all the above can be true, but I also believe that people
within Digital bring the same qualities to the company. Don't we all take
courses internally as well as externally in local colleges? Even though we've
been here a couple of years aren't we still capable of a few fresh thoughts?
Aren't all these people I see putting in 16 hour days highly motivated?

So why are we putting people through the pain and agony of laying them off
only to turn around and hire someone new? Please don't get me wrong, I
realize that we should be hiring colleges grads, but I don't understand why
we have to layoff Digital employees to do it.

The people I talked to also mentioned that they have trouble finding
qualified people  internally  to fill the positions. I think they're looking
for people to do development work on PCs. One of them mentioned, "How do you
expect us to hire a VMS bigot, someone that's worked on VMS for ten years to
do PC development?" This attitude really bugs me. Anyone that's been coding
for 5-10 years can "easily" pick up development on another platform. There's
nothing "new" on a PC compared to any other platform, some of the ideas may
be different but the nuts and bolts  are the same. 

I work in one of the groups doing the hiring, and I know that although the
work around here is complex and technical it's not rocket science, anyone
that's been a software developer for more than a few years can handle the
work. If these people doing the hiring would just open their eyes and see the
value that digital employees have I think they'd be able to fill more of
these open positions internally.

So why are we letting qualified people go and hiring new people? The only
reason I can think of for hiring college grads is to save a few
bucks...layoff the "highly" paid people and hire college grads at half the
cost.

Ideas? Comments?


See your local Personnel office for more information...

SPRING ON CAMPUS RECRUITING SCHEDULE



Date	School		     Organ.	Site	    Degree(s)	Majors	     

1-18	RIT		     MTDP	BXC	    BS, MS	EE,CS,CE     
			     			    		 ME,IE

2-1	U Texas/Austin	     ENG	ZKO	    BS, MS	CS	     
	 (Natural Sciences)

2-1	U Texas/Austin	     SCO-Mfg	HLO	    BS, MS	EE, CE	     
	 (Engineering)

2-2	Northeastern	     MTDP	BXC	    BS, MS	EE,CS,CE     
			     			    		 ME,IE

2-8	WPI		     MTDP	BXC	    BS, MS	EE,CS,CE     
			     			    		 ME,IE
			     ENG	ZKO	    BS, MS	CS	     
			     ENG	TAY	    MS		CS	     
			     SCO-Mfg	HLO	    BS, MS	EE, CE	     

2-9	U New Mexico	     MTDP	BXC	    BS, MS	EE,CS,CE     
			     			    		 ME,IE
2-10	U Michigan	     ENG	ZKO	    BS, MS	CS	     
			     SCO-Mfg	HLO	    BS, MS	EE, CE	     

2-10	U Mass/Lowell	     ENG	ZKO	    BS, MS	CS	     

2-10	U Cal/Berkeley	     SCO	HLO	    BS, MS	EE	     

2-14	Yale U		     ENG	TAY	    BS, MS	CS	     

2-15	Georgia Tech	     MTDP	BXC	    BS, MS	EE,CS,CE     
			     			    		 ME,IE	       

2-16	U Mass/Amherst	     MTDP	BXC	    BS, MS	EE,CS,CE     
			     			    		 ME,IE
			     ENG	ZKO	    BS, MS	CS	     
			     ENG	TAY	    BS, MS	CS	     
			     SCO-Mfg	HLO	    BS, MS	EE, CE	     

2-18	MIT		     MTDP	BXC	    BS, MS	EE,CS,CE,    
			     			    		 ME, IE
			     ENG	TAY	    BS, MS	CS	     
			     ENG	ZKO	    BS, MS	CS	     
			     SCO	HLO	    BS, MS	EE	     

2-18	Cornell		     SCO	HLO	    BS, MS	EE	     

2-21	Dartmouth	     ENG	TAY	    BS, MS	CS	     

2-22	U Illinois	     SALES	ACI	    BS		CS, Business 
			     ENG	ZKO	    BS, MS	CS	     
			     SCO	HLO	    BS, MS	EE	     

2-23	U Illinois	     SCO-Mfg	HLO	    BS, MS	EE, CE	     

2-23	CMU		     SCO	HLO	    BS, MS	EE 	     

2-23	RPI		     MTDP	BXC	    BS, MS	EE,CS,CE     
			     			    		 ME,IE
			     ENG	ZKO	    BS, MS	CS	     
			     SCO	HLO	    BS, MS	EE	     

2-25	Brown		     ENG	TAY	    BS, MS	CS	     

2-25	Cornell		     MTDP	BXC	    BS, MS	EE,CS,CE     
			     			    		 ME,IE
			     ENG	TAY	    BS, MS	CS	     
			     ENG	ZKO	    BS, MS	CS	     

3-1	Penn State	     SCO-Mfg	HLo	    BS, MS	EE, CE	     

3-8	Harvard Univ	     ENG	TAY	    BS, MS	CS	     

3-9	U New Hampshire	     ENG	ZKO	    BS, MS	CS	     
			     ENG	TAY	    BS, MS	CS	     

3-17	U Wisc/Business	     SALES	ACI	    BS		CS, Business 


unscheduled requests:

	Howard		     MTDP	BXC	    BS, MS	EE,CS,CE     
			     			    		 ME,IE

Information Sessions:

2-7	WPI		     SCO-MFG	HLO	    			     
2-9	U Cal/Bkly	     SCO	HLO	    			     
2-21	U Illinois	     SCO	HLO	    			     
2-28	Penn State	     SCO-Mfg		    			     


Unscheduled Information Sessions

	U Massachusetts	     SCO-MFG	HLO	    			     
	U Michigan	     SCO-MFG	HLO	    			     
    

One of the problems (at least in my group) is its hard to find someone to do
the work of a SW Engineer I if they are a principal or senior.  And if we did,
they would probably be very unhappy with the job in short order and that would
cause more trouble.

    While I am CERTAINLY sensitive to the needs of established DIGITAL
    employees and an advocate of judiciously retaining such folks (having
    been retained thru some bad patches myself!), I'd like to mention a
    corollary to .71 and the "new blood" notion.  One good thing about
    college hires is that "they don't know what's impossible."
    
    That said, I'd also like to emphasize the importance of STAYING CURRENT
    with changing technologies -- even if you have to do this AT YOUR OWN
    EXPENSE.  I find it highly ironic to pass classrooms on our premises
    where, apparently, recently-TFSOed folks are being taught PC skills. 
    Offering ALL-IN-1(tm) and WPS-PLUS (not to mention DECwrite and
    DECpresent) skills in a job interview situation will get you a kindly
    and rueful smile -- if you're lucky.
    

    RE:  70
    
    I agree, it seems stupid to hire people from outside the company while
    laying off internals who could easily be shifted.  Besides, if I was a
    college hire I sure wouldn't want to take a job in a company who may
    turn around and lay me off when my job did a disappearing act.
    
    However, I wanted to mention a point from your note...you said that
    someone implied VMS bigots couldn't transition to PC work.
    
    I remember very well when we started doing ULTRIX in our area.  There
    was a big "war" over which was better, VMS or ULTRIX, with the VMS
    people insisting that VMS would save our company.  There was strong
    resistance to use ULTRIX as an operating system, and to this day I
    often here, "Oh, you're one of those Ultrix weenies," like it's a
    disease.  When I tell them I do VMS too, they sneer and act like I'm a
    traitor.
    
    So for some people I think that is true.  They have a hard time moving
    from something they think is the end-all to computer operating systems.
    Another reply has a point too...
    
    Would someone who was a consultant want to take a spec II job just to
    have a job?  Or would it hurt their pride that they were taking a step
    down?
    
    
    

College hires are important to Digital.  So are experienced employees.

In order to participate in college recruitment programs at well known
and respected colleges, Digital must commit to and demonstrate a certain
minimum level of college hiring.  This presence on college campuses and
the relationships we have established over many years are important to
Digital beyond just the number of graduates hired.

Digital's problems are not the fault of management or employees alone,
they are problems with the system we have created together and how it
responds to changes in the marketplace.

Resisting the college hiring program does little to help Digital as
a whole.  It is mis-directed energy that is needed to heal our company.

- Peter

    
    I know of a few people who were TFSO'd & are now (being) rehired.  
    
    Mike

    Actually, the answer is simple: college hires cost a lot less than an
    experienced, fully-benefitted 'old-timer'. You can pay them a lot less
    and make them work a lot more and most  don't have families to
    support which add to the 'benefit burden'. All this stuff about current
    technology and highly motivated, etc. is a smokescreen. Who's more
    highly motivated than a worker with a family to support, feed, etc.?
    And apparently a lot of us are taking advantage of educational benefits
    or they wouldn't have threatened to cut them off a few months ago.
    
    Wow, I must have worn my cynic's hat to work this morning! 8-}