Conference 7.286::digital

    re .0

    Vincent,

    I am sorry indeed to hear that you are leaving. I had always wanted a
    good excuse to read the foundation trilogy -- I've read sci-fi on and
    off for a lot of years, but never Asimov. And now that I'll read it, I
    won't be able to discuss it with you. Perhaps some others might have
    comments about your metaphor.

    I'm intrigued by the idea of Asimov as a corporate consultant! He'd
    certainly bring a fresh view to the table!

    Though, on reflection, I don't think people are necessarily as
    close-minded as they sometimes sound -- they're only defensive and
    protective of DEC.

    Best wishes for success,
    Peters

Re: "Foundation and Empire" and "Second Foundation"

	So, um, whose playing the part of the "Mule" at DEC these days?  ;-)

>	So, um, whose playing the part of the "Mule" at DEC these days?  ;-)
    
    	SUN :-)

           <<< Note 1244.3 by CVG::THOMPSON "Aut vincere aut mori" >>>
                     -< some company from the left coast >-

>	So, um, whose playing the part of the "Mule" at DEC these days?  ;-)
    
    	SUN :-)

    RE: .4 The Foundation series of books is a "future history". In this
    history a scientist has prepared a theory that predicts in general
    terms the next 1000 or so years. The Mule is a character who does not
    fit the theory and so upsets the balance of things that it appears to
    render the predictions relating to the time after his appearance as
    no longer valid. In this note one assumes the mule represents the
    unplanned unexpected that destroys Digital's plans for the future.
    Of course analogies can only be taken so far.

    		Alfred

The Foundation trilogy also has a parallel to Japan's business policies.

I the book, the Foundation uses its advanced technology to gain control of 
other planets. At first, a priesthood is indoctrinated to run the technology;
this priesthood is under direct control of the Foundation. But many planets
would not accept this; they wanted the technology without restriction.

Eventually, the Foundation accepts this, selling their technology without
restrictions, because they realize that no buyer could ever successfully
rebel against the Foundation's control. Why? Once the buyer's INDUSTRY was
dependent on their technology, cutting off additional supplies of spare parts,
etc., would destroy the economy of any rebel worlds. Color TV's and other
luxuries would be missed, but people are willing to undergo hardship for war.
Without industry, no war could be fought.

Has anyone noticed how US industry is becoming dependent on the Japanese?
If they were to attack us again (I doubt that they would, though), how long
could we last? We outproduced them in WWII.

Of course, this situation is changing. Other countries are building their own
technology base, like Korea and Singapore. And we don't know what will happen
in Europe. (Hmmm... Japan and Germany...)

>      <<< Note 1244.6 by ROYALT::KOVNER "Everything you know is wrong!" >>>
>                         -< an international parallel >-


Try substituting "country"  for planet and "oil" for technology!!!!!!!!



>I the book, the Foundation uses its OIL to gain control of 
>other COUNTRIES At first, a priesthood is indoctrinated to run the OIL 
>this priesthood is under direct control of the Foundation. But many COUNTIRES
>would not accept this; they wanted the OIL without restriction.
>
>Eventually, the Foundation accepts this, selling their OIL without
>restrictions, because they realize that no buyer could ever successfully
>rebel against the Foundation's control. Why? Once the buyer's INDUSTRY was
>dependent on their OIL cutting off additional supplies of spare parts,
>etc., would destroy the economy of any rebel worlds. Color TV's and other
>luxuries would be missed, but people are willing to undergo hardship for war.
>Without industry, no war could be fought.

    .1 thanks Peters
       I would be glad to talk about Asimov with you and even if I left you may
       always use the Science-fiction conference where are a lot of Mr Asimov
       readers.
    
    .others and .5 Alfred
    	Yes the Mule didn't fit into the 'Pre-History' formula and it has
    	been a chance... In fact he did not have to fit in because this 
    	formula is based on 'the rule of great massa' in which individual
    	doesn't take part. If you have a very great number of individual 
    	in your sample then the action or characteristic of only one has 
    	(or must not have) no effect on the 'average reaction' of the
    	whole. 
    	In the case of the 'Mule' (whose individual 'Power' was far greater
    	than the most 'powerfull' individual) You observe then a sharp ramp
    	up in the curve of the 'average' but this is ,soon or later, 
    	absorbed by the 'mass'. This leads to a side effect -> the 'mass'
    	wake up for moment and tries to keep the curve in the 'average'!
    	This is why I said that the Mule was a chance , He was the sparkle
    	to prevent the inertia effect.
    
    .2 .3
        You don't have to look outside for a Mule and Even he is outside
    	he is not necessarily an Enemy.
    
    perhaps more comment to come,regards		Vincent

    Actually, Digital is not a total unknown for Asimov.
    I had the pleasure of giving him and his son a tour
    of Digital some years ago.  At the time he seemed to be
    very modest saying that he understood very little about
    computer technology.
    
    Actually, he is probably one of the most perceptive, knowlegeable
    and brilliant people alive.  I have read that he writes books
    on scientific topics on which he has very little training.  
    Researchers check what he has written for correctness and very
    seldom find errors.   He just seems to intuitively understand 
    how things work - chemistry, physics, society... 
    
    d 

    re: .5 * .8
    
    Only on the surface did the "mule" appear to be a non-planned factor. 
    Actually the "second foundation" psycho-historians were in control all
    the time.  There were "third-order" equations not only "allowing for"
    but actually "requiring" this "crisis" in order to bootrap the
    foundation foward and shorten the "million" years of anarchy and
    barbarism that would follow the collapse of the first empire.
    
    SUN - possible, but remember that the mule as an "internal" factor as
    were ALL of the important "crisis'es" that Hari Seldon anticipated in
    his great formula.  More probable Grainger, Osterhoff, Maybe Shu or
    Ferry fit the role better?
    
    More interestingly - WHERE is the second DIGITAL foundation?  Which end
    of the galacy??  Is it OSI land, UNIXville or WORKstation Alpha????
    
    
    Arthur C. Clarke's three laws:
    
    The perversity of the universe attains maximum.
    
    Everything is possible in an infintely complex environment.
    
    Any sufficiently advanced society is indistinquishable from magic.
    
    TJB

    Re: .11
    
    Yes if we were organize in 'community' and had some power on the
    decision makers
    
    No because we even do not have any 'thinking architecture' and
    'philosophy leader'
    
    
    I would say instead that we are the 'rebel-side' of the First One.
    I mean that we are like the persons convinced by the Seldon Theory but
    who think that the present leader(s) has (ve) forgot the original
    goal of this Theory and who are only looking at their own benefit of
    the situation.
    
    Vincent

I have read a fair bit of Dr. Asimov's works, both fiction and non-fiction,
as well as his autobiography and monthly columns and editorials.  Asimov is
indeed very intelligent and is a quick learner, plus he has the ability to
explain complicated things in an entertaining and understandable fashion.

But I would not consider him particularly sensitive, nor do I see in him any
of the qualities that would make a good business consultant.  And I think
he would agree.

As for the Foundation series, Asimov himself will tell you that all he did
was take Gibbons' "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" and set it in
outer space, with an ample supply of ideas and concepts from Astounding
editor John W. Campbell.  He wrote the original series of novellas in the
1950s - the recent additions to the series were primarily a result of
constant badgering by the public for "more of the same", and the results
show it, as do the continuing stream of inane and repetitious "George and
Azazel" stories that he spits out every couple of months for the magazine
which bears his name.

There may indeed be some lessons to be learned from the Foundation stories.
But that does not imply that Asimov would be able to much less want to do
any kind of analysis for Digital.  He is simply not that sort of a person.
(Besides, he was already a spokesman for Tandy, since they gave him a
word processor or two!)

					Steve

    Now that all these "Asimovians" are all in one place, 
    perhaps someone could recommend the BEST way to read
    the "double trilogy".  Is it best to read it in the order
    it came out or in "future histoical" order?
    
    I've read all six of the books, so I should know better,
    but honestly I can't keep them all straight in my mind
    and it's been sometime since I traveled the original
    trilogy.
    
    RLC