Conference 7.286::digital

	Hi Carole,

	Just subscribe to the New York Times or the
	big Boston paper.... that'll be the first real
	information any of us'll get.

	Steve H

    
    Carole,
    
    Gotta say it's only rumor but here's what I heard.  The next package
    will be the same as the last.  I know of someone who has been
    "approached" by Personnel about leaving and this is what he was told.
    The time frames I've heard are two:  Friday, June 26th is the last
    day for some and others will be told to leave by the end of July. 
    
    It's not much and I'm sorry if it just adds to the anxiety but I just
    don't make enough to subscribe to the NYT or WSJ...maybe in the next
    life...}-).
    
    

    Which plant does this person work at that we are talking about? Also
    has anyone heard anything about the Burlington plant layoffs or any-
    thing else?

    Our group was told that layoffs for us will probably happen in July
    as it is pending approval for implementation at a corporate level,
    apparantly they are NOT SURE how much the next package is gonna be.
    
    uh-oh
    
    Mark

    Well, I just had lunch with Elvis and he said ..................

>    This is what I was told by personnel a couple of weeks ago.

	By who in personnel? Job title will be fine.

			Alfred

.6>    This is what I was told by personnel a couple of weeks ago.
    {...}
.6>    As for a TFSO, no word yet.  There MOST LIKELY will be one, however,
.6>    not nearly as generous as any in the past have been.
    
    recognizing this to be unreliable rumor, it still seems likely to prove
    true.
    
    What this would mean is that those who were most obviously expendable
    got the best financial deal, and those who were valuable enough for
    retention the longest get cast aside with the least reward to show for
    their loyalty and efforts...
    
    sure doesn't sound like the Digital I joined over a decade ago!

    Mebbe they'll give you a WHOLE ROLL of this.  :^)
    
    DEC 36 5/8, change -0 3/4; DJIA 3308.89, change -20.60 at 12:28.
    Report entered at Wed Jun 17 12:29:06 1992.
    
    Mark

    The rumor floating around the west coast is:
    
    Between June 29 and July 10, a voluntary package will be offerred to
    everyone.
    
    13 weeks pay plus 3 weeks per year for up to 10 years service, plus 4
    weeks per year over 10 years service. No mention of benefits, etc.
    
    This rumor is worth what you paid to get it.
    

    RE: -1
    I believe we're talking 3 weeks per year for <10 *OR* 4 weeks per year
    for >10, not both ... that would bee too sweet, even by DEC standards !
    
    Jerry (who really likes the TFSO packaged mentioned by our French
    counterparts ...)

re .9:

>    Mebbe they'll give you a WHOLE ROLL of this.  :^)
>    
>    DEC 36 5/8, change -0 3/4; DJIA 3308.89, change -20.60 at 12:28.

Well, DEC's stock price has proved to be squeezably soft.

    ho ho ho
    
    Now, back to our movie "Honey, I Shrunk the Buyout"
    

    Do you think they are trying to hint at something here?
    I was secretary for 18 engineers and 2 managers, now I am
    secretary for only 5 engineers.
    
    Should I start packing?
    

    
    re: .15
    
    If you are not in Engineering, don't worry about it.

    I've "heard" the same.  Secretaries don't need to worry.  Ironic...
    19 years ago when I came here I was a secretary and wanted to be a
    technician.  Well, now I'm a tech and my job would be safer if I were
    still a secretary.  Oh well.
    
    Marie

     My understanding is that all the heads of Digital businesses have announced
   plans to downsize. This means people. Take no comfort in whatever business
   you're in.....


      - Bob

        I've heard some horror stories about personal experiences with
        Corporate Security and Personnel regarding speculation about any
        future TFSO, etc. programs.
        
        Please be careful to ensure that any information you pass along
        by mail or in notes is accurate and comes from good sources.
        
        If the information you receive is from a mail message, be sure
        you have permission to forward it.  If you forward or post it,
        always include all forwarding addresses.

        This applies particularly to any speculation regarding future
        TFSO or other RIF packages.

        Please make sure that you propagate only officially sanctioned
        or clearly attributed data.  You may save yourself a good deal
        of inconvenience.

        A word to the wise should be sufficient.
        
        Tom

    re .19 (Tom):
    
    In addition, one ought be careful that obsolescent and obsolete
    information is not forwarded as "new" stuff.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    
    Without intention, I'm sure, it would appear that the last two caveats
    have snuffed out further replies or perhaps interest has just wanned.
    
    Hope it's just the later.
    

>    (Buffalo Springfield circa 1964-5)

Naw. 67'.

Lee

    definitely '66

    Step outta line the man come...
    
    and take you a-way.....
    

    
    Like looking in your mirror and seeing a police car
    
    

Hey... just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean that they're
_not_ out to get you!

				- Bluejay Adametz
				  (checking my 6')

    
    Major Rathole Alert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    

    Tin soldiers and Nixon coming, 4 DECked in Ohio....
    
    For the times they are a changing........
    
    
    
    

re Blinn's .19

>        I've heard some horror stories about personal experiences with
>        Corporate Security and Personnel regarding speculation about any
>        future TFSO, etc. programs.
        
>        Please be careful to ensure that any information you pass along
>        by mail or in notes is accurate and comes from good sources.

So what is your source of such "horror" stories? Let us preach what we
practice.

-Phil

	And now back to our Neil Young crockblock... 

    The not knowing is what really gets to ya.  If the company only
    had the nerve to say what's going on and who, maybe then the rest
    of us wouldn't have such a hard time dealing with it.
    
    Even the people who will get cut, why keep it such a secret.  At
    least give the people a little time to accept it before they are
    left out on the sidewalk.
    
    I don't know about anywhere else but here in Upstate New York,
    moral is very bad.  Just because we don't know what's going on or
    when, for sure.
    
    That's enough.  I could go on forever......
    

    So what happened at the BOD meeting?  Did the buyout get considered?
    
    Mark

    I can see DEC's point for waiting until the last minute before spilling
    the beans.  Some of the "list" of folks are contantly changing, due to
    changing business needs, attrition, you name it.  Better to say it
    right once, than several times wrong.  
    
    The waiting chaps me too, but hopefully, when I'm told the ground will
    be firm, regardless of which side of the fence it's on ...
    
    Jerry

re     <<< Note 1948.36 by RAVEN1::JERRYWHITE "Ren, what's `TFSO' mean ?" >>>

...
>    the beans.  Some of the "list" of folks are contantly changing, due to
>    changing business needs, attrition, you name it.  Better to say it
>    right once, than several times wrong.  
    
    	Changing business needs. Yo, veeps, this is a Multibillion dollar
    corporation. We should know our mission, our strategies, our goals,
    our needs etc, already. We shouldn't be making new plans etc now, those
    decisions should have already been made.
    
    q
    
     

.34>      If the company only
.34>      had the nerve to say what's going on and who, maybe then the rest
.34>      of us wouldn't have such a hard time dealing with it.
    
    Therein lies the rub.  	"the company" 	*IS* 	"the rest of us"
    
    And there ain't nobody who knows what's going on.  If there was any
    such knowledge we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.  Problem
    is that there is no unified vision shared by a collective that could be
    labeled "the company".  Instead there are at least as many visions as
    there are visionaries, maybe lots more (I'd bet on that! :-), and the
    visionaries aren't in a position to mold the company into a cohesive
    body any more...

    re: last few
    
    Proof of this confusion lies in the number of different rumors about
    layoffs that we hear each day.  Some are more believable than others,
    but when so many people are coming up with so many layoff options,
    doesn't that say something about what people _hope_ will happen?  The
    last rumor I heard, from a totally unconfirmed source, was that there
    would be a voluntary layoff option available to everyone, and that it
    would include one year of pay.  Again, this is an unconfirmed RUMOR. 
    My point is that people want this option.  They want to create what
    they hope will be a reality.  Would this have been the case about 5
    years ago?  I haven't been with the company that long, but from what I
    understand, people were not, on the average, this unhappy in their
    jobs.  Of course there are always unhappy people, but there weren't
    wild assumptions about layoffs, and whether or not they will be ALLOWED
    to leave the company.
    
    I agree with Carla.  We deserve some answers, not just the baloney they
    keep handing us.
    
    Thanks,
    Sarah
    

    I think that people who think there's gonna be a voluntary
    buyout are dreaming. Especially the one year salary part.
    
    Fact is they aren't even sure what the latest severance 
    package will be...that's the only reason why I'm still 
    sitting here, so I've been told.
    
    History tells us that it has to be worse.
    
    
    Mark
    
    

    re:        <<< Note 1948.19 by DR::BLINN "Stamp out conformity." >>>
    >              -< A word to the wise should be sufficient >-

    >    I've heard some horror stories about personal experiences with
    >    Corporate Security and Personnel regarding speculation about any
    >    future TFSO, etc. programs.
        
    Well, I can affirm, having experienced one of those "horror stories",
    you should be very careful about putting anything here that's very
    specific.  At least if it comes from a reliable, official source.
    
    I had a meeting with security about my supposed participation in this
    conference and supposed comments about layoffs er... right-sizing back
    more than a year ago.  Not a fun experience.  Also, not necessary since
    the charge was unfounded.  But also the experience was not forgotten.
    
    Basically, all you're going to see here is rumor.  I believe there's
    generally fire where there's smoke.  Sure is a poor substitute for
    clear, effective, timely communication between corporate management and
    the employee population.  But that's clearly a decision that has been
    deliberately made.
    
    Call me a lot wiser ....

.39>    ...and whether or not they will be ALLOWED to leave the company.
    
    shouldn't that be "ALLOWED to stay with the company"?
    				  ^^^^^^^^^

    re: .42
    
    I think the point is that there are people speculating whether or not
    they'll be ALLOWED to get PAID to leave the company (i.e., will they be
    eligible for TFSO).
    
    Of course, I could be wrong...
    
    -- Russ

    Gee, this note was more fun when lyrics were flying
    at us from the late great sixties! IMHO, this next round of
    layoffs has to be the end. Everyone I talk with is waiting for the 
    shoe to drop, and they aren't too concerned about doing the job. Lets
    get on with it! tjk 

    	To think the next round has to be the last is naive to say the
    least. Now that the company has acquired the taste for blood, it won't
    go away as long as we're in a tailspin. They will reassess the need to
    downsize at every quarter. So it really is pointless to worry about it
    or to say, "Let's just get this one layoff overwith so we can get back
    to work." I've been through all this before as have a number of my
    friends from Wang who are here now. They could even tell you that there
    will be no more layoffs and then start handing out the pink slips the
    next day. So the only thing you can do about it is try to push it way
    back into the back of your mind. It's difficult, but the only way to
    stop the bleeding is to turn the company around.

"Rumors thrive in the absence of official information."

                                                Bob

re .45

>>				      They could even tell you that there
>>    will be no more layoffs and then start handing out the pink slips the
>>    next day.

It's this type of attitude that's been taken by American Business Management
that has them running a very close second (maybe even first) to politicians
and used-car salespersons IMO.

Bob.

    AROUND HERE THE ONES CONSIDERED LUCKY ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE "GOT TO
    LEAVE"  HELL OF A COMMENT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WORST DEPRESION IN OUR
    INDUSTRYS HISTORY! AND THE STOCK JUST KEEPS DROPPING!!

    The computer industry is not in a depression.  Every company that
    Digital competes with had growth in sales in calendar Q1 and was
    profitable.

    re: .45: Being a veteran of Wang layoffs, too, I was not dreaming that
    this is the last round.  I'm saying it should be, take the deep cut,
    re-train and refocus those who remain and turn DEC around. If they
    adopt the Wang approach, where they lay off every quarter, then whoever
    is left after two years can turn the lights out in Maynard, like Wang
    did. tjk

    We wuz already told that if things don't get better,
    it's going to happen again in January.
    
    Mark

    re: .51
    
    That's precisely the problem.  A company is in much better shape if
    they take their lumps all at once.  If it has a clear picture of where
    it wants to go and what it must do the whole thing should be decided in
    one ore two quarters and implemented the next quarter, ALL AT ONCE. 
    Not some each quarter for three years.  What happens is that no one is
    productive once they know that they may be next.  Those who have
    marketable skills say, "screw this, I want a job with a future."  and
    they leave.  Eventually you get so paranoid that NO useful work gets
    done.  If you're not sure where you are going, a company makes furtive
    steps toward reorganization hoping that a little here and a little
    there will do the trick.  I don't think that will work.
    
    We are trying to cross this creek without getting wet and we've decided
    to perform twelve jumps to complete the task.  We will get wet, may
    even drown.
    
    Dave

    	I just wish I understood WHERE the company expected to be making
    money a year or so down the road. Wouldn't everyone like to see a
    business model/plan for the company's next 3-5 years? Maybe that would
    help me to understand where we have too many people and where we have
    too few. Maybe, in some cases, we only need to move people into new
    areas which would require minimal, if any, training. Nah...too simple.
    What does an engineer like me know about running a $12b/year business?
    	With even a basic model, we might be able to decide how many
    software engineers we think we'll need (as an example). I, for one,
    thought we were slowly evolving into a software company, and this sort
    of approach would make sense. Also, maybe comparing our distribution of
    skills/positions against other software
    companies...Lotus...Microsoft..to see how we stack up in terms of
    sales, marketing, engineering, etc. But no, again, I'm missing
    something basic.
    	This latest round of layoffs is supposed to hit software
    engineering just as hard, with rumors of as much as %15 being cut.
    Sure, that will kill many software projects as they try to lop off 15%
    of the people "fairly" and "equitably" across groups. Sure, these
    software projects are key to sustaining our current revenue and any
    potential revenue growth, but why just slowly bleed to death when you
    can just rip the heart right out?
    	It's not a rathole I want to get into, but the criteria for layoffs
    hasn't been discussed in detail in this conference. Once you get past
    the "poor performers," what other criteria are used? Well, I heard
    yesterday that EEO considerations are high on the list. That's nice. It
    will be important to maintain a diverse workforce as we go out of
    business and put bar locks on the front doors.
    	I've been here over ten years and have always had hope and optimism
    about this company's future. For the first time, I'm getting really
    disgusted. Some sign from above that shows steps being taken to
    actually improve the state of the company would certainly be
    appreciated. My lack of optimism could easily be turned around.

    re.52
    
    I think I would rather see gradual employee decreases, than a large
    reduction, and then a re-hire when business or the economy gets better.
    Isn't that what raytheon does?

Anent layoffs:

A disclaimer -- I don't know anything more, and probably somewhat less -- than 
at least some others in this Conference.  However, I do know the following --

In the almost 25 years I've been with Digital, until this round, the Corporation
has never had a layoff.  In point of fact, it was something that we pointed at
with pride.

However, because of that, the Corporation has had no experience with the process.
This means that, since the people are new at the game, it's a painful and awkward
process both to the people being laid off and the people deciding whom to lay off
and the methodology by which it's done.

Regrettably, the immediate derivitive is low morale [nitty little observation:
"morale" refers to espirit; "moral" refers to either ethical behavior or a lesson
of a parable]; and past a certain point, low morale tends towards self-
perpetuation.

It's fine to echo the words from Macbeth, "If 'twere done, 'tis well 'twere done
quickly"; however, the result would be less than useful if one isn't quite sure
what the ultimate goal is (like the slogan, "Ready, fire, aim," something's left
out of the considerations).

Currently, the Corporation  is driven by a lot of pressures.  One is the internal
finances; another is sales and market projections and actuals; a third is the
pressures from the investment community; another is pressure by customers; yet
another are competing internal projects; and there's always the concern of 
hostile takeover and/or greenmail.  As a result, there are a lot of factors that
result in apparent, and in some cases actual, vascillations.

Further, if there is little actual information, rumors rush in to fill the 
vacuum.  This can drive morale down further (if possible).

I cannot give a pep talk, but I suspect a lot of "final decisions" are far from
really being final.  Going into a talspin helps neither the individual nor
the associated business unit.  Nor the Corporation, for that matter.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

    see 1963.3

    re: .55
    
    >In the almost 25 years I've been with Digital, until this round, the
    >Corporation has never had a layoff.
    
    Could you clarify this Steve?  Are you stating that previous TFSO
    actions were not "layoffs" but the current round will be "layoffs"?
    How so?  TFSO's were too "generous" to be "layoffs"?  Current plans
    might allow for recall/rehire when times get better?
    
    What makes this new round a "layoff" while the previous rounds of
    people being told "you have no job" are not "layoffs"?
    
    Seems to me that we should be getting better at this by now.  Previous
    TFSO plans have had to deal with similar issues.  I don't see where
    this is something "new".
    
    -- Russ

Re .57 (Russ):

Sorry my language was imprecise:  By "this round" I mean(t) "since the advent of
the TFSO."  It's still recvent; more important, if the rumors have _any_ 
validity, this time, the Corporation will take a Significant hit.  Enough so that
some groups will be cut _past_ the bone, _past_ the marrow, and just be cut, 
period.  

This is Heavy stuff, and to that extent, it's still new.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

   > of the people "fairly" and "equitably" across groups. Sure, these
   > software projects are key to sustaining our current revenue and any
   > potential revenue growth, but why just slowly bleed to death when you
    
    
      At a recent group meeting a statement was made concerning software
    and cuts to be made in software.The statement was that "DEC has 708
    software products and that '4' of them bring in 50% of the (software)
    revenue." The other 704 bring in the other 50%.The people cuts referred
    to David Stone's group cutting 20%.
    
                                        Rich
    

.55>  ...the Corporation has had no experience with the process.  This means 
.55>  that, since the people are new at the game, it's a painful and awkward
.55>  process both to the people being laid off and the people deciding whom 
.55>  to lay off and the methodology by which it's done.
    
    In other words, the Corporation is not doing well in dealing with it
    because this is a new issue.
    
    Wonder if there is any common element between that, and the current
    business situation in a technological market that continues to evolve
    and present new issues?

.55>  Going into a talspin helps neither the individual...nor the Corporation
    
    Um, should that be "tailspin" or "talespin" Steve?
    
    --bruce
    

    In the early 60s, when Boeing in Seattle was doing massive layoffs,
    they said that
    
    optimists brought their lunch with them...
    
    pessimists left their cars running in the parking lot.

    re: .55
    
>  ...the Corporation has had no experience with the process.  This means 
>  that, since the people are new at the game, it's a painful and awkward
>  process both to the people being laid off and the people deciding whom 
>  to lay off and the methodology by which it's done.
    
    Geez, maybe someone should read a book, go to a class, or ask someone
    who's done it successfully.  
    
    Look, this is not the time for either games or "learning experiences". 
    Right now we can't morally afford the sacred DEC tradition of
    reinventing the wheel. Good people are being made to feel worthless. 
    The best and the brightest are doubting their abilities.  It's people's
    lives and well being we're talking about here and the waste and human
    suffering is staggering.  
    
    While I may not be privy to a lot that's going on and why things are
    being done the way they are, I have this gut feeling that it's
    managerial amateur hour all over the company.  The stockholders, the 
    employees, and the reputation of what was once DEC all deserve better.
    
    -joe tomkowitz

>      At a recent group meeting a statement was made concerning software
>    and cuts to be made in software.The statement was that "DEC has 708
>    software products and that '4' of them bring in 50% of the (software)
>    revenue." The other 704 bring in the other 50%.The people cuts referred
>    to David Stone's group cutting 20%.

  This may be true, however the problem is that the 50% who are using those 4
products are most likely using other products as well. If you purchased VMS to
run VAX/Plunger to clear your drains, you are not going to be happy when your
account rep tells you that VAX/Plunger is going away but don't worry VMS will
still be around. 

  If this type of statistics is going to be used, people should look beyond the
1st cut. What percent of customers are ONLY using the top 4 revenue products?
If the answer is that 25% use ONLY the top 4 and another 25% use the top 4 plus
another 10 or 20 and nothing else, then fine, make some cuts.

  However if 90% of those customers using the top 4 revenue products use a wide
variety of other DEC software products to make those top 4 useful, then those
lower revenue products should get credit for "leveraging" the top money
getters.

  Once again we see how dangerous statistics can be in the wrong hands.

  George

Re:  50% revenue from top 4 products

Well, it's an interesting number, but it's also a static number.  What's
more interesting is when you factor in the dynamics of the marketplace.

It could be that those four software products will account for even more
sales next year, or it could be that those four products are cash cows
nearing the end of their product life, meaning that we'd expect to see
their revenues decline.

If it's the second case, then the question is:  Is it really such a wise
decision to keep funding those, at the expense of other products which
might have a lot more future earnings potential?

That's the whole thing about this business, isn't it?  It's important to
have some products that sell big today, but it's just as important (maybe
more important) to have products that sell tomorrow.  If we were to cut the
lowest revenue products, just because they aren't paying for themselves
today, we might well find that we've cut something that might have made us
tons of money tomorrow.

When I saw that statistic (50% from 4, 50% from 704), my first thought was
that the work was mostly done on those first four products, and that maybe
we should be examining the other 704 to see which has the most potential,
and therefore is in most immediate need of having its funding increased.

That's risktaking, but you know, nothing ventured, nothing gained, and all
that.

    I recently heard a rumor that managers were given instruction in the
    infamous "tap on the shoulder technique" via videotapes provided by one
    of the "professionals" we contracted to teach us how to do layoffs.  We
    made stink, but the word is that the managers themselves were gagging
    at the process and refused to use it for another round.
    
    fwiw,
    
    /rab

    re .59:
    
    >You have either been fired or layed off, and are out of a job.
    >
    >If you tell anybody, gee I got TSFO'd . They look at you and think you
    >are nuts.
    
    There's a Digital tradition that we have different names for things
    than the industry, or for that matter, the world at large, calls
    things.  Thus, where the electronics industry calls certain things
    "circuit cards," Digital calls them "modules"; and the electronics
    industry generally reserves "modules" for encapsulated circuits.
    
    Digital also called  the TFSO "involunray methodology."  However, isd
    this any worse than corporations (not Digital) referring to laying off
    as "right-sizing"?
    
    >So....let's stop pretending. 
    
    It's not pretending; it's DECultural projection.
    
    Re .61 (Bruce):
    
 >.55>  Going into a talspin helps neither the individual...nor the Corporation
 >   
 >   Um, should that be "tailspin" or "talespin" Steve?
    
    Both. :-D
    
    Re .63 (Joe):
    
    >Look, this is not the time for either games or "learning experiences". 
    >Right now we can't morally afford the sacred DEC tradition of
    >reinventing the wheel. ...
    
    I know someone who had a terrible childhood and was living a less-than-
    happy life because of feeling compelled to doing certain things as an
    adult that were carryovers (and unnecessary/counterproductive).  When I
    suggested,  "Why not do ...?" another course of action, the response I
    got was "Because that's all I know."
    
    I think Digital has the same mind set.
    
    > ......................... Good people are being made to feel worthless. 
    >The best and the brightest are doubting their abilities.  It's people's
    >lives and well being we're talking about here and the waste and human
    >suffering is staggering. 
    
    I don't think we're feeling "worthless" as much as "helpless."  Outside
    of a totally random drawing of names, _any_ decision-making process is
    bound to cause pain; moreover, any such process results in the
    development of arbitrary filtering/judgemental ceriteria, and anybody
    who is on the "wrong side" of these will be severely impacted.  The
    difficulty with the way it's being done is that it impacts everybody's 
    work, which adds to the problem.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Fewer VP's and managers lining their wallets with Digital money=
    STEP 1 to the companies recovery. Long live the old Digital.

    re: .67
    
    As far as I can tell DEC culture is a lot of toro kacka.  I've heard
    more managers tell the glories of DEC culture, bla, bla, bla, and now
    that times are bad, company values, people values, goals, direction,
    sense of purpose, all get flushed down the toilet.  This is to be
    excused because management is learning how to do it.
    
    I read somewhere that; first rate people hire first rate people, second
    rate people hire third rate people.  The DEC equivalent is that fourth
    rate people transition first rate people; look it up, it's in the
    orange book!
    
    DAR

re Note 1948.60 by CIMNET::WOJDAK:

>       At a recent group meeting a statement was made concerning software
>     and cuts to be made in software.The statement was that "DEC has 708
>     software products and that '4' of them bring in 50% of the (software)
>     revenue." The other 704 bring in the other 50%.The people cuts referred
>     to David Stone's group cutting 20%.
  
        Sure, having a too-diverse mix of products, too many of which
        are unprofitable, is part of the problem.  But it's not the
        only problem.

        Digital just doesn't work right, and this problem has been
        there for years and is still growing.   Things just don't get
        done, products don't get shipped, and in particular new ideas
        just die on the vine without making their way into products. 
        Nobody is able to make a decision and just "do it".

        We have created the ultimate consensus-driven matrix
        organization.  It is like setting concrete;  it is managerial
        gridlock.

        We need to be blown apart into semi-autonomous, and generally
        rather small, units that are truly self-contained businesses. 
        (I realize that there are special cases where this isn't
        practical, but I bet that those cases are few.)  They need to
        be managed by people who can make decisions and carry them
        out -- in a timely fashion.  There may be few such people
        at Digital these days.

        We have known for many years that our revenue-per-employee
        was way out of line with the industry.  This is a symptom of
        our managerial gridlock.  Simply eliminating some
        unprofitable projects or groups will do nothing to solve this
        problem (although it may improve the bottom line a little). 
        Across the board cuts not only will do nothing to solve the
        problem, but may have little effect on the bottom line, since
        our ability to function at even our present poor level may
        suffer, with resulting declining revenues.

        Heaven help us!  I see nobody in upper management who shows
        much promise of being able to make the truly radical changes
        needed.  I had some hope for Christ, but there is some
        evidence that even he has stepped into the Digital tar pit
        and is unable to free himself.

        Bob

    Revenue per employee is down so we seem to focus on getting rid of
    employees instead of boosting revenues ???
    

    We as a computer manufacturer do not have an "in the street" presence
    so we don't sell.  We have traditionally sold to people who *wanted*
    *Digital* computers and Digital solutions.  Now those people are
    looking around seeing what else is available.
    
    I My neighbour's son asked me the other day what field I worked in
    and I said computers ...  His immediate reaction was to ask if I'd
    heard of such and such a product for an Apple MacIntosh.  This happens
    time and time again.  Our products are not *known* except by those who
    know us.  I am therefore pleased to see Digital do some advertising.
    
    These ads though, are conceptual ... they say we're great at networking
    but they don't show how with one command we can copy a file from
    a user on a PC in Tokyo to a VAX VMS system in Anytown USA.  They
    don't show how you can move LOTUS 123 spreadsheets between mainframes
    and PCs ...
    
    They don't show that while our VMS DCL is proprietary, it is easy
    to use.  They don't show that the same easy to use operating system
    can be used on small Desktop systems and large mainframes.
    
    In other words, we have to get out there and overtly wave our flag
    telling EVERYBODY what makes our computer systems and applications
    better than anybody elses.  We've got to become the household type
    word that IBM PC and Apple Macintosh are.
    
    We have to make the ordering process easy.  I keep hearing from
    customers how difficult it is to order things with all the options
    and variants and so on, whether direct or via a VAR.  And as for
    mis-ships and ordering shortages (ohhh they didn't tell me I needed
    that too ... how much is it ?  $3000 ahhh thud ... silence).
    
    Once we have a street presence, then 3rd parties will write the
    little user applications which will increase the street presence
    and demand.
    
    We cannot sell solutions if we do not sell computers!
    
    Stuart
    

    
>    I My neighbour's son asked me the other day what field I worked in
>    and I said computers ...  His immediate reaction was to ask if I'd
>    heard of such and such a product for an Apple MacIntosh.  This happens
>    time and time again.

Well, that is kind of depressing, but there are two edges to the depression.

The other edge is that we, as Digital, are trying to market our wares to a
market that we, as a company, seem to know little about.  It is not at all
uncommon to find a technical person at Digital that knows almost nothing at
all about even some of the most popular or widely used software on the market.

It's worse than that.  About four years ago, a VMS software engineer went to
DECUS, and came back with the feedback that a sizeable subset of our customers
really wished that "SET HOST/DTE" knew how to autodial a Hayes compatible modem.
(Ok, I think it does now - but like a good DEC employee, I guess I really don't
know that for sure.)

What was the problem?  This SWE, one that was employed implementing network
software for VMS, had absolutely no idea what "Hayes Compability" meant (the
trip report said "Haze Compatibility").  When a person so directly involved in
data communication hadn't heard of the world's most popular small-computer modem,
my mind boggled.

When someone finds out that I'm a "computer person", and asks me some question
relevant to PeeCees or MacIntoshs, yes, I do get depressed that it isn't Digital
stuff that everyone wants to ask about.  If I can't answer the question, though,
I feel as if I've failed.  After all, software had been my business for years,
and how the heck can I write software to compete with the best and most
popular, when I don't even know anything about the best and most popular?

Digital's insularity is costing us tons in this regard.

re Note 1948.73 by KAOFS::S_BROOK:

>     They don't show that while our VMS DCL is proprietary, it is easy
>     to use.  They don't show that the same easy to use operating system
>     can be used on small Desktop systems and large mainframes.
  
        Compared to what the vast majority of desktop users are using
        -- you've got to be kidding!

        Bob

    OK, compared to window / icon type applicaitons on PCs and so
    on ... yes I'll eat some humble pie ... 
    
    On the other hand ... try using PC-DOS and get frustrated at all the
    things you cannot do ... or try using UNIX and fathom out what
    cryptic combination of near meaningless letters you need to do
    what you want.  With VMS DCL, the interface is consistent and
    powerful.
    

>        Compared to what the vast majority of desktop users are using
>        -- you've got to be kidding!

Every once in a while, I try to back up the hard disk on my workstation.  It
only takes about five minutes of messing around with help files and the manual
to get all the tape labels and backup commands all worked out so that the
BACKUP utility agrees to take ALL the files off the specified disk and put them
on the specified tape.  About one time in two, though, I find out that I did
something wrong when it decides that it doesn't like the label on the second
tape, and I can't convince it to use what's there.

In contrast, I recently got to help a friend back up a hard disk on her MessDOS
system.  The backup program painted all sorts of nice screens and icons and all
sorts of stuff that gave us warm fuzzy feelings that we were heading in the
right direction.  To be honest, it was also about five minutes before the tape
got rolling, but the big difference was that in this case, the manual was used
mainly to answer the "It can't be this easy" questions we were asking ourselves.
For that matter, most of the five minutes was spent pulling down menus and
requester boxes, just to see what widgets were available to be played with.

I s'pose someone who HADN'T been conditioned by VMS BACKUP could have skipped
the whole "This can't possibly be that easy!" phase and taken even less time.

Well, alright, maybe BACKUP is an extreme example.  I will say this, though:
It's been a while since I played much with MessDOS.  Sure, I have a laptop at
home that I use quite regularly, but I have two applications that I use, and
don't do much outside those.  With this friend's system, it was the first time
I've sat down and played with a state of the art PeeCee in a very long time.

I was embarassed.  For the company, I mean.  Just about every Windows application
I saw convinced me that our UI people have a lot to learn.  I learned that since
my computing needs rarely go beyond trying to get personal stuff done on a
standalone machine, I could very well get along with a fairly well configured
PeeCee with Windows, and never miss VMS or DEC software in general.

    It is indeed depressing ... and we are the number 2 computer
    corporation.
    
    One of the things that really concerns me is talk that we should be
    entering the field as systems integrators and outsourcers of computer
    services from application design to operations.  Here we are
    apparently in an industry that we seemingly don't understand as the
    number 2.  Here we are proposing to be able to study goodness knows
    how many of our customers' industries and recommend computer
    applications, services and hardware to run their business. Essentially
    saying we will know how to help you in your industry with computers,
    when we don't even know where the heck we are going in our own!
    
    That is *really* scary.
    
    Stuart

    **RATHOLE ALERT!!!
    
    This topic seems to have gotten off track.  Maybe the moderator can
    move the most recent subject matter to another note!!
    
    /Dan

    Accepting the RATHOLE warnings from .-1...
    
    .-2:
>    It is indeed depressing ... and we are the number 2 computer
>    corporation.
    
      I thought Fujitsu was number 2 now...   maybe this worldwide
    competition is another reason we're looking at layoffs worldwide in
    FY93.

Re: .80

>      I thought Fujitsu was number 2 now...   maybe this worldwide
>    competition is another reason we're looking at layoffs worldwide in
>    FY93.

It's actually a matter of which figures you use and how you manipulate them.

For example, you can choose the 4 quarters that best cover a given 12-month
period for all the companies being compared, or you can take the year end 
figure reported in a particular calendar year.  You may include all 
revenues or only revenues from computer related business (that's how HP can 
be made to look big - it's got a huge proportion of its revenues from test, 
measurement and medical equipment).  You may include subsidiary companies 
or not, or only ones that are wholly owned.  Some of the dividing up may 
only be on analysts' estimates rather then published figures.

It is very difficult to be precise about the relative positioning of two 
companies if the measure you use gived very similar results.  It's easy to 
say that IBM is top of the league because it is substantially bigger than 
any other company, but other positions are harder to judge.

jb

Note: Sorry for continuing this rathole, but this one's gotten to me and I 
can't let it pass without rebuttal....

RE .77

Please don't compare a program written for a PC that does nothing but backups
and restores with a utility for an operating system.

If you really want to compare apples to apples, then use SLS on a VMS system
if you want to see how easy it can really be.

If you want a real challenge, try using MSDOS's backup utility. There's a real
piece of crap.

I have a 386SX PC at home and I'm the System Manager for many VMS systems. They
both have features that are in some ways better than the other. But if had to 
make a choice, it would be for VMS.

Bob.

    ref .-1
>I have a 386SX PC at home and I'm the System Manager for many VMS systems. They
>both have features that are in some ways better than the other. But if had to 
>make a choice, it would be for VMS.
    
    I agree VMS is much easier to use, but does AMIpro run on VMS?
    
    /nasser
    AMIpro is a windows based product, it is WYSWYG type editor, with a
    nice equation editor in it.
    

RE .82

Please don't compare an automobile imported for the lower middle class
that does nothing but provide cheap mileage for a limited life with a
full-featured american automobile intended for general family use.

If you really want to compare apples to apples, then use a fine German
or English import, not these cheap imitations-of-cars like the VW
and Datsuns.

If you want a real challenge, try using a VW on a long vacation trip.
There's a real piece of crap.

I have a 1972 Buick at home and I'm the driver for many other Detroit
cars. They both have features that are in some ways better than the other.
But if had to make a choice, it would be for the American automobile.

Greg.

.... and if they weren't supposed to be there, you have my condolences.

Bob.

    Seems to me that this note file as wandered off track.  Has anyone
    heard anymore on the layoffs?  When they are going to start, which
    departments are going to be hit, or if every department can expect to
    loose someone?
    

    Administration (part of the logistics organization) has announced that
    they will be doing layoffs, but no specifics.  We will be doing them
    before September according to the DVN broadcast we had recently.  The
    DVN was weeks ago, and no more specifics . . . 
    
    

re: .85, yes I forgot the ;-)s

And maybe didn't make it clear I was paraphrasing the US automobile
industry's attitude 10, 20, and 30 years ago.

But as the next reply pointed out, we digress ...

- greg

    Excuse me, TEMPE::MCAFOOS, but regarding backup programs (1948.82)...
    
    I'll take Norton Backup for Windows ANY DAY over VMS BACKUP.  Norton
    Backup has an easy, intuitive interface (gee, was that /LIST or /LOG I
    wanted?) and works just about flawlessly.  Don't even talk to me about
    TAR or DUMP, where SOP is to read back your tapes  to make sure they
    got written.
    
    Getting backup to work is, in my mind, pertinent to the discussion of
    DEC firings (they ain't layoffs because you can't be called back when
    things get better.)  If we had products that are as easy to use as
    Norton Backup, then maybe our comptitive condition would be as good as
    Microsoft, HP, Apple, or Symantec.

    Actually, VMS BACKUP doesn't deserve the bad publicity it gets. The
    functionality provided is very robust and efficient - provided you can
    understand the arcanae of its command line syntax.
    
    ...and there lies the rub. We do great utilities, but the UI is
    recognised even by VMS as crap and confusing crap at that. Sometime ago
    I suggested to all and sundry that the liberal use of JABBERWOCKY* to
    graft a useful UI onto VMS' utilities would pay back tenfold in terms of
    fewer calls asking how the hell to make it do what you want.
    
    The response wasn't encouraging. DEC are far better at setting fires,
    then fighting them, instead of preventing them from occurring in the
    first place.
    
    /andy
    
    * See the IE::JABBERWOCKY conference or read
    ASICS::SYS$PUBLIC:JABBERWOCKY.PS for more about the JABBERWOCKY UI.

	(rathole alert - if you want to stick to the topic, please skip)

	re .90:

>    Actually, VMS BACKUP doesn't deserve the bad publicity it gets. The
>    functionality provided is very robust and efficient - provided you can
>    understand the arcanae of its command line syntax.

	History is littered with the ruins and debris of things that
	worked very well, but weren't received by the market.

>    ...and there lies the rub. We do great utilities, but the UI is
>    recognised even by VMS as crap and confusing crap at that. Sometime ago
>    I suggested to all and sundry that the liberal use of JABBERWOCKY* to
>    graft a useful UI onto VMS' utilities would pay back tenfold in terms of
>    fewer calls asking how the hell to make it do what you want.

	Actually, I couldn't agree more with this. Jabberwocky is great
	technology and very suitable for this sort of application (see
	IE::JABBERWOCKY for more information) - but the way it's done is
	secondary. BACKUP, together with things like SYSMAN, LMF, SYSGEN,
	AUTOGEN, etc etc., could have been given good simple menu-driven
	user interfaces years ago by means of SMG, FMS or whatever. Some
	third parties made a living out of doing just that.

	We talk a good story about how easy our stuff is to use, but we
	don't work real hard at it. Too many of our engineers reckon it's
	their job to do "the hard stuff", after which "anyone can do the
	rest". It's kind of like selling do-it-yourself car or computer
	kits - some people enjoy building their own, but most will go and
	buy something ready to use, even if it isn't as good.

	/Tom  

>  <<< Note 1948.91 by COUNT0::WELSH "If you don't like change, teach Latin" >>>
>	We talk a good story about how easy our stuff is to use, but we
>	don't work real hard at it. Too many of our engineers reckon it's
>	their job to do "the hard stuff", after which "anyone can do the
>	rest". It's kind of like selling do-it-yourself car or computer
>	kits - some people enjoy building their own, but most will go and
>	buy something ready to use, even if it isn't as good.
    
    Don't blame the engineers. They do what they're told. Blame a whole
    series of Management decisions that are seemingly based in the '60's
    mentality that had us supplying components, not systems.
    
    These decisions are still being made, by the way. I look to Marketing
    (that's YOU, Tom!) to influence engineering product plans to produce
    complete products.
    
    
    	- andy

    Of course, in this arena, we have a problem. Marketing in DEC has a
    tendency to be easily led. If competitor X says their product will have
    feature Y and Z, over DEC's. Suddenly this is the *most* important
    criteria that Marketing has to provide to engineering, tha is until
    compititor B, comes up with feature C and D, and once again it's a race
    for the post. Product design, and product enhancement in DEC, run in
    too much of a point by point basis, with little of the architected long
    range analysis of what would be best. This often means that World
    beating "meta-technologies" like Jabberwocky, and Office-Filter, and so
    on, don't get a say, because too much effort is being put onto a dribs
    and drabs race to keep (or make) existing products competitive.
    
    q
    

    Andy,
    
     I have to disagree with you somewhat. Engineers should be informed as
    to what makes a good product, what the customers want, how well the
    competition software works, and why Digital stuff isn't accepted.
    
     And most of that comes from the engineer getting out of the cube and
    talking to customers.
    
    Gregg

    
    Re: .94
    
    > ... Engineers should be informed as
    >to what makes a good product, what the customers want, how well the
    >competition software works, and why Digital stuff isn't accepted.
    
    I doubt you'll get any argument from this statement, but the fact
    is that they aren't informed on those issues and most of the reason
    for that is because Digital does not provide an infrastructure that
    will support them getting it.
    
    > And most of that comes from the engineer getting out of the cube and
    >talking to customers.
    
    Yes, but that will only come when management values engineers doing
    that and makes schedule and budgetary provisions for it.  There is
    evidence that it is coming but not fast enough.
    
    Steve
    

    I would think if the Engineers demanded it en masse they'd get it.
    
     But I don't see that 

    Also, if the engineers REALLY want to know what custos liek they can
    always run PC software.

    If we could exit this RATHOLE for just a moment, perhaps a question
    pertinent to the original topic is in order.
    
    Does anyone have any new information about the original topic of this note ?
    
    
    Thanks,
    George :-)
    
    Ok, Rats, back in the hole...
    

.96>    I would think if the Engineers demanded it en masse they'd get it.
    
    Engineers en masse are unlikely to demand something that their
    management clearly does not favor.  Particularly now, when there is a
    significant fear that standing up for beliefs which are not already
    "politically correct" is a great way to get intimately familiar with
    details of the coming layoffs.
    
    That's one major part of why the current obsession with satisfying
    external (Wall Street) analysts' calls for reducing headcount strikes
    me as being a management epileptic fit.
    
    It destroys organizational function in several basic areas:
    	- employees are afraid to "do the right thing" if it might be
    	  politically incorrect or even merely controversial.
    	- performance is compromised by fear that merit will be less
    	  important than luck (in the interaction between current
    	  assignments and product strategy decisions) in determining 
    	  retention or termination.
    	- decisions at all levels are made not to benefit long term
    	  corporate competitive prospects but rather short term individual
    	  survival.
    (there are more, but I gotta go do productive work, on an assignment
    to a product with no future.)

    .94 Gregg, I guess all I can add to the existing replies is that people
    do what they are measured on. It's human nature. They are measured on
    what their management want them to do. It's called the salary
    continuation plan. At least for a while.....
    
    /andy

    
    re: .99
    
    Wow, a topic related reply.

    I just wanted to point out the fact that I had to read/scan/skip over 
    about 30 replies to get about 3 that is pertient to the subject matter.
    Maybe that's a sign that people have difficulties in following
    'directions'.
    
    PLEASE, don't go astray.  It is not fair to other participants.  Get
    yourself another topic (ie, start another one).
    
    Jane

    The most persistent rumor I'm hearing now is that the package 
    is 9 weeks + 2 weeks for every year 0 - 10. and so on...
    
    Anybody else hearing this one?
    
    Mark

    Yup ...

    Well 26 june has came and went, July 3 as well.  Any word on the next
    "window" for the "Boot"?  Our management has addmitted a reduction will
    occour in this quarter, thats it.

    We have been told that July 20th is the target date for 
    layoffs in our organization.
    
    Mark
    

    "Target" meaning that's when folks are notified, or that's when they're
    GONE ?
    
    Jerry 

    
    Here are the facts (as presented by upper management):
    
             9 wks base for everyone
            +2 wks for every year from 1 - 10
            +3 wks for every year from 11 - 18
            +health benefits (med & dental) to last commensurate with the
             above total
    
            52 wk max benefit
    
    Ken....

    what departments are being hit on the 20th?  
    

    
    "Target" means notified...gone by the end-o-the-week I suspect.
    
    Mark
    

    
    
    
     ANY BODY KNOW IF WERE GETTING HIT THIS TIME AROUND IN CALIFORNIA
    LOGISTICS.DISTURBUTION.
    

re Note 1948.114 by GLDDST::HURST_JO:

>                             -< Please don't shout! >-
  
        People are about to get fired (you may call them "layoffs" if
        you wish), and you're complaining about UPPERCASE!?

        Bob

    
    Collect the whole set! Trade them with your friends! They're
    fun, they're exciting, they're pure speculation...
    

    re.110 >as presented by upper management
    
    Which upper management, please? 

    Re .115 (Bob):
    
        >People are about to get fired (you may call them "layoffs" if
        >you wish), and you're complaining about UPPERCASE!?
        
    Small nit: there's a difference between getting fired and getting laid
    off.  Getting fired is a matter of either a failure to perform or
    performing some infraction of clearly established rules.  Firing is for
    cause.
    
    Getting laid off is a matter of reducing headcount.  Being laid off is
    not a matter of performance, necessarily, but of "cutting to the bone." 
    If the corporation has to cut headcount by some given amount, say, 20%,
    then one out of five peiople will be laid off, possibly irrespective of
    performance, merit, or (in Digital's case) seniority.  The reason for
    being caught in a layoff is that one happens to be in the wrong place
    at the wrong time; not for "cause."
    
    In many companies, layoffs may be seasonal.  When conditions get
    better, the people who were laid off get rehired.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Is there any truth to this rumor: That President Bush would like to
    see no more layoffs in Digital and that the US Govt would give half a
    billion worth of contracts to DEC towards that end ?!
     
    I say, can't we have President's elections every one year?

re .115 

I myself could be a candidate for 'rightsizing', I have been rightsized before,
it's tough to deal with, and shouting won't solve the problem, but hey if it
makes you feel good, have @ it. :-)

John

    The one common thread I have heard thus far from three distinct
    organizations: cut expenses by 20% (note that the figure is NOT a
    headcount percentage, but an expense figure).
    
    Anyone work for an organization which DOESN'T have a 20% expense cut as
    it's primary goal?
    
    -- Russ

    yep

    re: .117
    
    MY upper management. Let's see, my boss's boss's boss's boss got a
    memo stating the BOD's decision on the next package (i.e. the package 
    I described). 
    
    
    re: .121
    
    Me too. My VP, Bob Palmer, has committed to a 30% budget decrease!
    
    Ken....
    

     Received a mail this morning. Here's an extract...





This is an announcement from the Sophia Management Board.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

European management has decided that Valbonne must reduce its year-to-year
costs by about 20% between FY92 and FY93.  This is in line with the reductions
demanded of other European subsidiaries.

The Management Board met on 3 July to discuss site cost reductions.

We plan to move out of ETC1 during Q2 and out of ETC2 during Q3 of FY93.



      This basically means, that one of the two facilities here in Valbonne
      will be emptied, and will require headcount reduction, as the other
      building can't host all the people.

      -pELLE
     

    re: .119
    
>    Is there any truth to this rumor: That President Bush would like to
>    see no more layoffs in Digital and that the US Govt would give half a
>    billion worth of contracts to DEC towards that end ?!
    
    According to Nikki Richardson, the official Digital rumor buster,
    NO!
    
    A small article discussing this rumor appeard in the Boston Globe
    this morning (p. 13).  After the rumor was leaked to a radio station
    yesterday, Richardson stated, "The memo they have is pure rumor.  It is
    not official and has nothing to do with reality.  We're backtracking
    through the system now to find out who wrote it."
    
    Then again, the same article reports she stated that no staff reduction
    plans have been formalized.  In light of the reply to this topic where
    someone reported his management chain had received a memo from the BOD
    detailing the transition package, one has to wonder how much of what
    Ms. Richardson said is truth and how much is a game of semantics?
    

    re .119
    
    This was reported on WEVO the NPR (National Public Radio) station in
    NH.  The report was based on a mail message within DEC from someone who
    was speculating on the company's future.  The memo was leaked and
    reported as having come from a high level manager.  The memo was not
    official and WEVO did not research their story beforing airing it. 
    They even sent it out over the AP wire.  
    
    I can't say whether or not Digital received a DARPA contract or not.  I
    surely have a hard time believing it was a political decision if it did
    happen.  I do know that the company is up in arms over the leak and the
    broadcasting of a speculative memo from an employee.  I don't think
    we've heard the end of this.
    
    Marv
    

    	By the way, being "laid off" used to mean that you would
    potentially be hired back when the situation improved. Digital has no
    intention of hiring these people back any time soon. That's why some
    people have referred to this as mass firing versus a layoff.
    	We've been given a few additonal details on this round which I
    haven't seen here in this note. The "target" date for us to be notified
    is the 27th/28th of July. I say "target" because that assumes that a
    lot of things come together by that date to make it happen (i.e. the
    "package" is finalized, which we heard it wasn't yet, the list of
    people is blessed by Personnel for such things as EEO, etc.). Given
    that, people being "let go" will be notified on that Monday or Tuesday.
    They will be paid for that week but can leave anytime that week (I'm
    sure there will be cases where people will be escorted out or asked to
    leave right away). Besides being paid for that week, people will
    receive 9 weeks additional pay plus vacation pay. If you sign the
    termination agreement, then you will receive the package in addition to
    this. If you don't sign the agreement, then you won't receive the
    package. The target downsizing in this organization is 5-15% (the final
    budget number has not be approved).

    I doubt if Bush cares about DEC at all.

    I doubt he knows we exist. Or if he does I'm sure he has a
    watch that we made.
    
    Jim C.
    
    

    But the White House uses ALL-IN-1!

    The country is doomed ....

    
    
    
         Still looking for any information concerning California reduction
    plans in Disturbution.

    
    re: .99  
     	
    	Do you have any more information regarding the DVN to all Admin.
    	staff on 7/16?
    

    The latest we hear is June 20th.  The package will be like the last. 
    How many people will get the "boot" is anybodys guess?  Another is
    supposed to be coming in December that is even bigger!! Merry Xmas!!

    re .134
    
    Maybe we'd be doing better if everybody was at least in the same month.

    
    If anyone would like a copy of the memo refered to as the memo
    that was leaked to the news media, I recently received it (it 
    does mention DARPA) and will send it on request.
    
    This is a disclaimer as I have no definitive source with which
    to verify the validity of this memo.  I also do not feel free to
    disclose who wrote it or distributed it to me.  
    
    If the moderator feels this falls outside of the parameters of
    this file or political expediency, he is of course free to 
    delete this. 
    
    

The Globe article quotes Nicole Richardson as saying, "We're backtracking
through the system now to find out who wrote it."  Is it really possible
to find out the origin of a mail message?

    re: .137
    
    You bet.

    Re .134:
    
    >The latest we hear is June 20th. ...
    
    <Whew!>  We're all safe, then. ;-)
    
    Re .135 (Mike):
    
    >Maybe we'd be doing better if everybody was at least in the same month.
    
    Party-pooper! :-D
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    re: .138
    
    Up to a point. But there are loads of ways to send essentially
    untraceable mail.
    
    

    re: .134
    
    June or July 20th?  June is over or are people going to be notified
    that they were transitioned last month effective as of this month?
    
    DAR

re: .139, David

>    It's really getting hard to ignore the current situation at Dec and
>    have a normal day at work. Grim times indeed.

Amen.

-Jack

    
    re: .142
    
    Julio.

    So sorry, July!! is the correct month!!

    The copy of the memo I saw had all forwards deleted...how clever!
    
    -anonymous
    

    I once posted headcount figures here that were published in a
    world-readable file; that file no longer contains that information
    (because my posting was forwarded outside the company); if the author of 
    the memo were revealed, perhaps they too would disappear...
    
    /dlw

    What is DARPA?

    Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, or something like that.

>>  What is DARPA?

DARPA = Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (I think it's Agency)

Jim

Re: Search for the source of the hoax memo

It's kind of interesting. A few years back there was a leak to the Globe
regarding something or other and the source of the original memo was
quite clearly identified in the memo that had been widely circulated.
Corporate security launched a global search to try and identify only who
leaked it to the globe. Nobody cared too much about where it came from.

This time, with the rumor, nobody seems to care much who leaked it, but
rather only where it originated.

-Jack

Re: .118

While this view the difference between being fired and laid off is commonly
held, it can also be argued that any involuntary termination of employment 
is firing.

jb

    Re .152 (Jeremy):

    Well, if we remove the term  "layoff" from our vocabulary, every
    involuntary termination is a firing, but that evades the issue.  More
    to the point, _this_ layoff's different from the standard industry
    layoff, which I clarified to someone offline.

    So, to be more specific:

    A layoff is when a company reduces its personnel count as a matter of 
    accounting and cash balances rather than for cause, such as poor
    performance, insubordination, intoxication on premises, and the like. 
    Some industries that have seasonal work (e.g. the construction
    industry) routinely have layoffs.

    However:

    Most layoffs are structured so that when jobs open up, folk are
    immediately rehirable.  In Digital's case, after the mandatory 9 weeks,
    Digital employees are offered a package, whereby if they sign it, says
    they agree not to be rehired by Digital for a set time period (a year? 
    two?).  That is, after a Digital employee is laid off, he or she is
    bought off.

    There is a more generic term than the trendy "downsizing," "right-sizing," 
    or Digital's "involuntary methodology."  It's called "Reduction In
    Forces," or "RIF."   That's what's going on here.

    Steve Kallis, Jr.

Another significant difference regarding being "fired" for cause (at least
in most states), is that it doesn't entitle you to any unemployment benefits.
It also probably doesn't entitle you to any severence benefits and quite
likely leaves you with less than acceptable references.

-Jack

	Looking at my Little English Dictionary,

	Layoff is "discharge temporarily owing to shortage of work"

	Fire is "dismiss (employee)"

	Until I looked in this conference, I'd had only heard of the word layoff
	used with temporary situations.

	Heather

    Re .155 m(Heather):

        >Until I looked in this conference, I'd had only heard of the word layoff
	>used with temporary situations.
        
    _If_, after the mandatory 9 weeks, a Digital Employee does _not_ accept
    the offered package and sign the waiver, then he or she is eligible for
    immediate rehiring if the jobs open up again.  As I noted a few
    replies ago, with the proffered package, first Digital employees are
    laid off, then they're bought off.

    Oddly, the employees with the most incentive to take the package are
    those who've been around the longest (the "Old DECcies").   If I were
    an employee with only a few years' service, I'd possibly forego the
    package if I believed things would turn around soon and there'd be
    openings.  Personally, if I am going to be involuntarily methodologized,  
    I'd be offered the max (it only goes up to 18 years in service,
    according to unofficial accounts, and I've been here a half-dozen-plus
    years longer than that).  Philosophically, it's kinda odd that the
    mechanism is set up so that finances encourage the most loyal employees
    to minimize their chances of returning to Digital.

    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    re: .156
    
>    _If_, after the mandatory 9 weeks, a Digital Employee does _not_ accept
>    the offered package and sign the waiver, then he or she is eligible for
>    immediate rehiring if the jobs open up again.
    
    Eligible, yes.  But that doesn't mean they'd actually be considered
    for any position which might become available.  I have to wonder
    whether people who have been RIFed will have to jump through the same
    hoops as those who left voluntarily in order to get rehired
    (justification, VP signatures, etc.)?
    

    re:.157
    
    Of course it will be easier to get people rehired.  With increasing the
    number of VP's it should be easier to get a signature!

    Re .158:
    
    Or be rehired as a VP. ;-)
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    	We received a little more information yesterday. The "package" is
    the same as the one stated quite a few replies back...2 weeks for each
    year up to 10 years of service and 3 weeks per year for 11+ years of
    service with a max of 52 weeks. Budgets are being finalized. We have a
    number to use in our group.
    	Groups have to put together their lists and have them blessed by
    Personnel. They're expecting a bottleneck there. So the layoffs will
    end up being staggered slightly from group to group.

    
.160>  ...Personnel. They're expecting a bottleneck there...
    
    Well, it's good to see there still a few things you can count on for
    the long haul.
    

    Has anyone heard anything definate yet on the package as to it being
    voluntary or involuntary?   Also if one volunteered, would that make
    them exempt from drawing unemployment?
    
    /Dan

>    Has anyone heard anything definate yet on the package as to it being
    
    As definite as can be said:  [1] No you cannot volunteer, the company
    wants to control what skills they keep.  [2] Unemployment laws vary
    from state to state (as well as with the rate of unemployment in your
    state vs. the national average vs. the latest national laws) but I
    believe that in NH you cannot collect unemployment for the duration of
    the time you are being bought off.  That is, minimum 9 weeks, maximum 
    1 year, whatever your package amounts to.
    
      John

    Re .162 (Dan):
    
    The word seems to be that the deal is involuntary.
    
    Now be aware: if one takes whatever package is offered (cash), then
    that person is ineligible for unemployment until that package has run
    its course (thus, since the maximum is 52 weeks, one would be ineligible 
    for unemployment insurance for a year, if one got the maximum). 
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Not always so .... I think it varies by state (as was suggested in
    earlier replies).  I know here in SC, you can leave straight from getting
    tapped and go to the Unemployment Office and start collecting ...
    
    Jerry

    re: .162
    
    The way it was explained to me was that for nine weeks you would be
    paid just like a regular employee and would be "on" the payroll.  About
    the eighth week you would be given a lump sum settlement which would be
    accrued vacation time etc.  Then at the end of the nine weeks you sign
    the paper and they give you your severence, and package.  At the end of
    the nine weeks therefore you are technically unemployed and should be
    eligible for unemployment compensation.  the fact that DEC paid you
    twenty or fifty-two weeks pay one week would not disqualify you for
    unemployment compensation.
    
    Dave

    THE PEOPLE IN CALIFORNIA WHO GOT THE LAST "PACKAGE" WERE ABLE TO
    COLLECT UNEMPLOYMENT AFTER THE NINE WEEKS, NO MATTER HOW MUCH THE REST
    OF THE SEVERENCE WAS.

    I heard that people in NH were informed today that they were out,
    and that they were happy about their "package."
    
    Anyone out there in ZKO, TTB, MKO, etc. got any word on this?
    
    Inquiring minds want to know...
    
    

   I called a friend of mine who works with people wishing to avoid
   bankrupcy and asked her about when I would be able to collect
   unemployment in Ohio.  Her response was sort of like this.
   
   Normally, Ohio would insist you not collect until the number of weeks
   equivalent to your severance.  However, her buddies at the State
   Unemployment Office have told her that they are so swamped that they
   no longer check for that kind of stuff.  Confirmation of termination
   is all they want.
   
   So, in Ohio, because the system can't handle the number of
   unemployeed during our economic recovery, you can probably get on
   right away.

    re:.169
    
    I know of someone that was given the package in OHIO and were first
    told that they could not get unemployment until the package (# of total
    weeks) ran out.  She went to an arbitrator and had that decision
    reversed and she was give back wages for the weeks she missed. I
    have not talked to her in awhile, but she was happy about the outcome.
    
    MMoore

    Does anyone know if we will be given pay for partial years of service?
    For instance, if I've been here for almost 9 years, would I get paid
    for the time up to when I leave, or for 8 years and the 9th year
    nothing?
    
    Mary
    

    HYPOTHETICAL ???????

    What if a person volunteered for the first package and was told no
    because the job code was excluded.
    Then volunteered for the second package and see above.
    then was too young and ugly for SERP. 8*)

    BUT**** this time around gets the old tap on the shoulder?? 

    Since the first package would have given this person X number of 
    weeks pay and the second Package would have given said person X-(n) 
    weeks pay and this package would most likely give said person X-(n+32)
    weeks pay ---- would this person have any recourse in trying to get 
    the missing weeks over the 52 max that seems to be what this package will
    be?

    re: .171
    
    Other parts of the personnel system, e.g. pensions, count any part of a
    year as a full year. In your example if you worked 8.x years at
    Digital, you would be credited with 9.  I'm not sure how this works,
    but I had assumed it used a similar algorithm.
    
    Thorgan

    Some of us here were offered a voluntary package in the second round.
    
    There was a limit on the #s from some tech groups, which was to be
    handled on a 'first come' basis.  Some were specifically excluded
    from volunteering...mwr

    A friend of mine who got the package in April 91 said that his lump sum
    was computed to year and week.
    

    Another question...
    If one gets the package and is paid and is "on the books " for the
    first 9 weeks, does vacation time still accrue during that 9 weeks?
    
    Steve M.

    another question that could be important... what are the tax
    implications of receiving an extra lump sum payment - assuming that
    that sum is significant, that would likely push you into a higher tax
    bracket, and you'd be hit for a heavy income tax burden just at the
    time you need it least.
    
    

    re .180
    
    You've got it.  Its all earned income per the IRS.  If it shoves you
    into the higher tax bracket, the only recourse is to average (and that
    only works if you're over 50 these days).
    
    /rab

    Not to mention the impact it has on applying for tuition aid for
    college kids. The tuition assistance is based primarily on the most
    recent year's income. So, if somebody is laid off say August 1, with
    maximum seniority, the bottom line for estimating aid need would show
    income for 1992 of 7 months salary Jan through July + 12 months salarly
    severance pay.
    
    				herb

    RE: .173
    
    Well, this is just my opinion but, I don't think we'd be missing much
    over the 52 weeks.  We've been able to continue working here all this
    time.  I know people who took the first package and still haven't found
    work.  Maybe some of you don't consider it a plus to have been working
    here while others were "bought out" but after 19 years I do.
    
    Marie

    Vacation time does accumulate during the magical 9 week period.
    
    RE:  Taxes ...
    DEC's doing you a favor by giving you this lump of money, not every
    company does that.  Sure you'll have to pay the taxes, but think of it
    this way - you didn't have to work a second to get it !  So, your $/hr
    figure may vary, but I bet it'll be pretty healthly.  Pay the taxes,
    carry on with your life ... 8^)
    
    Jerry

    Re: .179 Does vacation accrue during the 9 weeks
    
    I've been told by friends who received earlier packages
    that vacation time does accrue during the 9 week base.
    They received weekly paychecks for 9 weeks, then got their
    "lump".
    
    -Marc

Do all years of service count or just continuous service (since last rehire)?

    The lump some amount is based on your normal weekly pay.  IN other
    words if after taxes you cleared 300 dollars and you were TFSO'd with a
    total of 40 weeks pay, then 40 X 300 = 12,000 dollars after taxes.  I
    do believe that prior to the lump sum you are given the opportunity to
    change your deductions so that either more or less may be taken out. 
    Less could definately get you in trouble at tax time, more would help
    C.Y.A.  
      
    One should sit down before the lump some is recieved and calculate
    where this lump some would put them at year end.  An accountant may be
    of help and may be able to suggest ways of deferring some of the taxes,
    such as an IRA, etc. 
    
    Not only does your vacation continue to accrue until the end of 9
    weeks, thus adding to the # of dollars at the lump payment but you are
    also paid for both personal & choice Holidays if you have not already
    taken them.
    
    This may vary from state to state, but in Colorado, my understanding is
    that if you get a lump sum of 52 + weeks, then you are uneligible for 
    unemployment after that 52 weeks run out.  So you are in fact better
    off if you recieve less than 52 weeks.  Here you must wait until that
    time span runs out to apply.
    
    /Dan

    RE: .186 = < Continuous service or all service? >-
    
    I had a friend who got the package last year in June. She had worked
    for DEC a total of 19 years, but had quit and been hired back on with
    12 years of continuous service.  She was paid based on the 12 years,
    not the 19.
    
    /Dan
    

re: .188  Bummer!

According to a copy of a mail message I just received, here's the way layoffs
will be handled in VMS development:


    - Layoffs are based on three factors, in this order: (1) last performance
      review rating, (2) current skill set vis-a-vis skills needed by projects,
      and (3) seniority (years with the company).  The latter item will really
      only be used to break a "tie".

    - An individual that has been selected for layoffs will be called into a
      meeting with his/her boss on Monday, July 27th or August 3rd and told.
      That individual has until the end of the week (Friday at 5:00 p.m.) to
      have a signed offer in-hand, with a start date of the following Monday,
      otherwise they'll be given the package (TFSO).  The individual is not
      obliged to come into work that week, except to remove their personal
      belongings.  All computer accounts owned by the individual will have
      their privileges removed, however the account will remain active for
      the week, to allow people to send "goodbye" Mail, etc.

    - The TFSO is one-week less generous than past TFSO's.  It's 9 weeks pay,
      plus 2 weeks for every year for those between 2 and 10 years, and three
      weeks for every year for those over 10.  The chart looks something like
      this:

            Years   TFSO (weeks)    Years   TFSO (weeks)
            =====   ====            =====   ====
             0-2      9                8     25
               1     11                9     27
               2     13               10     29
               3     15               11     32
               4     17               12     35
               5     19               13     38
               6     21               14     41
               7     23               15     44

The ZKO parking lot will be a lot emptier in August ...

Talking to someone who's done taxes for a few recipients of the last couple of
TFSOs, I hear that:

If DEC withholds taxes from the lump sum, then they underwithhold.  That means
that come tax filing time, you can COUNT on having to pay a whole bunch in 
addition to what's already been withheld.  Major scale bummer if you've already
spent all your TFSO money and you're still out of work, 'cause the IRS just
wants their money, period.

And, as previously noted, yes, you get knocked into a higher tax bracket if the
lump sum comes late in the year.  

It would seem to me to be very sane to check with a tax consultant immediately
upon getting the package.  Getting a huge tax bill surprise next year if/when
you're out of work isn't something you want to go through.

    Isn't it interesting that the package decreases just as it hits the
    administrative, distributions, and other areas than Sales.  Just a
    thought . . .

    RE: -187
    
    Would this include or not include any other deductions that you
    may have taken out of your pay, ex. DCU, dep ins, stock, etc.?
    Or would I take the Netpay and add the amount of deductions together
    and that would be the amount used to calculate? 
    

    There is a lot of detail about the content, handling, tax consquences,
    etc. of the lump sum 'severance' in-
    
    	NOTED::SERP
    
    I do not have specific note numbers, but there are a number of
    'bulletins' from Personnel that answer most conceivable questions.
    
    	-Barry_who_is_too_young-
    

    re:.192
    
    I'm not absolutely sure on all accounts. With respect to dependent
    insurance, etc, since this coverage is allowed to continue for the
    duration equal to the number of weeks recieved, unless you decide not
    to continue the insurance, it would still be taken out.  
    
    I believe the Stock deductions probably would immediately stop, and you
    wouild probably also recieve a lump reimbersement from previous
    deposits into the stock plan.
    
    As for deductions going to the DCU, I don't know how that would be
    handled.  If they are merely routine deposits, then really it shouldn't
    matter if it gets deposited or comes in one check.   If it is for
    payments on a loan, then I would think it would be your option.  The
    DCU can't demand full payment, they have to take their chances just
    like any other lending institution.
    
    If anyone can add any additional comments or have knowledge of how
    these items might be handled, please do add you input.
    
    /Dan
    

    
    So what is the total number of employees that will be let go in FY93?
    Has that been announced anywhere?.  
    
    Based on what I have heard thru the vine, it will dwarf all layoffs
    this year by major corp. such as Hughes, Unocal etc. and exceed or
    prior reduction(s).
    
    
    
    

    	I heard that there's a debate at the top about whether to decrease
    headcount in one swell foop or in two or more steps, with an end target
    in both cases of reducing the total DEC population to 80-90k people. So
    we're still hearing total numbers around 15,000. Here in Spitbrook, the
    total number is supposed to be around 300.

    RE: .196
    
    	Lets get it over with once and for all, better now than later.
    
    /Dan

    On the tax issue, you may be eligible to be fined by the IRS if you
    under-withold. In other words, if your salary was $40K, and there was a
    payoff of $30K, and the standard witholding for the lump-sum would
    cover that amount. However, with your total salary for the year now
    being $70K, you would probably be short at least a few $K on your
    federal taxes when filing next year. If that is the case, you can be
    fined for not having an adequate amount witheld and placed into the
    IRS' hands for "safe keeping." So just be aware that the money will do
    you more good if you roughly guess how much you'd be paying in addition
    to what's been witheld, and depositing that amount needed to bring your
    status as "close" to what you'll be paying for the year 1992.
    
    My Dad got a $80K early retirement "bump" on 30-Dec-1991, and this
    placed him at about $135K salary for the year. That caused him to be in
    the top tax bracket, and so his taxes were under-witheld. His
    accountant advised him that even though this was the next to the last
    day of 1991, it still counted and satisfied the IRS' tests for
    under-witholding. Needless to say, he had been about $10K short when it
    came time to file the return, and so far, he's not heard from the IRS.
    His accountant told him that he probably should have guesstimated the
    difference and mailed it in early in January.
    
    

    re 197
    
    Until the company starts reporting profits and acceptable profits at
    that, I'm sure they will keep restructuring and letting people go each
    quarter.
    
    That's the way it's been at Unisys for years, and they are now making
    money. But, according to a friend they are still undergoing
    consolidations in all areas and layoffs.
    
    Job security in any form is dead in the U.S.
    
    
    

re
<Lets get it over with once and for all, better now than later.>
    
Once and for all does not exist for any enterprise except in the case of
closing its doors forever.

Digital is not competitive with other companies in the business. Our
earnings per employee ratio has been abyssmal for the 20 years I have been
a digital employee.  This earnings per employee ratio was always acceptable
(indeed largely ignored) as long as Digital was growing revenue commensurately. 
But, more recently, we have been growing employees at a greater sustained
rate than the growth in revenue. Now, all of a sudden the revenue per
employee becomes much more important.
We have to cut our employees to have better revenue. The board is convinced
that we cannot grow revenue fast enough to cover the current employee
population. 
If the cut turns out not to be big enough we will have to cut some more. If
that cut turns ... It wouldn't surprise me if the Board of Directors
"micro-manages" this on a quarter for quarter basis.

    In my opinion they should give the lump sum total amount as soon as
    they tell an employee being TFSO'd.  This gives the employee additional
    amount to start a small business of their own thus contributing to
    the economy, and not try to collect unemployment.
    
    I for one have decided to start my own business if it happens to me.
    The business I am looking at certainly requires that additional
    9 weeks lump sum (if given).  It may be a small ammount but it
    certainly would help someone to stand on their own feet.
    
    I wonder how many people are looking forward to get the package to
    start on their own.
    
    Vijay.

re: Job security in any form is dead in the U.S.
    

Tell that to the bankrupcy lawyers.

   Will the Long-Term Disability deduction increase after this round of
layoffs?  As I recall, this program is "Employee Pay-All". With fewer 
employees and a constant to increasing LTD pool the math is not reassuring.

   Will the 401K plan suffer? Isn't there something about participation 
levels? As plan participants leave, I imagine the remaining mix of people
may affect this plan.

   What of medical, dental, insurance plans? Will the shrinking pool of
employees drive the cost higher?

    
>re: Job security in any form is dead in the U.S.
    
    Th at's why there are funeral directors.

    Anyone else see the article in WJS recently about Dell Computer CEO
    as well as 10 or so top executives voluntarily taking a 5% pay cut.
    Analysts suggest the value in doing this is an increase in employee
    moral...(top managment is really trying to be sincere in helping
    everyone keep there jobs etc. etc.).
    Hmmmm,I thought I think my moral would increase also. Any reason why
    Digital hasn't tried this? God knows the moral in this company could
    use a boosting.

    HAS ANYONE HEARD ABOUT THE NINE (9) WEEK NOTICE BEING REDUCED TO FOUR
    (4) WEEKS BY THE FED?? AND IF SO WHEN DOES IT START??

I think the morals at this company are relatively high.  I've worked at
companies where there was hanky-panky going on at all levels.

Oh, you mean *morale*.

    TAX RESPONSE:
    	Lump sum tax payment w/ Pkg should be OK to avoid IRS interest &
    penalty.  Form 2210 gives exception as long as you pay = to or > prior
    year.  However, you still owe the total tax liability by April 15th.
    	Any other tax questions, I know a good tax specialist.
    
    Bob

    Re .206:
    
    Please don't shout.
    
    I believe that for a widespread layoff, the 9-week noticen is necessary
    to satisfy the requirements for older workers (all of those who, like
    me, are in their 50s).  Under any circumstances, I don't think "the
    Fed" could mandate a reduction to four weeks from nine by a private
    (if publicly held) company, unless there were some contractual
    agreement between the company and "the Fed."
    
    St eve Kallis,  Jr. 

    Re .205:
    
    The nine-week allowance is required by Massachusetts state law, which
    states that companies over a certain size must give 60 days' notice
    of impending layoffs.  This is why the nine-week allowance is not
    contingent on signing of the termination agreement, but that severance
    benefits in excess of nine weeks are.
    
    Re:  morale and executive salaries:
    
    Exacting a five percent reduction in officers' salaries at Digital
    wouldn't have a material impact on the company's financial position or 
    be able to save many jobs.  Digital's executive salaries aren't viewed
    as being in the obscenely generous category, as are the eight-figured
    annual packages being pulled down by the Jim Manzis, Paul Firemans, and
    Lee Iacoccas of the world.  Arrrrgh!!  Don't get me started on
    executive benefit packages.  Nothing, I say NOTHING that any company
    executive anywhere could do is worth 100 times or more the earnings of
    the lowest-paid full-time worker in the same organization.  Period.
    
    Mac.

    re 204
    
    Steve,
    
      ooops, I forgot those jobs that deal with other peoples misery.
      Actually I didn't forget, just wouldn't consider being a lawyer or 
      mortician. Brain surgeon...maybe.
    
    Dave
    

RE: .210

What the Dell executives did was to give a signal to the masses that they
too were going to feel the pain of THEIR mistakes.  People need to see
that their leaders understand what is going on; they need the symbolic
jesture that says you are not the only one being hurt.

Now what symbols are we seeing in Digital?  I know of one, VP Promotions!

GM made the same types of mistakes.  They asked the general employees to
take pay cuts while paying bonuses to management.  What a message that sent
to the rank and file!  (P.S. the bonuses were actually justified.  It was
the timing that was stupid.)

To parapharse KO, layoffs are management's failures.  What the employees
are looking for are the poeple who failed to take some of the pain. BTW,
since we are talking about TFSO4, does that mean that they have failed four 
times?

Inquiring minds want to know,
Lee G.

Forgot to mention in .212 one of the better symbolic moves.  Lee Iacocca
took only one dollar as salary during the worse year at Chrysler.  He then
made up for it in later years but it was the right message at that time.

Lee G.

    
    I believe the following to be correct, though incomplete:
    
      Under 5 years with DEC:  9 weeks plus 1 week for each year of
                               service.
    
      5-10 years with DEC:  20 weeks plus 2 weeks for each year of service.
    
      11+ years with DEC:  <mumblemumble> weeks plus 3 weeks for each year
                           with the company.
    
    I'll try to clarify later.
    
    

    re: .214
    This is radically different than anything we've heard or seen to date. 
    Is this someone's pipedream?
    
    Anyone else heard anything like this?  I'm sure, if true, it will get a
    lot of people's attention.

    While I wish .214 were true, it's not.  The correct details have been
    posted in earlier replies to this note.

    9 weeks paid weekly +
    a lump sum of:
       unused vacation time
       severance pay
           2 weeks/year for every year of service for the first 10 years +
           3 weeks/year for every year after the 10th

    The maximum total (including the first 9 weeks but excluding vacation)
    is 52 weeks.

    
    Told to me by someone who has to name the names to be tapped.
    
    This is strictly involuntary, based on 1) last 3 performance reviews and
    2) time with DEC.
                                              
    

    re: .217

    The selection details vary by organization.  For example, in VMS
    Engineering the criteria were the last two performance reviews,
    skills, and organizational needs.  Seniority was used as a tie-breaker.

re: .212, Lee G.

> To parapharse KO, layoffs are management's failures.

While I seem to recall that he once publicly espoused that view, that
paraphrase certainly couldn't have been derived from Ken's handwaving
discussion of "values" in the latest Management Memo.

If you get a chance to take a gander at it, it's of some interest
regarding this discussion.

-Jack

    Its seems I remenber hearing that the Management Memos could be accesed
    from any terminal. Is that true? How?

	Re .-1

	What's out ?

    re .220
    
    at the $, type VTX MM
    
    or...
    
    Once in VTX, type PF1 KP7 MM
    
    to get the Management Memo
    
    

... I can now comment on it compared with my paraphrase of KO.  My impress-
ion is that he is saying that when business changes, you may be forced to
reduce headcount that supported that business.  I have no problem with
this idea.  I view layoffs of x% of an organization as not to be the same
thing however.

What is the difference?  In the first case you look at the business and
decide what you need to support that business.  In the second case, you
look at the bottom line and say that expenses need to be cut.  The major
difference is the analysis of the BUSINESS!

In all of the discussions that I have read about what has been going on,
I have seen a lot of talk about how we have a ratio of employees to revenue
that is not close to the rest of the industry.  Maybe, just maybe, that is
a correct observation.  But it still does not address the business.  So
by saying that the ratio is the problem and layoffs will solve this problem
could be (and probably is) wrong.

To use the example from KO's MM statements, if you are in the large disk 
business and the customers stop buying them, it is not the number of people
that is the problem.  The problem is you are now in the wrong business.  In 
this case, you have only two choices, move people to other jobs or let them
go.  The analysis of the business says that your business justification 
for employing x people is not supported by the sales.

I actually think that the process that I heard Engineering is going through
is doing this.  From what I have read/heard, they are looking at the 
business of each product to see if correct resources are being applied.
Overall they think the numbers are 20% too high but they are going through
the process of looking at each project.  This says to me that they are using
a scalpel not an axe.

Digital started to do this correctly with things like COD.  But a 
mistake was made.  The place where the people were moved to was also cut.
The question that came up was why would people be moved to an area that is
overstaffed?  Because the business analysis was not done on both sides.

So, I do not think that KO's statements in MM were different than his
previous ones, just more direct.  I.E. you need to shift resources when the
business changes.  My spin on this is that it is a management failure to
not recognize the shift and plan accordingly which then causes layoffs to
be the only way to compensate for the lack of business.

Other opinions or comments?
Lee G.

    I don't disagree with Lee's comments, in fact I think he identified one
    of the main reasons we are upset, mismanagement of the entire process.
    But, there is another interpretation, more cynical, of course.
    
    KO has given up on getting the overhead out of Digital and has decided
    (in his own magnanimous way) to give us all a chance to succeed on our
    own while he allows the remaining overhead to bury Digital.  I call it
    "getting (the real) Digital out from under the overhead".
    
    /rab

    re /rab
    
    Considering what you've told us about your situation in PR, I can
    understand (somewhat) your cynical perspective.  That aside, I think
    your note is a bit insulting to those who will *not* be let go.  You are
    implying that those that stay will bury Digital while those that could
    save it are leaving.  Even though that's how I read you note, I wish to
    believe that that was not your intent.
    
    Management, IMHO, has indeed made many mistakes, particularly in the
    hiring frenzy in the late 80's.  However, that should not be taken to
    mean that all those hired during that time are dead-weight or are none
    performers.   "Overhead" has become a dirty word but a certain amount
    of overhead is necessary to operations and corporate stability.  
    
    I wish you luck but I also wish you would take it easy on the cynicism.
    
    Respectfully,
    
    Marv
    

    
    It was mentioned in a previous reply that vacation accrues during the
    9-week period.  Are those 9-weeks truely counted as time served with
    the company?  What I really want to know is: if a person's service
    anniversary with the company falls in the midst of the 9-weeks, would
    that count as another year's service and therefore another 2 weeks
    severance pay?
    
    Inquiring minds, etc...
    
    -- Paul

    re .227
    
    Not quite.  No one can save this company, not me and not you.  
    
    Not everyone who is still here after this round will be here to bury
    it.  The present generation of layoffs is not the last.  
    
    The model for the ultimate Digital is all managers, administrators, 
    and salesmen and no engineering or manufacturing.  Those expensive
    services will be contracted out when needed.  The whole work force has
    been classified as "excess".  The new business model makes anyone who
    works "outmoded".
    
still cynical,
    
    /rab

    RE: .228
    
    The answer is Yes, Your time with the company will be based on the
    end of the 9 weeks.  Although I've heard from some source that it is
    even prorated to partial year. 
    
    /Dan
    

    <Not quite.  No one can save this company, not me and not you.  
    
    I am struck with the struggle of tryin go understand why someone who
    believes that is still working for such a moribund -not to say
    malicious- monster 
    
    
    				herb

>    I am struck with the struggle of tryin go understand why someone who
>    believes that is still working for such a moribund -not to say
>    malicious- monster 

	One assumes he's doing it for the money. He works in Puerto Rico which
	is closing down. People who wait until Digital tells them they aren't
	needed anymore get a nice send off package. Those who leave early don't.

			Alfred

re: .225, Lee G.

> So, I do not think that KO's statements in MM were different than his
> previous ones, just more direct.  I.E. you need to shift resources when the
> business changes.  My spin on this is that it is a management failure to
> not recognize the shift and plan accordingly which then causes layoffs to
> be the only way to compensate for the lack of business.
> Other opinions or comments?

All of what you say is true, as is what Ken said in MM, but "it's not what he
says, but the way that he says it". He used to use words almost exactly like
"It's management's failure if people lose jobs", as you already noted. In MM he
does _NOT_ say that any longer - he now softens it to changes in the business
without necessarily placing any blame on anyone. As an example, as I recall,
he blames not even the soft economy, much less management. I agree with your
spin. In reading the article, I cannot conclude that Ken still does.

-Jack

    re: .227 and rab
    
    One thing that tends to make a person cynical is the fact that high
    placed managers who were screwed up businesses in the first place, seem
    to find other positions within the corporation doing "special projects"
    etc.  Some of these guys couldn't run a lemonaide stand let alone a
    business.  This isn't an indictment of all management, but when special
    consideration is shown for management failures the credibility of the
    entire management organization suffers.  IMO
    
    DAR

    RE .217
       In our last go around the two people tapped in our office were the
    most senior 19+ years, and a 15+ year employee.  So do we want to be
    long or short on time??

    re .233
    Thankyou:
    that explains the cynicism, I'm not sure it justifies the public
    display of it.
    
    
    				herb

RE:  <<< Note 1948.207 by NOTIME::SACKS "Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085" >>>

>I think the morals at this company are relatively high.  I've worked at
>companies where there was hanky-panky going on at all levels.
>
>Oh, you mean *morale*.

May be the low morals helps keep morale high!

:-)

    
    Career = something you love to do, all the time, not just for the
    money.
    
    Job = something you do for the money.
    
    Just something I read in a book last night.
    
    

.237:

I'm all for cutting people some slack if they want to be publically cynical.

I've seen some managers do some pretty cynical things, resulting in the loss
of jobs sometimes.  I've also seen grunts make cynical comments in notesfiles
such as this one.  The difference is that the management goes on to do more
cynical things, and the vocal notesfile cynic gets shouted down for his cynicism.

I think a far more interesting thing to do is wonder how and why a person gets
to be that cynical in the first place.  It's been my experience that people
don't get into that state of mind without having been through a lot of crap,
or have otherwise been given some very good reasons for having a bad attitude.

The trouble is that we always scold the people for having the bad attitude, and
never get upset at or do anything about the reasons why they got that attitude
in the first place.

To me, that's the real crime.

When they say that seniority will be used to break ties, which way does it
go?  The longer-time employee gets to stay or leave?  Assuming that the
more senior employee gets paid more (on average), draw your own conclusions.

-steve-

From what we were explained when TFSO3 came through the Support Center, if all
things were equal, the person with less time at the company would go over the
one with seniority.  So, if you had a 4 year employee with 2 or 3 4 ratings
and a 19 year employee with the same, the 4 year person would be let go.  This
means they kept a higher paid person who *possibly* has a longer track record
of low performance......

Dave

re: Employees with more seniority make bigger bucks

Possibly true in some instances, maybe even true in the simple majority
of cases, but certainly not in all.

-Jack

    
    Re:
    
>    One thing that tends to make a person cynical is the fact that high
>    placed managers who were screwed up businesses in the first place, seem
>    to find other positions within the corporation doing "special projects"
>    etc.  Some of these guys couldn't run a lemonaide stand let alone a
>    business.  This isn't an indictment of all management, but when special
>    consideration is shown for management failures the credibility of the
>    entire management organization suffers.  IMO
    
    Well Ken Olsen visited LKG today. I was lucky enough to be one of the
    three people to get to ask a question. I asked a two part question:
    
    	1, Given what appears to be your clear idea of how you'd like to
    	   see the company organized and run why do things get screwed up
    	   in the execution?
    
    	2, Is it anything to do with the endless list of new VPs we see
    	   announced on a weekly basis?
    
    A part of his answer was that he was not very happy with the old bunch
    of VPs and that those that wouldn't change lost responsibility. He then
    went on to effuseively praise Jim Lieu the new VP of PCs. He also said
    that the old crowd (he specially called them his friends) were very
    good at going out and talking to customers but that they no longer had
    responsibiluty for running things. He also made the point that
    "gentlemen don't announce when people lose a position/power". Not an
    exact quote but close enough.
    
    So I guess the answer to your note is that loyalty keeps failing VPs
    on and they're good as ambassadors but all power is stripped from them.
    Let's hope the new bunch do better than the old bunch.
    
    Dave

    After spending hours and hours (in the last couple of days) helping a
    customer stabilize a rather large network, I come in and read this.
    It's depressing as hell. And let's face it. Whether or not you go out
    the door has a lot to do with:
    
           1. "Good 'ol boy" anus protectus syndrome.
           2. Your PCness quotient.
    
    Bad reviews and years of service might count for something. However,
    these 2 things will do more to save your job than anything else. I
    realize that that occurs at most large companies. That does nothing to
    lessen how much it sickens me.
    
    I'm going home. I don't feel like working much anymore this weekend.
    
    Gene.

    
    	The "old boys" were quite successful in their time. A company
    growing at 30-40% for a number of years is not something to sneeze at,
    and yes, as our then competion proved, you can screw up a sure thing.
    
    	What Ken said was that while he is loyal to these people, which
    I believe to be a very admirable trait, he was not going to sacrifice
    the company by giving people who can't or won't change (for whatever
    reasons) lots of people to manage when there are up and coming
    entrepenure's to lead a more market driven business.
    
    	I buy 150% everything he had to say about setting a goal(a plan)
    and headlong pursuit of that goal. Profit is the name of the game
    and you get profits from building products that customers want & need.
    We (including KO) got in a mode where we thought we could force feed
    customers what we wanted. We lost touch and we're hurting. I'm frankly
    very glad we recognize the error and are trying to steer people into
    grabbing opportunity and go win some business.
    
    	For those people who need specific direction in their lives day in
    and day out, minute by minute, KO is not the guy to work for.  For
    those people who want to shoot anyone who makes a mistake, this is
    not the place to be.  (I can see shooting anyone who can't admit a
    mistake or allow someone to challenge their plan).
    
    	When I started in '75, I was told, and I believed this was a
    company where you make your own future, and you did that by making
    money for the company.  Somewhere in thye 80's, that changed and
    you succeeded by telling whatever lies some idiot wanted to hear,
    following which ever political windshift occured.  The customer
    got opted out, and we're dealing with the results.
    
    	bob

    re:.244
    >> Whole bunch of VP's.
    
    Why do we need a whole bunch of VP's ? Our groups upper level managment
    is all gone. We are doing fine (better) without them.

    
     Well, I now believe the individual who gave me the info I stated in
    .214 is full of little round horse ptooties.
    
     Having spoken with someone who is apparently to be downsized (what
    a verb...'to have been downsized' is the pluperfect, right?), he has
    been told the previous figure of 9 weeks, etc.
    
    

    
    I hope this question isn't repetative, but referring to the package
    numbers:  Base 9 wks,+ 2 wks for 1-10,+ 3 wks for 11-?, Max of 52 wks.
    
    Does anyone know if the 'max of 52 wks' includes the base 9 wks, or
    is in addition to the 9 wks?
    
    If the 52 wks includes the 9 wks, then the amt. of weeks stops increas-
    ing at 18 yrs.(53 wks, deduct 1 wk for 52);  Up to now, DEC has used
    a formula which added weeks up to 20 yrs. service, with no additional
    weeks after that.

    Yes, the 52 week maximum includes the initial 9 weeks.

Hello,
What is this agreement (re: previous replies) that "candidates"
are "asked" (you don't sign, no package) to sign?

What exactly are the conditions of the package?

If you are given the package, does that mean that you can't
start a business during the first 9 weeks or DEC will sue you?

Are you still am employee of DEC during those 9 weeks?

When is a person who gets the boot free to start his/her
own business and not have to worry about DEC attempting to sue?

Any opinions?

I was just wondering, we've all heard these layoff rumors, does anyone know 
who/how many have gotten "hit" so far (in this round) and where they're 
from?  The rumors I've heard is 300 SW Engineers from ZKO got hit already
either this week or last week, 12 people from GIA in AKO2 on Monday, and that 
AKO1 is supposed to get hit today.   

I think at least if we were informed of this stuff, our anxiety level would be
down a little.

    Just heard from a local radio station (WAAF, Worcester MA)
    that DEC lost $200M and will layoff around 20,000.
    
    No further details and it is a rock station so....
    
    Rick A

    re: -1
    I just heard on my way to lunch that the Boston Herald has an article
    about the $200m loss and a reduction of 20000 people.
    
    Also heard in the same conversation that at 7:25 this morning, WCVB
    in Boston (Ch. 5) announced something to the effect of a $750millon
    loss!!  I do not know which is correct, but have heard rumors in the
    past weeks of a $700m loss.
    
    Mary
    

    Unless WCVB changed the dollar figure between 6:15 and 7:30, the figure
    they tossed out was $200M.
    
    Edd

    I believe the local Boston radio/TV outlets are picking up on a
    Dow Jones story that came out Monday, exerpts of which were on p.B2
    of Tuesday's WSJ.  It mentioned two analysts predictions, one of
    which was a $200m operating loss.  The article mentioned a "10,000
    to 15000" in the coming year, although the 20,000 figure has been
    tossed around for a while now.  I'm pretty sure the Boston news
    outlets were just regurgitating a news story that really happened
    Monday (when tall ships and Dempocrats made better copy).

    Any word on the "AX" falling outside of the " East"??
    

    	Nothing has happened in ZKO yet. VMS engineering is targetting the
    27th of July and Stone's organization is targetting a week after that
    to let people know. There's a rumor about trying to consolidate the
    announcement for all of ZKO on a single date, but it's just rumor.

    
    no direct hits at this time in L.A., duck and cover time.
    
    

    TFSO 4 is an involuntary package....so we were told.
    

    Any word if the 20,000 will be TFSO'd out for this quarter or will the
    process be dragged out till December of 92 or longer? 
    
    I heard MOO was hit the other day.  

    Clarification would be appreciated if it is (semi-) known.
    
    Package is (involuntary): 
    
    	9 weeks (counts as time in service)
                
    	2 weeks * years between 2 - 10 
    		or 
    	2 weeks * years from 0 - 10
                
    	3 weeks * years > 10
    --------
       52 week maximum   (includes the 9 weeks)
    
    is this close?

    re: .263
    
    See reply .110 in this topic.
    
    Ken....

    
    re: .262
    
    Yes, MOO has been hit.  For those of us getting the TFSO
    package, this is our last week before the 9 week period 
    starts.  My whole department, Incoming Inspection, is 
    being eliminated; and some people in other departments
    are also getting the TFSO offer.  
    
    Anyone who gets TFSO'd and who is also eligible to retire
    (who is age 55 or over with at least 10 yrs. of service)
    gets TFSO plus Retirement.  (Not to be confused with the
    SERP package.)  One of the major advantages of being in
    this category is that your medical and dental benefits 
    won't eventually run out, as they do under TFSO.
    
    The TFSO package also gives you 6 month access to an out-
    reach service which will help you to either (1) job search
    (2) start a business or (3) become a consultant.  (This is
    the same service that was offered to the SERP retirees.)
    
    Virginia

re: .265
Could you give a bit more detail to the options of
starting your own business or consulting?
Is that consulting at DEC or consulting in general?
thanks

    Clearly, there are many people, that, unfortunately, are being
    involuntarily TFSO'd.  But does that mean that someone can not
    volunteer under any circumstances?
    
    PFD

I have made it clear to my managers that I am interested in being laid off the 
next time around.  This does not mean that I will be selected, but if they do 
have to let people from their group go, I would think they would choose me over
another person that does not want to be laid off.

sb

    re. 267
    
    The rule is:  There are no rules.  Some say it's you have no choice,
    others say you can volunteer.  I heard about a group at the Mill
    that was told we're reducing spending but not laying off, however,
    if you want to get laid off you can...
    
    

    In our group a couple of us have made it very clear that we would like
    to recieve "the package" and were told that it does not work that way
    and we would be the last to go or just fired with no package!! Go
    figure??

    Just off the wire.  Reprinted without permission.  :^)
    
    Subj:   FWD: Just off the news wire !!!
    
            NASHUA, N.H. (UPI) -- Digital Equipment Corp., the world's
    second largest computer maker, began the fiscal year with a massive
    round of layoffs, this time including software engineers from its
    Spitbrook Road, Nashua facility. "After two disappointing quarters
    and rising expenses, it was necessary to cut back in a number of areas,
    including engineering. This is the first time we've found it necessary
    to cut into software engineering. Roughly 300 people in the Spitbrook
    Road facility were affected," according to a company spokesperson.
    
    Immediately following the layoff announcement at Digital's Nashua
    site, an unexpected turmoil erupted. It is estimated that 300 or more
    enraged software engineers left the facility and began reeking havoc in
    the nearby downtown area. Gangs of nerds first started accosting people
    on the streets, tearing off their glasses and stomping on them, and 
    even stabbing them with their pencils. Other nerds, feeding off the 
    frenzy of the moment, began smashing the windows at Radio Shack and 
    looting calculators, scanners, CB radios, and miscellaneous electronic 
    equipment, throwing it at passing cars and pedestrians.
    
    Suddenly, a passing truck driver was dragged from his vehicle and
    nearly beaten to death with pocket protectors. "I've never seen
    anything like it. It looked like 'Escape From the Island of 
    Dr. Morreau.' I couldn't even tell the men from the women," said 
    one Nashua police officer. With traffic on Nashua's Daniel Webster 
    Highway at a standstill, herds of nerds weaved among the vehicles, 
    picking their noses and smearing snot on the windshields.
    
    Several hours after the start of the mayhem, huge piles of computer
    listings and VMS manuals were still burning out of control in the
    downtown area.
    
    Police have had some success luring engineers into awaiting paddywagons
    using Peking Raviolis as bait. However, at this time the violence 
    appears to be spreading into neighboring, affluent Hollis, where a path 
    of overturned Volvos and Saabs can be seen from the air.

    
    re: .272
    
    > herd of nerds
    
    BWHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHHHHHAHAHAHAH!!!
    
    
    thanks, best laff I've had in days
    
    
    Marc

    You can tell that an engineer wrote it by the spelling of "wreaking".

RE: .274
    Some people are so picky.
    
    >>   You can tell that an engineer wrote it by the spelling of "wreaking".
    
    You can tell that an engineer wrote it by the spelling of "wreaking."
    
    

    
    
    	THANK YOU!  THANK YOU!  THANK YOU!   I can't stop laughing!
    

    re:   note 272
    
              It brought tears to my eyes! :) I can almost believe it!
    
                                                     Mary

    Anybody hear any rumors about Olsen leaving DEC?  Someone
    here said they heard it on the radio.  Suppose to leave in
    October?  What does this mean?
    

    
    
    	I just heard on CNN news that Ken Olsen has announced his
    resignation effective October 1st.  Stock also rose 2 1/2 points.
    

    
    I thought Dan Quale wrote it...
    
    
    

    see 1992.*
    
    re .279: Your personal name is out of date, too!  :-)

    re: .265
    
    According to the TFSO package brochure describing the Drake
    Beam Morin, Inc.'s services, the Becoming a Consultant Work-
    shop [general consulting] teaches you how to "...best package
    yourself..how to solicit and nurture clients...[and how to]
    create an action plan [to get started]"
    
    The Start Your Own Business Workshop covers "...assessing your
    entrepreneurial potential...[preparing] a thorough business plan
    .... Legal issues, insurance, staffing, and marketing...."   It
    covers starting or buying a business or franchise.
    
    Virginia

    I just had a terrible thought:
    
    My understanding is that the biggest reason the severance packages have
    been as generous as they have is because of KO.  Now that he's
    announced his resignation, I wonder if the package might also be
    "downsized".
    
    I guess nothing's definite till it's definite.
    
    -- Paul

    re: .281
    
    It's hard to keep up with the changes!
    

    This layoff period should be okay since KO isn't going until October.
    So if we have to leave, let's hope it's now.
    

    
    			-<AGREED>-
    

    By the time anyone reads this it should be July 20, which was the
    date some other noters speculated as "TFSO-day".  So, has anyone 
    personally been notified yet?  I want to hear from people directly
    instead of everyone else speculating.  I certainly do not want, nor
    do I expect, to be TFSO'd.  But some of my associates/friends have
    asked their managers for the package, and none yet have been told they
    will or will not get it.  
    
    Let's get some replies in this topic from people who have been told
    directly.
    
    -JW-

    This *is* a rumors topic .... 8^)
    
    Jerry

If I were to be notified this morning that I was being TFSO'd, I think replying
to this topic would not be high on my agenda.

My $.02

Bob

    Ren, What DOES TFSO stand for ?
    
    We never had the acronym over in the UK...

    Unofficially,...
    Thanks For Shoving Off

    
    on a serious note:....
    
    	Something like TRANSITION FINANCIAL SUPPORT OPTION.
    
    In reality, the last two replies are closer to the true meaning :-)
    

    re TFSO:
    
    Other (earlier) jocular responses included --
    
    The Friggin' Show's Over  (approximately);  and
    
    Speculating that "excess" employees could be abducted by cooperating
    extraterrestrials,
    
    The Flying Saucer Option.
    
    Personally,  Tears Flowing, Sobs Openly might be a good employee reply;
    The Fatal Step Option for those convinced there's no life after
    Digital; Try Finding Steady Occupation, given the economy; and Take
    Five, Sitting Out for those comtemplating retirement.
    
    This Fantasy Should Obfuscate.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

Has anyone seen anything official on the latest TSFO package that has been
mentioned here?  I'm referring to the one that has 2 weeks for each year
from 1-10, and three for years 11-up.  I have not seen anything official.

I spoke with the personal manager yesterday and she told me that if a
person is laid off before September they would be getting the latest 
severance package.  I assumed it was TSFO 3 because I haven't seen anything 
official on the other package, and I didn't ask her.  She also mentioned
that after September they (corporate) were going to review the package.

Would anyone be willing to share what is happening in other plants currently 
laying off?

sb

    In regards to noters who are TFSO'd not considering replying as high on
    the list of priorities, that is probably true.  However, if someone
    does get notified, it would help the rest of us to be told what to
    watch out for.  For example, if we see a security guard coming our way,
    run down the hall in the oposite direction.  Or, if our system access
    is suddenly cut off, is this an indicator?  I should not be making
    light of a serious situation, but this note topic has gone down som
    many ratholes already, what's one more?
    
    -JW-

    re .296
    
    By the time you know about it, there will be no options for you. 
    Management of any employee issue is based on the premise that you
    eliminate the options before you make the announcement.   Relax, and
    enjoy what you can.
    
    Dick

.297>    Management of any employee issue is based on the premise that you
.297>    eliminate the options ...
    
    during a Gulf War briefing didn't Gen. Schwartzkopf describe the
    purpose of military force as being to eliminate the opponent's options?
    
    Interesting choice of terminology, eh?

    re: .295
    
    Air-Bourne Express.... 8^)
    

    Dick is right in .297. 
    
    Once you are informed, you are history unless you can save yourself
    under their rules.

    re: .295
    
    What do you consider "official".  The numbers you quoted are those
    given to VMS Engineering by our manager and personnel rep.

By "official" I mean a public announcement on LIVEWIRE, or an announcement
from a company spokes person, or information from personal.  In the past, 
we (BTO) always received information of package changes from personal. 
Personal would call each group together and explain the process in which a
person would be laid off, and explain what you would get for severance pay.  
Although this has not been done in BTO yet, it sounds like in some plants
personal has communicated this information.

Gee... maybe I'm expecting too much ... 8^)

    Electronic mail addressed to all or some of the employees is not
    "public".
    
    The contents of VAX Notes Conferences and VTX Infobases such as
    LIVEWIRE are not "public".
    
    They are private messages originating on private computers and
    transmitted over a private network.
    
    The "public" is everyone: customers, press, competition.  Unless it is
    labelled as intended for distribution to the press or it originates
    outside of Digital, nothing you are likely to read is "public".

re .302:

When someone at a group meeting I attended asked for the particulars of the
package, my boss suggested he ask his PSA.  If you want something official,
ask someone official.

    Out here we can't even get anyone to tell us anything.  Everyone keeps
    saying, we don't know anything.  Come on.  The managers know something,
    but we are never told.  I think that is the main reason for the morale
    being what it is here in the Southern Tier.  If we only knew when
    something was going to happen.  I don't really care what the package
    is, I'd just like to know when we are going to get tapped on the
    shoulder.

    Lately...., my "best" rumers come from my brother-in-law... who works
    at a local eating establishment..... after work, he "bellies up to the
    bar" someone he calls a "big wig at Digital"... Apparently this so
    called "big wig" spills his guts about anything/everything Digital is
    involved in..... 
    
    It is not to cool for such "big wigs" to talk of company issues in such
    a setting.... 'specially if they aren't even willing to talk about
    these same issues, to employees, in a working environment.
    
    This is what it has gotten down to folks...!
    
    Go to the local bar room...., you'll probably get the un-officially
    official scoop there.
    
    Later..!
    
    

    re: asking somebody official
    
    I was laid off yesterday.  I got a nice ream of paper explaining
    everything, including a lovely book done in DECwrite explaining
    the current TFSO package, which is the 9 week + 2 + 3 
    posted over and over again in here.
    
    Personnel knows.  Go ask them.
    

    RE: .305
    
     I hate to be negative (really, I do!) but morale in the "northern
    tier" isn't so hot either. It isn't visably obvious but in private
    conversations, just about everyone I have talked to is quite concerned
    because even if they are not personally TFSO'd, some of their
    co-workers will be and that means their jobs will change anyhow.
    
     As for getting information from managers, it IS very hard to believe
    they "don't know anything". It's probably more along the lines of they
    don't know specifics or even the things they do know have changed so
    many times they are confused too.
    
     I guess my question is this, which would tick you off more, not being
    told anything OR being told a different story each week??? 
    
     We all want to get this over with (at least the pending round) so
    we can move on with our lives. I have yet to hear even one person
    say they would rather string this out longer so they can have a job
    for another x number of weeks.
    
    fwiw...
    
    Glenn

    hear,hear .308

    From a manager's point of view, keep these things in mind.
    - pre-notification is absolutely forbidden. This is true for a variety
    of reasons. One thing I've seen happen is a change at the last minute,
    literally last minute. In this case a person to be TFSOed, was saved.
    - the amount of information between mgmt levels and the way it is
    phrased/communicated varies greatly. My boss is pretty open, many L2
    and L3 managers are not. So getting different stories will happen.
    - The impact of TFSO has varied between organizations and geographies
    - There is a lot of misinformation 'in the system' = confusion (not
    malice)

re Note 1948.308 by DELNI::SUMNER:

>     because even if they are not personally TFSO'd, some of their
>     co-workers will be and that means their jobs will change anyhow.
  
        This is especially true if there is a serious attempt to use
        skills and performance ratings as the basis of the decision
        (as I have been told from several sources is to be true in
        software engineering, at least).

        Terminating individuals on the basis of their individual
        skill sets and performance ratings means that individuals may
        be terminated from any projects and functions, regardless of
        the importance of those projects and functions to Digital.

        Since it is likely that certain projects and functions will
        be eliminated, either some "good" people will be terminated,
        or some not-so-"good" people will be kept, or there will a
        wholesale re-shuffling of the remaining "good" people among
        the remaining projects and functions.  I find the latter hard
        to believe, but it is implied by a lot of the talk.

        Bob

>       <<< Note 1948.303 by SDSVAX::SWEENEY "Rum, Romanism, Rebellion" >>>
>                               -< re: 1948.302 >-
    
>    The contents of VAX Notes Conferences and VTX Infobases such as
>    LIVEWIRE are not "public".
 
The general public can read both UK and US Livewire messages as these
VTX pages are easily accessible from the terminals in many Digital
foyers (at least such terminals exist in the UK, I dunno about the US).

The terminals are in prominent positions in the foyers, specifically set
up solely for the purpose of reading Livewire and there is 
no apparant restrictions on who can read them. The local taxi
driver could be reading them while they are waiting to collect 
someone for instance.

These terminals are running some program which prevents you accessing
the command line, or any other VTX pages.

Craig

	Re: .312

	Those terminals do not constitute "public knowledge" in the way that
the SEC defines it.

							-craig

    
    	My/Your manager may not know if he/she will have to TFSO anyone,
    	or if so how many, but there is no doubt in my mind that he/she
    	has a list of who will be the first, second, or third, when and 
    	if asked.  There is also no doubt in my mind that my/your boss's
    	boss is aware of that list, and has sorted/collated it from 
    	similiar lists provided by his/her other direct reports.
    
    	Now if he/she would be up-front and tell you/me that when/if the
    	phones rings you/I will be first, second, third, etc.....
    
        Think maybe....?  Nah!
    

         The 20th of July has came and went, monday will be the 27th, the
    next target date?  From what we read in "notes" most reductions are
    ongoing , a few a day mostly during the first part of the week.  Has
    anyone in a "field" position been terminated under this new round??
    Has anyone heard of when the field may satrt to be hit?

re .315:

There is apparently no one date for the whole company.  Many people have
already been shown the door in this round -- take a look at recent "help,
I need a job offer this week" notes in the JOBS notesfile.  David Stone
sent a memo to his people saying, in effect, that layoffs in his organization
have been delayed until the beginning of August.

    DEC is practicing "open heart surgery with a butter knife" again.
    
    Be done with it - start healing - move on.
    
    
    Jerry 

    >David Stone sent a memo to his people saying, in effect, that layoffs 
    >in his organization have been delayed until the beginning of August.
    
    The date WAS 8/3, but we hear it's being pushed out again...      

I heard Jack Smith's press conference at lunch. He stated that rumors
of large layoffs this month were not true, and there would be no large
layoffs in the next 7-8 days.  So I guess things are either on hold, or
waiting for August. 

Wall Street seems to have reacted unfavorably. At noon the stock was up
1/8 despite the financial numbers, by 1:00 is was down 1 point.

-Marc
    

    RE. .307
    
    WERE YOU ASKED TO SIGN THE AGREEMENT FORM TO GET YOUR SEVERANCE PAY
    BEYOND THE 9 WEEKS, WERE YOU ABLE TO KEEP A COPY. WAS THE SEVERANCE
    FORMULA WHAT HAS BEEN MENTIONED IN THESE NOTES 9, 2X1-10,3X11-20 MAX
    52?

    
    My wife was involuntarily severed Monday.  She was given two copies of
    the agreement to take home; they must be signed and returned before the
    9 weeks is over in order to get the additional n weeks, where n is
    computed from the formula that has appeared here in numerous places. 
    A pre-addressed envelope was included in the "reams of paperwork" for
    this purpose.
    
    Bill (for Jill)

    re: .319
    
>    I heard Jack Smith's press conference at lunch. He stated that rumors
>    of large layoffs this month were not true, and there would be no large
>    layoffs in the next 7-8 days.  
    
    From what I've seen lately, the above statement means that you should
    watch your back in 8-9 days.
    
    -joe tomkowitz

    Well, today is my last day as it is for quite a few people in
    Tewksbury.  SASE was cut by close to 100 people.  Seems like a fairly
    large "layoff" to me.
    
    Bye all!
    
    Marie

<mega forwards deleted>
    
    Yesterday, everyone in VMS, including myself, attended a meeting discussing
    layoffs that will occur in VMS developement.  Here's the deal:

    - Layoffs are based on three factors, in this order: (1) last performance
      review rating, (2) current skill set vis-a-vis skills needed by projects,
      and (3) seniority (years with the company).  The latter item will really
      only be used to break a "tie".

    - An individual that has been selected for layoffs will be called into a
      meeting with his/her boss on Monday, July 27th or August 3rd and told.
      That individual has until the end of the week (Friday at 5:00 p.m.) to
      have a signed offer in-hand, with a start date of the following Monday,
      otherwise they'll be given the package (TFSO).  The individual is not
      obliged to come into work that week, except to remove their personal
      belongings.  All computer accounts owned by the individual will have
      their privileges removed, however the account will remain active for
      the week, to allow people to send "goodbye" Mail, etc.

    - The TFSO is one-week less generous than past TFSO's.  It's 9 weeks pay,
      plus 2 weeks for every year for those between 2 and 10 years, and three
      weeks for every year for those over 10.  The chart looks something like
      this:

            Years   TFSO (weeks)    Years   TFSO (weeks)
            =====   ====            =====   ====
             0-2      9                8     25
               1     11                9     27
               2     13               10     29
               3     15               11     32
               4     17               12     35
               5     19               13     38
               6     21               14     41
               7     23               15     44

The ZKO parking lot will be a lot emptier in August ...

    RE .325
    
    Yeah, except now the date has been pushed back again for TNSG ... the
    memo I received didn't specify what the date is, except that it could
    be as late as August 24.  I understand the business reasons given for
    this delay, but it's very hard on people ... especially those of us who
    believe we're in a "high-risk" category.  Personally, I wish they'd
    just get it over with.
    
    ... Bob
    

Well, there have been layoffs today in VMS.  Or, so it appears.

re .326, .327:

VMS is not part of TNSG.

    re: .327
    
    Yes, VMS was notified of the terminations today.

    Does anyone know when "layoffs" are going to hit the field?  We keep
    hearing rumors but those dates have come and gone.
    

    Has anyone checked the open req's in VTX JOBS_US lately.  Looks like
    a lot of jobs have been pulled or frozen.  All the open req's at the
    CSC in Colorado Springs for support specialists have been pulled!

    Anyone feel like they just got pushed off a ship and thrown a rubber
    raft with a hole in it?

    I wish they would tell us something here in the field.  I haven't heard
    anything about when our date is, haven't received any memos from my
    manager or personnel, no meetings of any kind have been hels.  The 
    rumor mill said today was the day we would get hit.  As far as I know, 
    nothing happened.  
    
    Karen

RE:       <<< Note 1948.331 by JAYMES::DAVIDSON "Michael Davidson" >>>

    >Has anyone checked the open req's in VTX JOBS_US lately.  Looks like
    >a lot of jobs have been pulled or frozen.  All the open req's at the
    >CSC in Colorado Springs for support specialists have been pulled!

     That's true.  The CXO3 openings have been put on ice.  However, it 
     appears to be isolated, since postings at CXO1 & CXO2 are still 
     valid.  It seems to happen when a site is re-evaluating the work
     it is performing.  Req's have to be re-justified before being posted
     again.  I'm sure many more such re-evaluations will be taking place
     in the near future.

     The rumor (that all req's in the company have been yanked) does not
     appear to be true... at this time.

                                       Greg

    I work for Remote Sales Support (located at CSC-ALF); our DM has done
    an excellent job keeping us informed of our status.  I'll admit some
    of the news hasn't made us happy campers, but he is updating us almost
    once a week.
    
    We had reqs on Bob Hughes' desk when he SERP'd out.  We have been able
    to fill a few slots; but our DM's last memo spelled it out pretty
    clearly that we can probably kiss the remainder of those reqs bye bye.
    We are funded by the Sales organization so we were really holding our
    breaths last July and Oct.....we had open reqs then.  We lost the
    reqs, but none of our ICs.  If we escape that lightly again, the con-
    census seems to be that we'll accept the increased call load and not
    moan about the lost reqs.
    
    A lot of organizations haven't been able to get reqs approved for
    some time now, so I was surprised ours made it as far as they did.
    It doesn't seem unreasonable that increased workload or not, we're
    all going to have to wait for the dust to settle down.
    
    I know this is small comfort to those who have been given just a week
    to find something else :-(
    
    Karen
    	
    

    In yesterday's Baltimore Sun, in the Business Section, there was a
    short blurb reporting that Bob Palmer, the new DEC CEO, has no plans
    for massive layoffs once he takes over October 1st, as has been
    reported.  What does this mean?
    
    1) TFSO will be done, and 10,000 or more will be gone before he takes
    over
    
    2) Someone changed their mind, AGAIN
    
    3) The Sun is a bush league paper, and this should be taken with a grain
    of salt
    
    4) ?
    
    regards,
    
    Patrick

    What seems to have hit the press is a release of Palmer's remarks last
    week. I saw accounts of it in three Mass. papers yesterday and they all
    referred to a transcript of a videotaped speech to employees.
    
    John H.

    As Yoda suggested, "it matter not what said, it deed that count"........
    
    
    
    

    I think by "massive layoffs" they're referring to the 30K-50K numbers
    that some more hysterical segments of the news media have been
    throwing around.  I took Palmer's statement to mean those kinds
    of layoffs aren't going to happen.  I assume the layoffs that
    *are* going to happen are the same (pretty much) as have been
    in the planning stages for some time now.
    
    At least for this quarter....
    

    
    	Would it make more sense to have group layoff er downsizing rather
    than individual?  This would require some hard decisions be made that
    we are not going to produce this product or deliver this service or
    that it would be cheaper to outsource ...  As it is, 'we' don't have to
    make any _hard_ decisions, just little snips here and there while we
    continue to try to do everything.  
    
    Just a thought - we don't seem to be doing any better now than we did
    when we had 20,000 more employees.  We spent >$1.5B to get further
    behind.  Now we're going to repeat the error?
    
    JN
    

re .339:

Projects *are* being cancelled, but our management has said that they're not
going to simply TFSO the people on those projects.  Layoffs are supposed to
be based on performance and on skill sets.  Thus, a poor performer on a
continuing project may be replaced by a top performer on a cancelled project.

    
    re .335
    
    I pick answer #1.....
    
    

    If a project is cancelled, what are those people doing who were working
    on that project???  Sitting around doing nothing????  What a waste!!
    

    Re .339 (JN):
    
    >	Would it make more sense to have group layoff er downsizing rather
    >than individual?  ...
    
    That's how I got TFSOed.  My group was eliminated.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

>   Does anyone know when "layoffs" are going to hit the field?  We keep
>   hearing rumors but those dates have come and gone.
 
           It seems the same here in US Digital Services Logistics.  I
           presume we all work for Z, too.

    When are layoffs going to hit:  I was told (officially) last Monday
    that for Dave Stone's organization, the tap-on-the-shoulder date is
    August 24.

    I was also told (officially) a month or so ago that the people of
    interest are:

	1. For continuing projects, the bottom 10% (and possibly 20%)
	so they can be TFSOd

	2. For non-continuing (canceled) projects, the top 10% were of most
	interest so they can be saved and transferred to other projects.

    For those getting the package....

    I have just seen the documentation on the package because our group
    may be getting it within the next couple weeks.  There are questions
    from employees answered at the back of the documentation. One of the
    questions asked, "Can we buy equipment we have at home?".  The answer
    was YES, if it is expensed and in a certain category of equipment
    (PC, workstation, printer, etc).

    The problem is, it says to see your manager.....Mine doesn't know
    anything about it!  For those who have got the package, has anyone
    bought their systems at home (if you have any)?  What was the
    procedure?  How much?  Who sets the price of the equipment, etc, etc,
    
    

re:.342

Mostly, people move as quickly as possible to their new projects.  In
some cases, there may be some justifiable wrap up on the cancelled
project, or it
could theoretically be that they still deal with the next immediate
release, but
cancel work on future releases.

   Gary

    The key word in BP's speech is "redundnat".  If you're in a redundant
    job, watch out!  Now, we all know how many redundant jobs DEC has, so-
    yes, everyone should be worried.
    
    I see more consolidation and moving around over the coming year and do
    not expect to see a very large number of layoffs for a 1 time shot.  I
    expect we can all still be in the mode of high anxiety anticipating the
    arrival of Mr Pink Slip for a better portion of the next year (current
    FY, that is).
    
    The best we can do for the company and the customer may not be the best
    after all.  However, all these ill thoughts will not keep me at bay and
    downgrade my productivity; I will continue to strive to be the best I
    can be for my company and my customers.  (after I became a customer, I
    now believe I know what that means).
    
    Reg.

    re: equipment at home
    
    The first requirement is that the specific equipment have $0 book
    value.  The only eligible equipment on the list is:
    
    Personal Computers				$200 each
    	Rainbows
    	DECmate I, II, and III
    	PRO 350 and 380
    	VAXmate PC500
    	DECstation 2xx series
    
    Printers					$75 each
    	LA50
    	LA75
    	LA100
    
    Plotters					$75 each
    	LVP16
    
    Modems - older of series			$50 each
    
    Terminals					$50 each
    	VT1xx
    	VT2xx
    
    Limit: 2 per category; Personal Computers/Printers, Modems; Terminals
    
    (The punctuation in the "Limit" restriction above is exactly as it
    appears in the document.  parsing and interpretation is left as an
    exercise to the reader.)

    Is that how you are paid by Digital to keep the stuff at home, or how
    much you are expected to pay Digital for it?
    
    Just boxing and shipping this old stuff costs more than it's worth.
    
    Pat

    re: .350
    
    That's how much the (ex-)employee is expected to pay Digital.
    
    Just this morning I was wondering if Digital shouldn't be paying us
    to keep the equipment to avoid the expense of having to junk it.

    The TFSO package includes a sheet which details the lump sum payment,
    including the taxes which will be withheld.  The computed income
    tax withholding is FAR too low!!

    In my case I have no income other than my salary from Digital.
    When I figured my estimated tax liability (as described below)
    I found the withholding to be off by nearly $1800.  I'm not sure
    if there are similar errors in the FICA withholdings.

    Here is how I computed the estimated tax liability:

    Income:

    (1) YTD gross taxable income from last paycheck received
    (2) gross taxable income for last pay period * 11 [1]
    (3) gross taxable income for last pay period * (weeks vacation pay due)
    (4) gross lump sum payment
    (5) (1)+(2)+(3)+(4)

    Income taxes withheld: [2]

    (6) total income withheld YTD
    (7) income tax withheld last pay period * 11 [1]
    (8) income tax withheld last pay period * (weeks vacation pay due) [3]
    (9) income tax to be withheld for lump sum (stated in TFSO package)
    (10) (6)+(7)+(8)+(9)

    Estimated tax liability: [2]

    (11) Use value (5) as total income and look up tax due in 1991 tax table
         in IRS form 1040 instruction book.

    Digital's error:

    (11) - (10)

    Notes:

    [1] 11 is the number of weekly paychecks to be received after the
        paycheck used to obtain the YTD figures: (1) received during the
        notification week (for the previous week), (1) for the notification
        week, and (9) post termination paychecks.

    [2] I live and work in NH, which has no state income tax.  Residents of
        most other states and NH residents who work in MA will also have
        to compute state income tax liability.

    [3] The tax withholding table is not linear, so tax actually withheld
        from the vacation pay check will not be proportional to the
        withholding from a regular weekly check.  Unless the amount of
        unused vacation time is very large the error introduced by this
        approximation should be negligible.

    So what about your weekly deductions such as SAVE, DCU, insurances (
    both medical and life) etc.  Do they prorate those out of your check
    to, or do you get those included in your pay?
    
    bob
    

    re: .349

	Where did you get this list of equipment and prices?
	Its NOT very impressive.

    I'm not sure about SAVE - I don't participate, so I ignored any
    reference to it.
    
    DCU and insurance deductions continue as normal through the 9 week
    period.  You have to make arrangements with DCU for loan payments
    after the 9 week period is over.  Insurance will be billed monthly
    by John Hancock for the duration of the lump sum period.

    re: .354
    
    The list of equipment and prices was included in the TFSO information
    package.  It was explicitly stated that this was the only equipment
    eligible for purchase.

    RE:338
    
    Our Field Service group was told in a meeting with our District Mgr.
    this week that the lay offs were coming very soon and they would be
    very deep.  He said that 15,000 would be released from manufacturing
    alone.  The total for the company would be 30 to 40,000 by the end of
    the calander year. He did not give dates but said the "lay offs" will
    happen at two different dates for the field before the end of the
    second quarter.  He allso indicated that sales and sales support will
    be hit very hard as well.

    
Re: .349, etc
    
>    Personal Computers				$200 each
>    	Rainbows
>    	DECmate I, II, and III
>    	PRO 350 and 380
>    	VAXmate PC500
>    	DECstation 2xx series

Give me a break...  U.S.A Today have a 1/4 section ad. claim you can pay
$349 for 80286 PC with 2 Meg RAM, Dual floppy, and 20 Meg disk.

Who will need those worthless iron as above ? make your own judgement whether
$200 is worth or not ?

Michael.. ($200 + ?? = best 486)
    
   

    For those getting the package and those who have heard about the
    package. We have been told here in Colorado that if you get the package
    and get a job within the 9 weeks, you forfit the lump sum payment.
    In other words, you can not go looking for a new job for the first
    9 weeks if you want your lump sum package.

    Is this for real?!?!?!

    They expect us to sit on our butts for 9 weeks?
    
    

>They expect us to sit on our butts for 9 weeks?

No, spend it looking for a job and start the new job at 9 weeks + 1 day.

Dave

    re: .359
    
    I've got a call in to Personnel about that issue.  If I get an answer
    before I leave tomorrow I'll post it here.

    ref. cant start a new job before 9 weeks.

    One must be really good if you can find a job in less than 9 weeks in
    this economy.

    I mean a good job offcourse! otherwise, burger-king is always hiring
    iam told. 

    I see it now, an ex-consultant will be in charge of flipping the burgers 
    (trickiest part, and hardest and most challenging part), an
    ex-principle_engineer will be in charge of a group of ex-senior_engineers 
    (see below for detailed ).

    an ex-senior_software_engineer will be given the responsibility of
    wrapping the burgers (good start, learn the business from bottom-up),
    an ex_senior_hardware_engineer will be in charge of adjusting the
    temperature of the micro-wave oven. 

    an ex-software_quality_assurance_engineer makes sure there is enough beef in
    the bun. he/she takes the burger from the ex-senior_engineer and
    inspect it thoroughly, if enough beef is found, he/she handed it over
    to the ex-Kit_Builder_engineer (see below). 

    an ex-Kit_Builder_engineer takes the finished burger from the 
    ex-software_quality_assurance_engineer , puts it on tray and handed to 
    the waiting customer with a big smile.

    /Nasser
    

    I know people who got TFSO'd on a Friday and started a new job the
    following Monday so I don't know how this can be true. I would think
    they would want you to find another job as soon as you could.
    
    Most of those people were pretty sure they were going to be hit and
    found a new job before they actually got the package.  This also
    happened last July so maybe they have changed the rules for some
    reason.
    

    re .359
    
    If those are the rules, then use'em to your own advantage!  If you are
    like most people changing jobs, you are having some emotional ups and
    downs.  Use 9 weeks (at Digital's expense) to get your head screwed on
    straight to your own satisfaction.  (In other words, take a
    well-deserved vacation.)  Your next employer would like you to be able
    to address your future with him, not your past with Digital.
    
    imho,
    
    Dick

    Re: Note 1948.357 by SWAM1::TRENT_JO    

    >> He said that 15,000 would be released from manufacturing alone. <<

    I think you're wrong on the above statement, or DEC is getting totally
    out of manufacturing anything.

    Two years ago World Wide Mfg headcount was at 37K, starting this year
    it was about at 21K with several programs already in place like the 
    closing of Puerto Rico (AGO/SGO), the probable sale of Greenville (GSO)
    and several other consolidations which should bring it down to about
    18K. There are rumors that the eventual target is about 15K.

    So if the rumor was that we would lose 15K, we have already lost 16K in
    the last two years, with plans in place to lose an additional 3K for a
    total of 19K.

    If the rumor was that we would lose an additional 15K, then there would
    only be 3K left to do any manufacturing, which means that we could
    support maybe 1 semiconductor plant, and the infrastructure to
    outsource all manufacturing.

    If the rumor is that Mfg would downsize to 15K, it probably has some
    grain of truth in it.

    /jim

re:	362

>    an ex-software_quality_assurance_engineer makes sure there is enough beef in
>    the bun.

	You've forgotten the ex finance person making sure there is not
	too much beef in the bun.

    Re: Having to wait 9 weeks before you can go to work elsewhere....
    
    What a load of toro-kaka...
    
    If you get a job during the 9 week period, you are obligated to inform
    your new employer that you are still on Digital's payroll and are 
    receiving medical/dental/etc benefits from D.E.C. until such-and-such
    a date. This will allow the new employer to arrange any similar
    benefits to kick in after your D.E.C. benefits expire. A story was being
    passed around during one of the last TFSO's that a former D.E.C.
    employee was terminated by the new employer for not informing them of
    their situation with D.E.C. It was viewed as lying on their job
    application.
    
    When I was in the USAF, we had a saying that all new people assigned to
    the group should be sent to the sheet metal shop where they could have
    a plexi-glass window inserted in their stomach. This way, they could
    see where they were going when they had their head up their rectum. The
    so-called managers that are passing patently false information or
    making generally uninformed comments about the layoffs have obviously
    never visited there.
                                              
    Bob.
    
    
    
    
    

    
    re: .362  Burger King analogy
    
    
    you forgot the ex_sales_engineer who takes orders through the
    speaker at the drive-thru...
    
    
    
    Marc

    "Welcome to ByteBurger. Can I help you?"
    
                                             "I'd like a cheesburger."
    
    "Do you have the part number?"
    
    Edd

   What I want to know is who will be able to afford these hamburgers?

   With all the layoffs all over the U.S., nobody will have enough money to
   eat out, anyway.

   Well, maybe all those politicians who still insist we're not in a
   recession...


   							Terza

    Now, some news from the Washington D.C. area...
    
    On Monday, my manager has scheduled a mandatory conference call for the
    entire unit.  This is after he has been in Atlanta all week, and the
    topic is reportedly layoffs.  He has told me personally (last week)
    that no layoffs are planned; that we have an open slot...We shall see
    on Monday.
    
    The NIS Portfolio Training scheduled for August 10 - 13 has been
    abruptly cancelled, after much fanfare.  Cost constraints forced the
    cancellation.  
    
    This is a shocking rumour, and I don't know if the info is second,
    third, fourth hand or worse...Apparently someone either walked into an
    office at our McCormick Drive Data Center (TJR) and fired several
    shots, OR fired several shots from outside into an office window.  No
    one is saying much about it, including whether the person responsible
    is someone who was recently TFSO'd.  I have no further info, and am not
    inclined to pursue any...can anyone confirm or deny this rumour?
    
    PFD

    there will be instated a special EPP pricing on all the beef burgers.
    so all ex_engineers will be able to enjoy burgers at special discounts.

    Re .371:
    
    Interesting - explains the electronic mail I received regarding
    "Threats of Violence" and the "emergency response team" which
    had been set up.  I couldn't figure out WHY until .371's reply.

    re: .372
     
    Bad news is that the EPP price for burgers is a little high.  Good news
    is that financing is available.
    
    Steve

    .373
    
     Could you forward E-mail.  THEBAY::JOHNSONLE
    
     Thanks
    
    LAJ

    re: .373
    
    Can you post the E-mail here in the conference or send to BUOVAX::HILL?
    
    Thx,
    
    

    	I simply cannot believe that DEC will (or even can) prevent you
    	from getting employment elsewhere during those 9 weeks.  Why
    	should DEC care one way or the other anyway?<

	While they couldn't prevent you from becoming employed, they 
	could prevent you from getting the package.

	I thought the idea of the package was to provide financial support
	to folks who lost a job at Digital, and did not find an immediate
	equivalent position. If I get laid off from Digital, and find an
	immediate position elsewhere that pays similar compensation, I really
	don't have anywhere near the need for a financial support package
	that the I would if it ended up that I could find no job for a year, 
	or a job that paid only half of my previous job. Not that I wouldn't 
	*take* it, just hat the *need* would be decreased.

						Tom_K
	

.378>	I thought the idea of the package was to provide financial support
.378>	to folks who lost a job at Digital, and did not find an immediate
.378>	equivalent position. 
    
    That's one way of looking at it.  I'm sure the corporate spin doctors
    like that particular interpretation.  I'm not sure what the corporation
    gets out of it except large negative cash flow...
    
    I've heard that the cash "package" requires signing an agreement not to
    sue Digital.  My own interpretation was that this probably explains the
    corporate willingness to endure large negative cash flow as a cost of
    reducing the risk of lawsuits for wrongful termination and perhaps
    eliminating potential claims for priority in rehiring.
    
    While priority in rehiring probably wouldn't be an issue for someone
    finding a job elsewhere within the nine weeks, wrongful termination
    might still be...

    I just spoke to the Personnel rep handling the TFSO for The VMS
    Engineering organization.  She said it is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE
    that you forfeit the lump sum payment if you accept another job
    during the 9 week period.  If you sign and return the waiver you
    receive the payment.

What happens if an employee refuses to sign the waiver?

I thought you still get the 9 weeks even if you don't sign the waiver.

I've heard no waiver, no money.

    I believe signing the waiver gives you compensation above and beyond
    the mandatory 9 weeks, and, in exchange for signing the waiver, you
    agree not to be rehired within some finite period of time, like one
    year.  I do not know the exact time.
    
    Charles Norton

I too have heard "no waiver, no money."  However, I've been told by people
who alleged to have had legal counsel that Digital has to give up the
money anyway.  Maybe it's one of those situations where if they give it to
everyone else they have to give it to you too.   I've been told that the 
waiver isn't worth the paper it is written on.  I haven't seen the waiver. 
I haven't had legal counsel. All this is hearsay.

Karen 

RE: .86

The fact that you signed a piece of paper is good for the Corporation that
gets you to sign.  But what has been argued (and I believed won), is that
the person signing either didn't understand the terms of the contract or
was presured into signing.  And it is treated as a contract, you get money,
the company gets your pledge to not sue them.  So like any other contract,
it can be broken if there is resonable cause.

One of the ways that this type of issue gets into court is when a pattern
of discrimination can be shown in the demographics of those being let go.
For example, if only women or only a certain racial group were the majority
of the people being terminated, those folks could likely sue the company
based on EEO grounds, even if they had signed the paper.

Lee G.

    I think DEC is still being very good here, when I worked at EDS, they send 
    us, punch of young hires, to a training for 2 months, we had to sign that
    if we leave EDS before 3 years after the end of the training, we had to pay
    back to EDS the cost of training, I forgot the number, but it was
    few thousands dollars. (they actually had it on a scale, the longer
    you stayed, the less you have to pay back), also we had to sign 
    that you cant start a business that compete with EDS for a radius of x 
    miles (number escapes me) for a period of x years.

    When I worked at EDS they wont even pay for my books for the computer 
    courses Iam taking that are related to my job, never mind the course fees.
    
    but here at DEC they pay for my courses + books. and when you leave DEC,
    DEC will not come after you telling you to pay back all the $$ DEC
    spend on you for your schooling...

    /nasser

re .388

I'm positive DEC is looking out for the best interest of DEC. So it's
up to the TFSO'd employee to look out for the best interest of the TFSO'd
employee whether DEC is better than EDS or not.  TFSO is a divorce of 
sorts.

   

     ref .389
    i've never been married, so i dont know how divorce is like, and
    so i cant argue about your divorce analogy , but i still think the 
    DEC TFSO terms are good, even though the 9-weeks thing is in it. 

    if DEC was just looking after its own interest, then why did DEC not just
    pay 1-week, why 9-weeks? where does it say DEC have to pay anything?

    /nasser

    Perhaps the rules have changed since last year, but a friend who
    was TFSO'd on a Tuesday was hired by an ATD by Friday.  Everyone at
    DEC knew it because they were directing a lot of business her way.
    
    The person who cautioned about taxes was giving good advice.  My
    friend would have been better off taking Dick Beldin's suggestion
    and using the 9 weeks to relax and regroup, but in the panic of the
    moment she grabbed at the offer.  The money she made working for
    the ATD, plus her DEC lump sum (which was not taxed properly) had
    her paying over $5,000 to Uncle Sam this year.  
    
    Earlier this year her health hit the fan; I honestly think it was
    some sort of delayed stress because she had rarely gotten sick in
    the past.
    
    I'd follow Dick's advice, take the time to re-group and keep looking.
    
    K
    

>if DEC was just looking after its own interest, then why did DEC not just
>pay 1-week, why 9-weeks? where does it say DEC have to pay anything?

Guess: 
Mass state law says companies over X employees must give 60 days notice
prior to layoff. Therefore, 9 weeks pay. Since a lot of people in DEC
work for inter-state organisations, it's probably easier from a legal
standpoint to apply Mass law to all people.

The lump sum based on time with the company is probably designed to
preserve company's good name.

WHY CAN'T SOMEONE FROM PERSONNEL WITH THE FACTS RESPOND TO THIS NOTE.
They've gotta be reading this - everyone else is. Can't someone say
"My name is X, I work in Y, these are the facts...."

    Has anyone heard when other sites may get hit...such as COLORADO?
    

    Hmmmm, "lean DECburgers". Wouldn't that be considered an "oxymoron"??
    
    :-)

    I just want to let everyone know, 2 weeks ago (SCIT or SCO ) what ever
    it is called HLO - FXO was hit with Transition.  Out of the 2600+
    people working there only 15 to 20 would be put into Transition.  I
    know of 5.  They were myself and 4 others from 1 group. This group only
    had 25 people in it and they went after the low ones.  4 others from
    the rest of the Quality groups got it.  2 of us were able to find jobs
    in other groups and the other 3 are out the door.  Yes it was the 9
    weeks base and 2 weeks per year 1-10 and 3 weeks per year 11+.

    reply to 371 & 373
    Below is the All-IN-ONE I received today concerning the incident of
    violence at TJR (Landover, MD).
    
    SITE SEVICES AND SOUTHERN STATES REGION SECURITY COMMUNICATION
                      Referencing TJR Vandalism
    
    On July 29, Digital reported an incident of vandalism to Prince
    George's Co. (MD) Police Department.  In an effort to eliminate any
    fears or stress caused by rumors, the following information is provided
    to give you the details:
    
    At approximately 2:00AM it appears that an unknown weapon was
    discharged in the direction of the TJR facility, striking the windows
    and causing some minor damage.  The facility was completely empty and
    no one was affected by this incident.
    
    It is believed this was a random act of vandalism and was not directed
    at Digital.
    
    Our number one concern and top priority of Digital is making sure that
    each employee has a safe and secure working environment. 
    Unfortunately, this is not the first time a Digital facility in the
    U.S. has experienced vandalism.  In light of the above incident, we
    will be reminding you of ways to help ensure safety and security in
    future awareness memos.
    
    Regards,
    
    Site Services
    

    RE: the nine weeks, and signing the release
    
    The following is excerpted from Consumer Reports, February 1991.  This
    is from an articls titled "Preparing for a Recession, Job-Loss
    Strategies".
    
    "You don't have to accept the early retirement package, severence pay,
    or benefits your employer tries to hand you.  Instead, you can hire a
    lawyer to negotiate a better deal.  So many fired employees do so that
    employers have begun requiring people to sign a release from further
    obligations before they can receive benefits.  That led to the passage
    of a law last year giving employees 40 or older 45 days (21 days if
    you're the only employee affected by the lay-off) to decide whether to
    sign a release and seven days to revoke it."
    
    ... Bob
    

    re: .398
    
    >passage of a law..
    
    
    	1) what state???
    
    	2) is it being challenged in the courts???
    
    don't assume cause a law was passed somewhere it affects everyone...
    
    unless a federal law....and even then if being challenged in the
    legal system it may not affect you until years down the road when it's
    settled....

    i have a question on this matter. if you are not chosen for the
    packaged and instead you are told that you have to transfer to another
    location that is located into another state do you have to except the
    job or can you instist for the packaged instead. i have re-located from
    N.H. to ALABAMA in 1989 now there is a possible chance that i have to
    re-locate to ATLANTA. do to the first re-location i had alot of
    personnel problems with my family and i do not want to go thru that
    again. so the question is if you are not selected and you have to
    transfer but can't do you lose everything.

    Re: "A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF THE RULES"
    
    As the man said (sort of) in the movie "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance
    Kid" during the "street fight" scene and they were talking about the
    rules of the fight:
    
    	"What!?!  There are no rules in ....   ooof!"  (Cloud of dust and a
    	boot hoists the man and his britches up into the air a few inches.)
    
    ;^)
    
    Steve

    referencings the note about the TJR incident.......why would they
    assume that it was random violence??? A Digital sign was also shot
    out at a location 2 miles away from the first!
    

.397>    In light of the above incident, we
.397>    will be reminding you of ways to help ensure safety and security in
.397>    future awareness memos.
    
    This just was mailed to our group in ZKO.  I interpret the last line as
    authorization to post...
    
{...forwarding chain deleted...}
    
Subj:	Threat of violence guidelines memo

From:	WECARE::FITZPATRICK "30-Jul-1992 1654" 30-JUL-1992 17:04:37.98
To:	@MGR,@SEC,@COTTER_STAFF,@ZKOGPT,DATABS::ALLEN,STAR::RTAYLER
CC:	PREBLE
Subj:	Guidelines for managing Threats Of Violence

+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
| d | i | g | i | t | a | l |           INTEROFFICE MEMORANDUM
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+


TO:  Distribution              		DATE: July 30,1992  
     			       		FROM: Tom Fitzpatrick
		                   	DEPT: Site Personnel       
                                        EXT: 381-2592 
                                        LOC/MAIL STOP: ZKO 3-3/S01  
                                        ENET: WECARE::FITZPATRICK
            

SUBJECT: GUIDELINES FOR MANAGING THREATS OF VIOLENCE


These guidelines follow Digital policy and are being communicated to
define and establish a framework for responding to threats of 
violence, or violence; that may impact the safety and security of the
workplace in the Spit Brook cluster (ZKO, TTB, NUO, GSF):

o	WHAT CONSTITUTES A THREAT?

	A threat consists of any words or actions that either create
        a perception what there may be an intent to harm persons or 
	property, or that actually bring about harm.

o	WHAT TO DO?

	1.  The threatening words or behavior SHOULD BE TAKEN 
	    SERIOUSLY UNTIL SUFFICIENT INFORMATION AND EVALUATION 
            PROVES OTHERWISE;		

	2.  IMMEDIATELY notify Security (DTN 381-1010) and Local 
	    Threat of Violence Management Team Leader Tom Fitzpatrick
	    (DTN 381-2592), (alternate Alan Hodsdon DTN 381-0073);

	3.  The Local threat of Violence Management Team will be 
	    activated to implement Emergency Response Procedures as 
	    acts warrant and to develop the Initial Action Plan.

	    SPIT BROOK CLUSTER TOV MANAGEMENT TEAM:

	    .  Tom Fitzpatrick  - Team Leader		DTN 381-2592
	    .  Tim McCoy - Security			DTN 381-1641
	    .  Jim Dirico - Facilities			DTN 381-1009
	    .  Alan Hodsdon - Personnel			DTN 381-0073
	    .  Matt Sepe - Personnel			DTN 381-2359
	    .  Nita Bookheim - Health Services		DTN 381-0241
	    .  Line Manager - T.B.D.
	    .  EAP - As appropiate

	4.  When violence seems imminent in a TOV situation Security
	    will notify the police immediately.  As the Action Plan 
	    is developed, expert Corporate Resources will also be 
	    notified to provide advice and support (Security, EAP, 
	    Legal, Health Services, Employee Relations).


PLEASE DISTRIBUTE THIS MESSAGE WIDELY.
    

    re .403, although it is not explicitly written into the policy, I hear
    through the grapevine that even joking around about the possibility of
    violence will be met with the same sense of humor that the FAA has
    about airline bomb jokes...

    RE: .402  Can you post more info with regards to the Digital sign which
    was shot out?  Thank you.
    
    Mike

    RE .358
    DO YOU HAVE THE ADDRESS FOR THAT OFFER. I SAW IT A FEW WEEKS AGO BUT
    DID NOT WRITE IT DOWN? (OR WHAT DATE U.S.A. TODAY DID YOU SEE IT AND
    I WILL LOOK IT UP. THX.
    
    
    

    
    Having scanned the previous replies to this topic I've yet to see
    mention of a "CORPORATE" policy statement in regards to the current
    TSFO package and it's contents, ie: what it covers in terms of
    benefits, is it involentary site vs company wide, how long is the
    package being made available, ect. ect.
    
    I find it hard to accept that a document being used as the corporate
    "Bible" does not exsist. Most of the info I've gathered regarding this
    package has been put together via piece mail and hearsay.
    
    I would like the current policies written/documented, that would go
    along way in leveling the current playing field.
    
    I'm still waiting for an answer for my PSA.
    
    Shawn                                  

    re .407
    
    If you will accept them, there are several point blank statements in
    Livewire by persons such as Jack Smith that different approachs are
    being used in different places.  I know for a fact that the management
    of a facility is required to make a proposal which is either accepted
    or amended.  This process step makes it extremely unlikely that 100%
    consistency is achieved.
    
    Certainly there are differences between the various subsidiaries and
    Digital in the US.  In general, you will not find any Digital policies
    that are immune to local interpretation.  This means that your own
    management chain is more to be believed than any of us.
    
    fwiw,
    
    Dick

    Re; If you will accept them, there are several point blank
        statements in
        Livewire by persons such as Jack Smith that different approachs are
        being used in different places.
    
    I think this is a really bad idea, because it feeds the rumor mills
    about no package and so on.  If the company could state a consistent
    policy for, say, the next year, and update it in some reasonable time
    before the year lapses, a lot of anxiety would be lessened.
     

re: .409:

>    I think this is a really bad idea, because it feeds the rumor mills
>    about no package and so on.

I have been told by one ex-employee who was laid off shortly before DECworld
(however long ago that was) that their organization (channels) did not have any
money available for severance packages (beyond what was legally required,
presumably).  I would take the statements in Livewire to confirm this, which
unfortunately means that, for some people, this is true.  However, this is not
universal.  (Luckily, he found a job the next week with a former customer.  He
came to DECworld anyway, but as a customer.)

>  If the company could state a consistent
>    policy for, say, the next year, and update it in some reasonable time
>    before the year lapses, a lot of anxiety would be lessened.
     
Agreed!  (How many long-range plans have we had this year?)

    re: .410
    
    Assuming that you are talking about someone from the US, that story
    smells.
    
    First off, it wasn't the impacted organizations responsibility to fund
    severance packages.  The corporation put up that money.  In fact,
    TFSO'd employees are transferred out of their organizations CC's and
    put into special CC's the day the 9 week transition period starts.
    
    Second, I'm not aware of any organizations that were doing layoffs
    around DECworld.  Since Channels is, I believe, a part of the US Field
    and since Z made the statement back in the fall that there would be no
    more layoffs in FY92, I would tend to suspect that this person was not
    laid off at all.  Personally, I would suspect that someone who gave me 
    that story under those circumstances was terminated for cause and found
    TFSO a convenient face-saving way of avoiding an uncomfortable
    explanation.
    
    Al
    

    DEC write a policy?
    
    hahahahahahaha!
    
    ...and stick to it?
    
    snicker-snigger-snicker

    RE:357 .365
        The jist of our managers statement was "yes we are getting out of
    manufacturing".  I do not know where he got his info but he is not
    known to pass rumors around.  He said DEC will look very different in a
    couple of years, maybe sooner!

>The jist of our managers statement was "yes we are getting out of
>manufacturing".

I wish he'd tell the board of directors. They haven't heard about this yet.

    re .414
    
    I believe it was in Livewire that Bob Palmer was quoted as saying that
    we would have no more than six (6) manufacturing sites by 1995,
    anywhere in the world.  Further speculations give a maximum of three
    (3) for the U.S.A.  One of the three will be Hudson, where ALPHA chips
    are made.  All the rest of the plants in the U.S. are competing for the
    second and third slots.
    
    The change in strategy has been widely publicised.  Digital will focus
    on giving customers what they are willing to pay for, with systems
    integration the leading wedge.  Other than ALPHA based systems, we will
    make only that which we cannot buy cheaper.  Now, this won't happen in
    a few months, but before I have run out of my severance package
    benefits, I expect to see Digital down to fewer than fifteen plants,
    worldwide.  (Clue, thats 14 months from D-Day).
    
    Don't kid yourselves.  The comment around here is that the most
    revealing thing that Palmer could do would be to close the Mill!  Then,
    maybe everyone would get the message that this is a different company
    by the same name.
    
    fwiw,
    
    Dick

re .415:

>    I believe it was in Livewire that Bob Palmer was quoted as saying that
>    we would have no more than six (6) manufacturing sites by 1995,
>    anywhere in the world.

You left out the qualification: except for political and geographical
considerations.

.411>    Personally, I would suspect that someone who gave me 
.411>    that story under those circumstances was terminated for cause and found
.411>    TFSO a convenient face-saving way of avoiding an uncomfortable
.411>    explanation.
    
    Could it be that the person had been terminated "for cause" under
    circumstance that they knew were bogus, and assumed the reason was to
    save the corporation TFSO costs?  Personally, I'd tend to take any
    warning from Personnel of possible cause *very seriously* at this time, 
    especially for anyone in a situation that might be at risk of TFSO.
    
    I'd hope that the Corporation would do the "right thing" by treating
    everyone at risk fairly, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility
    that some misguided organizational element might think the "right
    thing" on business grounds was saving the corporation TFSO costs
    (especially if they had that morality deficit some other note
    advocated!).
    
    --bruce

    re: .417
    
    Well, if Digital really managed for performance, people who were not
    performing up to the requirements of their job would be let go at the
    earliest opportunity.  That's just good business sense.  We should not,
    especially in these times, be overly lenient toward poor or marginal
    employees.  TFSO is a tool to help people through a difficult time. 
    It's not there as a gift to the talented, nor as an excuse for the
    manager for not doing his or her job.
    
    That being said, reality at Digital is a different story.  We do a
    terrible job of managing performance.  It works something like this:
    50% of the managers engage in rating inflation because they are unable
    or unwilling to be realistic in their assesments.  The other 50% engage
    in the same rating inflation because they don't want their people
    unjustly screwed by having them be the only ones realistically rated.
    
    A good way to do it properly is to copy IBM and GE.  Managers can
    hand out any performance rating they want.  They can rate all their
    employees 1's if they feel like it.  But once a year, they are forced
    to rank everybody from top to bottom and the bottom 10% are targeted
    for separation from the company - improve or get out.  This way ensures
    that performance is managed on at least some scale and that there is
    some turnover in the organization which, I believe, is a good thing.
    
    Al
    

re: .418

FWIW...

 I agree with much of what you said, in principal. I understand your
characterization/breakdown of the manner in which performance reviews are 
managed but I feel the need to inject some sense of reality.

 As one who, until recently, was a supervisor for 5 years and therefore an 
administrator of the performance reviewing system, I must treat my comments 
carefully to assure the respect for privacy due to each employee previously
reporting to me.

That being said, I can honestly say that I don't believe any performance rating 
system can be effective, honest and true as long as it remains a subjective, 
interpretive process. During my supervisory tenure, I saw consistent attempts 
to educate supervisors and managers on the recommended rating methods. Even 
though these methods seemed very reasonable, they were very very unrealistic. 
Specifically when considering the rating scales and the "pay for performance
and experience" scales.

The rating scales were to be used something like this:

	1 - Walks on water
	2 - Can walk on wet ice
	3 - Knows how to swim
	5 - Might as well buy a ticket on a ship called the "Titanic"

 To over extend the metaphor, notice that there isn't (or wasn't for a long 
time) anything between swimming and sinking??? I'm sure there may be have 
abuse and over use of the "4" rating but for a number of years, DEC expected 
this type of system to be fairly implemented. So what happened? The scale was 
"scaled". 

	"5" stayed a "5". 
	"4" became a "3" or a "5" 
	"3" became a "2" or "3"
	"2" became a "1" or "2"
	"1" became a "1" or a sacred_temple_not_to_be_touched
	
 An ounce of common sense will explain how absurd this situation was.

 The other piece of ambiguity was the pay scales. There are published
scales which suggest the proper placement of individuals with X amount
experience and Y rating of performance. These scales were a good way to
evaluate the relative pay scales amongst comparable employees but in my
experience, they are useless otherwise. It was very rare to see anyone fall
into the appropriate pay scale based on their experience and performance.

 As we all well know, DEC leaves virtually all of it's policies open and 
subjected to an individual manager's interpretation. Performance reviews are 
NO exception to this policy.

 As the saying goes, "a carpenter is only as good as his tools". Supervisors
and managers are not much different from a carpenter.

 As I see it, corporate policy makers are primarily responsible for the
results of an unrealistic rating system. Not personnel, not the managers
and not the supervisors. Unfortunately, an individual contributor's exposure
is limited to, and filtered by, their supervisor in much the same way as a
motorist would complain about a police officer serving them with a speeding
ticket. The officer can be good, or bad, but the officer just enforces the
speed limits that are set for each road.
    
 As for your comment about ranking everybody from top to bottom. DEC already
does such a thing and has all along, it is generally referred to as a
"laddering exercise". The rating is done by organization as far as I know but 
something resembling a corporate rating may very well exist.
    
 Well, I hear the rathole enforcers rubbing their palms together so
onward and upward to more productive things, like rumors!  :-(


Glenn

    re .418 - agreed that *if Digital managed for performance* there should
    be a constant winnowing of inadequate performers.  But whether this is
    true or not, the process must be fair, which means consistent rules
    applied consistently.  Changing the rules as the situation changes is
    probably necessary, as long as it is clearly and explicitly stated and
    applies fairly to the entire employee population.  It seems very likely
    to become a problem if those requirements are not met however (and that
    was my concern when I posted my response .417 to a previous reply).
    
    re .419 - I think you make some good points about the drawbacks to the
    present performance review process, but I think there are some points
    that haven't been mentioned.  For one thing, to what degree should
    situations and environment be considered as factors in performance? 
    For example, I've been working on a product going end-of-life, and I
    know it has affected my attitude as well as my performance.  Those are
    my own problems, I take responsibility for them, but to what degree
    should such mitigating factors be considered in evaluating performance? 
    There is a really big subjective adjustment right there.  For another
    thing, how much should fluctuations in performance of an employee over
    time be weighed?  Taking the same example, that situation earned me the
    worst performance review I've had in almost thirteen years with the
    company (and I say earned because I do feel it was justified).  How
    much does one down year weigh when compared with over a decade of
    good ones?  That kind of consideration makes even laddering exercises a
    very subjective process - and whenever things are subjective they have
    the potential to become political as well.
    
    In general I don't think it is possible to have a system which is
    both objective and able to take into account all relevent factors.  The
    challenge is being truly fair while considering all of the elements
    that describe performance.  Because of the difficulty of being fair
    when using a subjective measurement system, we try to make the system
    objective and thus end up with shortcomings in that some relevent
    factors are not accomodated, and because that still leaves subjective
    aspects of the system which are hidden rather than explicitly
    acknowledged.
    

    re: .420
    With regards to:
    
    "For example, I've been working on a product going end-of-life, and I
    know it has affected my attitude as well as my performance.  Those are
    my own problems. "
    
    and as a manager of engineers who support(ed) the same end of life
    product (RSX to name it) I have seen the same very same 
    "attitude and performance problem". However, I tried and hope 
    having succeeded to demonstrate to the people that this definately
    wasn't their "own problem".  
      
    /fred
    

    The package we are being offered in PCSG is 2 weeks per years 1-10, 3
    weeks years 11-17. I am told by personnell that all groups are getting
    this, but that is not what the previous notes say which talk about 2
    week 1-5, 3 weeks 5-10. Is this plan not being offered consistently
    across the US?

    re .422
    
>    The package we are being offered in PCSG is 2 weeks per years 1-10, 3
>    weeks years 11-17. 
    
    This sounds like the same package "offered" to NaC in LKG last week...
    
    
    Glenn

    Well, I asked to be considered a candidate for TFSO on Friday (8/7) and
    was told that I am not eligible due to performance (I had a 200% of
    budget year in N.I.S. Sales Support).  I asked my manager to check into
    it further, and this morning he told me that, as he had thought, the
    "package" is not voluntary, and therefore I will not be considered.
    
    I resigned right after that.  I have a new job, with another company,
    where I wil be rewarded for having 200% of budget years with serious
    money.  They also are already a corporation, not a family that is
    becoming a corporation many years too late.  
    
    I hope Digital recovers from its ills.  But I can not wait for the
    healing to begin.  Maybe Bob Palmer has the answers, and maybe Alpha is
    one of them.  But I have to think about myself and my family first (for
    the first time in 13.5 years) and my company second.
    
    Good luck to all of you.
    
    regards,
    
    Patrick Dornan

    re: .424
    
    From the viewpoint of a Digital stockholder, Digital did the right
    thing in this case.  Since you were going to leave anyway, there is no
    benefit to Digital of providing you TFSO.
    
    On the other hand, it could be argued that Digital should have tried to
    keep you, since you are an outstanding performer.  There is something
    wrong with a system that does not reward a 200% budget year, and
    perhaps the layoffs are a symptom of that wrongness.
    
    I wish you well in your new job.
        John Sauter

    Thank you, John.  A bit of clarification, though.  DEC did not know I
    had a new job when I asked for TFSO.  Although, I do not know anyone in
    today's economy that would quit company they've been with for 13+ years
    without a better opportunity.
    
    regards,
    
    Patrick

    Talking in the DEC vindictive mood.......Patrick, how could you have
    missed your forecast by so much!?!?  Sounds like you screwed up the
    estimate!   ;-)))  (back to the indicative)  Good luck, and thanks for
    the sales you did give us.
    
    DAR

> Although, I do not know anyone in
>    today's economy that would quit company they've been with for 13+ years
>    without a better opportunity.

Actually, I've seen a few examples of this recently, and I almost count myself
as one.  Well, I haven't been with the company for 13+ years (only 9+ in my 
case), but I have been doing essentially the same thing (software engineering)
for 17.5 years.  Still, I've seen more than one person (not counting me) make
the decision to quit the company they've been with for 13+ years without having
a better opportunity.  And, they've all been recently, in today's ecomony, and
with full awareness of exactly what sort of risk that entails.

I too asked for the package and didn't get it.  I guess it's not too surprising
given everything else that's happened, but I do find it somewhat ironic that I
got my first good review in 5 years at a time that I'd just as soon have got
laid off.  I'm not upset at not getting the package, because as I've said 
elsewhere, I don't really feel that the company owes me anything.

I would have really loved to get the package, however, as I could use the money,
and not just as a buffer between here and my next job.  I'm going to end my
status as a career long college dropout, and actually go pursue a bachelor's
degree this fall, and to be quite honest, one of the few things keeping me here
this long was to wait around for the package.

But, since it's undergrad, I don't qualify for GEEP, nor would I want to, 'cause
I'm not studying anything work related.  Since I don't have a degree, I also
didn't qualify for EEP, even though it would have been #2 on my list of things
I'd like to do.

That means I'm going to school without any visible means of support, other than
the savings I've built up over the last 9 years, which I assure you aren't quite
enough to see me to graduation (although it comes close).  TFSO would have put
me over the top.  But, I didn't get it.

Now, I'm making the painful decision between staying on part time or worrying
about the money shortfall later.  The only upside of part time is financial.

Interestingly, the emotional separation I've gone through in the last few months
as a part of my preparation for separation from the company, has been exactly
what I needed to do to get along with DEC again.  Now that it's not life and
death, total financial dependence on DEC, and/or career with a big "C", I can
come to work without dread.

Well, it would have been nice to get the package, and I know some close 
coworkers, one of whom was doing some of the same things I do, who got the 
package and didn't want it.  It would seem to me that it'd have gone well had
we been able to trade places:  DEC would have been able to keep someone who 
wanted to stay with DEC (and continue being loyal), they wouldn't have their
lives disrupted, DEC wouldn't have to keep carrying an indifferent employee (me),
and I'd have a little "thank you" from the company that I've given over half
my ex-Career to.

I won't go into the whole story, but believe me, there's tons of irony here, and
I'm not missing it.  I'm not pissed, but I am somewhat humored.

    So what's to stop someone who DOESN'T want to get laid off from
    "volunteering", thus insuring that it can't happen to them???
    

    Good thinking! But ... If you do volunteer, does that mean you'll get a
    job offer for twice your current salary, so that you can resign? 

>    So what's to stop someone who DOESN'T want to get laid off from
>    "volunteering", thus insuring that it can't happen to them???
    
	Nope, not me.  No way do I want to get the package.  No sir.
	I have no interest in tha package whatsoever.  Get it away 
	from me.  I can't stand the sight of it.  Don't even mention
	that word around me.  You can just take that pacakge and ...

	Is anyone listening?

		-- Cliff

    
    <----    8^)
    
    
    I've got to try that!
    
    Carole

    Re: last few
    
    Hmmm.  B'r Rabbit syndrome arrives at Digital.

    I know someone whom it was well known was leaving the company and they
    recieved the package as a good-bye thank-you (okay, this was almost 2
    years ago).  Guess it depends on who you know or who....
    
    Reg.

    
    re:.434
    Like... I'm hip to that noise. I can think of a couple top performers
    that "took" the package previously. This would be in a field office.
    They were positive performers who could enhance revenue and to my
    (limited) knowledge were ineligible for TFSO. I found it interesting.
    I think they watch that kind of thing now but would not be surprised
    to see it again.
    
    J

    Using Child Psychology on management re TFSO.. how fitting
    
    karl

              I had a pleasant dream last night about being layed-off. Then
    I woke up and realized I had to get up out of bed and come to work. No
    fair! I was going to take art classes this fall, now I'll have to take
    programming!  PTHHHHT!
                                       Mary

    
    Has anyone heard of the "next" round of lay-offs that are supposed
    it hit this coming Monday (August 17th)?
    

RE: .-1

Some groups are "slower" than others to carry out the current "round".  Maybe
that's what you have heard.

My immediate organization is waiting for our announcements either August
24th or 31st, but it is still part of the June/July wave...

/Marty

    RE: .-2
    
    The admin group (of which I'm a part of) is scheduled
    for layoff Monday 8/17. 

    I hear that the next 2-3 Mondays are going to be bad, here at DEC.
    

    
    Mondays are always bad.
    
    	;*)
    fwd

    There is supposed to be a round of dismissals today. Rumor has it 22
    folks will get the boot.

        D-day is here....
               have no fear....
                  management will push it out another year.....


                   Let's just get it over with !!!!!!!

                           JRI

    Well June is gone, July is over, now August 17th is here.  Still no
    "lay offs" in the field?  Anyone hear of the next target date, will it
    be this year?

    re: .445
    
    Au contraire...layoffs have hit/are hitting the field today..
    

    Yes rumor has it they are staggering it 1/3 today, 1/3 next 
    Monday and the rest the following Monday. 
    
    D day for TNSG is rumored to be next Monday the 24th.
        
    Anyone know the words to  Nearer My God Thee ?

                                             
                                                Jay L.
    

    
    I have heard of at least 3 layoffs in the Cincinnati office, none
    announced yet here in my office in Michigan. This round is part of the
    consolidation to "processign centers" from individual offices doing
    contract administration, etc.....   I did hear that a couple of field
    engineers were to be let go the week of the 24th.

I just talked to our Personnel person here in Cincinnati.  She told me
that the Services (and Sales, I'm not sure) layoffs will happen during 
the four-week period starting Aug 24.

It is my understanding that Admin is being hit this week (Aug 17).

Education & Training got hit Aug. 3.

Frank

    
    Hold on to your hats, we were told in a meeting that the next round is
    set for Oct-Nov time period.
    
    
    Mike

    Bang......
    I have been rightsized..............
    
    last day is friday, after 15 years at Dec in programming and Sales
    support/
    
    
    
    In the wrong place at the wrong time..........
    
    
    
    alan
    

    Check your mail
    

    Here in the NYO office in NY City we were told that our group, the SI
    SSG Services group, will undoubtedly be hit - and that it will happen
    either during the week of 8/24 or the week of 8/31.  Talk about nerve
    racking...

    I think that it is safe to say that this process will be on-going
    for quite some time. Business will be evaluating work levels at
    all times. Nerve racking, yes, very much so. If we plan on working
    for DEC in the future it is a feeling that we are going to have to
    get used to. If we don't like it it is time to make plans elsewhere.
    
    I don't like it but I can understand it. 
    
    Jim C.
    

    Hi,
    
    I am in the Tampa office.  One person in Admin got the package
    yesterday.  She was the only one out of this office.
    
    Vijay.

    >     <<< Note 1948.454 by ICS::CROUCH "Subterranean Dharma Bum" >>>
    >                         -< Get used to this >-
    >
    >I think that it is safe to say that this process will be on-going
    >for quite some time. Business will be evaluating work levels at
    >all times. Nerve racking, yes, very much so. If we plan on working
    >for DEC in the future it is a feeling that we are going to have to
    >get used to. If we don't like it it is time to make plans elsewhere.
    >
    >I don't like it but I can understand it. 
    
    
    Here in BTO we have been living with it for several years.
    
    My nerves are pretty worn..
    
    Mark

    
    
    .455
    		Was that person in Admin a secretary?
    

    re: 457
    
    No, she was not a secretary,  she was responsible for customer order
    entry as far as I know.  I had been talking to her for a while now
    and she was expecting this to happen.
    
    Vijay.

>    No, she was not a secretary,  she was responsible for customer order
>    entry as far as I know.

	That's good. After all how often do we need someone to enter an order.
	And if it gets down after a two week backlog who cares? It's not as if
	the customer really wants the stuff to actually solve a business problem.

			Alfred

    
    .458.....thanks.  I don't know that it makes me feel any more secure
     (as a secretary) since one of the biggest potential area for "outsourcing"
     is secretarial, but thanks for answering

    I've skipped over a lot here, so pardonnez moi if some of this has
    already been covered...

    We were told that secretaries are not to be included in TFSO.  (The
    secretarial reqs are about the only ones NOT frozen in the JOBS book,
    and there are a *ton* of 'em.)  Also, poor performers are not to be 
    included because that would be "rewarding" them, and they should be 
    dealt with through the usual PA process.  There will be a series of 
    layoffs from now through December...spaced out so as not to overload 
    the Unemployment Offices and outplacement agencies all at once. 
    After September, all TFSO packages will be 9 weeks, regardless of the 
    employees' length of service.  (Right now the package is 9 weeks plus 
    2 weeks for each year of service.)

    From what I've seen (and experienced), the downsizing is being done
    solely on the basis of what work does not need to be done at all, and 
    what work overlaps with other groups', or can be done by contractors.  
    It's just a matter of luck (or lack thereof)...being in the chosen group 
    or project at selection time.  

	darch (member of 'chosen' group)

	Can someone settle an argument. I have been told in Mass that it is a 
state law that everyone gets at least 9 weeks when being layed off. I say that's
not true. I have alot of friends who in the past have been layed off by small
construction companies and so forth. They did not receive anything at all and
it was very common for them to be laid off for 2 weeks then work for 10 ect...

	So my question is...Is it Mass law that DEC pay 9 weeks or can they tell
you to get lost with nothing ?

	-Steve-

    
    
    	I believe it has something to do with the number of employees you
    	have working for you.... 
    
    	There's some magic number after which you must give a bit of lead 
    	time to people who will be laid off.
    
    						Mike
    						----
    	

        Re: .462

> Is it Mass law that DEC pay 9 weeks ... ?

        I don't have a law number to reference, but the 9 week (60 day)
        requirement is based on the size of the company and the size of
        the layoff.  Layoffs by small companies and small layoffs by big
        companies can be done without giving notice.  A common practice
        is to give 9 weeks pay instead of 9 weeks notice.

        The purpose of laws like this (and many states have similar
        laws) is not to benefit individuals, but to protect communities. 
        The state governments don't want big companies to dump their
        economic problems on a community by shutting down a factory
        whenever they accumulate inventory and resuming production when
        inventory gets low.  The theory, which often works, is that big
        companies that plan well won't be hurt significantly by the law.

						B.J.

    From what I've read, the 9 week law only applies to employees over 40
    (on the assumption that it'll be more difficult for them to find jobs
    than their younger counterparts) and only if 20 or more employees over
    40 are laid off.  Many companies have chosen to apply the 9-week standard
    across the board ... Digital is one of them ... so far.
    
    ... Bob
    

    
    i thought it had to do with the mass plant-closing law. 
    


	If you close a plant, you must give
	60 days notice. It is not a 60 days notice for a layoff. DEC 
	is following the 60 days notice thing, but probably more
	for "legal insurance" than because they have to. In other words,
	it is easier to follow the procedure outlined in the plant-closing
	law than to take the risk of being sued because you didn't follow
	it. After all, we are "closing"  a lot of plants. Not all the 
	people in those plants lose their jobs, but some do, and so
	it is unclear whether the law would really apply to us or not.
	in that situation, it is easier to just follow it. 

	don't forget also that the lump sum given at the end of the nine
	weeks in not legally obligated. that is DEC's voluntary action ot
	help people. they don't have to  pay it. 

    

    
    
    The law states that a company has to pay the 9
    weeks severance if they lay off 50 or more 
    employees. 
    
    

    ref .-1
    > The law states that a company has to pay the 9
    > weeks severance if they lay off 50 or more
    > employees.

    Ok, then all what the company has to do, is lay off 49 employees,
    and do that once every day, instead of laying them off all at the
    same day!

    smart idea!

    I really ought to be a lawyer, Iam good at these legal maneuvers!

    /Nasser
                   TM
    I spell checked

    
    Two questions:
    
    	1) When do the 9 weeks begin?  Is it the Monday you're told?
    	   The following Monday (after you've been unsuccessful in
    	   finding a job by that Friday)?
    
    	2) Has it been confirmed definitively that vacation time accrues
    	   during the 9 weeks?
    
    TIA.	-rjk

    Re: 469
    
    The week you are told does not count as part of the nine weeks, so you
    have almost ten weeks.  Yes vacation time does accure for the nine
    weeks and you have full medical, ect.
    
    

    RE.452
    WERE YOU GIVEN THE OPTION THAT, IF YOU HAD A SIGNED OFFER FOR ANOTHER
    JOB INSIDE OF DEC BEFORE YOUR LAST DAY THIS FRIDAY, THAT YOU WOULD
    THEN NOT BE RIGHTSIZED?

    
    What about the other side of the question?
    
    > WERE YOU GIVEN THE OPTION THAT, IF YOU HAD A SIGNED OFFER FOR ANOTHER
    > JOB INSIDE OF DEC BEFORE YOUR LAST DAY THIS FRIDAY, THAT YOU WOULD
    > THEN NOT BE RIGHTSIZED?
   
    	Suppose you were offered a job but you felt it was clearly
    unsatisfactory, do you still have the option to refuse it and take the
    package?  Seems that in some cases you could end up postponing the
    inevitable only to find that 6 months from now you would _still_ be
    'rightsized' with only a minimal severance package.  And I'm aware that
    there are no guarantees, only your performance.  That hasn't stopped
    good performers who were in the wrong place from being TSFO'd.
    
    JN

    RE: 461
    
    There are not "TONS" of Secretary jobs in the JOBS book. There were
    approxiametly 117 opening in 4 levels.  I've been 3 years in this
    Transition process and just because there are jobs listed does not mean
    they are open to Digital Employees.
    
    Signed: A frustrated Admin. Secretary.
    

    It is refreshing to see some of the layoffs in Landover, MD from the
    point of who is receiving the package.  Two specific examples are
    former Manager-types who were no longer managers but "occupying space." 
    No one knew what they did exactly or what "value-added" they offered.  
    
    If there has to be some cuts, let's cut thiskind of "fat" out of
    our company!
    

    Good bye all....  I tried in vain to find a job in the 3 1/2 days I was
    formerly told.  They didn't inform me till Tuesday Morning!  My only
    regret is---------   I could have SERPed, but having been just
    transfered from Houston, Tx.  And feeling confident that my position
    was funded for another year, and just moving into a new home 6 weeks
    ago I financialy could not afford to SERP.  My feelings are the folks
    that were TFSO's after Jan 1, 1992 were given the opportunity to SERP
    after they had left the company.  Here it is only 3 mos after SERP
    closing that I have been Transitioned.  
    
    I have enjoyed working for DEC in all aspects, and wish all well and
    hope the company comes out of the current mess.  Maybe something will
    happen and us non serpers will be remembered.  Oh, well, I'm leaving
    on a positive note and get on with the rest of my life.
    
    Ciao;
    
    Alan
    

    Can someone tell me what the TFSO stuff says about working for competitors
    and "DEC vendors" for some time after the TFSO?  Also, is the
    prohibition about working for DEC again absolute, or subject to waver
    by DEC at that later time?  Thanks.
    

    There are two aspects to the no-rehire clause in the package.  It is
    supposed to be absolute for a period equivalent to the payout in weeks,
    although this can and in rare circumstances has been overriden by VP
    sign-off.  After that you're subject to standard Digital P&P, which say
    we don't rehire, but of course we do.

    This is not the worldwide case. In the UK, you can be rehired
    as a contractor after a month, a consultant after 6 months and as a
    full-time employee after 12 months.
    
    FWIW,
    
    Andy

    Granting notable exceptions like the UK, what I wrote is the general
    case.

    Re: Andy Leslie
    
    So what's this fascinating difference between a contractor and a
    consultant anyway? (Given that this is of course a single status
    company too!)
    
    regards
    john

    re .473  MMcCallion,
    
>    approxiametly 117 opening in 4 levels.  I've been 3 years in this
>    Transition process and just because there are jobs listed does not mean
>    they are open to Digital Employees.
    
    There are a couple things here I don't  understand:
    
    1.  Why are you in transition for *3 years*?
    
    2.  Why are the 117 secretarial/admin positions *not* open to Digital
    	employees?  
    
    It's true that the JOBS BOOK (and JOBS notesfile) has a lot of jobs
    listed for which the reqs are frozen (or canceled entirely); but the
    weekly list Personnel has [ostensibly] only lists *active* openings.
    At any rate, 117 openings is exactly 110 more than I've found...
    

    I noticed that the 1214 job code (adminstrative secretary) in the
    JOBS_US has been cleaned up.  When I looked a few minutes ago they are
    down to 87 openings.  I haven't seen the total that low in ages.  I
    guess they finally cleaned up the old reqs that have been sitting there
    for an excessive amount of time.  There may be a lot of jobs opened
    in the Northeast area, but that doesn't mean they are REAL jobs!!!
    
    -sandy (who also speaks from experience)
    

    .480 It beats me! I'm only quoting the policy.
    
    /a

>              <<< Note 1948.478 by ASICS::LESLIE "Andy Leslie" >>>
>
>    This is not the worldwide case. In the UK, you can be rehired
>    as a contractor after a month, a consultant after 6 months and as a
>    full-time employee after 12 months.
    
    Interesting.  I've heard of cases where ex-employees have been back at
    their old jobs immediately, but as contractors.
    
    I know of one recent case (in the UK) in which someone was able to set
    up a contract in their own group between being made redundant and their
    last day.  I'm full of admiration for (and a little envious of) anyone
    who can exploit the system so efficiently, but I find it difficult to
    believe that Digital intends a layoff to mean a large, tax free bonus
    followed by a pay rise.  Nice work if you can get it.
    
    Mel

    I know of a case where a person was "right-sized", left to do some
    temping/contracting and was re-hired back to a permanent job within
    months (with car I might add)!  THAT is the kind of work I'd like if 
    I could get it!

    
    I admire the SERPers that retired on Friday and returned as consultants
    the following Monday.  They never even took down theit name-plate, or
    took home their personal belongings... Only to make it quite clear to
    the poor suckers left behind that their contract pays them three 
    times what they earned as an employee (plus expenses), and they're in 
    the same office, using the same equipment, insurance for (up to) 15
    years, etc, etc.
    
    What financial Einstein came up with this program?
    
      

    
    RE:  Returnees
    
    	I think this is part of the "Headcount Game" where you aren't
    forced to cut expenses as much as cut headcount.  The antithesis of
    cost control which is supposed to be corporate wide by now.
    

    
    it's also easier to not continue to 'contract' and employee
    when the time draws near without giving out any furthur
    insurance or cash to seal the deal (like TFSO).
    
    It still is a very attractive situation, but I would imagine
    that if the expnse gets out of line, the contract is ended
    without the same legal situation as a regular employee...
    
    Anyone who's on contract care to comment?
    I'm curious how often these contract deals drop out from
    under you.
    
    --Bert

    .... and the latest rumor to surface is that the layoffs in Software
    Services have been put on hold ... maybe as far as into Q2 ...
    
    If it turned out to be true, I wouldn't know whether I was crying or
    laughing so hard my eyes were tearing ....8-}
    
    Jack

re .489:

Software Services has two of Bob's three S's, so I'm not surprised that your
layoffs were postponed.  If you can somehow get Silicon in there, you'll be
safe as long as Bob's CEO.

>      <<< Note 1948.487 by RIPPLE::NORDLAND_GE "Waiting for Perot :^)" >>>
>                   -< They're only cutting headcount, not $ >-

    
>    	I think this is part of the "Headcount Game" where you aren't
>    forced to cut expenses as much as cut headcount.  The antithesis of
>    cost control which is supposed to be corporate wide by now.
 
The bottom line is PROFIT. It isn't headcount or any other number.

How long will it take before management realises that counting 
contractors as one sort of headcount and permanent employees as another
is simply fudging the figures.

I also know of people in the UK who have left with the package and then
returned the next day as a contractor or consultant.

I don't hold out a lot of hope for a company which is behaving in such
a blind and stupid manner.

Craig

    Re .-1
    
    Just to correct a misconception on your part. Both permanent employees
    and contractors are counted as headcount. You can't hide headcount
    by hiring contractors. What you can do though is hire consultants. They
    aren't counted in headcount. But you need a PO for that and there are
    meant to be rules around what consultants do (eg they're meant to
    supply their own equipment and they have to have a SPECIFIC job to
    achieve, you can't treat them as salaried employees). Unfortunately the
    rules are broken all the time. One good thing though. POs cost budget
    and it comes directly out of your cost center budget.
    
    As somebody who is responsible for putting together a cost center
    budget I just wish the company would actually measure and reward people
    with budget authority on actually meeting their budget rather than on
    silly things like headcount, how much you decide to spend on travel etc
    etc. But apparently one of the reason for all these silly rules is that
    in the past managers have been irresponsible. Some cost center has a
    budget of say $4M and come the end of Q3 they discovered they had only
    spent $2.5M so they sau "gotta spend $1.5M in Q4 otherwise my budget
    will get cut next year". So they go out and hire a bunch of people. Now
    their run rate is greater than $1M per quarter and they go into next
    year needing more than $4M to cover their existing headcount. The stuff
    of how empires have been built and contributing to the fact we lost
    $1000 per second in Q4 last year. In any other company managers would
    be fired for this sort of behaviour. But in Digital they were just
    rewarded with a bigger budget.
    
    Apparently this year head count has been looked at to stop some of the
    games. Heads can be counted whereas budgets are subject to complex
    shell games. But I still wish the company would manage to budgets
    instead of inventing ever more complex rules that aren't properly
    enforced anyway.
    
    Dave
    
    

    Dave
    	dunno about the US, but in the UK, contractors can be counted, or
    not, as headcount, depending upon the current political games being
    played.In 9 years I've known the switch to happen at least 4 or 5
    times.
    
    /andy

	I don't know about the States, but I believe that here in the UK 
you can in theory re-hire anyone at anytime, it's just that if you do 
that before the stated time limits (1 month, 6 months etc) that person 
becomes liable for large amounts of tax on his/her redundancy payments.

	There is also the tricky question of why you got rid of them if 
their job hadn't really gone away (the only valid reason for redundancy), 
unless you rehire them in a different capacity.

	Cathy

   Re: Contractors as headcount

   In SWS, contractors are not counted.  My manager has ~22 permanent
   employees, 4 DECtemps and over 20 contractors.  That is direct
   management of almost 50 people.  Over twice what a unit should have.
   Digital's response: contractors do not count toward unit size. 

   My boss still has the same customer paperwork and customer contact for
   these contractors as he does for Digital employees.  He has to
   monitor their performance (even more so since they bill him hourly).


   Re: Contractors are cheaper

   This is not exactly true.  The way Digital does its bookkeeping makes
   the contractors look very cost effective.  This is because a good
   chunk of their overhead costs are already paid by regular Digital
   employees.  They only overhead they don't incur is for benefits cost
   and overhead to manage the overhead for benefits.  Contractors have
   access to Email, the E-net, notes, telephone support, etc.

   My prediction is that line managers are going to load up on
   contractors and reduce regular employees because his margins will go
   through the roof.  He can then lower prices and make himself more
   competitive, and bring in the margins he was with regular employees. 
   The problem is that these margins are in percents, not dollars.  This
   means fewer margin dollars.  

   The management overhead (read fat) between the line manager and the
   corporation is paid for by these margin dollars.  But, now there are
   fewer dollars.  Their jobs are on the line.  They will either force
   margins percents high to compensate for their reduced income, or will
   make the cost the same as the old regular employees were.  The result
   will be a brief period of prosperity in the field followed by the
   same system only with contractors instead of regular employees. 
   We'll still be the most expensive on the block.

   Re: becoming a contractor to Digital

   Not me.  Several of by friends are independent consultants to Digital
   at my site.  Not long ago, Digital was 6-8 weeks in arrears in paying
   them.  Most are now at 3-4 weeks in arrears (it is net 30).  The
   standard contract Digital uses with these contractors provides no
   late-payment penalty.

   I don't know about other people, but I could not last 2 months
   without a check.  The only way I could go is to work for a body shop
   who pays my salary and let them fight the A/R battles with Digital.

Hi,

I'm entering this for my wife who will more than likely be getting the package
within the next month.  She'll be going out on short term disability (provided
she's still working for the company) the first week of September due to a work-
related injury to her wrist.  She's getting operated on, and will be out for 4-6
weeks.

Does anyone know how the transition package works if you're out on short-term
disability?  Is anything different, or does everything "work out" to be
equitable?  or even better?

Thanks,
Dan

    Does anyone know if you can be "fired" after recieving the official
    notification of being laid off??  During the nine week "in lue of
    notice" time frame can we accept another job with another employer?
    

    re .496  I believe the rule is that employees on disability cannot
    be laid off until they return to active status.
    

    RE. .475, DOES ANYONE KNOW THIS PERSONS NAME AND HOW TOO REACH PLEASE?

    RE: .499
    
    I do, and I can information to him.
    
    RE..

    
    
    In the first go around a person in our group was layed off while on
    Disability (I don't know if it was Short or Long Term).  The notice
    was Fed-Exed to this person's house.
    

    I believe that the orange book states that a person on Disability (LTD)
    can be layed-off if said persons job goes away.
    
    "jackin' the house", Bob
    

        Re :
>>    I believe that the orange book states that a person on Disability (LTD)
>>    can be layed-off if said persons job goes away.
>>    

    I wonder how far it would go in court!  Keeping in mind that LTD is an
    insurance that you and I pay for.  No one has a right to restrict what
    you or I have paid for.  Then again I am not a Lawyer.  I would however
    pursue it if it happened to me, on the basis I paid for the insurance.

    Jim Morton	

    P.S.  Yes I know I ended a sentence in a preposition 2X.

    We've had one person on LTD get hit and one person on maternity leave
    get hit.  I don't know what the "rules" are... this week.... but anyone
    who thinks they can't be hit, will be passed over, or any other
    variation on the theme, is a prime candidate for swampland in
    Florida...   
    
    The "theory" that people's jobs go "away" is also an interesting
    thought.  For the first week it may be "gone" but then the job gets
    disembodied and distributed to several other employees who are already
    maxed out so nothing will fall through the cracks.  I've already picked
    up the job that went "away" from a full time DTP and about a 1/4 from a
    Proj Spec IV.   (Too bad I didn't see the salary with it!)  
    
    Remember.... no matter how long this notes file goes, (and how long
    this reply is... it isn't as long as the unemployment line is right
    now!)   
    
    Keep smiling (makes 'em wonder what you're thinking!)
    

    It just doesn't make sense that a person on STD or LTD could get hit.
    When one is on LTD he becomes the responsibility of the insurance
    carrier. 3

    9 of us got axed this week in SPO. The word is they will do it in small
    numbers on a weekly basis. Tomorrow is my last day.
    I am hearing horror stories about unemployment. Like if you sign up
    after the 9 week timeframe, you still will not get unemployment
    benefits until the tfso (2 wks. 1-10years, etc) has run out. BUT, they
    take the tfso time off the front end of the unemployment timeframe.
    What? Has anyone got any information on this??? 

    Does anyone have a feel for which oranizations might be scheduled for
    downsizing next week (the 31st)?  I saw a memo from the Colorado Center
    for Migration Services indicating that they expect to be effected on
    Monday. A lot of other people seem to be hearing that their layoffs
    have been pushed back again to some unclear date.  I'm starting to
    think that there's no real scheduling process, just a bunch of
    haphazzard occurances. 

    In my experience, the unemployment benefits start after notice (when
    you go off the payroll) and lump sum severance does not count unless it
    is in lieu of notice.  So after the 9 weeks you can collect.  Your
    mileage may vary and there are questions that are asked as to whether
    it is customary for your company to give severance ( weeks pay * years
    of service or whatever ).  I would be surprised if elegability would
    start before or after the nine weeks.
    
    Rich Martin

    RE: Center for Migration Services.....DELATED UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE!
    No further info at this time.

    What do we prefer 
    
    	indecisive common sense ... or ...
    
    	decisive stupidity?
    
    Dick
    
    

    Sometimes decisive stupidity is preferable.
    
    At least decisive stupidity reinforces that idea that someone is in
    charge, and may acquire intelligence or luck.

    re .513
    
    I understand and agree, but what about this scenario?
    
    X is Y's boss.  Y was delegated a data-gathering and decision-making
    task.  Y begins to implement the decision.  X learns what was decided
    and considers it foolish.
    
    X's choices are:
    
    	a) ratify a foolish decision and live with the consequences.
    
    	b) rescind a foolish decision and take the heat for indecision.
    
    I'm not sure that I know which I prefer, but apparently BP took 
    path b).  (assuming all the previous scenario applies).
    
    Dick

   The gist of many replies in this note center around the knowledge
   (or lack of it) people have regarding TFSO ...

   Other common themes surround the delays in the decision making process
   and, if decisions are made, the speed at which they are executed.

   With all that in mind ....


            Please release me, let me go ...
                For you don't need me anymore...
            To waste this time is but a sin ....
                Release me, and let me, work again!


   With appologies to Tom Jones .... for some reason, it just seemed
   to fit .... ;^)

    
    6 customer service folks were TFSO'd in this office today as I'm sure 
    they were in many other field offices.  In the announcement meeting
    to the rest of the group the HR person expected that there would be
    no further TFSOs in our group in the near future.  However he could 
    not ensure that, (nor would I ask him to).
    
    But it seems at least for us that the waiting is over for now.
    Let's hope the guys upstairs know what they're doing here.  I really
    have to question at least one of those calls.
    
    Jeff
    

    Does it strike anyone else that the layoffs are a lot smaller 
    than we were led to beleive they'd be a couple of months ago?
    
    Dean

    RE -.1 Most definately smaller than should be. I hear that TNSG has
    only done about 200 and should be around 600.
    
    CXO Law department was TFSO'd yesterday.
    
    Other groups in CXO as well but I haven't heard which ones.
    
    Some engineering groups won't do the TFSO until end of October....
    ...it keeps dragging on.
    
    MC
    

    Chicago update:
    
    I heard that 5 people in the loop office were TFSOd yesterday.
    I don't know if that was the final count and I don't know from
    which group they came.
    
    In my husbands building, there were four people from the repair floor.
    
    In my building there were two right down the aisle from me.  I'm in a
    big building, 5 stories with and east and west wing.  I'm sure other
    must have been hit too but everyone is pretty quite about it.
    
    I'm still waiting to hear about my group.  Its getting very hard to
    concentrate on my job. 
    
    I agree with the person who said the numbers were very small.  We also
    heard rumors of "major layoffs", 5-4-and 2 doesn't sound that big to
    me consideringa all the people in this area.
    
    Renee

    Re a few back.  What makes you think the layoffs are over?  I expect
    that once Oct 1st is here they will really get rolling.  I sure hope
    I am wrong but there is plenty of time for layoffs to continue.

    Could it be that the next "MAJOR" cut will only be with the nine week
    package. This would then save Digital alot of money.  Possibly Law
    suits?  But I'm no lawyer.  Concentration on our work at hand would
    lead to better financial results, but I agree it is HARD to concentrate
    when you have little information as to if you will receive a paycheck
    in the future.  "Make the cuts, take the loss and give those employees
    that left a peaceful environment to work.
    
    MMoore 

    re: 521
    
    Should read( those employees that are still left).
    
    MMoore

    Re: .517
    
    In the U.S. organization DVN broadcast three weeks or so ago, Don
    Zereski said that the restructuring of the company would continue
    over a period of two years, with most of the layoffs coming in Q1
    AND Q2 of this year.  While not much activity has been visible so
    far, the worst may be yet to come.  Meanwhile, life goes on.
    
    	Bill

    dateline minneapolis------customer service------20% TFSO'd
    

    
       .. let me leave it at this.
    
       Customer Services has got to be one of the most accountable groups
    in the company. We justify our existance by how much time it takes to
    get to customer site, how long it takes to fix a problem, our technical 
    expertise on DEC and a multitude of non-DEC products (that we make $
    on!), and sales assistance. And all our time is accounted for by labor
    hours! If we are not working a customer problem, it's there in black &
    white!
      It's very scary to think that if Digital can cut too much in services 
    (gee, revenue in services did go up last year), that the worst is yet to 
    come. I really want to see Digital succeed in the computer market once
    again. It's gonna take a while to get over these TFSO's and what they
    do to the company's morale. Anyone who's still with the company, myself
    included, better be ready to do whatever it takes to make Digital a 
    leaner and meaner company!
    								-JR-

Well little LPO (that's Loves Park Ill.) got hit with 2 out of 16.  Both 
were in the FS, er...  Customer service.  Sales and Sales support are 
suppose to find out in the next couple of weeks...

Not too happy of a place right now...

dale

    Re 520
    
    That's what I meant to imply, and as other replies
    suggest, maybe management is saving now to distribute
    the money across smaller packages later. 
    
    A good friend who's in senior management at
    a competing firm put it this way.  "I think DEC 
    has an excellent chance to come back.  But they've got
    to cut 40,000 people.  Then I'd really feel confident 
    about it happening."
    
    The current cut-backs don't come close to that number,
    and they don't appear to even approach the 15,000 that was
    bandied about in the press.  Things will get *really* ruthless
    if we don't show some signs of turnaround this quarter.
    Not that there's any alternative...

    From what I've seen, they are approaching 10,000-15,000.  2 out
    of 16 is 12.5%.  In my area we've lost, through SERP + layoffs,
    12 out of 70 or 80, which is in the same range.  10%-15% of
    100,000 or so total people is 10,000-15,000 people.  It sounds
    small only because it's so spread out; add up the whole company,
    and it's a lot.

    	Not only are the numbers less than what I expected, but many of
    those tapped on the shoulder have found other jobs in the company
    before being laid off, making the number of people actually leaving the
    company even less. Here in VMS, the final number of people let go
    seemed about half of what was originally discussed, maybe less. Same
    seems to be true for TNSG and Christ's group here in ZKO. Now, those
    last two groups have been told to expect a second wave in mid to late
    September when the budget is finalized and final decisions have been
    made with respect to project cancellations. After September, I guess we
    wait and see if we're given enough time to regroup before they hit us
    again (although no further layoffs are planned).

U.S. Software Product Services notifications were made this week.  We are
losing six of 35 plus at least one open req.  We lost one to SERP.  Not sure
how management can justify their position but they just brought in two college
new hires.  I'm still shaking my head over all of this but it doesn't surprise
me anymore.  When we had our meeting with Personnel, a manager from another
group was present...our own management didn't even show up.

Regardless of how I feel or what I think, it's adios for me on Friday and on
with my life.

Judy

    Just think....this will be the 3rd Xmas (holiday) season with
    the layoff damper hovering over it....

	Re .532
    
>>    Does anyone one know if TFSO people can sue DEC on age discrimination?

		Sure.  Why not?
   		Personally, I'd rate the chance of success as very low.

		Jim
    
    

    As I understand it, you don't get "the package" unless you sign a
    waiver of any 'right' to sue Digital. The company is actually looking
    at issues such as that (age discrimination) to see that they DON'T
    occur.

    
    I believe you will find an employee who has no alternative but to sign
    the papers would be considered to be under duress.  This would 
    certainly be prejudicial to the legality of such an agreement.  
    
    Of course you need a six figure laywer to get results.
       
    

Digital employees are under no obligation to sign the papers.
They are being *paid* to sign the papers.  There already
terminated, they are already being paid for 9 weeks and
get whatever other benefits go along with that.  What is
Digital going to do if they don't sign?  Digital is not
going to give them *extra* benefits.  Hardly very coercive,
in my opinion.

Why is it that everyone always wants to sue?  You mean there's
no reasonable explanation other than age discrimination why
Digital would hire college graduates?  Of course there is.
Fresh ideas.  Digital has *always* hired college graduates
during *all* times - including previous hiring freezes.

It really does bother me that people always want to sue.

Collis

    
    Sign and you get a package, don't sign you get 9 weeks.  Refusing to 
    sign isn't much of an option.  Not coercive? 

    Even as we say goodbye to employees of long-standing,
    it's *essential* to hire college and university graduates.  
    They bring leading-edge ideas, as well as fresh enthusiasm.
    A steady stream of college hires is vital in an industry that
    changes as quickly as ours.  Wall Street and the press would 
    take it as a very bad sign if we cut ourselves off from this 
    well-spring.  And our competition would love it.  
    
    I'm just happy we can still attract college hires...
    

Before you holler "age discrimination" you'd better see what the age
distribution of TFSO'd employees was.  One guy in my department who
was TFSO'd is 25 or so.

    I've started a new topic (2090) on college hires FWIW.

    On the subject of the no sue agreement that TFSO people have to sign
    to get their money. I've heard mutterings (of unknown validity) that
    those contracts are not always legally enforceable. I've also heard
    that some people have negotiated better deals after refusing to sign
    those forms. But that may very well be urban legend. I'd talk to a
    real lawyer before even thinking of threatening a law suit. They're
    tricky business.

    		Alfred

    i've also heard rumors of a class actin suit, where a team of lawyers
    are contacting TFSO'd employees.
    
    FWIW

    
    Re: several
    
    	I've noticed a very large number of response here and in
    WARIOR::JOBS from people with 18 - 25 years experience being TSFO.
    That would put a lot of them in the 40+ age range.  Whether this is
    discrimination or not it seems like a tragic waste of experience that
    will not be available to help turn this ship around.  Do they expect
    the college hire to help with their 'new ideas'?  This doesn't seem to
    apply to filling management positions.  I think it's a wage expense
    reduction program as college hires are paid about half what the
    veterans get.
    

    before DEC, i worked in a machine shop that had a practice of laying
    off folks after 1 year, and hiring new folks....guess what, he first 
    review for a pay raise was at 1 year.  I was hired to replace a guy 
    who had 11 months inand was fired for an "attitude problem"....I was
    of course started at their starting wage.  I worked there 11 months.
    Shortly after I left, the union was brought in ans the place went belly
    up within 2 years.  It does happen in some places.  Another scenario
    is the job with the 90 day evaluation period.  Dog kennels who board
    animals are famous for this.  they get permanent help for the summer
    busy season, and evaluate their folks out after 90 days.

Well, if you accept the argument (elsewhere in this file) that
the industry now needs a bunch of programmers who are well
acquainted with PC software and can crank out PC applications,
then it seems to follow that you're better off with a bunch of
low-cost college kids (who have probably used PCs, Macs and whatever to 
do their homework assignments) than a bunch of expensive superannuated
Digits who have been used to systems which are going the way
of the dodo.


dave (one of the old farts)

    This reply is being posted for a member of the noting community who
    wishes to remain anonymous.  If you would like to reply directly to the
    author, send your reply to me and I will forward it on.  Unless
    otherwise specified, your identification will be left on the message.

    Bob - Co-moderator DIGITAL
    


Someone suggested that this notesfile and this note would be a good place
to put this.

This past Monday a number of Customer Service engineers were TFSO'd at
our field site. It was stated that the selections were based on
performance. One of the TFSOers was absolutely stunned as they believed 
their performance to be adequate to avoid layoff. They were told that their
layoff was a done deal. The TFSOd person asked their manager if they were sure
that they had their facts straight on their review. The manager said that she
had 'went up the ladder' to make sure that all was correct.

After a couple of dejected days at home they went back to their manager and
asked for some formal information on where they stood, in terms of performance,
compared to the other employees. The manager indicated that she would
'go up the ladder' to find out the requested information. The result?



The targeted person has been un-TFSO'd due to a 'mistake' in calculations.

Really makes one wonder if the 'higher-ups' are on the ball or not.

    

     
    RE:541
    
    This is pretty sad , don't these laywers have any other ambulance to
    chase???  

    
    I recently had the opportunity to discuss the LAYOFFS (tfso? What the
    hell is that? CALL IT LIKE IT IS) with an engineer involved in
    communicating with Field Service all over the planet. The numbers amaze
    me! How can Digital expect to meet DECservice commitments when they
    just FIRED 25% of their most experienced Field Service Engineers?
    
    The comment was made, "It was a witch-hunt for T5's." Ok, so some of
    them needed to go, but shouldn't poor performance be dealt with as an
    on-going deal? We lost some really good talent, and Customers (remember
    them?) are going to notice, and vote with their feet. You get what you
    pay for, or you move on.
    
    RE: Bob Palmer's comment about "concentrating on our core competencies." 
        Was there a mention of a "Service Organization"? I don't think so.
    	
    .mike.

    re: "Services Succes" versus "Services down-sizing"
    
    Let's face it folks, although that DIGITAL SERVICES represents
    the merger of (former) CUSTOMER SERVICES, ex-FIELD SERVICE
    with ex-SWAS,Advisory.etc or whatever called in Europe, US...etc.
    the CS part is less associated with the success and future need
    than the other. This is not only true because pre-sales people
    know better how to sell themselves than post-sales people.
    (Could it be otherwise ?), It's also a factor of present technology/
    economy. Just have a look a growth figures for PSS (product-services,
    the bug-fixing, customer care business) versus BSS,etc etc..
    Perhaps the name change from "Customer Services" to "Digital Services"
    is a hint (painting on the wall) as well.
    
    Fred
                             

Please; what does TSFO and SERP stand for?

Simon

    I can't help but be negative here and feeling I know Digital
    (somewhat), but seriously: ( a two parter here) a) how many old timers
    are really REALLY willing to change and be part of the new DEC and b)
    does DEC see what spending the thousands of dollars retraining an old
    timer with x salary and not knowing if the return would be advantageous
    to them or does DEC KNOW that new, young blood anxious for work and
    starting at x-n salary would be highly more beneficial economically??
    
    I believe the second scenario as I'v esen it happen this way too often
    in many other job markets.
    
    I also believe the second scenario is the way to go.
    
    Reg. 

    I often read notes in this conf that I don't agree with, but I
    usually just shake my head and go on. But, I can't let this one
    pass.
    
    re: .548
    
    The assertion that pre-sales people know how to sell themselves
    better that post-sales people is illogical, and, infact, verges
    on the absurd. The CS Engineer IS the product, and these people
    must sell themselves each and everytime they go onto a customer's
    site. If they aren't successfull at this, the customer is likely
    to find another service vendor when it's time to renew his
    maintenance agreement. There are LOTS of companies competing for
    our service revenue these days. Soon many of them will have new
    employees that Digital has spent many $$ training.
    
    In 14 years with Digital, I've seen many more customers decide to
    buy additional products (H/W, S/W, and Services) from Digital
    because they had a good Customer Services account rep taking care
    of them (often the same one for years, ie: "old timer"), than because
    the salesperson-of-the-week breezed in and dazzled them with proposals
    that they couldn't refuse.
    
    I'm sick and tired of the attitude displayed by many in this company
    that Custmer Service (or Field Service ... whatever) Engineers are
    the company slave boys, and that the most experienced ones are too
    old, over paid, and un-trainable. Theirs are the faces that come to
    most customers' minds when someone says DEC, because they are out there
    with the customers when there are problems. The software's broke?
    RDC can't fix it over the phone? Heck, we'll just LOR it! Then the
    old, over paid, un-trainable CS eng down there at the bottom of the
    hill gets hit by another rolling turd. So he, or she HANDLES IT!
    The order got screwed up? No cables you say? Heck, just call logistics
    and order 'em! To the customer, DEC is DEC. They don't care that the
    local Digital Services office just bought 'em a bunch of cables 
    because the order wasn't configured correctly. The CS persan
    HANDLED IT! So, go ahead and spread CS so thin that all they can
    do is rush from site to site and swap parts. They won't be there to
    pull anyone else's fat out of the fire, and all the customer's that
    used to get <2 hr response will now get excuses, probably from some
    seven dollar an hour pimple faced whiz kid. See how long it takes them
    to take their business else where.
    

    regarding .551; you've got MY VOTE!   Point to ponder: What's a "WAR"
    without the soldiers!  And for anyone who doesn't believe that DEC
    isn't in a WAR FOR SURVIVAL, I can point you to the growing list of
    "casualties".  Give me the front line troops, ANYTIME!
    
    Keep "delighting" those Customers!

    re .550
    
    It's not sufficient to change the ICs if the management does not
    define their goals and expectations differently. And this must
    happen from unit mgmt to the top.
    Active employees try to be good at the things where their performance
    is mesured. In today's climate it's even clearer then before.
    Doing what is seen to be good may make a difference of keeping
    your job or not.
    
    If management says that fire fighting is good, then we have a fire
    brigade, if management defines that policy makers are good, then we
    will before long have a highly political entity. Technical skills
    development is not different.
    
    Both old and new people pursue for the right things if the management
    defines what they want both in the sense of the products / services
    and how much it can cost (ie. take resources) AND mesure people based
    on achievements (both personal and support to others) towards these goals.
    We learn from what we do and perhaps something else if there is time left
    for fun.
    
    And while at the top level this goal setting / mesuring can happen in 
    rather general terms it must translate to a very concrete everyday
    guidance when it penetrates to a unit manager / IC level without loosing
    the spirit and goal in between. It's far more important to have the
    real willingness to change at the management level then in IC level.
    
    Have we achieved that in Digital?
    
    --Ritva
    

    Re: .549
    
    TFSO = Transition Financial Separation Option
    
    SERP = Special Early Retirement Program

    Wake up sports fans!! Digital does not care at all about you or me.
    Stop the crying and complaning about layoffs. I cannot understand why
    there is so much complaning about the package, it is not bad but guess
    what if you have not gotten a package you are out of luck cause when
    they get to you and me there wont be any package, just a get the hell
    out of here we dont need you anymore.
    
    The Digital magic is gone forever, DEC is just another company like
    others it will lay off and hire based on short term needs with no
    regard to employees. We are nothing more than expensive capitol
    equipment that can be disposed of and replaced on an as needed basis.
    That is the way other companies operate why not DEC. They owe us
    nothing.
    
    We are still bloated with the business prevention manager types who
    cover for each other and have no regard for DEC or the customer, just
    protecting their empire. Guess what, their the last to go. The reason
    is simple, if a manager decides to get rid of a manager they have to
    admit they made a mistake by keeping the person all along which then
    calls thier decesion making ability in to question. Rather they become
    some type of program/process overhead, no value added manager. But they
    made it through the layoff. They keep a well paid job with good
    benifits. Their income and family security are preserved which is ALL
    they care about, not you and I.
    
    Look around you, where ever you are and notice the level 2 manager
    types who have changed titles and moved 400 feet every 2 years. There
    numbers are growing. I have worked in 3 major cities for DEC and the
    local mafia's are intact in all of them. This is DECs real problem.
    Most of the managers out there making decisions on our future make them
    on a political basis, whats in it for them only. They would not know a
    customer if it bit them in the rump. Revenue? they try to make the
    numbers lie in order to make them look good. How many managers do you
    know who get shadow revenue credit from other groups? Someone else does
    the work, adds the value, books the order, services the customer, lives
    with the margin and these heros get shadow credit for managing some
    obscure process that inside DEC looks like they are adding value. The
    customer, remember them? the guy who pays our bills? does not even know
    these managers exist.
    
    As long as this continues we will remain in the pickle were in, can we
    pull out of it? Maybe if Bob Palmer sees this then he can act. I am
    sitting on a pile of DEC stock that has dropped in value, my salary in
    real terms has dropped as a result of raises they keep getting pushed
    out. They may rate you a 2 but it does not mean they have to give good
    raises. I am sure many of you are in the same boat.Imagine how the poor
    slob investor feels who has a truck load of DEC stock in their
    retirement fund. Their just hoping it goes back to $62 dollars so they
    can bail out.
    
    As long as upper managers are only listening to other managers and not
    the customers, remember them?, the non-sence will continue. The carnige
    will continue for some time to come.
    
    The best time to look for a job is when you have one and now may be
    just the time. Dont wait for the system to get you, control your own
    destiney. If you feel you can help DEC out of the mess then do it! if
    you feel helpless then now is the time to leave. Protect yourself and
    your family thats your job not DECs.
    
    Regarding services layoffs. I was told by some engineering types back
    in 1984 that field service was not the place to be because the
    equipment was going to be as reliable as TV sets and microwave ovens.
    Well were there and those layoffs are to be expected.
    
    Now lets either work to save DEC or get lost!

    .551
    
     Thank you very much. We have been cut and cut and now more cuts.
    Revenues in Field Service (I know wrong name . We're opposed to 
    change for the sake of change.) are again up if I remember correctly.
    There are no parts in our stockrooms, our cars are falling apart,
    training is a joke, customer contracts are in worse shape than ever
    and its getting worse while "administrative and general" costs
    keep rising. 
    
     We have lost many good engineers and our customers know it! I have
    a customer that works for a major Digital account that put it best
    after all the efforts of the so called New Digital had failed.
    He called me and asked "when do you grey haired guys come over and
    fix this". We did!!
    
     Anyone who thinks we're not needed, overpaid and easily replaced
    by parts changers is welcome to come field (pun intended) a few calls.
    We could use the help!
    
    Reis Ritz
    T5 (240d..for the new wave folks)

    re .551,552
    Believe me, having started myself 1970 in FS, I'd love to agree with
    you, but what I see happening (which I don't like either) isn't
    that "customer care" attitude anylonger.
    /fred  

    
    
       No doubt the equipment that customers are buying today are more
    reliable. But now the account representatives have to know: multiple
    types of networks, licensing arrangements, site audits, VAXsim and Spear
    accountability, non-DEC add-ons for account retention, and even
    (the one that sales hates the most!) non-DEC systems. 
       That's right - there's a lot of Sun systems and tons of desktop
    PC's (DEC and non-DEC) that are helping to keep generate service 
    revenue, regardless of who is selling what. It's no big surprise to me
    that customer services is cutting back, compare the revenue on a RF73
    disk to a RM05 from ten years ago. I just hope that, for the sake of
    the company, that customers don't see a drop in their level of service
    they've become accustomed to. As the service revenue shows, a customer 
    is still willing to pay for the peace of mind a competent service
    organization can provide. 
    
    							-John R-

    re: .546
    
    They are probably the lawyers who just got the boot here in Colorado.
    As I understand, the whole legal dept. got the ax out here...
    
    Big smileys on this one....  o^o
    				  >
    				 \_/
    Regards!
    

    
    re: 559
    
    Do you feel better now.....
    
    
    	fred deady

    Well in the Md. district they TFSO'd 13 engineers in DCO ,3 in DWS
    and 5 in BJO. I don't know the split ie Gov't vs Commercial but not
    included in these numbers wwere 2 managers. 
    
     Mike Turro (hanging in here) |
    				 /|\
    				\o^o/
    				  <
    				\___/
    				  U
     

    RE: .561-
    
    	Operative words in your "bodycount" message: 		   >"not
    included in these numbers wwere 2 managers."
    
    	...as if anyone missed it...
    
    Phil

     RE:.550

   > I can't help but be negative here and feeling I know Digital
   > (somewhat), but seriously: ( a two parter here) a) how many old timers
   > are really REALLY willing to change and be part of the new DEC and b)
   > does DEC see what spending the thousands of dollars retraining an old
   > timer with x salary and not knowing if the return would be advantageous
   > to them or does DEC KNOW that new, young blood anxious for work and
   > starting at x-n salary would be highly more beneficial economically??
    
   > I believe the second scenario as I'v esen it happen this way too often
   > in many other job markets.
    
   > I also believe the second scenario is the way to go.
    
   > Reg. 

    	Well Reg. let me tell you how it is.  Most old timers (that I
    associate with) as you seem so fond of calling anybody with experience 
    would gladly be retrained than be out on the street.  Just because
    somebody is over 40  doesn't mean that they are no longer useful to the
    company.  As far as you believing that your second scenario is the way
    to go lets see if you still believe that when the shoe is on the other
    foot.  Who was it that said youth was wasted on the young?
                  
    Joe 

	As one of the over 40 gang, I can tell you from experience that
I can pick up new technology and skills a lot faster than some of the
younger folks comming down the pike. Knowledge builds on knowledge.
Thats what experience is all about. My codeing is much tighter and less
error prone, although I no longer pull all nighters. Again I've had
the time to learn the right way to do things. Some of it was very painfull.

	A company NEEDS a good mix of new AND experienced people. You need the
energy and DREAMS of the people who are just comming into this field. You
also need the experienced (although more jaded ;-) )folks to help direct
and focus that energy and prevent the same mistakes from happening
all over again.

	However this applies to almost all aspects of life, and of course
has been a source of conflict since we were jumping around in trees. 

	I don't think letting go of the older workforce and bringing in new
blood has anything to do with us "old timers" getting fossilized brains,
its short sighted cost accounting. You can get 2 or 3 young heads for 
1 old head. Also, you don't have to pay all those pesky retirement
benifits that have no ROI.

Just my $0.02
-John-

    I was told by a supervisor here that people are less productive when
    they get to 50 and that is why they are being targetted.

    Re: .-1
    
    Get that supervisor's name!  Any practice of that sort would be illegal
    age discrimination.

    RE: .565
    
    >I was told by a supervisor here that people are less productive when
    >they get to 50 and that is why they are being targetted.
    
    Of course, this does not apply to supervisors because nobody expects
    them to be productive anyway.
    

    The is no age discrimination legislation in the UK, which is where
    Ms. Hunt is located.

		The history of Field Service (Customer Service) is that it 
requires *experience* to do the job.  This idea isn't new and is practiced
across the board by all vendors I know.  Normal "ramp up" time for an engineer
is about two years and that is just to keep your head above water....its not
winning business.  Five years would be more appropriate for a full fledged,
contributing Field person.  I've been 'in' the field for slightly more than
20 years now and without fear of contradiction I can say that the more time 
spent doing "warm body" work the better you are at it.  I cannot tell you
how many times I have had to go out on a call on a piece of equipment that
I've never seen or heard of.....and we who do that normally get it fixed.

		Can DEC afford to lose people who can do this?  We are going to
find out very soon.  

Dave

Re .555

Certain portions of this entry remind me of a case studies I read
many moons ago while taking a course called "Soviet Economics",
which was an oxymoron in itself.

Is it really this bad? Shadow value is the problem everywhere, not
just amongst managers.

-PHiL 

    1st: I'm close to 40.
    
    2nd: what I intended started to happen: selling oursleves.
    
    3rd: does anyone believe that DEC would come out ahead if they
    retrained people versus training new people? with new ideas?
    with newer, fresher knowledge?  Some, maybe most, believe that it would
    not matter either way.  Okay, I believe some of that- but it's cheaper
    to train the new rather the old and get a longer return from the new
    then the old going back to old ways. ( someone doesn't have to be 40+
    to be old, a 28 yr old w/ 10 yrs exp could be classifed "old" here)
    
    4th: I believe a good shock to the system always makes it pulse better.
    
    5th: By the time we reach 40, we shouldn't have to work for anyone
    else.  Just relax, write, contract out, do what you want until you expire.
    
    6th: Don't be afraid to learn how to do it.
    
    Reg.

    re: .571
    
    	"5th:"
    
    So .... when are you leaving?
    

    when you do an elf and no longer find me here (or I get laid off
    first).  
    
    

    
    .569 (Dave)
    
    ..... and how many calls did NOT take place because an experienced
    FE recognized the problem over the phone and said to the customer, 
    "try this..."?
    
    

    Latest rumor and some local sleuthing turns up next distraction to
    hit the field week of (/!$/(@ (suspected TFSO -- Target For the
    Slaying Offender -- sales/support).
    
    Did you get the hint? 8-)
    
    

    RE: .574.
    
    		Exactly!
    
    Dave

    
    Re: Who said yout is wasted on the young.
    
    It was Mark Twain who also said that when he was seventeen he
    thought how dumb his father was and when he was twenty-one he
    was stunned at how much his father had learned in only four years.
    
    Steve
    

    heard the next date is 10/2 and this time more at the mgmt levels

    Has anyone heard about this monday-9/14 or 9/21?  We were expecting to
    get hit, but so far-nothing.  Is this round over until Oct?
    
    Thanks,
    RS

    When we were hit last Tuesday, personel said they were coming
    back the 14th to get sales.

    re: .579
    
    What organization is 10/2 aimed at?  Sales?  Services?

    Re:.578
    
    	Thanks Steve for the life of me I couldn't remember who said 
    that.  
    
    Joe

    The Charlotte Observer
    Thursday, September 10, 1992
    
    by staff writer Jennifer Ffrench Parker
    
    
    Struggling Digital Equipment plans to lay off 53 more Carolinas workers
    
    
    Digital Equipment Co. will lay off 53 Carolinas workers, 35 of them in
    Charlotte, within the next month.
    
    Nikki Richardson, the company's information manager, said the workers'
    jobs are being eliminated as part of an ongoing corporate downsizing.
    
    "We are consolidating and eliminating redundancies," Richardson said
    Wednesday. Technological changes and weak demand for computers are
    behind many of the changes, she said.
    
    In Charlotte, the company is closing its Enterprise Integration Center,
    which creates software to customers' specifications.
    
    The center's workers, mostly computer programmers, were told last month
    to start looking for work. Richardson said their work will be done in
    other parts of the company's Charlotte operation.
    
    The remaining 18 workers to be laid off will come from the company's 11
    other Carolinas sites, she said.
    
    The latest reduction will leave Digital with 175 Charlotte workers,
    down from 210. Three years ago, the company had 244 workers in
    Charlotte. Since September 1989, it has eliminated 23,000 jobs
    worldwide, leaving it 137,000 workers in 97 countries.
    
    Just last month, the company sold its 475-employee plant in Greenville,
    S.C., to a joint-venture of AMP Inc. of Harrisburg, Pa., and AKZO Co.
    of Hauppauge, N.Y. Richardson said those employees are still employed
    at the plant, which makes printed wiring boards.
    
    The sale and the layoffs have reduced the company's Carolinas work
    force by half. It began the year with 986 Carolinas workers.
    
    In New York Stock Exchange trading Wednesday, Digital closed at $37.75
    a share, up $2.125.

    	It strikes me that we seem to be in continuous-layoff mode rather
    than laying off people in waves. I guess the only way we'll be able to
    tell is if the layoffs actually stop at some point and people are given
    a chance to come up for air and figure out how to proceed. This
    technique is very clever. You can't just sit in anticipation of the
    next wave. You either need to worry all the time, not at all, or just
    punt and leave the company. Perhaps the latter is a big part of the
    picture that we've overlooked. Upper management is shaking the tree to
    see what falls out. Cancelling outings, LTD costs going up, I just
    passed a birthday which increased my life insurance payments by 50%,
    and an improving economy outside of DEC will cause many to leave
    voluntarily. I've seen a lot of attrition lately...Unfortunately, a lot
    of good people are leaving. Of course, this layoff technique has a
    wonderful effect on morale.