Conference 7.286::digital

    i think that the employee should be the one responsible for their career, 
    and  its direction, after all they know more than any one else what they
    really want to do, and enjoy working at, and what is fun for them to 
    work at..but that does not mean they cant ask their manager for advice, 
    help etc.. in achieving their goals..
   
    if one sits around waiting to their Boss to come and take them by the 
    hand to where they want to go, it will be too late by then..
    
    but remember that the important thing is to do something that one enjoys, 
    give the person real satisfaction, and do the best one can at it, and to 
    have fun doing it.. 
    
    that is all one have to worry about.. 
    
    every thing else will follow, promotions, nice titles and raises if that is
    what one really works for , it will come by itself and on its own time..
    but it should not be one's goal for comming to work...i think that 
    knowledge is the real power...not titles...and not even $$'s  

   /nasser                         

    I would have to say your career is owned by you and no one else
    including your employer and manager.  However, The group that I 
    work for uses job plans to help you and your manager understand 
    what your job is and how you can obtain goals. part of this includes
    training.  This is also used for budget purposes related to training.
    Once you  and your supervisor review this document and it is signed
    you are pretty well guaranteed the training you requested as long
    as you hold up to your end of the bargain.  I you are lucky you will
    find a good manager who will help groom you, and in some cases push
    you if he believes you have additional talent that maybe even you
    yourself do not realize.  But again it is your life and your decisions
    that will determine where you are headed.
    

    You really need to manage your own career which includes seeking
    training and counsel from your manager and peers whom you respect.
    Depending on where you are located and what your specialty area is,
    you may very well have to make many choices through the years about
    what positions to accept, what career path to follow etc.
    
    As a manager, I try to insure that my people are in the most productive
    role possible both for their good and for the sake of the company's
    profits.  And over time, I want to see my people grow, mature, and reap
    promotions in the process.  Believe me, there is nothing more exciting
    than to see the results of a long term grooming process (I've got folks
    who worked for me for over 5 years whom I've seen blossom -- I even
    track folks who have left my group and moved on).
    
    At the same time, even a first line supervisor with 10-12 direct
    reports can't possibly spend more than 4-5 hours per year with each
    individual doing career planning.
    
    Take charge of your own career planning, but ask for your manager's
    help and coaching.  Some of my most significant growth has come by my
    explicitly requesting my managers (1 and 2 levels above) for critique
    and coaching.  You get a balanced view of how you've done in a
    particular situation (we're often either too hard on ourselves or
    conversely have bloated views of how we've done).

I think this company does a lousy job of grooming people.

It perpetuates The Big Lie: Everyone at DEC does an excellent job. We're all
self-motivated. There's really no need for managers or supervisors to be
hands-on.

It is a very humane environment to work in, I'll grant that. No managers
running around the halls like gorillas sticking their heads into the
employees' work. But it's also phony. Managers here have low expectations of
employees. Since we're all "in charge of our own careers", we're all doing fine,
right?

I agree that this company is "people-oriented." But what that means is--you
have the right to be as mediocre as you want to. We're not gonna push you.

I wish this company had higher expectations of its employees, and wish it had
managers who didn't hide their heads in the ceiling.

Vicki Meagher

    In referance to the Bait and Switch noter 1704 talked about. What can
    one
    do if it does happen to them??????? is there any recourse one may
    have..

    I should not be responding to this topic, but can not resist the
    opportunity to tell of my situation.
    
    When I excepted my present job, it was with the understanding that I
    would be working in the field/career path I had been working for the
    past 18 years (8 yrs with DEC, 2 yrs ago). I was under the impression
    that I would be working 80% in that field and 20% in another field,
    which I agreed was a pleasing situation.
    
    Once in the job (DEC had relocated me and everything) about two months,
    I was told my job function had changed to 50% working in my career
    field and 50% working the other.
    
    Now (2 years later), I am working 10% in my career field and 90% in the
    other field. 
    
    So, I feel I had been "grooming" for my career for 18 years, with DECs
    help for 8 years of that.... YET all that "grooming" has gone up in
    smoke.
    
    Now, because of my "new career" (as I'm told I have), I now get far
    lower PAs than I've been use to... Due to the major learning curve I've
    been faced with. This is not pointed at any particular manager, but to
    the fact there had been three management changes, which left the
    agreement with the "hiring manager" out in the cold.....
    
    My point.... Be very sure you have full control (at all times) of your
    own career and career path. Do not let anyone cause you to turn in a
    direction you do not want.
    
    Back to "read only" mode..!!!
    
    

    I have to agree to some extent with Vicki that DEC does a lousy job
    of grooming people.  It isn't that courses aren't available, or that
    most management is not sensitive to the issue, or that lot's of folks
    are not taking personal ownership.......it's more that DEC, as a
    corporate entity talks a good game, but basically delivers diddly (and
    I don't mean the product {:^).
    
    I'm talking about the management training that takes qualified
    candidates through a highly structured 3-5 yr program where they work in
    a variety of positions to get a good handle on how the total business
    works.  While on the subject, a good example of our attitude of
    Corporate neglect is our absolutely shameful college hiring program,
    or rather lack thereof.  It's pretty much every man for himself.
    
    Oh yes, I've been baited and switched twice.  Once I even had it in
    writing as part of the offer letter, and then was simply told "things
    change".  Personnel of course, the ultimate tool of management, quietly
    acquiesced.                                  

    I took a job job in Manufacturing that moved me from a level 4 to a
    Level 6 [ok it was some years ago]. I was paid at the level 6 rate.
    There were ~60 people doing the similar job, including a WC2 Admin who
    wanted to move up, Level 2, Level 4, Level 6 and LEVEL 8. There was an
    admission by management that there was no "good job definition" and
    many of the lower levels were doing more/better than the higher levels.
    
    At the last day of the 6 months probation period [yes, we used to have
    those for evey promotion] I was kept after hours and informed that my
    work was not up to Level 6 and I was being moved back to Level 4. No
    pay change just back to Level 4. No recourse.
    
    I only had to explain this until the changes disappeared from my EDCF
    
    Howard

    Seems to me that "times" have changed, and that we will (hopefully)
    continue to see fewer managers per employee. Which means that fewer
    people become managers...and therefore fewer should be groomed for
    management. 
    
    At the same time it is human nature to want to continue to grow. In the
    past this meants (to many) promotion to management. In the future?
    Maybe to increased expertise, or possibly breadth of knowledge. Or
    worse, no real growth.
    
    I was a manager here for ten years, got great reviews, but am now an IC
    - and much happier. The change gives me the opportunity to learn, to
    focus, and to contribute in a very direct way. IMHO this is in no way a
    demotion. I'd much rather be doing this type of work now, and clearly
    the company prefers it as well.
    
    What I really like about DEC is that you can do a wide variety of
    things if you are determined. Sometimes it takes lots of personal time
    to learn new things and then patience to find a way to apply it, but
    I'm hoping to be very happy doing IC work for years to come.
    
    /Tim

    I'm also a former manager (12 years), who is now a very happy IC.
    
    I've been offered a couple of management opportunities in the interim
    6 years, but have turned them down.....just didn't want to rejoin the
    "game", and believe me it is a game.
    
    I think younger employees who see moving into management as somehow
    being a logical career goal, are going to be increasingly disappointed.
    Middle level management is under heavy scrutiny, and the whole trend
    of the industry is toward reduced levels and numbers of managers.  On
    the whole, I believe this is good.
    
    On what can you do if you are baited-and-switched???  NADA.  I don't
    think any of the baiting is deliberate, and most management lacks the
    guts to stick up for someone who is being screwed.  One would think
    that management would try to do what is right....and that Personnel
    would take the case of the individual.  My direct experience is that
    personnel will always support management, even when they are wrong.
                                                             

    It's really clear that I'm supposed to manage my own career at DEC.
    And I've generally been quite happy with the non-interference of my
    management thus far.  But being in a remote field office in a beautiful 
    area, my real choices are limited, because I'm not moving.  I've been 
    doing this a long time and pretty much know what my abilities are.
    
    However, I'm a Sales Support Consultant I in Channels, and no one, I
    mean NO ONE, can tell me what it takes to make Consultant II in the
    field.  This tells me it's an arbitrary, politically-driven process
    with little linkage to the real work that I do.  Come to think of it,
    it's like trying to earn an Excellence Award !
    
    karl

 Title:     Take Control of Your Career
 Author(s): Labich, Kenneth
 Journal:   Fortune
            v. 124, n. 12   Nov. 18, 1991   pp. 87-88,92,96

            Keeping your job has become a job in itself, as thousands of
            laid-off managers now realize.  Employers are evaluating workers
            more ruthlessly than in the past, and the terms of the unwritten
            contract between employees and their company, changing for the
            past decade, have grown almost indecipherable.  It can't all be
            blamed on restructuring; rapid changes in technology and
            business methods are also wiping out jobs with brutal swiftness. 
            To survive this severe climatic change and avoid becoming a
            "dinosaur", you must take control of your own career and manage
            it.  No one else is responsible for your development but
            yourself.  Your company's performance appraisal probably doesn't
            tell you enough; you must get some sort of feedback, either
            formal or informal, from peers and subordinates.  What you learn
            might surprise you.

Frank Zappa on how it is :

".... you're dealing with real mental pygmies in these record companies.
These guys just do not have musical priorities.  Their priority is, "Keep 
my job, keep my job."  They get up in the morning, look in the mirror, 
spray their hair and say "I'm going to KEEP MY JOB.  I don't care how many
Milli Vanillis I gotta sign, I'm keepin' my job."  And they do.  They 
    recycle from one company to another.  They get fired because they made 
    a mistake, they signed the wrong Milli Vanilli
and they got caught.  They'll wind up at another record company.  These
guys never go from record company to gas station; they move sideways,
from record company A to record company B.  The top executives just rotate.
Now, how did they earn the RIGHT to be the gods of the record industry ?
These f_______ came from the shoe business, a lot of them.  And they're the
ones who decide who gets the zillion-dollar contract, the big tour, the
big hosejob on MTV.  

These esteemed gentlemen, based on advice received from hip magazines that 
tell you what's hot, will then reshape the size and texture of American 
musical culture in their own pinhead image."

    I think this whole idea of people who are looking for a list of things
    they have to do to get promoted is faulty.  This ain't college, people.
    
    Promotions are subjective and always have been.  I've worked for the
    Army, Navy, IBM, a junior college, Aerospace company and DEC, and I
    have NEVER heard of promotions based on checking items off on a list.
    
    As a manager I always refused to provide such lists...and would do so
    again if ever forced into management.  It just doesn't make sense.
    Stop and think.....would you really want to be part of an organization
    made up of automatons who got promoted so objectively...and even worse
    work for a manager who operated in such a de-humanizing manner??  I
    sure as hell wouldn't.

    .15 Amen, Amen......
    
    Only time I saw promotions happen as a result of a "check list" was
    when I worked for Ma Bell and the unions wrote the check list, ugh!!
    
    Karen
    

re: .15,.16

Jeeez, we can only think of this issue in black-and-white terms, is
that it?

It is valid that an employee would want to hear from his/her manager
what she/he needs to do to get promoted to the next level, no?  This
does not have to be a canned "checklist" or other dehumanized process.
Shouldn't it be something better than totally subjective "feelings" on
the manager's part though?  Otherwise you always end up with the
manager's golfing buddies getting the promotions.

								paul

    RE .11
    
    Dick, on a number of occasions, I have seen personnel in ZKO take the
    side of the employee.  ZKO has the best pers. mgrs. and consultants
    that I have experienced in my 15 years at DEC and previous lives.
    

RE: .15

How about the Scouts - you earn n merrit badges and you get a promotion.  
The military works the same way with an element of recommendation from your 
superiors and your fitness evaluations.  Any officer or non-com who dosen't 
like you can torpedo your promotion as long as they can backup their 
reasons.  

In the business world things are a lot more political and have an element 
of supply and demand.  If it is perceived that the business needs more of 
your particular skill, promotions are more readily avaiable.  Right now, 
unfortunately, business does not have much demand for any more of most 
skills.  Of course, politics can overcome all obsticals.

John

    Promotions?  The ends being???
     - Status
     _ Power
     - Money
    And the ends of these (eventually) being greater happiness/contentment?
    
    .1 spoke the truth.  I also believe that we focus more on our work and
    perhaps a little less on advancement.  After all, DEC's paying us to 
    work to make the company money, not work to become managers. If you do
    well, the money/promotions will come on their own, either in your
    current job or another opportunity.  I don't know about you, but I'd
    rather earn a promotion from a history of being a good worker as
    opposed to the effect of posturing and grooming.  
    
    Unfortunately, our society equates lack of frequent advancement to
    career failure.  This is very sad because it puts undue pressure on the
    system to advance people into higher paid pseudo-management positions
    that add little or less to overall productivity.  The realm of middle 
    management has swelled over the past couple decades for this very reason 
    and we have succeeded in converting productive individual contributors to
    higher paid middle managers who have now lost their technical edge and 
    have become (in many cases) more of a burden to the system than an
    asset. 
    
    I'm going back to work.
    
    Dave

>   Re. .-(a few), which responded to "what can you do if your baited and
>   switched" with NADA...

    There is something you can do -- decide how miffed you are, and if
    you're miffed enough, vote with your feet.  If the situation gets bad
    enough in your career field, there will be enough pedavotes to change
    the circumstances.  On the other hand, if you're just unlucky enough to
    be in a bad situation, you might end up in a better one next time...

>   Re .-1 (at least when I started replying)
>
>   I also believe that we focus more on our work and
>   perhaps a little less on advancement.  After all, DEC's paying us to 
>   work to make the company money, not work to become managers.

    Don't forget the other side of the economic equation -- we're working
    to make money, so that we can feed our families :-)

    And promotions, to management or not, mean food and job satisfaction.
    What feedback do you get to show that you're doing a good job?  A few
    attaboys help, but it is often the sacrificial tokens of appreciation,
    such as stock options, increased pay, promotions, or other sharing of
    limited resources, which keep you going during tough times.

>   If you do well, the money/promotions will come on their own, either
>   in your current job or another opportunity.

    I've been here for 7 years, and for the first 5, my manager told me
    this and it was true.  Then it stopped being true, and I recently moved
    groups in search of that "other opportunity."  If it's true where you
    are, then I'm glad for you.  It is not universally true at Digital (and
    probably not at any other company).

    The big question in my mind is, what should my response be when it
    ceases to be true in the environment I find myself in?

>   I don't know about you, but I'd
>   rather earn a promotion from a history of being a good worker as
>   opposed to the effect of posturing and grooming.  

    AMEN.  Everybody wants this.  But I'm being forced to be more cynical
    as life goes on.  When the challenging and promising projects get
    handed out, do they go to the person who _needs_ the promotion or the
    challenge or the responsibility?  Or do they go to the person who is
    of sufficient rank?  Is it more effective to plug away in hopes of
    being "discovered", or to devote energy to gaining the necessary rank
    and authority, or leveraged leadership position, so that you can land
    a juicy project and make it work?
    
>   Unfortunately, our society equates lack of frequent advancement to
>   career failure.  This is very sad because it puts undue pressure on the
>   system to advance people into higher paid pseudo-management positions
>   that add little or less to overall productivity.  The realm of middle 
>   management has swelled over the past couple decades for this very reason 
>   and we have succeeded in converting productive individual contributors to
>   higher paid middle managers who have now lost their technical edge and 
>   have become (in many cases) more of a burden to the system than an
>   asset. 
    
    I agree with the sentiments (promotions to pseudo-management jobs may
    not be the best use of technical people).  However, Digital appears to
    me to be structured to encourage IC's to move in this direction.  If I
    want to meet my life goals, I need a career that pays, and the current
    system seems to reward people who "take on more responsibility."  And
    unfortunately, the way to do that is to get promoted, because you don't
    get both the responsibility and authority if you don't have the right
    number of stripes!

    This topic is hitting a sore spot, because I've been watching a number
    of good, competent, productive freinds "succeed" (i.e. continue to feed
    their families, and stay technically challenged) by one or more of the
    following:

       A. Relocating out of MA.
       B. Relocating out of Digital.
       C. Playing the game at the expense of helping Digital.

    I recently voted with my feet.  I think I made a good choice, but only
    time will tell.  I wish that I had started "managing my career" before
    I got this dose of cynicism...

    Re .18 .... I'm pleased that ZKO personnel is like that, Jack.  My
    opinions will be forever tempered by the horrid experiences I and many
    others had with MKO personnel in '86, when the plug was pulled in the
    Target Sales Force.  In that case we had Personnel proactively working
    hand-in-hand with "management" (and I use the word loosely) to attempt
    to fire 28 people who had not been able to find a job in 90 days.
    
    The process chosen was brutal.....out of about 50 people, 28 suddenly
    received outrageous performance reviews which were literally all "5's".
    These were, without exception, people who had always been 2's.  In
    order to do this, management had to first reclassify us as Sales Reps
    although our offer letters specifically said that we would hold onto
    our old job titles in case Target Sales ever folded.  Having done this,
    they then wrote devastating reviews on us, evaluating us on every
    sales criteria, even though many of us had less than 6 months on the
    job.  This was done with the total cooperation of personnel...total.
    They even went to far as to intervene when some of us did find jobs,
    and make sure that our potential bosses knew about the poor rating.
    
    Several people cracked up...including yours truly who was out on STD
    for almost three months.  Others cried a lot at their desks.  I, for a
    short period of time even seriously considered shooting my manager.
    Only when several of us who were very senior mustered all the backing
    we could find, and literally stormed the office of the highest level
    MKO Personnel Manager did we receive a reprieve.  It was an experience
    I hope no one in Digital ever has to go through again.  I suppose it
    could be compared to people who survived Pearl Harbor and their
    subsequent feelings about Japan.
    
    I see one of the personnel people periodically in the Mill, and always
    get nauseous.
    
    Management, at the same time, went on a cruise to the Bahamas with all
    the secretaries and admin types.  Nice folks.  So much for the "old"
    DEC.

    Absolutely incredible.
    
    Mark
    

    ....but very true.  Actually, it was even nastier than that.
    
    Now, I have a bad stomach ache just thinking about it.

    MKO personnel is bad news. Unedicated, uninformed and too lazy to
    search for information. I was advised to accept a position in
    Switzerland. I did, it's great, but what I lost in pension plan, Social
    Security and other benefits or less expensive insurance rates, is
    incredible. Only because MKO personnel did not know the answers, and
    did not bother to investigate the answers. Personnel does not answer
    memos in two years. 
    
    Alltogether, the career path is only your own decision. However, there
    are managers that will help you get to a goal sooner or better. Others
    will put a great big wall in front of you. They are afraid that you
    might go after their own job! 
    
    Good luck to all and a better 1992.
    Ruth

    RE: .26
    
    >MKO personnel is bad news. Unedicated, uninformed and too lazy to
    
    Yes, but can they spel?
    

    Or probably more to the point, can they type?

    Can they sign illegibly?

    When did this note become another excuse for Personnel-bashing?  I am
    always amazed that the moderators never stop this behavior.  As a
    person who worked in the profession for over 20 years, I really resent
    the things said here...Let's get back to the base note, please.
    

    Re -1:
    
    Yes, let's get back to the base note, which I wrote.  I'd like to
    read more replies from people who have had their careers dead-end
    on them due to lack of Management support.  I know Personnel adds
    one more approval cycle to any promotion, but that is not the issue
    I'm focusing on.  I'd like people to reply who have had road-blocks
    and dead-ends placed upon them, yet still survived and moved up
    regardless of the obstacles.  How did these people get promotions/
    pay raises/status + responsibility increases ?  There must be some
    methods these successful DEC employees can share to help all of us.
    
    -Jill-

    
    It's all a question of:
    
    1) Who you know, not what you know.
    2) Where you went to school and which fraternities/societies you 
       belonged to
    3) Who you play golf with.
    
    I've resigned myself to being a plebe for the rest of my life.
    
    -Ed
    

"Career planning is a delusion.  You don't know what will be needed and more to
the point, you don't know what you are capable of"

"You don't prepare people for inventory anymore than you prepare product for
inventory"

"All this 'career path' is misleading to the person and may lead to bad mistakes
by the company"

"'Career path' suggests some gentle sloping path with clearly marked waystations
on the way to a clear destination" 

This reply is being entered for a noter who wishes to remain anonymous.  If you
wish to send mail to the author, send it to me and I will forward it on to the
author.  Unless you tell me otherwise, your mail header will be left on the
forwarded message.

Bob - Co-moderator DIGITAL


re:  .31

I'd like to comment on this.  Unfortunately, I feel the need to do this
anonymously because I don't want any bridges burned so to speak.


   > I'd like to read more replies from people who have had their careers 
   > dead-end on them due to lack of Management support.
   > I'd like people to reply who have had road-blocks and dead-ends placed 
   > upon them, yet still survived and moved up
   > regardless of the obstacles.  How did these people get promotions/
   > pay raises/status + responsibility increases ?  

Well, that's my career in a nut shell with DEC.  My first job in DEC, I 
didn't know what it actually was until I started working the job itself.
I didn't know anything about DEC ways at all.  So, about two years or
so in my job, I found out what I actually wanted to do in my career.  The
first switch to get to my career goal was easy as it was a career change
within the same group and a lateral move.  I made it clear to my new section 
of Management of why I was taking this job and where I wanted to go.  
I got alot of nods but that was about it.  

All I got was on the job training for the job I was doing and nothing else.  
No in-house classes were approved. Nothing. Zippo.  So after really learning 
my job and doing the best I can and then realizing I wasn't going to get 
anything for it, I started looking for another job within DEC.  It took alot 
of phone calls, alot of follow ups.  I didn't go for the job I wanted for my 
career because I knew I wasn't ready for it yet, but I also knew I was ready 
for the next step.  

So, as I was looking for a new interim job within DEC, I also switched 
responsibilities within my own group, working different shifts and so on.  
Management didn't care what I did really, as long as I didn't move up the 
chain and get promotions. I tried for the next step up also within my group 
but was road blocked fiercely.  Well, about 3 positions later within the same 
group, I finally got the interim job I needed to get to my career goal.  

When I got to the my next job, the 4th one now within DEC, it was even
worse than where I came from.  I got the title I needed for the next step
up, but the job was just about the same as the one I left from my previous 
job.  This management was soooo bad that I seriously started looking for
jobs outside of DEC.  I went to several interviews outside of DEC during
this time.  Still, though, I did the best I could in the job I was doing
even though I hated it so much.  

I had 3 different managements since starting at DEC and all of them were 
road blocks of where I wanted to go.  I didn't have a good view of DEC at all. 
While I was looking for jobs outside DEC, I got the ok to start looking 
inside DEC also even though I had a commitment.  Well, I went for quite a few 
interviews within DEC.  I had atleast one every week.  I got a few offers.  
Unfortunately it wasn't really what I wanted to do for most of them, actually 
all of them.  I went on the interviews mostly for the experience and to
get away from my group a little bit without taking sick or vacation time.  I 
took a chance and took a step back.  It was considered a lateral by DEC, but I 
considered it a step back as it was the same type job I was in in jobs 2 and
3 for me within DEC and my new title pushed me back for my career goal.  
Fortunately, it turned out to be the right move.    

The management was completely different here.  I was respected in my job.  I
proved myself and they noticed.  I since took on greater responsibility and
had 4 different jobs within this group since starting here with them.  AND,
my current job is my career goal (job 8 in dec) with the title and money to go 
with it.  I'm a happy person in DEC right now and it happen in the worst of 
times in DECs history.


>There must be some methods these successful DEC employees can share to help 
 all of us.

One thing I learned on my interviews was to find out if they were going to
give you what you wanted.  If not then just go through the motions of the
interview to get the experience and that's it for them.  If they
are going to be another road block of where you want to go, it's not worth
going there in the first place.  

In my interviews, I actually said, "this is where I want to go within your
organization.  This is my goal for my career.  Is it possible to do that
within your group"  Then they would give you an answer.  It's up to you
to believe them or not.  In theory they can say yes it is, but they also
know behind the scenes the manager the job will be under will never take
you.  I remember the person I interviewed with in job number 5 saying to
me " you haven't even got this job yet and you're already looking to get 
out of it"  I came back and said "that's because I've been around alot and
been screwed alot within DEC.  I don't want it to happen to me again.  I 
just want to make it clear to you this is what I want out of this"  I found
it tough for me to say this as that was the first time I said something
like that in an interview, but I was happy I did it when I left the interview.
Two days later, I got the offer.  I took a week to get back to them because
I wanted to see if another offer was coming my way from another group.

Of all my job changes within DEC, 6 were lateral moves, one was a title
promotion but no money.  My last job was the promotion and career goal
I wanted.  It took me 5+ years to get where I wanted to go.

It is definitely up to management to give you your career goal.  You have
to prove yourself to them first.  After you done that and you think it is
time for the promotion and you don't get it, your answer is simple.  LEAVE.

One thing that I have always been consistent of in my 8 jobs at DEC and
the jobs before that is even if management or co-workers are making the
job a living nightmare, ALWAYS do your best, ALWAYS keep your mouth shut and
do your job, NEVER burn your bridges.  Your payback is when you go to your
manager and say, "I found another job".  The harder you worked for them
when it was tough, the harder it will be for them when you leave because
other people have to pick up the slack.  Especially in these days.  If
someone leaves, management will have a tough time writing a req since 
most groups have to cut back head count.

Don't stay too long if you know the management isn't going to live up
to YOUR standards. Find one that will.  There's the secret.

And through all the pain and the heartache, there is one thing I will
always be able to say.  I DID IT.  All the jobs I got it was because
of me.  I didn't rely on anyone to get me the jobs.  No friends, no
relatives, just me.

    My feelings go out to the author of .36 and the author of the
    base note.  Unfortunately, ordeals such as yours are fairly
    common here; see, for example, 1355.19, where I list many of
    the inequities I've observed over the years in this area, some
    (but not all :-)) of which I've endured myself.
    
    
    >> It is definitely up to management to give you your career goal. 
    >> You have to prove yourself to them first.  After you done that and
    >> you think it is time for the promotion and you don't get it, your
    >> answer is simple.  LEAVE.
    .
    .
    .
    >> Don't stay too long if you know the management isn't going to live
    >> up to YOUR standards. Find one that will.  There's the secret.
    
    This is indeed the secret.  Leave, leave again, and keep leaving,
    until you find managers who know that the fundamental key to their
    own success lies not in immersing themselves in the world of the
    management above them, but rather in the development and success
    of the people who work for them.
    
    It is quite possible (and not uncommon) to have to "go through"
    two or three consecutive bad groups before finding a better one. 
    They do exist.  You can find one eventually, even if by accident.
    
    If you need to circumvent the time-in-job "commitment" (e.g., two
    years for a WC4), that's possible too, especially if commitments
    that management made to you weren't honored, or if they "change
    the rules", or otherwise render your original agreements "null
    and void".  Most managers won't try to hold you if you're really
    unhappy, regardless of how long you've been in the position.
    
    
    >> Your payback is when you go to your manager and say, "I found
    >> another job".
    
    Truer words have rarely been spoken in this conference.  They may
    shaft you, and they may enjoy it, but in the end you demonstrate
    quite clearly, unmistakably, and publicly, that *you* have the
    ultimate control and authority over your destiny.  By depriving
    them of your productive services, you get the last word.
    And sometimes that last word echoes on for a long, long time.
    
    Chris

re: .37,
    
>    This is indeed the secret.  Leave, leave again, and keep leaving,
>    until you find managers who know that the fundamental key to their
>    own success lies not in immersing themselves in the world of the
>    management above them, but rather in the development and success
>    of the people who work for them.

    	Good luck...
    
>    If you need to circumvent the time-in-job "commitment" (e.g., two
>    years for a WC4), that's possible too, especially if commitments
>    that management made to you weren't honored, or if they "change
>    the rules", or otherwise render your original agreements "null
>    and void".  Most managers won't try to hold you if you're really
>    unhappy, regardless of how long you've been in the position.

    	Commitments in this company are primarily one way as far as
    I'm concerned.  First you commit yourself for two years, and then
    you either fulfill that two year committment, or you risk being
    "committed" as you nearly go insane attempting to circumvent the
    "commitment".

    	While it is indeed true that many managers won't try to hold
    you to the two year commitment, it is precisely those managers who
    *do* try to hold you to that commitment who are the ones who you
    typically need to escape from the most.  In other words, the two
    year commitment is a loop-hole just waiting to be abused by
    managerial tyrants and their co-conspirators in personnel.

    				    -davo

p.s.	See notes #1011 and #1556 for more on the two year commitment rathole.

	I agree with all the advice listed here, and would add one thing:
	DOCUMENT EVERYTHING.  If you interview and the outcome is that
	management promises to support you in A, B, and C, write a letter
	or EMail message to management, personnel, and yourself stating
	your understanding of the commitements to A, B, and C.  If they 
	don't throw it back at you then, it's agreed to in writing and 
	they can't later state there was some understanding.  Keep your 
	copy, so if the water gets cold and you have to leave you can show 
	the managers with whom you are interviewing what you were promised 
	vs. what you've gotten.

	Keep it forever.  You never know when you'll have to justify 
	moving before the two-year "commitment" is up.

	MM

    	It all depends on the manager....
    
    	When I was in a supervisory position, I talked monthly with people
    who worked for me. I worked with them on solutions to short term and
    long term goals. Education, OJT, courses, seminars, systems at home, 
    everything! Then were agreed to workable mini-goals. In one year my
    eight direct reports had all reached their short term goal. Some were
    simple.....get on first shift, others were very difficult.....
    transferring to another department and a totally different job. It was
    one of the most satisfying years of my professional life. 
    
    	I've never had a supervisor or manager who had as much interest in
    me as I had in those that worked for me. In many cases within DEC,
    managers have never been given the proper training in true career
    pathing. Then again, most have never had any real managerial training
    outside of their own managers.
    
    	If you really want to career path.....make one up and submit it to
    you manager with ALL of the pieces required to make short and long term
    goals. Tell him/her that their support is absolutely necessary to make
    it happen. Don't expect miracles. If you don't have short term and
    long term goals that are achievable you'll be discouraged and so will
    your manager.
    
    Ken