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Conference 7.286::digital

Title:	The Digital way of working

Moderator:	QUARK::LIONELON

Created:	Fri Feb 14 1986
Last Modified:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	5321
Total number of notes:	139771

1985.0. "Can we "Catch a Wave?"" by RANGER::JCAMPBELL () Tue Jul 14 1992 16:35

    I would like to start a discussion about what I think might be the
    future - of the computer industry, and particularly of Digital.
    
    I believe that, as in the Beach Boys' tune, we could "Catch a Wave"
    and we would be "sitting on top of the world". But I think most of
    us, and particularly our executives and the BOD, can't see the wave.
    
    The wave I'm talking about is caused by once-small company
    in Redmond, Washington. It's called Windows-NT.
    
    The next two entries in this note are a trip report from the NT
    Developers' Conference by Barry Tannenbaum, and an announcement from
    Microsoft about development tools for the Windows environment.
    
    I believe the revolution in computing that started with a lame
    operating system and lame hardware - MS-DOS on the Intel 8086 - is
    going to be accelerated by the advent of a real operating system that
    makes the Intel 386-based systems into real multitasking workstations.
    
    We can choose to be part of this revolution, we can "catch a wave",
    or we can choose not to - I frankly think at our peril.
    
    This is a pretty strong statement. It is based on these premises and
    predictions:
    
    1. MS-DOS, with Windows 3.x, is essentially the owner of the
    desktop. There are 100 million PCs running MS-DOS, with 10-15 million
    of those running Windows 3.x. Windows-3.1 is selling almost 1 million
    copies per month. (1 million is about the size of Digital's entire
    installed base of VMS systems).
    
    2. Windows-NT is a real operating system, designed by Dave Cutler,
    former VMS and then MICA architect. When I went to a seminar about
    WNT, the developer showed us the system parameter listing, and it
    looked like a SYSGEN SHOW listing. It has many or most of the features
    of VMS, plus some borrowed from other sophisticated operating systems.
    
    3. WNT boasts compatibility with Windows 3.x and MS-DOS applications.
    That's an upgrade path for the the largest
    selection of applications in the world. Many premier spreadsheet,
    word-processing, stock analysis, desktop publishing, graphics,
    and relational
    database applications run on MS-DOS and/or Windows 3.x. (Microsoft Excel
    Lotus 1-2-3, Microsoft Word, Lotus Ami Pro, Microsoft Publisher,
    Corel Draw, FoxPro, Clipper). Some of the best compilers and CASE
    tools run in the Windows environment (Borland C++, 
    
    4. WNT's character set is UNICODE, the now-accepted international
    16-bit standard character set. All strings, all string arguments,
    all characters are UNICODE. There is NO OTHER operating system
    that can boast this capability. This is extremely important for
    the international market. It means that you can have usernames,
    filenames, error strings, etc., in foreign texts without the gross
    translation that occurs today for internationalization.
    
    
    Consider what has already happened to the face of computing in the
    Fortune-1000 companies as a result of
    PCs, MS-DOS, and PC networks. As application developers realized they
    could get rich alot more quickly writing MS-DOS and Windows
    applications than writing UNIX or VMS or MVS applications, and as
    some fine applications proliferated, the terminals that used to be
    connected to minis, midis, and mainframes have been displaced by
    PCs connected to file servers. PCs now account for more than 60% of
    desktop devices, and the file servers are usually "high-end" Intel
    boxes running Novell Netware.
    
    Typical PC prices are now about $2000-$3000 for a 50 MHz 486 with 16M
    of RAM and 100-150 MB disks. When you get it, all the software is
    pre-loaded (No VMSInstall). For a few hundred more, you can have a
    "workstation-size" monitor. For $200 you
    can buy a board and software for your PC that allows you to send mixed
    voice-and-text mail with Microsoft's mail program. You can buy a
    scanner and software for $200 which will allow you to read an image
    or text; it comes with OCR software to compress the text that is
    incredibly precise. Many PCs today come with a built-in
    send-and-receive FAX modem. For $200 more, you get software that
    sends and receives Windows images.
    
    High-end Intel boxes are quickly taking the place of workstations.
    A 50 MHz 486 with a big monitor, running WNT, provides you with
    most or all of the power most people need for workstations.
    
    So where's Digital? Our high-end VAX products, most of them based
    on terminals connected to a timesharing operating system, are not
    selling, because they are out of synch with reality. The exception
    is PATHWORKS - we are selling high-end file servers running VMS
    PATHWORKS. Our low-end products - workstations
    - are being ignored because they are expensive (compared to PCs),
    are hard to set up (compared to PCs), and don't run as many
    applications as PCs.
    
    Now, I ask, where can Digital be?
    
    1. We can be on the software forefront, by taking the applications we have,
    that we determine are best-in-class, and porting them to NT to run
    on Intel and Alpha hardware. We can sell them the same as Microsoft
    and Borland do, in computer stores, for competitive prices, and make
    bundles of money because the potential customer base is VAST.
    
    2. We can sell Alpha workstations and Alpha PCs, and pre-package
    software on them, just like Packard-Bell and Gateway do for PCs.
    We can take their order at 1-800-Digital, and send out their systems
    the next day via UPS.
    
    3. We can develop new software to run on NT.
    
    4. We can port our own customers' applications to run on NT-Alpha
    if they choose to make the transition, and continue to support our
    VMS customers who decide not to make the transition.
    
    Is this too radical a change for Digital?
    
    						Jon Campbell
    						PATHWORKS for OpenVMS-Alpha
    						Tech Lead

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
1985.1	Barry Tannenbaum - NT Developer's Conference	RANGER::JCAMPBELL		`Tue Jul 14 1992 16:47`	191
1985.2	MS-Windows Development Environment	RANGER::JCAMPBELL		`Tue Jul 14 1992 16:51`	239
	From: RANGER::SPRUNG "It's always something 06-Jul-1992 2101" 6-JUL-1992 21:03:03.60 To: @\dis\vns CC: Subj: MS-Windows app development environment ----- Begin message from MSEDEV::MUNROE 6-Jul-92 From: MSEDEV::MUNROE "Rebecca Munroe 232-2374 06-Jul-1992 1639" 6-JUL-1992 17:00 To: @GEN CC: MUNROE Subj: microsoft eassse-of-use design factors From: ISLNDS::MALTZMAN "06-Jul-1992 0812" 6-JUL-1992 08:33:18.40 To: @CA. CC: MALTZMAN Subj: CUSTOMER SAT COMPETITIVE FYI: MICROSOFT EASE-OF-USE DESIGN FACTORS Microsoft introduced an application design guide for windows user interfaces. Contains artistic guidelines, library of icons and cursors that can go right in applications, and terminology in 13 languages. Looks like this might become a big item..........Alan REDMOND, Wash.--(03-JUL-92 BUSINESS WIRE)--Microsoft Wednesday announced a family of products that will help foster consistency and ease-of-use among applications designed to run in the Microsoft Windows environment. The new user interface design tools include: -- A 220-page application design guide that provides instructions for designing user interfaces. -- A set of companion disks that offer an example application, artistic guidelines for designing graphical elements of the user interface, and a library of icons and cursors that can be incorporated directly into applications. -- A Microsoft University course on user interface design. -- A terminology reference that provides user interface terms in 13 languages ``We've gotten a great many requests from developers for help in designing user interfaces for Windows-based applications,'' said Jonathan Lazarus, vice president of systems strategy at Microsoft. ``This family of products provides a complete set of tools and guidelines for designing user interfaces. This lets developers build applications that fully exploit what we've termed `The Windows Interface.''' WHAT IS `THE WINDOWS INTERFACE?' -------------------------------- The Windows Interface is what the user interacts with and experiences while using the Windows environment. That interaction is dependent on the underlying Windows technology, but more importantly, how software integrates those technology factors into the user interface design. There are five major design factors that user interface designers can choose to exploit: data integration, input/output interfaces, consistency, ease-of-use, and scalability. Ideally, future applications for Windows will incorporate all these design factors and take advantage of the supporting technologies that the Windows environment provides. The Windows Interface tools and information will help developers address consistency and ease-of-use design factors, which are all imminently important issues in computing today. Though Microsoft is committed to helping developers write more consistent applications for Windows, Lazarus pointed out that the consistency guidelines are totally voluntary. In fact, there may be some recommendations that do not apply to a certain applications. Our goal is to provide a suite of user interface products to use as a baseline when designing a Windows-based application. THE WINDOWS INTERFACE: APPLICATION DESIGN GUIDE ------------------------------------------------ A key element of the user interface tool set is The Windows Interface: An Application Design Guide. This 220-page book provides extensive guidelines for designing user interfaces for Windows-based applications. It includes both general principles and methodologies, and specific recommendations for menu items, screen elements, dialog boxes and more. It is available today in bookstores at a suggested retail price of $24.95, and may be ordered directly from Microsoft Press by calling 800-MSPRESS. In Canada, call Macmillan Canada at 416/293-8141. It is also shipping with the Microsoft Windows operating system Version 3.1 Software Development Kit. COMPANION DISKS --------------- A set of companion disks to the ``Windows Interface: An Application Design Guide'' is also available. These disks include the following materials: The Windows Interface: Interactive Design Guide The Windows Interface: Interactive Design Guide, developed by Microsoft Consulting Services, is a demonstration application that incorporates the ideas and recommendations presented in ``The Windows Interface: An Application Design Guide.'' It also includes an on- line version of the manual's contents with powerful, full-text searching capabilities for instant access to all descriptions the user is interested in locating. When the sample application is run in information mode, clicking on any user interface item will bring up the explanation of that item from the Application Design Guide. When the application is run in demonstration mode, clicking on an item will cause it to behave just as it would in a normal application. It's also possible to launch the on-line reference manual directly. THE WINDOWS INTERFACE: VISUAL DESIGN GUIDE ------------------------------------------- The Visual Design Guide is an on-line reference that complements the information in ``The Windows Interface: An Application Design Guide.' It focuses on artistic considerations, such as how to use color effectively, how to design icons, and how to make buttons look raised, depressed, and inactive. It also contains examples of visuals, including toolbars, icons and different types of buttons. THE WINDOWS INTERFACE: BUTTONS AND CURSORS ------------------------------------------- The Windows Interface: Buttons and Cursors is a library of images that developers can incorporate directly into their applications. It includes button images for such commands as Cut, Copy, Paste, Open File, New File, File Close, Save, Print, and Help, and additional cursors such as the hourglass, arrow, cross-hairs, and I-beam. The disk includes license agreements, allowing developers to use the images in their products royalty-free. The disk also comes with a dynamic link library (DLL) that can create all states of a button (ex. raised, depressed, inactive) from the surface area of the button. By shipping their applications with this DLL instead of bitmaps for each button in each state, developers can significantly reduce the size of their applications. The DLL will also work with any custom button images the developer creates. An example application included on the disk demonstrates how the DLL is used in applications. Source code is provided for both the example application and the DLL, allowing developers to see the logic that is used and modify it if desired. The license allows the DLL to be distributed in modified form. The disk also includes an on-line document that explains how to use both the DLL and the example application. Users may download Buttons and Cursors from CompuServe on the Microsoft forum. Microsoft is making this product available at no charge to encourage consistency in the use of buttons and cursors. The above user interface design tools may be licensed by software vendors as part of the Open Tools License program. The companion disks are available today at a suggested retail price of $24.95 and can be ordered directly from Microsoft Press. Registered users who purchased the book will be offered a special upgrade price of $14.95 for the companion disks. A future edition of the Application Design Guide will come with the disks and will have a suggested retail price of $39.95. MICROSOFT UNIVERSITY COURSE --------------------------- Microsoft University recently introduced User Interface Design for Microsoft Windows 3.1, a one-day course, to their programming curriculum. This course complements the material in ``The Application Design Guide,'' providing more detail on the principles and methodologies involved in creating effective user interfaces, along with information on testing applications for ease of use. Courses from Microsoft University are available through MSU Training Alliance members, customer onsites and through a variety of Microsoft University locations; interested parties should call Microsoft University at 206/828-1507 for details. TERMINOLOGY REFERENCE --------------------- The final tool in the user interface product set is a terminology reference guide that is still in production. This localization guide contains definitions, plus equivalent terms, in 13 languages for such user interface terms as scroll bar, title bar, minimize and maximize. More than 400 user interface terms are included. The terminology reference will be provided in both print and on-line form. It will be available from Microsoft Press this fall. SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS ------------------- All of the above design tools require the use of the Windows operating system version 3.1, which requires MS-DOS Version 3.1 or later (version 5.0 or later recommended); a PC with at least a 80286 microprocessor (80386SX or higher recommended); and 640K conventional plus 256K extended memory. A pointing device is strongly recommended along with a 5.25-inch high-density or 3.5-inch disk drive and a hard disk with 6MB available (10MB recommended); EGA, VGA, Super VGA, XGA, 8514/A, Hercules* graphics card or compatible video graphics adapter and monitor support by the Windows operating system (color VGA or better recommended). Founded in 1975, Microsoft (NASDAQ:MSFT) is the worldwide leader in software for personal computers. The company offers a wide range of products and services for business and personal use, each designed with the mission of making it easier and more enjoyable for people to take advantage of the full power of personal computing every day. NOTES: Microsoft and MS-DOS are registered trademarks and Windows is a trademark of Microsoft Corp. CompuServe is a registered trademark of CompuServe Inc. Hercules is a registered trademark of Hercules Computer Technology All prices listed are U.S. suggested retail prices. ----- End forwarded message
1985.3	Take Newton, add cellular comms, add Digital apps...	IW::WARING	Simplicity sells	`Tue Jul 14 1992 17:14`	11
	I think that Windows NT will quickly take out the workstation vendors as we know them, and bridge desktop PCs to high powered servers with a common OS. However, I think the Apple Newton is probably more representative of "the next wave". Windows NT doesn't get you to consumer electronics comfortably, and that's where the "Interpersonal Digital Connection" market will be. Just imagine a worldwide implementation of Notes for Newton, Mail for Newton, TeamRoute for Newton etc without being limited to any one enterprise's network infrastructure... now that'd be a pretty large market. And i'd buy one. - Ian W.
1985.4		FHOPAS::JAMBE::MCMULLEN		`Tue Jul 14 1992 17:29`	2
	Re: .0 Small Nit - "Catch a Wave" Jan & Dean
1985.6		RANGER::JCAMPBELL		`Tue Jul 14 1992 17:57`	3
	Re: .4 Thanks for historical correction. Jon
1985.7	more from NT developer's conference	RANGER::JCAMPBELL		`Tue Jul 14 1992 17:58`	560
	From: TLE::AMARTIN "Alan H. Martin 14-Jul-1992 1257" 14-JUL-1992 12:56:06.86 To: JLC CC: Subj: 1 of 2 From: SR::MURPHY "Sara Murphy, DTN: 381-2052 12-Jul-1992 2234" 12-JUL-1992 22:36:36.37 To: @C_TEAM CC: Subj: NT Developers' Conf Q&A - C/C++ questions are at the end From: TLE::CONTI "Bob Conti 603 881 2086 Just DO It" 8-JUL-1992 07:17:10.74 To: SMURPHY,FOSTER,GOLLY::KNIGHT CC: Subj: NT Pro. Dev. Conf., Day One Q&A From: TLE::CONTI "Bob Conti 603 881 2086 Just DO It 08-Jul-1992 0713" 8-JUL-1992 07:16:50.02 To: @[CONTI.DIS]PCDEVO.DIS CC: Subj: NT Pro. Dev. Conf., Day One Q&A From: DECWRL::"76256.2277@CompuServe.COM" "Richard A. Wells" 7-JUL-1992 11:05:28.49 To: me-dec <wells@parens.zko.dec.com>, nancy-b <tle::beckley>, bob <tle::conti>, Dieter <4gl::heinzer>, kathleen <aimhi::bailey>, tom <tuner::bailey> CC: Subj: NT Pro. Dev. Conf., Day One Q&A Question and Answers in Main and Selected Breakout Sessions, Day One Microsoft Windows Professional Developer's Conference 6 July 1992, Moscone Center, San Francisco Reported by Richard A. Wells (TLE::WELLS) [For all of these talks the slides are in the proceedings which I will be bringing back with me. I have only paratranscribed the question and answer sessions from each of these talks.] In this issue: Win32 Base APIs Win32 GDI (Graphics Device Interface) Window Manager API (USER) SQL Server C++ Exception Handling Win32 Base APIs --------------- Q: [Dave Solomon, formerly of VMS development] I don't see any generalized lock management services? A: You're right, we don't have that level in the first version. Q: Can you have multiple views on a single file map? A: Yes, you can have multiple ones of different sizes, with different read/write access. Q: You mentioned both structured exception handling and status return codes. Can you use just one? Or did you consider building an API that only uses the exception mechanism? A: We thought about that, but it would be a nightmare. Q: Can the scheduler be replaced by third-parties for real-time applications? A: We aren't doing that yet, but if you are really interested, please talk to us or submit requirements to product management for version 2. Q: What does it mean to use threads and run on 3.1? A: The Win31s libraries will not crash on 3.1, but the calls that don't make sense will return error codes. So your app can be aware of the platform it is running on. Q: Some people have trouble deciding how much shared memory to allocate. Can that be done dynamically? A: Strictly speaking, no, but that doesn't stop you from creating multiple shared memory sections dynamically. Win32 GDI (Graphics Device Interface) ------------------------------------- Q: Do you actually copy all of the data between client and server components? A: Yes, into the shared buffer. Q: Do you see any perf issues (benefits lost) with the current batch of accelerator cards? A: We've tried to pick a set of calls/device driver requests that the cards can handle well. I think it will work well with these devices. Q: Have you tested client-server caching over a phone line. A: Remote calls to GDI is not supported in this version. Q: Does it work with 24-bit color? A: Yes. Q: Is there a demo here of this? A: I don't know. Q: Will the new GDI support multi-head, multiple-display cards? A: Yes, but not in the same way as the Macintosh. Only one device can have the desktop. So, if there is a device-driver that understands all of your cards, it can manage this. Q: Would you implement an X server as a client or a device driver? A: Client. Performance should be quite acceptable. Q: When [SGI's] OpenGL is integrated, where? A: Not as a separate subsystem, but as part of the GDI. [SGI is demonstrating OpenGL running under NT. One demo showed a window with a 3D representation of an undulating planar surface. It was very quick and smooth. If NT builds this in as a standard component, NT will probably make even more inroads into Unix workstations' (previous) domain.] Q: When we implemented our drawing with the PolyLine call we discovered certain degenerate cases. Will those types of cases also exist in Paths, and will you document those? A: You should talk to me directly with specifics. Q: Will the Win3.1 device driver that I have for my graphics accelerator card be obsolete for NT? A: Yes. You will need completely new drivers. Q: Are manufacturers working on those? A: I think so, but I don't know what amount of coverage we have. Q: [Some question about memory use.] A: One shared memory buffer per THREAD that communicates with the GDI server. But it is only about 8K/thread. Q: In constructing metafiles what are the implications of having complicated transforms? Will all details be taken care of? A: Yes, it should be. Q: Can I do that as I CREATE the metafile. [Complicated question about paths and transforms.] A: You'll have to read the path API documentation. Window Manager API (USER) ------------------------- Q: Is there any future plan to make Win32s pre-emptive? A: Yes, in fact. I'm not the qualified person to answer that, but I think the next versions of DOS and Windows will do this. Q: Does Win32s have Unicode support in it? A: I don't know. I won't answer that. Q: Do you plan to implement a StyleTextEdit control as the Mac has it? A: We've had a lot of requests for that. We make new features decisions based on ISV feedback. That one has been a high one, but I can't say for sure it will be in the next release because we haven't tabulated it. Q: If an application explicitly loads a DLL and the EXE crashes the DLL will be left in memory and perhaps in an indeterminate state, in Window 3.1. Will this happen in NT? A: No, the models are completely different. If a process goes away so will its DDLs. Q: [Something about pre-emptive input model on Win3.1] A: Win32s on Win3.1 will use the same model as is used today. Q: What should I do about the change from SetFocus to SetForegroundWindow? Reason is if you have an alternate input device and you need to configure it to be specific to the application that is currently using. Presumably you can use Set/GetForegroundWindow to find out about the application to modify the device? A: One thing to know about calling operations on other windows is that if you call USER there will be synchronization with the other process, because of the callback model. If you do this to a window whose thread is hung you may wait for a long time... Q: One of the big features two years was backing store. What is the state of that? A: A future release feature. We decided it wouldn't get done in time. Q: What about support for tablets, switching between relative and absolute mode. The situation is really bad today. We'd like Microsoft to define a standard interface. A: I've heard about that a lot. Talk to your development consultant. Q: We've done that. A: OK, I'll have to look into it. Q: In 16-bit Windows text controls limited to 64K. Has this gone away? A: Yes. Q: In preliminary versions, string copy functions are limited 64K. Is this still true? A: Printing holdover from 16-bit version. This is NOT still true. Q: What about support for multiple keyboards and mice? A: Not in this first release. If it is really important, get in touch with your ISV relations contact or talk to me directly. Q: Could you expound a bit on the message queues of modal vs. modeless dialog boxes? A: Yes. For one thing, we don't support system modal windows. Q: I develop applications for the public. Is it possible to develop an application that users can NOT get out of. A: Yes, but there are many things to consider. Not as easy as it was using a system modal window. However, you can trap all events. Q: I would assume that a modal dialog box only gets messages on its own thread. Is that true? A: Yes. Q: So it would only block that thread? A: Right. Q: Do the various string macros automatically cast themselves correctly for using Unicode? A: Yes. Q: What about string resources? A: You just need to call the right API. The resources are STORED as Unicode, you retrieve them in the form you want. Q: If an application is using Windows DDE messages directly, how is backwards compatibility going to work with shared memory? A: We've implemented a robust DDE mechanism that records ALL communication and ensures that all the right events get put in the right application's buffer. Q: If A is a good app, B is a bad app. B goes into disk I/O. User clicks around B. Nothing happens, user switches to A. Finally B wakes up. Does it pop to the front? A: No. It receives the message but it doesn't become the foreground window. Q: So it doesn't do a SetFocus? A: Yes, it will, but it won't become the FOREGROUND window. SQL Server ---------- Q: You mentioned that the ODS layer is fully compliant with SQL Server. I thought there were some hitches? Specifically "compute by". A: By making them integrated we are forcing ourselves to come to grips with this. We have to add them and we are adding them in one place: ODS. Q: When you copy SQLSERVER.EXE from OS/2 you don't need the associated DLLs? A: Yes, you need the ODS DLL and there is a server-side NETLIB that needs to be copied. This does not include the client-side, which you will need, too. (More DLLs.) Q: How about my current Win3.1 apps that talk to OS/2 1.x SQL Servers? A: Win 3.1 clients will run UNCHANGED against an NT SQL Server. In order to run a Windows NT 32-bit client you will need an updated [network] DLL. You can even run the OS/2 SQL Server in NT in an OS/2 subsystem. In any case you will need to load the appropriate DLLs [on the server, I think]. Q: Have you run any TPS benchmarks? A: We have run some, but not full TP1 benchmark. It is definitely faster than OS/2 and uses less CPU. Q: How does your implementation differ from Sybase on, for example, Mach. A: We are using NT threads to give us MP capabilities. For example, the Sybase implementation which requires extra work to take advantage of additional processors. We have single implementation which works fine on a uniprocessor but get multiprocessing advantages through NT threads automatically. Q: What do I get under Win32s on a DOS platform? A: I don't know. I think there will have to be a different version of the DLL under Win32s. Q: Which is faster: Sybase on a Unix 486 or SQL server on NT? A: I suspect we'll be faster because of architectural differences, but I'm not sure. Q: [pricing] A: Pricing will be microcomputer, not minicomputer priced. Q: Is SQL Server "throttlable"? A: We intend to supply parameters that control how many threads are allocated. Q: Is tempdb dynamic? A: Yes. Q: So it will contend with space for my procedures? A: No, it doesn't come out of the space specified by your memory parameter. Q: You seem to indicate TCP/IP will only be available through a bridge. Does this mean we won't get a TCP/IP NETLIB for NT? A: That is not strictly true. There are possibly server-side NETLIBs. Q: I'm specifically interested in connecting NT clients to Unix Sybase servers. A: I see. That will be in the Production version. Q: Do we automatically get these systems? A: Purchase through Internal Sales for $295. Q: Is Sybase developing DB-LIBs for NT servers? A: I assume you mean for TCP/IP? Gary Voff is the product manager for SQL Server. A (GV): Currently we share the DB-LIB development with Sybase. We do the development of the API for MS platforms, Sybase doing the compatible implementations for non-MS platforms. Q: When you mentioned released server on OS/2, which version do you mean? A: SQL Server 4.2 can be run on OS/2 2.0 right now, but it is not certified because we only just received copies of the network software. We are testing and it should be certified in a few weeks. Q: Do the SA enhancements allow the diagnosis of a deadlock, specifically which resource is being contended for? A: That's a good idea and the extensibility is there to do that. Q: Well, you have my vote. C++ Exception Handling ---------------------- Q: What is in C7.0? A: Nothing. Q: When will we see anything? A: Not at liberty to say specifics, but something next year. Q: What about under 3.1 or Win32s? A: No. Q: So there is nothing we can do? A: There is support for C-style value exceptions in the NT PDK with the 32-bit compiler. Q: Is it your intention to be COMPLETELY compatible to ANSI spec? A: Yes, but we will extend it compatibly to support resumably semantics. Q: How will you merge terminate vs. resume semantics? A: Under NT, in the C style, resumption is possible when the filter is being executed. Once you are in the accept clause objects have already been destroyed. I made a proposal to the ANSI committee in 1990 that is fully compatible. Termination exceptions ALWAYS terminate. Resumable exceptions may terminate OR resume. Q: Can you explain exception handling in MFC? A: They provide library code that provides some of the flavor of C++ exceptions. Once they have C++ compiler that truly supports exceptions, they will be able to recompile their macros to take advantage of this. Q: C++ handling is very similar to what Ada does... A: ... except type semantics, which is a BIG difference ... Q: You suggested that something like "out of memory" should be an error, not an exception, but the Ada and C++ exception handling designers think it SHOULD be an exception. A: I came from the Unix world and I know that it is a Unix "arrogance" is that out-of-memory is something that happens rarely. Under Windows and DOS with 64K segments that this happens all of the time. So it is really a case of programmer perception. Q: Is Microsoft planning on supporting templates? A: Absolutely! Q: When? A: Can't tell you, but it WILL happen for competetive reasons. Q: Is the C++ base class problem being looked at and does Microsoft have any interest in this? A: Yes, I submitted it to the ANSI committee years ago. Probably won't see ANSI C++ until 2010, but you'll see an implementation in Microsoft sooner. Q: Can we get copies of your proposals. A: I'll have to ask our legal team. Q: Will throw and catch be available to other languages? A: Yes, we disclosed the object model of our C++ code. Our intention is to do the same for our excpetion model. Q: [Bob Peterson, DEC SDT] How will this exception model affect other languages apart from C++? A: In the NT model, there is a language-handler attribute per frame (and user can provide one per function). By default this is a C language handler. The C++ compiler will generate C++ language handlers. NT itself doesn't care. It just walks the frames and asks the language handler about an exception through a particular interface. Today's language handler in the PDK is only for C. Q: DLLs raising typed exceptions causes problems but you didn't mention solutions. A: I'm not at liberty to do so yet. Most common situation is when an application has normal classes and exception classes. Virtual functions provide a very complicated callback scenario. The biggest issue is when the client code throws an exception the DLL doesn't know anything about it (unless it has a catch(...), which catches all types). The DLL can't mess this up. Caller might have a catcher higher up the call tree. The DLL and the EXE have index sets for the exceptions they are handling. The CFRONT implementation proposal uses mangled names of the types and search them until they find the one they need. And THIS is a little bit too expensive. We have defined an index scheme that is quite optimized, but I can't give you the details now. Distribution: me-dec >internet:wells@parens.zko.dec.com nancy-b >internet:beckley@tle.enet.dec.com bob >internet:conti@tle.enet.dec.com Dieter >internet:heinzer@4gl.enet.dec.com kathleen >internet:bailey@aimhi.enet.dec.com tom >internet:bailey@tuner.enet.dec.com % ====== Internet headers and postmarks (see DECWRL::GATEWAY.DOC) ====== % Received: by enet-gw.pa.dec.com; id AA17926; Tue, 7 Jul 92 08:02:45 -0700 % Received: by ihb.compuserve.com (5.65/5.910516)id AA02096; Tue, 7 Jul 92 11:02:38 -0400 % Date: 07 Jul 92 10:42:59 EDT % From: "Richard A. Wells" <76256.2277@CompuServe.COM> % To: me-dec <wells@parens.zko.dec.com>, nancy-b <tle::beckley>, bob <tle::conti>, Dieter <4gl::heinzer>, kathleen <aimhi::bailey>, tom <tuner::baile % Subject: NT Pro. Dev. Conf., Day One Q&A % Message-Id: <920707144258_76256.2277_EHC26-4@CompuServe.COM>
1985.8	...and even more from...	RANGER::JCAMPBELL		`Tue Jul 14 1992 18:00`	824
	From: TLE::AMARTIN "Alan H. Martin 14-Jul-1992 1257" 14-JUL-1992 12:56:27.03 To: JLC CC: Subj: 2 of 2 From: SR::MURPHY "Sara Murphy, DTN: 381-2052 12-Jul-1992 2247" 12-JUL-1992 22:50:11.86 To: @C_TEAM CC: Subj: NT Conference - Second day (includes the Alpha NT presentation) From: TLE::SURELY::will "Becky Will" 8-JUL-1992 12:20:32.61 To: tle::beckley, peznqt::welch, tle::purcell, tools::rice, clt::trogers, tle::youngs, tle::benoit, kazak::clinkenbeard, tle::ellenberger, tle::foster, tle::karam, banana::klein, gitdwn::denise, tle::smurphy, will CC: Subj: comments from Supnik/Benn at NT conf on Alpha/NT langs I've extracted appropriate comments 1st, then attached the whole trip segment from Richard. ... Q: Will DEC FORTRAN be ported to Alpha/NT? A [Bob Supnik/Benn Schreiber]: Yes. Q: What is the timeframe? A: I can't comment on timeframes. Q: I need VAX Pascal. Will you port that to Alpha/NT? A: We will consider it. It should be easy to do once we have the Alpha/NT backend working. We have some of the languages product managers here [I think he mean Cathie Richardson and Richard Kaufmann] and you should make your requirements known to them. We will change our plans as we see opportunities. Q: Will your other VMS languages be ported to NT, both for Alpha and the other NT implementations (Intel and MIPS)? A: We will look at this possibility based on opportunities, but because of the GEM technology we will probably do this. [I should be careful here: I don't think Supnik made any commitments for us. I think he was very careful in his answers, even if he was a bit optimistic on how easy it will be to get GEM moved around...] Return-Path: tle::conti Date: Wed, 8 Jul 92 10:39:29 -0400 From: tle::conti (Bob Conti 603 881 2086 Just DO It 08-Jul-1992 1033) To: will Subject: TLG mgmt team may enjoy this 1-of-N reports by Richard Wells who's at the Win32 Developer's conference... Supnik on Alpha-NT languages! From: DECWRL::"76256.2277@CompuServe.COM" "Richard A. Wells" 8-JUL-1992 10:14:56.11 To: me-dec <wells@parens.zko.dec.com>, bob <tle::conti>, Dieter <4gl::heinzer>, nancy-b <tle::beckley>, bruce <tle::foster>, kathleen <aimhi::bailey>, tom <tuner::bailey> CC: Subj: Question and Answers in Main and Selected Breakout Sessions, Day Two Microsoft Win32 Professional Developer's Conference 7 July 1992, Moscone Center, San Francisco Reported by Richard A. Wells (TLE::WELLS) [For all of these talks the slides are in the proceedings which I will be bringing back with me. I have only paratranscribed the question and answer sessions from each of these talks.] In this issue: Windows Kernel [empty] Windows Executive I/O Subsystems [empty] Networking Win32 SDK Writing Distributed Application with RPC Writing Multithreaded Applications Alpha Windows Kernel -------------- [Cutler overran his time by 15 minutes (isn't he always on schedule? :-), so there was no public Q&A.] Windows Executive ----------------- Q: [Edward Cheng, DEC] Is NT designed to support mission-critical, high-performance features: TP mgmt, logging, etc.? A: Yes. We did this. One thing we did in NTFS by making sure the design could be extended to support transaction mechanisms. Q: You have logging in the executive. Do you intend to support Open Journal mechanisms? A: Yes. We should talk later. Q: I'm very interested in doing Win32 UI calls and POSIX non-UI calls in the same process. A: The NT executive calls will not be POSIX compliant. The POSIX subsystem will be. Lots of problems: signal semantics, C run-time differences. Q: Does MS have intention to document executive API to allow other developers to build emulation subsystems. A: Not in V1. We want to retain the right to change this. Win32 API, however, will be supported. Q: Intend to do this in the future. A: Maybe. Talk to us. Q: Can a [something about not exporting a processes(?) security something-or-other.] A: Yes, through an anonymous LPC connection. Q: Can you run HPFS, NTFS and FAT simultaneously. A: Yes, obviously on different partitions. Also a CD-ROM file system. Q: What is going to happen in 4 years beyond 2GB address space. A: We think 32-bits will be adequate for 5-8 years, at which time the processors will support 64-bit addresses, at which time we will have to figure out how to migrate 32-bit apps to 64-bit. Q: Would it be good to put page files on physically separate volumes from user files? A: Yes. The less disk reading the better. If you can put page files on volumes that are less often used will improve your performance, as will having multiple paging volumes in heavily multiprocessing environments. Q: [Something about NT executive API.] A: None of the emulation subsystems uses all of the NT executive APIs, but the full API is available to all. Q: Are Run-time libraries sensitive to the different emulation subsystems. A: Yes, there are separate libraries. There are different call semantics. Q: Is there going to be an X Window System available for the POSIX subsystem? A: We are working with third-parties. Q: Can you query the granularity of thread quanta? A: Finest you can set is in the milliseconds. Q: On Intel platforms what support is there for building descriptor tables (LDTs and GDTs)? A: The NT executive API has calls that accepts LDTs. If we like it, we'll accept it, otherwise we'll return an error. This is not exported. Only people that really need to do this is the DOS subsystem. Q: Do you support running all sorts of DOS extenders under NT? A: In the DOS emulation mode there is DPMI 0.9 capability. We don't support loading just any DOS extender. Attend the breakout session on DOS emulation. I/O Subsystems -------------- [Speaker ran over, so there were no public questions.] Networking ---------- Q: How do we get a hold of the Winsock and streams specs? A: Winsock is on CompuServe and the Internet. Alistair Banks is our connectivity developer relations person. As for the streams spec, you need to talk to our internal relations folks. Q: [Question about POSIX sockets.] A: We might not have sockets in POSIX release one, but we are trying to. Q: [Question about access to Winsock from WOW.] A: In this release we have only the synchronous parts of Winsock. Async and mouse will be in the next release [I think he meant next PDK update]. Q: A: We do not have generalizable directory lookup service capabilities. Q: Will there be any mechanism for supporting SNA protocol stack. A: There is the SNA services product. Q: My question really is "will NT peers be able to communicate over SNA protocol stacks"? A: No. Q: Never?!? A: It could be done, but we don't have the resources to do all transports. Q: [Question about DLC.] A: DLC drivers are not in today's kit. They should be in the next PDK. They should also be in the SNA services beta, which should be available soon. Q: By using Windows NT do I get everything I need to set up a network? A: Yes. Q: When will we be able to use NFS to hook up NFS Unix system to NT systems? And what about FTP or TELNET servers for NT? A: We will not do this in version 1. There are third-parties working on this, but they don't want me to tell you who they are. Contact our developer relations, who have more information. Q: [SNA, mainframes] A: [Third-parties] Q: What is WOW? A: Windows on Windows environment. How you run Win16 apps on Windows NT. Q: Since there is now a global directory service, will it interoperate with DCE. A: We don't provide it, but a third-party could build it. Q: Could your client directory service access DCE global directories? Wouldn't you get it automatically since you have DCE naming support A: You'll have to ask [person doing RPC talk]. Q: What about the DCE DFS? A: No plans. Licensing costs don't fit our market. Win32 SDK --------- [Demo] All tools show up in a single program group (similar to the Win3.x versions). Contains tools and help files (cross-references into the API, full descriptions of example programs). Is going to build bitblt sample app. Brings up command line prompt. Goes to source directory. Uses new NMAKE to compile it. While it is compiling, it changes context and demonstrates that the CompuServe Information Manager to connect to CompuServe (actually dials up). New LINK produces warnings for unused libraries that are specified in LINK command. Uses CIM to go to the WINNT forum. Runs the program from the comand line. Loads a bitmap file. Selects a region, copies it to another area in the client area, sets parameters that demonstrate blitting (transforming) of bitmap. Starts up Windbg (derived from QCWin debugger) to show running app from debugger. Sets some breakpoints. Single steps. Restarts app, back to line 1 in debugger. Goes to third-party tools. Starts up Hamilton C Shell, which provides most C shell functions, ls, more, diff (colored!) in a command-line window. System hangs. "This is an opportunity for you to see Windows NT rebooting." Q: One thing I noticed is that some of us like looking at something other than black on white. This is a problem in WinHelp. A: I'll talk to the WinHelp devos. Q: Will CompuServe be free for people here? A: No, you will be charged for your connect time. Q: Do the C++ classes have support for new Win32 features? A: No, not in this first PDK. More information later from guy giving MFC talk. Q: When we update to C7, definition of time broke, breaking our application. We researched this and found it was supposed to be for ANSI compatibility, when apparently this doesn't even exist. There IS a POSIX standard of 1970 as the base. Will you use it? A: I don't know about this issue. I'll put you in touch with C folks. Q: Our product augments the resource compiler. Is there facility in NT for replacing components of the resource compiler? A: [Didn't understand relationship to question...] Q: When a program crashes, will GDI objects for that process be de-allocated? A: Yes. These resources are stored on the server side and they will be freed when the client dies. Q: Will second debugging machine need to be running NT? A: We are looking at doing this in Win32s for Win3.1, but we aren't sure. Q: Are you planning to come out with IDE? In what time frame? A: Not in this SDK. The languages group will do this sometime. They will be talking about this tomorrow. Q: Is new GDI in Win32s? A: Beziers and splines won't be. There is a talk tomorrow that goes into the details of Win32s. Q: Do you support WINDOWSX.H? A: Yes. Q: One of my problems is that the only video driver is VGA. Help? A: Only supports VGA and only some SuperVGA. In the near future this list will really expand. Q: If I were to load this today and still kept my current MSC 7.0, can I use it under NT to build 3.1 apps? A: Not today. We will be working in the coming months to do this. Our focus today is for Win32 apps. Q: Schedule for release of Win32s? A: Probably in next update, hopefully September, but schedule is not solid. Writing Distributed Application with RPC ---------------------------------------- Q: You mentioned VMS as a server? A: Supported by DEC. Shipped 1.0 starter kit (beta) about a month ago for both VMS and ULTRIX. Q: Mac client? A: Seems like a good idea, but it isn't on our development schedule. Q: If you start a server and then start app and app does RPC to abc() and in the middle of that some other client starts up and calls abc(), what happens? One thread, two? A: As long as you specify enough threads when declaring server enough threads will be started up. Q: Can you set it up so one thread handles them by queuing? A: If you only allow one thread it will sort of work, but the requests could time out. Q: Could you shed some light on plusses or minuses between using RPC vs. NetDDE? A: NetDDE is more interpretive. It works to applications that support DDE now. NetDDE won't perform as well but it would probably be more flexible, due to its interpretive nature. Q: What restrictions are there on the parameters, say there are imbedded pointers in a structure, like a linked list? A: You can have linked structures, as long as there no "aliased" pointers. The IDL expressions describe the structures. As long as there are not multiple pointers to the same thing (i.e. no cycles). Q: If you have a lib that has a lot of static data, how do you handle that? A: Write routines that expect the static data and those call server procs that take those as arguments. Sometimes you have to have wrappers around RPC stubs that turn things into constructs that RPC can handle. The jargon for this is "client agent" or "client clerk". Q: [Missed it.] A: Both sides of RPC use threading to get parallelism. Q: What is load of RPC call? A: Per message overhead is 16 bytes. Q: Is there any way to automatically get load balancing? A: Not yet. This would be the perfect user-written server. Q: How would you do this with C++? A: No problem. You'd have to slap an extern "C" around the export of the C header file. Q: When will Win3.1 have client and server? A: Right now there are no development plans for this currently. Q: What about Win32s? A: Right now there is nothing done, but it should be no problem. Q: [How do you do a Windows server?] A: Some experimental work we've done is a program with a hidden window that gets its messages through its WinProc. Q: In your example your server had to sit on this request loop. A: Under 3.1 this doesn't make any sense, as you imply. When we do have a mechanism to have a Windows even delivered this will make sense. Q: What facilities does the OS provide for continuation from crashed clients or servers? What cleanup will be done? De-allocation, etc. Are there exceptions that need to be handled? A: If you are trying to right a long-lifed server, that needs to be robust, etc. then you must be careful to catch exceptions and clean up appropriately. Q: When will there be OSF CDS and Kerberos components available? A: There is a problem with publicly releasing anything that is OSF-compliant, because they have not published royalty-free specifications. Only route is to license the source-code, which we don't want to do. Q: In your try/except block, what kinds of exceptions that come up on the server will be made known to the client? A: Yes, all exceptions on the server are reflected to the client. Q: [Missed the question.] A: LPC is an order of magnitude faster than RPC. Q: I'm interested in doing load-balancing, with devos using Win3.1 systems, with an NT compute-server with automatic failover to the local machine. Is RPC the right way to do this? A: It's the best thing I can think of for what you want to do. You'd have to write two servers: an availability server and a compile server. The compile server would indicate its availability to the availability server, and the clients would check there first, failing over to a local compile. Q: Data conversion: how are you chasing down the user-defined types? Where do the type definitions have to be for the MIDL compiler to see them? A: They have to be in the IDL file. Q: I ask because CASE tools generate .H files. A: IDL has #include statement [???] Q: Can you pass pointers to unknown datatypes? A: No. We have local joke: if you want to pass a void*, we'll copy your entire address space. But you can specify uninterpreted data by a size (basically a char[N]). Q: Do RPC calls use persistent or non-persistent connections? Can this be controlled? A: It uses connections that try to remain around as long as possible, but are taken down if needed, like if the server gets overloaded. Q: Can I fiddle with the packet after on the other sides of the stubs, for example if I want to do compression or encryption? A: No, goes against the philosophy. There are mechanisms in RPC for standard encryptions. Compression you would have to handle at the argument level. Q: What is the relationship on connections? Machine to machine or application to application? A: App process to app process. Q: When is a server judged as saturation and when do connection start being closed? A: When a server attempts to open connections and can't. We haven't settled on a policy for what we close, although we try to go for the oldest, least used. Q: If I have a Windows client talking to an NT server, how is security done? A: Currently there is password exchange only under named pipes. So, this would have come during LAN Manager login. Q: Say there are 15 of your phone book servers [sample code in slides], does the client have any way of "browsing" them? A: We are looking at this. There may be something we can get into the September release. Q: In the network encryption routines, do you support complex data arrays? A: Encryption handles anything, independent of the complexity of the data types. Q: Is the interface for local RPC? How do you identify that you want to do local calls? A: You can encode it in the protocol sequence type. Any server that uses UseAllProtocolTypes will automatically pick up local transport requests. Writing Multithreaded Applications ---------------------------------- Q: Can mutexes and semaphores be acquired recursively? A: I think mutexes can. I'm not sure about semaphores, but I think not. Q: [???] A: Within a given process all threads are co-equal, as opposed to OS/2 where first thread was parent, and if it dies all others go away. Q: Perf. data of thread switch overhead vs. context-switch overhead? A: I don't know, I'm from the language group, not the kernel group. Q: Does or will there be any C++ support for threads or synchronization objects? A: I'm not in on the C++ stuff. I do know that the latest changes we've added to the C RTL is a function-handler per thread. I don't think this is the PDK you got. You'll have to ask the C++ folks. Q: NT critical sections aren't like OS/2 1.x ones? A: No, under OS/2 a critical section stopped all threads in that process. Under NT it is a synchronization data object. Q: So it is data, not a section of code. A: Correct. Q: [???] A: For shared memory you have a memory mapped file that has no filename. When one process writes to a block it will appear immediately in the view on the file for the other process. Q: Could I build a set of DLLs that each spawn sets of threads? A: A DLL is just a block of code and data, so, yes, it sounds reasonable. Messages would need to be sent to the thread so that it knows it is associated with that DLL. Q: Is there a SendThreadMessage? A: No, but a thread could put up an invisible window, poll the Windows event queue and other threads could use Windows' SendMessage to communicate with it. Q: I'm curious about how cheap threads REALLY are. How many threads a uniprocessor is likely to be able to support? A: Well, hundreds, at least, but of course it will depend on how much physical memory you have and how fast your processor is. Q: A: If you are talking about re-building a Win3.1 under Win32 you will have conditional code. If you use Win32s you will need to trap the error message from thread creation (which you will get on Win3.1) and behave differently in that case. Q: Does the shared memory mechanism work over the network, perhaps through NFS mechanisms? A: I don't know. You'll have to talk to NT or networking guys. Q: [???] A: You could have a thread wait on an event signaled by another thread or on one from an I/O event and wait for any instead of wait for all. Q: Does NT provide tools for monitoring the execution status of threads within a process. A: There is an app in the PDK called performance monitor. I don't know how much detail it provides. Q: If a thread has possession of a critical section and that thread terminates, will the critical section be released? A: I don't know. That won't be true of a mutex, where the next thread attempting to acquire it will get an error that the mutex has been abandoned. Q: Is there any intention to put the POSIX pthreads interface on top of NT threads? A: I don't know. Alpha ----- [I didn't have room to use my notebook (it was an SRO crowd, apparently the most well-attended vendor presentation at the conference (!)), so I'll just record some of the Q&A from memory.] General Comments: The presentation was well-received. Supnik and Schreiber gave back-to-back presentations on the Alpha architecture and the Alpha program in general, and then on the NT port in particular. Key points: - Alpha PC will be made of STANDARD PC COMPONENTS. This claim is real. Supnik even showed a proto board. The only hitch here is that there is a new internal bus called PCI, which I think stood for Processor Connect Interface. We are promoting this as a standard with Compaq, IBM and others, which is probably sufficient to legitimize it as "standard". Recently there has been a lot of activity in the high-end PC makers providing video boards that are in a very fast "processor-direct" slot, rather than on the EISA/ISA expansion bus (which is a relatively slow bus). The PCI standard describes a very-high-speed bus with slots for high-performance options like video and SCSI controllers, as well as bridges to EISA/ISA buses. The Alpha PC will have a PCI containing the video and a bridge to a six- or eight-slot EISA bus that will accept any existing PC expansion boards. The NT design will allow drivers written for these devices for NT on Intel systems simply to be re-compiled on Alpha/NT. All other components in the system are completely "low-tech" off-the-shelf PC parts. They said this machine would be THE performance leader in PCs and would be competitively-priced with Intel systems. - The Alpha bits [:-)] for NT will be DISTRIBUTED ON MICROSOFT'S SINGLE, INTEGRATED Windows NT V1.0 CD-ROM. - First boot of Alpha/NT should be this month. Q: Will DEC FORTRAN be ported to Alpha/NT? A [Bob Supnik/Benn Schreiber]: Yes. Q: What is the timeframe? A: I can't comment on timeframes. Q: I need VAX Pascal. Will you port that to Alpha/NT? A: We will consider it. It should be easy to do once we have the Alpha/NT backend working. We have some of the languages product managers here [I think he mean Cathie Richardson and Richard Kaufmann] and you should make your requirements known to them. We will change our plans as we see opportunities. Q: Will your other VMS languages be ported to NT, both for Alpha and the other NT implementations (Intel and MIPS)? A: We will look at this possibility based on opportunities, but because of the GEM technology we will probably do this. [I should be careful here: I don't think Supnik made any commitments for us. I think he was very careful in his answers, even if he was a bit optimistic on how easy it will be to get GEM moved around...] Q: You must have some sense of performance compared to a 486. What can you tell us? A: Well, it depends on your application, your instruction mix. The 486 has fairly weak floating point and Alpha has very strong floating point. Not that you should compare systems this way, but if you want to talk about SPECmarks, it is probably about 5 times as fast. Q: Good. [Much laughter and applause.] Distribution: me-dec >internet:wells@parens.zko.dec.com bob >internet:conti@tle.enet.dec.com Dieter >internet:heinzer@4gl.enet.dec.com nancy-b >internet:beckley@tle.enet.dec.com bruce >internet:foster@tle.enet.dec.com kathleen >internet:bailey@aimhi.enet.dec.com tom >internet:bailey@tuner.enet.dec.com % ====== Internet headers and postmarks (see DECWRL::GATEWAY.DOC) ====== % Received: by enet-gw.pa.dec.com; id AA03238; Wed, 8 Jul 92 07:12:45 -0700 % Received: by ihb.compuserve.com (5.65/5.910516)id AA02138; Wed, 8 Jul 92 10:12:40 -0400 % Date: 08 Jul 92 10:05:06 EDT % From: "Richard A. Wells" <76256.2277@CompuServe.COM> % To: me-dec <wells@parens.zko.dec.com>, bob <tle::conti>, Dieter <4gl::heinzer>, nancy-b <tle::beckley>, bruce <tle::foster>, kathleen <aimhi::bailey>, tom <tuner::baile % Subject: % Message-Id: <920708140506_76256.2277_EHC55-2@CompuServe.COM>
1985.9	I see two different things here	LGP30::FLEISCHER	without vision the people perish (381-0899 ZKO3-2/T63)	`Tue Jul 14 1992 19:17`	18
	re Note 1985.0 by RANGER::JCAMPBELL: > 3. WNT boasts compatibility with Windows 3.x and MS-DOS applications. Binary compatibility is true only for WNT on the Intel architecture. This is why I wonder whether WNT on Alpha is that big a deal. It will not run off-the-shelf software built for the Intel mass-market. Even if it's just a matter of re-compilation, experience shows that the mass of software will not be available for a machine that isn't binary compatible. WNT may indeed turn out to be the best OS for the Alpha workstation, but does it really "catch the wave" or does it merely make a ripple? Bob
1985.10		BHAJEE::JAERVINEN	Bitte ein Bit? Bitte 64 Bit!!	`Tue Jul 14 1992 21:08`	12
	re .9: Maybe we should have ANDF for NT. And I there might be Intel emulation for AlphaNT. Not an elegant solution, but at least it would allow to run Intel binaries with still reasonable speed. I cretainly agree with .0 that this is our great (last?) chance - and we have an advantage, DEC is full of VMS specialists, whose learning curve for WindowsNT should fast...
1985.11	A Cutler inside joke ??	HOTWTR::GILLESPE		`Tue Jul 14 1992 23:12`	8
	The latest rumor to be making the rounds at Microsoft: From Arthur C. Clark's "Space Odessey 2001" HAL + 1 = IBM and, now from Dave Cutler VMS + 1 = ??? (The answer is left to the student as an exercise).
1985.12	supposedly true	ITHIL::CHAD		`Wed Jul 15 1992 11:13`	7
	re :-.1 This was circulating on the usenet (and inside DEC a month or two ago). Someone (@DEC) supposedly called Cutler and asked if it was true, and was told "What took you so long?" Chad
1985.13		REGENT::POWERS		`Wed Jul 15 1992 12:45`	9
	> <<< Note 1985.4 by FHOPAS::JAMBE::MCMULLEN >>> > >Re: .0 Small Nit - "Catch a Wave" Jan & Dean Nit reversal: It WAS the Beach Boys who first did "Catch a Wave." It was a surfing tune. The Jan & Dean version had rewritten lyrics as a SKATEBOARD version (new at the time, mid-60s) about "sidewalk surfing." We now return to your regularly scheduled rathole.
1985.14	I think Intel emulation is in every NT system	BROKE::HIGGS	SQL is a camel in disguise	`Wed Jul 15 1992 15:18`	68
	<<< Note 1985.9 by LGP30::FLEISCHER "without vision the people perish (381-0899 ZKO3-2/T63)" >>> -< I see two different things here >- re Note 1985.0 by RANGER::JCAMPBELL: > 3. WNT boasts compatibility with Windows 3.x and MS-DOS applications. Binary compatibility is true only for WNT on the Intel architecture. This is why I wonder whether WNT on Alpha is that big a deal. It will not run off-the-shelf software built for the Intel mass-market. Even if it's just a matter of re-compilation, experience shows that the mass of software will not be available for a machine that isn't binary compatible. WNT may indeed turn out to be the best OS for the Alpha workstation, but does it really "catch the wave" or does it merely make a ripple? Bob ============================================================================== I was at the NT conference. I don't have the handouts and notes handy to refer to, but the very strong impression I had was that there would be Intel emulation on non-Intel NT platforms. I had the impression that it would in fact be required as part of the licensing agreement. I believe that the MIPS R4000-based NT that was running in the hands-on demo area already had it. I also seem to remember that Bob Supnik and/or Benn Schrieber said something about their using Insignia Solutions(?) emulation software on NT/Alpha. Two messages that I took from the conference (and scarcely the only ones) were: 1) Microsoft made a strong point on day 1 to say that part of their licensing requirements were that every vendor would have to guarantee that NT would be standard NT on every platform. I take it that they have learned from the UNIX fragmentation fiasco that has been so instrumental in preventing UNIX from moving into so many of the markets that NT is aiming for. I think that they indeed have the right approach. 2) Microsoft's approach was that NT was of preeminent importance, over and above what hardware platform it ran on. (Naturally, for a software company!) The Intel emulation on non-Intel NT platforms is precisely to allow existing Windows applications to be quickly available on those platforms, without the hardware vendor having to convince every third party vendor to spend the money to test their products and market them for every platform. Without such existing 'shrink-wrapped' applications, it's clear that the hardware platform's appeal for potential NT customers would be limited. I am concerned that Digital's approach is to treat NT as merely another O/S (and one deemphasized wrt our own proprietary O/Ss) with which to push Alpha hardware -- and low-end Alpha hardware at that). While the goal of selling Alpha hardware is laudable, I think that we have it backwards; NT is the important thing, and we should be setting aggressive goals to port as many of Digital's software products to generic NT as possible. Not moving our software to NT, limiting the number of software products being moved to NT, or moving to NT Alpha and no other NT platforms are not roads to success. We are already seen as a proprietary vendor (OpenVMS renaming notwithstanding), and this would strengthen that image. Not to mention limit our access to volume markets, which surely we must move towards? This conference convinced me that NT will be a large (even dominant) part of the future of computing. I hope the powers that be in Digital are doing the right things so we don't miss this 'wave' like so many we have missed before. I really do want Digital to succeed here... Bryan
1985.15	the Insignia emulation I've seen isn't good enough	LGP30::FLEISCHER	without vision the people perish (381-0899 ZKO3-2/T63)	`Wed Jul 15 1992 17:22`	26
	re Note 1985.14 by BROKE::HIGGS: > -< I think Intel emulation is in every NT system >- Software emulation is typically quite a bit less efficient than execution on the native architecture, i.e., for a given level of technology, the native processor should always beat an emulation by a sizable factor. Yes, native Alpha will be significantly faster than the best "native" Intel processors available at the same time, but if for a given piece of software the Intel isn't emulating, and the Alpha is emulating, the Intel will outperform. > Without such existing > 'shrink-wrapped' applications, it's clear that the hardware platform's appeal > for potential NT customers would be limited. Not only is the existence of off-the-shelf software on day 1 important to the customer, but of almost equal importance is the anticipation of a stream of new, full-performance software in the future. I don't think emulation is good enough to give this assurance, especially in the face of certain competition from systems that do not have to do emulation. Bob
1985.16	rathole redirection	LGP30::FLEISCHER	without vision the people perish (381-0899 ZKO3-2/T63)	`Wed Jul 15 1992 19:06`	10
	re Note 1985.14 by BROKE::HIGGS: > -< I think Intel emulation is in every NT system >- This is really a rathole in the DIGITAL conference. I refer the interested reader to the DECWET::WINDOWS-NT conference, in particular topics 144 and 147. Bob
1985.17		ADSERV::PW::WINALSKI	Careful with that VAX, Eugene	`Thu Jul 16 1992 21:40`	22
	RE: .9 NT will have an Intel emulator on MIPS and Alpha. It's important to note two things about this: 1) Alpha is so fast that, even emulated, Intel software running on Alpha will outperform the same app on a native Intel system. 2) The emulator does not emulate calls to OS or Windows. Those are done by thin jackets that immediately switch to running in native Alpha code. Most Windows applications are known to spend the majority of their time in Windows rather than in application code. For such applications, the difference in speed between an emulated vs. native version of the app will be negligible. RE: catching the NT wave It certainly does represent an opportunity for us. I know I'm doing all I can to make sure we capitalize on it. --PSW
1985.18	P5 vs. Alpha	MR4DEC::DIAZ	Octavio, SME International	`Fri Jul 17 1992 02:00`	9
	Re: <<< Note 1985.17 by ADSERV::PW::WINALSKI "Careful with that VAX, Eugene" >>> >1) Alpha is so fast that, even emulated, Intel software running on > Alpha will outperform the same app on a native Intel system. Intel's P5 chip (a.k.a. 586) is said to come at 100 MIPS. I doubt that a DOS emulation under Alpha will come close to native NT on a P5. /OLD
1985.19	No OS/2 for RISC; Alpha Advantage	LARVAE::RILEY		`Fri Jul 17 1992 13:14`	25
	re: <<< Note 1985.17 by ADSERV::PW::WINALSKI >>> } }NT will have an Intel emulator on MIPS and Alpha. It's important to }note two things about this: } }1) Alpha is so fast that, even emulated, Intel software running on } Alpha will outperform the same app on a native Intel system. } 1. The NT Emulator extends only to Windows/DOS and not to OS/2. The OS/2 sub-system will not be available on RISC. 2. Even on Intel based hardware there is some emulation work carried out ... such as traps ... there is no need to have the Instruction Execution Unit which does Instruction emulation. 3. Intel (at the SFO conference) presented the P5 as a 100 MIPS processor and so I suggest it is not safe to assume that Alpha will still have such a dramatic performance advantage over the Intel base for emulated software Alpha will need (as I am sure will) win primarily on Native applications and other performance advantages. - Steve.
1985.20	wait a minute	WRKSYS::BHANDARKAR	Good enough is not good enough	`Fri Jul 17 1992 14:39`	9
	RE: <<< Note 1985.17 by ADSERV::PW::WINALSKI "Careful with that VAX, Eugene" >>> >1) Alpha is so fast that, even emulated, Intel software running on > Alpha will outperform the same app on a native Intel system. Emulation will be faster than some Intel systems (25 MHz 386?), but not faster than the high end 486 or 586 native system. Dileep
1985.21	P5 is still vapor	COOKIE::BERENSON	Lex mala, lex nulla	`Fri Jul 17 1992 17:37`	3
	There are also rumors that Intel engineers are having trouble even approaching the performance that Intel marketeers are telling people P5 will have.
1985.22	Sanity Check	IW::WARING	Simplicity sells	`Fri Jul 17 1992 18:07`	11
	Sheesh! While many of you are drooling over this leadership processor technology between yourselves, there are a fair few customers with some magic words stamped on their foreheads: "What's in it for me". You won't catch any wave if you don't answer that one first, IMHO. - Ian W.
1985.23	P5	WRKSYS::BHANDARKAR	Good enough is not good enough	`Fri Jul 17 1992 19:28`	49
	Article: 32091 Path: ryn.mro4.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!caen!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!mash From: mash@mips.com (John Mashey) Newsgroups: comp.arch Subject: Re: What's in a name? Date: 16 Jul 1992 22:31:04 GMT Organization: MIPS Computer Systems, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <l6bu58INN4d1@spim.mips.com> References: <1992Jul10.135128.8796@crd.ge.com> <40001@ogicse.ogi.edu> <1992Jul16.005016.25778@microsoft.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: winchester.mips.com In article <1992Jul16.005016.25778@microsoft.com> craigdo@microsoft.com (Craig Dowell) writes: >There'll be a 686 all right. It may look like the x86 architecture from the >outside, but on the inside I'll bet that it'll be built so that it outperforms >any competetive product. Well, maybe; on the other hand, the 586 is rapidly running into reality; - the Intel charts last Fall show it 4-5 months behind the R4000, and at 70 SPECint. For this to be true, it means 586 production systems must be shipping no later than a few weeks from now, as SGI started shipping R4000s in Crimsons no later than the beginning of March. First, they were going to to announce very soon, and be able to speak at Hot Chips. They dropped out of Hot Chips. Second, they're supposed to talk at Microprocessor Forum ... but that's getting iffy, too ... but they'll be announcing at COMDEX... Well, maybe.... Consider that they announced 50Mhz 486 around June 91, and it was 6 months before buyable systems appeared, and that was a small chip, not a monster like the 586, in BiCMOS, which doesn't shrink like CMOS, and Intel doesn't generally do, using a die 40% bigger than an R4000.... Maybe the 686 will be better .... however, although what competitors say about each other should always be taken with a grain of salt, a lot of what Intel tells people about chip futures, how RISC-vs-CISC doesn't matter when you have lots of transistors, etc, is BOGUS, and it's bogus in a way that anybody who designs chips knows perfectly well, and in fact, as is perfectly laid out in Mead & Conway from 10 years back, Chapter 1.... which just about any undergraduate EE would have studied. -- -john mashey DISCLAIMER: <generic disclaimer, I speak for me only, etc> UUCP: mash@mips.com [soon to be mash@sgi.com, but not quite moved yet]. DDD: 408-524-7015, or 524-8253 USPS: (soon) Silicon Graphics, 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd, Mountain View, CA 94043
1985.24	The symbolism of "Catch a Wave"	RANGER::JCAMPBELL		`Tue Jul 21 1992 19:56`	35
	The following is an attempt at a transcription of "Catch A Wave" by the Beach Boys. I realized, when I replayed it, that it was astoundingly relevant to the computer industry today. See if you see the same symbolism I do. Catch A Wave by Brian Wilson Catch a wave and you're sitting on top of the world. Don't be afraid to try the greatest sport around. (Catch a wave, catch a wave) Those who don't just have to put it down. You paddle out, turn around, and race in, baby. That's all there is to the cosine craze. <---is this right? Funny! You gotta catch a wave and you're sitting on top of the world. Not just a fad 'cause it's been going on so long (catch a wave, catch a wave) They said it wouldn't last too long. They'll eat their words with a fork and spoon and watch 'em They'll hit the road and all be surfing soon And when they catch a wave they'll be sitting on top of the world Catch a wave and you're sitting on top of the world. So take a lesson from a top notch surfer boy. (catch a wave, catch a wave) But don't you treat it like a toy. Just get away from the shady turf, and baby, go get some rays on the sunny surf, and when you catch a wave you'll be sitting on top of the world. Catch a wave and you're sitting on top of the world. Catch a wave and you're sitting on top of the world.
1985.25		TOMK::KRUPINSKI	Repeal the 16th Amendment!	`Tue Jul 21 1992 21:00`	5
	> That's all there is to the cosine craze. <---is this right? Funny! No, it isn't. It's coastline... Tom_K
1985.26	The relevance of this note	RANGER::JCAMPBELL		`Tue Jul 21 1992 21:12`	76
	You might ask: why on earth have I started this note in the Digital notesfile? The answer: I think in order for this Corporation, which has some of the best hardware and software engineers in the world working for it, to become profitable again, we need to figure out how we can change the way we respond to new innovation in the computer industry. When IBM introduced the PC years ago, and Apple introduced the MAC, we talked about them as "toys". For many engineers here, they are still toys. Some of us have one at home, and it does our checkbook balances and our spreadsheets. But they are not important in our lives. We work on VAXstations, or RISC UNIX workstations, using a "real" operating system. But behind our backs, the major corporations got a different message when PCs began to be cheap and fast. Two things happened: 1. A little company called Novell started connecting them in PC networks - Netware - which we referred to jokingly as "weeny-net". 2. Little companies such as Borland and Lotus started writing high-quality software for these little toys, and sold it for next to nothing ($100-$500), because millions of customers times next-to-nothing equals a great deal of money. (Many of the ideas for this software came from Digital, but we didn't choose to make it run on the Intel platform. Lotus Notes and CCMAIL are good examples.) Today, over 70% of the "desktop devices" on people's desks are PCs, and some 10% are MACs. There have been 100 million PCs sold, or about 100 times as large as the total VMS base. The corporate computer buyers got the message we missed: they could start putting together a desktop computer net that would eventually be the lifeblood of their company. Insurance companies and banks have begun the transition from their mainframes to running their business on Netware. (This is no joke. One of the largest insurance companies in the US does their stock portfolio trading on 386SX machines running to a Compaq Superpro server running Netware). With the advent of NT (which has a built-in Network Operating System called LANManager), and the high-end Intel chips, it is clear that Microsoft and Novell will continue to dominate the PC and PC/Server market. More and more companies will move their applications to the PC/file server environment, displacing mainframes, midis, and minis forever (except maybe as file servers, but even that is questionable considering that an Intel 100 MIP box would probably run $10,000 with more memory and disk than a mainframe comes with today...). Instead of buying from a salesperson, an MIS manager will buy by phone from Egghead Software or have the software pre-loaded when the PCs are purchased from Gateway. The existence of a direct sales force may be superfluous. The software that runs on the PCs is self-instructing, and the manuals that I have seen are excellent, far superior to most Digital documentation. There is a grand competition for management software, voice software, scan/image software, FAX software, database software, drawing/painting software, word processing and publishing software, tax preparation software, stock portfolio software. Each new entry is far better, and usually cheaper, than its predecessors. My question is: how can Digital meet this challenge and thrive as a company? What would it be like to have Digital competing against Gateway? What would it be like to have Digital software, in flashy shrink-wrap boxes, on the shelves at Egghead Software? What would it take to get us there? The Beach Boys were really computer industry prophets. There are waves of technology changes. If you catch one, you can be "sitting on top of the world" - until the next wave. Digital made some of the first waves - the "affordable" computer (by 1960's standards), timesharing, and workstations. We didn't catch the last wave. Will we catch the next one? Regards Jon
1985.27		IOSG::WDAVIES	There can only be one ALL-IN-1 Mail	`Wed Jul 22 1992 09:00`	21
	Excellent Polemic...! Next question, is, how true is it! 100 Million PCs vs Million VAXen (or is it VT100s connected to VAXen) Remember you connect a fair few users to each VAXen - and each one can run MULTIPLE sessions using a LAN - on the PCs I tried, I couldn't even read mail at the same time as compiling Quick-C. Yet nevertheless, the message is there. We are probably TOO late to beat MicroSoft or Lotus on PCs under MS-Windows, but NT is a different ball-game - and as networks appears to be analysts falvour of the decade, why shouldn't Digital, having the largest private peer-peer network in the world, not dominate the distributd computing business ? Winton p.s. If someone coughs up a 386 PC for me to use alongside my old VAX2000 W/S I'll give it a go...
1985.28	where do we go from here?	RANGER::JCAMPBELL		`Wed Jul 22 1992 14:51`	56
	re: .27 Hi, Winton If you find a 386, try running PATHWORKS on a VAX somewhere and run eXcursion on your 386. It out-performs VS3100s running Windows. re: Catch a Wave: correction: the line with the question mark should be: "That's all there is to the coastline craze". I didn't think Brian Wilson was a mathemetician... Now, for more serious matters: how are we to catch the wave? I agree with Winton, we should be in a position to be in the lead of peer-to-peer networking, but Novell ate most of our lunch a few years ago with Netware, and Microsoft is about to eat the rest (along with Novell's), by realizing the potential and popularity of the Intel platform for doing real computing. While were thinking of PCs as toys, Microsoft, Novell, and several thousand other small firms saw the opportunity to write real software for them. To make the change to profitability, I think we need to bring ourselves into 1992: 1. Get a PC (or MAC, or both) on everyone's desk, and turn the VAXes into file servers. That will bring us to the point that most U.S. Corporations are at. The PCs should be running Windows 3.1 or evalutation copies of NT, the MACs should be running MAC-OS V7, which has peer-to-peer file sharing. 2. Get everyone to think in terms of real market share for our hardware and software: millions of copies, at a few hundred dollars (maximum) per copy. 3. Port those products for which we have a technology advantage to NT AS THEIR HIGHEST PRIORITY. Sell them at Egghead in flashy packages, in Computer Shopper, and via third-party vendors. A direct sales force is an anachronism for this business. (The sales force is useful for the very large, complex contracts with the largest corporations.) 4. Port our customer base to NT when and where it makes sense. Many of our classical VMS customers have been shifting their use of their VAXen to PATHWORKS file servers, shifting the real computing down onto the desktop. Those customers who have moved most or all of their applications to PCs can shift to NT (on Alpha or whatever architecture they want) very easily. VMS presents few real advantages over NT for most applications. Continue to support VMS on the VAX architecture and on alpha, for those customers who cannot easily port their software. Does this make sense? Thanks Jon Campbell
1985.29		IOSG::WDAVIES	There can only be one ALL-IN-1 Mail	`Wed Jul 22 1992 15:17`	13
	I tell you what really annoys me (politely!) is that the grunts can sit here and could be in a position to make the decisions, yet there are HIGH-LEVEL managements who are spending months (literally) trying to make up their minds what to do. I personally would have thought it should be quite easy to decide on a strategy, and then do it. The trouble seems to be that the ones in power just can't - either no vision or no knowledge. Does anyone disagree with -.1 for example ? If not then make him the CEO. Winton
1985.30		PLAYER::BROWNL	I've no time for patience	`Wed Jul 22 1992 15:33`	12
	For my money .28 is pretty near spot on. Some of us here have been begging for PCs for months, and months. Only this week, we had some more brand new VAXStations arrive... Almost without exception, these will be virtual terminals, no-one gets a 'real' Station. I promise you Winton, take a good long look at a 386, with PATHWORKS, eXcursion, etc. then take a good long look at the software these 'toys' run, especially development environments, object-orientated everything, and then having asked yourself where the VAXStation fits in, you'll have more than enough food for thought. Laurie.
1985.31		STOHUB::STLGBI::PARASITE	Another Casualty of Applied Metaphysics	`Wed Jul 22 1992 15:37`	17
	It is quite easy to "decide" what to do when your decision doesn't mean anything (like in a notefile) but when you are really deiding the fate of 120,000+ individuals and the future value of investments for thousands of others itis not so easy. Alternatives must be carefully analyzed, consequenses planned for data checked and rechecked and then, in the middle of the night you, who are being depended on by the multitudes to be brilliant, must make a final decision with not much more to go on than your gut. For example, why are elections polls so often wrong? Because people know that the election isn't being held "today" and their answer means nothing. or Why are the decisions of the Supreme Court proving more middle of the road than the condservative makup of the court lead analysts to predict? Simple the decisions being made by O'ConnerSouter and Thomas now count for far more than they ever did before.
1985.32		GIAMEM::LEFEBVRE	Personal Computer Group	`Wed Jul 22 1992 16:20`	43
	<<< Note 1985.28 by RANGER::JCAMPBELL >>> > If you find a 386, try running PATHWORKS on a VAX somewhere and run > eXcursion on your 386. It out-performs VS3100s running Windows. I've got this configuration in my office and Jon is absolutely on the mark. > To make the change to profitability, I think we need to bring > ourselves into 1992: I work for Jim Liu in the Personal Computer Group and we're very busy developing products that support your proposal. > 1. Get a PC (or MAC, or both) on everyone's desk, and turn the VAXes > into file servers. That will bring us to the point that most U.S. > Corporations are at. The PCs should be running Windows 3.1 or > evalutation copies of NT, the MACs should be running MAC-OS V7, which has > peer-to-peer file sharing. Most, if not all of PC Engineering is configured with PCs attached to a VAX-based file serving network running Pathworks. > 2. Get everyone to think in terms of real market share for our > hardware and software: millions of copies, at a few hundred dollars (maximum) per copy. We operate by what we call the "commodity business model" and are developing our product plans based on high volumes (ie, hundreds of thousands of PCs over the life of the product. As an example, at a recent product meeting, we shot down shipping a certain label that costs about 35 cents as we couldn't justify the cost over the life of the product. > Does this make sense? To PCG it does. Mark.
1985.33	My message to Bob Palmer and David Stone	RANGER::JCAMPBELL		`Wed Jul 22 1992 19:55`	64
	Dear David, Below is a copy of a note that I just sent to Bob Palmer. I read in a Wall St. Journal article that you and he will be charting a strategy to bring our company back to financial health, so I thought I would share my insights - which I believe are from a unique perspective in the company - with you as well. It is going to be a great challenge and adventure, and for the sake of this Corporation and its outstanding workforce I wish you the best. I will be doing my part in PCSG to meet the challenge. Thanks Jon Campbell PATHWORKS for OpenVMS-Alpha Tech lead Dear Bob, You don't know me - I'm the lead engineer porting PATHWORKS to run on Alpha - but I wanted to congratulate you on your elevation to CEO, and to provide you with what I think is a unique perspective on what Digital can do to become profitable again. I'm in a unique position here in PCSG: I work with high-end PCs, and write software for VAX (and now Alpha) to allow PCs to connect to them as file servers. I see what our largest customers have (which is a PC on every desktop) and what they need (good, fast file servers, top-notch software running on the PCs that utilize their interconnection in a seamless manner). Below is a note which I put into the DIGITAL notesfile, on node HUMANE, which talks about what I believe to be the next revolutionary phase of software and operating systems, and how it might affect our Corporation. In short, I see the computer industry technological advances as a series of waves. In the past, we caught or even created those waves - low-cost modules, minicomputers, time-sharing. But the last two - the advent of the PC and the networking operating systems connecting them - we missed, perhaps because we didn't see them coming. I see at least one wave coming: Windows-NT from Microsoft. I believe that, along with the innovations, price reduction, and speed-up of Intel & Digital hardware, and the proliferation of PC software, that this wave will dramatically change the course of computer usage. Many of the Fortune-1000 companies are now running, or contemplating running, their entire businesses on PC networks. Windows-NT is a real, virtual-memory operating system that has many or most of the features of VMS and UNIX. It runs all MS-DOS and Windows applications already in place. This makes it the vehicle by which the traditional mainframes and mid-range computers will be displaced by file servers, with Windows-NT running on the desktops (where necessary for virtual memory applications) and Windows-NT running on a high-end Intel or Digital file server. The challenge, I think, is for us to find the way to catch this wave this time, and to catch the potential waves on the horizon (e.g., Newton from Apple), thrive, and take the lead again where we can. Thanks for your time Jon Campbell (attached was a copy of note 1985.0)
1985.34		SYSTEM::COCKBURN	Craig Cockburn	`Wed Jul 22 1992 20:27`	26
1985.35		VMSSPT::NICHOLS	Conferences are like apples	`Wed Jul 22 1992 21:01`	12
	<Windows-NT is a real, virtual-memory operating system that has many or <most of the features of VMS and UNIX. It runs all MS-DOS and Windows <applications already in place. This makes it the vehicle by which the <traditional mainframes and mid-range computers will be displaced by <file servers, with Windows-NT running on the desktops (where necessary <for virtual memory applications) and Windows-NT running on a high-end <Intel or Digital file server. And it is being built by the same man who gave us RSX-11M, and VMS which not accidentally is 1 letter earlier than WNT (Dave Cutler)
1985.36	Some perspective	BOLTON::PLOUFF	Owns that third brand computer	`Fri Jul 24 1992 17:06`	38
	For a good perspective on this note string, read _Accidental Empires_, by Robert X. Cringeley. "Cringeley" is _InfoWorld_'s gossip columnist. While a lot of the book is gossipy and superficial, some of Cringeley's points speak directly to the opportunity discussed here. I'd like to mention three of them -- a spur to read the book. 1. Microsoft is not a company devoted to technical excellence, high performance products or even good product quality. It simply wants to be ubiquitous. Windows NT is hardly a bundle of exciting, new technological developments, but Microsoft will push hard to make it ubiquitous. An aside: In 1987, I bought a personal computer first introduced two years earlier. It featured then both command line interface and windowing, plus preemptive multitasking, shared reentrant libraries, an object-oriented OS kernel, almost perfect compatibility up and down the product line, plus graphics accelerator and audio output standard. It still does, and most of my 1987 software still runs fine on the 1992 operating system version. _Byte_ magazine has carried many technical details on these poing. Today, outside its video niche, with an installed base of 3 million units, it's considered a failure. My point: technical excellence has little to do with market success if you're not first or second in the field. 2. Digital, like all middle-aged computer companies, is concerned by and large with protecting its established business. Breakthrough products, and wild success, depend on ignoring the past. 3. People buy new kinds of computers when there is a "compelling application" to justify the purchase. In that case, other factors are irrelevant. Three such applications are VisiCalc, Lotus 1-2-3 and Aldus PageMaker. It's worth noting that the first and third broke new ground for individuals. 1-2-3 was compelling because of its performance, gotten at the expense of portability. Point: strong success in software depends on adapting to the best features of the machine. Mere "porting" does not create standout applications. Wes
1985.37	# PC's for internal use < 0	STAR::MONTAGUE	Lead, Follow, or get Out of the Way	`Mon Jul 27 1992 20:45`	27
	let me interject some cold water onto the surfing note .... To "catch the wave" we need the tool (the surfboard or PC in this case). To order and receive a PC internal to DEC is just about impossible to do in any reasonable amount of time (reasonable is less than three (3) months). I buy for VMS Development and we have been honestly trying to switch the desktop platform to PC's from x-terms and workstations so that the engineers begin to see how the real world hooks back into VMS platforms. The internal supply chain for PC's does not work. We will miss this wave because our own internal process won't let us ship a PC inside, no PC's inside means no development of product, no development of product means nothing to offer for sale, and no sale means no chance for profit. I have orders outstanding for 44+ PC units. Some of the orders are 8 months old. You don't go outside because that is not cost effective. So as far as catching the wave ... not a chance ... so we don't have the tools so we will sit on the beach and be "surfer wanabees". ---------------------------- Now this picture can change IF and only IF manufacturing can make enough of the PC's available to IEG to satisfy some of the internal demand. Don Quixote would like that kind of challenge. Regards, /jon
1985.38	Try 1-800-DIGITAL? Or maybe outside vendor?	RANGER::JCAMPBELL		`Mon Jul 27 1992 21:53`	10
	I agree that it is ridiculous that you can't get PCs internally from Digital. If the ordinary channels don't work, you might try calling 1-800-DIGITAL and order as if you're calling as a real customer. If that doesn't work, you might consider buying from Gateway or Dell, and it's probably a good idea to have some of these units anyhow because we want to be sure that the software we create works on the most popular vendors' platforms... Jon
1985.39	Beauraucracy will stop you cold...	ZENDIA::SEKURSKI		`Mon Jul 27 1992 23:49`	5
	How many VP signatures would you need to obtain to get one of those ?
1985.40		STAR::MONTAGUE	Lead, Follow, or get Out of the Way	`Tue Jul 28 1992 01:19`	18
	Strangely enough I can get one/two Dell/Compacq/other vendor PC with but one signature besides mine. But that is not cost effective. For those D.E.C. has to pay real money. Having one or three or so as test platforms is ok. Buying 100+ isn't. I'd order the PC's on my credit card through PCBYDEC if I thought I could get the reimbursment through the financial audit questions that a $35,000 credit card bill would raise. And having been on the receiving end of many audits, I know what chance me and the snowball would have. /jon Note: IEG money is also very real. But it is much cheaper to spend IEG money than external money, and especially for a product that only has a 2-3 year life span.
1985.41		MAJORS::ALFORD	lying Shipwrecked and comatose...	`Tue Jul 28 1992 10:15`	2
	Buy an IBM PC, you can get those delivered quick enough...
1985.42	external vendors are taking zippo margins	CARAFE::GOLDSTEIN	Global Village Idiot	`Tue Jul 28 1992 19:40`	21
	I'm not sure how much money we save by buing internally! PCs are a low-margin business. Our traditional 27% IEG pricing makes no sense there; if Jim Liu were to let PCs go via IEG at 27%, then his business unit (set up to run at very low margin, high volume) would be losing lots of money on every sale. That's not like traditional VAXes, where the 27% usually covered manufacturing's transfer. (This, of course, is simply a reflection on what's happening to the industry, and to our margins in particular.) Our actual cost of PCs is probably competitive with other like vendors' costs. Some of them are charging very, very small markups. If the PC you need is NOT quite as fancy as Digital's own (and we tend to make "better" rather than "cheaper"), then the true cost to Digital of buying outside may be lower than buying inside. You can buy a nice 386-25/4M/SVGA/80MB PC for $1100 from a local store. It won't perform quite as nicely as our own, but if that's what it takes to get people "up to speed" on what our customers are using, then it looks like a good deal to me. Heck, get 'em to put the monitor on a separate line item and it'll probably be "expense", not "capital"!
1985.43		IOSG::WDAVIES	There can only be one ALL-IN-1 Mail	`Wed Jul 29 1992 09:04`	6
	Quick question, surely a PC is a PC ? Bit naive I guesss, but doesn't everyone use the same basic chip-sets,drives etc ? I know most have different packaging - but what makes the difference - assuming were talking equals 486DX v 486DX ? Winton
1985.44	A place we can really be "World Class"	JOET::JOET	Question authority.	`Wed Jul 29 1992 11:51`	23
	re: .43 (WDAVIES) > Quick question, surely a PC is a PC ? Bit naive I guesss, but doesn't > everyone use the same basic chip-sets,drives etc ? I know most have > different packaging - but what makes the difference - assuming were > talking equals 486DX v 486DX ? It turns out that not every motherboard design with a yMHZ x86 chip on it performs the same as every other design. If you look at computer reviews in _PC_Magazine_ you usually see Compaq machines outperforming J. Random Clone boxes. The BIOS you pick, the support chipset, and especially things like cache (speed, amount, etc.) have a major impact on usable speed. I have no idea how many companies there are out there who design motherboards, but it must take quite a bit of engineering. Why DEC hasn't gone into this area (designing and manufacturing higher performance but non-proprietary x86 motherboards) is unknown to me. It certainly seems like something we have the expertise/resources/need to do and could capitalize on. (If we already do it, I haven't heard about it and we sure don't advertise the fact.) -joe tomkowitz
1985.45	a pc can be anything	SGOUTL::BELDIN_R	D-Day: 245 days and counting	`Wed Jul 29 1992 12:19`	8
	re .43 "PC" means personal computer to me. It means any computer that I can use "personally". That would include an Apple, an Amiga, or and IBM clone. I know that's not the "PC (politically correct)" attitude, so sue me! :-) Dick
1985.46		TOKLAS::feldman	Larix decidua, var. decify	`Wed Jul 29 1992 18:27`	10
	re: .46 > (heard about a thousand times) "When is this going to be available > under MS Windows?" or "Do you have a client/server version of this What is "this"? I realize there may be several answers. So I'm really asking, what are the products that we have that your customers would like to see ported to Windows, Client Server, or IBM/SNA environments? Gary
1985.47		UTROP1::SIMPSON_D	just call me Lazarus	`Thu Jul 30 1992 16:52`	12
	re .44 > I have no idea how many companies there are out there who design > motherboards, but it must take quite a bit of engineering. Why DEC > hasn't gone into this area (designing and manufacturing higher > performance but non-proprietary x86 motherboards) is unknown to me. It The reason we don't do it is because we now have the best in the business doing it for us - Intel. Tandy and Olivetti built our earlier and lower-end machines, but the new 400 series have Intel motherboards, and right now are the only boards on the market designed for i586 upgrades.
1985.48	FWIW	HOTAIR::INGRAM	That was then, This isn't happening.	`Thu Jul 30 1992 20:25`	14
	> I have no idea how many companies there are out there who design > motherboards, but it must take quite a bit of engineering. It used to, but with the advent of off-the-shelf ASICs and VLSI chipsets, it's not that major an undertaking any more. I just bought a no-name clone 386SX-25 motherboard. It has a whopping 19 chips on it (not counting memory, of course)! Only 5 of the chips (CPU, keyboard controller, CMOS memory, BIOS, and "chipset" (only one chip, actually)) could be considered LSI density or above. Larry
1985.49	NT - the Perot of Operating Systems	SALSA::MOELLER	There'll always be a	`Fri Jul 31 1992 00:38`	8
	We should and are building Pathworks for NT over VMS and ULTRIX and OSF/1 and pray we get some of the disk server business. As far as selling desktops with NT, it'll be difficult to match INTEL's market lead advantages. Like answering the question of INTEL emulation on non-INTEL platforms. karl
1985.50	Tiger PCs are what DEC needs to sell	MR4DEC::GREEN	Perot's the dud.	`Fri Jul 31 1992 02:14`	14
	RE: Intel being the best in the business. They are brand new to the motherboard business and having worked with them now for over a year, they are still learning. They also don't come cheap. The all DEC-built and designed Tiger PCs are what we need. They are currently for sale in GIA, but not Europe and US. They are both better and cheaper than the Intel and Tandy supplied PCs and we need to replace those vendors with teh Tiger products asap. Jim Lui is on the right track.
1985.51	These are some products to port...	RANGER::JCAMPBELL		`Fri Jul 31 1992 03:21`	41
	re: .46 There are a dozen or two Digital software products that are "best-in-class" that we might choose to port to NT, and in my opinion we would do well to port them as our highest priority. I'm not familiar with all of them, but here are a few: 1. RDB and its associated applications. 2. LSE. (Yes, that's right. Very few if any of the development environments come with good language sensitive editors...) 3. Some of our expert (AI) systems. 4. Our TP products. 5. The GEM back-end and our language products (this is being done). 6. DEC's super-accurate math runtime library (I'm not kidding about this. Mary Paine's work on our math library has made it the most accurate in the industry; it is, literally, "good to the last bit." 7. eXcursion - the X-windows interface for MS-Windows (this is being done). 8. Bookreader 9. Remote System Manager (RSM) - Large enterprises need a mechanism for loading application and system software and upgrades onto hundreds or thousands of PCs in an orderly fashion. Our current version, which remotely loads software and operating systems onto VMS or ULTRIX clients and provides automated, scheduled backup, is somewhat cumbersome, but the functions it provides are unique. 10. The VMS debugger. There are few, if any, debuggers that even come close. I don't know the VMS layered product set enough to know which others are best-in-class (or, like RSM, are unique).
1985.52	some passing comments, my n cents as n->2 from below	STAR::ABBASI	i^(-i) = SQRT(exp(PI))	`Fri Jul 31 1992 03:50`	24
	> 2. LSE. (Yes, that's right. Very few if any of the development > environments come with good language sensitive editors...) Does anyone knows how many of major software companies out there uses such editors (language sensitive)? I think Emacs is most popular 'out there' , I dont know much about Emacs, but I think it is a programmable (macros) and very versatile. > 6. DEC's super-accurate math runtime library (I'm not kidding about > this. Mary Paine's work on our math library has made it the most > accurate in the industry; it is, literally, "good to the last bit." Most of this is written in macro , I believe, and customized to VAX/ALPHA hardware, how easy would porting this be? > 10. The VMS debugger. There are few, if any, debuggers that even > come close. I think the future fashion in an object-oriented debuggers, where you can examine an 'object' etc... Microsoft was working on such debugger few years ago. dont know current state. yes, VMS symbolic debuger is good, but also is a window based debugger I used 3 years ago on SUN workstation, that was neat debugger. /nasser ps. you forgot to mention Xdelta. ;-)
1985.53		UTROP1::SIMPSON_D	just call me Lazarus	`Fri Jul 31 1992 08:20`	9
	re .50 > both better and cheaper than the Intel and Tandy supplied PCs > and we need to replace those vendors with teh Tiger products How do you substantiate this? We haven't releasd the higher-end Tiger PCs yet, and our existing high-end - which are Intel - are outperforming competition like Compaq (I've seen the comparitive benchmarks).
1985.54	Borland debugger is pretty good.	TPSYS::BUTCHART	TNSG/Software Performance	`Fri Jul 31 1992 12:33`	11
	re .51 > 10. The VMS debugger. There are few, if any, debuggers that even > come close. Actually, I've been using the debugger that comes with Borland C++. At the level I'm using it, at least, it compares quite well with the VMS debugger. In fact, I like it better than our DECwindows/Motif version of the VMS debugger... /Dave
1985.55		GIAMEM::LEFEBVRE	Personal Computer Group	`Fri Jul 31 1992 12:55`	19
	<<< Note 1985.53 by UTROP1::SIMPSON_D "just call me Lazarus" >>> re .50 >> both better and cheaper than the Intel and Tandy supplied PCs >> and we need to replace those vendors with teh Tiger products > > How do you substantiate this? We haven't releasd the higher-end Tiger > PCs yet, and our existing high-end - which are Intel - are > outperforming competition like Compaq (I've seen the comparitive > benchmarks). .50 is correct. Intel makes our DECpc 433 Workstation and Tandy, of course, makes our current portfolio of desktop systems. I believe you're referring to the 400st series. Mark.
1985.56	Tiger is the future, not the present	MR4DEC::GREEN	Perot's the dud.	`Fri Jul 31 1992 15:50`	23
	RE: Intel/Tandy vs Tiger solutions. You are right, we haven't released the high-end Tiger. But I'm very familiar with the product. The 433 version is higher performance than the PC433W at almost half the transfer cost. In the low-end, the DECpc 320SXL (the Tiger version) is selling for $965, but only in GIA. Compare it with the DECstation 320SX currently selling through DECDirect for $1,139. The $1,139 is actually a good price, competitive with DELL. TIGER would be all alone at $965!! We have to get Tiger into the US and Europe quickly. The 400ST is a great performing product, no question. It's even selling well. We just aren't making that much on it. We have to keep that in mind, and not just focus on raw performance numbers. It's just too expensive reselling PCs from other people. The margin pressure doesn't allow it. Tiger is the answer to that. So my point about Tiger wasn't that we have it now. We have to get it soon.
1985.57		TOKLAS::feldman	Larix decidua, var. decify	`Fri Jul 31 1992 17:01`	28
	re: .51 and follow-ons There's a fundamental flaw in the traditional analysis of tools that frequently causes us to overrate ourselves. That flaw is the assumption that neat features make the product better. The correct principle is that neat features that will be used make the product better. Both LSE and VAX Debug are feature laden. The new DEC Debug GUI, which I gather is being well received, presents just a small subset of available features on VMS (with the others available on the command line). In an old survey of LSE users, we learned that the compile/review cycle was highly used, but template expansion was less frequently used (and I sometimes think that the only people to use LSE's overview capability all work in ZK2). LSE beats emacs in ease of customization of templates, and a few other areas, but not in the out of the box template mechanism; emacs beats LSE (and most other editors) in its indefinite undo, wide range of packages, and, of course, price. I'm just starting to explore PC program development editors, and I'm prepared to be impressed. There are some world-class ideas and features in LSE, but overall, I don't think I would put it there. (Speed it up, give it indefinite undo, recursive edit, and pure emacs emulation, then it will be the best.) As for bookreader, I understand that a new version, which may be world class, is on the verge of entering field test. The version that I'm currently using compares poorly to the help tool on MS Windows. Gary
1985.58	iceberg time	STAR::MONTAGUE	Lead, Follow, or get Out of the Way	`Tue Aug 04 1992 12:57`	13
	A few replies back I'd said throw "cold water" on your wave --- Now let me park the ICEBERG off shore.... Just got a mail from IEG telling me in essence that any PC order I had would be returned, any new order would be returned and try again in January. Returned as in cancelled. Unless there is some radical change in the PC space, the closest we will get to this wave is listening to the radio and reading the magazines. Much like an Eskimo did when the surfing craze hit southern Cal. /jon