Conference 7.286::digital

	Have you asked Fleet?

						mike

    I have purchased a fleet vehicle three times...
    
    1.  The price is determined by fleet, considering damage, mileage,
    average retail/whole prices, etc.  
    
    2.  The price is "fairly" fair.  Acutally, my experience is that the
    price is below retail, and a little above wholesale.
    
    3.  The price is not negotiable.  
    
    tony

    I am just purchasing a Plan A vehicle (the paperwork is in the mail):
    
    1.  The price is set by _the leasing company_, not by Fleet.  Fleet
        does not own the car -- the leasing company does.  For me, this
        means that the quote comes from GELCO.
    
    2.  The price, in my case, seems very good.  Try pricing a 1988 Chevy
    	Celebrity with 62K miles, in otherwise perfect condition. Mail me
        the price -- I bet mine beats yours.  Then, add in the fact that
        I know the history of this car.  I know it's no lemon.  I know what
        repairs have been made and when.  I know when the oil was changed.
        How much is this knowledge worth?  In my book, it's worth plenty!
    
    3.	I didn't attempt to negotiate the quote from GELCO.  Considering
        the price they gave me, I doubt that they'd drop the price any
        further.  And, honestly, I would have felt quite odd trying to
        knock down a price which was much lower than I expected to pay for
        the vehicle to begin with.  My wife called a few area dealerships
    	to get an idea what a similar year/make/model/mileage car would go
        for on a lot.  I don't think she received a price within $1000 of
    	the quoted GELCO price.
    
    Get a quote for your car.  You might be pleasantly surprised.
    
    -- Russ

    Answers:
    1) The lease co. will sell the car for *wholesale* no matter who buys
    it.(but,it costs them less if *you* buy it)
    
    2) Wholesale is a very fair price.
    
    3) NO

    Could any dec employee purchase a "plan A or B car" ? And if so
    who do I contact ??
         
    Thanks

	You contact the driver!

	Seriously, they are responsible for "disposing" of the Plan A car,
either turn it in or buy it. 

	Plan B is where the driver owns the car, and gets a monthly stipend
and mileage fee for "company" miles.  Naturally, they sell it.

    re: .6, .7
    
    Plan A cars might (repeat: MIGHT) also be available if your facility
    has official "floaters" or other vehicles which are turned in by people
    before the 3 yr/60K mile limit (e.g., a person leaves the company,
    switches to Plan B, etc.).  If your local region/whatever has a fleet
    office, contact them and express your desire to purchase a company
    vehicle.  They should be able to tell you if there are any vehicles
    available.
    
    I know that our local fleet office "liquidated" several floaters a
    while ago.  I believe that the number of floaters is supposed to be
    small (or zero...), but that doesn't mean you couldn't try to obtain
    one of the pre-3yr/60Kmi turn-ins.
    
    These "younger" cars can be purchased if you get appropriate fleet and
    cost center approvals.
    
    Bottom line: call a fleet office.
    
    -- Russ

I would advise caution if you are considering buying a used DECwreck.
In order to save money, many fleets get special deals.  The father of a
friend of mine is a VP at Ford and he told me that they often get rid of
parts from older models by sticking them in new cars and selling them to
fleets a special prices.

I believe that the 4-Cylinder Taurus DECwreck that is very common around
here such an animal.  It is an absolute piece of junk (The Ford VP
mentioned above told me that I would have to be crazy to buy it from the
fleet).  I have been told that the transmission failure rate is around
80%.  My car had a new transmission put in @30,000 miles.  I guarentee
that it will need another transmission before 60,000.

I would recommend that unless you are buying the car you have driven so
you know the history of the car and how it has performed you should not
buy a fleet car.

John

    > I believe that the 4-Cylinder Taurus DECwreck that is 
    > very common around here such an animal.  It is an absolute 
    > piece of junk 

    Isn't that why Fleet stopped providing the 4-cyl Taurus about
    two years ago and went with the 6-cyls?
    
    -- Tony

    The trouble with a 4-cylinder in a Taurus is that they lack horse
    power to climb hills and time to reach 55 M.P.H.  The Taurus's
    with the V6 engine also have an over-drive automatic transmission,
    so although more expensive to buy, don't eat any more gas than the
    4-cylinder and offer a better value at trade-in time.  This would
    probably mean that when it's time to buy the 6 cylinder car at turn-in
    time, the leasing company (now GE Fleet) may ask more for the car.
    
    I just turned in a 4-cylinder Taurus in January for a 6-cylinder
    Taurus that I'm driving now.  The 4-cylinder did run O.K., but it
    was losing a little bit of anti-freeze (about a gal. per 6 mo.)
    over time.  Other than that, I had to replace the electronic fuel
    pump.  No other problems were ever encountered.
    
    In fact, just to show how things get, I got an offer for the old
    car AFTER I exchanged the car with the delivering dealer.  I also
    got the exchange instructions a few weeks later than that.  For
    me, this was not a problem since I had no interest in buying the
    car.
    
    If the car I'm now driving performs properly, I may buy this one
    at turn-in time.
    

>    Isn't that why Fleet stopped providing the 4-cyl Taurus about
>    two years ago and went with the 6-cyls?
    
True, but the 4-cylinder Tauruses are the ones that are reaching their
end of service time right now and are becoming available for purchase.

John

re .0:  I bought a Plan A car 2.5 years ago for $800 less than dealers/private
parties would buy it for.  I was pleasantly surprised at that and thought it
was a great deal.

re .6:  Anyone can buy a surplused Plan A car.  Does not have to be DEC 
employee.  I know of an ex-exployee who bought one.

re .9:  My 4-cyl Taurus is a dog (pick-up wise) and junk (has had repeated
oil leak problems).  So I also would be leary about this type of car.

re buying Plan A car:  Some employees do not take their cars in for regular
maintenance.  I know one guy who *never* did (how his car ran 60K miles w/o
oil change I'll never know).  So it is important to know the driver and car
before you buy it.

Kyra

    The new plan A - at least for sales organization, states that you drive
    the A vehicle until Gelco refuese to fix it anymore - regardless of age
    or mileage. This will clklearly have an effect on the desireability of
    buying an A car either for personal use or resale. For those that
    loaded options on their current A vehicles  or were planning to replace
    their personal 2nd car with a 60,000 mile A car, the outlook is not as
    rosy as it once was.

    I've always been told that the intent of the company car was to provide
    you with a Sales Tool not an opportunity for personal gain. My '88 with
    68K miles still looks pretty decent not like a junker as the mileage
    might imply (amazing how a car wash gives it that new look again).
    
    I regret that I did not have the opportunity to "load it with options"
    (emergency order) as I would have had more time to enjoy them under the
    current policy rather than having to dish out the bucks on a
    replacement vehicle so soon (to load it with options again). In one
    sense, you actually save money if you end of paying for options say
    every 4 years instead of every 2. Maybe there is a silver lining here.

Obviously, most of the people discussing this subject, here and elsewhere
haven't read the not-so-fine-print in Don Zereski's memo of 28-DEC-1990.

Quote:

"Additionally, the current replacement guidelines should be relaxed, with
 vehicles retired for safety considerations or excessive repair needs only.
 Employees who had planned to purchase their existing vehicle, however, will
 still be able to do so."

Now, if you read between the lines, you will notice that the memo doesn't
indicate what happens after you purchase your Plan A car. My guess is that they
are assuming that you will put onto Plan B. Several secnarios are ultimately
possible:

	1. Buy the car and put it on Plan B.

	2. Buy the car and stay on Plan A; DEC finds you a floater and you can
	   drive it 'till it drops.

	3. Same as 2 but; DEC has no floaters and orders you a new car.

	4. DEC refuses to allow you to buy the car UNLESS you agree to put it
	   on Plan B.

I haven't called fleet & asked, because personally, I don't want to open up
this particular can-of-worms. I would guess that 1, 2 and 4 are possible, and
3 not very likely.

<Mild flame>

If your expectations were to be in the used car business for profit, while
continuing to turn over a new DECwreck every 3yrs/60K then I don't feel sorry
for you. The only reason that fleet should be selling cars to drivers is because
it's cheaper than disposing of the car by other means. (I don't mean to imply
that this can't work to everyone's benefit, and still be cheaper to DEC,
either. It's possible for fleet to sell you a car at or below book value, and
still get more for it than they could at auction.)

    Thats the problem with most memos. You have to read between the lines. I
    called fleet and they described #4. But the person I called said to run
    it by the ACTING fleet manager. I ALLIN1'd a note to him and have not as
    of yet received a reply.
    
    'Cept this morning I had a message to call my initial contact at fleet.
    Maybe he has a final answer on the above scenarios.
    
    Mike

re: .16
   <<	It's possible for fleet to sell you a car at or below book value, and
   <<	still get more for it than they could at auction.


I suspect DEC is not in the car disposal business at all. DEC doesn't own any of
these cars, the leasing company does.  I bought my last Plan A car from GE when
the lease expired, not from DEC.

	/Marvin

    re: -1
    
    I understand that DEC owns all of it's vehicles and GE merely handles
    the grunt work. In much the same way,DEC insures all vehicles itself
    with Lib. Mut. only handling the papers.
    
    Ken

    re .-1
    I'm not so sure that DEC does own them.  Take a look at the
    registration, the owner is GELCO.

    re:15 - I find the use of the phrase "for personal gain" implies that
    personal gain is somehow immoral or unethical. FLAME ON MILD SIMMER - Wake 
    up and smell the cost of living! When I hired in 6 years ago, the car plan
    was NOT just presented as "sales tool"! It was clearly presented as a 
    BENEFIT / compensation /"part of the package". The government also veiws 
    it as a source of "personal gain" as should be evident from the tax you must
    pay on the use that exceeds the $30 equalized value per week. Remember
    the fringe value quarly form? Surely planing family budget and
    making wise decisions based opportunities that are availble  is something
    that everyone should be doing in order to survive economically! These very
    decisions DO reasonably include purchasing the "old dec wreck" to either 
    keep or resell, thus all the prior comments in .14 apply. If you want to 
    see more of this logic (I doubt it), read 1151.53. Decisions to go on 
    plan A or B were also based in part on the "terms of the original contract"
    To position the car plan as a "sales tool" as opposed to a benefit, is
    just the kind of corporate "whitewashing" of the issue one would expect
    from a "first pass attempt personel statement"; but it does not reflect
    reality or compensation packages as they were presented! Let's face it, 
    the value of compensation package has dropped. Is it catastrophic? I hope
    not. Is it a case of "changing the rules after the game has started? No
    question about it.

    Taken from the US_FLEET page of VTX (Policies & Procedures:
    
     The use of a Company vehicle is a privilege, not a right,
              which may be denied, suspended or revoked.
     
              Under no circumstances may participation in a Company car
              plan be used as an inducement to employment nor as a part of
              any employee's compensation package.
    

                      <<< Note 1029.22 by FASDER::AHERB >>>
                           -< Benefit or Privilege? >-

>              Under no circumstances may participation in a Company car
>              plan be used as an inducement to employment nor as a part of
>              any employee's compensation package.
    
    I suggest this has as much bearing on reality as Santa Claus and the 
    Tooth Fairy.  Policy or no, participation in the car plan is a _de
    facto_ inducement to employment and part of an employee's compensation.
    
    Al
    

    Re:22
    
    I would also add that their was no such statement in the Fleet manual
    (or a fleet manual at all) when many of us hired into the company.
    For many years, the company car was a part of the inducement to come to
    work for DEC at a salary level less that the market was offering.  This
    is not to say I don't agree that the car is a tool for your work, but I
    do know that it was part of the reason I came to work here 15 years
    ago.
    
    
    

Re: .22

>    Taken from the US_FLEET page of VTX (Policies & Procedures:
>    
>     The use of a Company vehicle is a privilege, not a right,
>              which may be denied, suspended or revoked.
>     
>              Under no circumstances may participation in a Company car
>              plan be used as an inducement to employment nor as a part of
>              any employee's compensation package.
>    

Yes, and as I've said before, there are a number of people (myself included) who
were told during the hiring interviews to consider the company car as a 'perk'
equal to some $K (in 1980 I was told to consider it equal to $3-5K).  Now, I'm
wiser and understand that they shouldn't have said that to me.  But I accepted 
that information as true and at face value.

    My .02 is that the policies and procedures should be rewritten as when
    this statement was conceived there were no IRS guidelines, and no TAXES
    were extruded from ones paycheck at the end of the year. 
    As far as Im concerned its a privelege Im paying for and also being
    taxed on. Thus it should be considered as a "perk". 
    
    Mike

	... and that DEC was flat-out TOLD to do something about it a couple
of years ago.  Thus the "fair value adder" to your W-2! 

    The car plan was a major inducement used by everyone of the people that
    were at the COD job fair in Marlboro, trying to get experienced people
    to come out into the field.
    
    COD