Conference 7.286::digital

    I couldn't agree more.  If management in this company truly understood
    the impact of PC's and the absolute necessity for EVERYONE to know
    hom to use one, they'd GIVE them to us, period.  But what hope is
    there for a company that still makes its sales force "justify" the
    acquisition of a lap-top or cellular phone......
    
    Hell, I can't even get the proper equipment at work....well to be fair
    I was able to dump my VT100 last year, and upgrade to a VT220.  How
    exciting!
    
    Sorry, but this is my ultimate hot button.  I honestly believe I'm the
    only person in this facility without a workstation or P.C. .....and
    would you believe I work for SOFTWARE Product Services?

    I haven't looked into this deeply myself, but my impression from a fast
    scan of the referenced flyer as it was on its way to my recycling bin
    :-) was that the prices were above customer levels, on definitely
    obsolete DOS PC gear.  
    
    If this impression was true, I agree it is a contemptible program.  
    
    This affair smacks of a decision made by someone with no first-hand,
    USER-level knowledge of what was to be offered, and/or no respect for
    the intelligence of his/her colleagues.   
    
    I should very much like to hear a business justification of this offer
    by the Powers That Be.  And/or a report on how successful (:-) the
    "campaign" is.
    
    Do they expect us to be blind to what the free market offers?  Or so
    blinded by our loyalty to the company that we would throw away our
    money to lower inventory?
    
    BTW I subscribe 100% to the views of .1 on the CRUCIAL importance of
    the relevant DEC personnel becoming literate in the personal computing
    culture that is all around us, and which is gradually merging into, and
    in the process of taking over, the workstation culture.
    
    PS -- See the string 1076.* entitled "Is it 'PC' to use a Mac at DEC?"
    in this file, and a similar string with the same basenote title in the
    NODEMO::MARKETING file...  Many folks from the Field agreed with you
    THEN, Dick! 

    In 1990 and 1991 I asked Apple for a copy of their National Account
    Employee Purchase Program package. The price list they sent was intended 
    to be a discount to Digital employees as part of the Employee Purchase 
    Program. A brief glimpse of ROUTES::MACINTOSH topic on EPP (I think it's 
    around note 9) will give you an idea of what Mac users think of EPP. The
    "street price" is almost always cheaper. I'd *never* use the EPP for a
    purchase.
    
    For example, I have before me the February 1991 price list for an Apple
    high-resolution RGB monitor. Last year they "discounted" it to $699.00.
    Today I happened to be calling around for the same thing and got a
    $649.00 quote. Only one of the 20 places I called had it for more than
    the "discounted" EPP price.
    
    I am not for ridding ourselves of the *concept* behind EPP. If we could
    get something close to the "dealer acquisition cost" that would keep
    EPP's phones ringing off the hook. Even if they met us somewhere between
    the street price and dealer acquisition we'd have what I would call a
    "benefit" for working at DEC. As of now EPP is deceptive. It makes an
    employee think he is getting a bargain when most folk who have shopped
    around know better.
    
    John

    My wife has been insisting that this is the year we buy a computer.
    So we're shopping around for something around $2-3K that will handle
    two kids, her typing for various committees and my water district
    management.  I got the flyer and went over it with her.  VTX yielded
    nothing at all like the part numbers advertised, and seemed quite
    outdated and uncompetitive.  Phone calls to the number in the flyer
    got me to people who had no idea what i was talking about.  They
    didn't even know the model numbers.  Finally routed to some EPP
    folks, and i listed the configuration.  The 433pc base system 
    requires addition of hard and floppy disks, monitor and OS.
    Nice machine, but i can do better elsewhere.  And i'm ready
    to buy.  If this is what they call marketing and selling,
    i can see why we're in serious trouble...mwr

    re .4
    	If you are serious about a PC, and haven't checked out NAC::IBMPC
    notes, I suggest you do.  I am sure you will find the people there much
    more helpful than EPP (IMO).  They can direct anyone to much better
    deals on high quality PC's.
    
    Jim Morton

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....

I just read a couple of new notes (425.25 and 416.11) in the EMPPURPRO
notesfile.   One quotes the flyer as I will too....

	DIGITAL EMPLOYEE PURCHASE PROGRAM
	
	There is only one way you can fully appreciate the outstanding value
	and performance of a Desktop Direct personal computer.

	Buy one, experience for yourself the superior quality, graphics and 
	reliability. Best of all, know that you're getting your PC at an 
	astonishingly low price. A price we're reducing even futher through 
	our Employee Purchase Program.

	For more information....

	Not Only will you be getting the absolutely best PC value around,
	you'll be contributing to the success of Desktop Direct. So call
	today!

As this person describes, they called EPP and they said the brochure was
INCORRECT!!!!!..that EPP has nothing to do with the Desktop Direct price,
sorry, boo-hoo-hoo etc. and that somebody is looking into the mistake.

The other gives the cheery news that EPP will NOT offer payroll deduction.

Is EPP a business?  If so, it shows contempt for its customers.
Whatta way to run a business eh?  Why should DEC support a 
business like this?  I don't see how it could be profitable. 
    
Is EPP a benefit?  Not now, but it could be.  If it's made a 
REAL benefit, then it is deserving of the funds to administrate 
it like any other benefit.

As it stands, it has be either overhauled, or eliminated.
Sounds like a DELTA idea....it would save DEC quite a bit of money.

Mark

    My wife works for a retail chain. They get 25% discounts always (even
    on sale items). several times per year (selected days) the discount is
    50%. SO WHAT'S THE RATIONALE!!!
    
    	If our employees buy from us, even at cost or below, then they
    don't buy from our competitors!!!!!
    
    	I just bought a PC from a competitor. I would rather have bought
    from DEC, but I plain couldn't afford it!!!!!!!!!!!!

	The problem is that our most senior management does
	not use PCs.  They think they are toys.  Why would
	they want to offer toys to their workforce ?

	Since "all the world needs is a good word processing
	program, a VAX and some terminals", then offering PCs
	is just a waste of time....

	Our management is not committed to having a workforce
	that knows computers and applications beyond their
	immediate job.  It's been that way since computers
	became affordable for home use....

	.....and it'll always be that way.

	Just buy your PCs from a good discounter.  The DEC
	prices are, historically, jokes.

	Steve H

    Who are the managers responsible for the EPP?  Maybe they should
    understand how everyone feels.

re .7:

>    My wife works for a retail chain. They get 25% discounts always (even
>    on sale items). several times per year (selected days) the discount is
>    50%. SO WHAT'S THE RATIONALE!!!

I'm not defending EPP prices, but the markup on PCs is *much* less than the
markup that department stores, specialty stores, and even discount stores take.

    Being a bit optimistic, isn't Digital only now starting to actually
    build their own PCs?  And, aren't the ones we're selling now pretty
    much completely built by someone else?  What I'm getting at is that as
    Digital sales of PCs goes up and as Digital begins to really make PCs
    we MIGHT see EPP become competitive as Digital's costs go down.  Up to
    now, I've assumed that EPP prices were so high because Digital's costs
    were so high.
    
    Steve

    OK, I'll take a couple of shoots here......
    
    First off, I have worked both sides of this issue.
    From the consumer's side and the retail-sale side (Radio Shack).
    
    From a Consumer's point view...... the prices are always
    lower on the other side of the COMPUTER SHOPPER'S CATALOG.
    DEC (who was/is selling Tandy/Radio Shack PC) has packaged
    their DECstation 3xx/4xx systems for the business office
    (and of various sizes). DEC prices are high because -one
    Tandy's prices are high, -two Digital value added (come
    on now, if you agree with or not there is some value added).
    Unfortunately, I am hearing from folks inside DEC and out side
    people that our DEC/TANDY systems just do not cut it.
    
    For the other view.... I am in the process of comparing ALL the
    PC packages offered in the Feb'92 issue of COMPUTER SHOPPER'S CATALOG.
    You could go crazy real fast trying to pick the best one. There is
    too much to consider. Best thing to do is -one PICK ONE and buy it
    -two keep waiting and dreaming. Problem with these choices are;
    -one today's "able-to-buy-technology" is last year's news -two
    YOU WILL NEVER BUY ONE.
    
    Thing I do not fully inderstand is that brochure....
    Am I to find sales leads and then turn it over to 'who' ?
    NO WAY PAL ! As a ol' salesman told me once "I saw him, I
    sold him -PERIOD.
    
    RE: back a few.
    YES I also heard that DEC will build PC overseas for sales in USA.
    
    As to big discounts... I have heard them all.
    Some good deals with sad endings.
    Some poor deals but yea - They now have a PC for whatever.
    
    To get back to TANDY a minute, they have not learned..
    They will be introducing to NEW MACHINES for their stores to sell.
    2500SX/25Mhz and a 4825SX/25Mhz. Big deal. Sorry, put it is true.
    This is two year old tech at todays inflated prices.
    2500SX/25Mhz - $1600 w/.52pitch/85MB/DOS-5/WIND-3/MicroSOFT Works/Mouse.
    4825SX/25Mhz - $1999 no monitor. BUT is upgradeable to DX ?Mhz.
    Pick ANY catalog and get the above for hundreds less and with more.
    
    Got to run,
    Rick A

    I've found that the best prices on Employee-purchase systems usually
    occur right around end-of-life for the product.  Anyone remember the
    VT180 (Robin)?  
    
    Apple gives their employees a hefty discount on a limityed number of
    systems per year.
    
    Microsoft sells software to their employees at basically what it costs
    to make the kit.  (Like Works for $10, Word for $15, etc).
    
    Sad but true.....
    

    I priced the DEC "Discounts" and am convinced that anyone that
    buys from them doesnt know what the market prices actually are
    in the PC world... too bad we cant really get a fair shake.
    	/john

    If you think that EPP is a benefit, then I have some ocean front
    property in Arizona that I'll sell you. Since I got this fantastic Desktop
    PC flyer I have made at least 6 calls and I can't  a straight answer
    from anyone. If you read the Flyer closely you will find gross
    technical mistakes. Who proof read this thing???  ie: I didn't know
    that a 360kb Floppy Drive could read/write both high and low
    densities!!!!! We must have some very unique engineering here folks!!!
    I didn't know that DEC could be that insensitive, they gouge customers
    and now want to gouge the people who work for them.
    	IMHO
    	John

    In my opinion, the company is being disingenuous here.  We know and we
    presume the people who put those "the absolutely best PC value around"
    letters know that the street price for equivalent systems is lower than
    the EPP prices.
    
    It would be one thing to make them available, but to characterize them
    as "the absolutely best PC value around" would be deceitful if it was
    intentional.
    
    It's one thing to tell consumers, who know "caveat emptor", but
    employees don't have the expectation that they will be misled by their
    employer regarding "value".

    Called Apple Computer today just to see what the new EPP prices were.
    They have discontinued the program. They directed my call to an
    authorized Apple dealer in my area and said that I should ask if they
    have any similar program. When I called the two local dealers they had
    no idea what I was talking about.
    
    Re: Note 1764.13 by DENVER::DAVISGB

>   Microsoft sells software to their employees at basically what it costs
>   to make the kit.  (Like Works for $10, Word for $15, etc).
    
    I just might be interested in such a program if DEC offered it. But
    the only reason would be price - if I wanted to get something done I'd
    use a Mac :)
    
    John

      Am I missing something here? I just ordered from EPP this week a
    386SX 20 mhz notebook computer for $1462. This is by far the best price
    I have found for this unit.
    Includes: 2 meg main mem.
              1.44 floppy
              40 meg drive
              2400 baud modem built-in
              Battery pack
              AC adapter
              carring case
              DOS, windows, 
              LCD, VGA TST bacKlight display 
              Catalog price was $2195 I believe
    
      Compare: Dell computer $2499
               PC Brand $1995 (25 mhz, no modem, no battery pack)
               Northgate $2195 (1 meg, no modem)
               Compudyne $1999 (60 meg, no modem, no battery pack)
     
    Maybe for some of the PC prices the EPP is not as good. I'm happy :-)
                                                                         

    re:  .18
    
    If the list price was $2195 and you paid $1462, then you got took!
    
    The 'special laptop' message says 50% of clp!
    
    	-Barry-
    

Re: Note 1764.17     by RAVEN1::LEABEATER 
    
>    Re: Note 1764.13 by DENVER::DAVISGB

>>   Microsoft sells software to their employees at basically what it costs
>>   to make the kit.  (Like Works for $10, Word for $15, etc).
    
 >   I just might be interested in such a program if DEC offered it. But
 >   the only reason would be price - if I wanted to get something done I'd
 >   use a Mac :)
  
    
    Well, if you were a microsoft employee, they'd sell you the MAC kits at
    that price too.  Did I say they made just Intel-based software? 
    Microsoft is one of (if not THE) largest suppliers of MAC-based
    software....and they're employees cough up a big 10 BUCKS to use it at
    home....  
    
    
    Gil (My sister SELLS MACS)
    

    re: 18/19
    Is that correct? A 386SX 20Mhz for 1K configured that way? If so
    *that* is a decent price. The desktop ads were indeed yawners.
    	/john

    regarding last noter -1. Where did you get this information ???????
    I have been playing telephone tag to try and find out the real price
    for the 60mb tape backup unit, not unless you have a very private
    unlisted telephone number to call.  If all these prices are sooooo 
    absolutely fantastic then how come the rest of us can't find a real live
    person to talk to????? huh!!!!
    	regards
    	John

    Some EPP buyers (.18) are happy; others (.22) like what they read or
    infer from other actions of the Corporation; still others (.15) can't
    get the requisite info to decide whether or not to buy.  Some (.7) have
    checked prices and have gone elsewhere.  Many onlookers (myself
    included) are curious...
    
    In other strings in this file, management personnel responsible for the
    aspect of DIGITAL being debated somehow "get the word" that their
    function is under discussion; they then join the discussion to learn or
    to teach, or both.  I'm hoping that this will happen in this case, and
    have forwarded a pointer to this string to a friend of mine in the
    Marketing side of our PCI business.
    
    {PostScript:  I, for one, will only start getting SERIOUSLY interested
    in an EPP for personal computers when I can pay less for anything that
    runs application software as powerful, fun, and consistent as what now
    runs on a Macintosh (networked to DEC gear via PATHWORKS of course) --
    and I'm **hoping** that ACE will result -- sooner or later! -- in all
    the good apps porting CONSISTENTLY to the MOTIF look&feel!}

>RE: Note 1764.19 by PCOJCT::MILBERG 
>    re:  .18
>    If the list price was $2195 and you paid $1462, then you got took!
>    The 'special laptop' message says 50% of clp!

    Digital now has two prices for PC stuff, List and Street.  The EPP 50%
    off on the new notebook is 50% off of the list price(USCLP). I haven't
    seen anything that says employees get 50% off on all PC stuff, has
    anyone? 

    If my cost center wanted to buy one of these laptops it would have to pay
    about $1750(std cost + 15%).  
    
    -Bruce

Re: 1764.22     BSS::J_DAVID   -< Is this true? >-
>    A loaded 486 apparently sells now through
>    EPP for around $1300.00. Is this bad?
>    I think the system came with color SVGA, 209 MB HD, 8MB RAM , etc.
    
    If it _is_ true, I'll take a dozen	;7)
    When can I have 'em?
    \Gary

As the author of the base note, I was speaking of DECstation prices.
I just got off the phone with a very helpful Desktop Direct rep. Linda.
Here's the scoop.

Here's what got me going....no mixed messages here, just the facks.

    E.G.  Base System


EPP: PC462-AA        DS325c 25MHZ 80386     1.44MB FLOPPY, IDE       1,231.20
                                                                            
Desktop Direct:      Ditto                                             $900

I didn't check on anything else. 

EPP :== No Benefit  

Mark

    I just happened to be on VTX EPP just now.  I lost connection, but not
    before seeing this:
    
    DJ-PC462-AA        DS325c 2MB/80MB DISK   B/W MS-DOS KYBD VGA     2,490.00
    
    Compare this to the previous note which has:
    
EPP: PC462-AA        DS325c 25MHZ 80386     1.44MB FLOPPY, IDE       1,231.20
                                                                            
Desktop Direct:      Ditto                                             $900

    So, what is this saying?  That the price (to me) for a 386 system just
    went from $2,490/2=1,245 to 900?  This truly would be astonishing.
    
    Things get curiouser and curiouser ...  :)
    
    Steve

    There are some differences in the discriptions, but doesn't seem
    like enough to make up $1220 difference...
    
    >DJ-PC462-AA        DS325c 2MB/80MB DISK   B/W MS-DOS KYBD VGA    2,490.00
    
    Has a monitor and MSDOS.
    
    
    >EPP: PC462-AA     DS325c 25MHZ 80386     1.44MB FLOPPY, IDE    1,231.20
    
    Has no monitor or hard disk.
    
    Jack
    

    That's 'cause I was telling about the BASE system.  Look in VTX
    under a la' carte systems....
    
    DJ- is a package, hard drive, monitor etc.
    
       PART IDENTIFIER:   -PC462-AA.         
       DESC: DECSTA 325C:80386/25MHZ PC462-A2 W/PC4XC-AA PWR CRD,120V
       PRICE BOOK DESCRIPTION: DS325C WITH POWER CORD
    
    
       PART IDENTIFIER: DJ-PC462-AA.  
       DESC: DECSTA 325,MSDOS,PC462-AA,PC4XV-AA,PC4XG-AB,PC4XL-BB,
       PRICE BOOK DESCRIPTION: DS325C 2MB 80MB SCSI MONO
     
    
    Mark

I've been looking for a 486 based PC for home office use. I have found I can
get more of a system for less money through mail order companies and the
local computer shops. Also, the stuff Digital sells is not all FCC Class B
certified (certified for home use), in case that is important to anyone. We have
a bunch of non-Digital PC's in CXO which were purchased because they could be
delivered immediately and cost no more than the internal purchase price. The
people who use them seem to greatly prefer them over the Tandy made systems
Digital sells. Hopefully, the price/performance/quality disadvantage will
disappear now that we are starting to make more of our own systems...

-John

    Are y'all beginning to see now why a lot of our customers are
    absolutely convinced that the inmates are in charge.
    
    All I want to know is where can I get the best deal on a MAC?

    JUST READ IN COMMUNICATIONS WEEK DEC Desktops on sell to
    customers.
    
    DECstation 325C 25MHZ  4MB Memory 3.5 drive and 1.2" drive
    14" color  mouse $3049.00  52mg hard dr.
    
    If they sell it to me for $1524.00 I would buy one.
    
    Bob

    I think it's 50% off U.S. LIST price, -not- off the new, lower,
    DeskTop Direct 1-800-PCBYDEC prices.  This reduces the value of
    the EPP considerably.

    There is a question as to whether the DeskTop Direct prices are
    competitive, but the LIST prices are simply a joke.  Some notes
    have claimed that our EPP prices are actually *higher* than the
    prices we charge to 1-800-PCBYDEC customers.  This would really
    be a travesty if it turns out to be true.

    Also, the systems we sell via 1-800-PCBYDEC come with or can be
    bought with MSDOS 5.0/MSWindows 3.0.  The last time I looked in
    VTX and our regular ordering catalogs, I could not find DOS 5.0
    anywhere - the choices were DOS 3.3 or DOS 4.01.

    re -1
    
>    have claimed that our EPP prices are actually *higher* than the
>    prices we charge to 1-800-PCBYDEC customers.  This would really
>    be a travesty if it turns out to be true.
    
     Please check for yourself if you don't believe me.  It is TRUE.
    
     Mark
    

    The EPP, as everyone already knows, is a joke.  They should take it off 
    VTX.  Regarding .33---if you will pay 1500.00 for that system give me a
    call.  I've got plenty of them for you.  Seriously,  you should look 
    around a little more.  You can buy a 386 with 4MB, both floppies, a
    tower case w/230w pwr supply, a 120MB ide hard drive, .28 monitor SVGA
    1024X768 interlaced with a VGA card w/1MB, DOS 5.0 and Windows 3.0 for
    that amount.  These are all with warranty too.
    
    Believe me that I've have tried to buy from DEC but just cant force
    myself to spend just because its DEC.  I also dont see how we can claim
    to have "the best PC around" when we are just now realizing what a
    large market it really is and others have been at it for 10 years now.
    
    Rick
    

O.K., I just got off the phone with Ron Valley, who is listed as Administrative
Assistance in the EPP VTX.  What he said is that Desktop Direct is the ones
who have the last word on employee discounts for the systems in the new Desktop
Direct catalog...meaning NO discount.  The EPP discounts come from DECdirect
packages only.  Of course, you can still buy one from Desktop as if you were a
customer if it is cheaper >^(.  Ron said that the confusion came when Desktop
starting to use the DJ-PCXXX part numbers.  These numbers used to be used only
by DECdirect and Desktop used an FR or FJ part number.  That is why the EPP VTX
states that all that are DJ-PCXXX are eligible.  Ron said that the part number
change wasn't well communicated and therefore the confusion.  He is in the
process of updating VTX to better explain that.  The final note is that there
may be hope for *some* kind of discount from Desktop.  No guarantees and no idea
of the number (you can bet it won't be 50% though), but they are starting to
talk.

Ron

crossposted in IBMPC
	       DIGITAL
	       EPP

    If you're considering a DEC PC, you should read in the current
    Sales Update (VTX SALES_UPDATE_US) about the new DECpc 425st,
    433st and 450st products.  It appears the current family of DECpc
    products will soon be replaced by these new 486- & 586-based models.

   Confusion is right.  Let's try this again.
 
   I called Desktop Direct.  I READ TO THEM the following Part no.

   FR-PC462-AA      which is per APPIX              

   PART IDENTIFIER: FR-PC462-AA.                 
   DESC: DECSTATION 325C  SYS: 25MHZ,1MB RAM,3.5"FLOPPY,120V PWR CD
   PRICE BOOK DESCRIPTION: DECstation 325c

   Price: $900

   EPP  from VTX

   PC462-AA        DS325c 25MHZ 80386     1.44MB FLOPPY, IDE       1,231.20

   
   They can explain all they want about DJ-PJ-FR-FJ nonsense. I know
    plenty about part numbers.
    
   The price is the same, right?  
   
   Mark
   

    
    As an earlier noter pointed out.... imagine what a customer must
    feel like if they had to go through this process... we have 39
    replies and several phone calls and catalog searches, and we STILL
    dont have a price that makes sense... and we all WORK HERE!
    
    As an aside... the 50 Mhz 486s are being put together here and they
    look like very nice boxes!
    	/john

    We will be spening $3K on a pc in a few weeks.
    
    It won't be from DEC.   mwr

We'll be buying a family PC within the next few weeks and I'd feel so much
better getting it from DEC.  I bought a PDT-150 back in '81 and it was a
_GREAT_ deal and I felt pretty proud to own it.  Now, I have kids and they
will be big users and it would be great for them to know that 'their' 
computer came from Dad's employer (I have the feeling they would tell their
friends, etc)

If we get something else, they'll also tell their friends...

    Unfortunately, pricing PC's for employees appears to be at the business
    unit level.  In other words, if they aren't going to make *some* profit
    on it, we won't see discounts below 50% etc. 
    
    I believe other companies have a more global perspective in recognizing
    that employees who understand and use their product, will talk it up
    and sell those products.  Witness Apple (each employee can buy X number
    of CPU's at a hefty discount per year), and Microsoft (employees can
    buy anything for basically what it takes to make it).
    
    Until someone higher up, with *investment* in mind decides to price at
    transfer cost (or similar...like 33% or so), we will continue to see
    near-street prices.  Personally, I'd like to see my company invest in
    it's own people.  Limit us to 1 CPU per person per year, or whatever it
    takes to keep us honest, but invest SOMETHING!
    

    Argue all you like about the cost of PC's... I work for Digital, I use
    a Vax at work, I'd like to have a VAX at home... It seems we are
    actually trying hard not to do this...
    
    
    sigh..
    q
    

re: .44,

>    Argue all you like about the cost of PC's... I work for Digital, I use
>    a Vax at work, I'd like to have a VAX at home... 

    	I would certainly be a lot more productive if I had a VAX at home.
    The catch is that most households have other family members to consider
    in such purchase decisions.  My wife needs/wants a PC, and I too have
    already invested in a certain amount of PC applications (sure would be
    nice to have a computer to run them on).

    	I was curious to notice that the new VAX 4000 runs Softbase and
    this is advertised to run PC applications at around the speed of a
    286.  Has anyone tried Softbase who could comment on the relative
    speed of running a PC application over a VAX like that?

    				    -davo

    
    Like the base noter mentioned, what DEC needs to realize is that making
    the PC packages "attractive and affordable", including payroll
    deduction and real financing for its employees is an investment in
    developing PC skills that at some point, if not now, are going to come
    back to the company.  As someone mentioned, set a limit on the number
    of purchases by an employee/year or some regulation like that.  But
    don't continue to try and brainwash the employees into thinking that it
    is a benefit as an employee to have the EPP.  Either make the EPP
    prices competitive and offer attractive financing, or do away with the
    program.  People are not stupid; at least the majority are not.  Given
    the economic times, etc., people want the best deal they can get.  It's
    not with DEC's EPP.
    
    There's another hidden benefit to making the technology affordable to
    your employees.  And that benefit is marketing and reputation .... does
    it look good for us as a company when as an employee you tell your
    neighbor that you bought a PC from DELL, or wherever, because your own
    company's employee purchase program prices are outrageous?  Or how
    about the situation where you're on a business trip and sitting next to
    some exec. from a customer company.  In course of conversation she/he
    finds out that you work for DEC.  You get to talking about PC's, etc.,
    and you tell the person that you have a ZEOS PC at home.  But to make
    matters worse, you have a Toshiba laptop sitting in front of you on the
    plane.  When they ask why, you tell them that the EPP prices are too
    sky-high and outrageous, and that the laptops are too difficult to get
    as an internal customer.
    
    So not only are there EPP price concerns, and DESKtop direct price
    concerns, etc., but there are also potential image problems with the
    public and customers.  "Why yes, I know I work for Mercedes Benz.  But
    they are too much money even for me as an employee.  That's why I drive
    this Hyundai.  It's affordable, great on gas, and it still gets me to
    where I want to go with all the same features that I could get from a
    Mercedes as an employee."
                                      

    re -1  well said.
    
    So, what can we do about it?  Probably not much
    (looking up from where I am)
    I was thinking about DELTA, then I saw about 4 or 5 
    Dead-On-Arrival DELTA_IDEAS with the exact same proposals.
    
    sigh....
    
    

    Even with DELTA.., The information isn't getting to the right people.
    It gets as far as the administrators of the DELTA program, they
    determine if it is politically correct or what ever. If it doesn't feel
    right to them and their career, it doesn't go anywhere.
    
    The right people have to read these ideas. When they read them, the
    need to follow up on them, rather than dismiss them because they may
    sound/seem bad..... Give the author, of the idea, the opportunity to
    present details of such plans.
    
    This is my opinion..!
    
    Bob G.
    

    
    The person in .45 indeed has a good solution. Digital has a product
    called SoftPC, not Softbase, that allows you to run PC software on any
    VAX or RISC system. So if you have a VAXstation 4000/60 at home (lucky
    you) - then you can open a PC window on it using SoftPC and run an
    extra 75,000 applications right in that window - including Windows 3.0
    and all those apps.
    
    The model 60 goes at low end 386 speed. The 3100/76 and VLC go at
    better than 286 speed. The older machines are a bit slower.
    
    But you are correct - you get the best of both worlds with the ability
    to share files and printers and cut/paste etc.
    
    SoftPC has gained great user acceptance in the marketplace - in fact,
    Microsoft are bundling SoftPC with their NT on MIPS platforms. It is
    Sun microsystems second highest selling product.
    
    If you need more info - try either the wrksys::ws_pc_solutions notes
    file or drop me some mail.
    
    Richard
    

    .49 "(lucky you)" indeed...  How many of us have, or could afford to
    buy, a DEC workstation for use at home?  The point of EPP (or at least
    what I would HOPE would be the point of an affordable, less-than-or-
    equal-to-street-price EPP) is to put PERSONAL computing power in the
    hands of DECcies, as their PERSONAL computers for home usage.  SoftPC,
    however nifty, does not imho meet that particular need.

    There's been a lot of discussion about how difficult it is to get
    prices on the various PC products.  I decided to give it a try.
    
    First, I checked VTX using the EPP section.  There was a special menu
    devoted to the notebook (my area of interest).  Not a long description,
    but enough technical details to make a good comparison with other
    vendors.
    
    Next, I called 1-800 PC BY DEC.  My call was handled very well by the
    rep.  Price for the 386-20 40 MB unit was $1995.  Includes 2400 baud 
    modem, carrying case, battery, charger, Logitech TrackMan, Windows,
    DOS, etc.  Pretty competitive with other vendors.  The PC BY DEC folks
    do not handle employee purchases.  You can argue with that decision,
    but the rep explained things very competently and referred me to
    DECdirect for employee purchases.
    
    So, my next call was 1-800-DIGITAL.  They have a special group to
    handle employee purchases.  I was transferred to that group.  Employee
    price is 50% of list.  Price for the same unit was $1462.  Not bad.
    
    So, what's the big deal?  The whole thing took me less than 15 minutes. 
    I talked to competent people who answered all my question.  They
    explained the various purchase options.  And the prices were
    reasonable.  Besides, it looks like a good product.  I'm sold.
    
    Chet

        
    re -1
    
    In my base note and in my many other entries, I am referring
    to the  *DECstation* prices. I understand about the laptops.
    
    Mark

    re: .51
    
    $1995 x 50% = $997.50
    
    How do they get $1462 ????
    
    DM

    DECdirect offers Digital equipment at USCLP.
    Desktop Direct has their own [street] pricing scheme.
    
    /Ed

    
    re:  .53
    
    	Tax, Shipping & Handling?
    

    re: .55
    
    I Have an acre of land I'm selling thats listed for $20K.
    I'll sell it to you for a 50% discount, which amounts to the following:
    
    New price = $19.99k (includes Tax and preparation)
    
    DM
    

    Decided to try it myself so I could make some sense of this.  I called
    1-800-pc-by-dec to get the real scoop. Here's what I fould
    
    ITEM			customer price			EPP
    fr (means customer)                                     (list X 50%)        
    fr-pc462-aa	(386/25)   	    900.00		  	659.50
    fr-pcxal (keyboard)              50.00			 36.50
    fr-pc4xg-ac (VGA w/512k 1024X768)175.00  			128.00
    fr-pc4xv-b2 (multisync monitor ) 450.00			329.50
    fr-pc4xm-cb (2mb memory)	     150.00			110.00
    fr-pcxas-aa (logitec mouse)	      35.00			 25.50
    fr-pc4xr-db	(120 mb ide drive)   450.00			329.50
    fr-pc4xr-ea (1.2 floppy)	      75.00			 55.00
    dos 5.0 windows 3.0		     125.00			125.00 (no
    discount for windows or dos)
    
    As you can see there is a difference between customer and EPP. The
    problem is the EPP on VTX is not accurate.  I figured out what is going
    on.  If you look and the price in EPP you can see that they represent
    the price when we got 40% off list.  If you have an interest in a pc
    product you can take the price in EPP and divide it by 60% and then
    multiply it by 50% it will give you the current price.  I dont know why
    EPP hasn't make the changes to the prices yet.  I guess they are to
    busy.  (haha).  I'm sure that all of us are busting their door down
    trying to buy something at these great prices.
    
    Some things in the EPP are competitively priced.  Their memory is
    still ridiculous and their VGA board is also pricey.  But the hard
    drive is a good price and so is the monitor considering what it is and
    all.  This monitor competes with the NEC multisync 3D. These systems
    also come with 1 year on-site warranty.
    
    	Shipping times are 14 days for preconfigured systems.  I guess it
    takes them this long to put one together.  Individual parts are shipped
    in 48 hours.  Tax is paid on purchases but I forgot to ask about
    shipping.  I would assume so to be safe.
    
    
    Rick
    
     	  

    RE: "Tax, Shipping & Handling?"
    
    
    Well, if the LAPTOP is $997.50 (after discount) and let's say my local
    tax is 6.5% (cause it is, in Colorado Springs), that makes the Laptop 
    $1,062.34 before shipping and handling charges are added.... the figure 
    $1,462. (quoted in a previous reply) that leaves a $399.66 S&H charge... 
    WOW..! That seems high for shipping & handling (to me anyway)..!
    
    I realize the Tax quoted may be from the east (probably Mass.) but even
    a few extra percentage points would make that much difference.
    
    I'd be interested in knowing what shipping and handling would really
    be, for such a product... Anyone know. I haven't a clue as to how this
    stuff is figured out.
    

re: .49,

>    The person in .45 indeed has a good solution. Digital has a product
>    called SoftPC, not Softbase, that allows you to run PC software on any
>    VAX or RISC system.

    	Thank you for correcting my typo.  I thought about this on the way
    home last night and suddenly realized I had mentioned the wrong product!

>    SoftPC has gained great user acceptance in the marketplace - in fact,
>    Microsoft are bundling SoftPC with their NT on MIPS platforms. It is
>    Sun microsystems second highest selling product.

    	By the way, who owns SoftPC?  Is it a DEC product by any chance?

    				    -davo

    
         Just talked to Cindy at DTN 264-6660 for this "Digital Announces
    Desktop Direct" campaign.
    
    Apparently the information printed on the back that says:
     "A price we're reducing even further through our Employee Purchase 
    Program" is a MISTAKE. She went on to tell me that the catalog prices
    are not discountable from those that are published.
    
    Thanks for the information....goodbye.
    
    Man, am I seething...
    
    When are we gonna wake up and actually enlist the aid of employees,
    instead of continually shorting us on these so-called "street
    commodities"? These folks have the audacity to say "sorry, its a
    mistake" and then expect us to brag about DEC getting into PC's?
    Right.
    
                 Steve (who WAS interested enough to check it out)

    Sooo...let me be the first to break the news from VTX!
    
                   A LA CARTE SYSTEMS                
      EMPLOYEE PURCHASE PROGRAM
    
       Product               Description          Special Msg          Est.
    Price
    
       PC441-AA        DS212LP 12MHZ 80286    1.44MB FLOPPY,VGA,ID      
    663.00
       PC442-AA        DS316sx 16MHZ 80386s   1.44MB FLOPPY,VGA,ID      
    615.60
       PC461-AA        DS316+ 16MHZ 80386     1.44MB FLOPPY, IDE      
    1,257.00
       PC462-AA        DS325c 25MHZ 80386     1.44MB FLOPPY, IDE        
    791.40
       PC463-AA        DS333c 33MHZ 80386     1.44MB FLOPPY, IDE        
    879.60
    
    

The following data was extracted from VTX PRICE, showing the "list" 
prices for two of the new Notebook PC models for comparison.  As was
explained in a previous note, the "FR-" options are those that the
Desktop Direct program (1-800-PCBYDEC) sells.  The models without that
prefix are identically configured options that you can purchase from
DECdirect (1-800-DIGITAL) or from a DEC sales person.

Note:  Some may question why we have two list prices for what amounts to
the same item.  If you look carefully at the VTX PRICE detail entry for
these models you'll see that End User discounting doesn't apply to the
"FR-" options, only OEM discounting applies; both End User and OEM 
discount schedules apply to the standard options.

I've arranged comparable items together and computed an estimated EPP
price based on 50% off the DECdirect (not Desktop Direct) List Price. 
Now I leave it up to you to determine whether it's a good deal or not.

   MODEL                                          LIST    (ESTIMATED)
   NUMBER         DESCRIPTION                     PRICE    EPP PRICE

FR-PCP11-AA   DECpc 320P, U.S.                   1,995.00
   PCP11-AA   DECpc 320P, U.S.                   2,924.00  1,462.00

FR-PCP11-FA   DECpc 320P-80MB, DATA MODEM        2,495.00
   PCP11-FA   DECpc 320P-80MB, DATA MODEM        3,656.00  1,828.00
 
/Ed

    Package systems are still out of whack....
    
    DJ-PC441-AA        DS212LP 1MB/20MB DIS   B/W MS-DOS KYBD         
    1,152.00
    DJ-PC441-AB        DS212LP 1MB/20MB DIS   COLOR MS-DOS KYBD       
    1,416.00
    DJ-PC442-AA        DS316SX 2MB/40MB DIS   B/W MS-DOS KYBD         
    1,437.00
    DJ-PC442-AB        DS316SX 2MB/40MB DIS   COLOR MS-DOS KYBD       
    1,701.00
    DJ-PC461-AA        DS316+ 2MB/40MB DISK   B/W MS-DOS KYBD VGA     
    2,406.00
    DJ-PC461-AB        DS316+ 2MB/40MB DISK   COLOR MS-DOS KYBD VG    
    2,724.00
    DJ-PC462-AA        DS325c 2MB/80MB DISK   B/W MS-DOS KYBD VGA     
    2,490.00
    DJ-PC462-AB        DS325c 2MB/80MB DISK   COLOR MS-DOS KYBD VG    
    2,754.00
    DJ-PC462-BB        DS325c 8MB/80MB DISK   COLOR OS/2 V1.2 KYBD    
    4,458.00
    DJ-PC463-AA        DS333c 8MB/80MB DISK   B/W OS/2 V1.2 KYBD V    
    2,622.00
    DJ-PC463-AB        DS333c 8MB/80MB DISK   COLOR OS/2 V1.2 KYBD    
    2,886.00
    DJ-PC463-BA        DS333c 8MB/170MB SCS   B/W OS/2 V1.2 KYBD V    
    5,247.00

    regarding .61
    Where did you get your prices.  The pc462-aa has a list for 1319. 
    Employees can buy at 50% of list which 659.50.  I now know why our
    customers have a hard time finding out information about our products. 
    We as a company cant even get this right.
    
    
    Just talked to EPP again and even though it says that it was updated on
    2/17/92, most of the info in it is wrong.  Part numbers are even wrong. 
    e.g the keyboard in EPP in the wrong part #.  The correct # is
    pcxal-aa.  The prices reflect 40% discount.  We also cant call for a
    current price because depending on who you talk to you get two
    different prices.  e. g the price I was quoted and what .61 was quoted.
    
    I dont know where DEC can say we are "the pc company" because we cant
    get it right.  Also back a few notes someone said that they were told
    the catalog prices were correct.  The catalog prices are wrong.  Three
    days after the catalogs were printed, DEC lowered prices on all systems
    and options to compete with DELL computers.
    
    I really dont know what we are going to do but I for one am not going
    to my customers and telling them how great we are when I dont even
    believe it myself.  
    
    
    Rick
    
    

    
    I'm gonna post this a second time, cause it appears that the last one
    went into the bit bucket for some reason or another. 
    
    The Employee Purchase thingee that just arrived has a major faux pas
    printed on the back.
    
    The words "...A price we're reducing even further through our Employee
    Purchase Program."    ARE NOT TRUE.
    
     I called the DTN 264-6660 and Cindy informed me it was a mistake.
    They apparently are not discounting the prices in the catalog.

    
     Well taxes will be back soon , looks like I am buying from a small
    comp. store here in town  (there are lots of them here in silicon
    valley). 
    33 mhz 486 64k cache
    120 mb 15 ms seagate hd
    4 mb ram
    1 mb diamond speedstar svga card
    two floppys
    sony 1304 .25 dp non interlaced monitor
    price 1995 with tax 2164 out the door.
    
    DEC does not even come close to that. Oh well I would love to buy one 
    from Digital but if we can't compete .........
    

    regarding .64
    
    Which catalog are you referring to?  Is it the Desktop Direct Catalog?
    

    .67 is wrong.   The question is in regards to note .65
    

    re: .53 ( and others )
    
>    $1995 x 50% = $997.50
>    
>    How do they get $1462 ????

    The $1462 comes from 50% off *list* price. List price includes overhead
    for  Sales  reps,  CAS,  etc.  Desktop  Direct (1-800-PCBYDEC) sells at
    "street" prices which are lower because a lot of overhead was  stripped
    out.  It  basically  is  a  "no-frills",  "no-handholding"  deal.  BTW,
    customers get no DBA discounts from Desktop Direct either (though they
    do get credit for purchases toward their DBA).

    d

Re: .58

Wow - you really pay 6.5% sales taxes in Colorado? 

Maybe you should consider moving someplace like Massachusetts (5%) or
New Hampshire (0%).

Of course, you'd have to commute a long way to find a job . . . :-)

				- - Steve

That 6.5% is in Colorado Springs.  It is 3% State, 2% county and 2.5% city.

John

It may be 2.5% county and 2% city.

    RE: 1764.70

    >Maybe you should consider moving someplace like Massachusetts (5%) or
    >New Hampshire (0%).

    Well, I lived in Massachusetts for 36 years...., I'll take the 6.5%
    over the BS politics of Mass., thank you very much..
    (PLEASE, don't turn this into a "Mass-I-choos-it" note/topic)
    
    It is amazing that Digital won't even attempt to get the portion of the
    "market share" called EMPLOYEES of Digital. 
    
    Gee, maybe the employees should get together, forming a "co-op". The 
    co-op would order/buy a large quantity of Laptops/PCs, from Digital... 
    thus taking advantage of any "volumn discounts".... The co-op could 
    then turn around and sell them to the members of the co-op (Digital 
    employees), at a discounted price.... Gee, this sounds alot like.... 
    no wait.... EPP.....

    
    Bob G.
    

    >> >Maybe you should consider moving someplace like Massachusetts (5%) or
    >> >New Hampshire (0%).

    >> Well, I lived in Massachusetts for 36 years...., I'll take the 6.5%
    >> over the BS politics of Mass., thank you very much..
    
    You should try New York.  6.5% is a bargain!
    
    Larry

    6.5% sounds fairly good to me too.  Here in Tennessee we pay 7.75%
    sales tax and they (the politicians) just voted a .5% increase to fund
    the school system more.  So 6.5% sounds good.  But we do not have a
    State income tax here.  All we have is the Sales tax. 
    
    I lived in North Carolina for a while and they had low sales tax but
    their state income tax would kill you.  They also had a personal
    property tax where you had to pay tax on your vehicles, boats,
    airplanes etc.  So I hightailed it back to TN with our 7.75%.  I like
    it better.
    
    Rick
    

    We are getting way off the topic but Mass. isn't called
    TAXACHUSETTS for nothing. We are taxed on just about
    everything and anything. The politicos in the State house 
    have great fun in devising new ways to lighten our wallets.
    At least Weld has helped stem the tide. We'll see how long
    it lasts.
    
    Jim C.
    

    I am still not clear. The computers sold thru EPP are the Tandy
    computers, right? The new competitive computers are made by Intel, Us
    or other, right? You can only buy the newer computers thru Dec Direct
    with no discount, right? 
    
    The computers sold thru EPP are the same as they have always been, yes?
    
    I own a Dec Pc, I am a customer but I have to go to Northboro to get 
    a catalog! Would by tough for you people from Colorado Springs.
    
    Dennis

    re: - .4 If you really DO want a system that all in your family can use
    & grow with - with the easiest learning curve of ANY computer, you MUST
    look at getting some flavor of MAC!!!  I use PC, Risc, VAXstation and
    MAC in my daily work at DEC and have found excellent pricing on pc &
    MAC, but IMHO, a MAC interface, flexibility, and consistency far exceed
    all others - period.  I purchyased a MAC 1 year ago and would not go to
    any of the others.  I also use one at work and prefer it over the
    others. I could care less if it is "politically correct" or not. I get
    more work done more effectively with it than any other system and I
    have no problem getting around on the other platforms - especially
    windows on a pc. For my money - the MAC is best. Check it out. 

    This is admittedly a nit, but it's never too late to repost yet another
    correction to what many Mac aficionados have to contend with in the DEC
    culture...
    
          "Mac is NOT an acronym - it's Mac or Macintosh *not* MAC"
    
    (PS -- With PATHWORKS for Macintosh, a Mac can be a full participant 
    in a DEC network, using worldwide VAXen as print & fileservers, 
    including even acting as an X Display Server, a DECnet peer, &c, &c, ...)
    
    (PPS -- what .77 said... :-)
                   

    Re: .-1
    
    This is admittedly a nit, but it's never too late to repost yet another
    correction to the frequent misuse of Digital's trademarks.
    
    	"'VAX' is a Digital trademark- 'VAXen' is *not* to be used"
    
    In order to protect our trademarks, we must use them correctly, both
    inside and outside Digital. The legal department says we should use
    "VAX" as an adjective, not as a noun.  Therefore we build "VAX
    computers" , not "VAXes", "VAXs", or "VAXen".
    
    twe, who_couldn't_resist_and_is_expecting_a_retort_in_kind	:-)

    So trademark the variants.

    *Well* hit, Tom!!
    
    /s/ Dan_who_didn't_know_he_was_settin_himself_up_so_fatly...:-)

>       <<< Note 1764.78 by RDVAX::KALIKOW "Buddy, can youse paradigm?" >>>
>     -< Quoting from the opening banner of ROUTES::Macintosh notesfile.. >-

(and correcting the mistake in that note)

>          "MAC is NOT an acronym - it's Mac or Macintosh *not* MAC"
    
I can also confirm that MAC isn't an acronym, I am learning the language
which the words 'Mac' and 'MacIntosh' come from :-)

Craig

  >	1764.77 GLDOA::MORRISON    -< Mac gets my vote >-
  >  re: - .4 If you really DO want a system that all in your family can use
  >  & grow with - with the easiest learning curve of ANY computer, you MUST
  >  look at getting some flavor of MAC!!!  

	Funny i should read that, sitting here next to my new Mac LC,
	bought 4 days ago.  My 9 year old son set it up while i was at
	work, and was installing software when i got home.  I'm totally
	astonished at how easy it is to use and how the keyboard is for
	ONLY entering text.  Can't wait 'til the inkjet printer is in.

	Only problem is prying the kids away from it.  My 8 year old
	daughter delights in showing her friends what she can already
	do with it.  At the moment i'm standing guard over it until the
	kids are asleep, or i'll find them drawing in the dark.  mwr

re                  <<< Note 1764.77 by GLDOA::MORRISON "Dave" >>>
>                             -< Mac gets my vote >-

>    re: - .4 If you really DO want a system that all in your family can use
>    & grow with - with the easiest learning curve of ANY computer, you MUST

	I found the Amiga to be easier to learn and use.  To me the 
mac is too restrictive.  I want a shell, I want to see and be able to 
change protection on files, etc.  I like to play around at designing
my own window borders, fun stuff like that, etc. 

	Other points in favor of a minority machine at home;

It exposes growing minds to  "something other than PCs and macs". 
Most of my off-springs' friends seem to have it fairly deeply
ingrained in their minds that there are macs and PCs - thats all.  
They're often pleasantly surprised that there are different machines - 
I'm not insisting  "better",  just  "different"  and there is value in 
them understanding that the differences are mostly only "style".

To gain acceptance the minority machines have accumulated all kinds of 
fun emulators;  so its possible to run an Amiga as a mac or a PC for 
example.  This means that it is less likely to be the "wrong choice", 
since it can become one of the others by emulation.  {and just BTW, 
without the performance overhead that some folks would have you 
believe.}

>    look at getting some flavor of MAC!!!  I use PC, Risc, VAXstation and
>    MAC in my daily work at DEC and have found excellent pricing on pc &
>    MAC, but IMHO, a MAC interface, flexibility, and consistency far exceed
>    all others - period.  I purchyased a MAC 1 year ago and would not go to
>    any of the others.  I also use one at work and prefer it over the
>    others. I could care less if it is "politically correct" or not. I get
>    more work done more effectively with it than any other system and I
>    have no problem getting around on the other platforms - especially
>    windows on a pc. For my money - the MAC is best. Check it out. 

	I disagree on "flexibility" and "price",  I believe there is 
more of both to be had in the Amiga.

	R

PS	BTW, the Amiga is a REAL multi-tasking machine - has been
	since the mid 80's  (-: 

    My 4 year old daughter can boot and start her favorite educational
    games on her 7 year old brother's Amiga 500.  The only complaint is
    that educational software for young children is hard to find for the
    A500.
    

re     <<< Note 1764.83 by WMOIS::RAINVILLE "A unique and fragile reality!" >>>
>                                    -< yup >-

>	Funny i should read that, sitting here next to my new Mac LC,
>	bought 4 days ago.  My 9 year old son set it up while i was at
>	work, and was installing software when i got home.  I'm totally
>	astonished at how easy it is to use and how the keyboard is for

	So, you're sitting next to it - not logged in from home 
THROUGH it,  in a spare window ?  It might take more than 4 days to
figure out how to do that, due to its "user friendliness".  Did your 9
year old figure out how easy it is to add (or remove) another device
or driver beyond the standard set-ups yet ?  Most adults still can't
do that after several years of  "mac experience".  Can you 
import/export postscript yet ?

>	ONLY entering text.  Can't wait 'til the inkjet printer is in.

	Oh, suitcases full of fonts, or some such nonsense - yes, that
WILL be a whole lot of fun, won't it ?  I hope you know where the mac
conference is, there are lots of topics for folks with 4 days of mac
experience - some of them are still quite happy with their machines
too.  Once you learn the jargon it won't be too bad, but learning the
jargon can take a while.  At least you don't have to learn the right 
and middle mouse buttons...

>	Only problem is prying the kids away from it.  My 8 year old
>	daughter delights in showing her friends what she can already
>	do with it.  At the moment i'm standing guard over it until the
>	kids are asleep, or i'll find them drawing in the dark.  mwr

	This is the difference between kids' toys that adults can play 
with and adult tools that are simple enough for kids to use.   The 
used mac market is some indication of how soon people tire of the 
former.

	R

    re: -.1
    
    what cr*p!
    
    I have a little Kermit the Frog icon on my mac that I click on to
    dial into work. Have to hit return once I get to the DEC LAT, but it's
    not difficult to either set up, nor use.
    
    Yesterday I upgraded the memory from 8mb to 20mb in about 10 minutes,
    with no special books, etc.
    
    As I sit here checking on my mail I have been editing a paper in one
    window, and will later continue developing a presentation we've been
    working on (with sound and motion), while using a voice editing
    package.
    
    Over the years (7-8 of them) I've created pictures and documents with
    speed and quality that confounded my Dec co-workers. Sure, we're
    catching up, and it's about time.
    
    Thinking that using or setting up a Mac is difficult is wrong. Acting
    on those assumptions can be dangerous. We've got to build (and sell)
    systems that are easy to use.
    
    /Tim

    
    RE: 1764.86
    
>	So, you're sitting next to it - not logged in from home 
>THROUGH it,  in a spare window ?  It might take more than 4 days to
>figure out how to do that, due to its "user friendliness".  Did your 9
>year old figure out how easy it is to add (or remove) another device
>or driver beyond the standard set-ups yet ?  Most adults still can't
>do that after several years of  "mac experience".  Can you 
>import/export postscript yet ?

    Four days?  Doubt it.  You plug your modem into the connector with the
    telephone above it.  You Read The Manual and drag the indicated files
    to the System Folder; it will place them where it wants.  Start up you
    terminal emulator and select the modem tool  Enter a phone number,
    connect to the world.
    
    Or you could install your modem card (or plug your external modem into
    one of the DB-9 connectors, or DB-25 connectors) and configure your
    software (is it COM1, COM2?).  Did I set my IRQ's and I/O addresses
    correctly???
    
>	Oh, suitcases full of fonts, or some such nonsense - yes, that
>WILL be a whole lot of fun, won't it ?  I hope you know where the mac
>conference is, there are lots of topics for folks with 4 days of mac
>experience - some of them are still quite happy with their machines
>too.  Once you learn the jargon it won't be too bad, but learning the
>jargon can take a while.  At least you don't have to learn the right 
>and middle mouse buttons...

    Yeah, having fonts in a suitecase vs. having them either in each
    application, the printer, additional files to install using Windows
    3.0, or as a TSR that intercepts font requests  would definitely be
    more preferrable.  And accessing common page setup and print dialog
    boxes, who'd every want that?
    
>	This is the difference between kids' toys that adults can play 
>with and adult tools that are simple enough for kids to use.   The 
>used mac market is some indication of how soon people tire of the 
>former.

    List your sources for the used Macintosh market.  Then do a little
    test, see how many new notes are posted to the Macintosh vs. ibm-PC
    notes conferences per day.
    
    I really get p*ssed off by these "evangelistic" notes, be it Mac vs.
    IBM-PC, Unix vs. VMS, RISC vs. CISC, etc.  If it (whatever *it* is)
    does what you require, if you like using it, if it's capabilities save
    you time / make you money -- USE IT!  But don't slam someone for
    boasting about a system that works for their family.
    
    --- Gavin

I guess what follows is a mild flame, so ignore it now.

Yeah, but if I have a hard time finding the terminal emulator, does the little
clown icon juggle its way across the screen and wink at the correct folder for
me?

To paraphrase something else, why are we having a discussion between adherents
of two different UIs, each with that glazed look in their faces, knowing that
they know the true answer, yet afraid that they'll lose it?

The really swell thing about UIs is that they exactly represent the preferences
of at most one committee, and the rest of us poor saps just have to learn to fit
our lives around it.

Perhaps instead of evangelistic wars about this vs that, we should realize that
most UIs are poor conduits between the user and useful work, and that maybe 
instead of discussing which existing UI is best, we should concentrate on making
one that's adequate (which I can't say of any UI on the market).

    and just this week for the third apple demostrated their "voice mac"
    
    fresh from their lab but far from production it's an improvement in
    user friendlyness that is long over due...can't wait til it becomes
    a usable product.....
    
    next stop will be the "mind meld" interface where you wear some
    funky hat and it interperts your brain waves to do the commands
    you think about...not that could be dangerous...how manke times
    have we all said stupid machine when it was and op error???
    
    what will it do then????
    
    {;^)...

    
    	Awww... yer all wrong. My Atari ST will whup your wimpy
    Amiga-IBM-MAC boxen!
    	:-)
    	/john

Ok, let's settle this once and for all!

Who's got the ruler?

:-)

    I gather that ::GORDON feels that it's OK to make gentle fun of an
    obvious future trend in UIs.  Sure, mouse- and iconic-driven GUIs are
    "strange" to those who aren't used to them.  Sure, there are conflicts
    between adherents of GUI flavor "A" and flavor "B", and between both of
    them and those who prefer or need a "shell" command-driven UI for SW
    development.  Sure, GUIs are _not_ "completely intuitive" as some
    adherents of MacOS would claim.
    
    I'm reminded of one Star Trek movie or episode when Spock, in a
    time-warp, encoounters a Macintosh.  Twitting the adherents of the Mac,
    the writers have Spock walk up to the Mac, pick up the Mouse, and BEGIN
    SPEAKING INTO IT.  Spock is frustrated at its lack of response.  Now
    THAT is a far more INTUITIVE user interface.  After all, when you speak
    to a HUMAN "server," you address it with voice...
    
    Why apparently ridicule an attempt (of unknown success) to achieve
    voice input?  Apple's efforts are not the state-of-the-art in voice
    response, not by far; but they represent a real effort by a PC vendor
    to advance the state of the art in commercially-available UIs.  
    
    It is CERTAINLY a major leap to hypothesize a funky thought-reading
    "thinking cap" UI.  But adducing such a leap and ridiculing its
    difficulty is imho a poor way of detracting from a clear benefit that
    Apple is trying to bring to production.
    
    Are we perhaps a bit envious, or perhaps fearful of needing to adopt
    any new technology that is unfamiliar?  Do we perhaps see a bit of
    mouseophobia here, in which the alleged shakiness of a future feature
    is used as a club to defend against the onslaught of long-established
    GUI trends?
    
    If I have misinterpreted the tone of .90 I express my regrets here.

    Re. .93:
    
    Just a minor nit:

    In that Star Trek movie (the one about the whales, was it Star Trek
    IV?), it was Scotty, not Spock, that operated the Macintosh.
    
       Bill
    
    PS:  Even though I have a nice Mac upstairs, I'm typing this from
         an even greater and more famous computer:
    
         My VT180 Robin.
    

    Thanks Bill -- I'm sure a Scotsman would have had a better chance at
    getting a _Mac_ to understand his speech...
    
    "But Captain, I kinna _get_ any more images into Memory!  I've tried,
    boot eet jus waon't taek nae more deesk accessories 'neath the Aehpell
    Meenyu..."
    
    ... or somesuch attempt to render that lovely accent...  :-)
    
    ps -- I never actually SAW this episode, but I've read about it...  Ah
    hoop that expleeyns the pagefault...  :-)  Apologies to Scotophiles and
    any local Romulans.
    
    PPS -- I'm typing (*and polishing*) this in a local text-editor on my
    home Mac, and then I'll copy it to my Mac's clipboard and paste it,
    error-free, into the text-editor inside VAXnotes that I'm accessing via
    a termulator.  No more laborious remote character-mode editing for THIS
    puppy!
    
    PPPS -- And were I in my office Mac on the EasyNet via PATHWORKS, I
    could be using a VAXnotes client that presents a completely native-mode
    Mac UI to VAXnotes, and which makes a DECnet connection to the
    ::DIGITAL Notes Server...
        

    re: mid 80s
    
    See my personal name for an opinion on the PC holy wars.  Reg Burgess
    makes two good points in .84, one right on and one way off base.  Gavin
    Adams' reply .88 is a perfect illustration.  Reg, you're wrong about
    the Macintosh.  Compared to Amiga, it offers many more nice-to-have
    resources and a much more rigid UI.  There is a great deal to recommend
    the Macintosh, as with any other successful computer.
    
    But let's look at Reg's other point.  It really is worthwhile knowing
    about "minority" personal computer brands.  The common stereotype is
    that there are only two "real" flavors of PC.  Adams' reply falls right
    into that trap, talking about TSRs when Burgess' computer doesn't use
    them.  The people who sell products for the Big Two have a lot to gain
    from perpetuating the conventional wisdom -- otherwise customers would
    demand much more.
    
    I'd also like to comment on the main thread.  It's easy to find the
    administrator of EPP and complain to him, but what about the people who
    actually set policy?  How do we find them and convince them to do
    better?  There is one name in the flyer that started this whole string,
    and indications in the EPP notesfile that the "generous" PC discount
    came from the very top of PCSG.
    
    Who should get the news that anybody picking up a _Computer Shopper_
    can do better than EPP?  For instance, the March issue carries an
    article on 11 386SX-20 notebooks under $2000, plus a big Dell ad for
    their $1599 notebook, plus many ads for about-$2000 notebooks that
    one-plus the DEC portable in several features.
    
    What's a constructive step to get the attention of the right people?
    
    Wes

    Perhaps the request for a better employee discount needs to go to
    the Digital Benefits Manager, whoever that may be.  A discount on
    Digital products is a benefit, similar to the Health, Dental, tickets
    to shows, movie ticket discounts, club memberships, etc.

    I think the reason for having an EPP is because somebody high up thinks we
    should have an EPP.  By that metric, EPP is successful.  What's needed
    is to get somebody high up to think that we should get more hardware and
    software into the homes of employees.  
    
    Steve

    	Maybe there is a reason why the prices are high?  Maybe there
    is a strategy in place to purposely disuade DECies from buying PC's
    for their own personal use just yet.  Maybe the strategy is to keep
    DECies PC-less until Alpha-running-NT is available, and *then* to
    announce a revised Employee Purchase Program with real discounts.

    	Such a strategy, were it real, could provide an instant market
    for DEC's new foobar PC product.  This in turn, could aritifically
    inflate the percieved market acceptance of the product enough to
    insure its success in the PC marketplace for years to come.

    				   -davo

    Incompetance or ignorance is so much simpler than conspiracy.
    Ockham's razor applies.

Besides, it'd have to be a far-reaching policy maker who, 5 years or more
ago, said, "We're waiting for Alpha."

It's certainly been true for at least 5 years that the employee purchase
program has not been competitive with what's available outside the company.

K.

re: .94:

    In that Star Trek movie (the one about the whales, was it Star Trek
    IV?), it was Scotty, not Spock, that operated the Macintosh.
    
And the computer voice that taught Spock came from a DECtalk.

Martin.

    If EPP is truly a rewarding, genuine, bottom line savings to the
    employee where they can "buy" PCs etc.. at ridiculously low, piddly,
    mininscule prices then I have the following.................
    	Ocean front property in Arizona
    	The winning and only ticket in the super megabucks lottery
    	Being able to pick a 8 horse parlay at the local race track
    	An iceberg in the Mojave desert
    	Being the greatest entrepeneur in the world
    	The setting sun in the eastern horizon
    If I do sound a mite negative - guess what? you are absolutely right,
    but we sure do have the right one Baby -uhh huhh.
    	regards
    	John

    It's been a while since the last entry in this topic, but at risk of
    re-opening some wounds, I have to ask....
    
    "What source (EPP or Desktop Direct) will provide me with the least
    expensive *Digital* PC?"
    
    I'm looking at a 420sx with 105 MByte HD, 4 MByte RAM and a 14" color 
    VGA monitor for $2799 per the March 17 issue of PC Magazine.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mark.

    I just priced out the small laptop and using EPP (50% off Standard
    List) was better than using no-discount Desktop Direct pricing. However
    Desktop Direct does come with on-site maintenance, which EPP doesn't.
     
    -f-
    

    re: 1764.105
    
>    "What source (EPP or Desktop Direct) will provide me with the least
>    expensive *Digital* PC?"
>    
>    I'm looking at a 420sx with 105 MByte HD, 4 MByte RAM and a 14" color 
>    VGA monitor for $2799 per the March 17 issue of PC Magazine.
    
    Note 416.17 in SHALOT::EMPPURPRO says that you can order a 486-25mhz
    4MB RAM, 120MB HD... for $1875 from the EPP.
    
    -Bruce
    
    
    

        I'm interested in buying one of these laptops, but does anyone know
    if EPP ever got a deal worked out so that we (employees) could buy them
    on a payroll deduction plan?
    
                                                                   Scott

    You can get a DCU loan for a DEC EPP PC, which of course, they gladly
    take out of your hard-earned income.
    
    Me, I'll wait till I can get a Sandpiper on EPP.
    
    q
    
    

    What's a sandpiper? 
    
    Scott

    Sandpiper is a code name for a possible future product that Peter knows
    better than to have mentioned here.
    
    /a

    gee, I was just reading it from the front page of digital news... 
    
    q

    ...which doesn't make it announced, official or even eventually a
    product.

         I talked with EPP and no, we still haven't got a payroll deduction
    plan.  However like Q mentioned back a few you could do the DCU thing.
    
                                                           Scott

    re: .115
    
    Let me counter your rumor with mine:
    
    	The EPP for PC's will stink, as usual.
    
    But, that's just a rumor. :-\

    Last Monday (3/30/92) there was a Joint Partners Program meeting
    held that was sponsored by Don Zareski.  During the course of the
    meeting he mentioned the program that they were trying to put in place. 
    They were talking about being able to purchase up to two systems per
    year at or near cost with an interest free payroll deduction plan.
    
    This doesn't sound too bad to me...
    
    Then again, based on other things that were said at the meeting I will
    believe it when I see it
    

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, but is it still going to be limited to MSDOS based
    systems? Hey, I like Vax systems. It's one of the reasons I work for
    this company. So why can't I buy one of our own products rather than
    something we get badge-engineered for us...
    
    q
    

    RE: .118 I agree with you. Every piece of software I want to play
    with runs under VMS. I have no great desire for an other MSDOS system.
    
    			Alfred

    While DEC has a strong business need for enthusiastic internal users
    of and advocates for VMS-based SW, and I applaud and value that, 
    I couldn't help feeling the following when I read .119:
    
    "I don't care about all that newfangled internal combustion stuff. 
    It's hard enough keeping up with all this great new buggywhip-
    fabrication technology." 
    
    In other words, I feel that it's more important to DEC's future that
    we, its employees, personally understand desktop computing, like our
    CUSTOMERS, than is imho implied by .119.  Equal opportunity for us to
    buy VAXen at discount?  Sure; but let's remember that to most folks,
    the desktop IS the computer.  If we sell and develop without that
    perspective, imho we'll drop further behind the curve...
    
    Your mileage may vary.

>    I couldn't help feeling the following when I read .119:
>    
>    "I don't care about all that newfangled internal combustion stuff. 
>    It's hard enough keeping up with all this great new buggywhip-
>    fabrication technology." 
    
    I can understand how you might get that feeling. However, I've
    had and used a MSDOS PC for years. IN fact .119 was written on
    one. I don't have all that much trouble keeping up with this PC
    stuff. Though as a 20 year computer user I'd call MSDOS the 
    buggywhip. As an operating system it's way behind the PDP-11 stuff
    I learned on.
    
>Sure; but let's remember that to most folks,
>    the desktop IS the computer.  If we sell and develop without that
>    perspective, imho we'll drop further behind the curve...
    
    Agreed. But I see no reason that a low cost VMS system can't take
    over the desktops in the future. The potential for applications in
    that space using VMS is so far beyond what is available on PCs today
    that it boggles the mind. Let us take home low cost VAX/ALPHA systems
    and that can happen.
    
    			Alfred

    	
    	The problem I see isn't with the fact that EPP
    	isn't good enough.  If you look at the cost after
    	discount and compare it to the cost to DEC for the 
    	unit, EPP is a GOOD deal (speaking only on the DOS-PC
    	product line).  
    
    	The real problem we have with EPP is dealing with the MLP we
    	offer to customers, it's too high.  To the best of 
    	my knowledge this is because the cost to DEC is WAY WAY WAY
    	too high.  
    
    	If we (DEC) could get better pricing, MLP would go down and
    	I would expect EPP would be a significant deal.  
    	
    	Product cost isn't something to discuss here (this note or an
    	open forum) but if DEC can't/doesn't get competitive pricing on
    	it's delivery from it's vendors we can't be competitive on 
    	the outside and can offere deals to the inside.  (we're selling the 
    	DECpc 320P in ads for $1995 = $400 more than a comparable DELL which 
    	you have to admit has a good reputation in the marketplace ).
    
    
    					- Ed
    
    ( who is actively in the market for a 486/33MHz and can't look inside )

    I didn't mean to imply that Alfred was wrong or misinformed or backward-
    looking.  I was using his .119 as a springboard to address what I see as
    a bias in DEC against the relevance of desktop computing to the future. 
    I see that bias as a danger to us.  Nothing personal was intended.
    
           (BTW fwiw my .120 and this were written from a Mac... :-)

    Since this note has already gotten off track, I'll add my $.02...
    
    I have a Unix workstation on my desk. I use it to communicate
    internally with our VMS world. I have a Mac at home that I bought on my
    own nickel because it makes ME most productive based upon my own pre
    purchase analysis. Now our Sales organization is telling  me that they
    want to offer me an MS-DOS system to help me be more productive in
    doing my job. 
    
    Now, everything that's been said by a number of people including Ken is
    that we should focus on your customer's problem as opposed to trying to
    figure out a way for our customer to adapt to our solution. Is this
    principle any different for ourselves? The concept of a portable
    solution is ok. I'm not sure I agree with the philosophy that MS-DOS is
    the only environment that makes people (our own) more productive.
    
    Yeah, I'll do the requisite training and lean the (yet another)
    environment because being portable is an important productivity
    enhancement to me. I'd be just as happy though buying (on my own
    nickel) an overstocked/obsolete Mac portable for under $1400 if I had
    the option of useing the productivity tools that are planned to be
    available to the sales force.

I got to thinking again about Alfred's .121 and wanted to spout off some more,
and I thought perhaps it belonged in a general discussion of desktop computing
like 1076.*, but figured what the hey, it began here, might as well run the
rathole risk...  So this particular reply has nothing to do with the EPP, so
please NEXT UNSEEN if uninterested...

No question that MS-DOS is a buggywhip compared to a _REAL_ os, but that misses
the point imho; the point being $/cycle/seat, where MS/DOS has outsold the
"REAL" os's.  

(-: Not to mention that the Mac OS beats MS/DOS and other OS's in quality of
its GUI, and nevermind who they stole it from. :-)  

Yes, there's no question that because it ran on a cheap standard platform, DOS
took off and is now the majority desktop environment.  And we look down on it
because it doesn't have nearly as sophisticated a CLI or security model or
filesystem, and imho some of us just look at that difference and miss the
point.  Dangerously, in my view.  It's APPLICATIONS AND SOLUTIONS that folks
look at and buy, and not just OS's...

(Metaphor Alert!)

Think of the computer biz as a slow-moving river.  As rivers do, there are
meanders.  As the river evolves, the meanders get wider and wider.  Folks
traveling on the river feel frustrated by having to go back & forth to get
somewhere.  Suddenly, a channel is opened between opposite sides of a meander
and a swift current passes between the two sides of the formerly slower
riverbed.

When the earth cooled and the computer biz was young, punched-cards and
batch-jobs ruled the earth.  Life was peaceful and slow.  Users slogged around
the meandering riverbends...  !!Then one day Ken and some others discovered
INTERACTIVE COMPUTING!!  All of a sudden a channel opened, first a rivulet and
then a torrent passing through the straighter path!  Life was good, DEC
burgeoned and grew.  Virtual memory expanded the options available on
minicomputers...  Money rolled in...  Mainframes were no longer the center of
the universe.  They now exist in an oxbow lake, plying their trade, but out of
the mainstream.  
                                                   
(Yes I know the metaphor breaks down a bit here... so sue me! :-)

Years later:  The minicomputer age of the river has matured.  What was once a
swift new cut has widened into its own new meander.  In the '80s, the next cut
appears:  Personal computing.  Folks found they could compute faster and
cheaper (if initially smaller), the UI's were better, and the price-performance
curve looks like a long-term win over the world of minis.

Folks switched.  First a trickle, now a flood.  We here at DEC, in large
measure, look at the environment (CLI, filesystem, ...) chosen by many of our
former customers and we can't understand why they're leaving.  So when .121
says:

                 ...I see no reason that a low cost VMS system can't take
    over the desktops in the future. The potential for applications in
    that space using VMS is so far beyond what is available on PCs today
    that it boggles the mind. Let us take home low cost VAX/ALPHA systems
    and that can happen.

I beg to differ, on the means to get to where a low-cost DIGITAL-manufactured
chipset takes over future desktops.  Imo it's true that were the apps now
available for PCs to have been written originally for a low-cost VAX/Alpha,
they WOULD be far better.  But that's hypothetical; and in the future, who's to
write those successful new apps that must fuel the adoption of this new
platform?  Ourselves?  At home?  I think not.

I see us, many of us, sitting becalmed in our newly-formed "Minicomputer Oxbow
Lake," watching the swift current flow by thru the "Microcomputer Cut."  We
furiously work on our world-beating chipset, hoping to launch it into the
stream before we are forgotten.  But -- when the Good Ship Alpha "goes down the
ways," will there be apps -- SOLUTIONS -- to run on it?

I think the answer to that is a resounding YES, because wiser heads than mine
have assured us that popular computing platforms (NT, OSF, MS/DOS(?), even
ULTRIX and VMS!) will be ported to it.  Along with those environments will come
all the successful apps that have fueled the adoption of the previous hardware
and OS generation.  Then, Alpha-oriented innovations will start to take off
from the new platform and will experience a new growth spurt.  Alpha will find
its place in desktops -- all the way to massively parallel systems, as well.  

"If we build it, they will port."

So, you might well be asking, _if_ I think that Alpha will have a reasonable
suite of desktop software early enough for desktops built on it to succeed,
then _why_ am I harping on the advisability of our using the CURRENT generation
of desktop machines more than we are?  And in PREFERENCE to VAXen, both at home
and in the office for productivity software?

Because what runs on the next generation of desktops, the one we hope to
populate with Alpha, will bear a very strong family relationship to what's
running on our customers' personal-computer desktops, TODAY.  Application
software of the sort that is still almost unheard-of on what we now call
"workstations" but which are colliding with "personal computers."  Application
software that (it goes without saying) could NEVER exist on a terminal-
oriented minicomputer.  Application software that is being developed NOW and
shoehorned into 80486's and 68040's with a view towards '586's and 050's -- and
Alphas.  

Application software like Lotus' 1-2-3 and NOTES and Microsoft's WORD and EXCEL
and PageMaker and HyperCard and dBASE and Wingz and on and on...  The standards
in the industry.  

I don't believe for a minute that the DEC dinosaur can compete in the
application sofware wars against the little mammal specialist companies who
live and breathe their own particular app, and who, without our huge hardware
and marketing and process inertia, compete furiously against their peers for
customer mind- and marketshare in a hundred niches simultaneously.  We can do a
fairly decent job on _some_ horizontal and specialty software, and we can clean
up in networking.  We can work with major SW vendors to support our OPEN NOS's
and OPEN interchange standards.  We can be the premier INTEGRATOR. 
"MiddleWare," if you will...  But I don't think we have much of a chance for
industry credibility as an application software house.  And I don't think that
we should try that hard, there.  We should pick our spots.  

I don't think that giving even FREE Alphas or VAXen to DEC folks will increase
folks' productivity that much.  (Except for those doing middleware development,
of course...  Give 'em freebies -- one for their office, another for their
home, a third for their golf-cart!  Get as many free cycles out of 'em as
possible!...)

Internal middleware developers aside, I think that making our newest generation
of desktop platform more generally available to potential ISV's to facilitate
them porting their world-class apps to it, would be a far better use of scarce
resources than spreading them around inside DEC.

That's why I think it important that we become familiar with the desktop
application culture that has grown up in the "Microcomputer Cut."  Because it's
the culture that we're going to have to live with and sell into and develop
middleware for, if we want to get out of the oxbow and get onto the curve once
more.

Jmho.  Your knots/hour may vary.

Dan Kalikow

    Re .125
    
    Dan,
    	That was a good statement, albeit a little lengthy.  I do disagree
    with not promoting the PC's or small Alpha's to everyone in DEC.  If
    for nothing else it would promote computer literacy.  I believe they
    should be given or sold at cost to employees, but that is only my
    opinion.
    
    Jim Morton
    

    Waal, Jim, in my first line I _did_ say I "wanted to spout off some
    more" ... so I feel I gave fair warning about the length.  Late-nite
    ramblings are like that.  :-)
    
    (-: This better?  :-)
    
    Btw, thanx for your agreement!
    
    Cheers, Dan
    
    

    re .125
    
    I don't really care who owns the desktop, or how important it is. 
    
    I regards MSDOS as being the lowest common denominator in the industry,
    suited primarily to the semi computer literate masses. I am a computer
    professional, who uses VAX systems on a day to day basis, and feel most
    comfortable with them, and their available applications. (I do own and
    use a MAC, but that is for a specific personal project.)
    
    I can't understand why my employer will be willing to offer me at cost,
    a computer that they are buying from someone else, yet not do the same
    for something that we make ourselves.
    
    q
    

    But we wander off the subject:
    
    But did anybody stand up and ask of/suggest to  Mr. Zereski:
    
    "Instead of waiting the X months for a complex payroll deduction system to
    get into place, can I just buy a VAX/VMS system, next week, CASH MONEY,
    for the same price my cost center gets charged for one?"
    
    (BTW, if the powers-that-be are reading, I'm asking it now.)
    
    thomas

                      
         Note  1764.22 states,
       "Product cost isn't something to discuss here (this note or an
    	open forum) but if DEC can't/doesn't get competitive pricing on
    	it's delivery from it's vendors we can't be competitive on 
    	the outside and can offere deals to the inside.  (we're selling the 
    	DECpc 320P in ads for $1995 = $400 more than a comparable DELL which 
    	you have to admit has a good reputation in the marketplace )."
    

        I think you should get your facts straight regarding one of 
        Digital's more profitable products.  To clarify:    

         DECpc 320P                   DELL  NX20
         386sx/20Mhz                  386sx/20Mhz
         40MB HDU                     40MB HDU
         2MB RAM                      2MB RAM
         3.5", 1.44MB FDU             3.5", 1.44MB FDU          
         Backlit VGA                  Backlit VGA
         NiCd Battery                 NiCd Battery
         Logitech Trackball           Base Price        $1599
         DOS/Windows                  DOS/Windows/Mouse   199           		 
         Modem                        Modem               299
         Carrying Case                Carrying Case        99 
        
         DEC Price       $1995        DELL Price        $2196

         BTW - The EPP price will save you about $300 over Dell's
         price for a comparable unit.
    
         In the future, before you discuss DEC's products, why don't 
         you make sure you get the "facts" straight.
    
         Regards,
         Nancy Peaslee
         Product Manager, DECpc Portables
         

    And the EPP price for the notebook described in the last note is $1462. 
    Find a better price anywhere!
    
    

RE:   <<< Note 1764.130 by RANGER::PEASLEE "Superior Commute on a Trek 1200" >>>

     Nancy,

          Glad to see someone from the front-line participating.  I hope you
     can pop in from time to time to keep the facts straight.

                                      Greg

    I would really like to know out of "what brochure" are you guys quoting
    from??? If it is widely distributed I wouldn't mind but it seems like
    a quote from somebody's private stock. I haven't received any "new" 
    bargain flyers lately and often peruse "VTX EPP" so what are you
    talking about? Have you reviewed the EPP prices lately?? Is this what
    your basing prices on??  The last time I looked in EPP the prices are
    still a joke. In the past 2 1/2 years I have bought 2 PCs, didn't even
    consider EPP because the prices were like "Crazy Eddies" absolutely
    insane. I am now in the process of looking into upgrading again. The PC
    I will buy will industry standard with replaceable low cost internal
    sub components ie: not having to replace a motherboard because I lose a
    floppy controller or video no thank you.
    	I have done well with no name clone look-a-likes and their
    reliability has been excellent. Start a poll on the net and ask how
    many are running "clones" compared to all "DEC" I am sure I don't have
    to tell you what the results would be or maybe I do depending on you
    view. A good EPP would consider getting a product that we make into the
    hands of every single employee at or below cuurent "Computer Shopper"
    prices not the ridiculous ones quoted in the current EPP. Truly compare
    prices with any large computer magazine and the notice the very large
    disparity   compared to EPP or any other DEC brochure. Am I making this
    up I DON'T THINK SO.
    	regards
    	John

    I don't know how much this helps, but... the prices in VTX EPP seem to
    be always out-of-date.  For instance

    PC463-AA    (A stripped down 33MHz 80386 system unit - you need to add
                 memory, a hard disk, a video controller, etc.)

	VTX EPP   -      $ 879.60                      =>   $ 879.60
	VTX PRICE - list $1466.00   *   50% discount   =>   $ 733.00

    There's a $135 discrepancy ... and it seems more likely that VTX PRICE
    is accurate.

    If the EPP database cannot be kept up to date, then the prices should be
    removed from it so that people will know to look in VTX PRICE...

    It's a shame, but there are a couple of companies that have made good
    money selling PC's to DEC employees over the past two or three years.
    DEC just isn't interested; as far as I can tell looking at the EPP
    material that I have, it just seems to be a dumping ground for all
    the leftover stuff from our last attempt at PC's.
    
    I work across the lawn from Dell's headquarters, I live down the
    street from Compuadd's headquarters, and I drive by Austin Micro
    Systems office everyday.  All three of those companies have very
    generous home-computer policies, covering both hardware and software.
    All three of those companies are making money hand-over-fist, while
    we still make do everything in our power to prevent customers (and
    ourselves) from buying our equipment at a reasonable price.  The
    things that we do manage to sell, we aren't making a profit on.
    
    The situation is going to resolve itself shortly:  unfortunately I
    think that the final resolution will be most unpleasant for both 
    DEC and its employees.  
    
    Geoff in Austin

    My, this note come a long way since I started it!
    
    Well, looks like a REAL employee purchase program is coming soon!
    We'll just have to wait and see on the prices.
    
    I honestly feel that all the noise that we've been making,
    and the efforts of DELTA have finally gotten somebody to 
    listen to the employees!  We should all feel proud.
    I would personally like to thank everyone for their fine 
    efforts in helping to get this message through.
    
    Thank You!
    
    Mark

    
    	Well, are there to be any changes or clarifications announced
    	about a real EPP? 
    	/john

    
    
    I have been told by someone in Sales that there will be some kind a 
    announcement regarding EPP and available products on May 18th.  
    
    BTW....does anyone know what the Tiger is?  Is it a code name for 
    some kind of system and if so what are the specifics?
    
    Thank you for any info.
    
    

    Tiger is the code name for desktop PCs being built by DEC in Taiwan.
    
    Mark.

    Tiger was the code name for the last PDP-15.

Tiger -- Actually short for Tiger-Mouse -- was the code name used by
the Software Delivery unit in St. Louis when developing a DECwindows-based
graphics application for the US Air Force, for their GDSS application.

It is currently being demoed at DECworld...

JPB 

    
    
    According to DIGITAL THIS WEEK, (I think that was the publication),
    the EPP is to transition to DESKTOP DIRECT.  An overview of the new
    program will be available on VTX as of May 14th; has anyone seen it
    or had any experience with them?
    
    

(from EPP vtx)

NEW EMPLOYEE PURCHASE PROGRAM NOW A PART OF DESKTOP DIRECT  !!!

On May 18, the Employee Purchase Program will transition from 
DECdirect to DESKTOP DIRECT.  Now employees who are interested in 
purchasing PC systems and options, can get the same technical sales 
support from resources in place and trained to support external 
customers.

The number for DESKTOP DIRECT is 1-800-722-9332.  Call
Monday thru Friday between 5:30-8:00 p.m. ET for order
administration and free PC technical sales support.
Phone lines are for EXTERNAL customers only from 8:30-5:30pm  

To reduce administrative and printing costs, terms and conditions, 
loan application and any required forms will be available in VTX on
18-May. 

DESKTOP DIRECT catalogs are available.  Order EB-M4549-78.   
ALL-IN-1 mail to ORDER @NRO or VAXmail to NEST::ORDER.
Include your badge number, cost center and location.

Street-priced DESKTOP DIRECT products are eligible for a 20% discount.  
Discountable non-PC products from the DECdirect catalog receive a 40%
discount.

Active US employees who order PC systems from $1,000-$10,000 by June 
26, 1992 are eligible for interest free loans and Payroll Deductions. 
Deductions will begin in July.  All PC systems ordered with delivery 
requested prior to 26-JUN-92 also receive free LOTUS SmartSuite (R)
software.

In addition to the new payroll deduction option, payment can be 
made by certified check or VISA.

Warranty is one year return to DIGITAL.  All products can be 
returned to any of the walk-in SERVICenters across the US.  
(Listing of SERVICenters will be provided with new program details on 
May 18, 1992.)
 
BENEFITS:

-US employees can now enjoy state-of-the-art technology at 
 discounted prices.

-PC literacy will be increased throughout DIGITAL.  

-PCs are now affordable for  every employee.  Many systems  can be 
 purchased under the payroll deduction option for as little as $15. 
 a week.

-Equipment ordered through EPP is new.  Employees receive the same 
 top quality products as our external customers.

-Interest-free loans for less than $10,000 are not considered a 
 taxable benefit. 

-MS-DOS 5.0 and Windows 3.1 are factory installed on PC products 
 excluding DECpc 400ST
 
                    **************************
           
A few months ago US employees received a special edition of DESKTOP 
TIMES, announcing our major new PC program.  

DESKTOP DIRECT has totally redefined the way personal computers are 
sold, serviced and supported to our external customers.  And now -- to 
all US EMPLOYEES -- DESKTOP DIRECT offers an exciting program with 
outstanding value.  Now you have the opportunity to see for yourself 
why DIGITAL is shaking up the PC industry.

EFFECTIVE MAY 18, 1992 
TO PLACE YOUR ORDER CALL:

              1-800-PC BY DEC (1-800-722-9332)

	 MONDAY thru FRIDAY, 5:30 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. ET


SmartSuite is a trademark of Lotus Development Corporation.
**************************
    

    What price will we pay for the system? Is it the price listed in the
    catalog, List price on AQS or Standard price on AQS? It is my
    understanding we lowered our prices this week on the 325C, 333C and
    425C which makes prices in the catalog incorrect.
    
    The List price for a DJ-PC463-12 is 2,199 versus Standard price of
    2,619.  Since the warranty for EPP is return to Digital can we assume
    we will get 20% off of the List price of $2,199?
    
    BTW, I noticed in the paper this AM that INTEL is lowering the prices
    on the 486 chip by 50% on quantities of >1000. Does this mean we may
    lower our prices further?
    
    
    
    

    We get 20 off of the DESKTOP Direct Catalog price.  The price for a
    DJ-PC463-12 is $2,949.  With the 20% discount, emploee price is
    $2359.20.
    Ken
    

    
    -.1
    
    Sorry to add to the confusion but where did you get the prices for the
    DJ-PC-463-12 (DECstation 333c; 14" Multi-sync Color; 8MB)?  In the 
    Spring 1992 DESKTOP DIRECT from DIGITAL catalogue the price is $2,949
    and even with the employee discount, the price is $2,359.20.
    
    Clarification please.

    I just called Desktop Direct 800-722-9332 and was told the price for
    the DJ-PC363-12 is $2,619. Since the catalog was printed we have had a
    price decrease on the 325,333 and a couple other systems.
    
    The person I talked to said they would be getting their training on EPP
    tomorrow morning.
    
    Tom

    Thanks Tom!
    
    Mark

    
    
    Thanks for the new info.....will be waiting for May 18th.
    
    What do you think about these prices as compared to what you can
    get through "Computer Shopper".  I know nothing is cast in concrete
    but even with the discount, these prices don't seem so WOW to me.
    
    Comments, please.
    

    Well,
    
    I have been considering the purchase of a 486/33.  I have a price of
    $1700.  There is no absolute exact configuration match with DEC, but a
    425c is the same except it is only 25 MHZ instead of 33 MHZ and costs
    $650 more (employee price).  The 433ST is basically the same
    configuration except it has an EISA bus and is $1700 more (employee
    price).  I understand that Digital isn't trying to beat the lowest
    prices in the industry, but I would tend to expect that the employee
    price sould come closer to the lower prices in the industry.
    
    IMHO,
    
    Ken
    

    If the prices are getting that close, then I should think that the
    interest-free loans and free software would tend to tip the scale for an
    employee towards buying the Digital machine.
    
    Steve

	The "free loan" helps
	How long is the guarantee on our stuff (free walk in service?)
		I heard 1 and 5 years from a couple of sources.
	Not built by a "sheetbender"

    Yes, I guess under certain situations the "free" loan can help, but it
    takes a heck of alot to make up $650 for a machine that is slower or
    a 2X cost for a machine that is better only in that it has an EISA bus.
    
    Digital's warranty is 1 year "return to Digital" either ship it in or
    take it to a Digital Servicenter.
    
    Ken
    

    re: 151, 154
    
    IMHO if you can find a 486/33 for $1700 you are wasting your time
    reading this note. You should be running to the store to buy it without
    wasting anymore time.
    
    By the way the DEC 425C (DJ-PC465-06) has a LIST price (which I beleive
    the EPP will get 20% off) of $2167. Less 20% comes up to $1760. If you
    can beat that go for it. What would the total payback be after
    financing that 486/33 for 2 years. I doubt it would be less than $1760.
    
    Just my opinion!
    
    Drew
    

    Re: .155 "...DJ-PC465-06 has a LIST price of $2167." 
    
    The Spring 1992 Desktop Direct catalog shows a price of $3,149 for the
    DJ-PC465-06.  Has there been a price reduction?
    
    		Steve

    re: .156
    
    Yes, there has been a reduction. Call PCBYDEC and they quote $2719 at
    standard warranty. At list warranty I show (via AQS) $ 2167.
    
    Do not use the prices listed in PCBYDEC without calling them first.
    They like to print the catalog on Mondays and change published prices
    on Monday afternoons, after the catalogs have printed. Makes sense to
    me!
    
    Drew
    

    re: EPP and prices ...
    
    Yawn.  DEC still regards its employees as just another revenue source.
    I don't see any buy-in here from management to help employees update
    their skill sets in the PC desktop arena.
    
    If you need a PC, buy one from someone who is willing to treat you as
    a *customer* instead of as a nuisance.  Most of the mainstream vendors
    offer systems with more capabilities, more services (they FEDEX parts
    to you, or come to your house to fix it), and charge less than DEC,
    even with the "discount".  If you feel that this is disloyal to DEC,
    then take the money you save and write a check to Ken Olsen.  Maybe
    even better, take the money you save, write a check to your favorite
    charity, and get DEC to match it ...
    
    re: interest-free loans ...
    
    I guess an interest-free loan looks good if you're only alternative is
    buying a PC on Mastercard at 22% interest.  Given the price of today's
    PC's, a *fully* configured top-of-the-line system should cost about
    $2500-$3000, with lots of goodies thrown in.  A great system for home
    should only cost about $1500-$1900.  
    
    And what happens to the interest-free loan if you get Serp'd, TFSO'd,
    or just plain laid off?
    
    Geoffrey
    

    RE: previous note
    
    Please describe what you mean by a "great system for home use". Also,
    who is selling it for $1500-$1900?  I'm thinking of  buying and am trying to
    figure out what to look for.
    Thanks.
    
    Hillel
    
    

    
    It never hurts to get a quote from Desktop Direct first.  The
    DECstation 320sx package is an acceptable "non-Windows" home
    machine, and the DECpc 420sx is a good "Windows" system.  They
    will load and run just about any software you can afford for
    home use, including games and whatnot.  Then you can compare
    these prices and features to the reputable mailorder ads, the
    PC superstore prices, and the local PC shop prices.
    
    To me, home use means that the expensive peripherals get left off.
    Things like laser printers, gigabyte hard disks, 16" color monitors,
    and the like.  Any one of these things can easily cost as much as
    the entire base computer system, but may end up being marginally
    utilized.  It also means that you can forgo the fancy cabinetry
    and the name-brand logo.
    
    I originally used the DELL 386/16 as my low-end benchmark and the
    COMPAQ Deskpro 333c as the "professional" system.  There was about
    a $3000 true price difference between the two.  Now, I'm tend to
    use the Gateway 386/20sx system as the low-end benchmark (at $1595).
    The DEC EPP price on a couple of the packages approaches this, and
    the addition of the Lotus Smartsuite is attractive, if you need it.
    
    The real bargains are to be found at small local PC shops and at
    computer shows.  There are tradeoffs:  support is usually limited
    to the guy behind the counter who literally builds you a system
    from the eight major PC food groups, maybe loads DOS and Windows,
    and charges you components-price-plus-fifty-dollars for a system.
    Two guys in a strip-mall storefront close by are charging $1799
    for a basic 486/33 system, and you'll spend another $400 for the
    memory, disk space, and software needed to have a good Windows box.
    
    This is just the start, if you're a noter with some time to spend,
    you can get lots more detail out of IBMPC-92 and DECSTATION.
    
    Geoff

re: .160:
    
    To me, home use means that the expensive peripherals get left off.
    Things like laser printers, gigabyte hard disks, 16" color monitors,
    and the like.  Any one of these things can easily cost as much as
    the entire base computer system, but may end up being marginally
    utilized.  It also means that you can forgo the fancy cabinetry
    and the name-brand logo.
    
Amusing reading this on my home computer with it's 16" color monitor
and 1/2 gigabyte of hard disk, mostly full.

Times are changing, folks, and the days when an entire operating system
fit on two RK05's with room to spare are long past.

Martin.

Cross-posted from Employee Purchase Notes File
              <<< SHALOT::NOTE$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]EMPPURPRO.NOTE;7 >>>
                         -< Employee Purchase Program >-
================================================================================
Note 429.86            New Desktop Direct Purchase Program              86 of 86
SAURUS::YOUNG                                        19 lines  22-MAY-1992 08:08
               -< New policy stinks.  We pay more than before. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What's going on here?
    
    I want to buy a hard drive -  the 209MB SCSI, # PCXAR-AA.
    
    A few weeks ago, I called DECDirect for a price.
    
    My cost = $ 450.00   [50% off then list of $900.00]
    
    I decided to wait for my tax refund.  I got it and called DESKTOP
    Direct last nite.
    
    My new cost = $560.00   [20% off new list of $700.00]
    
    What crud!  Why do employees now have to pay more - $110.00 more?
    
    Who's in charge?  This is insane.  I'll buy from someone else.
    Digital just lost a good customer.
    
    Jim 
    

    I just perused the "new Desktop catalog" and observed the following
    	1. Prices still way too high even with 20% discount.
    	2. Only system packages eligible for pay roll deduction- bunch of 
    	   crap.
    	3. Not leading technology on low end systems- probably have a ware
    	   house to unload.
    	4. Who in their right mind wants a Tandy clone?????
    	5. Who wants to pay $200 more for a comparable disk drive???
    	6. Who wants to pay $100 more for a coprocessor??
    If any of you dispute what is written above I can back it up with any
    major PC magazine and I will FAX you latest prices of what things
    should cost. The new EPP is the old EPP with window dressing.All the 
    hoopla that I heard about DEC wanting to "do right" for their own
    employees and buy DEC pcs is out right GARBAGE!!!!!!!!!! All they want
    to do is make money off of us....
    	regards
    	John
    

    
    Gee, John, I always thought those PDT's were a great deal. 
    I just wish we could've gotten GIGI's.
    
    Dennis
    
    

    RE: .163
    
    >The new EPP is the old EPP with window dressing.All the  hoopla that I
    >heard about DEC wanting to "do right" for their own employees and buy
    >DEC pcs is out right GARBAGE!!!!!!!!!! All they want to do is make
    >money off of us....
    
    Well, if they are, they're sure playing hard to get.  I called the 800
    number the other day and when they found out I was a DEC employee they
    said I had to call back after 5:30.  OK, so I called back after 5:30
    and never got beyond a recording and some elevator music that
    entertained me for about twenty minutes.  
    
    All I wanted to ask was the price.
    

    Could someone explain to me the wisdom of us having to call after
    5:30 p.m. to ask about buying a PC, and why we cant call before that
    time?
    
    I dont buy the reason that if we do call during office hours, they'll
    have to hire more people to answer the phones, if DEC is selling so
    much PC's that they cant keep up , then they should hire more people
    to answer the phones !

    I mean, my money is the same as the money of another person who do not
    work in DEC, or is it that Iam not a "real" customer since I work for
    the same company the sells the PC?

    Will this policy carry over to maintenance too? if i buy the PC from
    DEC and have to bring it to some repair, would i have to come in to
    the DEC PC repair shop only at the last day of each month after the
    "real" customers ? else I have to wait for the next last day of the
    next month...

    Iam going to buy a PC from a company where they are happy to get my
    call any time of the day, when I wish to talk to them, not when they
    decide they want to hear from me !

    /Nasser    

First off;  I am not trying to defend the policy of calling after 5:30pm, but
think about it from a different perspective.

One night when I called, I had a rather significant wait on hold - I've heard
other people speak of waiting 20-40 minutes.

I would guess (and this is just a guess) that the people in charge probably
thought this out a little bit:  The day this program starts, and for the first
few days (possibly weeks) thereafter, we are going to probably see more
phone traffic then we can handle.  A lot of this traffic is going to be
speculative, i.e. price and configuration queries, and will probably not
immediately result in sales - in fact, this is almost a given, since a lot
of DEC employees probably aren't going to have (or have access to) a catalog.

Now; there is no way we can possibly staff for such a large anticipated call
volume increase; we may be able to put extra people on for some of the load,
but not all of it.  Besides which, increasing staffing increases costs, and
with increased costs we may not be able to offer 20% off.

So, we have a situation where we know there is going to be an impact (possibly
significant).  We also have an existing customer base (most of which have
a catalog and know what they want) which we cannot leave on hold for 20-40
minutes (there is generally an upper limit to the amount of time a "typical"
customer will wait on hold before hanging up, we do not want to exceed this
limit).  To leave an external customer on hold for an excessive amount of time
would be far more damaging to our reputation, then to leave an internal customer
on hold.  We also know that internal customers are probably not going to be
buying more then 2 systems, and will probably spend less then $10,000 (assuming
pay roll deduction); the external customer we left on hold who hung up, may
have spent much more then that.

And, for those internal customers that know what they want to order; we'll
give an easy mechanism where they just send Email.

----------------

Now, i'll grant you, there are some things which could have made this process
easier, such as placing the entire catalog online in VTX.

fwiw
--Scott

    FWIW, the entire Desktop Direct catalog is on-line in the Electronic
    Connection (formerly called the Electronic Store).  Actually, almost
    all of DEC's HW/SW/Service products are described and available for
    purchase through this channel.  We expect to have almost 400,000
    customer log-ins during FY92 with significant business (several hundred
    millions of $) and significant growth year over year.
    
    From any VTX100 compatible terminal, dial 1-800-234-1998.  1200-9600
    baud.  It's all menu driven.  Available from 7:00 a.m. to midnight
    (Eastern Time) 365 days/year.  Log-in and password applications are 
    all done on-line.  Try it!

Re .168

You know what might help, would be to put this information in VTX EPP, under
a topic of "online catalog access".

Thanks for the info.

--Scott

RE: .168

Don't you need a modem to do what you described??  I don't have one!

I, as an internal customer, would like to access this.  Can a node be used via
SET HOST??

Lee G.

  RE: .167

> I would guess (and this is just a guess) that the people in charge probably
> thought this out a little bit:

  Would you like to render a second guess?

    RE: 168 (my own note)
    
    I'll resist the opportunity to flame at the people who wrote me rather
    angry notes to say that they didn't have modems!  "How the **** do you
    expect me to access this?" one of the notes asked.
    
    Perhaps my attempt to shed some light on the subject will be
    appreciated by the rest of you.
    
    The information in note 168 is correct if you have access to a modem
    (like using your DEC 320P notebook at home?).  However, from work,
    there are two possibilities:
    
    1.  From a lat prompt, type either C WATN or C TSN (whichever service
    you have in your area).  Then type DEC.DEMO   That will take you
    directly to the Electronic Connection.  I'm not certain how this
    applies outside the U.S., but I doubt it works.
    
    2.  If you can access a SITE, C DDD.  Then type C ECONN.  This will
    also take you directly to the E-Connection.
    
    It is impossible to SET HOST and gain access because the E-Connection
    is a system intended for customer use and is therefore separated from
    the network.
    
    Hope this helps,
    Chet

    re: .172
    
>   (like using your DEC 320P notebook at home?).  However, from work,
    
    Does this smack of "Let them eat cake?"
    
    re: .166
    
    My own feeling is that we're once again being asked to pay a premium
    to DEC for lots of conditions and sub-standard service.  As I said in
    a previous note, go and buy a PC from a company who is willing to give
    you a good price and treat you like a real customer.  If you feel any
    guilt about it, make out a check for the difference and mail it to
    Ken Olsen.  That way you'll get the system and service you deserve,
    and DEC gets what it seems to desire most these days:  money without
    the bother of a customer to support.
    
    Geoff Unland
    

    
    Geoff,
    
    You've become a bitter man. Maybe it's time to get out of Texas ...
    
    - Andy

    After being one of the biggest noisemakers on this issue,
    Ironically I won't be able to participate in it
    as I am getting laid off next week.
    
    Oh well, Good Luck to all of you.
    
    Mark

    re: .174
    
    Hi Andy,
    
    Texas isn't so bad, Austin has been much preferable over Houston.
    But our office is across the court from Dell, and I live about a
    half-mile from CompuAdd's headquarters.  I'm immersed in shop-talk
    with my neighbors most of the time, and I get to see first-hand
    how the other companies succeed in the PC business, and I *know*
    that DEC can do the same.  But we don't have many shots left, so
    I get hyper-critical sometimes.
    
    Anyway, have a good one.
    
    Geoff