Conference 7.286::digital

re: .0

Part of the problem is that you are going one-way instead of round-trip.
Also, how far in advance did you purchase the ticket?

Bob

Also, what other travel constraints are you bound to?
Unrestricted (exchangeable, fully refundable) tickets cost more.
If you can accept firm travel dates with a penalty for change,
tell your travel agent, and perhaps you can get the serious discounts
you see in the full page newspaper ads.

RE. 0

When you ask corporate travel to make flight reservations for you, they will 
typically get you an unrestricted ticket.  Unrestricted tickets offer you the
most flexibility but are the most expensive, especially if you purchase them 
only a few days in advance.  Corporate will try to find you the cheapest fare
possible but they usually don't vary that much from carrier to carrier. 

The onus is really on the employee to save DEC money on travel by making 
arrangements as far in advance as possible, telling travel that you want
the cheapest rate available for a certain level of flexibility, not locking 
travel into one certain airline, being flexible on flight times, etc...

Individual employees can do a lot to save the company money. Especally when it
comes to making travel arrangements.

	I would agree with .2 that understanding the rate structure of the
	airline industry is like following a thought pattern through the 
	brain, however...

	Several weeks ago I traveled from Atlanta to San Francisco, round trip,
	booked in advance, left on a weekend for corporate training (special
	discounts apply here).  My coach airfare was $740.00 ... what a bargain!

	While killing 4 1/2 hours I started to read one of the magazines in the
	seat pocket in front of me, "Delta Dream Vacations".  Well there it was
	4 days and 3 nights in a decent San Francisco hotel, airport transfers
	and round trip airfare, from Atlanta $639.00 inclusive.

	Like Kathy (.0) I wonder also if Digital is taking it on the chin. There
	hasn't been one trip I've booked that doesn't appear as though we could
	have done better outside of corporate travel. My only assumption (and
	hope) is that there is something happening behind the scene that makes
	it advantageous for Digital to do this.


	-jv

>Individual employees can do a lot to save the company money. Especally when it
>comes to making travel arrangements.


I fully agree with this statement.  Not having done much business travel, my
experience is limited.  However, I was able to cut the cost of tickets to
Colorado by nearly half just by rejecting the first ticket and doing some
calling of airlines on my own.

The travel department, I'm sure, is very overworked, as we all are, so probably
doesn't have the time to do as much pushing back as we, as individual travelers,
can do.

Betty

Remember, corporate travel is AMEX, and they get a commission based on the
price of the ticket.

It is in their interests to make management believe they're doing a good
job, so the contract gets renewed, but to maximize their own profits...

If you really want to save the company money on travel, book at least a
month in advance, book directly with the airline, and then have corporate
travel write the ticket at the price you and the airline agreed upon.

And always tell them "I was quoted $nnn, but see if you can get a better
fare."  They rarely do, but it's always worth letting someone else try.

/john

    
    
      I thought the whole reason for the Mandatory use of AMEX for
    travel arrangements was to guarantee the lowest fare?
    
      While the employee may be able to initiate some cost savings,
    the AMEX people are the "Professionals", who are familiar with
    the day to day airline fare gimmicks.  - they should be able
    to (And required to) recommend alternate arrangements which 
    could save money.  (Some times the fare reduction for staying
    an extra day can exceed the extra lodging costs.)  
    
      I have yet to see AMEX provide DEC with the quality of service
    that I've gotten from other agents when booking private vacation
    travel...
    
    
    						-al
    

    
    Just A thought!!!!
    
    How much does AMEX spend on Digital systems each year???
    
    Not as much as they spend with IBM I warrant,
    
    Why don't we start only dealing with people who use DEC kit????
    
    In the UK we lease cars through HERTZ, a huge IBM user, We are lining
    IBM's pockets!!!!
    
    What are other people thoughts on this!!

	we just signed a multi-million $$$ EIS fixed price project with AMEX's
Vacation Division, and one of the things that broke loose a log-jam of internal
AMEX politicing was a visit by a senior DEC (unknown) VP to a senior AMEX VP
with a copy of the bill AMEX gave us last year!  We were under contract within
a month!

	We are learning to play the game!

>Why don't we start only dealing with people who use DEC kit????

In the U.S., this is an illegal reciprocal buying agreement, prohibited
by the Uniform Commercial Code.

/john

    John,
    
    	Obviously it is against the law. However, how about presenting
    last year's bill and a Digital created copy which has $0.00 on it.
    The idea is to get their attention. I fully support only dealing
    with vendors who deal with us. Our business should be spread to
    reflect the money we spend vs the money they spend (up a certain
    degree.

    Regarding the original topic:
    
    I am a heavy traveler. I probably fly an average of once a week, and I
    have flown a quarter of a million miles on Delta alone in the last two
    years. AMEX has been a real plus for me because of their after hours
    '800' hotline, their extensive traveller profiles online, and the very
    efficient service I have received.
    
    In most cases, I have an unrestricted ticket. This is because, in
    dealing with customers, I find that I change my flights in the middle
    of a trip about 40% of the time. Digital would get burned big time if I
    had used a restricted ticket. If I have a 'cast in stone' trip a months
    out (less than 5% of my trips qualify) I would definitely get a
    restricted ticket to save money.
    
    Also, AMEX frequently gets hotel rates that beat DEC's corporate rate,
    and they will always quote the lower rate. 
    
    On the down side, I have been double-billed for tickets before, and I
    didn't receive credit for returned tickets a few times, but there
    corporate billing statement even includes the airline ticket number, as
    well as the destinations on the ticket, so auditing is very easy.
    
    Overall, they have been the most professional and efficient business
    travel service I've ever used. They'll call you up to tell you they've
    found cheaper rates sometimes, and they always have your current
    itinerary on the computer so little time is wasted looking for your
    record. Around here, most of the agents recognize you by name very
    quickly.
    
    
    Randy
    

    When I was booking my vacation air travel this spring, I first called
    the airline that I am a frequent flier on.  They quoted me a fare of
    $239.00 round trip, 7-day advance purchase no refund.  They also said
    that I had better book now, or else....
    
    The next day I called AMEX Travel Management, and for the exact same
    flights the price was $198.00 round trip etc...
    
    KO

    
    
      Hmmm - it must vary by region...  On the trip I took to VBO
    last month, AMEX didn't even ask the hotel they booked me at
    if there was a corporate rate.  (The hotel offered it to me
    on arrival at $40/day less than the AMEX price.)  
    
    					-al
    

    	What about...
    
    	If I can get a better deal than what DEC (through whatever travel
    	supplier) has set me up with, why not let me pocket half of the
    	savings and give the rest to DEC.  
    
    	As it stands now, there is no incentive for me to even try.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    From the other side of this discussion, I've had very few problems with
    Amex Travel Services; in fact, they have "gone out of their way" many
    times to either make things more convenient for me and/or to save
    Digital some extra dollars.  A few examples:
    
    * I had a trip to Reading last year.  When I got the tickets, I noticed
    that Amex had booked me from Boston to *Glasgow* via London.  Of
    course, I called to complain.  The Amex agent calmly told me that I
    should just get off in London, and throw the London-Glasgow portion of
    the ticket away or turn it in with my expense report.  Reason: routing
    this way instead of just Boston-London-Boston was $600 cheaper.
    
    * A couple years ago, I was going Boston-London-Paris-Boston and made
    the reservations thru Amex.  A few days after I made the res, Amex
    called me to ask if I cared to spend the Sat night of that weekend
    (between London-Paris) in Brussels.  Brussels???  Reason: if I went
    London-Brussels-Paris instead of just London-Paris, the entire cost of
    the ticket was reduced about $300.  So why not?
    
    * Every time I get an itinerary from Amex, domestic or international,
    most/all of the flights have two lines; 1 line for the confirmed seat,
    and another line for the exact same flight showing "waitlisted".  The
    "waitlisted" for the *same* flight is to get a discounted seat on the
    same flight.
    
    * When booking hotel reservations, Amex always checks to see what the
    Digital negotiated rate is at the hotel versus the Amex negotiated
    rate, then they book it at the cheaper rate.  Always.  Sometimes
    Digital has a cheaper rate, sometimes Amex, but the point is that they
    do attempt to get the cheapest rate.
    
    They are also (usually) very "quick on the trigger" if your requested
    hotel is going to cost more than the Digital guidelines for your
    destination city.  And if you choose a particular routing and they find
    something cheaper, they are required to mention it to you, and to note
    it in a log if you elect not to take the cheaper routing.  (However, I
    don't know what ever happens to that "log", if anything).
    
    I have very few (if any) complaints about Amex Travel Services.  You
    may want to ask/post your questions in the DELNI::ON_THE_ROAD
    conference, as that has several items regarding Digital travel.  Press
    KP7 to add this conference to your notebook.
    
    Jon

   As I understand it, DEC has a software product that interfaces directly
   with major airline systems. It is called DECport. I also seem to recall
   that we were working a deal on access to the OAG (online Airlines Guide),
   some time back. If it really that bad, then we should fix it.
   
   q
   

    I have some comments to make on this note; I'm not a moderator here:
    
    (1) General negative criticism of a company which has no ability to
    respond is unfair, and could have unfortunate consequences. American
    Express could have a legitimate concern that they do not have the
    ability to explain what's been said of them even if every word is true
    and factual.
    
    (2) Discussion of reciprocity isn't a good idea either.  We've probably
    covered this ground in MARKETING or DIGITAL before, basically such
    mutual purchasing agreements have been used as the basis for civil
    anti-trust suits.
    
    (3) American Express is a customer of Digital and entitled to some
    privacy and confidentiality.  Details of potential or actual business
    ought to be disclosed here only with the permission of the account
    manager.  I don't know whether or not permission was sought by the
    authoir of the earlier reply.
    
    (4) As pointed out earlier ON_THE_ROAD is the place for this sort of
    discussion.
                

    Also not a moderator, but my two cents worth:
    
    I have had better-than-average service from AMEX since we switched,
    but it was inconsistent for a while.  I would not go back to the old
    one at this point.  Their ability to track me, respond at all hours,
    and reconfigure my arrangements (without CCMgr OK in some cases) has
    kept me from being stranded in some strange places.
    
    I also have a suggestion for those of you who do not get decent help
    from AMEX travel:  COMPLAIN!!!  I mean this in a constructive way.  I
    believe that they can't fix problems that they don't know they have.
    If you feel that you are being neglected or jerked around, don't even
    hesitate; call for a supervisor or manager and explain the situation.
    I have found that they make every attempt to be responsive when you
    explain your expectations to them.
    
    Cost Center managers who have employees who travel a lot should invest
    a few bucks in some training on how to travel for business.  I attended
    such training with my former employer, and I'm sure it saved them at
    least tenfold over what the course cost in just the first year.  The
    problem with most of the cost-containment garbage we get these days
    is that it consists mainly of admonitions and regulations, which is
    totally a negative approach.  The training I attended spent a lot of
    time explaining the travel business from the inside, like how the
    airlines design their fares to screw the business traveler who has
    little or no discretion about when he travels.  It turned the dreary
    old cost-containment messages into a game on how to beat the system,
    complete with a pocket scorecard.  And what red-blooded American
    doesn't dream of beating the system, especially when he can keep score?
    
    re: the comment on pocketing the difference ...
    
    There are too many problems with this approach for it to be feasible.
    First, the whole system would be wide open to abuse.  Just ask for
    the highest possible fare as your top parameter, then conveniently
    adjust your schedule to the excursion rates, and maximize the amount
    you can skim off the top.  It would require too much policing to be
    useful.  Second, I get paid to be a network consultant, not to be
    a travel-industry researcher.  I know too many people who already
    spent lots of their time fiddling with non-essential trivia, and
    I don't doubt that this approach would just encourage them more.
    
    Finally, regarding Patrick Sweeney's comments in .18:
    
    AMEX is our supplier, and I believe we have every right to discuss
    their performance in whatever terms we like internally, and we have
    no obligation to include them in the discussions for any reason.
    What if someone told you that you couldn't complain to your wife that
    the refrigerator was broken unless the president of Sears was there
    to rebut your argument?
    
    We're still PRIVATE Industry, not PUBLIC servants (not yet, anyway).
    
    Geoff

    
    My 2 cents on a good topic.
    
    I travel some(4-8 times/year) and almost always make my reservations
    myself first. I get to travel at the times I want/need and at the best
    fare possible.(I too have had the "throw part of the ticket away
    experience, strange things these airfares. Who ever said competition
    would reduce confusion?)
    AMEX has usually been cooperative with my booking this way.
    
    I completely agree that an educated consumer is the best way for DEC
    to save $$ in travel. Knowledge is a powerful tool. And being able
    to talk the travel language has helped.
    
    Rich-a-traveler-who-now-knows-the-way-to-San-Jose
    
          

    As a secretary who has worked with managers who traveled more than they
    probably cared to... I've been making travel reservations through our
    Corporate Travel Dept. for years, and for many different people.
    
    AmEx is doing a very good job compared to the firm who had the job
    before them.  I've had my share of minor complaints, and a few
    recurring problems.  The problems that were serious were taken up with
    the DIGITAL LIAISON to Corporate Travel.  There are two such people in
    Marlboro who interface with Corp. Travel and are very receptive to
    ideas, comments, suggestions and complaints about Corp. Travel.
    
    In my new position, I use AmEx's VIP travel.  Their service is
    outstanding and the agents are extremely professional and helpful.
    
    It's key that if a secretary is involved in making the travel arrange-
    ments for you, she understand and accomodate what her manager wants
    booked-- flight, hotel, transportation, etc.  She must also work with
    Travel to try to get the lessor $ fares.  However, in my group, I
    never, NEVER accepted discounted fares.  If I did, the Company would
    lose money because of the way the managers' schedules changed so
    frequently.  In fact, I had it put on the managers' travel profiles -->
    DO NOT ACCEPT PENALTY FARES.
    
    Regarding the example that was given a few notes back about an airline
    quoting one fare and then the agent quoting another:
    
    Airlines reserve "X" number of seats on a plane for certain fares. 
    Once those lower fares are sold out, then you can still buy a seat on
    that flight, but for a different price - usually a higher price.
    
    You want to start another interesting conversation?  Do you know the
    Corporate Policy on Frequent Flyer Points [all you folks who fly
    often]?  I've heard of so many people who will change flights, or a
    fare class, or an airline ---> and cost the Company more money ---> so
    that they can get their Frequent Flyer Points.  That's against Company
    policy, our Travel folks will verify.
    
    Rgds,
    

    Dealing with AMex sounds like our customers dealing with Digital...
    it all depends on the agent/salesperson and the office/district.
    That's why some salespersons are Decatholon types and others are
    not.
    
    rr

    Oh, I agree.  There was one agent at AmEx - Marlboro, who if I got her
    on the phone, she was so painfully slow... and AGGRAVATING, that I
    would pretend I had another call coming in and would tell her I'd have
    to call back!    
    
    But for the most part, most of the AmEx agents are very good.  If they
    are not, or when there are errors made on their part, our Digital
    liaisons to American Express want to know!  That's their job... we pay
    AmEx to do a service, we have every right to demand that that they do a
    good job.
    
    .22 - If you really want to know who is the Digital liaison for Marlboro
    corporate travel, please send me a note offline.  I'd like to make sure
    that the two people I know are still in their same job, and then will
    share that name with you.  I only know the MARLBORO area liaisons, but
    I'm sure they would know their counterparts in Maynard, etc.
    
    Rgds,
    marcia

    
    ALL-IN-1 Mail for AMEX Customer Service
    
    Corporate Travel and American Express Business Travel are
    pleased to announce that for a 6 month trial period the American Express
    Business Travel Centers servicing Digital in the New England
    Area will be accessible via ALL-IN-1 mail for customer service
    issues.
    
    The account has been established to facilitate communication and
    resolution of customer service issues affecting business travel.
    
    PLEASE NOTE:  Reservation requests, cancellations, and high
    priority issues should be handled by telephone.  American Express
    Supervisors and Customer Service Reps will be responding to your ALL-IN-1
    mail.
    
    The account is available to employees who use the American
    Express Business Travel Centers in Maynard, Marlboro, and Merrimack.
    
    Please direct all mail via ALL-IN-1 to:  AMEX_CS @NRO

   re .-1
>    PLEASE NOTE:  Reservation requests, cancellations, and high
>    priority issues should be handled by telephone.  American Express
>    Supervisors and Customer Service Reps will be responding to your ALL-IN-1
>    mail.
 
   So, if the above are to be done by phone, hat is left to be done by mail?
   
   It should be realized as well that a large number of people in this area,
   don't use ALL-IN-1. 
   
   q
      
   

Sounds like it's only good for working on problems, and not for getting
business done.

For those not enjoying the benefits of ALL-IN-1, the address given can
be specified to VAXmail as MTS$::"NRO::AMEX_CS".

/john

    RE:  .26 
    
    Exactly.  Thank you.  I KNEW somebody would say something about
    VAXmail.  Fer heavens sake.  :-}
    
    The ALL-IN-1 account is to send your feedback, address issues of
    concern, problems, etc.  All too often, people just grump about the bad
    experience they had, blame it on the secretary [ARRRRRGH], and that's
    the end of it.  Unless the Digital liaisons are made aware of the
    problems that are encountered with AmEx, they can do nothing to help
    the situation.
    
    Rgds,

    re: .26
    
    MTS$:: etc will only work if the logical MTS$ is set up to point to
    a node running MRGATE.
    
    Not necessarily a common occurrence.
    
    
    						- andy

    Last year I went on business to Germany.  Trying to be a good corporate
    citizen I wanted to go Coach.  AMEX said coach was not available and
    that I would need to travel business class, my
    personal (outside DEC) agent was able to get me coach seats (at 1/2 the
    price).  I have had a few similar experiences.  Is it worth $1000.00 to
    uses AMEX in this case?  I don't think so.
               
    Michael 

   Here we go with the Good Corporate Citizen/Travel myth again. While
   travelling coach saves some money, it also has some additional problems.
   It is cramped, particular on long flights, so you potentially end up with
   someone who arrives cramped, tired and irritable - just the right frame of
   mind to meet a customer or resolve an internal problem. Expense restraint
   at the cost of lost revenue, is not a benefit to anyone.
   
   There may, of course, be exceptions to the  rules. You may be small framed,
   and find the Coach seats comfortable, You may enjoy children throwing up on
   your shoulder, or climbing under your legs to find their lost toys. You may
   enjoy waking up in the middle of the night-flight, to find the person next
   to you asleep on your shoulder, drooling on your suit.
   
   We most certainly are not going to maintain a corporate image of being aboe
   to work with the big players, if we look like we just got off the long bus
   trip from hicksville...
   
   Peter Q.
   

    
    Re -.1 
    
      What you were describing was "Steerage", not coach...  :^)
    
      While it's true that coach may be uncomfortable, the extra
    tiredness can often be offset by an extra "sleeping day" which
    can be used for resting/sightseeing and the extra expense can
    still be well below the savings by not travelling business
    class...
    
    						-al
    

    If you want to appear professional:
    
    1)	Don't wear your suit on the airplane.  It gets wrinkled.
    
    2)	Don't plan to meet the customer the day you arrive, right off
    	the plane.  For a monday meeting in Europe, for example, depart
    	the eastern US on Friday evening.  You will arrive around noon
    	on Saturday and have a day and a half to catch up on your Jet Lag.
    
    If DEC doesn't want to pay for the extra hotel days, they are being
    really cheap (considering what the airfare is).  I would pay for
    the room myself and consider it a brief holiday with DEC picking up
    the transportation.

re .29:  I travel coach class regularly (not for business) - I've never had
any of the problems you describe (except once three years ago when some schmuck
thought it cute that his 2 year old was throwing toys at me - one out of about
60 flights).

And if I travel coach when I'm going somewhere (yes, even overseas, yes, 
even for 12 hours) then I wouldn't feel right about going business class 
when it's DEC's money.

    It must be nice to have the luxury of not having to show up at a
    meeting shortly after getting off an airplane.  It must be nice to able
    to fly on Friday night so as to be rested and ready to go in Europe
    on Monday morning.  Since at least some of us are just returning
    Friday night from the previous weeks events somewhere else in 
    the world, its pretty hard to head out for next weeks at the same 
    time.  And on the few weekends we are not headed in on Friday night,
    we frequently get requests from our spouses to make an appearance
    at some point.  Hotel costs are irrelevant.  Time is the issue and 
    there just isn't enough of it!
    
    -sue
    
    

    RE: .30
    
    Knowing Peter's and my respective dimensions, in one way or another we
    are "larger than average".  20" does not in 19" fit comfortably for 7
    Hours.  Cattle car is uncomfortable if three adults (of similar sizes)
    are across.  Whereas, if my kids are going such that it can be kid and
    me with an arm up, it works.
    
    Coach is fine for shorter hops, but for Europe it can be a pain
    (literally) and Down under is even worse.
    
    Re .34
    
    I have twice been "stranded" for up to two days since the air fair
    difference minus the extra two days of expenses was a net and fairly
    large profit.
    

   .34 and .35 put it rather well. 
   
   As with .34, I can remember in the last 5 years, being away from for at
   least 3 of my birthdays, and two wedding anniversaries. I went so close to
   missing my son's birth, that it wasn't funny. I have staged Decus symposia
   where 2-3 hours sleep in 24 was regarded as a Luxury, and not just for 4-5
   days but for a week or two before hand. About 12 months ago, I was in
   Australia (Sydney) and had to go to Perth to help close a Megabuck sale .
   As a result of a Airline Strike, I had to go via Singapore. sitting in the
   airport for 3-4 hours waiting for a midnight connection which got me into
   perth at 4 am. Ready to start work at 8 am. A few days before, a coworker
   and myself drove 1200 miles from 4 am sunday to 1 am monday to start work
   monday.  I have had occasions where schedules have found me in the right
   place at the right time, to relax for a moment. (Such as trout fishing on
   New Zealand's north island, but then that was part of a 9 week roadshow,
   where I was only home for 4-5 days in 9 weeks.)
   
   As .35 puts it, so tactfully, I might add, some of us aren't built for
   coach. (Are all boeing seating engineers 4 ft tall?) I am 6'2" 250+ lbs.
   Most of my travel these is between boston and Australia. that is 26-28
   hours of time in planes and airports, a 12-14 swing for jetlag. Don't tell
   me what is cost effective.
   
   I might add, in a lot of countries, the Corporate Tax environment allows
   deduction of valid business expenses. This makes the net effect of costs
   like these, on the corpoation, much less as they become deductable
   expenses.
   
   q
   
   

	as I read Note 1124.29 from MRCSSE::MATATIA, the comment is made
	that "AMEX [was] unable to find cheapest fare".  the employee
	"wanted to go Coach" but "AMEX said coach was not available"
	although an outside agent "was able to get coach seats".

	this seems to be a failure of AMEX to provide cost-effective 
	service to DEC.  corporate policy permits use of business class
	for long trips.  there are several previous replies that point
	out situations in which it would be appropriate to exercise 
	this option.  however, when an employee wishes to exercise 
	a different option, which does not cost the company more, it
	should be handled routinely by American Express.

							john

    There are many variables to consider:
    
    o  The author of .29 contacted AmEx who said Coach was not available.
       Implied "At that time."
    
    o  It does not say WHEN the author contacted his agency [e.g., immedi-
       ately, several hours later, the next day...]
    
    Airlines restrict certain fares to "X" number of seats.  When they are
    sold out, that's it, then you buy the next highest fare.  More often
    than not, your name can be put on a waiting list.  Very often the lower
    fare will open up for the traveler due to cancellations, etc.  AmEx
    does use this process.  However, if the author didn't make his
    reservations thru AmEx, obviously they didn't pursue the matter.
    
    That's a possibility.
    
    AmEx is contracted to look for the most cost-effective way for Digital
    employees to travel.  If they fail for some reason or another, then it
    is up to the individuals involved to send that feedback to the supervi-
    sors of Corporate Travel for them to handle.  If that feedback is not
    sent to the appropriate people, it can't be corrected.  I've posted an
    address in an earlier reply to this note for sending feedback to Corp.
    Travel.
                                                
    I had several major gripes about the firm who last handled travel for
    Digital, before AmEx came in.  The only way I could be heard was to go
    to the meetings sponsored by Corporate Travel.  It helped.  Feedback is
    important.
    
    Rgds,
    marcia

    Regarding replies to my note .29:
    
    re .30:  I am not making any judgements about how others should travel. 
    For me I can't justify paying double the amount for added service that
    is just not worth it to me.  Employees have the complete right to
    travel the service that the company allows as policy.  Also if it is
    policy, they should not be asked to compromise that right.  However
    an employee should have the right to save the company money if it does
    not present risks to his performance with the company or customers. 
    AMEX should try to meet this need.
    
    re .36: Paying 1/2 price has to be better under any "Corporate Tax
    environment".
    
    re:38: I called my agency immediately after calling AMEX and after
    reserving the coach for 24hrs before booking I double checked with
    AMEX with the same results.  I have had the same problems trying to get
    the cheapest fare to CXO.  I would call AMEX and then my agent and
    would get the cheaper fare from my agent.  Finally I asked my agent to
    tell me the actual class (which I think was H class),  then I
    called AMEX and said 'Is there an H class available?....they then
    found it and quoted me the identical price.  Should I really have to go
    that far as to find out what particular class of coach is available.
    Next time I encounter this situation I will better document it and
    provide that feedback to AMEX.  Until then just take my story as
    support to others that question AMEXs ability to find the cheapest fare
    requested by us.
    
    -Michael
                      

	The problem you describe may not be entirely the fault of AMEX.
    My uncle works as one of the lead programmers for the SABRE system
    at American Airlines, and he explained to me exactly how difficult
    it is to determine the cheapest fare at any given time.  Due to the 
    combinatorial nature of such calculations, the time required to
    compute "the cheapest possible flight path" for a given customer
    would on the order of years to compute.  By that time, of course,
    the flight patterns, prices, and schedules would have totally changed!

	Therefore, the process of computing an inexpensive flight path
    is a little like playing chess with a computer chess game set to
    "beginner mode".  The computer program is limited as to how many
    calculations it can reasonably perform in a given amount of time
    for a given customer transaction.  You are always welcome to program
    a better version, but be sure to turn the lights out when you leave
    waiting for the answer if you expect to get the cheapest possible
    flight.

				   -davo

re .40:

It shouldn't be more difficult to find an economy class flight than a business
class flight.  The noter wasn't complaining that AMEX didn't know that DEC
could save $.49 by routing him through Kalamazoo.

    re: .40
    
    My daughter spent two hours at a travel agency a couple of months ago,
    shaving dollars off the cost of our vacation.  I can't be sure she got
    the lowest price, but she did save a lot off the original price. 
    (Sorry, I don't have numbers.)  When I demanded to leave from
    Manchester, NH instead of Boston MA, she saved another $50.
    
    I recently took a class on "commercial SABRE".  It seems to me that
    the system lacks some pretty simple facilities for searching for a 
    low-cost fare.  Yes, doing a full analysis would take forever, but
    even a 10-minute analysis would proabaly produce significant savings.
    
    As for writing your own algorithm, you can't because the data base
    isn't made available, except over a low-speed terminal link.
    
    I suspect that saving the traveling public money isn't a very high
    priority of SABRE.
        John Sauter

re: 1124.40

>    My uncle works as one of the lead programmers for the SABRE system
>    at American Airlines,

Ask him to look into fixing the exchange rates that Sabre uses. They are wrong.
I discuss this in the delni::on_the_road conference.

    While in New England I made my own reservations since I could
    consistently beat the price given to me by AMEX ... I was told that I
    could no longer do that because AMEX pays Digital $35 for each
    reservation that AMEX makes for DEC employees ...

    What's the justification for AMEX paying DEC for each reservation that
    they make?

    Jerry

   I don'tthink that it is so much of AMEX paying DEC. What is more likely to
   be happening is that when AMEX make a reservation for DEC, They charge DEC
   normal retail rates. AMEX gets airline seats, and hotel rooms at a much
   reduced rate. Rather than try to factor that into the price then and their,
   they will credit our account based on activity etc.
   
   q
   

If you make the reservation yourself, and then call AMEX and have them pick
up the ticketing, DEC still gets the $35.

/john

>          <<< Note 1124.44 by MORO::BEELER_JE "Advance to the rear" >>>
>
>    What's the justification for AMEX paying DEC for each reservation that
>    they make?

Travel agencies for commercial accounts (like DEC's) typically rebate
a large portion of their commission (paid by the airlines and hotels
to the agency) to their client.  $35 would be unusual only in that it is
a fixed amount, but it might be a typical rebate on a $500 ticket (7%).

- tom]

I wonder if AMEX will reduce that rebate now that we won't be buying any more
Business Class tickets to and from Europe.  (It's official -- effective
immediately.  No Business Class between the U.S. and Europe or on flights
less than eight hours.  From the Executive Committee.)

/john

From:	NAME: Doug Hammond                  
	FUNC: Corporate Administration        
	TEL: 223-8464                         <HAMMOND.DOUG AT A1 at CORA @ CORE>
Date:	14-Aug-1990
Posted-date: 14-Aug-1990
Precedence: 1
Subject: TRAVEL COST SAVINGS                                                    2
To:	See Below



               * * * THIS MESSAGE IS FROM JACK SMITH * * * 

Expenses incurred during business travel represent a $500 Million cost to 
Digital.  We must insure that an investment of this magnitude yields the 
meximum potential benefit for the Company.  I need your help.  Fewer trips, 
shorter trips and fewer travelers are the most direct way.  All scheduled 
travel should be reviewed in light of its impact on profit.  Any deemed 
unnecessary should be terminated.

Given our committement to return this Company to appropriate levels of 
profitability, we must take an aggressive approach to reducing travel 
costs.

To that end, following are travel cost reduction opportunities with which 
we must all comply immediately:

	- Eliminate unnecessary travel.

	- Don't send multiples when one will do.

	- No travel to GIA/Europe without Operations/Executive Committee 
          sponsorship.

	- Use travel agents under contract for all business travel needs.

	- Plan and book trips earlier (aim for 14-21 days in advance).

	- Fly the lowest logical fare; frequent flyer programs etc. are 
          costing us $6 million per year in the U.S. 
 
	- Travel Coach Class to and from Europe and all other trips less 
          than eight (8) hours duration.

	- Use Avis and National car rentals for lowest DEC rate - stay at 
          DEC approved hotels.

                                    -2-

Adhering to the above will save us over $25 million in the U.S. alone.  In 
addition, a 10% reduction in the number of trips taken will yield another 
$50 million in savings without having an adverse impact on our customers or 
our products.

As indicated, the savings shown above are U.S. only.  GIA and Europe should 
comply with the 8 hour coach rule, and develop programs similar to those 
for the U.S.

Travel will provide you with monthly information on the extent of your 
organization's compliance with the commitments outlined above.

If you have information indicating that we are not getting the lowest 
rates, it is important to get that feedback.  Contact All-In-One account 
AMEX CS @ NRO.

It is your responsibility to disseminate this widely and assure compliance.

                    
/ml

To Distribution List:

WIN HINDLE @CORE,
KEN OLSEN @CORE,
JIM OSTERHOFF @CORE,
JOHN SIMS @CORE,
JACK SMITH @CORE,
ABBOTT WEISS @CORE,
BILL STRECKER @CORE,
NAME: Jack Smith <SMITH.JACK AT A1 at CORA @ CORE>,
NAME: Bill Demmer <DEMMER.BILL AT A1 at CORA @ CORE>,
NAME: Bob Glorioso <GLORIOSO.BOB AT A1 at CORA @ CORE>,
NAME: Dom LaCava <LACAVA.DOM AT A1 at CORA @ CORE>,
PIER CARLO FALOTTI @GEO,
NAME: Dave Grainger <GRAINGER.DAVE AT A1 at CORA @ CORE>,
NAME: DICK POULSEN <POULSEN.DICK AT A1 at CORA @ CORE>,
NAME: Russ Gullotti @ CORE <GULLOTTI.RUSS AT A1 at CORA @ CORE>,
NAME: DONALD ZERESKI <ZERESKI.DONALD AT A1 at CORA @ CORE>,
NAME: BILL HANSON <HANSON.BILL AT A1 at CORA @ CORE>,
NAME: BILL STRECKER <STRECKER.BILL AT A1 at CORA @ CORE>,
NAME: PETER SMITH <SMITH.PETER AT A1 at CORA @ CORE>,
NAME: Bill Johnson <JOHNSON.BILL AT A1 at CORA @ CORE>,
NAME: BRUCE J RYAN @CORE <RYAN.BRUCE J AT A1 at CORA @ CORE>,
NAME: Dick Farrahar <FARRAHAR.DICK AT A1 at CORA @ CORE>,
NAME: Abbott Weiss <WEISS.ABBOTT AT A1 at CORA @ CORE>,
NAME: Ken Olsen <OLSEN.KEN AT A1 at CORA @ CORE>,
NAME: BOB PALMER <PALMER.BOB AT A1 at CORA @ CORE>,
NAME: Grant Saviers <SAVIERS.GRANT AT A1 at CORA @ CORE>,
NAME: Mick Prokopis @ CORE <PROKOPIS.MICK AT A1 at CORA @ CORE>

To Distribution List:

BARRON @LEDS @VAXMAIL,
BASTIANI @AKOV11 @VAXMAIL,
PERRY @SSVAX @VMSMAIL,
BURCKHARDT @KBOV05 @VAXMAIL,
FREDERICK @SSVAX@VAXMAIL,
FREDERICK @MEMORY @VAXMAIL,
PAM JOHNSON @MLO,
HAYES @SSGVAX @VAXMAIL,
KOBAYASHI @JRDV01 @VAXMAIL,
KOTULAK @WITNES @VMSMAIL,
ADLEMAN @KBOMFG@VAXMAIL,
LOWE @SSVAX@VAXMAIL,
PLAKIAS @SSGVAX @VAXMAIL,
RIGGLE @GENRAL @VAXMAIL,
VANROEKENS @ELWOOD@VAXMAIL,
GARY HOPPE @MRO,
OBRIEN @SSVAX @VMSMAIL,
SNYDER @CSSE @VMSMAIL,
MARMEN @SSVAX@VAXMAIL,
CHRIST @SSVAX@VAXMAIL,
DORMITZER@ENGINE@VAXMAIL,
CABRINETY@ROYALT@VAXMAIL,
JROSE@SPCTRM@VAXMAIL,
JIM FLANAGAN @WJO

    So, does this rebate find it's way back to the cost center that
    authorizes the travel, or does it vanish into some slush fund
    somewhere?
    
    gary

    I've found that the AMEX offices are not at all agressive about
    looking for good air fares.  They're big and so are we, so if I
    don't go back to them somebody else will.  My own travel agent may
    not get huge commissions, but he gets zillions of small ones.
    
    Someone mentioned in an earlier reply that it's the responsibility
    of the employee to be flexible, etc, in order to get the best fare.
    I agree with that to a certain extent.  I think the bottom line
    is simply to pretend it was your own money you were spending.  It
    sounds trite, but it would definitely cause you to ask things like
    "Do other airlines go there, too", does leaving a day early (ie:
    staying over a Saturday night) help the fare, or (and this one should
    probably be asked first) can I accomplish this with a phone call?

On August 31 a bunch of very attractive air fares were about to expire. I 
called Amex late in the afternoon on the 31st and said I wanted to purchase 
tickets from Rochester, NY to Las Vegas for Decus in early December. After 
letting the phone ring for awhile I finally got someone that could only take a 
message. An hour later, around 4:30 pm I called back and finally got through 
to an agent. Get this: They said their computer was 'down', possibly to update 
to the new fares and it wouldn't be back up until after everyone had gone home 
for the day. I told the person that this was ridiculous since they were likely 
to get a number of calls from people like me trying to get low-priced tickets 
at the last minute (I personally think they should have put on an extra shift 
that night).

Anyway, I ended up calling USAIR and finally got through around 11pm (their 
800 number was busy all night!) I purchased tickets for $278 round-trip. The 
cost on September 1 was around $450 for the same flight! So I saved the 
company a few bucks. And I'm ready to respond to anyone who wants to reprimand
me for not using our official Corporate Travel Vendor... 

Another problem: my corporate Diner's Club showed a charge for a Boston Hotel
where the date of the stay was the day AFTER I left Boston/DECworld. No one
told me of this 'guaranteed reservation' which ended up being charged to my
credit card. I called the 800 DECworld number and they said to FAX billing
disputes to some Marlborough number. I did that and haven't heard anything for
a few weeks now. 


Jim

    A recent experience I had...
    
    A few months ago I was travelling on business to Colorado Springs from
    Boston.  Due to flight delays I was unable to leave until the next day. 
    I called AVIS to cancel my reservation for the day I was scheduled to
    leave and to arrange for a car for the next day.  First of all, AVIS
    told me that AMEX had cancelled my original reservation.  WHY???  But,
    when I asked to reserve a car for the next day I was asked "Do you want
    the Digital Corporate Rate or the cheapest rate?"  Somewhat surprised I
    asked "Wasn't the Digital rate the cheapest?" and the answer was no.  I
    was able to rent a car for a fixed rate with no mileage charge.  If I
    had used the corporate rate the fixed rate would have been higher FOR
    THE SAME CAR and there would have been a mileage charge.
    
    Morale of the story...
    
    	Corporate Rate DOES NOT ALWAYS EQUAL cheapest rate
    
    Why?  Darned if I know!

    I try to find the cheapest rates when I travel (which isn't often).  But
    I also try to balance cost savings with my own well being.  I learned this
    the hard way at Autofac '85.  I thought I could do better than the $60.00
    hotel rate, so I had our secretary book a less expensive motel.  When I
    told people where I was booked ( Suez Motel on 8 Mile ), they told me not
    to go back there at night...  I think I tried again, and ended up in a
    Knight's Inn room that smelled like urine and cigarette smoke.

    If I know an area, I can do better than Amex.  But if I don't, I can't.
    I'm going on a trip soon to a meeting which will be held in a hotel.  The
    meeting will include Digital "pre-meetings" which start at 7:30.  I could
    book a cheaper hotel, taking my chances with the quality of the
    accomodations and the state of the public transportation system at 7:30
    in the morning ( or pay the difference in the hotel rate for a personal
    car for the week ).  Or I could stay in the hotel which is hosting theh
    meeting, which is above "corporate guidelines."  By the way, our
    secretary says ALL the reputable hotels in that area are above corporate
    guidelines.

    Now tell me.  Will it be cost effective for the company if I save them
    (sorry, not in an editor, change "them" to "us") 15.00 a night, at the
    expense of showing up for the pre-meeting "strategy" meeting half
    asleep and exhausted, because 1. I didn't get any sleep because I had
    bad luck choosing a cut-rate motel in a strange city and 2. I had to
    run 16 city blocks because I didn't understand the transportation
    system?  (BTW when I fly, I feel as bad as my suit looks when I get
    off the plane).

    I have enthusiastically tried to find ways to save the company money
    whenever I have traveled.  Some of them worked (like buying groceries
    at a supermarket).  Some of them didn't (like the Suez motel).  When
    the guidelines become firm to the extent that they ruin our
    effectiveness upon arrival, we'll be in trouble.  I hope we all
    use discretion when traveling, and I hope we continue to be given the
    benefit of the doubt when discretion dictates spending some money to
    avoid being rendered ineffective.

    Who sets the guidelines for hotel rates?  Shouldn't they be required to
    NAME the hotel which meets those guidelines in the area?  Anyone know if
    it's safe to stay at the "Vince" something hotel in Seattle?

    Gee, this is sure sounding more and more like DELNI::ON_THE_ROAD,
    the conference devoted to discussion of business travel.

    Major hotels in major cities (especially when they are the site for a
    meeting or convention you're attending) have several rates, and I'll
    use a well-known chain in downtown Chicago as an example, since I
    recently checked into this:
    
    1.  The normal "off the street" rate:      $198
    2.  The normal corporate rate:             $184
    3.  The negotiated Digital rate:           $178
    4.  The negotiated Amex rate:              $156
    5.  The conference attendee rate:          $139
    
    It pays to ask.  There is normally a special conference rate if the
    hotel is being used to host a conference/convention, which is normally
    the cheapest rate available.  But if booking your travel thru Amex (no
    more Amex ratholes are being encouraged here), the Amex rate for a
    given hotel is *frequently* less than the Digital negotiated rate. (As
    much as 35% less than the Digital rate at at least one European hotel
    I'm aware of).  Amex *usually* mentions this fact when you're making
    your reservation, but if not, it could pay to ask.
    
    fwiw
    Jon

Our Corporate Rate with AVIS is either the negotiated rate or a local
rate, whichever is lower.  The AVIS Wizard box will do the right thing.
Ignore the people at the counter looking things up in books; they are
clueless.  Especially ignore them if they try to tell you that you have
to use the corporate rate if you're travelling on business (I had this
happen to me in New Orleans, and had Corporate Travel straighten them
out).

/john

    Re .53 (lowest rate <> DEC corporate rate for Avis)
    
    I had the same experience in Massachusetts with Avis. In my case,
    the special rate for AAA members (I happen to be one) was lower
    than the DEC corporate rate. I took the lower AAA rate. The person
    at the counter told me this doesn't happen normally, though. 
    
    Maybe I should talk to my manager about charging DEC for
    my AAA membership :-)
                                    
    Ganesh.

Re: travel stories a few replies ago

	I hope you've reported specific instances of AMEX not being helpful
	and/or supplying less than the best rates to the proper folks, in
	addition to posting it here.

	Question: HAVE YOU????

	I just looked in the phone book under TRAVEL, called and was told
	that any issues regarding AMEX should be directed to
		Claudia Blass
		KNX1-1/D2
		DTN: 279-3167

re:.58 (saving money by using AAA rate instead of Digital rate)

	I know that much of the insurance protection is based on using our
	corporate travel card (Am.Express or Diners) when those of us in the
	field who have such cards rent a car. [Earlier experience when I
	worked in Maynard and travelled was that GMA travel is often billed
	directly to Digital via a travel voucher.]

	Question: Do you (or anybody) know if there are any potential
	insurance liabilities if you don't use the Digital corporate rate?

		/Marvin

    The corporate rate at Avis covers the CDW as well. Does AAA or some of
    the other special rates mentioned in here also do that? That is $8-10 a
    day and may explain a difference between AAA or other discounts and the
    Digital rate.
    
    John H. 

    
   Re .59:
    
>>	I know that much of the insurance protection is based on using our
>>	corporate travel card (Am.Express or Diners) when those of us in the
>>	field who have such cards rent a car...
    
    My understanding is that declining the collision damage waiver has
    nothing to do with using AMEX or Diners, coprorate or otherwise, but is
    based instead on the assumption that it will be cheaper for Digital to
    foot the bill for damages rather than reimbursing the CDW all the time.
    
    The policy says that you should always decline the CDW when renting a
    car for business porposes, and is not qualified by the requirement to
    charge the rental on AMEX or any other charge card that provides
    automatic CDW.
    
    Based on that, I assume that Digital is willing to back any damage
    claims regardless of how little you pay for the rental.
    
    (I hope I'm not wrong here, because I've often rented cars for business
    on my own card that did not offer automatic CDW, and I've always
    declined CDW per corporate policy.)
    

    And it is the same when renting a car for personal reasons.  If you
    have collision on your own personal policy, no need to buy it from the
    rental agency...  
    
    A few back,
    
    QUESTION:  ARE YOU SENDING YOUR FEEDBACK...???
    
    The August/September Management Memo has a copy of Jack Smith's travel
    memo.  The last line reads:
    
    "If you have information indicating that we are not getting the lowest
    rates, contact ALL-IN-1 account AMEX CS @NRO."
    
    Please send your feedback there.  They can't fix it until you tell them
    something's wrong!
    
    Rgds,
    marcia

re: .62:
    And it is the same when renting a car for personal reasons.  If you
    have collision on your own personal policy, no need to buy it from the
    rental agency...  

Watch it, this depends on your particular state and -- possibly -- on
your particular policy.  Also, some "gold" credit cards cover CDW if
you rent on their card.

When I talked to the MetPay folk in the Mill last year, they said my
policy would cover CDW if the rental car was replacing my normal car --
which it was as I was renting in California.  However "your mileage
may vary."

Martin.

Massachusetts Auto Insurance Regulations specifically specify that the
rental car must be replacing your normal car because of it being inoperable,
not just because you are in one place and the car is in another.

/john

My policy, in NH, not MetPay, specifically covers the family's drivers in any
car.  The car in question can be rented or borrowed.

I don't know if this is State driver or what hough.


				Bill

    re. 61 
    
    Digital no longer self-insures.  Instead the contracts we have with
    AVIS and National have FREE CDW included in the contract for Digital
    contract rates.  The AVIS contract is even better in that it gives you
    free CDW for not only DIGITAL contract rates but also for any cheaper
    promotional rates and also gives free CDW if you rent for pleasure only
    (but be sure to state the ID # A126200 when renting) please check
    VTX TRAVEL  for these and other questions related to car rentals.
    The above is true only for the USA.  Other rules apply in Europe,etc.
    I believe your cost Center will pick up the cost in Europe as Free CDW
    is not given.

    Re .64 
    
    I checked on this with our local Metpay office prior to renting a
    car during a vacation. The agent told me that everything except the
    comprehensive coverage (fire, theft, vandalism etc) automatically 
    shifts from the car originally insured to the rented car. This doesn't 
    seem consistent with what you're saying about Massuchusetts regulations.
    
    Ganesh.
      

If you live in Massachusetts and have an automobile policy, you should have
a copy of the policy in a form approved by the commissioner of insurance.

That policy is very specific:

Definitions 5. _Your_Auto_ means: ... B. Any auto while used as a temporary
substitute for the described auto while that auto is out of normal use because
of breakdown, repair, servicing, loss or destruction. ...

Part 7. Collision.  Under this Part, we will pay for any direct and accidental
damage to _your_auto_ [emphasis as required by the Commonwealth] caused by a
_collision_.  We will also pay for _collision_ damage to other _private_
passenger autos while being used by you or a household member with the consent
of the owner.

/john

    Back onto the original topic; AMX and savings.
    I would think it useful to collect some historical data on per-trip
    air-fare, hotels, etc. before and after AMEX became the exclusive agent.
    Since some cost centers of the world are still using other travel
    agents, one could use these non-AMEX accounts to calibrate industry
    trends and then possibly draw some conclusions as to whether AMEX is
    or is not saving DEC money.
    
    The problem as I see it is that no one can do this except AMEX or our
    corporate travel department.  This is true if there are (as has been
    suggested) discounts and allowances which are not reflected in cost
    center reports.  Then one wonders if either corporate travel or AMEX
    could provide an objective analyis because both have an interest in the
    outcome.
    
    I wonder if this is a suggestion that needs to go to the CIA (Corporate
    Internal Audit) for action?
    
    Regards,
    

    I thought the following topic had come up before, but I couldn't find
    it in my searches, so perhaps I'm mistaken, and this seems to be as
    good a topic for this question as any.
    
    Just out of curiosity, I called a couple of those places listed in the
    classified section of USA Today regarding tickets.  It appears as if a
    person wanted to do a bit of shopping amongst these travel agencies,
    one could save Digital quite a bit of money in travel.  For example,
    there was one place that was selling a San Francisco-Boston round trip
    ticket for $400.  Yea, maybe you could do better with some super saver
    fares coupled with 30 days advance purchase, but if you don't have
    the luxury of "many moons advance purchase", that's less than HALF of
    what that ticket would cost thru Amex.
    
    I'm not knocking Amex here at all.  These may be "bump" or "award"
    tickets, since the travel agency said that I MUST fly a particular
    airline and MUST book in a particular class of service (M or Q).
    
    Questions:
    
    1.  Where would it NOT make sense to save Digital big bucks by going
        this route?
    
    2.  Would doing this violate Digital's agreement with Amex, even if
        big bucks were saved in the process?
    
    Not wanting to start a war or rathole, just curious
    Jon