Conference 7.286::digital

    I feel funny about attending "Christmas" or "holiday" parties (at the
    same time of year and with the same decorations, etc.) on company time,
    and I bet a lot of other Jewish people feel uncomfortable about this
    also (I can't speak for religious groups other than my own). 
    Particularly when these things happen during normal business hours the
    situation is awkward.  I don't normally celebrate other people's
    religious holidays, any more than people who celebrate Christmas would
    be likely to celebrate Yom Kippur, so I would feel a lot more
    comfortable about the whole issue if the party were after working
    hours, so I could slip out without feeling like a fifth wheel.  I get
    subjected to Christmas a lot this time of year anyhow: I ducked into a
    store to buy some underwear on Saturday (November 3rd!) and the store
    was full of Christmas trees, with Christmas music playing on the Muzak
    and the whole bit - a very uncomfortable feeling.
    
    /Charlotte

    I don't mind celebrating Christmas.
    
    I am not a Christian.
    
    

    
    Christmas, a religous holiday? HA!
    
    I don't think Christ had any of the following,
    
    	Christmas Tree
    	Santa Claus
    	Raindeer
    	Egg Nog
    	or any of the other trappings which normally adore the holiday.
    
    so how can you call it a religous holiday?  I don't understand how
    anyone can be offended by such things that have no religous meaning.
    
    If you get invited to a 'Christmas Party', go, have a good time. 
    That's what it's there for!  I would imagine that the number of 
    Christians who actually celebrate the religous part is very small.
    Who has time to go to church, there is so much shopping to do!

    In MET, I think we had a Christmas Party during off hours.  I missed it
    last year because my wife was having a baby (or was just coming home
    from the hospital).  We also had an informal "eat-in" on the last day
    before Christmas vacation, where people brought baked goods and I think
    some main dishes for a pot luck luncheon.  These things were for the
    most part called "Holiday <mumble>", and I had the impression that they
    were voluntary, inclusive, and the planners made a concious effort to
    avoid "offensive" content.
    
    Last year, a bunch of people who like singing also got together to
    rehease, calling ourselves something like the "MET Holiday Singers." 
    We rehearsed a bunch of Christmas carols, Hannukah songs, and secular
    holiday songs ("White Christmas," "Rudolph," "Jingle Bells," etc.).
    
    We sang in a variety of settings.  Again, I was down at the hospital or
    sleeping, so I only got to rehearse.  But that was fun.  This also was
    intended as an inclusive, nonintrusive, activity.  We did our best to
    provide a sampling of songs from a number of traditions.  The hope was
    that anyone would feel comfortable attending, and that anyone would also
    feel comfortble ignoring the whole thing (no mandatory attendance or
    peer pressure).

    I didn't personally hear any negative feedback about these activities.
    I would hope that people would feel free to talk to the organizers, and
    find ways to make these events more inclusive, accessible, ignorable,
    etc.

This is all about having office parties at Xmas time right?  When did you
last have an office party of any sort....never mind at Xmas! 

Let's not get the two mixed up.  Let's have a party before we go away on
the Xmas break simply because we want to:

	- all get together, have a drink, lose a few of those inhibitions...
	- all talk about what we're doing...where we're going...
	- all use the opportunity to look back on the trials, tribulations,
	   and occasional triumphs of the year that has been...
	- and look ahead to the year that will be.... what we can be
	  optimistic about...and what we can't...
	- tell our friends, our colleagues, and our managers what we
	  got...and didn't get from them for Xmas...

Then...let's wend our merry way home (or back to the workstation) and do
whatever we do when Xmas comes along.  When we all meet again...we will
have a benchmark....we will remember being with each other as we approached
a(nother) time of transition.  Just as we did with our other families!

Mart
 

	This general topic has also been talked about in topics 64 and 972.
	There is a lot of discussion in 972.

			Alfred

	At risk of continuing yet another DEC Christmas party discussion
    here, I'd like to comment on a couple of things:

	First of all, I agree that while the name Christmas (= "Christ" +
    "mass" - "s") is an extremely Christian sounding event, I also agree
    that Santa Claus, "Christmas trees" (despite the name), Reindeer,
    candy-canes, and all that have absolutely nothing to do with Jesus
    Christ and Christianity (other than occuring at the same time of
    the year in North America).

	The fact is that over the years, the religious rituals and dogma
    surrounding the birth of Christ have been merged with pre-existing
    Germanic/Celtic/Pagan rites of winter such that they now seem to occur
    as a single, concerted event.  The same thing has happened to the ancient
    pagan Spring Fertility rites (The Easter Bunny coincidently delivers
    eggs the same day that Christ rose from the tomb), as well as a few
    other, somewhat more obscure holidays (Halloween = Last Souls Day, etc.).

	Have you ever stopped to wonder at how seemingly out of place those
    scantily-clad figures in those manger scenes look next to the snowy,
    winter scenery found in most "Christmas" decorative displays?  How
    about those bright yellow and pink Easter bunnies who prance about
    on the same day that Christ's spirit rose from the tomb?  It must be
    somewhat mind-boggling for youngsters to be expected to sort it all out.

	Nevertheless, there are certain yearly events which have always
    been celebrated, and undoubtedly always will be (in one form or another).
    With something like ten different religions and cultures celebrating
    some sort of virgin birth on or around the latter half of December each
    year (and please don't ask me to recite all ten without my "History of
    the World's Religions" text handy), would it make sense to simply adopt
    the somewhat more generic practice of holding "Xmas" parties instead
    of "Christmas" parties, with "Xmas" trees instead of "Christmas" trees,
    etc.?  Furthermore, I suggest that anyone placing little Jesus out in
    manger this year should please dress him warmly (a down jacket and wool
    pants would be good for starters ;^).

				   -davo

    .0....you must have some very, very strange management whereever you
    are.  What did they do....overdose on "Valuing Differences" (Gag)!!
    

Re:   <<< Note 1266.7 by BIGJOE::DMCLURE >>>

I don't think changing "Christmas" to "Xmas" would make a difference to me.
The first two Greek letters in the word "Christ" are Chi (looks like an
"X") and Rho (looks like a "P") and the most common symbol for Christ is
the chi and rho superimposed.  I have never read it, but, have always
assumed that the X in Xmas stood for the chi in "Christ".

FWIW.

    For the past eight years or so, the public school's in this part of 
    California have called their Christmas break "Winter break". I see
    as much Christ in Christmas as I see Winter in California.
    
    Frank

>I have never read it, but, have always
>assumed that the X in Xmas stood for the chi in "Christ".
    
    You are correct. This usage is 100s of years old BTW.
    
    		Alfred

    Re: The "X" in Xmas


    The  assumption  my mother passed on to me is  that the "X" in Xmas is
representative  of the  cross  upon  which  He  died.  I personally, based
on this  assumption,  am revolted  by the  usage  of this  abbreviation to
the point where, if there is any viable alternative,  I will not patronize
an establishment, event, etc. etc. using it (promotionally for example; as
in "Xmas Sale").

JMHO - Joe Whittemore   From where the Westfield
uyup                         Meets the Westfield
s mi                            By the Westfield
t bn                               In Huntington (MA)
  li
  eo
   n

Post Script; The only place you'll ever find Christ in Christmas is within
              yourself.

Re .10

I was always told that P with the X superimposed stood for Pax or
Latin for peace. Interesting to learn that X stood for Christ.

cal

re: .13,

> Re: The "X" in Xmas
>    The  assumption  my mother passed on to me is  that the "X" in Xmas is
>representative  of the  cross  upon  which  He  died.

	Well, this assumption has crossed my mind a few times as well,
    but it doesn't really make sense if you think about it: after all,
    Christmas is supposedly Christ's birthday, not his deathday.

	In any case, I suppose "Xmas" isn't far enough removed from
    the religious aspect of the winter holiday season to be comfortable.
    The advantage of "Xmas" however, is that it is short and to the point.
    Therefore, I propose we add yet another short and sweet acronym to
    our vocabulary that represents our generic winter holiday; something
    even shorter and sweeter than "Xmas" (three letters or less), so as
    to be considered even more advantageous and appealing to use...

	Why not just use the latin word for peace that Cal mentioned in
    reply .14 ("Pax")?  It's even shorter, and sweeter than "Xmas", and
    it contains no hidden "cross"-references (no pun intended).  After
    all, it is generally considered a very peaceful day anyway, and I
    don't recall a designated Peace holiday anyway.  So, how about Pax?

				   -davo

Well, if we're going to have Christmas parties, we ought to have them on
one of the twelve days of Christmas, rather than during the penitential
season of Advent.

Can't be done. I'm not at work for the 12 days of Christmas, and
I object religiously to parties to which I am not invited!

    A nice discussion of the "X" in Xmas, but...
    
    Is this acceptable in DEC:
    
    A "Christmas" party.  After hours. Including the three D's (Dinner,
    Dancing, and Door prizes). Using branch "party funds".
    
    If not, what about the same thing but called a "Holiday" party and held
    very near to December 25?
    
    Looking for (all-inclusive) ideas for next year.
    Brad
    
    P.S. What does your office do?

    I don't know about where YOU work, but this building is CLOSED on
    Christmas day - I suppose I could come into work if I really wanted to,
    and didn't mind working wth most of the lights off (they are on a timer
    system - no light switches) and no heat.  I don't see much point,
    especially since the rest of the family also has the day off.  In fact,
    given that most of the folks who work here (HLO) have been with the
    compnay for many years and so get lots of vacation time, the week
    between Christmas and New Year's is usually a silly time to come to
    work, since almost everyone has taken off for vacation.  It's fine if
    you are in the midst of heavy coding or debugging, but if you need to
    consult your users for what their exact needs are, forget it - none of
    them are here!  Last year, that week I was one of THREE people in the
    CAD group at work, out of 92.  It's real depressing!  They even close
    the cafeteria (I don't eat there anyhow, though); not enough folks
    around to bother to run it.
    
    What a lot of Jewish people do is volunteer at one of the local
    shelters/soup kitchens to work on Christmas day so that people who
    celebrate the holiday can take the day off to go to church with their
    families.  (When I was a kid, everybody volunteered at the local
    hospital instead.  I guess they don't need "candy-stripers" anymore?)
    
    
    /Charlotte

>    It's interesting that all the objectors to "Xmas" still take the days
>    off.

I'd gladly trade Christmas (when Christians customarily don't work) for
the thirteen days a year when my religion *requires* me to do no work.
As it is, I have to use up all my vacation.

    re .22.  I agree.  As a christian who used to work with a Rabbi, I
    could not understand or agree with the policy requiring jewish
    people to take vacation during their holy days.  
    
      

Why not?  The policy requires Christians to take vacation on all Christian
holidays except Christmas.

And DEC couldn't make Christmas a work day if they wanted to; it is law in
most states that it be a day off.

/john

Hey, I don't mind taking a few vacation days off for religious reasons so
as long as you give me 4/5 weeks of vacation instead of 2/3.

    re .24
    
>The policy requires Christians to take vacation on all Christian
>holidays except Christmas.
    
    Whose policy is this, please?  I get Good Friday and Easter Monday as
    paid holidays, as well as Christmas Day.

>> Why not?  The policy requires Christians to take vacation on all Christian
>> holidays except Christmas.

Does this mean we get another holiday next year to be off on Good Friday?  ;-)

>> And DEC couldn't make Christmas a work day if they wanted to; it is law in
>> most states that it be a day off.

If this was true, you wouldn't have any police officers, hospital employees,
fire fighters, snow removal personnel, etc. covering their shifts.  Alot goes 
on behind the scenes that most people aren't aware of (or don't think about).  

Judy

    I ain't a christian.  I want the 25th December as a holiday.  I also
    want the 26th December but this silly country doesn't recognize it.
    Now, could the rest of you please just let me have a day or two off?
    Please?
    
    --
    
    This isn't anything to do with religion that I can see.  Countries
    seem to have public holidays.  They either occur on particular dates
    or there's some funny algorithm (see "Easter") for deriving them.
    Once you've set a holiday, it's tough to take it away again without
    annoying everyone.  The winter public holiday is Dec 25th, mainly
    because it's been that way for a long time, I expect.  I don't care
    what you call it.
    
    

    State and religion are separate, right?. Work and religion should be the
    same!. You will notice that DEC does not tell you what to do on the
    25th of Dec.
    
    I value differences much more than the irritations that they can
    incur. We would all have much better attitudes if we had more breaks.
    It would be better to campaign for all the Holidays that the Govt.
    has designated. We don't get them. Why?.
    
    I want to have MLK's Birthday but I have to take it as a vacation
    day. Then all the phone calls from the folks that did not take
    it are waiting for me when I get back.
    
    It is not a question of religion but much more a question of
    celebration. It is tough in DEC right now to "Party" but if, as
    an animal" we do not, then we become, like many in this file, a
    pretty grumpy group of gremlins.
    
    I don't care why we get a Holiday!. I care that we all get the same
    amount. We clearly need it.
    
    regards
    
    Eric.
    

                                                                      
    

    FWIW, there is a lot of controversy over celebration of Christmas as
    far as the day goes.  But, remember that the choice of December 25th is
    because this is when PAGAN celebrations were held.  So, instead of
    bashing CHRISTIANS for the choice of the day ...    :)
    
    
    Steve

>>The policy requires Christians to take vacation on all Christian
>>holidays except Christmas.
>    
>    Whose policy is this, please?  I get Good Friday and Easter Monday as
>    paid holidays, as well as Christmas Day.

You get those days because your country's government tells DEC to give you
those days.  If you were working for DEC in a country where Jewish holidays
were days on which work was prohibited, you would get those days off instead
of Christian holidays.

>>> And DEC couldn't make Christmas a work day if they wanted to; it is law in
>>> most states that it be a day off.
>
>If this was true, you wouldn't have any police officers, hospital employees,
>fire fighters, snow removal personnel, etc. covering their shifts.  Alot goes 
>on behind the scenes that most people aren't aware of (or don't think about).  

This is true.  However, there are exceptions for certain professions, and not
for others.  For example, in Massachusetts, Tower Records wanted to be open on
Christmas Day, but they were told in no uncertain terms that the police would
close their doors.

As for DEC having all the public holidays -- DEC does in most countries.  But
in the U.S., with a few exceptions, public holidays are merely those days on
which the directors of the public service organizations (a.k.a. State and
Federal legislatures) have decided to give public employees days off.  Your
elected officials have decided that you, as a taxpayer, will pay the salaries
of public employees on those days.

U.S. law does not permit the government to tell companies that they must
provide ANY paid holidays or ANY paid vacation.  Though they tell DEC that
work may not go on on the 25th of December, they do not tell DEC that DEC
has to pay anyone for not being at work on that day.  There are workers in
the U.S. who are only paid when they are at work, and receive no pay for
holidays or vacation time.

The directors of DEC have decided that U.S. employees shall have ten days
per year on which they need not come to work but will still be paid, and
that some of those days will be set to coincide with some of the U.S. or
local public holidays.

The directors of DEC have also decided that U.S. employees shall have less
paid vacation than in any other country (except maybe in the Far East).

Remember that these decisions are seen on Wall Street to affect our
profitability and the price of our stock.  If you want more holidays or
more vacation time, you can go to another company or another country.
With the current state of things at DEC, DEC will wave goodbye at the shore.

/john

>U.S. law does not permit the government to tell companies that they must
>provide ANY paid holidays or ANY paid vacation.  Though they tell DEC that
>work may not go on on the 25th of December, they do not tell DEC that DEC
>has to pay anyone for not being at work on that day.

I came to work on December 25, 1988.  The FBI did not meet me at the door.
As far as I know, no DEC employees were arrested for letting me come to work.

    Re: .26
    
>    Whose policy is this, please?  I get Good Friday and Easter Monday as
>    paid holidays, as well as Christmas Day.
    
    As you might have guessed from other replies, you (in the U.K. I
    presume) get those off because they are public holidays rather than
    because they happen to be religious ones.
    
    Massachussetts employees get Patriot's Day off for the same reason. 
    The rest of U.S. employees (I think this applies to N.H. also?) get a
    "choice holiday" instead.
    
    I can see nothing in Digital holidays which ties to any particular
    religious affiliation.
    
    -  David

    RE: Religious holidays...

    I know several people in DEC that are practicing their Jewish religion.
    On Yom Kippur, they take the day off, and are never charged with a
    vacation/personal day.

    I think this falls under the valuing-differences umbrella...
    
    I've never been invited to a Jewish holiday party, but if I was, I'd
    go, and not make a big fuss about it.
    
    

    Weither or not an employee gets paid for taking a non DEC holiday is up
    to that employees manager and how he/she accounts for it on the books
    (read Time Card). This was practiced long before the buzz word of
    "valueing differences" was ever thought of.
    
    Someone-who-has-been-around-for-awhile
    
    Regards
    AL ROOT
    

        A former DECie, now SciFi writer, James P. Hogan suggested that
        December 25th may be celebrated as Issac Newton's birthday and
        call it - Merry Gravimas.
        
        Of course one does have to believe in gravity.
        
        Bob

>I came to work on December 25, 1988.  The FBI did not meet me at the door.
>As far as I know, no DEC employees were arrested for letting me come to work.

Don't be a bozo.

One person (or two dozen) can get away with it.

You know as well as I do that in some states, Massachusetts, for example, if
DEC expected most employees to be at work on the 25th of December, legal acton
would ensue.

/john

re .37:

I point out that your statement was imprecise, and you call me a bozo?

If DEC can't require employees in Massachusetts to work on 25-Dec, what
would they do if no security guards volunteered to work?

>If DEC can't require employees in Massachusetts to work on 25-Dec, what
>would they do if no security guards volunteered to work?

I imagine that they'd have to close the place.  I also imagine that the
security guards are compensated for having to work on the 25th and I also
imagine that they don't have that hard of a time finding people to work
anyway.  Given a large enough group of people, you can always find someone
who's willing to work on any day.

As someone who's worked on holidays past...

re .37:

> I point out that your statement was imprecise, and you call me a bozo?

	You have to understand something about John Covert.  You see,
    John is almost *never* wrong about anything in notes.  In fact, you're
    correction to his information given here could be the first time John
    has ever been successfully corrected in this notesfile - ever!

	I imagine the "Ripley's Believe It Or Not" folks will eventually
    be calling for interviews...

				    -davo

p.s.	Sorry if this rubs salt into the wound John, but you have to admit
	that this is a historical momment...  ;^)

    re .33:
    
    not really David. Unlike America, Britain has a State Religion (the
    Church of England) and Good Friday is a *religious* holiday honoured by
    the state, not a state holiday.
    
    /. Ian .\

Repeat after me:

In most states

	1. Work may not go on at DEC on Christmas Day,
and	2. DEC may not legally be open for business on Christmas Day.

Only "necessary" work (such as security guards) is a permitted exception.

Anyone else who goes to work may or may not be violating the law, depending
on the state.

If DEC expected all (or even most) employees to come to work on Christmas
Day, legal action against DEC would certainly result in some states.

Thus DEC must make Christmas Day a holiday.

/john

    
    RE: 43
    
    Well John, I was waiting to see the source of your comment and wasn't
    supprised to see the ole Blue Law surface. Now, since you did say
    "...most states..." I'll bet you can quote the other twentyfive states
    with Blue Laws. Right?  No, not even a really sharp lawyer could. Seems
    that "...most states..." don't have Blue Laws for Sundays and/or holidays.
    
    Heck, Mass still has the general law on the books specifying the fine
    for a man NOT carrying a firearm to church on Sunday. 
    
    In reality, I spent 19 years carrying a toolbag before I moved into a
    desk job and there were  seven Christmas holidays I spent on the clock.
    Two of those since I've been at Digital. 
    
    No one is getting fined or tossed in jail for working on Christmas any
    more than fined for not carrying a rifle to church this coming Sunday.
    And THAT is true in MOST states.
    
    J.B.

>    No one is getting fined or tossed in jail for working on Christmas any
>    more than fined for not carrying a rifle to church this coming Sunday.
>    And THAT is true in MOST states.

What is the problem here?  I never said that an individual would be fined
for working on Christmas Day; I said that DEC would be fined if DEC did not
close the company for business on Christmas Day.

In Mass. this is the law, and it is enforced.  Read the law.  Read the papers.

Tower Records is open 365 days a year in every location in the U.S. except
Boston, where they were told in no uncertain terms that the police would
enforce the law should they open.

The police would close DEC if DEC didn't close on its own.

OK?

    When was the last time you looked at the service contracts we sell to
    customers? We sell holiday coverage to our customers. Thats can work
    out to be 7X5, 7X7 or any other combination you want including holidays
    and Dec 25th. No one gets fired or fined including DEC. Even though
    most of the people get the day off some people work and since the
    people work for DEC they are DEC in the eyes of the law. This is the
    same way all thing DEC people do when dealing with customers or making
    commitments to customers or other companies on DEC behalf. If you
    commit to a customer DEC will do something for you even though you
    didn't get permission from your boss then since you work for DEC then
    DEC committed to the customer. No different then when you work on
    holidays and are paid for it then DEC works on holidays. No one or DEC
    gets fined for these people working on holidays and the states know we
    have people working on holidays. Even the IRS knows we have people
    working on holidays and could care less as long as they get their fair
    cut of your paycheck.
    
    Regards
    AL ROOT
    

re .46

Read what I'm saying, please.

The law provides exemptions for necessary services.

The law requires normal business to cease.

    WHY would any State Government presume to say what days a business
    could or could not conduct business if it chose to do so, in these
    times?
    
    It is an absolute mystery to me why the people of this state allow the
    government of this state to interfere so prfoundly in their lives.
    
    tony

It's known as 'protection of the employee'.  It's an effective, although
simple-minded, way of protecting people from employers who would otherwise
demand that an employee work on Christmas day, with firing as the
alternative.  

Now, this might not be appropriate for salaried DEC employees, but
that doesn't mean it's not appropriate for other people in other jobs.

(Maybe the law could say "no employee forced to work...", instead
 of "business cannot be open...", but that's more difficult to
 unambiguously detect.)

I don't call this 'interfering in my life'.  I call this 'placing
limits on what employers can reasonably demand of employees'.

>I don't call this 'interfering in my life'.  I call this 'placing
>limits on what employers can reasonably demand of employees'.

Then again it IS interfering in your life if you are an employer who would
like to force your employees to work on Christmas and/or other holidays.

- George

    RE: Christmas Party's in the field offices
    
    Can't say for all field offices, but for the Houston Office(s), there
    was a Christmas Party, that was $20.00 per couple. 
    
    Other holiday activites included a turkey dinner that we also had to pay
    for ($6.00) at Thanksgiving time.
    
    g

    re: .48
    
    Remember that Massachusetts was founded by religious zealots who wanted
    to establish a society in which _their_ ideas of proper conduct would
    be required.  Over the years a lot of these laws have been repealed,
    but evidently not all of them.
        John Sauter

                      <<< Note 1266.50 by WMOIS::FULTI >>>

>Then again it IS interfering in your life if you are an employer who would
>like to force your employees to work on Christmas and/or other holidays.

   Sure. And laws against murder are a severe interference with the
   personal freedom of murderers. Laws against embezzlement, bank
   robbery, insider trading, riot are a severe interference with the
   freedom of . . . 

   Many laws restrict people's 'freedom'. One hopes that in a
   democratic society the law only imposes restrictions that people in
   general think are acceptable. Sure, there's a great big grey area
   of disagreement - sometimes restrictive laws are repealed -
   sometimes new restrictions are imposed. But there's nothing wrong
   with the idea of restriction in itself - that's what laws are for.

   Marge