Conference 7.286::digital

    Um.  Excuse me.  Didn't Ken say that he knew of this problem, and was
    going to see that it was solved?  Didn't he say about a year ago that
    it would be solved within a year?  If they think it's solved, it's
    still broken.
    
    Ken needs to have his direct reports repeat the experiment he did a
    number of years ago:  Configure, order and assemble a system from the
    same documentation/pricebooks/option lists that any other salesman
    would use.   I think he'd be dismayed.

RE: .0

It would be interesting to add up the time you spend/t on situations
like these.  I've got to believe that on a small sale like this your
running around squanders most, if not all, the profit on such a system.

Posting something like that might get the attention of some managers.

John

	Sounds like we need a DEC Cable Catalog. Argh..

						mike

    As you say, you have managed to get very fast support.
    Has the evil thought of selling TWO 3340 crossed your mind ?
    (Reliability,back-up,and dare I say it profit ?)
    
    Only 50% joking ....
    
    Mike Day
    

    re .0 find out the source for the drive-with-cable and 
    order the cable from the manufacturing plant.  
    
    
    
    

    The system has been like this forever.  The problem here is that
    its still broke, and getting broker.
    
    Long term your management should have a vested interest in getting
    it fixed.  However, like getting most things of this magnitude fixed
    the outlay of time, just trying to find out how to bring it to the
    approperate groups attention is a full time career (larger in scale
    than a job).  Finding out who to tell is merely a full time job.

    In the short term you could see if the DM was interested in
    accumulating and maintaining an inventory of cables (say a dozen
    or so of the popular ones).  Then order everything without them.
    It might get one of the systems in question to become upset, in
    which case the problem might come looking for you.
    
    Selling tools might make a big difference if the view of their
    deployment was on laptops ...
    
    -kevin
    

    re:.0
    
    Hi...
    	An ex-field service rep here...I seem to recall that the BC16V-XX
    cable part# has been changed to a "70-CLASS" part #. If memory serves
    me, that is the same cable used on the RAxx-series drives.I suggest
    talking to a logistics person, who should be able to cross-reference it
    for you. You might also talk to your friendly local Field Service
    office.Field Service is always more than happy to help Sales to sell.We
    are used to it now!!

    What this problem needs is ownership and action. It also needs more
    people to raise it as an issue. To often in this company we put up with
    things that are plain silly because they are "part of the system".
    
    I for one will be thinking about and acting on ways I can find and fix
    issues like this in this geography. 
    
    Despite what we think sometimes people do not make systems like this 
    because they want to be difficult and give us a hard time. Most people
    really want to help the selling effort but get little feedback on what
    they actually implement. So.... We need owners in our geography who can
    take these kind of problems on and chase them down. If we knew who to
    tell and all of us made a positive suggestion on how to improve things
    then the problems would get fixed.
    
    andrew
    

    Rich,
    
    I work in field service and spend most of my time at a site that
    is huge DECwise. Its a a R&D type place. We have 2 DEC salespeople
    there who are terrific at representing DEC and I am amazed at the
    kind of goofy things the customers ask them to do. It isn't the
    volume or the size of the requests as much as the neverending nature
    of them and they are all the same. The customers have the cataloges
    and they know what the restrictions are but they want to know the
    things that the edge of the performance envelope is and can our
    sales people sell something in that edge. 
    
    example 1. how can the customer access the internal scsi bus on
    a model 40 3100?
    
    example 2. 2 klesi's can't work on a 8350 with a unibus option.
    so how few devices on the unibus can be used and have the klesi
    work?
    
    example 3. the ba23-c is not supposed to be used on the microvax
    3. how many opions can we use before it stops working? 
    
    Honest folks these are real questions our customers ask and the
    customers ask salesreps are looking for. Is the system broke? I
    think not. Before we had salespeople to ask these things to the
    customers used to try it out and suceed or fail on their own now
    they've got a eager to please sales person there to help them come
    up with a better answer than what the book says. 
   
    You've got my sympathy dealing with these configuration and customers
    questions. The reason we are so complicated to deal with is that
    we offer so much and customers naturally ask for more and know that
    we can do even more.
    
    Fred Mudgett
    

    re:.0
    This is a sad commentary on our organization and it's ability to
    respond to a customer.  It also reflects on an organizational
    short-coming, which is assigning responsibility without authority.  If
    I am responsible for something, but cannot take the necessary action
    to improve, correct, change, then I am not responsible.  "Bottom-line"
    no one will do what is needed to correct the situation . Which leads to
    re:.1
    Ken's time could better be spent in charting our corporate future and
    implementing the assignment of responsibility and authority in such a 
    way that these problems are met, resolved and eliminated, without his
    personal involvement.  I'm new to the organization, but every time I
    read a new note, it seems that the only one that can get anything done
    is Ken.  Is that true?
                                Daryl

    Re: Note 1039.7 by SMD72J::FLAHERTY

>   I seem to recall that the BC16V-XX
>   cable part# has been changed to a "70-CLASS" part #. 

    We tried that, too. The 70-class number was not obtainable, either.

    The real issue is not finding this particular cable. The cable was only
    a small example of the entire process that makes it difficult to get it
    right the first time. 

    Also, this was not the case of trying to make an 'unsupported'
    configuration work. The configuration is a supported one, but finding
    out how to do it and getting the pieces to do it was the problem.

    I don't have a problem with getting Customer Service (formerly Field
    Service) to help fix such problems. They are usually great to work
    with. But it's not right to dump these kind of thing on them, either.
    They've got a different job to get done, besides chasing bits and
    pieces and cleaning up after the sales process.

    Please remember... 

    THIS IS BUT ONE EXAMPLE OF WHAT IT'S LIKE TO SELL OUR OTHERWISE GREAT
    PRODUCTS. THIS SCENARIO IS REPEATED THOUSANDS OF TIMES, MORE OR LESS,
    EVERY DAY IN THIS COMPANY BY OUR SALES PEOPLE.

    Regards,
    Rich

    Rich,
    
    Have you considered the Management Response Center?  In November
    LiveWire carried an article which I quote below:
    
    	"As part of the USMC's overall commitment to helping the Sales
    organization resolve customer issues quickly and assisting in removing
    barriers that may impede business, a Management Response Center (MRC)
    was recently created."
    
    I used them recently to contact an engineering group and they are very
    good at getting results.
    
    Have your Sales DM call 276-MGRS (6477) or (508) 496-6477.

    I am also in sales so I can very much relate to .0. By the way, keeping
    up to date with hardware, at least for me is, is not too difficult. I
    can generally catch the big gotchas. However, software and particularly
    software services can be very difficult to configure and quote.
    
    Some other thoughts-
    
    re. 12
    
    Good idea. I think it would be benefical for the MRC to let us sales
    folks know that they are their to help with little problems as well as
    big ones. The reason I say this is because they send emails to us about
    once a month telling us about all the big problems they solve (which is
    good also, of course).
    
    There is also a program for ideas called the Delta Program (ALL-IN-1
    address is Idea Central @OGO). If you can turn your problem into an
    idea, like making changes to the Systems and Options Catalog, then you
    should submit this to the Delta Program.
    
    I know this doesn't solve the problem, but maybe at least its another
    vehicle to get feedback to the right source.
    
    Curt

    Pardon me, thats -
    
    Ideas Central @OGO
    
    Curt

    I wish that my access to HUMAN::DIGITAL wasn't so very slow, for,
    there is a lot that I would like to say ....
    
    From the perspective of this base note ... I sold for DEC for nearly
    12 years...solid ... what you describe is no different now than it
    was 12 years ago, with the exception of the fact that things do have
    a tendency to move somewhat 'faster', but, the frustration that
    both you and the customer suffers is still there.  How WONDERFUL
    it would be if you could devote your time to S-E-L-L-I-N-G as opposed
    to issues like this.  You say that all of this took place in one
    day, well, that's great, but, personally, I'd infinitely prefer
    to see you in front of more customers during that one day period.
    
    Enough of that rhetoric.....
    
    One of the most VALUABLE yet underutilized resources for the individual
    sales person in DEC is that of the Field Service organization. I would
    have gone to them FIRST.   Develop that relationship - it will pay off
    HANDSOMELY in more ways than one.
    
    Jerry_who_is_returning_to_the_sales_organization_ASAP!

re .13:

>    By the way, keeping
>    up to date with hardware, at least for me is, is not too difficult. I
>    can generally catch the big gotchas. However, software and particularly
>    software services can be very difficult to configure and quote.

	As an ACT consultant working to get CASE software sales up, I
	see this from the other side of the fence. One BIG difference
	I see is that whereas we have a CASE Partner Program, Competency
	Circles, Product Update Training, etc., to pass information round
	among the SWAS specialists and consultants, it's very hard to get
	to speak to Sales people.

		- There are people in Corporate jobs whose task is to
		  control the flow of information to Sales people. No
		  doubt this is to stop them wasting time learning about
		  "bits and bytes" to the detriment of their valuable
		  selling time...

		- I have recently had great difficulty getting a list of
		  our Major Accounts and the account teams. (Remember, I
		  am the principal EIS focus for CASE knowledge in the UK,
		  which is about 10% of our business). When, eventually, a
		  flat list of people came thorugh, it was accompanied by
		  an injunction not to distribute it.

		- The UK decided unilaterally not to send any sales people
		  to European "Winter School" last month, on grounds of cost
		  control. I believe the sales force will be travelling
		  to the States this summer (en masse?) to attend Summer
		  School. Of course, they are now exactly ONE YEAR behind
		  the States, which held Summer School last year.

	When we get away from the idea that Sales people get all they
	need from Sales Training, Sales Update and the Price List, and
	move back towards regarding them as normal human beings like the
	rest of us, they will come to understand software better. The
	sales people I know certainly understand just as quickly as anyone
	else when they get a chance.

	/Tom

re .15:
   
>    One of the most VALUABLE yet underutilized resources for the individual
>    sales person in DEC is that of the Field Service organization. I would
>    have gone to them FIRST.   Develop that relationship - it will pay off
>    HANDSOMELY in more ways than one.

	Having worked in Field Service for several years, I couldn't agree
	more! 

	They're called "Customer Services" in Europe today. Why? Are they
	the only people who work with customers? Btw, why isn't Customer
	Services part of EIS?? That would make good sense, since what we
	are trying to sell to major customers (who contribute most of
	our revenue) is a long-term relationship. Here is a quote from
	a VP of a major customer which makes my point perfectly (names
	disguised):

>	The customer is concerned that Digital has the best integration
>	strategy of any of their vendors.  Digital has provided the best
>	support in terms of products and services.  But Digital has fallen
>	down badly in providing support, and IBM has waltzed in to fill the
>	vacuum "while the DEC salesman pick the low-hanging fruit" (her term,
>	not mine).  [VP] stated that "Digital sells PRODUCTS, not our
>	strengths".  [VP] wants Digital to be their INTEGRATOR!  She said
>	that [customer], at time, feels INSULTED that we distinguish between
>	"pre-sales support" people and support personnel.  She said the term
>	"pre-sales support" communicates a short term attitude.  Our sales and
>	pre-sales support people are in their faces every day looking for the
>	PO's, but when they get them, few DEC "support" people follow through
>	after the sale. We have an image of being heavily driven by short-term
>	revenue production, rather than working to support the customer,
>	understand their business, and work with them to provide SOLUTIONS. 

>	[Customer] wants Digital to lean on them hard when we feel they're
>	making an improper decision.  She said "YOU SELL US WHATEVER WE ASK FOR,
>	AND WE'RE STILL NOT SUCCESSFUL".  If Digital can convince [customer]
>	that another solution is more appropriate, [customer] use it". 

>	Clearly, [customer] wants Digital to invest in their business.  But the
>	messages that came back were clear.  Cut down the number of Sales and
>	Pre-sales Support people. Provide [customer] with good competent
>	technical people who will sit on [customer]'s staff and influence their
>	directions. [Customer] consider it "value-added" in their total cost
>	model, and are willing to pay for it in the cost of the goods and
>	services they buy. If Digital will work with them to influence their
>	strategic directions, they will provide us with a forecast of
>	procurement, and will manage to the forecast. 

>	[Customer] stated that the door is open wider than ever, but Digital
>	will have to respond with resources, not more sales people.  They have
>	indicated their desire to be a better customer, if we will strive to
>	be a better vendor. This doesn't indicate that we're providing poor
>	product or service now, only that we're not interacting with them
>	effectively in planning.

	I think this is typical of what most of our major customers want
	(whether they tell us as clearly as this or not). Customer Services
	provide the example of the way we should work WITH customers. But
	they shouldn't be restricted to a "support" role. Here's an example:

	Staff at the UK CSC (Customer Support Centre) complained that they
	had to spend too much time filtering and even writing SPRs for
	customers. This conflicted with what they saw as their job: fixing
	problems and devising workarounds. HOWEVER, many of those SPRs
	(especially the "enhancement" ones which CSC found completely
	uninteresting) ought to be gold dust to Marketing. After all, they
	comprise a complete set of customer requirements and requests.
	Marketing are paid to get hold of that sort of material. Yet there
	is no provision for those enhancement SPRs to be channeled to
	Marketing.

	/Tom

.15>    One of the most VALUABLE yet underutilized resources for the individual
.15>    sales person in DEC is that of the Field Service organization. I would
.15>    have gone to them FIRST.   Develop that relationship - it will pay off
.15>    HANDSOMELY in more ways than one.

.17>	Having worked in Field Service for several years, I couldn't agree
.17>	more! 

    I don't know the circumstances surrounding the individual situation
    referenced in the base note, but, would venture to say that under
    most circumstances, had the sales representative sat down with his/her
    local field service representative the problem could have been solved
    much more expeditiously.
    
    Here's another side of that "day".  Suppose that all is well and
    good with respect to the technical answer that the sales representative
    received 'over the phone' (so to speak).  The system arrives in
    the field - and lo' and behold the field service representative
    comes back with "this is an illegal configuration and we can't support
    it".  This is quite possible but TOTALLY avoidable if the field
    service representative is involved FROM THE BEGINNING and not after
    the fact.
    
    I'll never understand why the field sales organization doesn't actively
    closer ties with the field service organization.  EVERYONE profits,
    the customer, most of all.
    
    Jerry

    Instant rathole: "Field Service" are now "Customer Services" worldwide,
    not just in the UK.
    
    	- Andy

.19>    Instant rathole: "Field Service" are now "Customer Services" worldwide,
.19>    not just in the UK.

    You're right.  I'm wrong.  I apologize.  Forgive me, but, it's probably
    just "age" getting to me - I still use the term "P/L 90" on occasion.
    
    It will take a while to get out of the "Field Service" terminlolgy
    since I've been using it for nearly 20 years now...very difficult
    to teach an old dog new tricks, you know.
    
    
    Jerry

    re. .18
    
    Jerry, I agree that Customer Services is a dynamite organization and
    probably could help if the rep got in touch with them, but I think its
    important that our published material like Systems and Options Catalogs
    tell us about gotchas, such as needed part variations, cables, et al 
    as much as possible. Being from a small office you should know that the
    Customer Service folks are not always readily availble and the customer
    just can't wait. 
    
    We need to make our stuff easier to sell or if complexity cannot be
    avoided our publications need to supply all the pertinent configuration
    information - even for fairly extended configurations.
    
    Let me give two examples-
    
    1. Figuring out what and how to order the right memory for the
    VAXstation 3100 was impossible when it first came out. Thankfully the
    next generation of System and Options Catalog had the needed
    configuration information in it. It should have been in the first
    generation of the Catalog.
    
    2. Figuring out which SCSI controller you needed to connect a RX23
    floppy drive to a VS3100 is no better. You try to figure it out.
    
    These kind of situations are particularily painful when you're quoting
    a $10K workstation and you've got a $2M budget for the year.
    
    Curt

.21>...Customer Services is a dynamite organization and probably could
.21> help if the rep got in touch with them...
    
    Delete the word "probably" and I agree.
    
.21>..but I think its important that our published material like Systems
.21> and Options Catalogs tell us about gotchas, such as needed part
.21> variations, cables, et al as much as possible.
    
    The SOC will probably never reach that level of detail - don't forget,
    those are for customers also - not just some sort of 'technical
    reference' for the sales force.  I don't want the SOC to get to
    such a level that the customers can't read and understand them.
    
    Yes, here's loads of 'gottchas' and they've been around for a long
    time and will continue to be around for a long time to come.  I
    have ALWAYS found VAXnotes to be an extremely valuable resource
    in addition to developing your local and 'corporate' resources.
    I only wish I knew why the sales force doesn't use VAXnotes.
    
.21> Being from a small office you should know that the Customer Service
.21> folks are not always readily available and the customer just can't wait. 
    
    Large office/small office - makes no difference.  The KEY is to
    set the customer expectation level properly.
    
.21> We need to make our stuff easier to sell ...
    
    When our stuff gets 'easier to sell' - count me out.  I remember
    well when the MINC-11 was announced.  The product line people made
    a big deal about it "selling itself" - great - go get a store front,
    or go for a telemarketing campaign, but, don't give it to me to
    "sell".  I like the challenge of competition...you know "God...how
    I love the smell of napalm in the morning" type atmosphere.
    
    Yes, I'm more than painfully aware of the $10K sale with a $2M budget.
    I remember once going up against an AK-47 and all I had was a bayonet.
    The 'budget' was very high ... but... you have to take on a few
    of these skirmishes before the air strike gets there...know what
    I mean?
    
    Jerry

    re. 22
    
    You miss my point somewhat. The point is that we need to build-in
    reliability and quality into our sales information vehicles just like
    we do for our products. 
    
    If I can't find the info to configure systems properly in the SOC, I'd 
    like to think XSEL is gonna catch it. But this is not always the case. 
    This is when the sales rep's time gets wasted.
    
    (By the way, I would like to point out that I think that the SOC has 
    gotten better over the years. However, there is still room for 
    improvement.)

    By the way, I think your fear of having too much technical information 
    in the SOC is unwarranted. There is already a bunch of technical 
    information in there that my customers don't understand. If formatted 
    properly, I think the technical information can be supplied and not 
    be distracting.

    Also, unlike in past times, I believe we are now at a point in our 
    history where we cannot afford not make a profit or win the majority
    of the business on our commodity products - READ: WORKSTATIONS. The 
    vendor with the majority of the workstation marketshare in an account is 
    in the driver's seat. Thats the new reality. 

    We can't afford to lose this business and we can't afford to spend all 
    our time configuring one $10K DECstation 2100. So whats a rep to do? I'm 
    trying to do both, but you can bet that reducing my time configuring 
    workstations is on the top of my list.

    And I sure hope the DECstation doesn't go the way of the MINC-11 (is that 
    why the MINC-11 wasn't too successful - too busy selling DECsystem 20s, 
    right?).
    
    Ideally, commodity products should be orderable without a sales reps 
    involvement (via DECdirect). The key word there is IDEALLY. To reach this 
    goal we need to have reliable configuration information in our catalogs, 
    whether they are for ourselves or our customers. Bottom line here - There 
    is always room for improvement. 

    I'll admit it - I want these desktop "appliances" to be easy to sell. 
    No shame in that. That way I can concentrate on the tough sales, like 
    Enterprise Integration Solutions. Now thats using your time wisely.
    
    Finally, I believe that more sales reps will be using VAXnotes. Have
    you seen the ALL-IN-1 interface for VAXnotes? Or how about giving the
    rep a VT1000 so they can get at VAXnotes through a DECwindows
    interface? 
    
    However, I still think this is an educational issue somewhat
    - you've got to educate a rep in how to use the tool and show him/her
    how it can be valuable. Sales reps don't get user-training for a
    internal tools unfortunately (or at least seldom that I am aware of).
    
    Curt
    
    
    
    

    re: .17

    I can't imagine CS being part of EIS. For one thing, CS is a bigger
    and (from the comments here, which I agree with) a better managed
    organization. EIS in my vicinity (or zone or whatever the new
    geographies are called) has yet to announce its mission, its
    organization its business plan or anything else about itself.
    I'll bet that if EIS were part of CS, those things would have been done 
    6-9 months ago.

    re: .18

    Note that the comment does not mention EIS, just that Sales+CS is 
    "dynamite".
    

    As a final thought here-
    
    Why don't we have a notes files for Sales like we do for Marketing?
    
    Granted, we may not have a whole lot of sales people who do you use
    VAXnotes, but those who do can share their sales issues with the rest
    of the company and give a better perspective of what its like to be 
    in sales for DEC.
    
    If after establishing it for a while, there is no interest in the 
    conference, we can always kill it.
    
    Curt

    
    ref: 1039.35
    
    I suggest calling the conference SELLING
    leaving no doubt as to its function and that any employee selling
    anything to any customer should be accessing regularly the conference.
    
    Surely there is someone out there with a big enough node to start this,
    preferably in a selling position?
    

re: .26,
    
>    Surely there is someone out there with a big enough node to start this,
>    preferably in a selling position?

	Don't count on it.  Look how hard it is to access this notesfile.
    A SELLING notesfile is a great idea, but unfortunately, since it doesn't
    contribute to the bottom line of any particular internal cost center,
    chances are it will never be created.

	Looks like yet another reason why we need a corporate entity which
    is chartered with the explicit purpose of providing resources for such
    cross-corporate, virtual-team notefiles, in addition to improving the
    performance and accessability of the virtual notesfiles already in
    existence (such as this one).

				    -davo

p.s.	This is the first time all week that I have actually been able to
	access this notesfile before 5:00 EST.

        Re: Note 1039.25 by DPD08::VETEIKIS

>   Why don't we have a notes files for Sales like we do for Marketing?

    One reason is that at least some of us in sales (well ok, me anyway) 
    do not have access to systems that can be used as a host for such a
    conference. The systems that we have are called FORCE machines, and are
    fairly strictly controlled.

    Rich

    re: .25
    
    I would not advocate a separate conference. The SELLING process and the
    MARKETING function need to be integrated more ... not separated.
    Sellers should hear the marketeer's view, and marketeers should listen
    to the sales reps problems/issues. We need more synergy here, not less.
    
    /se
    

    re. 29
    
    I agree with you. That makes sense to me - we need to keep the 
    marketing folks and sales folks together and what you are suggesting
    would foster positive cross-functional communication.
    
    Maybe the Marketing conference should be renamed to Marketing_Selling 
    conference (or some such name). This way the few sales noters would
    feel comfortable posting sales-related notes in the Marketing conference.
    
    Curt
    
    

    Re: ALL
    
    This note is great!  It's a perfect example of the DEC Culture as it
    relates to problem solving.
    
    In the base note, the author raises a fundamental problem, illustrated
    by way of example.
    
    The very next thing that happens is a number of point fixes are
    suggested to fix that example.  Whew! Glad we don't have to worry about 
    that anymore!  Bet you didn't know there were so many places where
    help was available.
    
    It also attracts a few quips, and because there really is a fundamental
    message there, we throw in a reference to Ken for good measure.  
    Loved the "Ownership and Action" statement - it sounds so good.
    
    Ok, so the author feels strongly enough to re-state the message, in
    this case in note .11, and in CAPS.  That gets attention.
    
    Now we get the good suggestions about fixing the real issue, and useful
    words about having all the places who suggested point-fixes earlier work
    together.  
    
    And in the end, what's the real solution?  Why, another notes file, of
    course!  Problem Solved.  The Digital Way.
    
    Bruce Gow
    Cultural Observer

    re .31  you've found the tip of the iceberg...

    Gee, I thought Curt Veteikis had a good idea about starting a "selling"
    notefile.  Why not?
    
    I believe what Curt has expressed is a desire to discuss work related
    issues with a wider audience of his peers than just the people in his
    immediate office, which may not be as big as the (a) Boston office or
    the Northwest District office or whatever.
    
    I'm not in sales.  I'm in engineering.  From what I've seen, there's
    *at least* 1 notefile for every engineering project that I can think
    of.  For us, it is a way to exchange information within our group that
    only we would be interested in.
    
    Judicious use of Notefiles can be a good thing.  After all, a
    "notefile" is really a "database" that has an interface that we're all
    used to.  Yet it is like a reference book where one can learn and
    share ideas.  You can skip pages by the hundreds, only read what's new
    and search for specific information.  What if someone in sales has a
    problem identical to Rich Koteri's (sp?) and s/he doesn't read Digital?
    
    The thing that I found disturbing is that immediately after Curt's
    response was a reply condemming the idea because it can't be done.
    No.  It could be done and providing  ideas on how to technically
    accomplish this would be more productive.
    
    Hey Curt, UI thought it sounded like a good idea buddy.  If the
    marketing people want to stay in tune with what's going on in the
    trenches, they read your notefile.  I'd encourage you to stick with it
    if you think it will help you do your job more efficiently.  That's
    what we're here for.
    
    Maybe Mr. Carnell can help you out.  I know that he is looking for good
    ideas! :-)
    
    /brett
    

    
    I also thought noting was a good idea. Personally, I'd rally for an expert
    system that could be asked "How do I configure a 3400 with 4 RRD40s,"
    and return a complete list of parts to be ordered. But that's a
    blue-sky wish, and effective noting is possible right now.
    
    I take particular exception to .31, which had a distinct air of sarcasm
    (although it was sufficiently ambiguous and content-free that I could
    be way off base). Care to step down into the muck, o observant one, and
    propose a reasonable alternative solution to the problem at hand?
    
    Bill Kilgore
    Cultural Preserver/Contributor
    

    I think a SELLING notesfile is a really good idea.  I don't have a
    place to put it, but I might help with it. 

    Someone said that we should let the MARKETING notesfile suffice. I
    follow that conference and often find it interesting, but generally it
    seems to get into these marketing debates that I don't have time for.
    It seldom seems to get into issues that really help me in the selling
    process. I think there is place for both.

    A SELLING conference would be an excellent repository for lots of
    general information and pointers for new and old sales reps. It would
    be a good place to ask questions. With the proper approvals, it would
    be a good place to store the Sales Flashes (in addition to VTX) and the
    DECspress memos for future reference. It could have information on how
    to use ACCESS, the Sales VTX Infobase; DVN broadcasts for sales;
    Industry sales training events; Corporate Leader Forums; and new
    product announcements.

    It could be a nice resource for many of us who would use it, though I
    doubt all of the sales force would use it.

    Rich Kotter

    P.S. I don't expect that it would solve the basic problem in the base
    note, but it could help the selling process.

    Sorry about the mispelling Rich Kotter (sp!)
    
    I just wanted to add that it seems to me ( very removed, small minded
    opinion) that telling the sales professionals they have to use the
    Marketing notefile would be like telling the ULTRIX group that they
    have to use VMS notefile.  After all, they're both operating systems.
    
    Instead, wouldn't it be better to provide a place for "them" to talk about
    supported configurations, QA numbers, places to find 3rd-party software
    that customers need, and other information they need to complete the
    sale?  It seems to me that many of these salesperson's notes deal with
    a common problem; that is lack of informal information sharing
    capabilities.  Of couse I am NOT on the indside and I could be totally
    wrong.
    
    Since it's not really my business, I'll stay out of it and wish you
    folks the best for Q4.  :-)
    
    /brett

    re .34  re .31
    
    Gee, "wild Bill" I think you missed the base.  I didn't take it as
    negative on .0 or the notes file suggestion.  It was a comment on the
    solution process itself ....
    

    An interesting postscript to the specific problem in the base note. I
    was informed today that the cables needed (BC16V-12) have now been
    added to the price file. They can now be be quoted and ordered. Of
    course, the acid test will be to find out if they can be shipped :-).

    Now, lest anyone think that the REAL problem was fixed, consider this:
    Getting this problem solved is like killing ONE mosquito in the swamp.
    It sure makes you feel good for a moment, until you notice the swarm
    closing in. Hopefully, we can one day figure out how to drain the
    swamp, instead of killing the blasted mosquitoes one at a time.

    Rich Kotter

    The SELLING conference will be opened during the week of 16 April.

    In view of the fact that I have the resources, but not the time, I'll
    ask that interested parties send me mail to indicate your interest.

    I'll advise you of the location of the conference, you can enter the
    seed topics, and, as soon as there are a few seed topics, we'll
    announce it in EASYNOTES.

    Send mail to ABACUS::BEELER or BRAT::BEELER.  I urge your immediate
    attention since I'll have some "spare" time this week, then, other
    things will keep me occupied.

    Jerry

    re: -1
    
    I doubt very many sales reps read EASYNET_CONFERENCES.  I suggest a
    mailing to all the US DM's and Geography/Country staff announcing the
    conference.  That's the only way you'll get the needed publicity.
    
    Al
    

    I doubt seriously that a mailing to US DM's would get anyone anywhere.
    
    I know sales unit managers that absolutely forbid their reps to read
    any VAX Notes conference irrespective of the topic....no...I think that
    "word of mouth" will go much further.
    
    I intend to get a list of attendees at the last Educational Industry
    Symposium that was held in Dallas about two weeks ago and send them
    announcement(s) of such conferences...so far...no mail from anyone.
    
    Jerry

    Here's a question that has recently come up and I figure a day in the
    life of a saleman starts first thing in the morning.
    
    I will be interviewing for a Sales Development Specialist job after
    many years in manufacturing.  The question is:
    
    	What is the feeling about beards?  Do clean shaven faces 
    	have an edge in an interview over bearded ones?  Would a 
    	person be expected to be beardless?
    
    Thanks,
    
    JC
    

    
    I've worked in Sales many yars ago. I've had a beard since 16 and when
    trim and tidy, have had no complaints.
    
    
    						- andy

    Where I live, N.Y. Suburban, the DSM has a beard.  Over the years, at
    least 2 SUMs likewise.
    
    -dave

    Before you go for the interview, why not ask somebody
    in the department where you'll be working.

    Actually, the person referred to in .44 has the kind of beard which 
    accentuates an already strong resemblance to Old Scratch (Satan, the
    devil, whatever) himself, which is a source of enormous entertainment
    for his staff.  Truth be told, he revels in the comparison, since it's
    the sort of image which Sales DM's like to cultivate.
    
    I suppose it depends on your particular appearance, but beards are not,
    in general, a good idea for customer contact positions.  If you believe
    in the dress for success model, people with beards are not perceived as
    trustworthy.  On the other hand, selling computers is not like selling
    washing machines at Sears - there is much more to the job than first
    impressions.
    
    Al
    

    RE: .42  "To beard, or not to beard?"
    
    >	What is the feeling about beards?  Do clean shaven faces 
    >	have an edge in an interview over bearded ones?  Would a 
    >	person be expected to be beardless?
    
    Why not hedge your bets and shave one side?
    

    re .46 and people with beards being perceived as less trustowrthy...
    
    AN IBM sales rep once told me that when they are on the scent of a big
    sale and the customer apears skeptical about their claims, IBM will
    "break out the beards". This refers to the practice of taking the
    prospect to XYZ Engineering facility where relatively scruffy people
    (at least by IBM standards) will hopefully convince the customer that
    they are getting the real skinny on the product because the speaker
    looks, acts, and dresses like the prototypical Engineer.
    
    I don't know if the story is true but I really like the phrase (even if 
    it does earn me a spot in the next UDD program).  
    
    
    Bill
    
                                                      

    re: .42
    
    Past experience is that in general, if you come to the party with your
    beard, and it's kept neat 'n' trim, there will most likely be no
    problem. Once you GET the job, growing something is sometimes met with
    raised eyebrows.
    
    Wierd, eh?
    
    /se
    

    Perhaps not, but certainly weird.

        
        re .46
        
>    trustworthy.  On the other hand, selling computers is not like selling
>    washing machines at Sears - there is much more to the job than first
>    impressions.
        
        Reminds me of the line floating around... "What is the difference
        between a used car salesman and a computer salesman????"
        
        A used car salesman knows when he is lying.
        
        :-)
        q
        

RE: .-1

Or how about...

How can you tell when a DEC salesman is lying?

His lips start to move.

    Re .52
    
    I'm not a DEC sales rep but if I was I'd be really offended at your
    remark. I have met many DEC sales reps and I haven't met one that
    I thought would deliberately lie. Yes I've met some that are worse
    at their job than others but overall I've been very impressed by the
    DEC sales reps that I have come across. They have a pretty thankless
    job in my opinion. How would you like it if somebody assumed that all
    people that worked in the "NY Retail Banking Resource Cntr" were
    incompetent and treated you that way.
    
    Dave

Re: .53

Come on... it was a generic joke.  .52 could just as well have said "IBM
salesman" or "used car salesman" or "lawyer" instead of "DEC salesman".
There's no reason for anyone to get offended.

				-- Bob

    back to the question at hand-
    
    I would find out what market and customer base you would be calling on
    -talk to the people in the unit was a good idea.
    
    Beards (and mustaches) are acceptable in some industries/geographies
    (and professions/companies/etc.) but not in others.
    
    We once had a resident who went on vacation and grew a beard asked to
    shave it by the customer when he returned, they had a company policy
    against beards (and mustaches below the corner of the mouth).  That
    firm also 'regulated' lengths of women's skirts and insisted jackets be
    worn except when at your desk by men.
    
    	-Barry-
    

re: .54

Yes it was a generic joke, but people forget that members of all those
professions have reason to be offended by such jokes.  Society will go
on telling them anyway, and perhaps they serve a purpose, but we ought
not be surprised when someone takes offense.

Defending them is a little like saying that ethnic jokes are "ok" because
you didn't really mean to single out any ethnic group, you just used the
stereotype as a convenient butt.  It's interesting though how these
jokes lost their bite when YFEG was attempted as a generic substitute.

Actually, the professional jokes don't even generalize so well, because
many of them depend very directly on attributes that have been associated
to a specific group.  For example, the idea that salespeople lie --- even
the Isuzu adds play on this.

I'm not denying that there may be fire behind some of this smoke, but
a generic statement that "ALL DEC salespeople lie" will be offensive
to at least some people.

Salespeople take jokes as well as anyone, but I imagine they must get
tired of them occassionally.

- greg

    re: .56,.53
    
    Sheesh.  Take the sticks out of your respective keysters!  I've heard
    that joke more times than I care to count, each time told by a DEC
    sales rep in the presence of customers.
    
    It's not that funny anyway, and no thinking person takes offense at it.
    I won't offend your sensibilities by passing judgement on the
    capabilities of sales people to think....  (and that's a joke, son; a
    joke, I say...)
    
    Al
    
    
    

re: .57

>   ... no thinking person takes offense at it.

Fact or opinion?

If you re-read .56 you'll see there isn't much to lighten up about.
It was carefully written to state a few facts.  It was not an attack
on the joke nor the author of the note containing it.  Nor on you.    

In my opinion DEC is in serious trouble these days and one of the
things we need to do is start re-valuating some of our treasured
jokes, such as the worthlessness of sales, marketing, and management.
We can no longer afford to entertain myths about their being without
value;  indeed, a $12 billion international company operating in an
increasingly competitive market needs first rate professionals in
all of its strategic operations.

The subject of this conference, "The Digital way of working" is
largely the subject of our traditions.  Many of them have great
value, others need to be revisited.

- greg

BTW: I think the joke is funny and I've repeated it many times
     in the past.  That's not the point.