Conference 7.286::digital

         We had a similar situation here in Shrewsbury. There was limited
    time parking available in front of SHR1. Problem is that as you
    discovered some vehicles were there for the entire day. While others
    parked in a no parking section near the crosswalk. Traffic had become
    so disrupted due to a detour routing cars along that corridor that the
    town finally steeped in and banned all parking. They had a party the
    first week handing out 10's of parking tickets. Unfortunately this
    practice would be difficult to apply to the parking area you refer to.
    What you did was right the ball is now in security's court and I feel
    they're obliged to act on your complaint. Ashame that not everyone in
    this world is considerate.
    
            Bob

    
    Good luck and I mean that.  When I was at MKO, cars regularly
    parked in areas clearly marked no parking.  On a bad-weather
    day, it was no small feat to get out of the parking lot without
    sliding into someone because there was often no room left for
    for error.  Security's attitude was that other than putting 
    notices on the cars there was nothing they could do about it.
    I hope you have better luck.
    
    Steve
    

    We have more space in our parking lot then needed..
    
    
    On the other hand we don`t have a DCU...This is a joke to help you get
    your day started..
    

    re: .4

    I wanted to say something like that, but couldn't think of a
    nonflammable way. Thanks :-)
    

    The Security folks will never be able to enforce parking rules until,
    and unless they are given authority to have cars towed...period.
    Again, this is mostly a Massachusetts problem, where people learn
    from childhood that the rules really don't apply.
    
    No problem here at the DCU in CXO BTW.

I used to work in Security at the BUO facility for four years. 

Parking was horrendous!!! On a regular basis people would:

- Park in Fire Lanes
- Park on Corners
- Park on the grass
- Park in reserved spaces they had no right to use (Media Services, Health,
etc)
- Park in shipping areas

And all Security could do was write out stupid little notices that meant
nothing. Supposedly, if an employee got three, their manager was sent a
message. But more often than not (at BUO anyway) the manager had just as many
tickets as the employee!

The one time a car was towed at our facility, it turned out to be a customer's
car and the vehicle was damaged. Security got its proverbial A^^ chewed and 
DIGITAL had to pay for the damages. Never mind the fact that this car was
blocking a driveway.

What we need to do is make registering your car _MANDETORY_ at Security. And
have this file accessable to _ALL_ DEC Security personnel. If an employee has
more than three written notices, then they are issued $25.00 tickets. And to
make it so that DIGITAL does not make money off of this, have it so that the
money goes to the town in which the DEC facility resides in. 

I'd really love to have this implemented and see how some of these A^^%$^#
react to that.


Scott _who does not miss his days in Security and is glad BUO is closing...

re:    <<< Note 1676.7 by DELNI::FORTEN "Memories: Shadows without substance" >>>

>What we need to do is make registering your car _MANDETORY_ at Security. And
>have this file accessable to _ALL_ DEC Security personnel. If an employee has
>more than three written notices, then they are issued $25.00 tickets. And to
>make it so that DIGITAL does not make money off of this, have it so that the
>money goes to the town in which the DEC facility resides in. 



I know that the cities and towns have legal recourse to collect such fines,
just how would you propose that DEC collect on these 'tickets'?

Keeping in mind, that I believe it highly illegal (at least in Mass.) for
a company to make unauthorized deductions from my paycheck.

- George

>>I know that the cities and towns have legal recourse to collect such fines,
>>just how would you propose that DEC collect on these 'tickets'?

>>Keeping in mind, that I believe it highly illegal (at least in Mass.) for
>>a company to make unauthorized deductions from my paycheck.

George,

I have no idea how DEC would go about getting fines paid. Perhaps the tickets
could go to the city just like all other traffic citations for processing.
That would essentially give DEC security the power to ticket anyone on DEC
property.

I don't think they would ever deduct fines from an employee's payroll. It is
illegal, not to mention it'd screw up my balance! ;^)

But, DEC will _NEVER_ do this so the point is moot. There are jerks out there
that think nothing of making people's lives a little more inconvienent as long
as they can get their way. Parking like a^%$&*@ is just a facet of their
moronish lives.

Scott

    I used to have a bunch of "Tow Me" signs that I'd stick on the windows of 
    illegally parked cars.  Didn't have much affect, but I did feel better
    at the time.  Now that I've learned to expect this kind of behavior from 
    Mass drivers, I usually ignore it.  Although, a few months ago I did
    point out to a lady in a sports car that she was parking in a handicapped 
    zone.  Made her really mad because she was "in a hurry".  My error.  I
    forgot that all Mass drivers are "in a hurry" and are therefore justified 
    in <fill in the blank with your favorite Mass-driver story>.  At least
    I'm courteous enough to limp out of my car when I park in a handicapped
    zone.  My wife leaves the flashers on.  After all, there are limits ...
    ;^)
    
    Steve

    
    How to collect on tickets would be simple.  Have DEC security 
    enter into an agreement with the local municipality so that
    DEC security issues local town tickets just like the local
    police do.  You turn in the stubs to the local court.  After
    that it's between the local court and who was issued the ticket.
    DEC has nothing to do with it.
    
    Steve
    

    RE: .10  "Mass. drivers parking in handicapped spaces"
    
    Don't lay the blame on Mass. drivers.  One morning at MKO1 I watched a
    woman in a jogging outfit park her car in a handicapped space and get
    out and run in, presumably to the credit union.  She had  New Hampshire
    vanity plates that said something like I-JOG.
    
    And we've got another woman with NH plates at MKO1, a contractor who
    works as a secretary, who will cruise around and around the lot waiting
    for a space to open up close to the building.  If she doesn't find one
    after about ten minutes she parks in a handicapped space.  Tell
    Security?  One night when it was raining, I watched her get somebody
    from Security with an umbrella to walk her out to where her car was
    parked in a handicapped space.  She's also tried squeezing her little
    white car into part of a vanpool parking space, but she stopped doing
    that after I boxed her in a couple of times with the van.
    

    Many moons ago....  I worked for a summer at Detroit Diesel.  When
    anyone parked in an unauthorized area, security would attach a sticker
    to their windshield.  This sticker covered the entire windshield and
    took about 1/2 hour to remove.  That was 1973ish...  so by now there is 
    probably some legal reasons why you can't do that...   but I thought
    that was a great idea.  

    RE: 10
    
    Those people with the NH tags probably are Mass. Transplants.
    
    I had submitted a "DELTA" idea whereby people would be faced with a
    fine, which would go to charity, or be terminated for violating Company
    Policy. Otherwise the company could save money by not writing those
    tickets (what a farce) and better utilize security's time by not
    crusing the parking lots and wasting gas.
    
    Dave

    re: .12
    
    We know there are people like this from all states. Just more from
    Mass. Perhaps these two people you mention are two of the many
    transplanted people from Mass. who have moved to N.H? Then again,
    they could actually live in Mass. but have a summer/winter place
    in N.H. and reg. their cars in N.H. It happens a lot. Drive through
    the tony neighborhoods of Weston, Ma. and check out all the BMW's,
    Mercedes, etc.. with N.H. plates. It's amazing. I know I was originally
    from there and many of my friends parents did this to save a buck or
    two on Mass. fees. These are the chosen people. It still pisses me
    off when I'm back there visiting my folks.
    
    Jim C.
    

    
    
    
      On the other side of the coin, a few years back,  there
    were simply not enough parking spaces at the SHR facility
    for all the employees.  (This is no longer a problem...  :^(
    The situation was even worse during the so-called "Storage
    days"...     
    
      After driving 65 miles (one way)  through a blinding snowstorm
    to get to work, only to find the lot not_plowed,   I didn't
    feel at all bad about availing myself of a few feet of 
    illegal (but plowed)  parking...   I returned the ticket to
    the security office,  and asked them if they were willing
    to supply Valet service when parking wasn't available.  
    End of discussion...
    
    
    						-al
    

    A simple solution to the parking problem here at Digital is easy.
    
    For each ticket issued to an employee, that employee's raise/review is
    pushed out one month. Repeat offenders would never get a raise, and
    this is the only thing that matters to these abusive people; ME AND MY
    MONEY.
    
    No agreement with the towns/cities would be needed. Personnel could
    easily implement this policy. Other corporations (Raytheon) fire
    employees after 3 tickets (so I've heard).
    
    I agree with many of the noters that MASS drivers are the worst most
    inconsiderate, self centered group on the planet. And to take that a
    step further; It seems when I witness the most dangerous of stunts and
    buffoonery on the highway, I end up following those same fools into
    Digital parking lots where they and I work. 
    
    TJB

Before you get involved with all these law-and-order excesses -- has
the simple approach been tried?   You get someone (a security guy, maybe)
to say, in person, to the offender:

	"Excuse me, but we noticed you were parked in a DCU user's
	 parking spot.  Perhaps you don't know that you're not supposed to do
	 that--it's not fair to those people who have to come here from
         other sites to use the DCU.  I'm sure you won't do it again."

My take on this is that people do it because they don't really
think about it (that's generally my reason for acting like
a jerk, anyway).   If you tell them, without heaviness, that
this is not appreciated, then I suspect you'll cut down the
offence rate drastically.

    When I worked at Sanders, the rule was simple.  Each ticket went to
    your supervisor.  The third ticket put you on a formal warning; the
    fourth ticket was grounds for termination.  The termination process was
    taken out of the supervisor's hands and done by personnel.  I had one
    employee who was terminated this way.  He had NO other problems in his
    file, just parking violations.  His only response when I confronted him
    with tickets #1-#3 was indifference. His indifference was terminal.
    
    Perhaps this could help reduce our excess of uncaring employees.
    
    FWIW

    Strange to say I saw the problem this very morning. I had to go to a
    Government office and as they don't even open till 10:00 I decided to
    nip out and do some shopping. 

    At the top of our street there is a handicapped parking space reserved
    for one of our neighbours and I know that she uses it all through the
    day. Parking is very tight round our place. On my way out I saw someone
    parking on it. Another neighbour pointed out that it was a reserved
    space and was used regularly. He got a mouthful of abuse for his
    trouble.

    The shop was fairly empty and it was only a short while before I was
    passing the same spot going home. Our excellent towing service was just
    disappearing off down the street with the offending car behind it.

    It will cost this lad $150 to get it back, provided he does it within
    24 hours. The parking fee for the car pound is $50 a day. To add to his
    troubles he will have to take a taxi or face a long walk as you cannot
    reach it by public transport. 

    We have a fleet of these trucks cruising the city looking for illegally
    parked cars. But I think that the neighbour who had taken the abuse
    lifted his phone and made a call.

    Jamie.                       

 - Cars that are parked in violation of safety regulations (blocking a 
   fire lane or driveway) should be towed.  No ticket is required,
   just get 'em out of there.  Doesn't every state have a "violators
   may be towed at owner's expense" law?

 - Cars that are inappropriately parked (in a 15 minute space, for example)
   should be noted, and polite contact with the owner/driver should be
   initiated, as noted a reply or two back.

 - Institutionalized vandalism, as putting the 1/2-hour-to-remove
   sticker on the window, is NOT appropriate.  (Among other things,
   it ties up the parking spot for an extra 1/2 hour, or submits the 
   rest of us to the danger of the oaf driving with it still in place.)

 - Is parking in a reserved handicapped space a safety violation
   or just inappropriate?  A fine point, I think.  Keep track of 
   offenders and tow repeaters.

 - Inadequate parking is a touchy point, as some urban employers
   are prevented by law from providing enough parking for all employees.
   "Urban" in some areas extends to the beltway highways 10 or 20 miles
   beyond the center city.  Even in Massachusetts, there are (proposed?)
   Federal regulations that apply as far out as 495.

And please, not all @$$#*!%$ are from Massachusetts (and they don't even
all work for DEC).

- tom]

In most places, parking in a handicapped space without handicapped plates
is illegal *even in private parking lots*.  The municipality is allowed
to ticket and/or tow the offending vehicle.

    re: .12
    
    I know exactly who you mean! I've seen that contractor squeeze into 
    a space so tight that she must have dented the car beside her when she
    tried to get out of hers! She wastes so much time and energy; she could 
    walk back and forth to the building four times while she looks for a
    "close space". 
    
    

    People have been parking where they shouldn't ever since the beginning
    of time. I'm sure that earlier in history, people used to tie horses
    where the shouldn't. I see no reason to give these people the benefit
    of doubt by assuming that they did not realize that they are in a
    restricted area. I think that they all realize what they are doing and
    just place their own convenience or importance above the law (or rule).
    
    All Digital provided parking should be by permit (You know, the little
    numbered stickers.) One of the basic requirements to obtain a permit
    should be a signed agreement that states that the employee is permitted
    to park in designated parking only. It should also state that the
    employee authorizes Digital to have the vehicle towed at the employee's
    expense if it is found parked in restricted space. This way everyone
    gets forwarned.
     
    Then begin enforcing it 100%! No warning notes! No "give 'em a little 
    time." Arrange with a towing service and let the towing service worry 
    about insurance, etc. but they keep the proceeds.
    
    Bet the problem goes away real fast.             

    ALL INFO BELOW FROM RADIO INTERVIEW I HEARD. 
    
    I heard the Chief of Police from Marlboro Mass. on the RADIO
    last week. The subject started as Handicap parking and moved on 
    from there. The bottom line from the Chief was that it is against 
    the law in "Mass." to park in Handicap spots without the proper
    plates BUT private property is specifically exempted by the LAW.
    This holds true for vagrancy laws also. Those little signs that
    you see all over.... " No loitering, POLICE TAKE NOTICE ".....
    Those are "wrong" also. There is absolutly nothing the police can
    LEGALLY do.
    
    HOWEVER....If the property or parking space is LEASED to the city
    then The police can ticket offending cars. Marlboro has a small number
    of shopping centers that lease their Handicap parking spots to the city
    for a VERY VERY SMALL nominal amount. This gives the police ticketing
    powers over just those spots.

>>Before you get involved with all these law-and-order excesses -- has
>>the simple approach been tried?   You get someone (a security guy, maybe)
>>to say, in person, to the offender:

>>	"Excuse me, but we noticed you were parked in a DCU user's
>>	 parking spot.  Perhaps you don't know that you're not supposed to do
>>	 that--it's not fair to those people who have to come here from
>>        other sites to use the DCU.  I'm sure you won't do it again."


It has been tried before. I confronted one woman who was _always_ parking in
handicap spaces and parking in fire-zones.

I very calmy asked her to please move her car since it was not a legal spot and
it encouraged others to park their too.

She went absolutely balistic!! Called me every name in the book and said that
we (security) were good for nothing but harrassing people who are in a hurry
to get to work. She carried on and on screaming at me until I got my supervisor
to come outside. And after all that, she never even apologised for being a
royal F-ing B!

And another instance had a guy tell me that he didn't care what I thought. He
was parking there whether I liked it or not.

Uggghhhh!!! I am so glad I don't have to deal with jerks like this on a regular
basis anymore.


Scott

    I agree....the three-times-and-you're-fired approach is best.  That's
    the way it was when I worked for Aerojet in CA....and there simply was
    no problem.  Biggest problem is that  DEC has an unusually high
    percentage of spoiled brats.

>            <<< Note 1676.15 by ICS::CROUCH "Jim Crouch 223-1372" >>>

    
>    We know there are people like this from all states. 
And other countries too. 
Although we don't have the DCU in the UK, people still abuse parking
spaces and some people frequently park in spaces for the disabled
without displaying a "disabled" sticker.

Here in REO we're about to run out of parking spaces when more people
move into the building. No doubt parking in disabled spaces will become
more attractive. I heard Digital is considering paying people to cycle 
to work to reduce the parking problem.

Craig

    People park occsionally in the motorbike slots outside my door. Oddly,
    these cars seem to get blcoked in. How sad.
    
    If I was a handicapped person, I guess I'd just park across the bows
    the offenders. Of course you have to be sure, but....
    
    	- andy

In Michigan, parking in spots marked as "handicap only" CAN be ticketed by
the local police even if private property.  This has lead some of the cities
and towns to make an interesting solution to the problem.  They have a
police car marked as Handicap Patrol and manned by volunteers.  They go
around to shopping malls, factories, offices, etc. and ticket any violators.
Since this started, I have not seen anyone in the handicap spots at our
location without a sticker.  Having volunteers do the patrols frees up the
rest of the force to do more important work.

Lee G.

	Back to the parking at LKG..or lack of..
	I also, have seen the whole line filled and went in to ask 
	where all the people were?? The girl at DCU said, "Oh, it's
	raining and they park there so they won't get wet!".  But,
	this morning it wasn't raining. 
	
	The part the really gets to me at LKG is there is 8 or 10 places
	marked handicapped parking right next to the space they have allowed
	for DCU users, which is always empty, with the exception of one or two
	at the most.

	ANyway, thanks for the note, 

	8-|

	Meredith

    Is it illegal for Digital to use the old "Denver Boot" approach?  I
    haven't seen any of these in a while, so perhaps they've been found to
    cause cancer in rats or something ;-), but it seems to me if someone is
    a chronic pain in the tail about reserved parking, just slap on the old
    boot on a handy axle, and charge the owner rent.  $25 a day sounds
    good.  Don't know about the general population, but it would definitely
    give me pause for thought before parking in a handicapped space.
    
    Just a thought.
    

>    Is it illegal for Digital to use the old "Denver Boot" approach?  I
>    haven't seen any of these in a while, so perhaps they've been found to
>    cause cancer in rats or something ;-)

Only illegally parked rats.  I see lots of them in Boston.

    This has nothing to do with Digital parking lots, but where I live I am
    assigned 2 parking spaces.  Our condo policy is towing if an
    "unauthorized vehicle" is parked in one of the owner/tenants spot. 
    When one so-called guest was towed this person
    took the condo association to court and we lost, even though we had 
    properly ticketed the car first with a warning.
    
    So, if you all get this problem figured out, please post it here.  You
    might be helping others too!  :-)
    
    Karen-who-is-always-fighting-the-rude-guests-of-her-rude-neighbors-for-her-
    parking-space

    A few years back I was disabled for a while and was given a disabled
    parking permit. As at that time walking any distance was an effort I
    found the disabled parking spaces just about the only way that I could
    get to some places.

    I had an operation which, while not returning me to full health, did
    leave me mobile. After my rehabilitation walking was not really a
    problem so I returned the permit. I thought of it as one of the useful
    things that I had needed while I was sick like, walking aids,
    ventilators and IV drips, but now no longer needed thus it, or the
    spaces that it gave access to, could be used by someone who had a real
    need.

    You would really be amazed how many of my friends thought that I was
    mad to return it. Several times I have noticed people park in a
    disabled zone, with a permit on display, then jump out of the car and
    trot off. These types are in my opinion lower than the ones who just
    occasionally park on the disabled slots.

    Jamie.
                                            

    re.21 and several:
    Perhaps making offenders "compliant" with the requirements for
    "beeing handicapped" is the solution..... ;-)
     
    

re: .37

>    Perhaps making offenders "compliant" with the requirements for
>    "beeing handicapped" is the solution..... ;-)

They already are.  You just can't see a mental handicap.

Bob

re: .36

>    mad to return it. Several times I have noticed people park in a
>    disabled zone, with a permit on display, then jump out of the car and
>    trot off. These types are in my opinion lower than the ones who just
>    occasionally park on the disabled slots.

I used to think that too.  However, I have a friend who is retired on a
disability and has the handicapped license plates.  His condition is such that
he can't do a whole lot of walking, etc without needing to sit and rest.
He will get out of his van walking like everyone else, but by the time he has
walked through all the aisles of the supermarket, he can't push the grocery
cart out to his van.

On the other hand, he doesn't use the handicapped spots when he goes out to
a restaurant because the time spent sitting in the restaurant will allow him
to get back to the van in good shape.

So, just because someone doesn't exhibit any outward sign of a handicap, it
doesn't mean it isn't there.

Bob

    Just the other side of the coin. I have asthma and during my divorce it
    became very bad. I had sudden atacks, and could not breath. I did
    have two attacks in the parking lot at MKO. DEC then gave me a permit
    which I used - maybe five times in many moons. I came to work so early
    in the morning, usually 7:30am, that I did not have to worry about a
    parking space. I always got one. I felt silly when I used the
    Handicapped Parking Space.
    But just to tell the name callers, there are other health reasons that
    do entitle you to a permit, Maybe? You don't have to have a broken leg
    or limp to have a serious problem. I once chauffeured an old lady to
    the Hospital. Since she could not walk well, and I needed to support
    her, I parked my car in a handicapped parking space. I did not close 
    the car, it was obvious that I was coming right back out. In the meantime 
    another man started insulting me, because I did not park in a normal space. 
    I intended to come right back out and drive off again, since the Lady
    was going to call me again, when she was finished. So the whole time I
    was parked werde five minutes. You can make your own judgement.
    
    To all the noters that think just Mass people are rude, sweep before
    your own doors first. I did'nt make the best experience living there.
    I would really love to hear that people could learn to get along with
    each other and let each other live rather than insult each other in a
    notes file.
    

    RE: .38  by SCAACT::AINSLEY 
    
>>    Perhaps making offenders "compliant" with the requirements for
>>    "beeing handicapped" is the solution..... ;-)

>They already are.  You just can't see a mental handicap.
    
    People who suffer from Consideration Deficit Disorder have a moral
    handicap rather than a mental one.
    

>    People who suffer from Consideration Deficit Disorder 
    
	Alot of people who have to use CDD think it is a handicap
    	on their systems.
    
    	CDD+ is even worse for them.
    
    	Wait until CDD 5.0 comes out!

    Perhaps I should enlarge on my comment on non handicapped people using
    handicapped permits and spaces. I saw the most blatant demonstration of
    this when in training in England. There was a multi-story carpark and,
    as it was on a hill, you entered in the middle. If you parked on this
    level you had to go up or down to reach the street. Lifts were provided
    but were rather slow.

    I used to arrive early every morning and park next to one of the
    handicapped slots. About the same time a perfectly healthy guy used to
    park a car, with a permit, on the disabled slot then take the stairs
    two at a time up to the street level.

    I must also point out that parking on the handicapped slot with a
    permit was free, the rest of us had to pay.

    Jamie.
                                         

The situation lends itself to abuse precisely because the car is being
labeled as handicapped when it is a person who may be either the usual
driver or usual passenger who is really the handicapped one.  Yesterday it
was reported here that a person in a wheel chair was given a ticket because
their plaque with the international symbol was not fastened permanently to
the car.  The person was traveling and used the "portable plaque" to
identify her rented vehicle as bearing a handicapped person.  No dice!  Our
defenders of law and order gave her a ticket.  According to Puerto Rico law,
it is the car that is authorized to park there, not the person.

So, you can find cases where a non-handicapped driver has a handicapped
passenger occasionally and is give a plaque.  That is a license to park in
the handicapped zone even when the passenger is not along for the ride.

Thank you, American Bar Association, for another illustration of the native
intelligence of our legal eagles.

Dick

    In a lame defense of the guy who parked in a handicap  spot and was
    merrilly going up the stairs two at a time,let me say that not only
    wheel-chair bound people can get a permit. That guy may have had a
    heart disorder and was feeling particularly good that day. (of course
    he probably collapsed five minutes later) 
    
    BTW: In this town ,(C-Springs) I saw about ten times more enforcement
    of the handicap parking laws in my first two months than in all the
    seventeen years I lived in Ca. In Ca. (as in a lot of other places) a
    handicap spot is just another parking place.
    
    Ken

    I can assure you from personal experience, that people who have heart
    disorders bad enough to have a disabled parking permit do not have days
    when they they are good enough to go upstairs two at a time. In any
    event I saw him several times during that course and subsequent ones,
    each day he bounded up the stairs.

    His car was there the entire working day blocking the space that should
    have been available for genuinely disabled shoppers.

    Jamie.

  
  > His car was there the entire working day blocking the space that should
  > have been available for genuinely disabled shoppers.
  
  Well if it had mysteriously acquired four flat tyres at the end of the
  day it might have given him a bit more of the exercise he so desperately
  needed ... 
  
  Frank

    Especially if you'd *removed* the valves instead of simply holding the
    little plunger in until the tyres went flat.....
    
    Laurie.

    Why not simply call the police and report it ? If you call three or
    four times, they'll do something just to get rid of a thorn in their
    side.
    
    

>    In a lame defense of the guy who parked in a handicap  spot and was
>    merrilly going up the stairs two at a time,let me say that not only
>    wheel-chair bound people can get a permit. That guy may have had a
>    heart disorder and was feeling particularly good that day. 

Or he may have had a prosthetic leg or MS in remission or any of a number of
other non-obvious or variable conditions.
Yes, the handicapped parking rules are farcical and need overhaul,
but I'm continually amazed at the righteous indignation people can put on
when they think somebody ELSE is taking advantage of the system.
(And people do, and they deserve abuse, but one thing becomes clear:
you can't always identify them by sight or single violation.)

...besides, destructive vandalism doesn't work except get you in trouble...

...what if they had to rush to the hospital and all their tires were flat?

I like the idea of printing up stickers that say, "Attention!  I'm parking
illegally in a handicap spot!  I'm being inconsiderate! Please tow me away!".
:-)  That'll give them the appropriate message...:^)  If you're wrong about
them, they can't sic the police after you.

There's a guy here in this building who has only the use of his right arm.
He parks in the furthest lot from the employees' entrance...further than
the able-bodied woman who likes to park in more than one parking slot...:-(

B.

    I am not a vandal so I will not harm his car. As he is legally parked,
    he has the permit in his windscreen, the police would not be
    interested.

    I doubt if he had a prosthetic leg, if he could run with ease despite
    his leg, then  he could walk from another parking bay. If he was MS in
    remission he was in one heck of a remission to get from the level
    required for the handicapped sticker to fully ambulant, though I admit
    that it is just possible. Let's face it he was as healthy as the next
    man but had managed to get possession of a handicapped permit and was
    abusing it.

    Jamie.

    re:-1
    
    Yes,non-handicaps can get permits. When I was in San Jose Ca. you could
    buy a placard rather easily at the flea market. Some were stolen aand
    others were counterfeit.
    
    Ken

    There is a situation where a car without handicap license plates or a
    special permit might legitimately be parked in a handicapped spot. I
    sprained my ankle once and was in a splint and on crutches for several
    weeks.  I used a handicapped spot, feeling guilty, but I really
    couldn't get in from the regular lot.  I don't recall whether I had a
    note from the company nurse or not.
    
    On the other end of the spectrum, I'm outraged that anyone would
    purchase a conterfeit placard just to park in a handicapped spot.

Re:  <<< Note 1676.55 by TNPUBS::JONG "Steve Jong/T and N Publications" >>>

>    There is a situation where a car without handicap license plates or a
>    special permit might legitimately be parked in a handicapped spot. I
>    sprained my ankle once and was in a splint and on crutches for several
>    weeks.  I used a handicapped spot, feeling guilty, but I really
>    couldn't get in from the regular lot.  I don't recall whether I had a
>    note from the company nurse or not.
    
None of that would save you from getting a ticket in Colorado.  I don't know 
about other states, but parking there is only "legitimate" if you have a 
proper state-issued permit.  Period.

Here, Digital has "medical" parking spots available for use by people with 
temporary disabilities who have a Digital-issued permit from the nurse, but
that doesn't carry any weight as far as the use of handicapped spots go. 

-  David

    One of the DJ's on WBZ recommended a placard that said, "Ignorance is a
    handicap, but it doesn't entitle you to park here."
    
    Actually, this handicap parking bit is way over done. Our building has
    a handicap space that hasn't been used by a handicapped person in the 4
    years that I've worked here. I took a service call at a hospital this
    morning that had literally no empty spaces. I had to park a mile away
    in overflow parking and take a shuttle. There were about 2 dozen empty
    handicapped spaces, though. I'll bet even on Friday afternoon there
    will be empty spaces at the busiest supermarkets. The fact is
    handicapped people don't go out much.
    	There was a time when most people left the spaces closest to the
    door for older people, the handicapped, or for those who were just
    rushed. If enough people are inconsiderate that kind of system breaks
    down and has to be replace by legislation. Now we have a system where
    we treat our handicapped better than we treat our heroes.
    	
    johN

    Hey John,let me tell you a few things: First of all,most states have
    laws concerning new building construction and number of handicap
    spaces. (spaces are determined by building occupancy) Certain buildings
    ( like hospitals) are exempt from the laws,meaning that no matter how
    old the hospital is,it has to have a certain number of handicap
    spaces. Secondly,if a US "hero" has a handicap,he/she can use such
    parking to his/her heart's content. (in fact,I'll stumble and bumble
    from the furthest parking space just so he/she can park  in that spot)
    But,if that US "hero" has no handicap, that person can and should use
    regular parking.
    
    Ken

NH police will ticket any car parked in a handicapped space at Digital
(or any other private or public handicapped space in NH) which does not
have an official handicapped plate.

The "note from the nurse" allows you to use the "Digital Medical Permit"
spaces further away.

/john

    FLAME ALERT...
    
    
    Please, anyone who doubts the need for handicapped parking because most
    of those folks "stay home during the day anyway"  (or something like
    that...) Just spend a day in a chair and realize how demeaning and
    limiting it is! And you NEVER know when it could happen to YOU--
    My husband had an accident at work and wound up in one for, luckily,
    only 6 weeks, but was still impared for a couple months afterward.
    He never went out except for Dr. visits just because of the stigma of 
    that thing. At least with handicapped access and parking, folks in
    chairs have the chance to go places and be part of the world instead of
    being trapped in the home.  It's a chance to try and normalize their
    life.I would be willing to bet that more people in chairs would go out and
    use those "empty spaces" but for certain attitudes and difficulties.  

    The same goes for other physical limitations that need a little help
    and understanding for the rest of us that are healthy and mobile.
    
    Sorry, but when you've been close to this, your attitude gets
    adjusted......

In my 14+ years with the company I once received a ticket at MKO. As a matter of
fact, I still have it - right here.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

  [DEC Logo]				No. 10016
       MOTOR VEHICLE VIOLATION NOTICE

  Date: 8-6-87			Location:
  Time: 15:40				Lot 11

  Reg.		State:		Make Vehicle:
  No.  75104       NH			Chev

  Owner:			Cost Center:
      (blank)				(blank)

     ___    Parked in No Parking Area
     ___    Parked in Unauthorized Area
     ___    Obstructing Traffic
     _x_    Not Parked within Lines
     ___    Unsafe or Reckless Operation
     ___    Other Violation


  Illegal parking creates safety hazards and causes inconvenience
  to others. Your cooperation will help eliminate our parking
  problems.

  A copy of this notice will be sent to your supervisor.

  Security Guard: ____(Signature)______________

  EN-01000-11-REVB (630)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, I'll admit that it's possible I wasn't "parked within the lines",
although at that time, you couldn't see the darned lines because they
were so badly in need of repainting. The fact of the matter was that
when I parked the car, I was parked in between two other vehicles with
sufficient, but not extravagant space on both sides (18 to 24 inches).
Possibly they weren't within the lines either, which allowed enough room
for me. I don't know.

But had an employee of mine gotten a dozen of these tickets under similar
circumstances, I'd hardly see it as cause for termination.

Other problems with the system were that they had no means of identifying
me or sending the purported copy of the ticket to my supervisor.

I don't know how comfortable I'd be with a termination policy attached
to parking tickets. Some sort of fine might make sense, especially if it
were earmarked for the Employee Activities Committee or some local
charity. Getting the authorities involved doesn't sound right to me.
I also haven't a clue as to how you enforce it internally, although
working through a supervisor may be fruitful for a rightful violation.

-Jack

    Why do people assume I'm ignorant of the laws about handicapped access?
    I was making the point that arbitrary laws about how many spaces to
    allow for the handicapped have very little to do with real needs. The
    fact is not everyone is equal. There are reasonable limits to what
    society has to do for people with limitations. Afterall, shall we make
    the Appalachian wheel chair accessable? Providing unused and
    unnecessary parking spaces isn't reasonable. Providing a handicapped
    space at my facility, where no space is more than a 100 feet from the
    door, the lot is perfectly level and no handicapped people work here or
    even visit makes no sense. If a handicapped person purchased a carry-in
    contract, we'd probably treat it as onsite basic out of back country
    curtesy.
    
             johN

re .61

I'm not sure what a DEC ticket has to do with this.

If you park in a handicap space, you shouldn't get a DEC ticket, you should
get a city ticket.  Or both.

    Another perspective from the "handicapped" point of view.  First, I
    have refused to have "certified" handicapped plates.  My reasoning has
    been that I don't like labels, i.e., won't wear obvious religious
    items.  Secondly, from my observations driving various regions, having
    attained the marvelous age of white haired status, you'd become a
    virtual living target on 495 if you added the distinctive "handicapped"
    plate.  
    
    From the earliest remembrances I was never encouraged to feel
    handicapped - and perhaps that is why I don't consider being labelled
    handicapped necessary public information .. I do park in handicapped
    spaces, including Digital parking lots - supermarkets - where I'm
    known.  My car has not been towed, my tires not slashed, my locks not
    glued.  Sorry society it is that would seek such vicious retaliation
    because their horizons are so limited.  There must be more important
    issues they could direct their energies towards.  

re: .63, John

> re .61
> I'm not sure what a DEC ticket has to do with this.

It has to do with a large part of the previous discussion which centered
around DEC Security ticketing, the authority or enforcement associated
therewith, the relationship to disciplinary actions, and what's done at
other companies.

-Jack

    A couple of comments
    
    I was at the Mall the other day, and parked a fair way out from the
    buildings. THe van beside be had a guy on crutches (Permanent type
    disability - polio or something - didn't ask) I looked down and could
    see 2 or 3 Handicapped spaces unoccupied. So I asked him. "He likes to
    get a bit of an exercise every once in a while, besides, those parking
    spaces are for those that have real problems."
    
    I was following someone down the freeway the other day, And this guys
    car, had those town fire brigade plates, a stickon flashing light on
    the roof, and handicapped plates. I thought there were physical
    requirements of being a fire fighter.
    
    There was a discussion about "computing technology for visually
    impaired" in this or another conference a while back. People were using
    terms like visually impaired, Optically disadvantaged etc etc etc. then
    along came an entry from a DEC employee was plainly and simply stated
    that he (or it might have been she) was blind. Fancy words don't change
    the nature of the problem..
    
    q
    
    

    Re .66
    
    The driver of the vehicle is not necessarily the handicapped person, so
    it is perfectly reasonable to have handicapped plates on a volunteer
    fireman's vehicle. The handicapped person could be his wife, mother, or
    child. 

    The "challenged" person in the car (if that were s/he) could have been 
    the radio dispatcher or other less physical (but non the less important) 
    job around the station house.
    
    WHY does everyone use the work "handicapped"? Everyone in this world is
    handicapped for one reason or another, physically or mentally.!!!!!!!!!
    

re: 1676.67                  Inconsiderate  ....'s                     67 of 67
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                 -< the driver doesn't have to be handicapped >-
>    Re .66
>    The driver of the vehicle is not necessarily the handicapped person, so
>    it is perfectly reasonable to have handicapped plates on a volunteer
>    fireman's vehicle. The handicapped person could be his wife, mother, or
>    child. 

Exactly ... which is why it common to see a very healthy bruiser clambering
out of a four wheel something or ever and stroll into the store or whatever 

It is the OWNER of the car who gets the HC plate ... Several years back
while recuperatng from knee surgery, and being on crutches for  a few weeks,
i saw the ignomoty of people who were "obviously" not handicapped taking 
advantage that these special plates afforded them, and myself having to walk
hobble quite distance on crutches.

The problem isn't with the HC plate, its the way they are assigned. In an 
effort to curb abuses, other abuses occur. No system is perfect, especially
if it involves Governement or Politicians ... ;^)

Bob

    I was amused by the reply a few back where someone had to walk a good
    distance to park when there were empty handicapped parking spaces right
    outside the building. 

    Are we to assume that if these spaces were not reserved for handicapped
    people they would still be empty? Or would the distance that had to be
    walked be much about the same?

    Jamie.

re .68:

>    WHY does everyone use the work "handicapped"? Everyone in this world is
>    handicapped for one reason or another, physically or mentally.!!!!!!!!!

"Handicapped" is a euphemism for "crippled."  "Physically challenged" is
a euphemism for "handicapped."  Certain terms breed euphemisms.  For example,
can you think of a commonly used English non-euphemism for "toilet" (itself
a eupehemism)?

   But why do people want us to use euphemisms?  

   Because they can pretend that life is other than it is.

fwiw,

Dick

re: The last comment in .66
    
>    There was a discussion about "computing technology for visually
>    impaired" in this or another conference a while back. People were using
>    terms like visually impaired, Optically disadvantaged etc etc etc. then
>    along came an entry from a DEC employee was plainly and simply stated
>    that he (or it might have been she) was blind. Fancy words don't change
>    the nature of the problem..
    
While it's true that euphemisms don't change a condition, the distinction in
terms is not necessarily semantical. For instance, my father is, simply and
accurately stated, "visually impaired." He has a problem with his central
vision, but has peripheral vision. So he can see. He is not blind. He just
can't see as well as I can. So comparatively, his vision is impaired. It's not
a question of description, but of degree.

Which doesn't change what I perceive as the central issue of this note; which
is (or should be) that handicapped persons, regardless of what they are called
or what type of impairment they have, are entitled to extra consideration
(that's consideration, not condescension) from  those of us who are fortunate
enough not to have any such impairments. I enjoyed the first comment in .66;
the anecdote about the person who said that handicapped spaces are for people
with real problems. 


Jim   

	>> But why do people want us to use euphemisms?  
	>> Because they can pretend that life is other than it is.
    
    That's part of the answer.  Another part is that they permit mention of
    subjects that otherwise couldn't be discussed at all.  So the "real"
    question is, "Why are there unmentionable subjects?"

    I think euphemisms are used to create confusion.  Confused people are
    often easier to control.
    
    Steve

Re .<<< Note 1676.75 by MIZZOU::SHERMAN "ECADSR::Sherman DTN 223-3326" >>>

>    I think euphemisms are used to create confusion.  Confused people are
>    often easier to control.

I think that people who believe in the existance of conspiracies that use
euphemisms to create confusion are often easier to control.
				/AHM

    re: -.1
    
    Ever heard of "newspeak"?  Orwell (1984) or Bradbury (Farenheit 451 [sp?]) 
    might have argued strongly against your assertion.  The concept of
    creating a new term (often in propagand, typical use of euphemisms) in 
    order to control people is a pretty well-worn assertion.  It may be key
    to some of the reasons that many felt insulted by the now-infamous "Choices"
    brochure put out by the DCU BoD last August.  Seems folks didn't like
    the new fees and restrictions to be glossed over as "more choice". 
    But, the tactic was pretty typical of this type of manipulation. 
    In politics, they have a formal term for this type of tactic.  It's
    called "spin" (see "Hardball" by Christopher Matthews).  Even this is
    based on older concepts (see "The Prince" by Machiaveli [sp?]). 
    It's not conspiracy.  It's control of people.  It's "just business".
    
    Steve

Re .77:
    
>    ... The concept of
>    creating a new term (often in propagand, typical use of euphemisms) in 
>    order to control people is a pretty well-worn assertion.  It may be key
>    to some of the reasons that many felt insulted by the now-infamous "Choices"
>    brochure put out by the DCU BoD last August.  Seems folks didn't like
>    the new fees and restrictions to be glossed over as "more choice".

In some sense, the DCU BoD didn't really create a new term.  Anyone who thinks
so should re-read topic 565 in this conference, which contains plenty of
discussion of Digital's choice (excuse the expression) phrasing in the following:

.3>    Over the past several months, the U.S. Field Management Team has
.3>    studied the various tools used by our employees in the course of
.3>    Digital business activity.  The purpose of this study was to evaluate
.3>    and determine the appropriates tools which are, and will be required,
.3>    to satisfy our customer needs.  We also wanted to provide greater
				       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
.3>    flexibility to the employee and Digital in the selection and management
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
.3>    of those tools.  The company car plan was one of the tools evaluated.
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

(The memo then goes on to announce the cancellation of one of the 4 car plans,
which was considered a real boon to flexibility by all affected).
				/AHM

    Not a conspiracy, but certainly the same mind set.

    Wow, talk about "Inconsiderate ...", the last few notes have certainly
    steered this topic off a cliff.
    

    My only problem is when the bruiser in the car with handicapped plates
    parks in a handicap spot.  That is legal but slimy.

    
     You ever think that the reason the guy is a big brusier,is that he
    has to carry his wife and her wheel chair in and out of her work place.

    i have hc plates on my truck and car. i have an artificial leg from the
    services. alot of people look and stare at me when ever i get out of my
    car or truck and can not understand why i have hc plates. i even got
    questioned one day why i did not use the hc parking spot and i stated
    to them unless i feel i really need to i would if not i can walk. the
    other thing its against the law if you abuse it. what i mean is that if
    you have hc plates on which you have to pay extra for and park in a hc
    spot and the driver or anyone in the car is not hc you can get fined and
    the plates can be revoked. yes you can get hc plates for some one in
    your family that does not drive but it does not permit you to park in a
    hc spot unless that person is with you. what alot of people do not
    understand is that we have to pay extra for alot of things for excample
    is that we pay extra for the plates and if we need any special
    equipment we have to pay for it. i have a serious problem when ever i
    buy a car i really don't feel i have pay extra just because i need a
    automatic transmission instead of a standard if i was not hc i would
    buy a standard transmission.(flame off)

re .83

>...yes you can get hc plates for some one in
>   your family that does not drive but it does not permit you to park in a
>   hc spot unless that person is with you. ...

But clearly the law is not enforceable.  No policeman can tell whether the
occupants of the car with hc plates met the requirements when the car is
parked (empty) in the hc spot.  The problem is that the car is not
handicapped and should not be licensed.  The driver and/or passenger should
have the personal permit which can be placed visibly on the dashboard to
demonstrate the right to occupy the slot.  In my mind, we have problems
because the lawyers made the wrong law.

fwiw,

Dick

re .84:

Of course, that doesn't prevent the non-hc family member from borrowing the
hc permit in order to get a good space.