Conference 7.286::digital

    Digital is no longer in a mode where we are simply "order takers" for
    products that sold themselves. Messages are everywhere that explains
    the importance of an ACCOUNT STRATEGY that describes every aspect of
    that customer. From it, falls the appropriate business plan that should
    describe the anticipated business, strategy, and requested resources to
    return a respectable P for the investement. This is where the "funding"
    for sales comes from. So this explains why the Rep 2,000 miles away
    (maybe) is responsible perhaps. 
    
    I run into this often and try to simply get the customer's name/number
    and work to get the appropriate Rep to respond.Sure, this sale does
    nothing for you meeting your "numbers" but the model is to have this
    work conversly for you. Spend more time getting the ACCOUNT Team
    re-directed to the customer across the street rather than the details
    of what they need..

.1> Digital is no longer in a mode where we are simply "order takers" for
.1> products that sold themselves.

You're absolutely correct.  I'm tired of taking orders and if the customer
across the street walks over and gives me one I'll thank him and tell him
that it will be sent to another Digital office - we can't handle it.

.1> Messages are everywhere that explains the importance of an ACCOUNT
.1> STRATEGY that describes every aspect of that customer.

Correct.  It's important, strategically, that these customers not have a
local Digital sales representative to assist them.  It's important,
strategically, that this customer not call locally for Digital sales,
but, better to call an office 2,000 miles away (good for some long distance
phone service).  It's important, strategically, that quotes be sent
through the US Postal service, and, not hand carried to the customer.
It's important, strategically, that the customer see a Digital sales
representative perhaps once every three months - once a week or once a
month would be a strategic blunder.

.1> From it, falls the appropriate business plan that should
.1> describe the anticipated business, strategy, and requested resources to
.1> return a respectable P for the investement.

Correct.  It's much more economical to fly three or four people from
2000 miles away to service a customer which has Digital sales representatives
across the street.

If the customer has a situation which demands immediate attention - by golly
he'll just have to wait.  Just because a customer did not plan properly
certainly does not constitute an emergency on our part!  The *nerve* of
some customers is appalling!

.1> This is where the "funding"
.1> for sales comes from. So this explains why the Rep 2,000 miles away
.1> (maybe) is responsible perhaps. 
   
I can't wait to tell my customers that we're doing this in their best
interest, to serve them better, and to show them that we really value
their business.
 
.1> Sure, this sale does nothing for you meeting your "numbers"....

    It's going to do wonders for Digital's "numbers". Not to mention the
    fact that customer satisfaction will undoubtedly soar!

.1> Spend more time getting the ACCOUNT Team re-directed to the customer
.1> across the street rather than the details of what they need..

I'm not funded to be a part of the ACCOUNT team.  They're 2,000 miles away.
The "direction" of the account team and of the customer are of no consequence
to me.

What's wrong with this picture?

We've already had an instance of an account manager in Virginia calling
one of our distributors in Los Angeles ... there will be no Digital rep
funded (in Los Angeles) for this national account .. will the distributor
please handle all the business?  Oh!  They want to talk to Digital also?
No problem, we'll fly one from Virginia to Los Angeles.

I was explaining this new account strategy to one of my customers.  He
took notice of the fact that the company commonly known as "Big Blue"
has office space about 100 yards from us:  "Jerry, if you won't walk
across the street to see us, they will".

These darned customers simply don't understand.  We're doing this for them!

Jerry

I agree that it's not good for Digital to let this situation remain as you,
Jerry, described it.  I'm sure that this case is not the only one of its
kind, either.  What's to be done about it ?

It would appear that the account plan of the remote Digital AM underestimated 
the need for a local selling resource.  Can't this be fixed ?  Isn't there 
any procedure for adjusting account plans according to short-term variances ?  
Clearly, it would cost Digital much more to deal with this customer from a 
remote site than it would to fund some percent you or someone like you.  

Have you tried to get your AM or AGM to negociate this with the remote AM ?
If this or a similar procedure is not standard, I'd raise the issue asap with
the Sales Operations manager(s) for the relevant geographies.  It's clear that
Digital's business objectives of position and image are at stake in such cases,
and I trust that you are not the only one aware of this !

Cries of despair in this notesfile are useful for letting off steam, but I'm
sure that an experienced sales rep has more arrows in his quiver.

David Goldblatt - Europe I.M.

    I don't question that there may be an unacceptable situation. I believe
    you've stated the solution....the Corporate Account Manager IS
    responsible to provide the correct resources wherever it's necessary to
    make his account plan execute successfully.

    What ever happened to 'just do it' - find out what the customer wants, 
    give him a quote, inform the CAM (and your local DM, Sales ops,
    basically CYA) and GET THE BUSINESS!
    
    WE'VE GOT TO STOP WALKING AWAY FROM REVENUE!
    
    My two cents...

    This situation doesn't feel right at all.  I'm curious about something. 
    Would the person who told you to stay away from the customer have said
    that if Bob Hughes had been in the room?

    Instead of spending our time finding out how to get our goods and
    services into the hands of a customer and the customer's money into our
    pocket, we spend our time making sure to observe artificial boundaries
    that are invisible to the customer and seem very poorly connected to
    that customer's satisfaction.
    
    I'm not so naive as to advocate chaos. We need an organization or
    structure or plan for selling things in an orderly and coherent
    fashion. However, from the situation Jerry describes it certainly
    appears to my non-sales eye that we've crossed the line from being in
    business to satisfy customers to being in business to reify our
    internal mechanisms.
    
    John H.

    This is another nail in dec's coffin.  management (and .1) STILL don't
    get it.  We are here to service and support our customers, not the
    other way around.
    
    Say what you want about big blue.  One thing I know, they do not
    WILLINGLY walk away from business like dec does.
    
    Sending soneone cross country instead of cross street to TALK with
    the customer is another example of dec's management intentional waste
    of money and resourses. 
    
    I know, account managment teams like corporate accounts are necessary.
    We also need to provide face to face contact but in a cost
    effective manner. 
     

    Digital "management" (blend in hysterical laughter) strikes again!!
    
    Come on Jerry....you're kidding, right?  What is your real problem?
    
    BTW, if you're sitting on your butt, why not do some cold calling?  Oh,
    I forgot, not funded....right?
    
    Is there some kind of a secret agency that specializes in rejects that
    provides us with our management?  Haven't we learned yet, after all the
    blood-letting of the past year or so, that our customers couldn't care
    less about our problems?  Disgusting.

.5> What ever happened to 'just do it' - find out what the customer wants, 
.5> give him a quote, inform the CAM (and your local DM, Sales ops,
.5> basically CYA) and GET THE BUSINESS!

Hey, I could continue to call on the customer, I could sell products and
services ... do lots of business and have a happy and satisfied customer.
Guess what.  I'm a failure.  The customer is happy, DEC profits, and,
I'm a failure.  Ever heard the term "caught between a rock and a hard
place"?

.6> This situation doesn't feel right at all.  I'm curious about something. 
.6> Would the person who told you to stay away from the customer have said
.6> that if Bob Hughes had been in the room?

Good question.  I've been selling for MotherDEC for 15 years and will be the
first to admit that I am not privy to all of our strategic goals.  Maybe there
is something here that I just don't understand.

As I said above, I don't *have* to "stay away" from this customer.  I've been
told that if this customer wants sales they will have to call a remote site.
If they need a sales representative face-to-face they'll fly one out here.
No, as I said, I could go keep the customer happy and be a failure.  My choice.

.7> ... from the situation Jerry describes it certainly
.7> appears to my non-sales eye that we've crossed the line from being in
.7> business to satisfy customers to being in business to reify our
.7> internal mechanisms.

Well, from this very sales oriented eye ... there's something inside of me
that says you're right.  I am absolutely POSITIVE that the intention of
the new "account" focus was to do the best possible job for the customer -
there is no question what-so-ever but that was the case.  It's a damned good
idea - focus on the customer - that's the bottom line - no question about
it - I agree and heartily support such a plan .. The implementation has
gone astray and I am at a total loss as to what to do.

.9> Come on Jerry....you're kidding, right?  What is your real problem?

I have a serious problem.  I love selling and giving the competition a
good whippin'.   I like DEC products and services.  I mean this with
all my heart - there's no better 'high' than to win a sale, have a
satisfied customer, and profits for Digital.  When I see a customer
that has a need and we can satisfy that need ... I like to make sure
that we're there to help.  That's my problem.  I know, I know - there's
no real justification for feeling that way, but, well, that's the way
it is.
    
.9> BTW, if you're sitting on your butt, why not do some cold calling?  Oh,
.9> I forgot, not funded....right?

As I'm sure you're aware the "sittin' on my butt' " phrase was used
figuratively ... I've been known to put in more than one 18 hour/day
to make a sale.

Again, I'm sure that this account focus is the right thing to do - it's
just that the implementation has some "kinks" that need to be straightened
out ... how the Hell do we do it before we get into deep snickers with
out customers?  We have time to correct this.  It's to start July 1 -
so .. HOW DO WE STOP THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

			H  E  L  P  !!

Jerry

	Hi,

	Unfortunately, there is no fix for this one.  Lost
	sales, PO'ed customers mean NOTHING to the folks in
	the ivory towers.

	I watched distant management drive a Digital customer 
	right into the hands of Big Blue because they apparently
	had the "out of sight, out of mind" syndrome.

	The customer told me he had PO numbers lined up for
	multiple vaxcluster systems, network stuff, and on
	and on.  But someone in a distant office didn't live 
	up to a committment when a crisis arrived, and
	I watched 'em install a 3081 mainframe and assorted
	cooling pumps, drives, cabinets, instead of
	a buncha VAXen a couple of months later.

	Nobody seemed to care.  Certainly no one was held
	accountable.

	My advice, Jerry, is to amuse yourself by watching
	the IBM deliveries begin to roll in starting about
	6 months from now.  You can play that license 
	plate-counting game we all know from childhood....

	Steve H

    Jerry, I was pulling your leg about "sitting on your butt".  Didn't
    mean to imply otherwise.  

    I just went through this yesterday with a buddy in sales (I'm EIS).  He
    was trying to figure our how to break the news to several of our major
    (local) accounts that they'd have no local rep after July first.  These
    are folks who have a long a stable relationship with the local office,
    in some cases going back 15 years.  They all have one thing in common:
    they are local divisions of national corporations.
    
    By defining the "account" at the CAM level, we are making an implicit
    assumption that the most bang for the buck is obtained by selling to
    corporate management.  One way for the CAM to improve his P&L is to get
    rid of the sales coverage for those outlying divisions.  The problem
    is, the validity of the above assumption is far from self-evident. 
    From experience, it's as often false as true.  Many division-structured
    companies give division executives considerable freeedom in running
    their businesses.  Technology cannot be imposed by corporate and you've
    got to go out and sell at the divisional level.  Attempts to impose
    choices from above will normally be met with hostility (a mad bull
    elephant is _nothing_ compared with a division exec whose prerogatives
    have been stepped on).
    
    Of course, there's no way you can tell Digital management that a single
    business model won't work in every situation.  We're more addicited to
    global solutiuons than we are to making money.  No doubt, in the long
    run, wise CAMs (or the wise successors of stupid CAMs) will realize the
    need to adapt the selling style to the customer's organizational
    culture (rather than the other way 'round).
    
    By then, it may be too late...
    
    -dave

      re:0 et al
      My little .02 cents worth.
      Something is really wrong with this situation. Spoke with the two
    senior level sales reps, not the way this should work at all.
    
    This is beyond that which is known as common sense. Don't think it
    should be dismissed as "that's the program".
    
    Thank goodness our team is on site with the customer, everyday.
    
    I would advise escalation, but then again..."how's your blood pressure".
    
    Good luck.
    
    
    Dave

Re:         <<< Note 1476.13 by WHOS01::BOWERS "Dave Bowers @WHO" >>>

>						No doubt, in the long
>    run, wise CAMs (or the wise successors of stupid CAMs) will realize the
>    need to adapt the selling style to the customer's organizational
>    culture (rather than the other way 'round).
    
Two reasons why not:

1.  Makes too much sense, and

2.  That's the way we've always done it.  Why change now?

-  David

    re: .10
    
    While the scenario in .11 is certainly possible, it should be possible
    to find a course of action that doesn't undermine what management is
    trying to do, doesn't turn away all our customers, and still satisfies
    the desire of salespersons to sell Digital products and services.
    
    I suggest you become an advocate for your local Digital customers. 
    Explain to them that you can't sell them anything, or make
    presentations, or anything like that---there's a different group which
    does that, and you don't want to usurp their perogatives.  However,
    if they have a question or problem they can always call you, and if
    you don't have the answer you can use your access to internal Digital
    resources to get the answer.  This includes problems with their sales
    representative: if they aren't able to get the attention that they feel
    they deserve, you can elevate the problem through the Digital
    management chain.
    
    You won't sell any products or services by doing this, but the customer
    will find Digital a much nicer company to buy from as a result of your
    efforts.
        John Sauter

	Jerry,

	Maybe you answered this and I missed it but what does your
	boss think about all this? I mean if you sell something to
	this customer and get credit for it they do too right? Seems
	like they would have an interest in solving this problem even
	if they didn't care about the company.

	Also have you talked to the account manager and do they really
	think that flying people out is a better way of doing business
	than funding you to sell locally? Or are their hands tied by some
	higher person?

	It's hard to believe that such things were not thought about. Well,
	no I guess it's not so hard. This is Digital after all. At other
	companies I would think that it would have been thought of and
	solutions worked out. It must be a common situation where a large
	customer has divisions far away from the account manager. What
	do we do for multi nationals BTW. Do we fly people from NYC to
	serve banks in Hong Kong? (Trick question. I think we do.)

	Somehow I believe that the people at high levels who approve such
	thinks see paper plans that leave things out. If they don't have
	much field or selling experience they're not going to come up
	with these problems on their own. Sales management should know better
	though.

			Alfred

.16> I suggest you become an advocate for your local Digital customers. 
.16> Explain to them that you can't sell them anything, or make
.16> presentations, or anything like that---there's a different group which
.16> does that, and you don't want to usurp their perogatives.

You don't seem to understand that I *can't* do that!  Why?  No return on
investment!  I'm "funded" to do 'x' ... if I do 'y' ... I'm a failure!

Another thing.  How do I "explain to them" that I'm a Sales Executive, been
with Digital Equipment for 15 years and can't sell 'em anything?  Give me
the words to use, and, I'll be just tickled pink to tell 'em.

.16> You won't sell any products or services by doing this, but the customer
.16> will find Digital a much nicer company to buy from as a result of your
.16> efforts.

And I'm a failure - they can have a new "advocate" next year because I won't
be here .. I didn't make my "budget".

I repeat ... what the hell do we do?

Jerry

.17> 	Maybe you answered this and I missed it but what does your
.17> 	boss think about all this?

My manager's hands are tied.  Nothing can be done.  If the ACCOUNT manager
in Houston doesn't want to fund any sales effort in Bakersfield - so be it.
The customer calls Houston for sales.

.17> I mean if you sell something to this customer and get credit for it
.17> they do too right?

Wrong.  If I sold 'em a $1M ... I get (read my lips)  Z E R O  credit.  Would
probably get repremanded (seriously) for selling to that customer!!!!!!!!!!

.17> Also have you talked to the account manager and do they really
.17> think that flying people out is a better way of doing business
.17> than funding you to sell locally?

This is why I started this note - I talked to the account manager.  I was
told, in no uncertain terms, that they'd fly a sales rep from Houston to
Los Angeles or Bakersfield to talk to the customer ... there will be NO
sales representation for a $6,000,000 a year customer in Bakersfield.

.17> Or are their hands tied by some higher person?

You broke the code.

.17> Sales management should know better though.

Sales management can't do a damned thing about it ... but .. follow the
rules.  They like their job .. I like my job ... so you follow the rules
and let the customers flounder ...

Jerry

    re: .18
    
    You have to make your budget _and_ be an advocate for the nearby
    Digital customers.
    
    When I tell customers that I'm a Software Engineer, been with Digital
    Equipment for 15 years but can't fix a trivial problem in their text
    editor in less than a year, even though I'm the project leader, they
    understand.  They don't ask for details; they seem to intuitively
    realize that some things can't be done, even though they should be
    possible.  So my answer is: just tell them.
        John Sauter

    Beeler is not only absolutely correct, he is *more* than correct.
    DEC P&P's don't allow truly frank and accurate characterizations
    of this situation.
    
    It is structurally nothing more than the scheme that died just
    before birth about 18-20 months ago.  The difference is in the
    P&L piece.  But the fly-em-from-all-over strategy is the same.
    The field shot it down last time but it seems to have reared
    its ugly head again.  And in a far more dangerous mutation.
    
    First, the only way you design a customer/account driven 
    organization is to do it in tandem with the customers.
    What you actually do is work with the customer to design
    the organization.  I mean, there are reasonably well-tested
    ways of going about this process and, if done correctly, 
    they work.  I doubt it Jerry's customers were ever asked
    their opinion as to how Jerry and DEC can best serve them.
    
    Second, the above sort of approach is never going to be
    attempted as long as we have quarterly revenue fire drills.
    
    I would suggest to DEC senior management that they tattoo
    Deming's 14 points on their kneecaps and force them to
    get down on their knees in umbrage to the field for
    this aggregious mistake.
    
    Joel
    

	The other problem that the author of .0 has is:

	If he winds up being a liaison for the customer, taking
	brochures, quotes, etc back and forth, he will 
	eventually become the waterboy for the account
	management group, and their demands on his time will
	increase.

	Meanwhile, the accounts Jerry is "funded" to sell to
	get less and less of his attention.

	The account group kilomiles away just moves some
	more paper around and everything is peachey for them.

	This is WRONG.

	Steve H

	P.S.  I submitted a DELTA proposal last year that suggested
	that EVERYONE at Digital be allowed/encouraged/empowered to
	sell.  It got blown off..... sch

	... buck the trends of the New Management system, a very high
level Sales VP, long-time DECcie was ushered out of his job this week
due to (but not limited to!) not wanting to do things the "new" way.

    Re:  .18,.19
    
    Jerry,
    
    You stated that you would get zero credit for this order.
    Isn't there something called "shadow booking credit" that
    happens when a sale is made cross-account/country?
    
    I've had calls myself where sales is asking me if they got
    their shadow booking credit for an order I've processed.
    
    Perhaps talking to your UM and/or SIDB (measurement system)
    person might shed some light on whether this type of option
    could be used.
    

>.17> I mean if you sell something to this customer and get credit for it
>.17> they do too right?
>
>Wrong.  If I sold 'em a $1M ... I get (read my lips)  Z E R O  credit.  Would
>probably get repremanded (seriously) for selling to that customer!!!!!!!!!!

	I wasn't clear. What I was trying to say was that if your boss
	got it fixed so that you (and he) got some credit it would be
	worth his while. But then I hear you saying that no one in management
	either sees this as a problem or wants to fix it.

	Thought about giving Jack Smith a call?

			Alfred

    OK, Jerry, so what happens (and it will) when local customers tell the
    remote account teams to kiss off?  That they will only deal with local
    sales folk?  Do we give them IBM's number?
    
    Could part of the problem be that we really don't understand the high
    degree of autonomy that many divisions have?  I would think it would
    really p--- off a lot of division folk when we lump them all together.
    I know when I worked for Aerojet Electrosystems, we were just one of
    twenty companies under the Aerojet-General umbrella.  The twenty companies
    had virtually nothing in common, particularly procurement policies.  Same
    was true when I worked with Generous Motors a few years back.
    
    I used to kinda kiddingly talk about something being in the air in
    Stow.  I'm beginning to seriously wonder.....

    re: .23
    
    I believe it.  I've heard of other situations, albeit at
    somewhat lower levels.
    
    You see, by telling everyone that this system is "account"
    focused they are all but wrapping the thing up in the
    flag.  Account means customer and we all love customers,
    don't we?  Therefore opposing the new, improved version
    of our organization means opposing customers. 
    
    But of course this new way seems to be shaping up as
    anti-customer.  Perhaps the senior execs think the "customer"
    is comprised solely of CEO's?  Ever hear the word "buyer"?
    
    Not to hammer on the same point, (Quality) but consider the
    famous case of Florida Light & Power, the only U.S. firm
    to win the Deming Award.  They did something like 115,000
    quality projects over a ten or eleven year period.  They
    understood that real improvement, and real closeness to
    customers, is a long-term process.  Doing it right takes
    a long time.  It takes a corporate effort.  And it is
    very far from easy.
    
    As opposed to: let's let DEC senior management carve up
    the org chart and define for the field and for the customers
    what they want and need to succeed.  And let's do it
    real quick.
    
    Wonder if Beeler can start selling watches?
    
    Joel
    

    re: .24  (shadow bookings)
    
    I believe shadow credit flows the other way.  That is, from
    sales rep to CAM.  Sales rep (under the current system) 
    certs the order, and the NAM or CAM gets SIDB shadow credit.
    
    Joel
    

    RE:  .28
    
    Oh well...it was worth a try :-)
    How about getting someone to introduce the customer
    to EDI, Estore, DECdirect?

.29> How about getting someone to introduce the customer
.29> to EDI, Estore, DECdirect?
    
    No problem.  What if the customer wants something he can't get thorugh
    DECdirect ... something trivial, like a 6000 culster ...?
    
    Jerry

    
    
    maybe I missed something, but can't the account manager fund you for
    x% of your work week? Ie 5 hours a week to be spent working for this
    customer?
    
    if so, then you need to sell the account manager on the advantage of
    having you on his team?
    
    this does seem like a good way of business, if the account manager
    needs a local person, they can contract the local sales office for so
    many hours a week. Should help track P&L, and mean resources are only 
    used as necessary. And the local office will wither and die if they
    don't contribute value to any account teams.
    
    Simon

    re: .31  (Simon)
    
    Your idea is great - unfortunately, the system is designed to
    exclude this very elegant solution.  Fund an entire headcount
    or fund nothing at all.
    
    Joel
    

    
    Sad to see frustration replace revenue.
    
    There are definitely different interpretations around DEC of how this
    should work. The intent to be customer-focussed has to be right, but as
    base noter has made very clear, the customer in this illustration may
    not have been given his option of saying whether he prefers the new
    option ....
    
    FWIW, Pier Carlo Falotti, President Europe & a very forceful guy,
    opened last year's Decville in Cannes last September with a staff
    briefing that it was every staff members duty at Decville to get
    orders, & that he didn't care if they were on table napkins as long 
    as they were real! He would be very curious if this situation were to
    arise as blatantly as described in .0 within Europe.
    
    Have you spoken to the CAM, or to other members of the account team?
    The CAM's I know are unlikely to be dismissive of any way of reducing
    their costs, whilst boosting revenue -- or of reducing costs for the
    same revenue. They (& DEC) win either way.
    
    Logic dictates that you minimise costs by first trying to keep customers
    happy by providing local support, then fan the search out if specialised 
    needs exist. The inference of .0 is that logic is either not clearly 
    explained locally, or not seen as paramount by the company. Either
    situation is difficult to support.
    
    One absolute no-no is the risk of unhappy staff bad-mouthing the
    company out of frustration. I'm absolutely NOT suggesting that this 
    happens in this case, but I have seen it occur in many situations --
    in other companies I have worked for, as a customer, in press articles
    etc. What you have that depth of loss of confidence & morale, you are
    on a very slippery slope. 
                                                  
    We cannot knowingly run that risk. 

.33> Have you spoken to the CAM, or to other members of the account team?

Absolutely!  It was the CAM that said "I'll fly sales reps from Houston
if this customer wants to see a DEC sales rep".

.34> From the level of emotion, I'd guess that Jerry's got a personal
.34> relationship with the local people at the customer.

No personal relationship at all ... just good DEC customers.  The level of
emotion is simply the result of selling for 15 years and now being told that
I *can't* sell to a certain customer or I'll be a failure.  The level of
emotion comes from "cutting expenses" yet flying sales representatives all
over the US when I could walk across the street.  The level of emotion comes
from "customer satisfaction" and telling a customer that he has to get his
sales support from 2,000 miles away.  The level of emotion comes from the
simple insane fact that I have loved selling for MotherDEC, was successful
at it, and, want(ed) to continue to do it.

.34> If you can prepare a cogent proposal to your DM and to the CAM, for
.34> some % of funding from the local accounts group, and some from the CAM..

Let me see.  I write a proposal to ask to sell to a customer across the
street from me that I've been selling to for the last year.  What's wrong
with this picture?  Where does one "draw the line"?

.34> and maybe have your
.34> customer escalate the problem internally to their HQ at the same time,

The *last* think that I want to do is to even let this customer know that
I will not be calling on him after 1 July ... that his sales rep will be
flown in from 2,000 miles away.  I'm very sorry, but, I simply can't find
the words to ask my customer to get involved with this.  When it comes
time to break local ties with this customer, I don't now what I'm going
to do ... I'm a professional and experienced, but, I'll be damned if I
can find the words to tell him.  How would you phrase it? (Seriously)

.34> well, who knows...the right thing might just happen. 

I'm going to try prayer ... maybe there's an outside chance ....

Jerry

    
    All this reminds me of a comment I heard in Germany last week,
    
    "DEC is the only company I know of which has had customers lined up,
    outside the door, wanting to give us money for our products, while
    we're inside, wondering if this is the right thing to do!"
    
    It really makes you wonder, doesn't it?

I was discussing this today at lunch with some people who attended a
"VMS Partners" meeting a couple of weeks ago.

At this meeting, Ken specifically stated that he wanted NAMES of anyone
who is telling any DEC salesman not to make a sale.

This was in response to a question from the floor complaining about
the difficulty of getting a DEC customer in contact with the "right"
DEC salesman.

/john

    I attended the "New Management System" training this morning and
    remembering a similar note from Jerry from a few weeks ago, raised the
    question of the local office not being funded to cover the local arm of
    an account. The answer I was given is that it would be a mistake in
    terms of customer satisfaction to do that, and an abuse of the New Mgmt
    System.
    
    I also understood that minimally you would get certs credit for
    business that came in like that, wouldn't you?
    
    As much as I can empathize with your frustration with the system, I
    really have to agree with the comment that here (this notesfile) isn't
    the place to find the answer. If folks like Bob Hughes have a vested
    interest in making the new mgmt system work, then CALL him or write,
    and document your concerns.
    
    Best wishes, and here's hoping you DO elevate the issue.
    

    There is a whole pile of misinformation in this topic - so much so that
    I haven't the time or energy to correct it all, but let me make a few
    observations:

    Jerry is being somewhat less then honest about this.  I don't think for
    a minute that it's malicious, but I think it's important for the
    majority of noters who don't work in line sales to understand some of
    the subtleties at play here.  What he's not telling you is that as bad
    as the situation may sound for the customer, it may be ten times worse
    for Jerry.  Taking territory away from a rep, especially large chunks,
    may seriously impact the career progression of that rep; indeed, in the
    current climate, it may even mean the loss of a job.  I'm not going to
    defend the proposed action by the account manager as I haven't a clue
    whether or not it makes sense (not enough information), but as you
    ponder the situation you should consider this angle.
    
    I had dinner a few weeks ago with a certain Geography V.P.  During the
    conversation, the situation mentioned by Dave Bowers earlier in this
    topic came up (we work in the same district).  The V.P. actually seemed
    somewhat annoyed by the 'whiney' way in which the subject was broached,
    then looked at us like we were all insane and stated something to the
    effect that remote coverage of major accounts makes no sense and there
    was no way that account plans which specified it in any destructive way
    would be approved.  A kind of a "get a grip" pep-talk.  At any rate, it
    just confirmed for me that the details of this whole process are
    impossible to absorb once you get high up in the organization.  As a
    postscript, several of the account plans which this V.P. assured us
    would never be approved were the next day.  This V.P., who I have
    always and still do have a healthy respect for, has since been canned
    (at least, it looks that way to me).
    
    Bob Hughes has a very strong vision that this company will have a sales
    force that will be account focused.  There will be also be sales teams
    organized around certain products and technologies.  We will get much
    smarter about using channels and distribution to sell our products. 
    He is one of the few people in this company who make me believe that we
    still have a fighting chance for survival.  Just an opinion, but only a
    moron who has never been exposed to the man would simply dismiss him as
    another ivory-tower featherweight.  I don't know if he really sees all
    that is happening as a result of his changes, or if he intends things
    to be exactly as they are evolving, but I'm pretty sure he knows what
    he is doing.
    
    Anyway, that's all for now.
    
    Al
    

    Al is being "somewhat less than honest about this".  What we used to
    call area managers and now call "Geography VP's" have their own agenda
    and their own territory to fight for and their own jobs to worry about
    as well as their conflicts with corporate account managers.

    Bob Hughes has an agenda that his vision will succeed in being
    translated into practice.  People who report up to Hughes, Don Zereski,
    and so on have their own agenda: namely reporting that the vision is
    being turned into actual practice and it's all working.

    Yet the feedback loop to the top of the company when a $100,000 sale is
    lost because Digital didn't bother to show up is a drop in the bucket.
    But the aggregate of those drops is a flood.

    It is a small wonder that a brave sales rep who says it isn't working
    is dismissed for being "whiney".

    Our sales rep friend in .0 is not looking out for his own skin, for if
    he work, he'd shut up and just call on the accounts that he's been
    directed to.

    Since when has "common sense" been against policy in Digital?

    The right thing to do in so many of these cases is to involve the
    customer in the decision to support them remotely.  If the customer
    doesn't actually purchase some significant multiple of a sales reps
    salary (and a VAXcluster might not), then this customer isn't going to
    get coverage.

    This process of making the sales force "effective" by eliminating the
    expensive-to-service customers, is probably eliminating the customers
    without understanding why these customers are expensive to service.

    I'm not sure where the fix lies: does it end with better feedback in
    this one case to the CAM, or is the process that allows the CAM to
    eliminate local sales reps from the customers that need one broken
    (and who's going to judge if a rep is needed), or is the process that
    creates the process broken that allows sales resources to allocated
    in a way that doesn't maximize customer satisfaction.

    "Total empowerment of the CAM's to decide resource allocations" and
    "Let absolutely no sales be lost" are inherently contradictory.

    I'm avoiding my own memo wars over what is and isn't in the account
    plans that affect my group in order to do some real work.  I'll
    probably have similar horror stories in a few months.

    One answer to the "orphan customer" problem might be a single,
    corporate-funded customer service rep in each office whose job would be
    to hand-hold those accounts whose primary aupport wil be from a remote
    location.  Such a person could serve as the initial point of contact
    for these customers and be responsible for ensuriing correct referral
    of customer issues.  He/She could also deal with simple literature and
    quotation requests.
    
    -dave

	I've enclosed my DELTA suggestion about enabling everyone
	to sell, without artificial boundaries.  While it
	doesn't directly address Jerry's dilemma, I believe that
	a "Sell DEC" strategy throughout the corporation 
	is the proper approach....( of course, the suggestion
	was dismissed ).

		Proposal - Let's All Sell Digital Equipment

	In the past, the (then) Field Service organization
	was allowed to sell upgrades, peripheral equipment,	
	add-ons, etc.  They were closer to the customer than
	almost anyone else, and from day-to-day contact, knew
	about changing needs.

	Later, this program was abandoned, often to the
	detriment of Digital's relationships with its customers.

	Sales teams, harried as they are, sometimes put the
	order for a couple of disk drives on the back burner as
	they pursued the huge VAXcluster sale down the block.
	And this is understandable.  

	While it's laudable to state that "The little customer
	is just as important as the big guy", in truth, the
	saleman is driven by a huge year-end quota that he must
	meet, and spending the time on the potential large sale
	is probably the right thing for him/her to do.

	I suggest that virtually ANYBODY at Digital be set up to
	initiate a customer order.

	For instance, here at the Customer Support Center, we often
	talk to customers stuck with a software problem that one
	of our analysis tools could solve.  Why not have an online
	system that would allow a support center specialist to
	send a customer a software tool ( say, Performance and
	Coverage Analyzer, or DEC Test Manager ) and initiate
	a tailored 30-day-expiration product key ?  The customer
	uses the tool, decides whether or not to buy it, and
	in 30 days, the tool becomes inactive if the key is not
	renewed.

	Why not allow a receptionist or contract administrator
	to suggest a printer to the customer, and get the order
	started ?

	Why not allow the Customer Service unit manager to price
	the hardware and installation for a network installation
	or disk drives or memory ?

	Digital needs to sell more of what we make.  Making it
	easier for a customer to buy is a good first step toward
	getting Digital out front again.

	Our excellent Sales staff needs time  to spend
	pursuing new business, large sales, and interconnectivity.
	These pursuits take time, research, lengthy meetings, and
	the endless searches for the right resource.  Let's free
	them up to do this.

	We can ALL sell Digital.....

	Steve Hall

DIGITAL'S WEISS QUITS TO JOIN SMALLER FIRM

	  "Digital's Weiss Quits to Join Smaller Firm"
	  (The Wall Street Journal, 05/24/91)

Harvey L. Weiss, a senior executive at Digital Equipment Corp., resigned
unexpectedly and is expected to take a top position with fast growing Thinking
Machines Corp., a closely held Cambridge, Mass. based maker of parallel
supercomputers, Digital insiders said.  Neither Mr. Weiss nor a Thinking
Machines spokesman would confirm the move.  Mr. Weiss, 48 years old, a vice
president at Digital, was chief of the government systems group.  A 20-year
veteran, he helped build the group into a $2 billion business, or about 15% of
the company's $12.94 billion in revenue in the year ended June 30.  Thinking
Machines is expected to have sales this year of about $60 million.  Executives
called the departure a setback for Digital, based in Maynard, Mass., and coup
for Thinking Machines.  "He knew the government business inside out," a
Digital sales executive said.  "Selling to the government is a black art, and
any time that you lose someone with that kind of expertise, it's going to
hurt."  In an interview, Mr. Weiss said that his departure was an amicable one
and that he remains on good terms with Digital.  He also said he hoped to
provide consulting services to Digital for a period following his departure.
Insiders at Digital said that one of the reasons Mr. Weiss decided to leave is
that he had sought to create a separate division for government sales and had
been rebuffed by a management committee.  IBM and other computer makers have
such divisions, allowing them to bid for big military and federal research
contracts.  Such separate divisions are sometimes required by the government
for certain "cost-plus" contracts.  Mr. Weiss, however, maintained that the
company's decision against setting up a separate division didn't figure in his
decision to depart.  "There wasn't any disagreement...I just decided it was
time to try something new," he said.  On the same day that executives inside
the company were told of Mr. Weiss's departure, his group scored a big sale to
the U.S. Navy.  In a statement, Digital said it received a personal computer
networking contract with a potential value of $140 million.  Under the
contract, Digital will sell hardware, software and services for up to 8,000
local-area networks, potentially connecting more than one million personal
computers now in use at the Defense Department.  The contract initially extends
through Sept. 30, 1992, but includes an option to extend the period for
purchases to 36 months and for services and spare parts to 72 months, the
statement said.  (Article Reprinted in Its Entirety)


------- End of Forwarded Message

>This idiot not only pushes a competitor's product, he gives instructions on
>how to get in touch with a salesperson! He can't even justify it by saying

	Well, he may have made a strategic error, but taking a look
	at our DECdirect catalog for Winter/Spring 1991, I see
	a discussion of the TKZ08 tape drive:

	"The TKZ08-AA subsystem is the Mountain Network Solutions Inc.'s
	 FileSafe 2100D, which uses....  It retains its third-party
	 vendor label, and is delivered with documentation written to
	 meet Digital's format requirements."

	Our "added value" here to justify the $1800-$2200 price tag
	is re-written docs.

	Let's go easy on the poster.  As long as our decent tape
	devices come from other vendors, we're gonna have to eat
	some crow....

	Steve H

    Just a minute.
    
    Certain versions of the news kits being distributed among customers
    have a defaults file which set the "Organization:" to Digital Equipment
    Corporation.
    
    Not everyone who has that in their "Organization:" heading is a Digital
    employee.

I would respectfully request that the author of .44 pick up the phone and
call a local Dec sales office (or 1-800-Digital or 508-897-5111) and ask
the same question.  Then report back to us on

-- how long it took to get an answer.
-- whether the answer was relevant to the customer's needs.
-- whether the answer improved relations with the customer.

Martin.

I'm missing something here. What does calling DEC have to do with the Usenet
post? If you are referring to the customer's attempt to get information, this
happens all the time. Everybody tries to get unbiased opinions prior to
making a major purchase, don't they?

    RE: .44

    I'm not all that familiar with the particular devices (8mm and 4mm
    tapes) but don't get all that upset about not recommending a DEC
    product.

    We have some of the best products and services in the industry, but,
    there are indeed times where the competition has a product which may in
    fact out-perform ours, and, be 1/2 the price.  Why buy DEC?  Used to be
    that you could say "service" ... but ... I'd give you better than even
    odds that our field service organization will maintain that "other"
    piece of hardware.  What's the delineating factor?  Easy.  I'd love
    dearly to sell 50 workstations with "foreign" 4 mm tapes on it than to
    push those 50 workstations with *our* 4 mm tapes and take a chance on
    blowing the sale.

    Now, back on tack?  Could someone give me some very concise and sage
    advice of how to attack this pending issue of a customer located in my
    backyard that is going to be serviced by a sales unit 2,000 miles away?

    If you say "write a letter" ... how's about giving me a sample of the
    letter *you* would write (seriously, I'm sort of at odds as to how to
    word it).

    Jerry

re: .50:

    Now, back on tack?  Could someone give me some very concise and sage
    advice of how to attack this pending issue of a customer located in my
    backyard that is going to be serviced by a sales unit 2,000 miles away?

Take the customer to lunch (or whatever) and level with him that his
sales unit's 2,000 miles away and you're not happy about this either.
Tell him that, if his new sales unit isn't every bit as good as his old,
to call Ken Olsen and get the problem straightened out.

Martin.

    RE: .51 Interesting idea Martin. I know some people who have used
    that method. Sometimes it works. Usually only if you've got the right
    customer. On the other hand, if management finds out it can be very
    career limiting. Doing the right thing for the customer is not
    universally appreciated at Digital.

    		Alfred

    Yep, Martin, that's certainly on way to approach it ... however, you've
    certainly got to have the "right" customer.

    Were I a DEC customer, I just may be prone to think that this is the
    dumbest thing I've ever hear of and ... well ... "go to Hell, DEC. 
    Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out".
    
    Personally, after experiencing nearly every imaginable sales
    "situation" over this last 15 years .. *nothing* has prepared me for
    this ... nothing.

    Jerry

    re: a few
    
    The processes for dealing with customers should include a sales channel
    strategy which is supposed to be designed to manage the cost of sales.
    
    From .0's and others' descriptions, it would appear that the CAM and 
    maybe CAMs have not done their homework.
    
    Aren't there Operations Managers in the U.S. area?  It's frankly hard
    for me to believe that there's been a collective lapse of consciouness.
    
    
    David

    Please see US_SALES_SERVICE Note 15.* for an "official" comment on a
    hypothetical situation like this one.
    
    Dick

    Eh? I didn't think this was a hypothetical situation at all...
    
    	- andy

What I described in US_SALES_SERVICE 15.0 was hypothetical in that I made 
no references to this or any other specific situation.  I tried to capture 
the essence of a number of comments to see if I could get a reasonable 
response.  Each of us will have to judge for ourselves.

Dick

.55> .. a hypothetical situation like this one.

Call Texaco, Exxon, Chevron, Shell, and Arco (all Bakersfield divisions)
and ask them about this "hypothetical" situation.

Jerry

    I have to disagree with Martin's suggestion that the DEC person suggest
    to the customer that Ken Olsen's office be contacted.

    This step _may_ fix the problem for the customer, maybe.  But it
    certainly will cause embarrassment to the managers involved.

    It is, as we say, a career-limiting decision.

    The Sweeney method is to identify people who in the Digital cosmos
    value results more than process, and communicate with them in respect
    and Digital-approved idioms.  If that fails to obtain a
    customer-favorable result, at least the failure won't be on your
    conscience.

    A variation on Martin's suggestion:
    
    During the lunch, tell the customer to call *you* if they get jerked
    around.  They *you* call KO and elevate the problem.  Since KO might
    not be personally at his phone all the time, try the Management
    Response Center, DTN 274-MGRS.  A lady named Deloras Galeota ran the
    place a year ago, I don't know if she is still there.  But I liked her,
    and she has gotten results for us.
    
    re .(whatever)
    
    So, Jerry, you've been calling on these guys for over a year, but have
    no personal relationship?  I'm missing something here.  Is there some
    biiiiiiig order on the line in the next several months you will be
    screwed out of?
    
    In addition to the customer lunch, why not call the CAM  - or CAM's
    manager - and raise hell?  Tell them you have (however much $$$$$$$) on
    the line, and it will feed their budget directly.  The custoemr has a
    relationship with *you* and trusts *you*, not somebody in Houston, 2000
    miles away.  Tell 'em if they don't want the money, they have that
    option to kick you off the account.  Maybe instead of a phone call,
    document this in writing and cc the whole management chain
    between/among you and the CAM.
    
    On the other hand, maybe there's some even biiiiiger deal working at
    the corporate HQ of this account, and this deal might mess it up.  Who
    knows?
    
    My advice is, if this is important, and you *really* believe you are
    right, and you have the facts, then raise hell about it.  If this is a
    battle worth fighting, then fight it.  Maybe you can change things and 
    you won't need to have that lunch.  (Easy for me to say, I don't have
    to fight this one.  But I've fought my share.)
    
    If you've been around for 15 years, you know the right way to elevate
    this one without embarassing anyone that doesn't deserve it. I don't
    buy all the stuff about career limiting moves; I strongly believe if we
    would stand up more often for what's right, we wouldn't be in such
    serious trouble today.
    
    BTW, I was at that VMS Partners' meeting mentioned in here a few
    replies ago.  KO *did* ask for names, but I recall it was names of
    people that were keeping products from market, not people that refused
    to sell to customers.  I don't remember that issue being raised, but it
    was a long evening.  But I'll bet if the issue were raised, he would
    have asked for names.
    
    - Greg

    I see no one actually has any useful advice for Jerry Beeler.
    I declare - this problem seems to loom larger the closer you
    are to customers.
    
    It seems to be the case that this is nothing but a top-down
    attempt to basically tamper with the system, and it is clearer
    than clear that tampering invariably creates more difficulties
    than it solves.  Now why are we making excuses for a travesty
    like this?  Absurdities like this are not just visited by
    a hostile universe upon DEC.  This is what happens in large
    organizations that are run from the top to the bottom.  
    
    If you want an account-focused organization you get the accounts
    to tell us how to organize.  Unless and until we start taking
    our customer-oriented rhetoric seriously, we might as well get
    used to this sort of thing.
    
    Beeler, I hope Texaco et. al. are hiring.  At the gas pumps!
    
    Joel
    

	... speculate that Jerry may have a blessing in disguise by NOT being
on that one's team, if it hasn't changed in the year! :>)

    
    Jerry...
    
    This is, as you are well aware, a totally absurd situation.
    
    Surely, somewhere, there is someone available to you who has
    a) the ability to listen
    b) the intelligence to understand
    c) the power to do something about this.
    
    Who is the person ultimately responsible for customer satisfaction
    in that account?
    
    This sounds like a situation that is worth screaming loudly about.
    
    'gail
    

    Speaking of "enemies"......I received a copy of notes from the last KO
    woods meeting this morning.  In the first para it says:
    
             "Anyone showing a plan that sacrificed short term
              profitability for the long term advantage was
              told to change the plan."
    
    Are things really this bad, or has senior management gone totally
    bonkers?

    Gail ... take a good look at .64 and then ask your question(s) again.

    You know ... there has *got* to be something basically wrong here -
    there's *got* to be a missing piece.  I've been with DEC a long time
    and find it difficult to believe that this is *really* happening - I
    try and try and try ... then ... I read things like .64 and wonder why
    I even try ... then again ... I'm a fighter ... I'm a survivor ... 
    but shades of 'Nam are very much in my thoughts these days.   More
    often than not, I've made the (joking) comment that the USMC and
    hand-to-hand combat trained me for DECsales ... sometimes I wonder.

    Jerry

    re: .64
    
    I don't believe my eyes either.  Is it possible someone got this
    backward?  That what KO really said was something like: "Anyone
    caught sacrificing long-term advantages for short-term profitability
    needs a new plan?"  I can't believe the correspondent didn't
    get it backwards because I can't believe we would officially
    enshrine doing things bass-askwards.
    
    But then again...
    
    It's happening in the CS/Admin world as well, with a program known
    as "QBM."  (Quality Base Management)  I was on a con call this
    morning and couldn't believe my ears.  Identifiable senior
    managers have made a decision to re-organize ASG and CSRAU into
    a particular configuration.  The push is on to do it more or
    less immediately.
    
    Now get this: during the con call I was asked to develop certain
    data that is needed to try to help implement the program.  But
    this is precisely the sort of data you use to START a process
    improvement/organization improvement program!  Amazing!
    
    The horse is sitting squarely behind the cart.  Let's get on
    it and ride...
    
    Joel
    

    I don't think it's helpful to say this discussion hasn't been helpful.
    
    There is a "results" group in Digital, the people with one-on-one
    customer, CSO, supplier, etc. contact.  Humans that work for Digital
    who persuade, inform, serve humans who don't work for Digital.
    
    There is a "process" group within Digital.  These are the people who
    create (because they have "power", time on their hands, etc.) the
    plans, the budgets, the processes, the measurment systems, and so forth
    that guesses at what is going to maximize something (or things) over
    some time horizon.
    
    The process process is broken inside Digital.  People who risk failure
    (losing to Sun, having an unimpressive appearance at a trade show...)
    and are the source of Digital's competitive success ought to be the
    people whose suggestions should count the most and have the most
    influence in forming processes.
    
    Rather the trend is the insulate even more so the people who don't have
    customer accountability from any accountability and turn the heat on
    people with the easiest numbers to measure.

    
    Re .65
    I *do* see your point Jerry - honest.
    
    Having been through a completely hellish eighteen months in sales
    recently I came up with the following options:-
    
    1) leave
    
    In the current economic climate around here this does not seem
    smart, and anyway I don't want to risk going onto commission right
    now (I'm just buying property in a very volatile housing market)
    
    2) go crazy
    
    I tried this. I got profoundly depressed, generated even more
    work problems for myself and attracted the (unwelcome) attentions of
    my manager. My suicidal tendencies did not affect DEC one jot.
    
    3) stop caring
    
    Difficult. I feel very committed to this company (still - even
    though managers have actually laughed in my face for saying so).
    
    4) Detatch
    
    A principle used in dealing with co-dependant relationship recovery,
    interestingly. You still care, you still empathise, but you admit
    that the other person owns their own problems.
    DEC owns it's own problems. I cannot handle them all myself.
    I am part of DEC, and I do what I can to input into problem-solving
    (identifying, wherever I can *without* crucifying myself.
    I do what I can to perform my job as well as I can and in line with
    what my management consider to be "good performance" under the rules
    that they've laid down. 
    
    This company is not my life.
    It used to be - that was unhealthy.
    I would like it to be a bigger part of my life, but not if that
    relationship damages me.
    
    So.....in this string we have agreed that Digital is in a 
    VERY BAD WAY.
    
    So WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT?
    If we can take action (group or individually), let's do it.
    If not, let's put our energy into doing our jobs as well as we can.
    
    Sorry if this sounds black/white or "Pollyanna"-ish.
    It's just my own personal survival mechanism.
    
    'gail
    

    
    "God give me the serenity to accept those things I can't change,
     to change for the good what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference"
                                                                   

In view of some off-line communication that I have had, I wanted to
make a resolute and very public statement concerning my commnets
which relate to the subject matter of this notes string.

Digital Equipment Corporation is unquestionably the best supplier of
products and services in this entire industry - hands down.  I've
invested better than half of my professional life in this corporation.
God and the economy willing, will dedicate the remaining half of
my professional life to Digital.

I have but one objective in mind, that of doing what is best for our
customers and and at the same time making a profit for Digital Equipment
Corporation.  My emotional level in trying to accomplish this goal has
at times exceeded what common sense and professional courtesy would
otherwise dictate.  As such, some of my rather emotional comments may
be misinterpreted.  Being a veteran user of VAX Notes, I should have
been more adept at making my intentions clearer but most assuredly
was derelect in this instance.  An apology is in order.

To any and all who may have interpreted my emotion as negatively directed,
I wanted to extend a personal and sincere apology - woking together we
can accomplish some great things in this industry.  I want to be a part
of it - I want to be a part of solutions - not problems.  We are not
only a corporation, but, a team, a family.  I like my family.

Jerry

    Re .-1
    
    So how was your .0 note resolved? How is your customer going to be made
    happy? Independent of how you chose to express your comments you seemed
    to be making a valid point. Are you now saying your point wasn't valid,
    if so why wasn't it valid? If it was valid how has the situation been
    resolved.
    
    Dave

    	An apology is an order! ???  What the...oh, he said an apology
    is *in* order!  I see.  Well, that's different.  ;^)

    	Hey come on guys, I realize times are tough and everything, but
    are we really to the point where apologies are in order?  You've got
    to understand the notes culture enough to know that it is ok to let
    loose in the notesfiles once and a while especially when the subject
    is work - after all, that's what we're here for right?  It may not
    be as ok to let loose in mail, but then mail is a different medium
    altogether: mail is an involuntary medium, while notes is very much
    a voluntary medium.

    	Anyway, I digress, but take it from me, Jerry is a nice enough guy.
    I can't see him doing anything but what's best for everyone involved.
    So, what is best for everyone involved anyway?...

    				  -davo

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, got stomped on eh, Jerry?  Whoever did so should
    apologize not you.  NMS is being twisted and warped to serve personal
    goals instead of corp goals all over the country - we're seeing it here
    as well. Good luck! - Dave

RE: .73

>    	Hey come on guys, I realize times are tough and everything, but
>    are we really to the point where apologies are in order?  You've got
>    to understand the notes culture enough to know that it is ok to let
>    loose in the notesfiles once and a while especially when the subject
>    is work - after all, that's what we're here for right?  It may not
>    be as ok to let loose in mail, but then mail is a different medium
>    altogether: mail is an involuntary medium, while notes is very much
>    a voluntary medium.

I disagree.  If anything, it is far worse to go flaming in NOTES than in
mail--your attack gets seen by a lot more people.  Proper business etiquette
and courtesy should be observed in NOTES just as it should be observed in
other aspects of our work life.

Which isn't to say that flames don't happen.  I've let go occasionally,
myself.  I've also several times had to apologize for things I said in
notes conferences.  If one writes flames, one must also be prepared to
offer apologies when somebody takes offense.

--PSW

    Thanks, Mr. Winalski.  You hit the nail on the head.
    
    When someone doesn't understand something .. I'll try to explain - when
    they don't understand it again .. I'll try to explain ... if they don't
    understand it and are insulted by it ... I'll apologize and try to
    explain it again ... it's common courtesy.  I've been called a lot of
    things, but, never discourteous.
    
    Look, I came out here one year ago and found the Digital facility
    consisting of four walls, a ceiling, a floor and a telephone in the
    corner of the room.  I ran the Digital office from my bedroom for
    a significant time, and, on equipment that I have *purchased* since I
    couldn't get anything through 'channels'.
    
    During that time I've taken two strategically significant sales away
    from our brethern in blue .. IBM ... and ended up at nearly 150% of
    budget for this fiscal year.
    
    Now, when I see something that *appears* to hamper my ability to give
    the competition a good whippin' ... it hurts ... I get emotional -
    someone has taken my "narcotic" away from me - and - selling is to me a
    narcotic - I love doing it - I don't want anything to slow me down - I
    need my 'fix' of getting a purchase order ... 
    
    So, in responding, I get emotional ... I go into shock ... I respond.
    In doing so ... some things are said which may not be understood - I
    respond - I apologize for those responses.
    
    Now, I'm going to go off and give the competition another good whoppin'
    before the end of this fiscal year ....
    
    Jerry

    
    
     Clone Jerry....
    
    -Mike Z.

    re: -1
    
     I know Jerry Beeler and the world is not ready for Jerry clones. One
    is enough. :^) 
    
     Seriously, give 'em heck Beeler!! Come see us when you get in the
    neighborhood.
    
    Reis