Conference 7.286::digital

    As a tangent, in Engineering, your job is done when your wrok is
    complete. I have known people work 36+ hours to get something out of
    the door - but take time off in lieu afterward too.

re: .0
	It appears that you may have left out a very important point. Is
   the employee in question Wage class 1, 2, 3, or 4?
   Personally I don't know too much about the details of WC's 1-3 other
   than the fact that they are "non-exempt", which means not exempt from
   US overtime pay laws, i.e. they are entitled to overtime if they work
   more than their normal 8 hour shift, whereas wage class 4 personnel are
   salaried and thus exempt from the law, i.e. get no overtime pay regardless
   of how long they work.
   Now for WC's 1-3, depending on the facility and nature of the work, I would
   guess it may be somewhat up to the local management and work force as to
   what constitutes reasonable expectations for work outside of the normal
   shift before the conditions become inhumane/unsafe/etc. Certainly with
   economic conditions as questionable as they are, we have more than once
   seen corporate dictates that restrict all overtime work to emergency only
   situations. 
   For Wage class 4, as mentioned in .1, the expectation would normally be that
   one is around as needed to get the job done with the intention of compensa-
   ting later. In either case I would certainly hope that responsible manage-
   ment would not make unreasonable demands that could be health threatening.
   I don't know whether or not there are any US laws constraining the number of
   hours one can safely work, with the exception of certain occupations, e.g.
   truckers or others in the transportation industry.

   -Jack

    Given the current revenue shortfall, residents are expected to work
    24x7 if the customer will pay ;^)
    
    -dave (PSS in NYA)
    

< Note 776.3 by IND::BOWERS "Count Zero Interrupt" >
                       -< What the traffic will bear... >-

    Given the current revenue shortfall, residents are expected to work
    24x7 if the customer will pay ;^)
----^^^^

	Boy dave, you really get off easy in NY don't you!


re: .0

	This is a real problem. As a WC4, my manager expects me to be 
reasonable about the amount of time I work on problems. I can see this would 
be a particularly pointed problem for field service techs. I guess the 
question is, do you make more working overtime than working your regular 
shift (I am an economically oriented person).

    re .3:
    
    And how long will a customer pay for a wired out resident who is
    typing on any flat surface presented?  Not to mention the possibility
    for some *amazingly* expensive mistakes that DEC could be held
    responsible for if it were shown that our reps were being required
    to work unreasonable hours...
    
    There are easier ways to make a living.
    
    /Dave 

    I believe the writer of the base note wanted to know if there was
    a US wide policy concerning standby policy. There is a clear policy
    regarding compensation for overtime and standby but no clear direction
    on maximum hours to be worked or comp time granted for unscheduled
    offshift hours worked. I have worked in several Field Service offices
    with a different policy in each office, some quite liberal and others
    run like a boot camp. Standby is a fact of life in Field Service,
    large urban areas can mitigate this with shift coverage but for
    the majority of people it's just the way it is. Th standby pay is
    pretty good, one hour straight time for 8 hours standby, 16 hours
    for a typical 7 day standby, but it can be a tough way to make a
    buck. I never enjoyed the hassle of making the money but spending
    it was great. BTW I'm a Field Service manager now but still remember
    the plusses and minuses of WC3, plus=$, minus=hours of stress.

re: .2
I was referring to wage class 2 and 3 for the most part.


re: .4
I have no complaints about the way standby is paid, In fact I think that
is the only redeeming thing about it.
BUT that is not what I am looking for! There has been times when I have
worked 30 hours straight and had no complaints, about the pay.


re: .1 .3
Please don't turn this into a lets complain about long hours note, or a
I have to work long hours way can't you as that was not my focus or
was it my intent in my base note.



The problem is do we have any say as to how much we can take before we have
to go home and get some sleep? Or can management score you low on a P.A.
because after a week of 70 hours then on a Monday you work till midnight
and you tell your boss that you have to get some sleep or you are going
to fall over.
We have had people run off the road on there way home, after a long stint
of work. And would like to try to put some kind of a policy in place, to
set up some guide line for people to work under.


In my base note I asked if there is any policies or guide lines that
our committee can use as a starting point. I am NOT talking about a 
standby policies but a *Max hours* that the law will allow in the U.S.
or maybe a corporate guide line on what is *good business* in this area.

	Far be it from me to start a rathole (sure!), but this is 
	*exactly* the sort of thing that union contracts spell out.

	When I was a newspaper reporter, we had a company union, but 
	even so our contract required that we get a full day's pay if
	we were called back within 8 hours of leaving work.  (I got the
	pay once when a mobster was machine-gunned in my neighborhood. 
	I worked two hours, got paid for eight and got the next day off
	so they wouldn't have to pay me overtime.)

    Whether or not Digital has a policy, they are required to follow
    the local labor laws and policies of the states their offices
    are located in.
    
    NY and MA have pretty decent labor laws: for example, it is against
    the state labor laws of both those states to work more than 4 hours
    without a meal break. you dont HAVE to eat, but you are technically
    required to break from work. It does not mattter what wage class.
    
    I would contact the state labor board for the state your unit is
    located in, find out what the max legal hours/day , hours/week
    is. Look in the state govt section of your local phone book.

    I tried the exact same thing some years ago. While in training
    for the CAB SUNSET project I met with a safety person who was
    coming over to field service from logistics. We discussed this
    very problem and he was extreemly upset that these things do
    exist in the real world. He said, and I followed up several
    times, that he would pursue the issue. He did just that and the
    "policy" first got hung up in personel and hit the last snag
    in legal, which is where it stands.
    
    I've had a long standing gripe about the hours we as field engineers
    are "expected" to work, regardless of state of health, family
    committments or any other concern except fixing the boxes. I've
    had this since running a red light in Akron Ohio after being 
    onsite for over 24 hours and still facing a 2 hour drive home.
    Rember the "salary continuation program", you stay onsite until
    relieved on a DecService (or political) outage.                                  
    
    Wage Class has nothing (or should have nothing) to do with the
    safety aspects you are addressing.
    
    As a support engineer I talk with many engineers who have been 
    onsite much too long and they are starting to make mistakes, some
    of which could be fatal. I also lever the standby UM if I can when
    this becomes apparent, but I can only suggest.
    
    Unfortunately someday somebody is going to get killed working on
    equipment or traveling from site to site.
                                             
    Give a call on DTN 431-2796 for further info if you want...
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Dick
    

Re: .9

Gee, is there a state-mandated bedtime, too?

				-- Bob

>Gee, is there a state-mandated bedtime, too?

Be glad you don't live in Munich.  A friend of mine decided to take a few hours
off on a nice afternoon and then came back in to work that evening to finish up
some work.

A works council member (sort of like a union steward) came in and told her that
she should not be working so late.

Permission from personnel is required to be in the building outside of your
normal working hours.

/john

re .12:

This is true John but have you ever asked why? I'll answer for you, it's 
because, in the past,it was difficult to progress in the company unless you 
put in long hours, which is clearly wrong.

Dave.

Re .10:

Have you read Personnel Policy 6.33 (Incapacitated Employee)?
				/AHM

re: .9
Thanks I will get in touch with the state, But should not Digital have this
kind of info? I asked our personal office and they said they did not know
of any laws or anything.

re: .14
Thanks for the info about Orange book Policy 6.33, I went off in vtx and read
that section as well as any other on safety. But 6.33 is more for the case
of if a person becomes ill or otherwise Incapacitated. What we are looking
for is much more subtle than that, More along the line of falling asleep
at the wheel on your way home type of a setup.

re: .10
I will send VaxMail for your info, as I work 3rd shift, and I do not
have DTN.


Please does any one else have Info on this issue?

>< Note 776.13 by SHAPES::KERRELLD "and without utensils" >
> This is true John but have you ever asked why? I'll answer for you, it's 
> because, in the past,it was difficult to progress in the company unless you 
> put in long hours, which is clearly wrong.

Huh?  How or why is it wrong to preferentially reward the people who work 
the hardest and go beyond their required tasks?
It may be wrong to REQUIRE 10 or 12 hour days, but it can't be wrong to LET
people do that to advance themselves.  (Pathalogical workaholics are another
matter.)

- tom]

    re.16
    
    "it can't be wrong to let..."
    
    I take issue with this a little. It sure can be wrong to let
    someone work extended hours, particulary when he has not had the
    rest that HIS or HER body requires to be alert. Please bear in mind
    that we in the field are working on live systems, connected to very
    real very hot mains. 
    
    I do not know where or what groups some of the replies come from
    but here in the field stand by and overtime are a way of life.
    What is in question is how much is too much. Any solution has to
    meet the needs of the individuals doing the work and the business
    goals of the districts.
    
    ..ds
    

RE:.16

    I can think of two reasons for having a problem with this method for
    promotions.  First, why should long hours equal quicker promotions? 
    Second, how do you reward people who do eight hours of work in eight
    hours when all the promotions go to people who put six hours of real
    work in ten hours?

    I once worked for a company that made long hours a semi-requirement for
    getting promoted.  Some people figured out that coming in just before
    the boss (who like to get in at 9:00) and leaving around 6:30 PM made
    it look like they were working long hours.  One of the people who came
    in at 7:00 AM and left by 5:00 PM was passed over because he didn't
    appear to put in the extra hours.

    What does this all have to do with working at Digital?  I believe that
    rewards should be based on what you do, not on how many hours you spend
    at the office.  If we "value the differences" as a company, then
    rewards will equal accomplishments and not hours.  Whether I can do my
    job in eight hours or ten hours or 12 hours,  what I do is more
    inportant than how long (assuming that we are talking an exempt
    position.)  Time at the office is the least important parameter for
    rewards.

    IMHO,
    Lee G.

    I don't think it really has much to do with hours, per se.  It's
    all in what you accomplish.
    
    Good people will outperform bad or mediocre people.  Good people
    who work long hours will accomplish more than good people who don't.
    Promotions and salary are roughly determined by accomplishments,
    and I can think of no logical reason why that should not be.
    
    Is there any reason why it isn't that simple?
    
    Al
    

I made the comment of "how can it be wrong..." in reaction to the 
reaction to John Covert's observation about the person in Munich(?)
to whom it was suggested that working off- or longer hours was a bad idea.
Any manager who promotes based solely on hours worked is a fool.
My apparently naive comment was based on the assumption that somebody
should be allowed to work longer hours to get more or better work done,
thereby increasing his or her worth to the Company, and being suitably
rewarded for it.
I oppose the idea that we should strive for mediocrity so as not
to compete with one another, which was the idea I saw behind the comments
John  reported.

I was not speaking of the required on-call and overtime hours reported
in the base note, nor of alllowance to let someone obviously past
his capacities to work or travel safely.

- tom]

    re:the "state mandated bedtime" reaction to my reply:
    
    I really hate over-regulation, but in this case a law like that
    protects ALL of us from unreasonable or unsafe demands.
    
    re: personnel's response that they were unaware of these labor related
    laws:
    
    Call the state and ask them. If they tell you that such laws exist,
    educate the personnel person you spoke to.
    
    Im 99% certain that they DO exist in both Ma and NY. If Im wrong,
    please let me know.
    
    Rick

Re: .21

Rick, as far as I'm concerned, the overtime hours I work should be *my* choice,
not the state's choice and not even DEC's choice.  Silly rules are made to be
broken...

				-- Bob

Re .15:

I re-read your base note, and policy 6.33 is indeed not relevant if you are
merely devising overtime rules which address issues of fairness.

However, it sounds like you share Dick Stuart's concern in .10 that no employees
work until they are so tired that they are in danger of harming themselves.  If
so, perhaps you should further investigate the intended scope of the policy, and
recommend changes to it.
				/AHM

    Once, long ago, when I had been working over 24 hours, Gordon Bell
    absolutely insisted I not drive home. He called a cab to drive me home.
    DEC paid.

    re.24
    
    Tom,
    
    We both know that was a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far
    away. :-)
    
    Whole different company than it was 12-15 years ago!!
    
    ..ds

RE .24/25:

If I worked 24 hours I would take a taxi and charge it without asking 
permission! I would then wait for the official apology...

Dave.

    I will try one last time.
    Does anyone out there know someone in legal or in corp. That has
    ever seen any thing in writing on this issue?

    I just checked the P&P manual and couldn't actually find anything.
    There's any amount of information about normal hours, special work
    weeks, breaks, and overtime compensation, but apparently nothing about
    how much time you're entitled to between shifts.  My sense is that if
    you're Exempt and not in certain professions (e.g., airline pilot),
    then your work schedule is an ER issue between you and your supervisor.
    
    Now, there may be state laws or OSHA regulations that would put an
    upper bound on how many hours in 24 you can be made to work, but I
    could detect no reference to them in the P&P.      
                                                   
    						=maggie
    

    (as a manager, my call would be that any large chunk of time worked
    would call for at least 12 free hours thereafter.  In other words, if
    you worked from Tuesday at 11 pm til Wednesday at 1 am, I certainly
    wouldn't expect to see you before noon on Wednesday and maybe not even
    until Thursday morning depending on how often your life had got
    disrupted that way in the recent past.  Of course, I'm in engineering;
    maybe if I were managing a Field operation things would look different,
    who knows.) 

        RE: .27 -- Ken, so far no one has come forward with anything. Have
        you addressed this request, in writing, to your group's legal and
        personnel representatives?  Are there people from both groups on
        your committee?  Have you worked your way up the management chain
        using the "Open Door" policy? 
        
        I get the impression that you work in Field Service.  Have you
        asked in FINALY::FIELD_SERVICE?  Have you written a memo to the
        U.S. Field Service VP posing the question, and asking for
        clarification? 
        
        I realize it's easier to ask in a Notes conference, but if you
        really want to get an opinion that will hold water if it's
        questioned, you need to get it through "official" channels. 
        
        Tom

Re: .28

>    (as a manager, my call would be that any large chunk of time worked
>    would call for at least 12 free hours thereafter.  In other words, if
>    you worked from Tuesday at 11 pm til Wednesday at 1 am, I certainly
>    wouldn't expect to see you before noon on Wednesday and maybe not even
>    until Thursday morning depending on how often your life had got
>    disrupted that way in the recent past.

Not a bad benefit for 2 hours of work!

				-- Bob