Conference 7.286::digital

Terry,

        It wasn't the first hiring freeze...  They have been happening
        every 6 to 8 quarters for the past ten to fifteen years.
        
        As to your volunteering, I believe most of the plans have a five
        year minimum service before you get any money.  So there is
        nothing in it for you, even if you were offered the buyout.
        
Dick

    Regardless of all the talk (JSmith) about the voluntary nature of
    the transition program, it ain't!!!  If you're selected for transition,
    you can volunteer....nice play on words.
    
    I believe that late in the last transition effort, in a few groups who
    hadn't made their numbers, volunteers were solicited.  But, also in
    this instance you could be turned down if it was determined that you
    job was too important.
    
    I think what they're afraid of is that too many of the wrong people
    would accept the package....and too many slugs and hangers-on would
    not.  Other companies had that experience and we're trying to avoid it.
    I just wish they would volunteer to stop using the word "voluntary".

>    I would not be eligible.  Is it possible to volunteer to leave and
>    save my slot for someone who REALLY wants it ????

It's simple; just find a new job you like and leave; that's the normal way isn't
it?

Simon

    
    	re: .2 
    
    		If the word "volunteer" was not used, then it may
    	make for "complications" regarding unemployment benefits
    	as far as the employer is concerned.  It still may, even
    	with it's use, but do many folks test it?  I don't know.
    
    							Rich

    Terry,
    
    I dont see what your problem is, you just fill out a resignation and
    say your goodbyes. You contract your services to the company for the
    amounts you get in pay and conditions, nothing-more,nothing-less. If
    you dont feel your work conditions are suitable you can take your
    services to where you feel those conditions better suit you for the
    reward you get or you can actively seek to change the problems you see
    from within.
    
    I dont think Digital needs to sweeten the deal for someone who
    genuinely wants to go and if I was a manager who thought you would 
    leave anyway, I certainly wouldnt be giving you a bonus to do so.
    The reason for transition is a belief that people who dont fit current
    company needs can have some opportunity to find new skills or make a
    change outside the corporation, when they havent been considering such
    a move before. It can be pretty traumatic for people who have committed
    to long careers to be suddenly told their services are not needed.
    They have little say in their options, go or shift focus.
    
    You, on the other hand, have actively considered jumping, so your
    decision is your own. Your choice bears less personal cost, go or shift
    focus or stay, the latter one makes a big difference in the equation.
    
    regards,
    John

        
>       As to your volunteering, I believe most of the plans have a five
>       year minimum service before you get any money.  So there is
>       nothing in it for you, even if you were offered the buyout.
 
    Minimum?  Five years?  I don't think so. What I read says 0-3
    years gets the minimum of 16 weeks, and up from there. Personnel
    will definitely help you out with the facts and the details.
    
    Mark

    Re .0
    
    Attitudes like yours really piss me off. You don't like your job;
    simple, resign or find a job in Digital you do like. The package and
    financial incentives are for people whose jobs are being eliminated.
    The package is not a freebie for people who are fed up of working here.
    Sorry if I so blunt, that's how I feel.
    
    Dave

  >Regardless of all the talk (JSmith) about the voluntary nature of
  >the transition program, it ain't!!!  If you're selected for transition,
  >you can volunteer....nice play on words.

	We just had a site meeting in LKG; John Adams explained how
	this works.

	When a group enters into "transition", the local management
	has the choice of how it's offered: either management-selected
	or by asking for volunteers.

	The former is likely to be used when there are certain specific
	jobs that are now redundant; if you asked for general volunteers,
	you might lose those who were doing the jobs that are still 
	viable, and there's no way in which the people who are
	doing the redundant jobs could be redeployed to do the 
	viable-but-vacated jobs.

	The latter is likely to be used when you have a much more
	homogeneous set of jobs and/or pool of skills.
   

                     <<< Note 1271.0 by NEMAIL::GROGANT >>>
                       -< Volunteering for the buyout ? >-

    
    
    >I tried for the last buyout but warnings said that
    >I would not be eligible.  Is it possible to volunteer to leave and
    >save my slot for someone who REALLY wants it ????
    
    The responces so far has been leaning towards "Just plain quit" I would
    have gone that way too, but when the people from Buyout # 1 are asked to
    take buyout # 2 again ,Why not try to get a buyout for your self !
   
    And your right, they are many people are looking for jobs too, 
    so let us know what and where you work , I might want your job too.    

>================================================================================
>Note 1271.6               Volunteering for the buyout ?                   6 of 8
>SAURUS::AICHER                                       10 lines  13-NOV-1990 16:22
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                           -< Check with Personnel >-
>
>        
>>       As to your volunteering, I believe most of the plans have a five
>>       year minimum service before you get any money.  So there is
>>       nothing in it for you, even if you were offered the buyout.
> 
>    Minimum?  Five years?  I don't think so. What I read says 0-3
>    years gets the minimum of 16 weeks, and up from there. Personnel
>    will definitely help you out with the facts and the details.
>    
>    Mark
>

    From the "Lump Sum Settlement Schedule Based on Full Time
    Employment" table in one of the documents we got with the TFSO
    package:
    
    Years of Full-time               Weeks
      Employment                     of Pay
    
         0-2                            13
           2                            13
           3                            16
           4                            19
           5                            22
           6                            25
          etc.
    
    And actual "TFSO weeks" (the time used to calculate the lump sum)
    are figured to two decimal places, e.g., 53.32 TFSO weeks.
    
    pd

    
    Well....I just got the message.
    
    Most groups working under ETQ (Bill Kent) excluding software
    engineering job families will be allowed to volunteer for the buyout.
    
    It seems they only got a fraction of the 6,000 target.
    
    it's official
    
    Mark
    
    
    

Re: .10

>    A special remark for the bozo in .7; you must consider yourself some
>    kind of incredibly insightful god-like creature to assume my
>    motivations from the few remarks in my initial note.  Your attitude 
>    disgusts me.  Had you taken the time to find out about what you wrongly
>    assumed, you probably would have answered differently.

.0 seemed quite clear to me; you hate working for DEC, you want out, and you
want the company to pay you to go. If this is NOT what you meant to say, then I
suggest (respectfully of course:-) that you should reword your original note and
try again.

Simon

There *is* a five-year requirement for the Engineers into Education Program,
which is a voluntary buyout for engineers who want to change careers and
go into the education field.  For details, try VTX EEP.

    
    I guess the disease has spread to ESCROW, because I've read .7 and .14
    a number of times and find myself in complete agreement.
    
    I'll bow to the swining door as you leave and offer a thousand
    apologies for my ineptitude.
    

Terry;

At the risk of also being accused of being illiterate, lets look at your
original note;

>    My question is coming from the opposite direction.  I have been with
>    Digital since the day before the first hiring freeze about 3 1/2
>    years ago.  It has been a downhill ride ever since.  
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In otherwords you don't like your job! At least thats how a number of
people interpret this statement.

>    There appear to
>    be many people who would like to remain with Digital.  I want to know
>    how to get out !                                       ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Read: I want to leave.

>    I tried for the last buyout but warnings said that
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    I would not be eligible.  
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Read:  But, I want to be paid to leave!

>    Is it possible to volunteer to leave and
>    save my slot for someone who REALLY wants it ????
    
The answer to your last question is YES! by resigning. That will add 1 more
name to the list of people who have left thus not requiring somebody else to.
If you want to volunteer for the buyout and have not been designated as one
to be offered it, then the answer, as far as I've been told is NO!    

If this is NOT what you meant to say, then I too respectfully submit that
you rewrite .0.

- George

    
> Note 1271.16 by NEMAIL::GROGANT
    
> -< then there were two bozos ... >-
    
    > The inability to read seems rampant on SMAUG.  .14 seems just as 
    > inept at dealing with people as .7.  I posted this note to try to 
    > get an answer to a question,
    
    We answered your question. 
    
    > not to be mindlessly attacked for my motivations.
    
    You accuse people of mindless attacks on you, then turn around
    and attack and insult them. This is definitely not a professional
    way of handling things.
        
    > The telling fact about their childish notes playing is that neither
    > had an observation on the question asked.  Back to your 'weird' hole
    > slime.
    
    More attacks and insults.. I hope you realize that insulting people
    is against policy. Looks like you are solving your own problem.
    
    /prc

    Many of us were told, during the first package, that we couldn't
    volunteer, weren't eligible, had jobs, etc...  Now they've opened
    up the 2nd package to us and we can volunteer for the significantly
    smaller package.  Guess that's life in the big leagues...things change.
    Intellectually I know we're being treated alot better than most
    companies' employees during similar times, but emotionally I still
    find it hard to understand why the same work is "less valued" now
    than it was 6 months ago.
    
    Also, I must comment that I find the personal attacks/name calling
    in .10 and .16 very offensive.  Of course if the noter persists
    he/she may find another way out of the company they hadn't thought of
    before....  Times are difficult enough without people being so
    nasty and abusive to fellow employees.
    
    Evelyn                                

    CAVEAT: I tried to be nice in .5.
    
    Oh, we are really sorry for misinterpreting your question.
    
    
    2 people:
    I know someone in your position who was just getting ready to leave,
    was really down on things, thought every piece of fruit did it better
    (how they do OLTP is beyond me). He WAS offered transition and took one
    of the 5 job offers he had BEFORE the transition. He used the money for
    an extended tour of Europe before starting the other job. He was
    useless to this company but had good academic credentials.
    
    Another person I know has worked his tail off in a small branch for
    years and was transitioned during the slump. It has had a devastating
    effect on his life. To stay in Digital he has to change cities, career
    paths and status, all involuntarily. He wont have time for European
    trips on the companies expense.
    
    This is not a case of "if you dont like it leave", you have weighed up
    your choices and obviously dont hate the company enough (to the tune
    of 22 weeks salary), to leave now. People leave Digital all the time
    for various reasons, most believing they can do better for themselves
    elsewhere. If you dont, then stay and fix what is wrong, otherwise
    go, but dont expect me to be ecstatic about you taking my next pay-rise
    or one of my companion's jobs with you.

Really, I'm not taking sides here, but I remember seeing other notes here
similar in tone to .0 ("I want the package.  How can I get it?").
Nobody criticized them.  Why is .0 different from those notes?

    It's not. Just a few hot buttons getting pressed, I'd guess.
    
    
    /andy/

>Really, I'm not taking sides here, but I remember seeing other notes here
>similar in tone to .0 ("I want the package.  How can I get it?").
>Nobody criticized them.  Why is .0 different from those notes?
>

.0 was just the unlucky guy that exceded my activation energy threshold:-)

    I think probably the difference is that .0 has so little time with
    the company.  I'm one of the many who would have liked to be offered
    the first package....but I have almost 20 years with the company, and
    could legitimately retire.  BTW, this current package just ain't good
    enough.

    re. last
    Do you think the next package will be any better?
    Do you think there will be anymore packages?
    
    FM
    

    Nope; the next package will be much less good!  I sure hope I don't get
    offered it!  I recall getting laid off (they didn't invent
    circumlocutions for what happened in those days) by one of our
    competitors in 1975.  I got my accrued vacation time, and that was
    that.  I also got to clean out my desk the same day, and call my
    carpool to come take me away.  It took me three months to find another
    job, and at that I was lucky - also real broke!
    
    Bleah!
    
    /Charlotte

    re .26......no I think it'll be much worse, with far fewer options.
    It will look, smell and feel like a lay-off.  After that, we will
    finally really bite the bullet and lay off the 25,000 that are needed
    to return to profitability.

    Which 25,000 people are those??
    
    Everyone sees deadwood everywhere other than where they sit themselves. 
    If this company lays off ("transitions", "buys out", "retires early",
    "outplaces",...) 20% of its workers, it will be a nonviable company,
    fighting a losing battle, and those of us that are left will eventually
    get laid off as well!
    
    /Charlotte

	I think .0 got flamed because of the perceived hostility towards their
current job.  A number of other folks that I've seen state that they want to 
take the package have something they would rather do and see the financial
boost as a chance to start something they could never afford to do otherwise.
Somehow, that doesn't seem to me like the "pay me to quit" attitude that
.0 has been accused of.

						--D

    I stand by my comments in .7. I'm so glad to see that there are other
    people being labelled as bozos along with me. I presume that the word
    'bozo' is an American term of endearment or respect. I'm glad you found
    my comments so helpful.
    
    Dave, bozo number 1

    At our TMP meeting, our manager said that the buyouts can't
    get better because of some legal implications?  He didn't expand
    on this..
    
    Funny how the 25,000 number keeps coming up. I saw a memo about this
    two years ago depite all the denial these days. 
    
    Buyout #1 - The Golden Parachute
    
    Buyout #2 - The Silver Parachute
    
    Next........The parachute that opens on impact.
    
    Mark

    
    
    	Hypothetical... or not:
    
    		DEC has relocated a good number of people in the last
    	6 months.  If any of those people were forced into the buyout
    	would there be any obligation to move them back???
    
    		Thought it was an interesting twist.

No time is right to be asked to leave your job.  

Even when your company is tring to be responsible by offering a monetary 
settlement to help cushion your blow.

Most people know someone who has been told their job is going away.  I'm 
related to one of those people.  The whole family was estatic when he found
another job in DEC.  (he's one of the old timers over 20 years).

Its hard when your in your 40's have a wife, kids, home and only 1 compamy
to put on your resume.  

The economy is in the "toilet" (excuse my language).

And to beat it all a last pay check no matter how big isn't much of a Christmas
present.

These in my opinion could be part of why .0 is receiving more flak than those
before him.

Also .0 your note under the circumstances rubbed me wrong to.

Janet

    I noticed a couple folks questioning my 25,000 number.  I think that is
    about the minimum necessary....and it wouldn't bring the company to
    it's knees.  Proportionately, Wang, DG, Honeyburg, IBM and many others
    have had to take that hard a hit to survive.
    
    I'll only reference a statement I heard from a DEC V.P. about nine
    months ago...."This company needs either twenty billion dollars in
    revenue, or 80,000 employees."  BTW, that's closer to a 45,000 person
    cut.  I don't think a lot of people realize how incredibly fat we've
    become.  Present efforts are just nibbling around the edges of the
    problem.

    I don't want a buyout.  I want/like working for Digital.  I have only
    been here two years after 10 years with a company that cut it's work
    force by 40%.  I will work a reduced week, extra hours, or whatever 
    I can do to keep Digital viable.  I worked hard to get this job and
    I'll do what it takes to stay.  so Ken, give me a call when you can
    and we'll talk about it.  
    
    I hear this time and time again. "Give me the buyout. Tell so and so
    I want the buyout."  
    
    Now with all the people moving around the available jobs are gone for
    some.  Where do I go?  What is my career path?  Should I get ready
    to hit the streets.  What is Santa going to do for me?  Is my resume
    up to date?  Have I got enough savvy/education/pull to get me into 
    another job I like?  Will I be working at Digital after Christmas?
    The New year?  
      

             <<< Note 1271.4 by SKIVT::HEARN "Time will tell..." >>>
    
>    		If the word "volunteer" was not used, then it may
>    	make for "complications" regarding unemployment benefits
>    	as far as the employer is concerned.  It still may, even
>    	with it's use, but do many folks test it?  I don't know.
   What complications? I know that the unemployment fees charged by the state
to an employer go up if a large number of people are laid off and sign up for
unemployment. Does this mean that people who take the TFSO are ineligible for
unemployment benefits and therefore don't raise DEC's cost of unemployment in-
surance? If so, is this specific to Vermont or is is relevant to MA and NH too?
  This is the first thing I have heard about the possibility of TFSO recipients
getting or not getting unemployment benefits. The buyout will make some people
very prosperous by Dept. of Employment Security standards but that could change
if one is out of work for 6 months.

    RE:   <<< Note 1271.37 by MILKWY::MORRISON "Bob M. FXO-1/28 228-5357" >>>
                  -< The buyout and unemployment "insurance" >-
    
>   What complications? I know that the unemployment fees charged by the state
>to an employer go up if a large number of people are laid off and sign up for
>unemployment. Does this mean that people who take the TFSO are ineligible for
>unemployment benefits and therefore don't raise DEC's cost of unemployment in-
>surance? 
    
         There is a great possibility that this is the case.  Here in
    Colorado, if there is anything at all voluntary about the severance,
    the chances that you will qualify for unemployment compensation are
    slim to none.
    
         The way things appear to me is in the following scenarios:
    
    1.  (a) You accept the package.
        (b) You get 13+ weeks of pay.
        (c) You are ineligible for unemployment compensation.
    
    2.  (a) You are placed on transition.
        (b) You are unable to find a position in the required time.
        (c) You refuse to sign the release required by the severance
            package.
        (d) You are terminated without a package.
        (e) You are then eligible for unemployment compensation, UNLESS the
            state determines that your refusal to sign the release was
            insubordination or some such disqualifying action (I would not
            imagine such a level of nit-picking would take place, but it 
            is possible).
    
         The current package does have another path between 2b and 2c. 
    That is the option of being assigned to various other jobs while
    seeking a more appropriate permanent position.  However, those taking
    that path are still subject to any further changes in future severance
    packages, a possibility being:  actual layoff.  If that occurs, then
    there is a third scenario.
                                           
    3.  (a) You are involuntarily laid-off.
        (b) You receive whatever financial package is offered (possibly
            nothing, but that would be out-of-character for DIGITAL).
        (c) You are eligible for unemployment compensation, however it
            is shifted out by the salary-time equivalent of your severance
            package plus any vacation.
    
            Example:  You receive the equivalent of 10 weeks pay as a
            severance package and another 3 weeks pay from your accumulated
            vacation time.  Unemployment compensation would not begin until
            after that 13 weeks has elapsed (with a possible additional
            NULL week added to that).
    
         DISCLAIMER:  These scenarios were formulated based on known rules
    of Colorado Unemployment qualifications.  They may have no basis in
    reality for other locations.
    
                                        Greg
         

    Most unemployment compensation awards from state Govt's are no more
    than $250 per week for 26 weeks.  Which during that time, after a two
    week waiting period, your required to make a minimum number of
    applications for employment per week.  In addition, unemployment
    compensation is taxable income which is reported on form 1099 to the
    IRS and your liable for taxes since states don't routinely deduct
    withholding.
    
    Also, you can't collect unemployment until after you've spent the
    same amount of time out of work that your company has given you in a 
    severance package.

    re: .38 (3c) and .39
    
    That is right.  It happened to my husband, who's company panicked 
    during the last oil crisis.  He was given 4 weeks severance pay in 
    the same 1-week paycheck for the last week of work.  But instead of 
    taking the 5 week equivalent of I.R.S. and F.I.C.A. taxes out as 
    though it were received each week, they deducted an amount from a 
    chart as though all 5 weeks were earned in ONE !!!  Wow; did that 
    put him in a high bracket .... and he lost $400 in take-home pay 
    over what he would have received one-week-at-a-time. 
    
    But the state unemployment division didn't see it that way.  They 
    delayed giving him any benefits until three weeks after the 5 weeks 
    were up.  (The first week is always the waiting week with no benefits,
    and you get a benefit for the 2nd week but wait an additional week for
    that.)  
    
    (Since he still couldn't find a job it was easier for him to move back 
    to Vermont with me when I was hired here.  And it all turned out okay 
    for both, because eventually he was hired by Digital and we both feel 
    very fortunate to be working here.)