Conference 7.286::digital

    I have some info about hourly rates for technical writers doing
    contract work in New England.  I've been told by someone who is
    doing it now that the rates are dropping by $1/hr every month.
    Lots of competition for the work now.
    
    *Susan

   What do you mean by "getting work".  If I were to get ax today, and
   if I wanted to stay in my location (Dayton, Ohio) I would have to
   take about a 30%-50% pay cut.  There is little demand for computer
   people here and next to zero demand for Digital people here.
   
   One of the things we have always touted about VMS is that you don't
   need a bevy of support personnel to keep them running.  Guess what? 
   Our customers in Dayton have figured that out.  Many of them are
   cutting their VMS staffs and getting along fine (status quo).  No new
   applications, but the current systems are keeping up.
   
   If I get the ax, and I want to stay in computers, I will have to
   become a Unix (i.e. Sun) expert real quick, or move to Cincy or
   Columbus.

    Last winter an instructor I had was laid off from Wang. he had a 
    new job in a couple of weeks or less. I asked him about it. His 
    reply was that there are jobs out there. BUT
    
    They don't pay what you want.
    They're not located where your want to wonk.
    They're not doing what you want to do.
    
    If you can live with those things - no problem. Of course this guy
    had years of experiance doing everything from applications to drivers
    and compiliers.
    
    		Alfred
    
    PS: One friend of mine who took SERP got a $10,000 signing bonis with
    the company who hired hima nd moved him to the left coast. Agains he
    had some special skills.

    Somehow, I think the tears and gnashing of teeth are not about jobs,
    but about careers.  It seems that some of us built our lives around
    this thing called a "career" which is part reality and part myth.  One
    of the myths is that "you are in charge of your career".  Well, you
    are, within limits.  And Digital is now telling some people what the
    limits are for them.
    
    Many will be able to find new jobs.  But their "careers" have been shot
    down.
    
    Dick

    
    
       I too have had several friends and associates who have for one
    reason or another left this company as well as other computer
    companies.  In speaking with some they say it's all how you can market
    yourself and your skill sets.   I know some who have made out rather
    well and some who think they should be making what they were making
    here at DEC or a competitor.  However, it is a simple fact of "supply
    and demand".  The hiring companies know full right that the market
    is saturated with "competent" people to fill vacancies within their
    ranks.  Now picture yourself as a hiring company knowing that the
    latest round of (specualted) layoffs (or whatever you want to call it)
    are going to more than likely bear some good candiates with special
    talents from DEC, Prime, Data-General and whoever is else is getting
    rid of these higher paid folks.
    
    "Well Mr./Ms X, I can see that that you have many of the skills that
    we require to fill the position.  However, the salary requirements
    that you are looking for are not within the current market.  Now would
    you be willing to come down by $5K (7K, 10K).
    
    Yep, it reverts back to "supply and demand" and what the market will
    bear.
    
    Just my thoughts and some information from people who have gone through
    it already.
    
    Bob Montville

    The past few times I've been contacted by outside firms has apparently 
    been because they seem hopeful that I'll be offered "the package" and will
    be willing to come down in salary in order to hire on with them.  Can't
    really blame them.  It's probably happened a lot already.
    
    Steve

    I've already started to look outside of Digital ...  like everyone
    else, I'm waiting to see/hear what will happen to my organization.
    
    In talking to several headhunters and contract agencies, the general
    consensus seems to be that if you are TECHNICAL, or have special
    skills, that there are jobs out there.  Companies always need someone
    to do the actual, physical work.  (VMS people should make an effort now
    to start learning UNIX, if you haven't already.)
    
    However, if you are looking for LESS TECHNICAL positions, e.g., Product
    Marketing, Management, etc. the competition becomes a little more
    fierce.  My husband was looking for a job in retail marketing; he had
    the experience and his MBA.  (He was laid off from a fish manufacturer
    mid-May).  He contacted 72 companies in New England, and was turned down 
    by all of them his first month out.  After some discussion, he's agreed 
    to  open his channels ... now he's considering returning to Sales, as
    well as looking out of state.  Right now, we have bills to pay ... and a 
    job is a job.
    
    I think that that is the key - you have to be willing to look at a
    range of different jobs, and consider the option of a cut in pay.  How
    much do you really need to earn to pay the morgage?  Granted, more is
    always better ... but something that pays the bills is better than
    nothing at all.  A friend of mine has a husband in real estate in NH ...
    every day he acquires property that has been foreclosed ... people just
    pack up their bags and walk away from their houses. 

    In the 80s, the pay scales were all escalating up and up...job hopping
    and doubling income. Seems the trend is reversing. Also, kind of sad is
    the deminishing notion of "career". Many have sacrificed raising
    families, geographical statbility...etc all in the name of career and
    ladder climbing and how has it repaid them in the end...
    

re .8:

>    In the 80s, the pay scales were all escalating up and up...job hopping
>    and doubling income.

I used to get 15-20% annual raises (pre-DEC), but that was in an era of
double-digit inflation.

    
    Friend of mine working in DEC, also ready relocate to West Coast next
    week. Strangely enough, DEC west coast willing to pick him up, but
    offer no relacation package at all. And Finally, he choose the current
    small scale firm offer him relocation package. He had 8-9 yrs of SW
    support, SW devlopment experience.
    
    Rgd, the pay scale discussion, the high pay of 80's is long gone.
    Due to the slow growth of economy and fierce competition of computer
    industry, I don't see any company such as DEC can afford higher pay
    increase or better competitive salary in forseeable future.
    
    FWIW
    Michael
    
    

    Skill set seems to be the key.  If you are in sales, the job market
    is verrrry tight right now.
    
    If you can equate it to how we describe the housing market; sometimes
    it is a sellers market, sometimes a buyers market.  Right now, any
    company with a few job slots can choose to be extremely picky.  A
    TFSO'd sales friend is running into scenarios where the hiring
    companies are offering ridiculously low base salaries....you're ex-
    pected to make it up in commissions, benefit mileage varies greatly.
    She says the attitude seems to be take it or leave it <--- someone
    else WILL bite.
    
    

    
    Well, I, for one, will have to find out the hard way, as I was TFSO'd
    yesterday.
    
    My brother, who has been through this several times, says looking for a
    job IS a full-time job itself.  Guess I'm gonna find out the hard
    way...

re relo to left coast: I hear it costs Digital about 100k every time they relo 
someone from right to left coast. In this climate, that may affect things
because there are plenty of people (probably more than in Mass) both
internal and external to DEC looking for work in Calif right now.

erik

    
    Hmmm...
    
    You saying east coasters are looking for jobs in CA?  
    They might have a rude awakening when they see how little home 
    they can get for their money.
    
    Yes, the job market is a little better in Sillycon Valley, but 
    the deterioration in lifestyle might make it easier to leave the
    computer biz and take a lesser-paying job in a cheaper locale.
    
    My $.02
    
    BTW, I know of at least three cases where DEC moved someone out
    here only to see them leave the company or get relocated back when
    they saw how tough things are.
    
    -Ed
    
                                                                   

    
    	There was an ad in yesterday's Boston Globe help wanted section
    	targeted at 'SERP's and TFSO's'. 
    
    	John

    RE:.15
    
    John:
    
    Could you elaborate what the ad contained, etc?

    
    
    	It didn't have a lot of detail...it advertised positions in
    	marketing/management, if I recall correctly. It was looking for
    	"entrepenuarial" types. It had a fax # to send resumes to.
    	
    	I'll dig it out and post it tonight.
    
    	Joh

    -1

    Probably one of those "send a self-addressed stamped envelope and
    xxx dollars" to learn how to make big bucks fast!  

    justme....jacqui

    
                   **SERP/TFSOers**
    
    Seeking SERPers and TFSOers to join the 24th fastest growing co. in
    the U.S. with a $1 Billion/sales base. The innovative and expanding
    product line focus on the environment and education in both the U.S
    and int'l markets. There are marketing/mgt. positions for every level
    of SERPers. This means an opp. for Exec/entrepeneurial personnel to
    transition into a financially rewarding career. No investment req.
    FAX resume: 617-935-2581.
    
    This was reprinted without permission from the Boston Globe, Sunday,
    August 9, 1992.

    
    Of course I have no stake, financially or otherwise, in the ad that
    I posted. I find it ironic that advertisers are using 'SERP' and
    'TFSO' in their ads..
    
    Just replying to the base note...
    
    John

    It is easier to find work if you get a headhunter, I dont know
    about them, but the headhunters seem to be a good source to find
    a good job, they do all the leg work for you, and contact you when
    they find something they think you'll want.

    I never seen a headhunter my self, and I have no idea where they live,
    or how they look like, but some of my friends did get jobs using 
    headhunters.

    I think headhunters are different from a plain job agent, I think a
    headhunter is more specialized, and you must be really good for a 
    headhunter to help you out, I think you must be like a consultant
    or even a manager for headhunters to be interested in you, headhunters
    seem to work on commission, and so the more you make, the more they'll
    want to help you out.

    hope this helps.
    
    thank you,
    /Nasser
    I spell checked

    re: the want-ad
    
    
    Bet its AMWAY  ;-)
    
    
    Tim
    

    Re:  a couple back
    
    What exactly is a "headhunter"? I've heard the term, but
    never knew who they were, what they did, or where to find
    them.
    
    Are they just another name for employment agencies?
    
    Any insight would help.....
    

"Headhunter" means "executive search consultant", the folks the companies
hire to find a new CEO or key technical person.  It's become more or
less synonymous with professional empolyment agency these days.

It's generally better if you do NOT go through a headhunter to land a
position if you can avoid it.  The reason:  your employer has to pay the
headhunter some fraction of your annual salary as a search fee.  That
usually ends up meaning that the employer's top offer must be n% lower
if you go through the headhunter.

--PSW

    re .24 
    
    I haven't found that to be true.  Most companies, if they are receptive
    to headhunters at all, will make offers to applicants based on
    qualifications and the company's pay scale, without regard to whether
    the applicant came through a headhunter or mailed a resume direct. 
    Some companies have a "principals only" policy, especially in times of
    tight budgets.  However, some companies use headhunters that they trust
    to pre-screen candidates and view the service as value added.
    
    I've gotten jobs both ways, direct and through a headhunter.  A good
    one is a valuable source of information and will know about jobs that
    never make it into the want-ads.  A bad one can be a major pain.  Get
    recommendations from your associates to find a good one.
    
    Tony

    re: headhunters
    I'd guess that as companies "outsource" anything that they'd 
    not consider as "core business" it might affect recruiting as
    well. You could miss plenty of opportunities if you exclude
    "headhunters" or other agencies in your job hunting.
    /fred

    
    
    re: .24 and .25
    
    In the past, many companies paid the headhunter; the search firm's fees
    got picked up by the employer.  Today, however, it's a buyer's market
    and not a seller's.  In other words, it's the individual that needs the
    employer, not so much the employer who needs the individual.  What many
    headhunters are doing these days is charging a fee to the person
    looking for the job.
    
    I checked out two headhunters over the past couple of months.  They are
    more than willing to work with you to find a new position .... but what
    they don't tell you until the end of their salespitch is that it's
    going to cost YOU money.  In one case, I was told that they would only
    charge me their minimal fee of $2500.  In another, the fee was $560. 
    What irked me the most was that I felt I was mislead twice .... I point
    blank asked (via telephone), before I would even discuss setting up a
    meeting, whether or not the agency charged a client fee.  Both
    headhunters told me "no."  Then when they get you face-to-face and
    butter you up all warm and fuzzy about how they can place you in a new
    position making 20% more than what you presently earn do they drop the
    small fee routine on you.  I don't agree with paying someone $2500 to
    find me a new job.
    
    Not all search firms do this.  But I've found more and more are
    operating this way.  The ones that don't are SWAMPED with resumes and
    cannot handle the overflow.
    
    .26 makes a good point.  "You could miss plenty of opportunities if you
    exclude "headhunters" or other agencies in your job hunting."  I guess
    that given the state of the jobs these days, you need to decide if you
    are willing to pay money out of your own pocket.
    
    Careful of the agencies.
    
    - Mike 

           <<< HUMANE::DISK$DIGITAL:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< The DEC way of working >-
================================================================================
Note 2031.28           What is the job market really like?              28 of 28
SMEGOL::COHEN                                        20 lines  11-AUG-1992 12:12
                          -< Like Real Estate Agents >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Some people might consider "headerhunters" the equivalent of a Real
    Estate agent; expensive to use but possessing valuable information that
    you wouldn't have access to any other way.  i.e., they may know about
    job openings that you won't through your networking and the papers.  So
    they are useful.  But you want the respected  agencies with access to
    this "information" and not agencies that will mass mail your  resume. 
    (You can do that yourself).   They can be as professional or slimey as
    any profession.

    Charging a fee bothers me a great deal.  It makes me wonder about the
    "true"  capability of the agency.  Either they can't earn a living
    placing people solely by company fees or they are opportunistic in
    these hard times.   I would be hard  pressed to pay someone to help
    place me.   Not really a question of pride as much as a question of
    well spent money.  Do you get your money back if they can't place you?  

    Of course, it's easy for me to say this now, but I don't think spending
    the money would help get me the job....

		Bob Cohen
 
    

re: .22

No, that can't be Amway...Amway is doing over $5 Billion this year.

    re - The ad in the Globe
    
    This could be almost any company which is looking to do to us what we
    have done so skillfully in the past; namely hiring people with account
    or portfolio specific knowledge and contacts for Who they know, not
    necessarily what they can do.  We are a fortune 100/500 focused company
    with many lucrative accounts.  One key portfolio or account manager
    could provide a multi-million dollar contact to an aggresive company,
    and then the companies own sales force could handle the close.  How
    many of these people have left the company recently?
    
    Of course, how long would they need you before they decided it would be
    more beneficial to go out and get a fresh body?
    Just a different perspective.
    
    /greg
    

    Shoot, they may even be getting this information by pumping them during
    the interview(s).  Then, they don't even have to hire them.
    
    Steve

    re -1
    
    Maybe, but I'd wager you wouldn't get the same milage from "Hi, I know
    Steve Sherman and he gave me your name" as you would if Steve Sherman
    called the vp of MIS for Acme-Mart, set up a dinner meeting during the
    biggest trade show of the year, and then went with you and personally
    introduced you to the lady in question.  Or would you?
    
    Just a thunk.
    
    /greg

    Just so you folks can stop guessing who our 'new competitor' is...
    
    .19>product line focus on the environment and education in both the U.S
    
    The ad is for NSA, the water and air treatment folks. They recently
    branched into selling some kind of educational materials for kids. A
    friend recently took me to one of their meetings. I didn't take the
    bait. ;-)
    
    Harry