Conference 7.286::digital

I think your assumption that "customers are being treated with suspicion" based
on your being asked for your badge is totally out of line.

To reach the conclusion you reached, I would have to see how an actual customer
is being treated.

/john

    Security at many facilities is VERY lax. Especially true in field
    offices. This has changed a lot in my neighborhood, but it took
    recognition of a serious problem to change it. 
    
    It seems that some of our competitors were just waltzing into the
    building (which, since it was leased space, had no security post
    in the lobby) and walking into the cafeteria (which is run by an
    outside contractor). All they had to do was come to DEC in the morning
    when employees were reporting to work and at lunch time, sit at
    a table for two and keep their ears open.
    
    They had a building full of DEC people who sat all around them swapping
    account information, future product strategies, and ... you name it.
    Fortunately for us, it wasn't long before someone recognized them for
    who they were. Security was tightened up immediately. Today, you need a
    badge to get past the lobby, a new cardkey system was installed,
    and all the locks were redone. 
    
    I say it's about time we started getting a little tighter on asking
    people for ID who are just walking around our buildings. 
    
    /se
    
                                                                          

        Customers are not supposed to wander around DEC facilities
        without an escort.  Period.  It happens anyway, sometimes.
        If you had been a customer wandering around without escort,
        I suspect the conversation would have been handled politely,
        and you would have been escorted back to the area where you
        were supposed to be.  (Customers and other visitors should
        have temporary visitor badges, or some other identification,
        and security should have a list of students, etc.)  If you'd
        been unable to explain your presence, I would expect you to
        be escorted to the door, possibly searched, and expelled.
        
        You'd be treated a lot worse by many other corporations.
        
        Tom

    Digital has always required customers to have visitor badges and
    escorts. You aren't seeing a manifestation of the "new Digital" here. 

    
    re .2
    
    what future product strategies? does DEC have those? 

    re: .0 Don't be silly.
    
    Andy

re: .0
    Just out of curiosity, how would you propose that a customer in your
   shoes should have been treated?

-Jack

        Damn, I hate this. It would appear that eith the author of .0 or
        the moderator(s) have decided that .0 is either answered or
        inappropriate, and have promptly deleted the base note. This now
        throws the context for the rest of us, who are interested in
        perhaps giving some feedback on the scenario.
        
        To the author of .0, If you have said something that is
        inappropriate, then apologize. If you are uncertain of the policy
        relating to something you have said then set the note hidden and
        consult a moderator, but don't just delete it.
        
        q
        

    Given the tone of the .1 reply, I'm not particularly surprised the
    author (I assume, perhaps incorrectly) of the base note deleted it.
    I've done that myself upon occasion, when I've decided the hassle of
    dealing with the replies is no longer worth the effort.

    The Moderators don't delete notes without making it clear they have
    done so.

>    The Moderators don't delete notes without making it clear they have
>    done so.


in this conf maybe... but its not so in all cases

    Speaking as a moderator of this conference, I can assure you that
    the author of the note was the person who deleted it.
    
    thanks
    
    Rick L
    
    DIGITAL moderator

>You'd be treated a lot worse by many other corporations.

You better believe it.  Or by rent-a-cops at a DEC Exhibit.

Once upon a time, the DEC demo area at DECUS was freely open to anyone with a
DEC badge.  Along about 1982 this changed.  One evening, I walked into the
exhibit area, showed my badge, signed the log, and went looking for people
I knew to see if anyone wanted to go to dinner.  The only people I found were
planning on working late, so I started to leave.

Rent-a-cop comes running around the corner and says "You didn't fill in the
column on the log with the booth number at which you were going to be working."

"That's because I wasn't going to a specific booth."

"You're not allowed in here.  Let me see some identification."

"I showed it to you when I came in.  My name is in the log.  I'm leaving, now."

"No you're not, you're going to spend the night in jail for trespassing."

"No, I'm leaving.  Goodbye."  Head toward exit.

Armlock on the ground for the next ten minutes until someone the security guard
will listen to shows up to release me.

/john

re : .-1

At which time you contacted the guards manager (captain) and promptly 
requested he be relieved of duty at *any*  DEC Exhibit, right?

Bob

    re 809.0, which I didn't see.. gee, how would you react if the points
    you made REALLY got trashed ?  I thought the replies were remarkably
    well-mannered.
    
    karl

>At which time you contacted the guards manager (captain) and promptly 
>requested he be relieved of duty at *any*  DEC Exhibit, right?

No.  Because strictly speaking, I really should have produced my badge.  He
continued to work all week.

I've just been reminded that it wasn't just an armlock.  There were handcuffs
involved as well.

/john

    re:
    
    < Note 809.4 by EAGLE1::EGGERS "Anybody can fly with an engine." >


>>    Digital has always required customers to have visitor badges and
>>    escorts. You aren't seeing a manifestation of the "new Digital" here. 


    Yes, and it's also true that Digital has always required employees to
    visibly wear their badges at all times. Most people don't - they get
    their badges out of their pockets/purses to show the guard or
    receptionist in the morning and then it goes straight back where it
    came from. 
    
    This being the case, it's pretty difficult to tell who is a customer
    without a badge or a contractor without a badge or an employee without
    a badge, especially if you work in one of our larger facilities where
    you may only know a small proportion of the building population by
    sight. 

    When I worked in the UK headquarters in Reading, I regularly used to
    see DECUS SIG people wandering about unescorted (and without badges).
    Some of these people were also contributors for the trade mags,
    sometimes writing abusive things about us and our products. One person
    in particular that I found wondering about very close to desks in the
    section of the building where the whole of UK Marketing sat, had
    at one point been banned from all UK DEC facilities for certian
    of his activities. I called the DECUS people and asked them to go
    get him. Most people in the building wouldn't have known him from,
    Adam but our paths had crossed several times both at DECUS and in
    other business-related situations.

    I also heard of an occaision when a new employee (i.e. just had the
    initiation pep talk) asked an un-badged person in UK HQ for his badge,
    only to find out that it was Geoff Shingles, UK Managing Director and
    Corporate VP. Geoff appologised and did put his badge on. Of course,
    this could just be local folklore but I rarely saw him without it after
    that. 
    
    What exactly was in .0 ? I'm dying to know if I'm talking about
    the original subject or not !
        

    Jon

    RE: .17  "Who goes there?"
                              
>    I also heard of an occasion when a new employee (i.e. just had the
>    initiation pep talk) asked an un-badged person in UK HQ for his badge,
>    only to find out that it was Geoff Shingles, UK Managing Director and
>    Corporate VP. Geoff appologised and did put his badge on. 

    It could also be folklore, but I heard a story recently about a new
    employee who was using her key card to get into the Mill on a Saturday
    morning when this fellow came along behind her and she wouldn't hold
    the door for him unless he showed her a badge.  The story goes that it
    was K.O. 
    
    

    I've just been told what the subject of the basenote was, so I have one
    thing to add to .17: I don't think I've ever managed to get entry into
    any European facility (even those where I was a sufficiently regular
    visitor to be recognised) without having to show my badge and sign in.
    In some places, it is even required to be collected although I suspect
    this has more to do with not getting lost than outright distrust. 
    
    I like the feeling of freedom I get when walking into any DEC building
    just by flashing (literally) my badge without any more formalities the
    way you can here in the New England facilities but it does strike me as
    pretty slack security practise. 
                                           
    One day it will change and go completely the other way and we'll all
    have card-access ceiling to floor toughened steel and plexiglass
    turnstiles like they have in some of the UK offices now. That's
    progress for you !! 
    
    Jon

FWIW, in our facility in Upstate NY (SYO), you have to have your card key
to get into the office area.  The lobby and formal conference rooms are 
open from 8-5, and there is a receptionist there, but to get beyond the
lobby, you have to use your card key.  All visitors must sign in, and if
for any reason they have to go into the back offices, they are escorted.

Now, SYO is pretty small, and Karen (the receptionist) knows EVERYBODY!
But you still have to use your card... she won't "click you in."

It works fine, and I've never heard anyone complain.  

Bob

    re:.13
    
    How did he get you onto the ground.  Sounds like we need to teach hand-
    to-hand combat in the Bedford Training facility.
    
    
                                                                           
    {Sorry, no offensive meant.  I just had to say this out loud.}

The only Atlanta Symposium I've been to was in 76, and back then the demo
area was open; we spent a long time hacking with Richie Lary late at night.

It was San Diego, so it must have been 80.

/john

P.S.: at my first DECUS, there were only about 400 attendees.  Now there are
quite a few more DEC attendees than that.

    re .17
    
    > Yes, and it's also true that Digital has always required employees to
    > visibly wear their badges at all times.
    
    That's not my understanding.  I don't recall being told that that is
    required of me.  Even a recent video made by corporate security shows
    an employee displaying his badge to the receptionist/guard and then
    putting it in his pocket.
    							Larry 

re: < Note 809.0 by  >
                              -< Loose Cannons? >-

The gist of .0 was as follows -

   The author of .0 was visiting another DEC facility and was walking in an
area on the 4th floor, not wearing his DEC badge. He was accosted by another
employee who asked to see his badge, which he then displayed. He asked for
the reason for such scrutiny and was told that there had been several problems
with customers walking through the area unescorted when they were in the
facility for meetings or presentations. The author was shocked to think that
we would potentially treat customers in such a fashion.

-Jack

    Asking for a badge was something I've done recently seeing somebody I
    didn't know mounting a tape . And guess what, it was a customer without
    an escort ! I've handcuffed him ( required some kung-fu tricks..),
    well, no, just asked him who he was working with and called the DEC guy
    to the computer room. 

    				wlodek

Re .24:

>    > Yes, and it's also true that Digital has always required employees to
>    > visibly wear their badges at all times.
>    
>    That's not my understanding.  I don't recall being told that that is
>    required of me. ...

"
Employee Photo Identification Badge Policy         Effective: 26-AUG-85
                                                   Section: 8.01
 Scope

 Worldwide

 Policy

 Digital's employee photo identification badge is driven by business
 needs and an industry standard providing a common sense approach
 protecting employees and Company property.  Digital requires
 employees to display their employee photo identification badge at
 all times while on Digital premises.
...
"
				/AHM

Ah, card keys.  I remember when the Colorado Springs CSC was located
on Chestnut Street and they put in the card key system and took the
guards away from all but the main entrance.  These card keys were 
the kind that you had to "click in" and "click out". If you forgot
to "click out" at night, you could NOT "click in" the next day and
had to go around (a LONG way around) to the main entrance if there
was no kind soul to let you in.  Well, we realized that everytime
we tried to "click in" a message came up on the hard-copy terminal
at the security guard desk, so if it was really cold or raining,
we'd "click in" a LOT of times until security got fed up with 
the messages and would let us in.

Liz

    Ah, yes, .... cardkey access!
    
    Facts to be added to the "folklore" column.  
    
    When a turnstile/cardkey access system was introduced into PKO1 (Parker
    Street in Maynard), I had the dubiously enjoyable task of meeting with
    every group within the building to explain in advance what was
    happening and why. The most memorable question came from a programmer
    who wanted to know if he got trapped in the turnstile, how long it
    would be before he ran out of air to breathe. 
    
    The turnstile was specifically designed to be large enough to allow
    field service personnel to get through while carrying their toolkits.
    It was later stated that while the turnstile was designed to ensure
    one-at-a-time controlled access, "two people could go through together
    if they were very small -- or very friendly."
    
    Despite assurances that either you'd be allowed access or not allowed
    access, but that you couldn't be "trapped" within the turnstile,
    we did have a mechanical malfunction with the mechanism that did
    indeed trap someone for about 10 minutes until someone could come
    and free the mechanism.
    
    There was indeed a very high level person (sorry, I forget who it
    was, but it wasn't K.O.) who was once challenged in the computer
    room by an operator to show his badge. He was at first indignant,
    but later realized the operator was indeed "doing the right thing"
    to be suspicious of strangers in the computer room.
    
    Oh well, back to work .....
    	/Marvin