Conference 7.286::digital

    
    You forgot sponsoring a Senior Golf Tournament and all the volunteers
    
    who had enough "spare" time to devote to this event!
    
    BTW, I asked my mgr for a manual that I desperately needed for
    
    a project; he told me the company "could not afford it!"..I told
    
    hime it cost about the same as a golf ball. I got the manual!!
    

    I asked my secretary to book me a round trip flight on a last minute
    trip... I was in meetings all day with a customer and would not be able
    to get the 7 day advance purchase discount unless the flight was booked
    that day.... (this is the first time in a year I have asked a secretary
    to book a flight)
    
    Two days later she told me she did not make the arrangements because
    she does not do travel bookings for anyone in the group.  Her manager
    backed her up on this one!
    
    It cost the company an additional $340.
                     

    I have no doubt that the silliness goes on.....and on.  Someone told
    me about a recent case in CXO where the name change for a district
    was celebrated with balloons, feathers, posters, etc.  It is to cry.
    
    But hey, .2, at least you've got a secretary.  
    
    Smith has been raising hell about things like this lately, but I don't
    think anyone is really paying any attention.

    
    re: .2>
    
    [set/sarcasm/enabled]
    	
    		Maybe her belt was too tight?
    
    Perhaps, with all the concern over expenses and unnecessary travel,
    she felt obliged to "do the right thing" and "take a risk" and save
    the company some REAL bucks by *not* booking your flight; with the
    costs of hotel, car rental, et. al. in mind.
    She sounds like an empowered employee confidently asserting herself,
    fully sanctioned by her manager.
    
    What's your excuse?
    
    [set/sarcasm/disable]
    
    You're right. We all collectively lose, when we individually don't
    care.
    
    /Mike 
    
             

    re: .2
    
    in my group many have found they save the company money by
    by-passing corporate travel agencies and booking themselves...
    
    you get what YOU want, when YOU want and at less cost...
    
    

    by the way...
    
    If I NEVER had to rent another car, sit in an airport, or spend Sunday
    night in a hotel again... I would jump at the chance...
    
    I am looking for that chance with all the vigor I can muster (not a lot
    given the pace)..
    
    I did not want to attack my secretary, I like her, and use her
    infrequently (she supports a lot of people).
    
    I do expect, that as a responsible corporate citizen, when I raise the
    flag once or twice a year that I am swamped, and need someone else to
    chip in for me and save the company some money, that they will do the
    right thing...  (my manager should determine if I abuse the services
    of a secretary, and address it with me)
    
    If my manager and she had time to discuss this, then she probably had
    time to save us the money.
                                           

The belt's tight alright.  It is just that it isn't around the waist.  It isn't
even around the waste.  Its just laying waste.

BobW

    RE .6
    
    The very LEAST she might have done was to tell you when you asked
    her to book the flight that she wasn't going to do it rather than
    wait until you asked her...
    
    I've seen customer service engineers sit in the office all day because
    their company car is in the shop and they can't rent one...
    
    Today there was a telephone seminar at our facility (I'm so glad I
    didn't have to go) and everyone who went said it was an 8-hour waste of
    time!  I'm sure the facilitator (who flew in from another state) had
    good intentions and was doing her job, but gimme a break...8 hours on
    how to use the telephone?
    
    For the second year in a row one of our corporate account teams gave an
    appreciation picnic for one of our large customers.
    
    It just never ceases to amaze me...
    
    annie

        We've been in an expense crunch here for quite some time. Travel
        for us workers is out unless aproved by god. Yet managers run
        around the country, attending meetings that produce nothing,
        taking their secretaries and assistants with them.
        
        One of my favorite example is Post-its. We got rid of them a year
        ago. Now we use a whole sheet of paper for a small note, plus a
        piece of tape, staple, or clip. What do all of these extra
        supplies cost, compared to the post-its.
        
        We had those little post-it fax stickers to save a whole page of
        fax expenses. Those are gone, and the whole page cover sheets are
        back.
        
        Myself and another person in my now ex-group were denied company
        cars (or plan B equivalent) to save money. Yet others in the group
        who weren't on the plan got on the plan about the same time. We
        even have one technical writer / secretary who isn't supposed to
        have a car but does!

        Perhaps management should stop tightening our belts and tighten
        their neckties :-(

    Believe it or not, there is support for the contradictions we see and
    note during these times.
    
    I have in front of me a paper from Academy of Management Executive with
    the title "Best Practices in white-collar downsizing". The sub-title is
    "Managing contradictions". 
    One of the best-in-class strategies includes recommendations to
    overcome "survivors guilt" by demonstrating the optimistic future and
    "...regeneration phase...'launch lunches, renaming groups, logo's, new
    paint job at the work sites, bright colors..."
    
    I can't put the complete context here and to be fair I did select a few
    words and phrases from a 20 odd page report. But...one could make the
    case that we here (DEC) is just following the  "book" on how to
    effectively downsize....whatever EFFECTIVE means in this context.
    
    Cheers ! (And don't feel so guilty about all the illogical things 
    [you, we, they] do.)
      

    Harbor cruises to reward people are quite reasonable business expense
    for a 13 billion dollar corporation. The underlying problem, is that we
    have a whole bunch of people who don't understand how to take a
    corporate directive and act upon it in a reasonable and sensible
    manner.
    
    Cut back on Expenses means exercise some judgement, not can everything
    from Postits up.
    
    Improve the revenue/employee ratio doesn't necessarily mean reduce the
    number of employees, it can also increase the amount of revenue.
    
    Cut the work force, means trim those things that aren't cost-effective.
    Not slice into the workforce for the sake of slicing.
    
    q
    

    	Goodness!  CXO bought some balloons and feathers!  What did that
    	cost?!?!  Maybe $100?  You're talking about the group that was
    	*THE* MOST SUCCESSFUL ORGANIZATION IN DEC IN FY91!!!  (God, I 
    	wish I had saved that memo...)  We had cookies and donuts and
    	other goodies too...  Of course we all pitched in and brought
    	them in ourselves.
    
    	This year that same group earned the DECservice award. 
    	Traditionally the reward for that was a weekend at a ski resort
    	with all expenses paid.  Spouses included.  This year we are 
    	cutting fat and merely having a dinner.
    
    	A group that is *THE* must successful for the year deserves
    	something, don't you think?  Please don't deny us our balloons.
    	Just as I have no beef with some top performers getting a Boston
    	Harbor cruise, or some group getting a customer-appreciation
    	picnic with their high revenue-generating customer.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

	Re: Joe Oppelt's reply

	It's not the balloons !  It's the fact that there's a planning
	committee to buy the balloons, people making posters and putting
	them all over the darn building, and general time and money wasting.

	Also, this incredible DECservice award stuff is completely
	out of place in Digital, 1991.  Talk about fiddling while
	Rome burns !

	They're gonna spend something like ******* $225.00 ********
	per head for all this PLAYTIME stuff, when major products 
	are being cancelled, profitability plunges, and layoffs
	are going on.

	Now, what would happen if we spent this money on tools
	like WORKSTATIONS, so that we could actually understand
	what a customer was doing with one ?

	But, management told me that our contribution to Digital's
	hard times was "not to go away for the weekend."  (Waste less
	money.)

	Steve H

re: .2 - Do you and your secretary share the same boss?
You said her manager backed her up on this stand.  Is this the same
manager who would have approved your trip in the first place?

		The gatherings/outings I was referring to in .0 had nothing
	to do with commission rewards for `Top Sales', appreciation
	acknowledgment for `Top Performers' (i.e. above and beyond what was
	required.), `SURVIVORs'.  The to-dos that come to mind were put on
	for nothing more than succeeding as expected.
		Recently (~months) a dinner gathering, spouses included, was
	held at an elegant restaurant.  One of the people from the project,
	who was one of the heavy contributors, declined the offer because he
	saw it as ludicrous, seeing the state of the business.  He did not
	attend.
		These are not cases of misguided business dealings (e.g.
	"It's not my job to book flights so go do it yourself...").
	In my opinion, DEC has been, is being and will continue to be
	financially RAPED.

    re:  .14
    
    My manager does not "approve" my trips... now lets not have a raging
    debate about justifying travel.  Personnally, I am burnt out on it, and
    push back very hard on a lot of requests.  In many cases, the sales
    reps end up going back to my management to try and convince them that I
    should travel.... (the original memo was addressing a trip to Newark..
    it ain't Palm Springs folks!)
    
    Anyway, my manager wants his secretary to serve him 110% of the time,
    therefore, most of his staff does their own admin work.  I know this is
    true for a lot of groups.  I am not complaining about the day-to-day
    tasks I perform.
    
    My original comments were aimed at the issue of using professional
    staff to perform administrative tasks rather than secretaries.  I know
    secretaries are scarce, and frankly, I would welcome the old "pool" for
    non-managers.  I can't tell you how many times I have bumped into well
    paid consultants in the mail room, at the fax machine, in the copy
    center.  I know some people like to do these things themselves, and
    normally I do.
    
    When I am straight out busy, I would like the option to have a 
    resource back me up on administrative tasks.  I simply think it is
    more cost effective for the company, particularly when it means a
    savings in travel expenses.
    
    In general, secretaries are very good at "working the system".  There
    are a lot of business folks out here that are not as good, and end up
    spending too much time on something that a secretary could have done
    with her eyes closed.
    
    I suspect I have opened a pandora's box.....  let 'em rip!
    
    Paula
    

    My apologies to the original topic author... I seem to have gotten us
    off the subject.
    
    I've got one for you....  Does anyone know how much DEC spent on the
    Petrochem Kickoff?  Does anyone know how many of the attendees were
    then given the package?
    
    I understand the intent of the kickoff was to get things jump-started
    for the new fiscal year, but frankly, I think a lot of people were
    preoccupied and did not find a lot of benefit in a 4 day gala in
    Phoenix.

    
    	This is the first I've heard of "Petrochem".  Care to tell
    what/when/why/etc..?

    
    A couple of weekends ago I was in the White Mountain/North Conway
    area.
    
    On driving past the Mt Washington Hotel we noticed the sign at
    the entrance....
    
                     "welcome DIGITAL"
    
    
    Now for the uninformed, this hotel is not noted for its inexpensive/
    moderatetely priced accomodations.
    
    Who was there? Beats me!

    re: .16
    << (the original memo was addressing a trip to Newark..
    <<  it ain't Palm Springs folks!)
    
    Good thing for you! Since Palm Springs was about 110 degrees
    yesterday...
    
    &v)

    Re .12 .... beggin' your pardon, J, but how do you measure "success"?
    To the best of my knowledge the CSC generates very little if any
    revenue.  From a business standpoint, the run-away most successful
    group in the company is Software Product Services with NOR of over
    a billion for FY91, and 50%+ margins.  Now that's success!  Basically
    between SPS and our compatriots in HPS who also contributed boxcars
    full of real live green spending money, we kept the whole company
    afloat.  Oh, and we did it without balloons too {:^).

    RE: .19
    
    The New England North Customer Service organization was celebrating 
    its Fifteenth year Customer Service Awards.
    

    I hope the wrong people don't see this topic. If so I guess my
    15 year employee appreciation dinner is down the porcelin plumbing.
    I was really looking forward to the Cheyenne Country Club and the
    "High Cotton" atmosphere but what the hell, my wifes Strogonoff isn't
    exactally road kill. 
    
    			-Harold-
    

    Having come from an IC position (and a high paying one, to boot)
    outside of DEC to take a lowly secretarial slot 5 years ago at DEC just for
    the privilege (and I do mean privilege, having once worked for DG and
    other companies who were not so generous with the employees), and
    having been promoted to an IC position within DEC, I truly resent
    hearing gripes about secretarial support from IC's.  Even managers. 
    All of the managers I have had since I first came on board not only did
    their own travel arrangements, but they actually did their own typing,
    unless it was a major document, to save me (and them, in the long run)
    time to do more essential work.  Being a secretary does not mean being
    a slave to someone's inability to pick up the phone, call AMEX and in 5
    minutes, have flight arrangements made.  This is ridiculous.
    
    Most secretaries are dedicated to their managers for the reasons one of
    you stated previously, because if the IC's were left to their own
    devices without management "protection", the poor secretary would be
    run ragged.  This is not to say that all managers/IC's run secs. ragged
    and it is not to say all managers allow their secretaries to do less
    typing and more admin work, but you will find that most of DEC's
    secretaries now pull a very heavy load.  I don't think I have to sit
    here and spell out for everyone how each employee's roles and
    responsibilities have changed drastically and we are mostly working
    under full capacity -- this goes for secretaries too.
    
    As for tightening our belts.  I think this is a joke.  I work in Field
    Finance (and I'm not prone to speaking out in public forums against DEC
    since I'm so devoted to this company) but I'm truly appalled at some of
    the expense audits I have done recently and even by reading this
    conference, seeing that the Field (who works just as hard as Corporate,
    by the way) no longer gets X-mas parties or any type of kick offs and
    both Finance and Administration are no longer allowed to have employee
    awards programs.  I don't hear many complaints from my organization (or
    from Admin) about this.  Don't start pointing fingers and say we are
    non-revenue generating.  That shouldn't make ANY difference.  Everyone
    should be working their tails off for DEC instead of complaining about
    incentive programs and the lack thereof, trying to stick it to DEC by
    expensing TUXES!!!!! for DEC100 (believe it) etc.  We should be working
    hard and accept praise from our managers and their managers instead of
    b*tching about not having plaques and dinners and the like. 
    Personally, all the awards I have gathered over the years are gathering
    dust in my parent's basement somewhere ... 
    
    The Field does not get Thanksgiving turkeys.  We do not get Canobie
    Lake tickets.  We do not get anything other than holidays off ...
    So I truly resent (and cannot believe we are tightening our belts by
    giving New Englanders (yes, I'm originally from MA) "perks", and then
    hear people complain about the food at Canobie, etc.  What a joke.
    
    If people stop trying ot bite the hand that feeds them, maybe we would
    not have to have layoffs.  If managers and IC's paid a little bit more
    attention to expenses and controlling them, and ensuring policy is
    adhered to, then perhaps TFSO5 will never happen.  But until the day
    that managers stop trying to buck the system (oh, it's only $250 for
    THE BEST GROUP AT DEC) ((we are *all* the best group at DEC)) and
    expensing stuff that goes against policy (remember, each $250 adds up
    to big bucks when you look at the BIG PICTURE).  If salesreps stop and
    realize that sending flowers to customers and taking them out to
    needless lunches and then expensing this stuff goes against DEC's
    credibility and contributes to our problem, then perhaps we might not
    go under or get taken over.
    
    I want to keep my job more than anything.  And I want, more than
    anything, to see DEC recover from this bad experience.  I believe in
    the product and Ken Olson's philosophies.  God only knows what he is
    thinking right now, seeing his dream go up in smoke slowly because he
    has no direct control over things anymore.  I truly sympathize with
    him, I'll bet if we can't sleep at night worrying about layoffs (and
    you can bet I haven't gotten a good night's sleep in about three or
    four months) Ken Olson is probably turning into an insomniac over this
    tragedy.
    
    I have a problem with the way the layoffs were handled, but I still
    love DEC and will be devoted to this company until the day I get my
    pink slip.
    
    Tammi Taylor
    Government Accounts Group
    Southern States Finance
    
    

    ...then why in the name of all that's good and holy doesn't Ken
    take the reins back?  Dave Packard did it in HP at age 75 when he
    "managers" were getting ready to do some of the same stupid things
    we are doing.
    
    I agree strongly on your support for secretaries.  Unfortunately,
    we still have people who treat them as personal body servants (get
    you own damned coffee!!)
    
    If I'm not mistaken, it hasn't been that long since it was absolutely
    mandated that ALL travel arrangements would be made through AMEX.  Now,
    clearly, people are doing an end run on the system again.  If we can't
    insert discipline in that little aspect of our business, how do we 
    every expect to survive.

    re .21: 
    
    Yeah, those lazy turkeys in CSC just sits and chat on the phone
    all day, never earning a penny for the compagny ;-)
    
    Get your head out of that sack, Sam. You should have more sense, than
    that!
    
    Except, who would buy DEC second time around if you couldn't some
    friendly and professional advise when you struggle getting the
    thing working in the first place.
    
    It is distressing to watch from this side of the pond, what is going
    into this conference lately. I know notes are *also* for "letting it
    out", but some of the regulars herein are well out of their minds!
    
    I'm sure KO is OK, he's been around long enough to be able to see what 
    is DEC troubles and what isn't; most of the panic in the world of today 
    is *not*! 
    
    A digital services worker

>    ...then why in the name of all that's good and holy doesn't Ken
>    take the reins back?  Dave Packard did it in HP at age 75 when he
>    "managers" were getting ready to do some of the same stupid things
>    we are doing.

    What makes you so sure that Ken doesn't have the reins firmly in hand?
    Still an other option, if you don't want to believe that KO approves
    of most of what is going on, is that there are just too many managers
    for KO to straighten out all of them. Or even most of them.

    			Alfred

I am going to celebrate my 19th year working for Digital on the 16th of
October. It is sad to see the bitching and moaning that I have seen by people
in this note file, on things that they do not know anything about. Re.24 -
I could not have said it any better. The people in Colorado are worth their
weight in gold to me. When I get in trouble out here in the field I call them
for help. They always come through. I am a former Massachusetts worker, that
wanted to help the company by getting into COD, and working in the field.

It has been a very rough transition.

This is all I have to say. This is my last note entered in this conference,
and last note read in this conference. This note conference, like others have
gone to the bottom of the pit. To put it bluntly.

Have fun by yourselves.

Out

    1) Secretaries are not slaves. The one wroking with my group doesn't
    get coffees for us or any of that crap. Nevertheless, she DOES sort out
    the travel arrangements of us, for which we're all grateful. If folks
    don't think secretaries should do this kind of stuff, then I suggest
    they don't take that job.  
    
    2) Service awards and similar are very important morale boosters. Dump
    them at *our* peril.
    
    3) CSC's make a profit. They are paid for by the HUGE service revenues
    (40% of corporate income) and they make a lot of money. As the person
    who asserted they didn't make money used to work for CSSE, I'm bloody
    surprised to read this assertion. No CSC's, no support contracts. No
    support contracts, NO CUSTOMERS.
    
    4) Let us not seek to condemn all and sundry for spending money. After
    all, taken to the extreme, the argument would seem to be that if
    Digital stopped all wages, we'd be making a damn good profit. 
    
    On the other hand, attack profligacy when and where it occurs.
    Sensibly. This means questioning expenditure, but from the standpoint
    of being prepared to hear a resonable explanation.
    
    	- andy

    
    I have it on good authority that DEC is renting a hotel in San Diego
    for two weeks. The hotel is probably the most expensive and lavish
    hotel I have ever seen in my life.
    
    /prc

    It's for the circle of excellence awards. I am not sure how lavish
    it is, at least it is for a good purpose.

re: .31

COE is in Palm Springs.  Now whether or not that is close to San Diego, I don't
know.

Bob

    The "Petrochem Kickoff" was an event held this summer for anyone in the
    field that sells, supports, consults, etc. within the Petrochemical
    Industries.  Approximately 700 people attended this 4 day event in
    Phoenix Arizona, where we were provided a grand selection of sessions
    targeted at selling into the various sub-markets....
    
    The problem with an event of this magnitude is that ever session is
    focused at the DEC Sales reps... so if you were attending as a
    consultant or sales support person, the content was a bit lacking...
    
    The expense of this event had to be incredible.  With airfare, hotels
    (single occuopancy), meals, "Olympic Event", and the down time in
    preparing for and attending the event, it seemed a poor time to hold
    such an event.  My understanding is that GSB and other IBU's held
    similar kickoffs.
    
    Some say the purpose was to get people pumped up and back on a selling
    track.  The presentations did little to excite, and many of the folks 
    that were recent victims of layoffs were at this event....
    
    Was it worth the expense during these tight times?  I say it was a very
    expensive networking party, and I would have benefited by a smaller,
    more focused event (and I'll pass on the Olympics... a huge expense
    from what I've heard).
    event

    Oh, God, not another p--ing contest.  You're correct, I absolutely
    have the strongest respect for the CSC's and the work they do....but
    PLEASE, they do not make one dime, period.  They are not a profit
    center...they constitute an expense to Digital.  If someone can send
    me a copy of their P&L, I'll be glad to change my position.
    
    My issue was that normally in a corporation "success" is a factor of
    how much an organization contributes to the profitability of the
    company.  The CSC is pretty expensive...251 bucks an hour....so in a
    true accounting sense, they are a drag on profits.

    
    
    	Any one have the numbers of persons from through-out GIA
    	that attended their (rumored) week-long (COE?) wing-ding 
    	in Hong Kong?
     
    

    
    Palm Springs is correct.

    .35 ..... the real question is: How many U.S. types suddenly felt a
    need to tour GIA, especially Hong Kong??

    	re .34  COOKIE::LENNARD
    
    	I do not know the way the accounting is handled, but the reality
    	is that customers pay very large sums of money to use the CSC
    	services, and those service contracts (for instance an RDB service
    	contract) gets them little more than what we provide them.  So
    	perhaps through some accounting practice some umbrella groups
    	gets to claim the "proifits".  Still, it is the CSC, in reality,
    	that EARNS the money.
    
    	P--sing contest indeed!  You're the one that unzipped the zipper.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    	re my original .12
    
    	I found out that SPS was that "most successful" organization.
    	Software Support contracts (what the CSCs "support") were a
    	major portion of SPS's profits.
    
    	So great.  We can split semantic hairs.  I still fee pretty damn
    	proud of what we (CSC) contribute to the bottom line for DEC.
    	Close down our business and see what it does to the bottom
    	line!
    
    	I guess we play the "housewife" role here.  We don't earn an
    	immediate paycheck, but take away what we do and the household
    	collapses.
    
    	I still say "Don't deny us our balloons!"  Heck, I give my wife
    	an "I love you" balloon and a kiss every now and then!  :^)  I
    	guess you owe me a kiss, Lennard!
    
    	Joe Oppelt

Perhaps Software Engineering should charge the CSCs for every bug and opaque
manual passage we ship - without us, you wouldn't be nearly as successful.
				/AHM

  
  Re .40 (Alan)
  
  Nah, the CSCs should charge Software Engineering for every bug and opaque
  manual passage you ship ... funny how that idea never really takes off ...
  
  (Seriously for a minute : at the moment, *the customer* is paying not
  only for the product itself but also for the lack of initial product quality
  in the case of some products [or for the quick efficient response in others].
  Whilst it is nice to get money into the Company, when it is at the cost of
  customer respect and goodwill, the trade-off isn't that favourable.)
  
  There again, we could just send the phone numbers of the engineering
  team to the customer and let them sort out their own "contracts" ...
  you crasha ma system, I crasha your face ... :-)
  
  Re .34 (Dick)
  
  > ... but PLEASE, [CSCs] do not make one dime, period. They are not a profit
  > center...they constitute an expense to Digital. 
  
  I don't know about the US CSCs but the UK CSCs are now accountable as revenue
  generators ("service centres" under the new scheme of things). [ Now if only
  they would do the same to the various "manager" positions who don't have any
  direct reports ... ]
  
  Frank

Re .41:

We may force the customer to pay for poor quality over the short term, but I
presume that Digital will pay over the long term.
				/AHM

I used to work in the CSC.  It was the hardest job I've ever had, and
forced me to know the products I supported better than the engineers
maintaining them knew them.  Seriously.  It was such a hard job that I
couldn't do it, and I therefore retired to the easier Software Engineering
world.

Imagine my surprise (or lack of it) when I see so many people in the SE
world continually trashing the CSC.  Even more surprising since my SE
management has NEVER asked me to get seriously concerned about quality, and
have quite often penalized me for doing so on my own initiative.

Software engineering creates the problems, and the CSC fixes them.  That's
the simplest way that I can put the relationship.  Naturally we find
members of the SE community trashing the CSC, because the CSC is finding
(and often fixing) faults in the SE's work.  Speaking as someone who has
recently taken "ownership" of a product that has been neglected by
engineering for a couple of years, I am thankful for the CSC who not only
offer a front line of support on this product, but who (on a daily basis)
help me do my job by diagnosing and often fixing problems for me.  Believe
me, with the neglect that the product in question has received, there's
plenty of work for all of us.

With that, I have no problems rewarding people in the CSC for their hard
work.  If we were to remove the reward system, morale would drop (probably
to match the rest of the company), and the quality of the work done there
would probably soon follow.  There's an obvious relationship between that
and revenues.  Seems to me like a small price to pay to keep the revenues
up.

    
    	Anyone that does telephone support for a living deserves
    	extra milk & cookies!  Individually, they are subjected
    	to a much higher performance standard and throughput 
    	expectation than the rest of us.
     
    

    Concerning "added value" of CSCs.....don't just look at the SW side
    of the picture.
    
    When we first opened shop here in Atlanta, we supported hardware
    primarily.  Field Service was more than happy to fund us because
    it was sure a lot easier to have a customer call the CSC and find
    out the problem was in fact a "user" problem.....or the darn system
    wasn't even plugged in <----- workers in CSCs have heard this one
    many times; imagine sending a FS person out in a DEC vehicle, only
    to find someone at the customer's site had accidentally unplugged
    the system!!  A few calls like these diminishes any $$ returns on a FS
    maintenance agreement, not to mention the FS engineer's time being
    wasted....
    
    Just a thought.....if there were no CSCs......how much work do you
    think a SW consultant in a local branch office would be able to
    accomplish if that consultant was constantly inundated with calls
    from customers who hadn't bothered to RTFM?
    
    No one working in a CSC would question the fact that it takes big
    bucks to keep one functioning; but branch offices recognized years
    ago that without the CSCs, the local headcounts would have to be
    much higher.  $251 a call must surely be cheaper than dispatching
    a FS engineer or SW person every time one of their customers has
    a problem....I'm sure someone in the C.S. organization has the
    exact numbers, otherwise they would have pulled the plug on us
    long before TSFOs became necessary.
    
    
    Karen
    
    

    re .38.....Joe, Joe, Joe.....I'm not bad-mouthing the CSCs...please.
    You may not know it, but I'm one of the people who does the actual
    pricing for Layered Product Support, of which telephone support is
    a component, and an important one.  But telephone support is only
    a portion of what the customer buys for their money.  They also
    get access to DSIN, and The Right-to-New-Version.
    
    Boy, are people up tight these days!
    
    About the kiss........well, send me a picture {:^).

    	re .46
    
    	Care to take a guess at who writes and maintains the bulk of 
    	the DSIN articles available to the customers?
    
    	Joe Oppelt

	re .40:

>Perhaps Software Engineering should charge the CSCs for every bug and opaque
>manual passage we ship - without us, you wouldn't be nearly as successful.

	Nice going, Alan, this line of thought would take us (in time)
	to an appreciation of the ascendancy of Marketing over Technology
	close to that which IBM attained 20-30 years ago.

	It is amazing how often simple concepts like Quality, Cost,
	Performance, and Customer Satisfaction turn out to be far more
	complex and ramified than you could ever have guessed.

	When many of us first came across ALL-IN-1, we loathed it -
	very largely because we saw it as a poor piece of engineering
	which ran very slowly and did not use the underlying hardware
	(our wonderful VAXes) efficiently. My eyes were opened when
	I first understood that customer realized this, didn't care,
	and were happy (in some cases) to pay for 5 times as much VAX
	to get the functionality they wanted.

	IBM has used the same reasoning to continue selling its
	obsolete mainframe technology, which gives price/performance
	way below market levels for UNIX* or even VMS. Why? Because
	the customer buys *the whole package*.

	Just the same way that ALL-IN-1's sheer inefficiency turned
	out to be a great way to sell heavy VAXes, maybe a defect-ridden
	product is an asset to a support organization. For the short term.

	Of course, this is the crunch. Who trades off the various profits
	and losses to Digital as a whole? Easy - NOBODY. Because all the
	numbers are collected for different stovepipes. Long ago, when
	Field Service was founded, the idea was established that it would
	be a profit centre. This was in accord with the Digital philosophy -
	and still is. It's an entrepreneurial idea - service is a separate
	business.

	You could hardly get further from the IBM philosophy, which is

		"SERVICE ***IS*** THE BUSINESS"

	/Tom

    
    re: <<< Note 1630.21 by COOKIE::LENNARD "Rush Limbaugh, I Luv Ya Guy" >>>
    
    Dick,
    
    What does the Software Product Services group actually build or create
    itself?  50%+ margins are impressive unless they are solely in the 
    business of selling or administering the work of other groups.  In that 
    case, 50% seems a bit low, doesn't it?
    
    JP

    Wouldn't it be nice if we could get circuit boards and general support
    from our Internal Field Service instead of throwing $1,000 boards in
    the can and having to buy new ones from the stockroom?...I was told
    that this wasn't cost effective by Field Service Management...How much
    could a repair cost...after all, they will be happy to do it "If you
    have a contract"...what about the "heaven only knows how many" machines
    out there without contracts...If the local field reps tried to work on
    some of the DEC/Vendor combinations I have to support, they would be
    ready for a rubber room.
    
    	The way I see it, this company throws thousands into the crusher
    every day, and management not only accepts they idea, they endorse it.
    
    	Belt tightening....HA...tell me another one
    

    You'd be surprised to learn just how much it really costs to repair s
    single module inside Digital.
    
    1) You have to communicate with the representative of a facility that
    has the tools to diagnose and repair the module.
    
    2) You have to negotiate a mutually agreeable date and charge.
    
    3) You have to transport the module to the facility.
    
    4) They have to diagnose and repair the module.  If it is out of
    revision, it must be brought upto current standards, and that is at
    _your_expense_.
    
    5) They have to transport the repaired module back to you.
    
    6) They have to handle all of the financial acounting procedures
    associated with this transaction.
    
    As far as the diagnosis and repair, that can really be impossible with
    current resources.  Testers and software change with each revision of a
    product.  Equipment which is not currently in use may be un-installed
    and disposed of.  There may be no current documentation at the
    facility.  There may be no one with the appropriate training.
    
    When all of this is dollared out, it can indeed be cheaper to get a new
    one than to repair an old one.  My conservative nature doesn't like
    this fact, but I know it's true.
    
    Dick

    Dick;
    
    Also add the fact that there are a limited number of repair cycles that
    each module can endure before it's etch has been thermally stressed to
    the point of unreliability..
    
    /jim

    re: .51, .52
    
    	All of that may be true, but there is one thing you seem to be
    missing...the trashcan or an auction in no place to put a bad board
    which CAN be repaired...we are talking a computer troubleshoot here...
    if the board is not economical to repair, so be it.  I feel that if S/R
    17 would accept it and test it on thier machines, there is a strong
    possibility that the module could be repaired and put back into stock
    at a cost much cheaper than the cost to build a new one...as far as
    cost, F/S management has confirmed that the computers troubleshoot the
    board quickly and efficiently.  The only exception to this is the
    "intermittent problem".  If a board cannot be repaired by the third
    pass, it is scrapped...serial numbers tell the history.  I have been
    fighting this issue with the field service management for some time...
    the outside customers have this option...what F/S fails to see is that
    we, the internal people, are customers too and we have cost
    restrictions too...right now more than ever...this year, many of us are
    up against up to 40% or more in cost reduction...I would rather see that
    reduction take place in the form of efficiency rather than the
    workforce losses...no worker...no product...no Digital.
    
    	I would much rather pay to take the chance in the repair center
    than to just arbitrarily throw a board in the trash...how much could an
    estimate of repair costs cost me.  My suppliers outside do it for up to
    $150.00.  I would be willing to pay that internally and get the board
    repaired for up to 50% of a new board...and that is better than 100%
    EVERY time.   Multiply that times 50 boards per day at approximately 
    $1000 per board (replacement cost) in a repair facility and you are 
    looking at $25,000 a day in savings to the company.  All of a sudden...
    it isn't so little an amount anymore.  
    
    DLM

    Who says that anyone associated with sr 017 has the test equipment for
    some unspecified module?  General purpose diagnostic equipment like
    GR's or L2xx aren't all-purpose cure-alls.  To repair any arbitrary
    module, you may need as many as three specific pieces of equipment
    which takes up 200 square feet of floor space.  You also need to have
    at least one trained technician for each piece of equipment (could be
    the same person for a single product).
    
>            -< The services exist for the outside, why not inside? >-
    
    We do not repair modules for outside customers, as a rule.  We define a
    "Field Replaceable Unit" which is what the technician swaps out.  The
    customer is charged for a new unit.  The swapped unit may be scrapped
    or returned for repair/refurbish, but in no case can it be sold as a
    new unit, it is now used.  So we have to keep separate inventory, sell
    by separate channels, and be sure that the customer for a used
    refurbished product is getting fair value for his/her money.
    
    Dick

    Re .49 ..... SPS actually "builds or creates" individual service
    products and portfolios of services products specifically designed
    to meet customers needs.  It is a Product Creation Unit (PCU) in the
    purest sense of the world.  Do you have a problem with us making
    money?  You shouldn't have as DEC would truly be in deep doo-doo
    without SPS profits.
    
    When we design/build a service we then negotiate with organizations
    like the CSC's to deliver a component of that service.  They then
    become a subcontractor, so to speak.  Why can't you accept the fact
    that the CSC's are not a revenue generator??  SPS pays their expenses
    in return for certain services...it's that simple.

    RE .55
    
    	I have nothing against your organization making money.  I the
    business makes money for the company, I think thats great.  If it makes
    money at the expense of the company, thats bad.
    
    	All I want is a way to get my boards repaired.  That way everyone
    wins.  The facility doing the repairs gets more business and bills on a
    usage basis.  I don't have to insure a system for X amount of dollars.
    After all, it doesn't make sense to pay for an insurance policy for a
    system the corporation identifies as worth zip.  
    
    	I would be more than willing to pay for the services I use.  The
    problem is that there is nothing in place to do this.
    
    	I have the systems in place, I also have spares.  I need to use a
    spare to get a system running again, I therefore need to replenish my
    spares.  Not being able to repair a board is ludicrous.  
    
    	The next thing I expect to hear is that if a "NEW" board has a
    failure on the line, there isn't a rework procedure.
    
    	Payment for services rendered is a fair deal, why isn't it a
    reality?
    
    DLM

    
    Re: .55
    
    No, Dick, I have no problem with SPS making money.  I just think it is
    unseemly for a member of that organization to crow about 50%+ margins
    when most of what they do (according to you) is the administration or 
    brokerage of services from others DEC groups. I would feel the same way 
    if a sales rep implied that sales is somehow better than engineering or
    manufacturing because sales collects the money.
    
    So let's see if I have this right.  SPS pays the expenses of CSCs in 
    return for certain services.  SPS sells those CSC services to customers
    for real money.  CSCs do not generate revenue but SPS does.  Is that
    about it?
    
    JP
    

    	Maybe it's just an unnecessary middleman.  If we eliminate that
    	"service" the customer may be able to get their support contracts
    	for a lower price!
    
    	(Just playing devil's advocate.)
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    
    
    I've often thought of selling my phone number for $25 a pop 8-)
    
    want a second opinion, don't want to buy a contract? call me at home
    with your visa number ready 8-)
    
    just in jest
    
    simon

>    
>        The next thing I expect to hear is that if a "NEW" board has a
>    failure on the line, there isn't a rework procedure.
>    

	Not too far away from reality.  When I was working on Argonaut
	(sigh, long canceled), everyone was wondering what they were
	going to do with the inner-layer resistors (20 layer board?)
	if they were out of spec.  I think that they found that they
	could drill out to fix them one way (higher or lower resistance,
	I don't recall), but not the other.  The other thing that
	they were worried about was the surface mounted chips - how the
	heck do you remove them - remember these suckers are EXPOXIED
	on.  I don't know if they ever solved that problem.  Of course,
	the module test and rework people were busy at the time 	
	wondering what the heck to do with double-sided boards with
	active inner-layer components...

	Our technology to build is going ahead a *lot* faster than
	our technology to *rebuild*.

	Rick Beldin
	Atlanta CSC

    
    	The hardware groups at the CSC's do have a direct affect on DEC's
    	expenses.  As someone mentioned earlier, when a customer calls for
    	hardware service under contract, the CSC can save Digital around
    	$400 for this individual call if the problem can be resolved *by*
    	the CSC without the Field Service engineer making a trip to the
    	customer site.  Reducing expenses is a big priority for DEC, yes?
    
    	We have something like 85 customer support hardware engineers in the 
    	Colo Spgs CSC alone (not counting Atlanta and other CSC's) - and 
    	most engineers take an average of 40 - 100 calls per week (depending 
    	on their hours and specialties.)  It's fairly common to have several 
    	"no service required" callouts per engineer PER DAY - so just imagine 
    	what these $400 a pop savings mount up to in a given week among 85
    	engineers!!
    
    	It may not sound much like a "source of revenue," but the corporation
        has been aware of this for a long time (and has measured the CSC's
    	corporate "value" for this accordingly over the years.)

    re .61
    Hear, hear!
    
    Charles, who used to work in the Dutch CSC

>              <<< Note 1630.61 by GORE::CONLON "Dreams happen!!" >>>
>            -< One of many factors that make CSC's valuable to DEC: >-
     
>     	We have something like 85 customer support hardware engineers in the 
>     	Colo Spgs CSC alone (not counting Atlanta and other CSC's) - and 
>     	most engineers take an average of 40 - 100 calls per week (depending 
>     	on their hours and specialties.)  It's fairly common to have several 
>     	"no service required" callouts per engineer PER DAY - so just imagine 
>     	what these $400 a pop savings mount up to in a given week among 85
>     	engineers!!

Most of the HW engineers in Atlanta take from 40-60 calls a DAY, not a week.  I
think that the difference between Atlanta and CXO volume would be for crash
dump analysis.  Atlanta's crash dump analysis volume is only about 10-15% I
would guess.  

Cheers,

JK
 
              --==++    "CARPE DIEM - Sieze the Day!!"    ++==--                

    	40-60/day????  That averages out to 8-12 mins/call.  And that's
    	assuming you take calls for the full 8 hours without going to any
    	meetings, or to the bathroom, or whatever.  Give 3 minutes to
    	write up the call report, and you only spend 5-9 minutes per
    	call with the customer.  They've got to be alot of pretty basic
    	calls for that amount of time per call.
    
    	I can imagine that MAYBE call routing specialists (or whatever
    	they are called this month) might do that kind of volume, but
    	it would seem to me that you would OFTEN spend more than 5 minutes
    	with the customer just trying to find out what his problem is.
    
    	How many HW specialists are out there?  If you have only 10, that
    	would be upwards of 600 calls per day.  3000/week.  Do we even
    	have that many customers out there?  (He asked facetiously.)
    
    	Or maybe I just don't understand what you do there.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    
    re .63
    
    What "sweat shop" group do you work in?
    
    f.m.

    SPS is not just a a "middle-man"! I am an SPS Product Manager
    and currently am working with some folks at a US CSC to
    resolve several major product problems.  With the CSC's help,
    the price are set using a number of parameters.  The CSC is
    asked (by some, not all) to help determine what needs to be fixed
    that will have the most impact, make life easier; such as, if
    Section XXXXX in the documentation had more examples/was clearer/
    had more information/existed, there would be less phone calls.
    
    I won;t go into all the the things that SPS does, but as an SPS
    employee I find it offensive to keep readings notes "slamming"
    SPS.  I don't believe that the slamming is productive.
    
    Many of my peers work with the CSC to help make things better.