Conference 7.286::digital

    I've been here 24 years. Would they really give me $240K plus
    2-years' salary? I have my doubts.

       I'll take it!!!
                                                   Denny

    If .1 and I took that offer,DEC would be shelling out almost a half
    million not counting salaries...and that's just two employees.
    I don't think the corporation's board would go for it.

    
    If IBM can do it why not DEC................
    
    With my 15yrs. I'd Take it and run..........' No Checks please '
    
    					MAC
    

 This afternoon on WEEI Am 590, they mentioned that DEC is planning an 
early retirement program.  They said it was a cost cutting measure that 
would not help DEC with all of the competition from SUN Microsystems.


Reggie

    Digital might offer early retirement, but I'd be *VERY* surprised
    if the offer were as generous as .0 described.  If it is, y'all
    better be ready to get in line behind me!!!  (^:
    
    						Pat (the other Resende)

    Here is a portion of the article.  It is in _Management Information
    Systems Week_, 8/15/88 issue.
    
    DEC MAY ASK UP TO 10,000 TO TAKE EARLY RETIREMENT
    
    by Bill Dooley
    
    Chelmsford, Mass.--Digital Equipment Corporation, which has historically
    had a 'no layoff' policy may soon implement 'an early retirement
    program' which could reduce its workforce by as many as 10,000.
    
    A spokesperson for DEC denied early retirement rumors, saying only,
    "Digital has no plans to institute an early retirement program."
    
    "Digital is more worried than it looks," said Robert Randolph, a
    leading DEC watcher with Technology Financial Services, Inc. (TFS)
    here.  "While DEC is less likely to shoot itself in the foot than
    many of its competitors, it is at a tender period in its life."
    
    "We are not sure whether or not it has gotten beyond the rumor
    stage or not, but we are anticipating that DEC will offer early
    retirement in the near future, so that they can get rid of some
    dead wood," Randolph said, adding, "for some time DEC has had a
    policy of promoting people who have not been doing a very good job
    and, with its no lay-off policy, they would have had to have commit
    an unpardonable offense in order to get fired."
    
    Randolph then said the use of the phrase 'dead wood' might have
    been a little sharp, but added, "DEC's philosophy of no layoffs
    has tended to build up a lot of people and some are not germane
    to the mainstream of business."

    When asked how many at DEC might be affected by the early retirement
    program, if it is put in place, Randolph said, "The number we have
    been hearing is in the area of 10,000."
    
    
                     ...
    
    
                     ...
    
    

 ...

While DEC said that it would explain the full [Job Evaluation and
Reclassification] program "over the next several months," no further
public comments on the program were released by DEC, giving rise to
the speculation that this suspected early retirement program may
be the first results of the JEC program.    
    
...      
    
    

re .8:

>              " Randolph said, adding, "for some time DEC has had a
>    policy of promoting people who have not been doing a very good job

So that's what I'm doing wrong :-)

I think the article is pure speculation and not very good speculation at 
that.

Dave.

    Re .10
    
    I totally agree ...... and early retirement packages don't necessarily
    get rid of 'dead wood' either -- that's the biggest problem with
    them........
    
    Vicki
    

    I've only heard the early-retirement rumor from sources outside
    DEC, so I think it is all speculation.  A lot of engineers and other
    people the company can ill afford to lose would be tempted by an
    offer that generous.  For example, I could take my 12+ years worth
    of "retirement" money, walk half a mile further from home than I
    walk now, and be an engineer at Stratus (where I know a lot of people,
    many of them former DEC people) on Monday.  I'm not saying that
    DEC couldn't afford to lose ME, but even *I* might be tempted by
    such an easy way to make money.  With my real retirement at least
    30 years away, I could build up retirement funds at some other company
    in the meantime.  And all that cash might make me feel better about
    my DEC stock...
    
    By the way, things may not be all that rosy at SUN; my boss's new
    boss (starts next week) is someone we hired away from Sun.
               

What would the tax implications be?  If it were all claimed as income in the
first year, wouldn't that go towards the National debt rather than the future
of the retiree?

Betty               

    Move to New Hampshire and take it this year, before the Federal taxes
    go up (unless you believe Michael and George). 

    
    I doubt if we'd learn from history but I was doing some work for DuPont
    (and my wife is ex-DuPonter) just after they purchased Conoco. They
    were really hurting for awhile (still had plenty of cash but their bond
    rating went down one step) and started offering an early retirement
    program. If I remember correctly they didn't offer cash, they offered
    years of service. So, if you retired you'd have 1 year added for every
    5 actually worked or something like that. So, for someone with over
    20 years it worked out real well. Under that, it wasn't that great.
    
    After it was all said and done, DuPont ended up hiring many of them
    back as consultants.
    
    -Ray
    

    re> .13
    
    I make so littel I could declare it as a crapital gain!

    I believe such a distribution can be rolled over into an IRA and
    not be taxable until it is actually withdrawn.

>    I believe such a distribution can be rolled over into an IRA and
>    not be taxable until it is actually withdrawn.

    ... at which point it would be taxed at the then-current rate, probably
    about 50%.  But don't worry, it won't be worth very much anyway.
    
    All sarcasm aside, maybe it's time to reconsider Gordon Bell's idea
    of a "no output department".  Transfer all the dead wood into N.O.D.,
    encourage them to NOT come to work, and cut their salaries every year
    until they get discouraged and find gainful employment elsewhere.

    The way I heard the rumor is that your age + your years of service
    must equal 75 or greater to be elgible.
    

>   The way I heard the rumor is that your age + your years of service must
>   equal 75 or greater to be elgible. 

    Let's see...
    
    I think Grace Hopper would qualify :-}

    Since Digital has only been here 31 years, nobody under the age
    of 44 would qualify.  The formula seems to weigh age too heavily.
    Grace Murray Hopper would qualify, as .20 states, even though she
    has been with the company only a short time.  However, I'm only
    43, so I would not qualify for another 10 years (I started in 1975).
        John Sauter

>< Note 598.21 by SAUTER::SAUTER "John Sauter" >

>    Since Digital has only been here 31 years, nobody under the age
>    of 44 would qualify.  

It's worse than that, since to have been here 31 years and be under 44 years
old would mean you'd have to have been no more than 13 years old when you
started withthe Company!
Roughly speaking, a "75" plan would seem to be targeted at DECcies 
over, say, 50.

WELL I HAVE HEARD TWO FORMULAS!
    
    1. AGE PLUS YEARS WITH DEC EQUAL 62.
    
    2. THIS IS THE MOST RECENT.  YEARS WITH DEC PLUS AGE PLUS 10 EQUAL
    55.
    
    NOW THE SECOND WOULD REALLY ALLOW DEC TO GET RID OF THE DEAD WOOD.
    SEEMS LIKE THIS ONE MAKES MOST SINCE.
    
    AND ALSO MONEY FORMULA WAS   TWO YEARS SALARY PLUS ONE MONTHS SALARY
    FOR EACH YEAR WITH DEC.
    
    

	I qualify under the second rumor.  This one would SEEM to target the
people hired from '68-'76, roughly. I came in in '76 after 7+ years as a USAF
officer.

	Hmm, two years salary + 12+ years = 3 years salary.  I could actually 
afford to re-activate my Air Force commission and retire from there in 13 
years!  :>) :>) :>) :>) :>) :>) :>) :>) :>) :>) :>) :>) :>) :>) :>) :>) 

Believe THAT and I have some land east of Daytona Beach to sell you!

>    NOW THE SECOND WOULD REALLY ALLOW DEC TO GET RID OF THE DEAD WOOD.
>    SEEMS LIKE THIS ONE MAKES MOST SINCE.
                                    ^^^^^
        I think you will get some argument on that one whoever you are.

        (Since when?)

Are these rumors just wild speculation or are they based on some 
believable inside information.  If they are simply rumors, it would
be a good idea for the company to make a strong statement denying
them so everyone can get back to work instead of sitting around
figuring out what to do with all the money they're going to get.

    ONLY FROM THE DEADWOOD THEMSELVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        This is probably just rumors.  Perhaps there should be a "RUMORS"
        conference (maybe on node RUMOR::?).  The fact that lots of
        different "formulas" are being bandied about suggests that it's
        wishful thinking, at best. 
        
        If it were the objective of the corporation to get rid of "dead
        wood", then I seriously doubt that it would be done on the basis
        of age discrimination, or years with the company.  That would make
        very little sense, and probably wouldn't fly with K.O., who is
        both one of the older employees and has been with the company
        longest.  
        
        Tom

    It would seem to me that *if* Digital were ever to propose a variant
    of the many rumored plans being bantered about, the only real gain
    would be a possible buy-off of pension benefits.
    
    If they offered lump sums like this for people to retire *in exchange
    for giving up pension benefits*, it might reduce cost in the long term
    (Note: this is my speculation alone and I am certainly not an expert
    on these things -- I couldn't even tell you if an offer like that
    would be legal).
    
    Dead wood doesn't come with years of service.  I've seen dead wood
    hired fresh from the outside.  :^(
    
    Maybe some of you "old-timers" are rocking the boat a little too
    much for the "new DEC"?  ;^)
    
    All-in-all, I'm afraid that all this speculation is useless without
    any "real" facts.  This whole rumor may be some analyst's conclusion
    based on "well, IBM is cutting the workforce, so now DEC needs to".
    
    Well, on to something productive (or at least less speculative 8^)...

        Yesterday afternoon was the Educational Services Quarterly
        Forum.  Pat Cataldo, Vice-President of Educational Services,
        was asked about the rumor.
        
        He said he'd been at a meeting in the morning when this
        subject came up.  (I don't remember the exact committee,
        but it was a "high" one.)  He also said that they were
        told that no such plan was being considered.
        
Jim Stratton
        

See LIVE WIRE.  A news item entered today deals with this rumor.

        Here is the text, extracted from the Southern NH Live Wire:
        
                 -< Ken discusses stock price, other matters >-


At a recent officers' luncheon, Ken Olsen, president, addressed several rumors 
and misconceptions regarding Digital.  He emphasized the importance of making 
sure that employees know how the company is really doing.  The following is a 
summary of his remarks:

     Early retirement rumor:  "Somebody in the press speculated that we 
     are planning an early retirement program.  This is wrong.  We 
     hired engineers, software people, and a large number of sales 
     specialists to develop our position in the high-end commercial 
     market.  We also have had major projects to secure a major 
     segment for us in the desktop computer business.  In both of 
     these areas, we've been a major player, but we plan to be much 
     more significant.  These investments are working out very well.  
     We are very enthusiastic about them, and the idea of cutting the 
     staff because somebody suggested it is absolutely ridiculous.

     "Somebody in the press also made a connection between our Job 
     Evaluation and Classification (JEC) Project and the rumor about 
     early retirement.  That's dead wrong.  Rather than being a way to 
     get rid of people, as that person suggested, JEC is part of our 
     effort to make sure we properly value our people and their work 
     -- so we can keep them and attract more good people, as we need 
     them.  JEC is a huge effort, something we've needed to do for a 
     long time.  And once it's done, it should last us for a good 
     while." 

     Stock price:  "People ask why the price of our stock has fallen so 
     low.  Although our profit and our growth continue to outpace the 
     industry, our profit margin is down from what it was a year ago.  
     And, unfortunately, investors tend to focus on the short term and 
     downward trends, rather than see the underlying goodness and 
     value of what we're doing.  
        
     "There are many reasons why profit is down.  First, we set out to 
     sell a lot of high-end products last year, and customers didn't 
     buy as many of them as we had anticipated.  Fortunately, they 
     bought our workstations and other low-end systems instead.  Also, 
     we've been making major investments at both the high end and the 
     low end.  These investments temporarily reduce profits, but are 
     important for the future strength and growth of the company.  

     "So our profit is down.  But when you consider the investments 
     we're making, we're doing very well."

     Conclusion:  "We have some problems.  We always have and always 
     will.  But we do so many things so right.  We shouldn't let the 
     problems be the messages that get out to the outside world.  We 
     have so many good things going for us, so many exciting products, 
     so much fun coming this fall." 

Boy, he sure knows how to kill a good rumor.  I guess it got pretty out
of hand for Ken to comment on it.

		Dave

    Well, it sounds like this may be back alive again.
    
    Was just speaking with another employee who has heard that there
    is a retirement plan starting - few specifics available, they are:
    
    	o eligible if your age + years service = 55
    	o benefit amount is 2 months salary per year of service
    	o being offered to people in manufacturing
    
    Has anyone heard anything more substantial or detailed?

Yes, the rumour is very active again, and still claimed at DEC's highest levels
to be false.  Ken may have to make another personal statement.

It seems DIGITAL REVIEW was planning to publish a story in their March 13th
issue stating that Digital plans to implement an early retirement program in
August 1989.  Their sources have provided them with specific details on elements
of the program, such as severance pay, return options, health insurance contin-
uation, outplacement assistance, early retirement guidelines, etc.

DIGITAL REVIEW was notified by Corporate Public Relations that there is no truth
to their story, but they feel more confident about their sources than about what
our public relations folks are telling them, and last I heard, still planned to
run the story.  (Has anyone seen it?  I don't read DIGITAL REVIEW.)

Digital's Investor Relations group is receiving calls from analysts  also asking
about such an early retirement program.  Although there have been suggestions
that this may be part of a ploy to manipulate the stock price, I don't trust any
prediction which indicates that the stock would definitely go up or down -- it
could go up because we'd be cutting costs -- it could go down because it
indicates trouble.  Wall Street is not necessarily rational.

/john

    I used to kind of enjoy "Digital Review" (anyhow, you get what you pay
    for - it comes free), especially when the previous person did the
    "Charlie Macto" column - you could actually read stuff in there that
    turned out to be correct and that you didn't know before - but the
    current guy doing that column doesn't know anything interesting anyhow.
    John, if you want, you can read my copy, but I think I won't bother
    filling out the freebie card next time they send me one - it's not
    really worth reading anymore, even given that it comes for free.
    
    (John COVERT::Covert is in the cube next to mine, anyhow.)
    
    I saw the disclaimer mail about the "early retirement" rumor today,
    also.  I don't know how the stock market will react (either to the
    rumor in the form of a "Digital Review" article, or to the disclaimer)
    - as you say, the market isn't a rational animal.
    
    
    /Charlotte

>    I saw the disclaimer mail about the "early retirement" rumor today,
>    also.  I don't know how the stock market will react (either to the
>    rumor in the form of a "Digital Review" article, or to the disclaimer)
>    - as you say, the market isn't a rational animal.
    
    Free speech or unfair business practice?  Are they trying for the best
    journalistic practices or going for a hype story?
    
John

My copy of the March 13 issue of Digital Review came today, but I didn't
find anything in it about a retirement plan.

Martin.

    Well, as long as we are tossing rumors around about early retirement
    here is what I'm hearing:
    
    DEC is over staffed...#'s I've heard are from 7000-30000.
    Plans are to close a bunch of MFG plants.
    Early Retirement books are already printed and in Northboro.
    The formula is...at least 40 yrs old.  Take your age + yrs of service
    + 5 and if it equals 70 bingo!  You get to take one of 3 options.
    It is voluntary and will be company wide.
    
    THIS IS ALL RUMOR...but I'm hearing the same story from a lot of
    people.

       
       
       	Jack Smith said the company is too young at this time to offer a
       serious early retirement program. Re-training is the current plan.
       
       							mike

    RE: .40
    
>    The formula is...at least 40 yrs old.  Take your age + yrs of service
>    + 5 and if it equals 70 bingo!      
    
    Shouldn't it be
    
{    The formula is...at least 40 yrs old.  Take your age + yrs of service
{    and if it equals 65 bingo!
    
    - Vikas

>     	Jack Smith said the company is too young at this time....

Does anybody have profiles of employee age, years of service, or such.
Just for background....

- tom]

        RE: .40, .42 -- As Vikas points out, the rumor in .40 makes about
        as much sense as most such rumors make. 
        
        If the booklet is really in Northboro, what's the order number?
        
        Tom

Have you ever noticed that whenever there's a rumor going around the
office about, such as a manager is going to leave, that the manager in
question is the one who is them most disliked?   Rumors tend to reflect
wishful thinking so it sounds like there must be a lot of people out
there who are ready to jump at the chance at early retirement. 

Sorry to disapoint ya'll but I am quite confident that there will be no
early retirement any time soon.  Early retirement is not a cost
effective way to reduce the work force.  Talk about dead wood!  If there
were early retirement then DEC would be paying thousands of able bodied
people to play golf or work at a competitor.  Early retirment can be
disasterous to a companies operations (remember duPont).

I've seen the early retirement rumor about DEC every year for at least
six years.  The same goes for the one about AT&T taking over DEC.  If no
one can come up with a better rumor than these to spread around then
we're and sad shape.  Try something like "I heard the ZKO facility is
going to be renamed the Mother Theresa Corporate Engineering Center".

John

P.S. About that rumor about DEC offering two years salary and $12,000 to
anyone who quits...It's true so I'll see you all on the beaches at St.
Thomas in January. 

Re .43

>Does anybody have profiles of employee age, years of service, or such.
>Just for background....

	This may be a year out of date, but these were the last "DEC
statistics" that I saw:

                            DEC FACTS


o  10% OF DEC'S PEOPLE ARE IN ENGINEERING

o  26% OF DEC'S PEOPLE ARE IN MANUFACTURING THIS NUMBER IS DECLINING
   BY 5% EVERY 3 YEARS

o  SALES, SERVICE AND MARKETING = MOST OF CORPORATION

o  38% OF PEOPLE ARE OUTSIDE USA

o  123,762 PEOPLE

o  50% OF OUR REVENUE COMES FROM OUTSIDE OF THE USA

o  WE ARE #38 IN FORTUNE "500" CO.

o  DEC IS BASED IN 80 OR 90 COUNTRIES

o  1/2 OF ALL OF DEC HAS BEEN IN THE COMPANY UNDER 5 YRS

o  AVE AGE OF DEC EMPLOYEES IS 37

o  IN U.S. DEC'S (1 OUT OF EVERY 4) IS IN THEIR 30'S

o  7% OF U.S. HAS 1 HUSBAND, NON-WORKING WIFE AND 2 CHILDREN

o  COLLEGE GRADS ARE NOT IN 20'S BUT 30"S, MANY ARE WOMEN 

o  33,00 PEOPLE IN MASSWORK FOR DEC.  DEC IS LARGEST EMPLOYER IN 
   MASS.  

o  12,000 PEOPLE IN N.H. WORK FOR DEC

o  50,000 IN NEW ENGLAND WORK FOR DEC

o  70,000 IN THE U.S.A. WORK FOR DEC

o  THE CALIFORNIA EMPLOYEES WANT PHONES IN THEIR CARS AND WOULD
   LIKE TO WORK OUT THEIR HOMES AS THE AVERAGE SPEED ON HIGHWAYS
   TO AND FROM WORK IS ONLY 33 MPH BECAUSE OF EXCESSIVE TRAFFIC, 
   THEREFORE MUCH VALUABLE TIME IS LOST IN THE COMUTE TO AND FROM WORK.  

    Apparently, our competition seems to think that early retirement
    is a very effective way to reduce staffing.  IBM is going through
    another round of it right now.  They are offering two years pay,
    plus 25K, plus 2500 for retraining, plus insurance coverage for
    two years.
    
    I think people need to listen more carefully to what Jack Smith
    said and didn't say.  He denied there were plans for early retirement.
    He denied there would be lay-off's ".....in the classical sense,
    where you get a pink slip and the address of the unemployment office."
    
    What he did not deny is  that there would be some form of lay-off's.
    
    My personal opinion is that he had no choice but to deny early retire-
    ments at this time.  Word games are being played.  There will clearly
    be some form of "incentive" to leave Digital.
    
    As to the "retraining" thing.  He mentioned at least twice that
    people would be retrained for employment "at other companies".
    
    I think we are in for a very interesting year.  As for me, I would
    accept an early retirement package in about 7 milli-seconds.  My
    only decision would be rather or not I want to clean out my desk!
                                                                     

Ok, say early retirement does occur, and the best and the brightest
do go. What companies would/should they go to? Where would I, uh I mean
they, send their resumes to?

Where could we find a DEC-like environment? Just curious.

    Hewlet Packard.

    Is Alliant still going? They certainly started out with a bunch of
    ex-DECcies, like Stan Rabinowitz.
    
    Andy

Alliant is still going, but had a major layoff.  Stan no longer works there.

/john

    
    I for one would be out the door, and on a plane to Thailand just
    as fast as I could pack my cameras, and my wife could pack her
    clothes... And no I don't want to work for a DEC-like environment,
    I just want to write and illustrate a book about Thailand...
                                         
    Perhaps they could give me a VAXstation and some WYSIWYG desk-top
    publishing software as a 'golden handshake' to make writing the
    book easier... ?
    
    /. Ian .\

    You missed the point .48, most people who would qualify wouldn't
    want to go anywhere but into an active interesting retirement.
    
    .....and by the way, don't get so hung-up on a DEC-like environment.
    I think the environment is a major contributor to our present
    productivity problem.  There are plenty companies around providing
    an equal or better environment; perhaps the only difference being
    you might be expected to really work.

    Who's to say that DEC can't re-hire a retiree when their needs turn
    around?  I'm not sure if one could vest a whole new pension plan
    within DEC, though.
    

    >>    .....and by the way, don't get so hung-up on a DEC-like environment.
    >>I think the environment is a major contributor to our present
    >>productivity problem.  There are plenty companies around providing
    >>an equal or better environment; perhaps the only difference being
    >>you might be expected to really work.
      
    
    Wow! You must be working for a different company than I ...
    
    Scooter

>> you might be expected to really work.

Sounds like someone who doesn't have enough of a challenge in their job...

Bob

    Here we go again, but I have to ask...............
    
    I heard that an early retirement incentive plan was announced today in
    Salem NH.  I hate to start rumors and would like to stop it if it's
    false.  Can anyone in Salem help me out?!  I don't want to detail what
    I heard, just want to hear if there is any validity in the plan.
    
    Thanks..............Vicki

	  If you don't want to start rumours, then don't start
	rumours. How's that? Don't you think that, if such a program
	*were* implemented, it would be announced somewhere? Maybe
	not within a matter of hours, but certainly a matter of
	days. 

	Roy

    re .58
    
    Quite a bit of the "announced" stuff never makes it through the
    "official" distribution channels.  Not in hours, days, or months.
    Should we wait to see it announced before we can ask about it?  This
    company would die if that policy were enforced.

    RE: .58
    	My but we are nieve.....
    
    	A few years ago we did the exact same thing in Phoenix. We made
    incentives available to certain folks to leave the company. It was
    announced in PNO only. It was a local situation. The same is probably
    quite likely to happen in Salem as well with the situation there.
    Only this time there's a lot of interest by every one else because
    of the economic situation we're in.  FWIW - you probably won't get
    an answer from Salem because the folks that would be effected are
    too busy trying to find jobs elsewhere.
    

    I really debated on putting that question in this file, because I knew
    what the responses would be like .... and I was right!
    
    Sorry for the inconvenience!
    
    Vicki

    REF .57
    
    I attended one of the TMP meetings today at Salem and there was no
    mention of a early retirement incentive plan or any other type of take
    the money and run plan. There were a lot of disapointed people there
    who were waiting for the early take the money and run package that had
    been rumored to be in the offering for that days meeting.
    The only things discussed were the different types of programs that are
    being formulated to help the people in TMP find gainfull employment
    within DIGITAL. That's all fokes nothing else - so much for the rumor
    mill.
    
    Jan
    

  
      From what I could gather the plan is ready but there is reluctance
    to implement it.
    Sounds like they're waiting for more fallout from "Career Days"
    and other such options. 
    My personal opinion is they'll have to do something later this quarter
    if they feel they have to show head count reduction in the numbers
    for Wall Street. There appears to be a real push to get more folks
    into sales/sales support and show the customers we're listening
    to their complaints. If we can do this and reduce head count without
    spending the money to early retire folks the numbers will impress
    both the customers and Wall Street. If we "early retire" 4000 people
    under the proposed plan it *could* cost in the range of $200 million
    dollars off the bottom line (assumes average annual salary of 25K).
    That might appear as panic on our part. 
    

    In the early retirement plan, years on international relocation will
    count double. The same system was already tested by French Government
    for employees in former colonies.


    [ Now, how about this true rumor ? ]

    Does anyone know the details yet about who qualifies, etc?
    
    Mary

re .66:

>    I can tell you the details about the program which was killed by
>    the Exec.committee:   TMP people were to be eligible to take an
>    incentive to leave the company, consisting of:  40 wks. pay + 3
>    weeks pay for each year more than five + full benefits for one year.
    
    
>                                                     History shows us
>    that when incentives to leave are offered, you lose mostly two classes
>    of employee:  1. The young and talented, and 2. The older, long-time
>    employees.

    I was under the impression that most of the people in TMP were
    excess manufacturing people who are having problems getting
    non-manufacturing assignments.  If they're such valuable employees,
    why haven't other departments snapped them up?

    Retire on a $75,000 windfall?   HA!!

    Wonder why IBM did it then?  Big Blue isn't known for stupidity.
    
    A friend in Boca Raton who works for IBM told me that they figured
    they would save a lot of money (in benefits, especially health care
    and salary paid until retirement) and still retain their reputation 
    as a people company while successfully cutting down their headcount.
    Their package was extremely generous as well, and the company still
    made out.
    Different philosophies I guess.
    
    Mary

      ...and IBM also ended up hiring a lot of those same people back
    as 'consultants' because they lost too much of their semiconductor
    expertise.
      Polaroid also made the same mistake. More people left than what
    they had foreseen, thus leaving them short in vital areas.
                                               Denny 

    I don't know if this applies to I*M, but GTE offered retirement
    incentives about four years ago.  They  will probably never do it again.  
    As stated a few replies back, they lost the talented workers and not the 
    fat in the corp.  My father was one of the people who left after over 
    forty years with the company and they begged him to stay.  Many of the
    top managers in the corporation left, many plants were stripped of all
    the top managers, many who found jobs somewhere else.  They are now
    collecting a fat retirement check, or they may have taken the very
    generous lump sum, and collecting a paycheck from their new employer.  

    
    In my opinion, retirement incentives is the way management can get out
    of making the hard decisions, like firing people.  Nobody likes to put
    people out of work, it is probably one of the most difficult decisions
    a manager may have to make in his entire career.  But, that is part of
    a managers job, he has to look into the future and decide his manpower
    needs and surround himself with good people. If a person doesn't work
    out a good manager will try to work with that person, work all the
    alternatives with that employee to try to turn them around and if that 
    fails then the manager is left with no alternative but to let that
    person go.  Managers should have to take responsiblity for who they
    hire and see that expectations are set and meet, unfortunatly I have
    yet to see this in any of my employers.  I know what everyone is thinking 
    I am an extreme idealist, what usually happens is the hiring manager trys 
    to pawn this bad employee off to some one else, I have seen this at my 
    previous employer.  Well all I have to say is that I like being
    idealist, as long as I keep a foot in reality, which can be difficult
    at times.

    Don't get me wrong I am not for firing people just because the market 
    has changed and we don't need there particular skills, that is not 
    what I consider dead weight.  This class class of employee should
    be taught new skills that are beneficiary to the company, they have 
    already proven themselves as good employees and they should be treated
    with the respect they deserve.  It is the short term thinker that calls
    these people dead weight and a good company should not think in the
    short term. It is unfortunate that in America today we have been
    reduced to a 90 day profitability mark for Wall Street and people take
    the easy way out by layoffs and retirement incentives to meet the
    expectations of Wall Street.  The real problem will still remain even 
    if they layoff or give the incentives, the dead weight is still there
    it is once again swept under the rug until the pile gets to big
    and the cycle starts all over again with talks of layoffs and
    incentives.  It is a never ending  circle.
             
                                               

Two cents worth:

        RE: .66  Ask the E.C. to manage?  They'll tell you its not their
        job.  Jack Smith says that the E.C. asked management to come up
        with a plan to cut costs and they couldn't ... hence hiring freeze.
        I would have expected E.C. to take more of a leadership role but
        apparently they have their own agenda and most of us don't know
        what it is.  I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment but
        unfortunately what you are asking is for those who ARE the problem
        to FIX the problem ... not likely.

	RE: 70, 71, 72.  I can't speak for what went on in Boca Raton but
	.71 has it right on the button.  IBM's retirement plan was nothing
	short of a disaster.  They lost far too many senior people and were
	forced to hire a whole bunch of them back as consultants.  Don't
	believe us, simply read the back issues of Forbes, Money, Info
	Week, Datamation etc ... It was all in there.

	Add to your list of companies that tried a retirement and lost:
	Foxboro.  The mean age of their engineering departments after the
	plan went from just under 50 to just over 25.  Maybe that isn't
	too bad?  The problem was senior people--or lack thereof.

        About the only major company that did a retirement plan right (but
        who can't seem to do much else right) is Exxon.  Out of the entire
        U.S. divisions there were about 600 people eligible for the first
        round of early retirement.  This was carefully planned.  The
        requirements for age&years service were carefully controlled and
        the exec's ran the various options against the entire employee
        database so they knew, far in advance of approving any plan,
        exactly how many employees would qualify. After about 400 took the
        plan, the numbers were then relaxed to make about another thousand
        or so eligible.  The end result was to prevent an exodus and trim
        their work force the desired amount.  Jokes about tanker captains
        aside, their plan worked. 

later...
 jim

    Response to .72 on firing employees.
    
    In my opinion, retirement incentives is the way management can get out
    of making the hard decisions, like LEADING people.  Nobody likes being
    put out of work, it is probably one of the most difficult events
    that can happen to a person, AND HIS FAMILY.
    
    LEADERSHIP is the most important part of a managers job, he has to look
    into the future and lead and develop his people to cost effectively
    accomplishing their goals, and he should lead the people he inherits in
    Digital, not take the way out of saying, "well, I should get to PICK my
    people, and 'get rid' of those I don't feel like developing, leading
    and training to higher levels of accomplishment.  If a person doesn't
    work out a good manager will try to work with that person, work all the
    alternatives with that employee to try to turn them around and if that
    fails then the manager is left with no alternative but to let that
    person go.  Similarly, a manager who fails to lead effectively and
    to honestly try to work with his people, valuing their ideas an
    input on a peer basis (after all, they do most of the work) should
    be voted out of office by his people and replaced with a manager
    who sees managing as a "calling" to lead people to greater levels
    of success.
    
    Few employees need another supervisor -- most know what needs to
    be done, and what can cut expense, or increase customers, margin
    and profit.  Not having good managers who are leaders, who listen to
    their people, and customers, and who act on that input, is the cause
    of the problem -- ie, professional bureaucrats who put personal
    agenda, ambition and self-aggrandizement over the interests of their
    people and Digital.
    
    Then, when things go bad, why everyone knows what the answer is:
    "fire 'em, the employees, they're just deadwood!"
    
    Managers should have to take responsiblity for their actions,
    leadership, and lack of actions to incur change that solves problems.

    Don't get me wrong I am not for firing managers just because the market 
    has changed and we don't need their particular skills, that is not 
    what I consider dead weight.  This class of manager should
    be taught new skills that are beneficiary to the company, they have 
    already proven themselves as good employees and they should be treated
    with the respect they deserve -- perhaps they would be better, and
    happier as individual contributors.
    
    Once, when organizations were REAL small, like in tribes a million
    years ago, the 'business' mentality was not to kill off (economically
    or literally) members of the tribe when manager chiefs, sub-chiefs,
    assistants to chief, assistants to assistants, etc., ran into
    difficulty.  The solution was for all members to arrive at actions
    to solve the problems, which might include voting in members of
    the tribe to provide new LEADERSHIP skills, to motivate, develop
    and lead the entire organization to solving the problems and once
    again realizing "good times."
    
    If Digital really wants to cut expenses, or increase customers,
    revenue, margin and profits, why is there not a vast call to arms,
    where all employees are asked for their ideas and suggestions for
    cutting costs and for building customers, margins and profit?
    
    In a recent USA today, it stated that employee suggestions pays
    off: among more than 900 companies, organizations and government
    agencies that had structured programs for encouraging employee
    suggestions in 1988, the employee suggestions saved their companies
    $2.2 BILLION, with companies paying only $160 MILLION in awards
    for suggestions that were adopted.
    
    
             
                                               

    Responce to .74
    
    	Thankyou for filling in all the blanks.  I left out the most
    important point LEADERSHIP, or the lack of.  

    I agree that managers need to manage. However, many of todays managers
    do not have the capability to manage properly. They have been thrust
    into their positions because the did "great jobs" as a non manager.
    
    New skill assesments must be developed for management to insure
    they can effectively balance the needs of todays employee's. Managers
    must look at the forest instead of the trees to manage successful
    organizations and make those organizations profitable.
    
    Each level of management has a different people/corporate function
    in life. I believe the closer the employee the more people oriented
    a manager must be, as the manager moves up the ladder more dedication
    to corporate goals must be developed. This will give a balance to
    the success criteria of an organization.
    
    The "morale" of this: better management development.
    
    

    Re: .74
    
    Your note contained all the standard "good" stuff about LEADERSHIP
    and the way leaders should lead their "people".
    
    However, my view of Digital, developed over two and a bit years
    in only one location so I speak with NO authority!, is that the last
    thing managers are asked to do is to LEAD people.
                             
    We are expected to be strategic thinkers; to be planners; to be
    leaders in the field of our specialisms (manufacturing processes,
    test, marketing skills etc).
                             
    The "people" are being asked to lead themselves - to accept that
    they are "empowered" (today's fashionable buzzword!).  We do this
    through the concept of the "group" forming their own "management"
    and being responsible for their own work.  And individuals are
    chartered to be responsible for their own development.
                             
    Believe me, this takes some getting used to after working for "old
    fashioned" companies who don't have this approach - I'm still not
    sure whether I've made the necessary transition and become comfortable
    with it.                 
                             
    What I'm trying to say (in my clumsy way) is that Digital is VERY
    different in this area.  People have MUCH more "power" over their
    own futures and their day-to-day work than anywhere else I've seen.
    What this means in reality is a totally different approach to what
    a "manager" is supposed to do.
                             
    That's the chellenge - what sort of managers should we have since
    Digital appears to have torn up the book when it comes to the
    traditional approach.    
                             
    However, from what I've read in these notes, it seems like "us"
    (the managed) haven't yet made the change - maybe we need to do
    an awful lot of work too.
                             
    Mike                     
                             

    Boston Globe  Wednesday, September 13, 1969 - (page 69)
    
    DIGITAL:  A VOLUNTARY SEVERANCE PLAN
    
    "Faced with sluggish sales and too many manufacturing employees,
    Digital Equipment Corp, for the first time will offer voluntary
    severance to Massachusetts-based employees.
    
    The Maynard computer maker, which takes pride in having never had
    a layoff, will offer a generous "financial support package" to 700
    employees on condition that they agree to leave the company.
    
    Digital disclosed the plan yesterday in part to quell rumors that
    layoffs are taking place.  A spokesman for the company said that
    there continue to be no plans for any layoffs.
    
    Digital's stock, the fifth most-heavily traded stock on the New
    York Stock Exchange, closed yesterday at 991/2, up 21/4. ...
    
    ...Digital's voluntary severance program is being offered to 500
    employees located at a former systems manufacturing facility in
    Salem, and 200 employees based at other Digital facilities whose
    jobs are related to the affected business unit.  The assembly and
    testing that used to be done by the manufacturing unit is now done
    at Digital plants in Phoenix and Puerto Rico, said company spokesman
    Jeff Gibson. ..."
    
    No rumor guys.... hot off the press.
    
    Mary

 Digital - A voluntary severance plan
	{The Boston Globe, 13-Sep-89, p. 69}
	{By Jane Fitz Simon, Globe Staff}
	[This is the entire article - TT]
   Faced with sluggish sales and too many manufacturing employees, Digital
 Equipment Corp. for the first time will offer voluntary severance to
 Massachusetts-based employees.
   The Maynard computer maker, which takes pride in having never had a layoff,
 will offer a generous "financial support package" to 700 employees on
 condition that they agree to leave the company.
   Digital disclosed the plan yesterday in part to quell rumors that layoffs
 are taking place. A spokesman for the company said that there continue to be
 no plans for any layoffs.
   Digital's stock, the fifth most-heavily traded stock on the New York Stock
 Exchange, closed yesterday at 99 1/2, up 2 1/4.
   Company officials last month confirmed the existence of a "working document"
 that calls on nine major departments to reduce head count by 25 percent by
 July 1991 through transfers and attrition. If implemented, the plan would
 affect an estimated 7,500 employees.
   Digital is suffering from a slump in US sales. Declining opportunities,
 intense price competition, and changing market demands are pressuring Digital
 and other suppliers of mid-range computer systems to reduce expenses and
 streamline their operations. In the fourth quarter ended June 30, the
 company's profit was off 22 percent from a year earlier.
   Digital's voluntary severance program is being offered to 500 employees
 located at a former systems manufacturing facility in Salem, and 200 employees
 based at other Digital facilities whose jobs are related to the affected
 business unit. The assembly and testing that used to be done by the
 manufacturing unit is now done at Digital plants in Phoenix, [Arizona, - TT]
 and Puerto Rico, said company spokesman Jeff Gibson.
   Since November 1988, 600 other employees who worked at the Salem
 manufacturing operation have been placed in other jobs within the company,
 Gibson said. The Salem facility, located on Northeastern Boulevard, houses
 about 1,200 other Digital employees who work for other business units. They
 will not be affected by the voluntary severance program.
   Digital has no plans at this time to offer the program to any other
 employees, said Gibson. But he did not rule out the possibility that it could
 be offered to other employees in the future.
   "It's a theoretical package that would be examined on a business-by-business
 basis if any other group decides to pursue it," said Gibson.
   The financial package is a new option in Digital's ongoing "work-force
 transition," a plan to reduce the manufacturing payroll by 4,000 this year
 through redeployment and retraining.
   Gibson said Digital offered a similar package in 1986 and 1987 to several
 hundred manufacturing employees in Arizona and Puerto Rico. But the package
 has never before been offered to employees in Massachusetts.
   Employees are being told of the voluntary option this week. Beginning in
 October, they will have 13 weeks to decide whether or not to accept the
 financial package.
   The package provides an allowance based on years of service. Employees with
 up to two years of experience will get 40 weeks of pay. Those with three to 10
 years will receive 40 weeks, plus three weeks for each year between three and
 10 years. Employees who have worked from 11 to 20 years will get 64 weeks of
 pay, plus four weeks of pay for each year served between 11 and 20 years. The
 maximum award is 104 weeks of pay.
   For those who accept the financial support package, Digital will maintain
 medical, dental, and life insurance coverage for one year. There will also be
 a limited acceleration of any restricted stock options employees may own.
 Outplacement assistance will be available.
   Gibson said that employees who do not opt for the program will be expected
 to look for other positions in the company while efforts are made to retrain
 them. There are manufacturing positions available elsewhere in the company, he
 said.
   Digital expects several hundred employees to accept the financial package,
 Gibson said. The company employs 125,800 worldwide, with 33,600 in
 Massachusetts.

    Also reported in the Boston Herald and heard over local radio stations.
    
    Again, why do Digital employees hear about significant events in
    the local papers first?
    
    

       
       
       	Probably cuz of the history of blabbermouths in DEC who take 
       	anything they find and send it to Channel 4 et al.
       
       						mike
       
       	I don't like it either.

    
    >Again, why do Digital employees hear about significant events in
    >the local papers first?
    
    	1)  Because nobody wants to listen to "rumors."  I've been hearing
    enough rumors of this package -- and variants -- for months now from
    trustable sources.  (Although not "trustable" enough for me to put it
    into this notesfile without everyone jumping up and down yelling that
    it is an unsubstantiated (ie. not on official Digital letterhead signed
    by the Executive Committee) rumor.)  Where is the suprise in this
    announcement?  It follows exactly the theme of the rumors and even
    implements exactly one of the rumors in here.  When I heard it on WBZ
    this morning, my reaction was "gee, finally."
                                            
    	2)  Due to the logistics of sending "big news" information to every
    employee, it is impossible to do this before someone would blab it to
    the papers anyway.  We aren't exactly a 30 person company where the CEO
    can call a meeting and get everyone together for an announcement.
    
    							-craig

First of all, the press reports don't make it official, no matter what
they say.  If they did, then we just experienced our 5th losing quarter
right?

Second, now we'll all forget the 99 wrong rumours, remember the 1 right
one, and go on believing in rumours, fairies, and trolls.

Third, those of us that hear a rumour that happens to match these "facts"
will now believe that that rumour was true.  This is my favorite flavor
of revisionism, since it completely ignores the possibility that what
they originally heard may have been fabricated or imagined but accidentally
and superficially match the facts, or may have been only an unapproved
proposal or draft at that time and different in detail or approval from
the real written action/policy.   But that won't stop us from believing
what we want to believe, that we had "the inside scoop".

Some of what Jean Dixon predicts comes true; that doesn't make her
credible to me.

- greg

    re: .82---
    
    ``2)  Due to the logistics of sending "big news" information to every
    employee, it is impossible to do this before someone would blab it to
    the papers anyway.  We aren't exactly a 30 person company where the CEO
    can call a meeting and get everyone together for an announcement.''
    
    At least in Colorado Springs, they did a pretty good job with the
    Salary Freeze announcement.  Even though they couldn't get everybody
    into one room they announced it to everybody within a few hours.  As
    I recall, there was a time appointed by which everyone had to be told.
        John Sauter

    Someone should tell the Globe that NIO is in NH. They seemed to have
    implied that the (majority of) layoffs were in Mass. 

    Gail

    ps I think it is "the right thing" to do. 

    
    RE: Previous few notes pertaining to internal announcement
    
    I believe the actual affected personnel in TMP were invited to
    an off site meeting yesterday at NH College in Salem, and were
    informed of the package.....So it was not a surprize to most of
    those who qualify...
    
    

          <<< HUMAN::DISK$HUMAN_WRKD:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;2 >>>
                          -< The DEC way of working >-
================================================================================
Note XXX.0      WBZ:DEC offers cash incentive to leave company..       2 replies
CECV03::ROBINSON                                     10 lines  13-SEP-1989 08:39
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This morning I was listening to the news on WBZ before leaving for
    work...I heard the following item about Digital...Although Digital
    Equipment Corporation has a history of never laying off employees,
    the Company is offering 6 thru 12 mos. salary to some 700 employees
    (manufacturing) as incentive to leave the company.  Those who do
    not opt to do so will be transferred.  I don't feel this classifies
    as a rumor,  although a rumor alluding to just such a move has been
    circulating for over a year now.  
    
    Carol
================================================================================
Note XXX.1      WBZ:DEC offers cash incentive to leave company..          1 of 2
DICKNS::STANLEY "What a long, strange trip its been"  5 lines  13-SEP-1989 09:01
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Check out note 598 for additional detail Carole.  
    
    Gee, if it were not for rumors, we'd never know anything at all._:-)
                                                   
    Mary
================================================================================
Note XXX.2      WBZ:DEC offers cash incentive to leave company..          2 of 2
MSCSSE::LENNARD                                       9 lines  13-SEP-1989 09:41
                            -< FOR REAL THIS TIME >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    'fraid this one is not a rumour -- its all over the Manchester paper
    this morning, and confirmed by Digital.
    
    Remember this is for those manufacturing folks who have turned down
    transfers or other training etc.  By the way the payoff goes all the
    way to two years pay for someone with 20 years service, plus all
    insurance gets continued for a year.
    
    All in all, not a bad package and hardly a layoff in the classic sense

    The Globe article of today (9/13) states that this program is voluntary
    severance from the company -- certainly not an early retirement
    program, as the title of this note suggests.... 
    
    What happens to someone's pension benefits if they choose to
    voluntarily sever employment with Digital?  This did not appear to be a
    factor for Polaroid and IBM, since their programs were called early
    retirement.
    
    If it means forfeiting pension benefits/rights (for those vested), I
    would think that few people would take advantage of the program --
    particularly in mfg. where the DEC experience range is anywhere from
    7-15+ years.
    
    

          ( From the Boston Globe, 13 September 1989, Page 69)

"Faced with sluggish sales and too many manufacturing employees, Digital
Equipment Corp. for the first time will offer voluntary severance to Mass-
achuseets-based employees.

"The Maynard computer maker, which takes pride in having never had a layoff,
will offer a generous "financial support package" to 700 employees on condition
that they agree to leave the company.

"Digital disclosed the plan yesterday in part to quell rumors that layoffs are
taking place. A spokesman for the company said there continue to be no plans
for any layoffs".

....


=============================================================================
==============================================================================
    
There's quite a bit more to this article, but honestly I don't feel like 
typing the whole thing in.

Right after reading this article at lunchtime, I logged into VTX, to see
if there was any mention of this important DEC story. 

Well, in the WORLD NEWS section, the latest topic involves Jack Shields' 
address about the Computer industry; the US NEWS "hottest topic" is about
changes to the Save Plan.

This ties in to other topics recently, and further serves to illustrate
the mixed (non)messages the Company is giving.

What's unclear to me is what is the cause of the failure to communicate 
important information to employees? Is it deliberate, or are some key people
just dropping the ball?

Will there be a message from Ken tomorrow, claiming that the Globe happened
to leak yet another contingency plan, but which again really wasn't true?

Some contributors to this Conference tell other contributors to stop spreading
rumors, that they don't have "all the information".

Absent any official pronouncements via the DEC chain of command, I'll take
the rumors any day. They're usually fairly accurate. 

Moreover, I'll know what's doing in *my* Company that could affect my life 
and livelihood, before the Globe or the WSJ informs me.

In DEC's more halcyon days a few years ago our motto was: One Company, One
Message (Nifty slogan, eh?).

I'm getting less and less certain that most of us aren't being spoken to
with "forked tongue".

The credibility gap in communications is becoming wider and wider.

  Alan 
                

Re .88:  If you're vested, you can't forfeit your pension rights, regardless
of whether you quit, retire, or are fired. (At least that's my understanding --
i.e., your right to a pension benefit cannot be revoked by the company.)

Taking advantage of a severance program would simply mean that one wouldn't
get any additional pension service credit after leaving. And, of course,
if the person hasn't been with DEC for at least five years, termination would 
mean passing up the opportunity to become vested.

    
    	Re: .83
    
    	Sorry, Greg, I never claimed to have had the "inside scoop."  I
    just keep my ears open and when I hear *so* many different sources all
    suggesting the similiar thing -- and some from credible sources -- I
    take it as something that is being seriously considered instead of just
    dismissing them all as pure rumors.  (As an example of some of the
    supporting info, how many VPs do you have to hear saying "we have too many
    people in some areas" and "we don't do layoffs" before you consider the
    buyout to be a viable business option?)  Dismiss it the first time I
    heard of it?  Sure.  The second?  Sure, it could be a repeat.  The
    hundredth?  Hmmm, not so fast...  I do dismiss 99% of the rumors since
    they don't get enough substantiation to be considered trustworthy.  And I
    don't listen to Jeane Dixon.  I was just suprised that .somewherebackthere
    was suggesting that the press heard about this before we did. 
    Officially?  Yeah, granted.  But in reality the handwriting has been on
    the wall.
             
    								-craig

re: .91

Sorry Craig ... my reply wasn't aimed at you personally.

There's nothing wrong with listening to rumours and I too "add them
up and form some opinions".  But, until they are confirmed they remain
rumours.  I don't dismiss them just because they are rumours, nor do
I elevate them to fact because some similar event eventually occurs
(what I heard may STILL just be a rumour, and often is).

The fact that a newspaper reported that "Digital official confirmed"
doesn't really mean that happened, or that it happened in the way
that the newspaper interprets it.  It becomes factual when a corporate
memo or duly acting manager enacts it (sometimes, unfortunately, the
latter is gray, and managers, being humans, make mistakes too).

But, unlike many other respondants I don't presume the corporation
failed in someway because it didn't tell me that a few hundred
employees in another part of the company [may] have been offered
some package before they [may] have told the Globe.  I don't really
see that I had a "need to know".  If some neighbor says, "so, what
do you think of such-and-such?", and I've never heard about it,
it doesn't bother me much.  So what?

Now, if I was one of those employees directly affected, then I
would feel differently.

- greg

    RE: .93
    
    Greg, I see a small problem with this statement:
    
>But, unlike many other respondants I don't presume the corporation
>failed in someway because it didn't tell me that a few hundred
>employees in another part of the company [may] have been offered
>some package before they [may] have told the Globe.  I don't really
>see that I had a "need to know".  If some neighbor says, "so, what
>do you think of such-and-such?", and I've never heard about it,
>it doesn't bother me much.  So what?
    
    _IF_ the Globe story is true, then I would expect that the employees
    of this corporation have _more_ "need to know" than does the general
    public.  If the public "needs to know" via (speculation) official
    information communicated to the Globe, then we, as employees (and
    some as stock holders) should _certainly_ "need to know".
    
    There is a matter of courtesy here.  If Digital has engaged in a
    public move which will gain national attention, we should have access
    to at least as much information as the public does -- and I don't
    mean by reading the Globe.
    
    This is a hot-button for many field folks.  Official information
    comes all too slowly, if at all.  When a customer comes to you with
    a news story that "claims" to be official, it would be nice to know
    about the issue.  It gets tiring to be constantly queried by customers
    about things you've never heard of.  We certainly can do a better
    job at communicating official information.
    
    Now, if the Globe article is based on "unofficial" sources, I can
    see why we haven't heard about this.  But if the company is more
    willing to deal with the press than with its own employees, we have
    a problem (IMO).
    
    FWIW
    
    -- Russ

    The people who had a need to know, did; if you were not told, it
    didn't affect you.  Quit bitching....
    
    Jay
    

    > The people who had a need to know, did; if you were not told, it didn't
    > affect you.  Quit bitching....
    
    Did the "people who need to know" include a reporter at the Boston
    Globe?  Can you explain why that reporter's "need to know" superceded
    our own employees' "need to know"?
    
    							Pat

    re "all employees should have been told first"
    
    Bear in mind that when the announcement hit the press, the stock went
    up 2+ points and was the 5th most active stock of the day.
    It would be interesting to hear some discussion about whether that
    would have amounted to "insider info" if it had been announced to
    employees first.
    Nevertheless, someone (individual or group) dropped the ball in not
    having the announce hit VTX (say) the same time it was made available
    to the press.
    

    re: .95
    
    Excuse me, Jay, but if I recall my security levels correctly, "need
    to know" is invoked for DIGITAL Confidential materials and higher
    levels.
    
    If (speculation) the corporation made the information public, "need
    to know" is no longer an issue; communication of public information
    is.
    
    $ SET MODE/SERMONETTE
    
>    Quit bitching....
    
    I respectfully respond with "Never!".  If we want to be the #1 company
    in this field, we had better learn to act efficiently.  We will
    never do this if we ignore our problems with internal communications.
    We do a lot of things well, but we need to do some things better.
    
    I have spent some of my personal time putting together a NEWS system
    for our local district.  In it, I place all the official unrestricted
    communications which I believe to be of interest to the district.
    In addition, I add news articles of interest as I get them.  I do
    _not_ spread gossip, rumors, etc.
    
    Now, if the official channels were working efficiently, I'd see
    very little activity from people reading NEWS.  Instead, I see the
    use of NEWS increasing steadily.  Why?  Because official channels
    need work -- and we'd better be ready to fix 'em instead of shooting
    down those who complain.
    
    Working so that DIGITAL can be the best,
    
    -- Russ

    Re: [.92]:  In a reply to a note moved to this topic, USATO3::GRESH
    compared the voluntary severance plan to a layoff.  This is not a
    layoff and it is misleading to make the comparison.  In fact, I wonder
    why this plan is even in the "retirement plan" topic in the first
    place.

    All, repeat, all, material information with an impact on the price of a
    stock must be disclosed promptly and publicly.  Today, the methods are
    FAX's, conference calls, etc. to the Dow Jones News Service, the
    Associated Press, and Reuters.
    
    Notice of voluntary serverance to "all employees" in advance of the
    public would be the equivalent of announcement of quarterly earnings to
    "all employees" in advance of the public.
    
    In Digital's case, the loop "to the world" and back into the company is
    far, far faster than the official internal channels.
    
    Going on the record with a story to the Boston Globe and other media is
    not the problem, the problem is the ever-so-slow internal
    communications.  Why wasn't this in LiveWire at the same time as it was
    on the Associated Press Newswire?  I don't know.

Nothing in any of the 'Livewire' infobases yet...

Lee

    Good Grief!  It's only been a couplea days!  Whatdya expect, prompt
    communications or somethin'?? Sheesh!

In 3 weeks in will make DTW.
In three months it will headline DECWORLD.

- George

    To paraphase:
    
    All animals are equal.  But some animals are more equal than others.
    
    This was a very rude awakening for Snowball the pig.

    Maybe the news will never make it to DTW & Livewire etc. The severance
    package that was offered in Phoenix, and P.R. wasn't widely
    "advertised". Unfortunately something like this can not be kept a secret
    here in the hub of the DEC universe. I think an official word is in
    order. It's amazing how uninformed most employees are, this lack of
    information turns quickly into misinformation and rampant rumors. If
    only everyone read the notes file...  
    
    Gail

    What an enlightening discussion. I thought I would find a note about
    the "retirement plan", as the title suggests. But instead, I find
    30 notes since the plan was announced that discuss the nature of
    rumors, lack of communication, etc. Interesting stuff ;-) but I
    thought this was about the severance plan.
    
    At the risk of derailing the conversation, I'd like to talk about
    the topic of the note. One part of the official statement hinted
    that this plan may be offered to other parts of the company as well.
    
    Do you think the terms of the plan are fair, attractive, or bad?
    (I think they're quite attractive)
    
    If it was offered to your group, would you take it? (I have 6 years
    in, and I love working here, so even though this would give me
    something like 61 weeks pay, I probably wouldn't. If I had 10 or
    12 years in, I might take it and join the Massachusetts exodus to
    more reasonably priced climes)
    
    Will this plan achieve the goal of shrinking manufacturing?
    
    Could it work in other areas of the company at  a time when Mass.
    high tech is in such terrible shape? The deal might be attractive
    as a way to get some money, but if you were in, say, marketing and
    had to stay in the area, I bet the money would run out before you'd
    find another job.
    
    Are these lump sums give in such a way that you're not taxed to
    death? If it was a lump on top of your usual check, the entire amount
    would be taxed at the highest rate, in which case it's not so generous.

    re: .106
    
>    Do you think the terms of the plan are fair, attractive, or bad?
>    (I think they're quite attractive)
    
    FWIW, I have heard _several_ specialists around here say things
    like "Where do I sign up?" or "When will they do that around here?".
    (Then, again, it is still easy (for the moment, anyway) for computer
    software-types to get jobs in the Washington DC area.)
    
    Sounds like some people are impressed with the terms.  Personally,
    I am pleased to see that the corporation is clearly trying to deal
    with a negative situation (too many people) in such a positive manner
    (generous voluntary severence).
    
    -- Russ

    
    I wonder any of those TMP people will take this offer.
    If those TMP people can't find other job in DEC until now, the chance
    of their finding the same kind of job outside DEC within one year
    is not great.  So better for them to sit tight and collect paycheck
    until DEC layoff them(This is the next step if this offer doesn't
    work).

    reply .108
    
    
    The handful of people that I know that have had the offer made to
    them, ARE taking the offer. But how many eventually do take it will
    be an interesting fact to see. Though I bet we will never find that
    out officially...
    
    
    brian

    I received an official annoucement in Email this morning.

    re .108 
    
    paraphrased: ... and the next step is a layoff of the TMP's that
                 don't take the voluntary severance.
    
    I have a question: how much money would Digital have to shell out
    in additional unemployment premiums if even one employee is
    OFFICIALLY layed off. I have an idea that the real reason for these
    seemingly generous offers is that the alternative, layoffs, is more
    expensive.

	It would seem to me that people in TMP have several options.
	Find an other job (temporary or perminent), get into a re-training
	program, or take the buyout. Staying and doing nothing is not on
	that list. I would think that with those options DEC could fire
	with cause someone who didn't pick one of those options.

	Even if the option was to take a layoff why would anyone prefer
	that, with no benifits and not much money, to 40 to 104 weeks pay
	and medical coverage? Can you see going to unemployement and explaining
	that the company wanted to give you 40 - 104 weeks pay but you turned
	then down because you prefered to get layedoff and get unemployement?
	Is unemployement really so good in New Hampshire that it's better
	to take unemployement for a couple of months then to take DEC pay
	for a year?

	And if DEC did fire someone for turning down all these options can
	you imagine hiring someone who was fired rather than take a buyout or
	learn a new skill or take a new job? Are there really companies looking
	to hire people who have demonstrated that they think they should be
	paided for no work at all?

	I understand that most people in TMP have had a lot of warning that
	their jobs were going away. DEC has held a lot of job fairs in NIO.
	DEC has offered to provide all kinds of help to relocate people if
	they want. DEC has provided all sorts of training and help in job
	hunting. What more can they do? 
	
				Alfred

 
RE : .108
   
>    I wonder any of those TMP people will take this offer.
>    If those TMP people can't find other job in DEC until now, the chance
>    of their finding the same kind of job outside DEC within one year
>    is not great.  So better for them to sit tight and collect paycheck
>    until DEC layoff them(This is the next step if this offer doesn't
>    work).

I think your comment about the folks in TMP shows a great lack of understand-
ing of the program and who is in it!  Some of the *best* manufacturing
people (M/E's, techicians, quality and materials folks) in the COUNTRY, let
alone DEC are finding themselves in the program due to some very dramatic
(and yes, perhaps necessary) shifts in the locations we manufacture products.
Many of "those TMP people" are the experts who have introduced new processes
and products into manufacturing which significantly contributed to Digital's
success.  Now many cannot or will not relocation to the very distant
locations where we are now manufacturing, (and their chances of finding
employment outside of DEC, yet within New England, are *very* good.)

I'm sure there is some "dead weight" in the TMP program, just as there is in
ALL areas of the company.  I feel privileged to have worked with many of
the folks who have found themselves in TMP and believe they deserve our
support.  Who knows, you may one day wake up to find yourself one of
"those" people......

Jennifer
(formerly of New Products Manufacturing, Salem)

	Some previous notes discuss the communicating of this plan to the 
	general Digital population. I agree that it should be done ASAP.
	Down here in New Jersey, all the people see are articles in the
	newspaper and they are misled about the state of the company. They
	ask questions about whether it will ever get to them. I think and
	most people will agree that more information, not less would make
	people feel more confident about the state of the company.

re: .94

>    Greg, I see a small problem with this statement:

I agree ... there are many problems with the statement.  But telling
the Boston Globe does not mean that there is necessarily a need for
the whole world to know, just that there is a segment of the world
that reads the Globe that needs to know, or the company chooses to
tell.  That segment doesn't necessarily include me, even as an employee.

You mention the field being upset about not getting certain kinds of
information.  I couldn't agree more, but it is based on the exact info
I think, not simply that it was declared publically.  You _should_
know of product announcements before they appear in the Globe, but
this is not a product announcement.

Likewise, I don't need to know of every product announcement before
it appears in the Globe, because I don't have an account to manage.
I would like to hear, though, of announcements of my own product
prior to seeing them there; or, for that matter, announcements relative
to my group.  But I don't need to hear _everything_ before the Globe
does, and I classify this particular information in that arena.

I also accept that the company might plan to announce internally but
have it's hand forced to take preemptive action because of an immienent
leak or other pragmatic.  Such things happen.

I haven't read .95 through .115 and I won't be surprised if they make
several other good points in support of what you say.  A recent survey
(ComputerWorld I think) suggests that computer industry employees are
unhappy about being excluded from a wide suite of information ... it
focuses on business/management directions for end-users, but it applies
to industry vendor personnel plans as well.

Mostly though, I'm reacting to how this case, should it indeed be
true (and it probably is) will be added to the "evidence" that rumours
are really true, when it doesn't support it at all, or, at most, very
weakly.

The allegedly leaked internal memo about headcount reduction is the
best example there is of something that would have enormous seeming
justification as a rumour, but in fact was soundly and intensively
denounced by our president.

The most dangerous lies are the near-truths.

- greg

ps: I also recognize that I'm "pushing" a point here.  The Globe article
    in question, if true, is the kind that we should all wish and hope
    could have been internally announced first.  But there's also a fine
    line between want and need, hope and expect.

  The Boston Globe only implied that the Salem plant is in Mass.  Digital
Review (published in New York) got it wrong; their article about the sever-
ance pay option says the plant is in "Salem, Mass."

re < Note 598.74 by ODIXIE::CARNELL "DTN 385-2901 David Carnell @ALF" >
    
>    If Digital really wants to cut expenses, or increase customers,
>    revenue, margin and profits, why is there not a vast call to arms,
>    where all employees are asked for their ideas and suggestions for
>    cutting costs and for building customers, margins and profit?
    
>    In a recent USA today, it stated that employee suggestions pays
>    off: among more than 900 companies, organizations and government
>    agencies that had structured programs for encouraging employee
>    suggestions in 1988, the employee suggestions saved their companies
>    $2.2 BILLION, with companies paying only $160 MILLION in awards
>    for suggestions that were adopted.


	Ed Services just announced such a program, called "I WANT TO
	CONTRIBUTE".  The goal is to come up with $20M worth of savings
	within Ed Services (approx 5% of the total Ed Services budget).
	However, many of the suggestions coming out of Ed Services probably 
	could be implemented company-wide.  This idea was borrowed from
	Europe where they have already implemented "I WANT TO CONTRIBUTE".  
	I hope the idea spreads to other organizations.

Frank

Greg;

I agree with you  in general, not all of us need to know everything thats
going on before it hits the Globe. BUT, this particular episode could and
should have been handled one heck of a lot better.
First, the Globe publishes "the memo", then DEC denies it, finally it happens.
Now I may not have had a real need to know because I ultimately will not be
one to be offered the bucks but, I ask you, what am I to believe the next time
the Globe publishes "a memo" whose contents more likely will effect me and
the company denies it? Should I ignore it as pure rumor or should I prepare
myself?

- George

VNS COMPUTER NEWS:                            [Tracy Talcott, VNS Computer Desk]
==================                            [Nashua, NH, USA                 ]

   Friday's Market
      Quote     Change     Dow Jones    Change      85% of FMV 31-May-1989
 DEC   97 1/2	+  3/4	   2674.58	+ 9.69	   $78.25 (85% of $91.875)
 IBM  115 1/2	-  1/4

 Digital - "At Digital Equipment, Slowdown Reflects Industry's Big Changes"
	Down Time.
	Belt-tightening and the use of outside technology strain corporate
		culture.
	Is new mainframe a cure-all?
	{The Wall Street Journal, 15-Sep-89, p. A1}
   Two years ago, Digital greeted its 30th birthday in grand style. The
 fast-growing computer maker staged a marketing extravaganza on Boston's
 waterfront, a nine-day, $26 million fete that drew 55,000 people and turned
 the majestic Queen Elizabeth 2 and the cruise ship Oceanic into floating
 hotels.
   Digital could afford to celebrate. It had become the world's second-largest
 computer maker, a feat accomplished largely at the expense of IBM. Its stock
 was soaring toward a record. The ocean liners towering above the crowded piers
 said it all: Digital's ship had come in. 
   Today, Digital is nearly dead in the water. Domestic sales have stalled, and
 some analysts predict that, for the three months ending Sept. 30, Digital will
 report its weakest quarter in four years. Under fierce competitive pressure,
 the company is moving thousands of employees from assembly lines and corporate
 offices into the sales force. It has slashed costs, frozen pay and stopped
 hiring. This week, Digital offered a voluntary severance package to 700
 manufacturing employees. 
   Digital isn't the only computer company that is hurting, by any means. But
 its slowdown reflects the wrenching changes that have swept the business - and
 shows how fast fortunes can shift in the industry's swift-moving currents. As
 computers become more of a commodity, prices and profit margins are being
 squeezed. And as companies turn to software and new chip designs for a
 competitive edge, fewer workers are needed to solder circuit boards. Even
 strong companies are being forced to slim down. 
   "The whole world changed," says Jay P. Stevens, a computer-industry analyst
 at Dean Witter Reynolds Inc. "Digital was slow to see it coming. Now, they're
 accepting the world as it really is." 

 A Changed Place
   The unaccustomed belt-tightening and growing use of technology acquired from
 outsiders have strained Digital's proud engineering culture and its long
 tradition of avoiding layoffs. "This once was a place where working dawn to
 dark was rewarded. But the big raises are gone, and benefits aren't what they
 used to be," one manager complains. Workers in manufacturing and other
 shrinking areas say they expect to be forced out if they don't accept
 retraining or relocation to other parts of the company - usually into sales. 
   The relentless pace of technology has forced Digital and other major
 computer makers into a delicate balancing act: They must keep their existing
 customers happy while developing the next generation of computers that they
 will need to stay competitive. That has proved awkward for Digital. For a
 decade, its marketing message was built around the flagship VAX computer
 design, which played the same software all across the company's product line.
 It was a potent weapon against IBM, with its welter of incompatible designs.
 The sales slogan "Digital has it now" was long used to devastating effect. 
   But a new computer design scrambled that strategy, and Digital has fumbled
 for months in trying to project a coherent new theme, even as it brought out a
 blizzard of new products. In just a year, the company rebuilt its entire VAX
 minicomputer line. At the same time, it adopted a powerful new computer-chip
 design that runs on industry-standard operating software - marking a
 fundamental departure from the single-design VAX strategy. The nonVAX design,
 licensed from outsiders, no less, might once have amounted to corporate
 heresy. 

 Confused Customers
   It was too much, too fast. "We confused our customers, and it hurt us,"
 Kenneth H. Olsen, Digital's president, says. In another heresy, Mr. Olsen now
 says Digital should pay a dividend. That overturns a longstanding strategy of
 hoarding cash to finance fast growth - a stance more suited to a hot start-up
 company than the mature giant Digital has become. "We believe in dividends,"
 he says. "We'll be looking at it again soon. We haven't decided when." He
 calls last year's $1 billion stock buy-back an "alternative" to a dividend.
 Analysts say a dividend would make the shares more attractive to institutional
 holders and perhaps shore up the price, which has languished around $100 a
 share, half its pre-crash peak of $199.50. 
   Though painful, the sweeping changes should make the company more
 competitive in the long run, customers and analysts say. And for all its
 worries, Digital remains strongly profitable. In the fiscal year ended July 1,
 the company earned $1.07 billion - though that was down from $1.3 billion a
 year earlier. Sales grew 11%, to $12.74 billion. In addition, Digital has "a
 phenomenal balance sheet, one of the best in American business," says Barry F.
 Bosak, a Smith Barney analyst. 
   Analysts applaud Digital's cost cutting. It has backed out of leases,
 consolidated facilities and recently canceled plans for a $100 million
 technical center in Britain. Capital spending, which doubled in fiscal 1988 to
 $1.52 billion, fell to $1.22 billion in 1989. There won't be any lavish
 harborside bashes this year. "They've slammed on the brakes," Mr. Bosak
 says. 
   Digital's aggressive efforts to broaden its product line should also pay
 off. Across the computer industry, popular software standards such as DOS and
 Unix are migrating from desktop PCs and work stations into the market for
 larger business computers. This shift - plus a wave of powerful new chip
 designs based on RISC, or reduced instruction-set computing - has irrevocably
 altered the industry. It has hurt the high-cost minicomputer makers that don't
 have a large-enough base of customers to support proprietary-design
 processors: Prime Computer, Data General and Wang Laboratories each sustained
 steep losses and were forced into layoffs and new strategies. 

 Work-Station Market
   But Digital's strategy is steering it away from the traditional
 minicomputer. Its sales of work stations - powerful desktop computers -
 totaled $1.1 billion last year, and it is closing in on first-place Sun
 Microsystems in that fast-growing market, says International Data Corp., a
 market-research firm. Digital has developed new technology that welcomes other
 computers into VAX networks. And, with a powerful new processor due out next
 month, it is poised to assault the mainframe market long dominated by IBM.
 Analysts say the new line is critically important to Digital, and they predict
 that it could boost sales by $1 billion next year. 
   That mainframes are a mature market showing single-digit annual growth
 doesn't faze Mr. Olsen - it's still a $40 billion business. "The market is so
 big we don't really care whether it grows or not," he says. He adds that
 Digital's sales approach will differ from traditional mainframe marketing,
 focusing instead on emerging, faster-growing commercial and technical
 markets. 
   Customers haven't been the only ones confused by the dizzying pace of
 change at Digital. Its sales force has trouble keeping up, too. "Our people
 cringe when they see a Digital salesman coming," says Jay Delhom, a purchase
 planner for New Orleans-based Entergy Corp., one of the nation's largest
 electric utilities. "Some don't know their own products. They promise the moon
 and don't deliver." 
   That hasn't kept Mr. Delhom's company from buying Digital systems to run its
 nuclear-power plants. "Digital's hardware sells itself, which is a good thing
 because no one else seems to be," he adds. 

 Shakeup in Sales
   Digital knows it has a problem. It is shaking up the management of the sales
 unit and sent the entire U.S. sales force of 6,300 to a company-run summer
 school at Brown University. The shakeup has reverberated through the senior
 ranks - and has reshuffled the race to succeed Mr. Olsen, who founded the
 company 32 years ago. 
   But the mess in sales isn't the only problem that slowed revenue growth into
 single digits in the latest quarter. In a costly gamble, Digital decided last
 year to cancel a major computer design, leaving big customers without a
 replacement at the high end of its line. The cancellation - in effect,
 skipping a generation of computers - allowed Digital to concentrate on the VAX
 9000 mainframe-sized model due out this fall. Though the move depressed
 short-run results, analysts see it bolstering Digital's long-term product
 position. 
   The new computer is the most powerful processor Digital has built. Indeed,
 "it will be one of the fastest mainframes on the market," Mr. Olsen promises.
 Analysts predict that Digital will price the new line at less than half the
 cost of comparable IBM mainframes. 
   The stakes are enormous. "The VAX 9000 series is the key to a turnaround at
 Digital," says Dean Witter's Mr. Stevens. He calls it the centerpiece of the
 strongest stable of Digital products since 1985 and says the company is poised
 for a powerful comeback, beginning next year. 

 Relying on Attrition
   Also important to Digital will be its increasingly urgent effort to trim its
 swollen payroll. Growth in the work force exploded in 1988 and then slowed in
 1989; the total now stands at about 125,800. Analysts say Digital plans to
 keep the head count essentially flat for three years and let attrition take
 its toll. As in 1985, it is retraining thousands of manufacturing and
 administrative workers for direct-sales jobs. Digital's approach recalls IBM's
 1987 efforts to cut overhead costs and bolster sales, but Digital moved far
 more quickly. 
   James Osterhoff, the VP for finance, says Digital hasn't any plans for
 layoffs this fiscal year. But he says Digital's no-layoff history "is a
 tradition, not a policy." He is concerned about overhead in Europe, where
 sales are still strong, and is looking for ways to slow spending on the weak
 U.S. market. "The question is, are we doing enough, and are we doing it fast
 enough?" he says. 
   Digital is still investing heavily in research - it spent $1.53 billion in
 the year ended July 1 - and software now commands a growing share of that
 investment. A crucial effort has been to embrace evolving software standards
 and make them work in Digital networks. 
   Like many competitors, Digital was caught off guard by the clamor for
 standard software. Although its VAX line has been enormously popular, fueling
 Digital's explosive growth since 1985, more and more customers don't want to
 get hooked on computers based on proprietary software. "In the VAX prison, the
 food's great, but you're still locked in," says George Colony, a consultant at
 Forrester Research Inc. Moreover, PCs linked into networks are often far less
 costly than minicomputers and use off-the-shelf software.

 Hard-Core Computing
   But PCs can't offer the power, sophistication and security that many large
 customers need. And most standard software isn't yet suited for hard-core
 commercial computing, such as on-line transaction processing. Typical
 transaction-processing tasks, in which hundreds of terminals interact with a
 database, include airline reservations, on-line retail-sales tracking and bank
 teller networks, and such operations are a prime target for the VAX line,
 especially the 9000. Transaction processing "will be the savior of the VAX,"
 which will probably last well into the 1990s, says Terry Shannon of
 International Data. 
   Meanwhile, Digital also is pushing ahead with new computer designs. Its new
 line, priced substantially below the VAX, runs on Unix operating software with
 chips from MIPS Computer Systems Inc. 
   At first, Digital couldn't come up with a clear marketing theme for the two
 lines. But now it has, analysts say. "More than any computer maker, Digital
 has positioned itself as the company that can tie together computers running
 different operating systems and different software on the same network at the
 same time," says Marc G. Schulman, an analyst at UBS Securities Inc. Digital
 has developed software that weaves disparate systems into a single network, he
 adds. 
   That approach enables customers to buy Digital's proprietary VAX without
 fearing that their investment will become obsolete if they get Unix-based
 computers later, says Barry F. Willman of Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. "No one
 else is doing what Digital has done," he says. IBM's Systems Applications
 Architecture is a similar concept, he notes, except that it focuses on
 integrating only IBM operating systems. Mr. Schulman calls Digital's
 capability in this regard "one of Digital's strongest assets," but he
 complains that the company "has done a poor job, up to now, communicating this
 strategy to the world." 

 Management Changes
   As it changes its image, Digital is also changing the way it is run. Through
 the summer, executives forged a new management structure, dismantled marketing
 and product-strategy councils and rebuilt the sales operation. Digital was
 broken into a portfolio of business segments, and a new operating committee
 has been formed, effectively tightening Mr. Olsen's control. 
   Insiders say Mr. Olsen manages the company like the engineer that he is,
 taking apart things that don't work and tinkering with them until they do. "He
 tore apart the sales operation, and he didn't like what he saw," a senior
 manager says. In the aftermath, John J. Shields, a dynamic senior VP who just
 a year ago was seen as Mr. Olsen's heir apparent, appears out of favor. And
 Charles E. Shue, who had been VP of U.S. sales, quietly resigned last month. 
   With the contest to succeed Mr. Olsen clouded and the man himself in no
 hurry to go, speculation now centers on a new generation of managers.
 "Replacing the founder can be the hardest transition a company can make," says
 John F. Smith, a senior VP and himself a candidate. "It's not like passing the
 baton from a fourth CEO to the fifth." 
   If Mr. Olsen has someone in mind, he isn't saying. "It's wide open," he
 insists. Though he used to say he would name a successor at age 65, he is 63
 now and has no plans to retire. "I've changed my mind," he says. "They may
 have to kick me out." 
   [Included with the article is a set of four charts:
	Signs of Retrenchment at Digital Equipment
			     1984    1985    1986    1987    1988    1989
 Sales growth slips	     30%     20      15      23      22      11
 Earnings are down ($bil)    0.30    0.45    0.58    1.15    1.30    1.10
 Capital spending cut ($bil) 0.45    0.57    0.56    0.75    1.52    1.22    
 And stock has fallen (DEC vs. Dow Jones Equity Index, monthly data;
	Dec. 31, 183 = 100)
			     110     120     250     450     300     250

 Source: Company results for fiscal years ending June 30

 Caveats -
   1. I approximated all values from their respect bar charts & graphs, except
	for capital spending, which gave the numbers. Thus the accuracy of the
	other three is suspect, but I hopefully blew it consistently so that
	you can at least see relative changes.
   2. The stock index (last table). I chose about mid-year to approximate the
	numbers, so this figures have two sets of approximation. - TT]

<><><><><><><><>   VNS Edition : 1903     Tuesday 19-Sep-1989   <><><><><><><><>

>First, the Globe publishes "the memo", then DEC denies it, finally it happens.

Whoa!  Nothing in "the memo" has happened.

The memo DEC denied was unrelated to this severance program.  Totally different
organizations were discussed in that memo.

/john

oops, sorry then. Must have my rumors mixed up. 

Never mind....

re: .122

Which is the whole point of this ... ;-)

However, I do agree with you that various aspects of memos, rumours,
reorgs, and other things could have been/should be handled better.

I think at least a few upper managers agree with that as well ---
perhaps most of them.

- greg

re: .120,

>                          -< more on the DEC "pulse" >-

	For the real scoop on the DEC "pulse", see the PSYCHE::PULSE
    notesfile.	;^)

				    -davo

    from 29-JAN-1990 Computerworld page 8 -
    headline - 
    DEC trims 235 factory workers
    
    body -
    Digital Equipment Corp. recently trimmed 235 people from
    the payroll through a voluntary severance plan, which reward-
    ed employees in its Salem, N.H., manufacturing operation for
    leaving the company. One industry analyst sees the program as
    a "prototype" for DEC to reduce its work force on a larger
    scale. "I think this is an experiment to understand all the impli-
    cations," said Bob Randolph, a program director at Technol-
    ogy Financial Services in Westford, Mass. A DEC spokeswom-
    an said 700 employees were offered the severance plan. "It
    might be offered again," she said.
    
    _______________________________________________________________
    3 things
    1. copied without permission
    2. This is the first info about the success of the previously
    	discussed plan. 
    3. Bob Randolph's comments seem to be on target considering 
    	the "spokeswoman's" comment.

	I know one person who took this deal. He was getting just under
	two years pay. His plan was to go to school full-time and finish
	his Masters (Sociology). Next he was going to look for work as 
	a college professor. His wife works so the money was not a big
	deal for him as he'll get to do what he really wants to do. Seemed
	like a win for DEC and a win for him.

			Alfred

    It's interesting how fast so much doom and gloom hits this conference.
    
    re. .125
    

RE: .127
>It's interesting how fast so much doom and gloom hits this conference.

This is 'doom and gloom'?

     - We reduce the workforce in a specific environment, reducing company
	headcount, lowering expenses.
     - Offer a 'Golden Handshake' to employees

Housekeeping of this kind is no 'doom and gloom'.  It's definately worth
the effort!!!  Get the broom out and do some sweeping.

What'll you do when they get the Wet 'n Dry vacuum out?

Dan

>   What'll you do when they get the Wet 'n Dry vacuum out?

    A VAX, maybe? ;-)

    I heard a "rumor" this morning that they offered the severance package
    to P&CS organization in Northboro and that they were given 7 days
    to decide.  Can anyone confirm this?
    

    Re: last
    
    That's correct.  However, it may be 5 days, rather than 7, that
    they have to decide.
    
    
    
    Bob

    Here's what's being widely circulated in these parts. Aside from the
    internal hiring freeze, which I can't understand at all, it seems
    pretty reasonable.
    
    ------------------------------
    
    
	* The early retirement packages will be offered to central and eastern
	  Mass first.    It will not be offered to N.H. until sometime in April.

	* If your job is being eliminated you will be offered, no 
	  doubt.

	* You have 5 days to DECIDE.  If you decide to take it, you will have
	  15 days to meet with your manager and PLAN a package.

	* You have 30 days to find another job, re-train, and re-locate,
	  if you decide NOT to take the buyout. If you decide to re-train,
	  you have to be trained in a field in which you are NOT CURRENTLY
	  involved.  Example, Electricians cannot be trained in another areas
	  concerning electricity, they'd have to be trained to do a completely
	  different job.
	
	* If, in those 30 days, you can't find another job, you will be 
	  placed in the Chelmsford facility for 13 WEEKS, and they will 
	  help you find a job.   They WILL place you somewhere.   If you
	  refuse a job in "Alaska" (for obvious reasons) you CANNOT refuse
	  the next offer, as they only give two.  If you do refuse, you will 
	  be "let go".  If deciding on relocating--check with your manager
	  to see if they offer relocation funding--

        * THERE IS AN INTERNAL HIRING FREEZE.  So if you decide to stay with
	  the company, plan on going to Chelmsford.  From there, you would 
	  send your resume, etc...(this is the "catch") and there are NO 
	  guarantees you will get the job you want.  Those jobs offered in 
	  the VTX jobsbook are being held for this program.

	* ONCE YOU MAKE THE DECISON TO STAY WITH THE COMPANY YOU MAY NOT CHANGE
	  YOUR MIND!!!  For example:  If your having a hard time in Chelmsford
	  finding a job, you can't say "Excuse me, Sir?!"  "I've changed my 
	  mind, I'll except the buyout, I can't find a job!"

	* The people that will NOT BE OFFERED ARE: Secretarial/Clerical,
	  people involved in Safety, Computer Programmers (I.S.) and 
	  Work Coordinaters.

	* Those who have been with the company 0 - 2 years will be offered 
	  40 weeks pay PLUS medical benefits for 1 year.

	* Those who have been with the company 3 - 10 years will be offered
	  40 weeks pay PLUS 3 weeks for every year they have been with the 
	  company PLUS medical benefits for 1 year.

	* Those who have been with the company 11 years and up will be offerd
	  40 weeks pay PLUS 4 weeks for every year they have been with the 
	  company, (MAXIMUM weeks accumulated are 104 weeks (extra), PLUS 
	  medical benefits for 1 year.  

	* If there are not enough voulenteers, employees who had a bad 
	  performance review, and those who offer the least amount of
	  service to DEC will be in line for "corrective" action.

    I also received the memo and parts appear inaccurate...for instance
    I don't believe there is a corporate-wide hiring freeze.  The basic
    "package" indicated, however, is pretty much in line with what was
    presented to P&CS yesterday.....available on a voluntary basis.
    
    
    Bob

    
    re .133:
    
    $ SET HOSE /QUENCH
    
    .132 does not claim to have any "official-ness".
    
    "This is what's been circulating around our area..."
    
    I consider it a rumor from a usually reliable source. It has been
    widely circulated, in its current form it's attributable to absolutely
    no one, it has been corroborated by other evidence, and as yet it has not
    been refuted. If you care to do so, feel free.
    
    (BTW, thanks for shedding some light on the origin of the
    information... :-)
    

    I've heard that the information contained in .132 is published in
    the business section of the 8-Mar Boston Hearld.  I can't buy one
    from the boxes outside of MRO1 because they are already sold out.

	BTW, just because it's in the Globe or the Herald doesn't
	mean it's true. It may be true but I wouldn't go off making
	any plans if I haven't heard it officially from my manager.

			Alfred

    I wouldn't be surprised if the famous and ubiquitous (it's shown up
    everywhere here - including posted on the men's room wall !) memo was
    the Herald's source.

    ;-)

    L.

    The facts in .132 are close to true. At the supper table last night
    was an Inventory controller from NRO-3  who has until Wed. to decide 
    if he wants the "buyout". All our advice to stick it out will not help
    him, if he does not take it and 3 months later P&CS decides to cut back
    he will have 30 days to find a job and 13 weeks after that in
    Chelmford.
    If I was 28 years old and single, I would have some sleepness nights
    until Wed. He would get 64 weeks pay if he takes it. The other way he
    may get nothing or a job as a Security guard.

    
    Latest information from Northboro. This clears up the 5/7 day
    discrepancy (7 calendar days ~= 5 work days).
    
    ----------------------------
    
{headers removed by request of original sender}

Subj:	BUYOUT

Well folks it's official!  P&CS (Printing and Circulation Services) which
made up blgs NRO3 and 1/2 of NRO2 was offered the buyout offically today.
The group (made up of approx 300 people) was offered three choices to their
futures (buyout - 1 lump sum depending on how long they've been with DEC)
or ride the wave (stay with their job with no guarentees - not even employment)
or transition (30 days to find a new job the trans center in Chelmsford for
13 weeks then poof - gonzo if they don't find another job). In Chelmsford
a job will try to be found for them, they have one chance to refuse and must
take the second job (regardless of location, type,  etc) of gonzo!  They
have 7 calander days to make up their minds what they will do.  They get
a years worth of benefits.

The only exempt P&CS people are secretaries and programmers (IS people -sorry
*&*&@) and data center people.

We had a meeting today and were told it dosn't effect us and so far, won't
effect my group.  My big boss also said he called his VP to get the real
scoop . . . there are three things going down.  1.  Possible early retirement
package to be offered to people over 50 - details not yet worked out.
2.  Buyouts offered to specific groups - details to vary and decided by
managers, managers included and 3.  Corporate buyout - world wide, details
not yet established.  Options 1 and 3 being worked on - not yet reality.

So that's the scoop here in Northboro . . . if anybody else has any good
ones . . . pass them along.  If you forward this PLEASE delete the header!
    

    I don't know what P&CS does, but does this mean that P&CS will cease to
    exist soon?
    
    Bob

    Does anyone know why the package isn't being offered to secretarial/
    clerical?  I've heard two completely different versions of why.
    
    Thanks

    Copied w/o permisssion...
    
"DIGITAL TO MAKE THOUSANDS ELIGIBLE FOR SEVERANCE"
BOSTON GLOBE, 3/9/90
Lawrence Edelman, Globe Staff

After months of debate among top executives, Digital Equipment Corp. has 
decided to significantly expand a voluntary severance program in the hopes 
of removing thousands of employees from its payroll, sources said yesterday.

The sources said that starting as soon as next week, the Maynard company 
will offer thousands of employees a package of cash payments and health 
benefits in return for leaving the company.  For many of those who don't 
want the package, the alternatives will be relocating or retraining for 
another job within the company.

Digital has yet to determine the total number of employees who will be 
asked to choose from those alternatives.  But industry analysts say the 
company wants to cut its work force of 125,900 by as many as 10,000 and 
eventually redeploy as many as 15,000 employees.

It is clear many of those affected will be in massachusetts, where Digital 
employs more than 33,000 workers, because most of the administrative and 
support jobs Digital needs to cut are based here.  The company has said that 
expanding the severance program it offered last year to 700 employees is among 
the cost-cutting steps it is considering.  A Digital spokeswoman yesterday 
declined to say whether the decision to go ahead with the program had been made.

In keeping with its tradition of no layoffs, Digital has said no worker 
will be forced to resign.  Instead the employee will be able to choose 
transfer or retraining if the severance program is unacceptable.

Digital, confronted with a downturn in the US computer market that shows no 
signs of abating, has waged an expense-control campaign for months.  But 
saving - from such steps as halting almost all new hiring, limiting travel 
and consolidating offices - haven't been enough, leaving the company little 
choice but to cut the payroll.

The question of expanding voluntary layoffs has sparked intense debate 
throughout the company.  Some executives say Digital must cut back in order 
to remain competitive.  Others, including president Kenneth H. Olsen, argue 
that Digital must not jeopardize its future by slashing excessively during 
the current slump.

A look at Digital's recent financial performance shows why the bit computer 
maker is slashing costs.  Its earnings for the first two quarters of fiscal 
1990 plunged 39 percent to $306.2 million.  And the company acknowledged 
last month that in the third quarter ending March 31 it may ring up its 
first quarterly loss since it was founded in 1957.

Digital managers, already asked to slash their budgets twice this fiscal 
year, have been reviewing all costs on a "business by business" basis.  The 
results of that review will determine which units and how many employees 
will be affected by the expanded severance program.

Sources said Digital wants to notify workers who will be involved in the 
severance program before a review of the company's expenses is complete.  
That way, the process of eliminating jobs, arranging transfers and 
retraining can be well under way by the end of its fiscal year on June 30.

Terms of the package will be similar to those offered last year to 700 
employees at its manufacturing plant in Salem, N.H.

The cash payment of that package, so far accepted by 260 workers, was based 
on years of service.  Employees with up to two years of experience got 40 
weeks of pay.  Those with three to 10 years received 40 weeks, plus three 
weeks for each year between three and 10 years.  Employees who worked from 
11 to 20 years got 64 weeks of pay, plus four weeks of pay for each year 
served between 11 and 20 years.  The maximum award was 104 weeks of pay.

For those who took the financial support package, Digital maintained 
medical, dental and life insurance coverage for one year.

    Re: .143
    
    They aren't being offered the package because they are too much
    in demand.  It's VERY difficult to find a secretary (internally).
    Others, such as software engineers, won't be offered the package
    either.
    
    My understanding is that the package being offered will differ
    from group to group, i.e. Mfg., Finance, Administration etc..  The
    basics will be the same but things such as the amount of time you
    have to decide or those within the group that it will be offered 
    to may differ.
    
    
    
    Bob

    Hmmm...this is getting clearer now.If I understand right,your chances
    of being offered a goodly sum of money to separate are directly related
    to your chances of remaining unemployed for a stretch.Right?
    
    Ken

    
    P&CS is Publishing and Circulation Services.  They are the internal
    print shop, internal mailing operations and forms.  Literature orders
    go through P&CS.
    
    

    
    	I also heard that Phoenix AZ and Burlington VT will be try-
    	ing to reduce headcount by 230 and 90 people, respectively.
    
    	I read that The Mill (Maynard) will be cutting people from
    	facilities (?), but don't know how many.
    
    							Shawn L.
    

    The Worcester MA morning Telegram ran an article today stating
    that Digital announced that roughly 620 of Phoenix' 660 employees will
    be offered the buyout package. Expectations are that 20-30% will accept
    it and the remainder will be retrained. Phoenix' focus will no longer
    be manufacturing; rather, they will now be a site for enterprise
    integration services.
    

    I received a call from a friend who works in Marlboro and he indicated
    that 60 of his associates were offered the buyout package today.
    One would like to think that some sort of "announcement" would trickle
    down through official channels.
    
    Mark.

    I've know that there is a "Transition Program" (go find another job)
    in MRO but I've heard nothing of a "buyout".

    There will probably be no "official" announcements about alot of
    what we're doing. Phoenix was announced because we're rechartering
    the plant. I've heard confirmation of "A buyout option" being given
    to Some folks in P&CS, a facilities group in the Mill and Parker
    St., and rumors of others. When we did this retraining stuff before
    we only made announcements where it affected whole plants.
    
    

    I don't know if the package would even be offered to me but I'd flatly
    refuse it and this is what I'd counsel anyone else to do.(providing,of
    course,that anyone would actually *seek* my counsel)
    
    Ken

    
    Re .-1:
    
    Care to tell us why?
    

    A Phoenician checking in.  The plan announced on Monday, March 12th,
    here in Phoenix, isn't exactly a retirement package as stated above.  
    It is pretty much the same that Salem was offered.
    
    Mike

The Boston Herald, Thursday, March 15, 1990

DEC Workers Warned:  Count Cost Before Retiring (page 49)

The Boston Herald contacted three financial planners regarding the 
reported buy out.  In summary, the 1/2 page article said:

"In general, the experts said:

* Employees under age 40 with less than 11 years of service who can 
find another job easily should take the money and run

* Middle-aged employees between the ages of 40 and 50 with 11 to 20 
years of service and who may not be able to find another job, whould 
be asked to be retrained and re-located......

* Employees between the ages of 50 and 62 who are unlikely to find 
another job might also volunteer to be re-trained and re-located."

"For instance, a $2,000 monthly pension may seem reasonable to a 
50-year old right now, but if the cost of living rises 5 percent per 
year, that $2,000 will only buy $1,000 of goods and services in 14 
years and $500 in 28 years."

One planner advised "employees close to retirement should walk off 
into a Caribbean sunset without haggling."

"People have had voluntary serverance packages offered to them and 
turned them down and then been given involuntary serverance packages 
and gotten nothing....The company might not be so generous next time 
around."

    A few notes back,I said that I wouldn't take the package,here's why:
    
    Most financial types agree (I don't know who the Globe talked to but I
    think they're full of it for the most part) that only the most generous
    early retirement package (and this doesn't qualify) will allow you to
    make out.If you have a choice,"stay with your company"!
    
    Ken
    
    BTW: So,you wouldn't call this plan early retirement? Once you
    leave,DEC has no concern about what you do with the rest of your life.
    Is that any different from retirement at 65? A rose by any other
    name...

         Maybe it's just me, but I think retirement means that I don't
    intend to work anymore.  Regardless of whether or not I must accept this
    buyout, I will be working again.  Therefore, this is not retirement.
    
                                       Greg

    Under this "buyout"plan, is there anything said about
    accepting the plan for bucks and NOT seeking employment
    with our competitors? I seem to recall (12 yrs ago) about
    signing some document about not seeking employment with
    our competitors for (mumble) months after leaving DEC.
    
    In the past, IBM, et al, would be drooling at the mouth to
    get an ex-DECcie in their employ. 
    
    pat:-)
    

    
    I feel I have to reply to .157 to rebut the uninformed arguments.
    I have been working in PNO for 10 1/2 years, am 58 years old and am
    taking the money and running.  I have weighed all the options that have
    been presented to the plant personnel and feel that, considering all
    the circumstances, that this would be the best for me.  I am in a much
    better position than a lot of people, if only for the early retirement.
    
    Taking early retirement from DEC is really not what I had in mind a few
    months back when the rumors started but it is best for me.  I feel the
    company is being more than fair with what is being offered.  I was in
    the position of being laid off in 1954 with a young family and no job
    and no prospects.  THAT AIN'T FUN, FRIENDS.  I will go out and find a
    job and probably keep on working till I am well past normal retirement
    age.
    
    Just had to get my $.02 in.  I'll be glad to go one on one if anybody
    would like more specifics.
    
    Harold
    

    OK, does 598.161 say anything new?

  The only things I read in the "Transition" article that are news to me are:
1. The severance package was offered to "some administrative organizations in
eastern Mass. within the Strategic Resource Group". What is the Strategic
Resource Group?
2. There is no plan for an early retirement program. (So we really shouldn't
be discussing this in the "retirement" topic.)
3. The next to last paragraph implies that the severance plan may continue
after the immediate finanical crisis is over.

  I'm confused about the effect that the buyout will have on one's pension.
Will someone get the same pension from DEC that he/she would get after resign-
ing in the usual way? Does the answer vary from one plant to another?

  Someone just posted an article from Electronic News (3/19/90) that says in
reference to the Phoenix plan, "Employees who initially reject the severance 
offer would also have up to 13 weeks to change their minds and accept the 
package", according to a DEC spokesman. This contradicts the "7 calendar days"
that has been quoted in here several times. Did Phoenix get a better deal?

Here is the Phoenix scenario...

The transition program was offered to 600+ PNO employees, 230 of which will
have to go.  It is basically the same program that Salem was offered.  From
March 12-23, they are accepting volunteers.  Whoever is left after March 26
will have to go through a selection process.  PNO management has determined
that they only need 330+ employees for the work of the future.  Those 330+
slots will be filled by people after March 26th based on job code, last
P.A., and seniority.  Whoever isn't asked to stay is automatically placed
in transition.  Those people will have until June 29th to relocate, start a
reskilling program, or take the $$$.  If you are asked to stay, you are
automatically ineligible for the $$, but can still relocate or reskill.  If
you are in transition and refuse a job offer, you automatically terminate
yourself.

Mike

    Re .165
    
    Mike, I would assume last P.A. would be looked at in front of job code?
    
    Regards,
    

    Lynn, I would assume not in Phoenix's case.  Management already knows
    what job codes they need to carry on PNO's EIS charter (lots of
    software folks).  I bet PA's and seniority are the tiebreakers.
    
    Mike

    RE: .165 - The plan offered in Phoenix
    
    Question:  If you decide to take the $$, how soon do you have to leave
    the company?  In other words - is March 23rd your absolute last day - 
    or can you choose to set your last day at x weeks from the day you 
    sign to take the $$?
    
    - Molly -

    The offer expires on June 29.  If you aren't asked to stay, or if you
    volunteer tomorrow, you can sign your life away on June 29th at 3:29pm
    MST.
    
    The rumor mill talks of many doing this so they can build up their
    severance $$$.  The severance pay is prorated down to the week.
    
    Mike

    Anytime up to 6/29.  I start retirement at that time also.
    Might as well have the full check up to last minute.

    
    	Any news on the alleged buy-out that was supposed to hap-
    	pen last night or today?
    
    							Shawn L.
    

    re .171
    
    What in hell buyout you talkin' about?  There have been many of 'em
    in the last few months.

	From VTX LIVEWIRE

                             U.S. Transition update

 The current phase of transition at Digital, with the financial support 
 package, will end on July 2, 1990.  The Transition Financial Support Option 
 (TFS0) has been offered on a limited basis, as one of several options, to 
 employees whose work has been identified as no longer required within the 
 company.  It provides a financial bridge for employees who select it.  Only 
 organizations whose transition plans have been approved and announced by the 
 end of May will participate in this current program.

 "The Executive Committee decided to end the current U.S. transition effort, 
 and the TFSO, after reviewing the results of the program since last Fall," 
 explains Jack Smith, senior vice president. "In monitoring and projecting the 
 progress of the plans, which have either been implemented or approved for 
 implementation, we anticipate that a little over 2,000 employees will select 
 the TFSO by July 2.  Over 700 employees have already chosen it.

 "This continues to be a bottom-up process," adds Jack.  "As part of their 
 human resource planning, businesses are assessing their work and the skills 
 and numbers of people needed to do the work.  All decisions are on a business-
 by-business basis, and only those that go forth with plans that have been 
 approved by the Cross- Organization Transition Committee will be considered 
 for this, or any future, financial support plan."

 The only change in the current TFSO option is the length of time in which 
 employees will be asked to decide whether or not to select it, if it is 
 offered to them.  The elements of the financial package itself will remain 
 the same throughout this quarter.
 
 In the next fiscal year, personnel professionals will continue to work with 
 their line managers to develop human resource plans appropriate to the needs 
 of the company.  Business conditions and continuing assessments of workforce 
 balance will determine if, and when, any new financial support tool will be 
 made available.

Re: .173

> The current phase of transition at Digital, with the financial support 
> package, will end on July 2, 1990.  The Transition Financial Support Option 
> (TFS0) has been offered on a limited basis, as one of several options, to 
> employees whose work has been identified as no longer required within the 
> company.  It provides a financial bridge for employees who select it.

This statement gives the impression that the buyout is voluntary, and that's
what I've been hearing all along: Digital offers you the buyout plan, and you
can either accept it or reject it.  However, I was talking to someone this
morning who knows someone who works/worked in GIA.  Apparently 70 people
in that organization took the severance package, and in most cases this
was *not* voluntary.  A lot of people were surprised to be told: you *will*
accept the buyout plan and leave the company.  This sure sounds like a
lay-off to me.

Since I don't have personal knowledge of the situation I'd have to classify
this as a rumor, but it's food for thought.

				-- Bob

    I work in GIA.  There is no public list of "available employees" but
    the number 70 was given by our VP.
    In the group in which I work 14 (possibly 17 including management) of
    our 34 total were placed in a corporate resource cost center on May 28,
    the holiday.
    On Tuesday each of us were individually told that we had or had not
    been "offered" the buyout. Is was not voluntary, although several
    people who had make it widely known that they would like such an offer
    were on the list.
    
    So, there is a mixed message.  Being placed in the "available employee"
    cost center was not voluntary.  If you were placed on that list, you
    now have until the end of this month to decide if you will take the
    financial support option package or not.  This is the choice.
    If you choose not to accept the FSO, the new cost center will assign 
    temporary work and do performance appraisals on this work.  If you have 
    not found a permanent job within 60 days, this temporary work in effect
    becomes your work.
    
    Many were surprised. Some were happy.  Some are not.  To some the
    'designation' process seemed arbitrary.
    
    Jim 

    I believe, if you check into this deeper, that the buyout was a
    secondary element of the declaration that an individual was excess to
    the requirements of an organization.  You cannot participate in the
    buyout without first being selected - by virtue of being excess to your
    organizations requirements - for transition; at that time,
    participating in the buyout is voluntary; or declining the buyout and
    being given a "reasonable" period of time to move to a company needed
    skill or organization.  The two, transition and buyout, are not
    mutually exclusive; you must first be designated as excess than you are
    eligible to participate in the buyout process.
    
    Jay

    I can't disagree with anything you say about the 'facts of the case'.
    
    That was my intended point when I noted the designation process seemed
    arbitrary.  I stand by this statement.  It may not have been arbitrary,
    but it seemed to be because there still is not a public statement
    concerning the process which found some people 'excess' and others not
    excess.  This triggered my assertion that actions which can't stand
    scruntiny are unethical.
    
    We are talking close to home here. Everyone in my small unit (execpt
    me) was designated excess.  These are people I have worked closely for
    some time.  The work we did was not individually specialized to the
    extent it would be easily understood why they were excess and I was
    not.  My initial response was, "Why not me?"  The response was, "You
    don't want to know."   But as the discussion continued it seemed that
    either the answer was not known, or I was not to be told.
    
    So, I suspect there is not a 'true answer' to be found; like most
    things of late, things just happen.

    Re .-1
    
    Maybe the reason was that you were considered worth keeping and the
    others weren't. Ie management made a decision. Maybe you worked harder
    than your compatriots.
    
    By the way it is classic. If in a group of 6 people 5 get canned the
    sixth person always feels guilty. I don't think there is any need for
    that feeling. You've obviously been doing a good job and the
    organization wants to continue to avail of your services. For whatever
    reason that is not the case with the other people.
    
    Dave

    re: .177
    
    No offense, but it may also have been more cost-effective to keep
    you.  One of the standard scenarios in layoffs is to watch someone
    you has excellent performance get laid off instead of a more junior
    person, just because the senior person made more money.  This type
    of winnowing is what union "seniority" rules are supposed to prevent.
    The theory is that the company is not allowed to exploit you and then
    dump you as it becomes more expensive to employ you.
    
    I've seen senior people "encouraged" to leave, who were then replaced
    by junior (and presumably less expensive) people, but it has been a
    rare occasion in my years at DEC, and usually at the behest of local
    management who had other axes to grind as well.  I've seen your exact
    situation happen at other companies during layoffs, and it always seems
    to hurt the company in the end.  Too often, the person involved *was*
    already in the process of being scared by even the *rumor* of layoffs,
    and had already started looking for a better job elsewhere.  Guess
    what?  They usually found one ... leaving the original company with
    less resources than what they bargained for ...
    
    "Severance plans" and layoffs are a dicey business at best.  Handled
    improperly, they can cripple your productivity and impact the balance
    sheet for years to come.  Unfortunately for us, the real pressure on
    the company is to improve the short-term outlook, and damn the long-
    term consequences.  KO seems to be pursuing every possible strategem
    to consiliate the analysts and the stockholders, but I have to wonder
    if the layoff is still lurking just around the corner.
    
    If I were KO, I would be putting just as much effort into developing 
    a layoff plan that would be surgically precise, and a frank statement
    concerning it that would be honest, rather than the sugar-and-light
    that we so often get in employee communications.  I would hope that
    the plan would never have to be used, but if it has to be done, then
    it has to be done *right*.  We might not get a second chance.
    
    Actually if I were KO, I would probably be basking in the sun on a 
    huge yacht somewhere in the Caribbean right now, but he's made of
    sterner stuff than I am.  :-) :-) :-)

This may sound naive, but as one of the people at DEC who has actually laid 
off workers (not at DEC) I'm jumping in here.

If you're fired for cause, you can't collect unemployment.  Therefore every
layoff is described as due to economic conditions so that the ex-employees
can collect while they're looking for another job.  Naturally, the layoff 
lists are carefully put together.  The most honest company in the world would
probably try to get rid of weak performers when a layoff comes, but they 
would never say so because of the unemployment insurance issue.  

PS - That's not to say there might not be all kinds of vindictiveness and
pettiness in a layoff, but only to say that "sweetness and light" is all
you'll ever hear and for good reasons.

    I repeat myself.
    
    Anyone of us can speculate as to what & why.  Anyone of us may even be
    correct.  But my point is that the only reason we need to speculate is
    because this process lacked even the minimum level openness which
    Gorby's glasnost would call for.
    
    If the system legitimatizes hiding places, (or hiding people, or reasons, or
    criteria, or.....) then no one can know what may be hiding or why.  So
    we each speculate in our own way. We then have multiple first-person 
    perspectives.
    
    You may say, so what? To each his own. 
    There is a third person perspective to which most societies trace their
    current ethical standards.  It is what *we* (as opposed to you and me) see.
    
    So, I say this practice undermines any practical definition of
    communications.  Most of the important aspects of meaning come from a
    shared context.  If secrets are allowed which substantially affect the 
    people we have a situation where we can say the same thing but mean 
    opposite.  Our shared context disappears; so we are left with just
    words.  Words don't mean much between people who don't trust one
    another.  Cooperative action, teamwork, shared, collaborative,
    partner.....what do these mean now? 
    
    This is political jabberwockey.  And why politicians can trust no one.
    
    Regards,
    
    
    It affects us all.
    
    

    Rumor has it that a new "Package" is being planned. It is channelled
    towards the more mature employees, who (most of them) have been with DEC
    a long time. It is said that the package consist of:
    
         - 5 & 5 (five years added to the age and service) 
         - Social Security Bridging compensation 
    
    In working out the numbers, It can be seen that rummored package is not as 
    lucritive as the one expiring in June 1990. Most employees accepting
    the present package are DEC employees with no much longevity in the
    Corporation.
    
    Is it fair to reward better those employees that serviced DEC the
    least?
    

    One might ask if it is fair to be asked if something rumoured is fair.
    I say "no".
    
    I must admit that my flame level is a little above simmer when I read
    such notes as -1.
    
    If you have facts, quote 'em. If you have rumours, well, try and find
    out if they are factual.

    Can the folks who opt for the monetary incentive apply
    for unemployment compensation?

    Unemployment compensation will be available to those folks after
    the number of weeks for which they were compensated in the buyout
    package.
    

>    Unemployment compensation will be available to those folks after
>    the number of weeks for which they were compensated in the buyout
>    package.
    


I believe that in Massachusetts you can apply after six weeks (or some such
number).  The waiting time is due to the fact that this is 'voluntary'
termination.  

(Though anyone who really thinks the decision is 'voluntary' is grossly
misinformed!!!!!!!)

Betty

re: .183
 
  <<	One might ask if it is fair to be asked if something rumoured is fair.
  <<	I say "no".
    
  <<    I must admit that my flame level is a little above simmer when I read
  <<    such notes as -1.
    
  <<    If you have facts, quote 'em. If you have rumours, well, try and find
  <<    out if they are factual.

Andy, 
  You mirrored my thoughts exactly! 

	/Marvin

    Re .-1
    
    Yes. But what you forget is that Rumours are just gestating facts. Brought
    out into the open they mature quickly into adult facts or alternatively
    they die a young quick death and never become fully fledged facts.
    Rumours that are hidden by people tend to remain around a lot longer
    and thus cause grief for a longer period of time.
    
    Dave 

    to start another sub-topic...
    
    An informational question (a few of us were pondering) for those who
    KNOW about the actual package - what happens with the pension plan, ie.
    is that closed out and paid off at 'buy off' time or, if continued,
    vested as of date of buy out or date 'payment' stops?
    
    	-Barry_who_is_NOT_affected_but_interested-
    

    Re .186
    You are mistaken. You can not apply for unemployment in MA until
    the number of weeks of 'advance salary' has gone by.
    
    re .189
    Which way your pension is treated is variable, depending on yrs of
    service or percent vestment (I can't remember which). I took my
    info packet home and could look it up. All I know is that mine
    has to remain in place. I wouldn't have an option to take it out,
    but I wouldn't anyway.
    
    Bob Mc

    .183 and .187
    
    Do you realize that RUMORs are one way of testing the waters
    and are often used as such.
    
    In any case .182's rumor will surface shortly or a variation
    thereof. Its a fact that more plans are being worked at this
    very moment and none of them will be a lucrative as this
    current batch.
    
    Lloyd
    

    re severance packages
    
    Read _The IBM Lesson_ :  it talks about the tendency of corporations to
    offer severance packages more than once, and that the second and
    subsequent offerings are typically less "lucrative" than the first
    offering.  
    

	I seem to remember seeing somewhere that by this time everyone who
	was going to be able to get the buyout has already been offered it.
	Is that right? Pointer to an official announcement? Does anyone know
	if it was ever available to field (sales, service) offices or was
	it always totally for manufacturing and HQ functions?

		Alfred

    re: .193
    
    I have never heard of anyone in Sales/Services being offered the
    buyout.  I have heard an unsubstantiated rumor that a single Admin-type
    person in our local geography was offered the package (supposedly based
    on the fact that the position was going away).  I have never heard of
    any directly revenue-producing individual receiving an offer.
    
    The pointer needed is to the statement issued during the last Digital
    Quarterly Report, where I believe John Sims announced that the current
    offer goes away with the beginning of the new fiscal year.
    
    -- Russ Pavlicek
       EIS/PSS, Landover MD

	  re: unemployment compensation

	  In Mass. if your employer provides SALARY CONTINUATION, you
	  must wait until your salary is stopped.

	  If, however your employer gives you SEVERANCE PAY, you may 
	  sign up immediately. (Even if the lump sum is a megabuck.)

	  Source: Boston office of the Div. of Empl. Security.

         If anyone is planning to take the severance package and later
    apply for unemployment, I would advise them to check out that
    possibility in advance.  If there is even the HINT of voluntary action
    to the ending of the job, there is little likelihood of qualifying for 
    unemployment compensation in Colorado.
    
                                     Greg

    Re: .-1
    
    Remember that some employers opt not to participate in unemployment
    compensation programs found at the state level within the US.
    
    It is not mandatory that they do, and when they do not, the states
    assume the employer is "self-insured."  The codewords of "serverance
    package" or "retirement" or "lay off" all have specific meaning for
    those employers who do not participate in state unemployment compensation
    programs.

    Joe

    RE: <<< Note 598.197 by CSG001::MAKSIN "Joe Maksin 291-0378 PDM1-2/H4" >>>
       
    > Remember that some employers opt not to participate in unemployment
    > compensation programs found at the state level within the US.
    
         Digital, however, does participate.  In fact, I don't believe it
    is optional in Colorado.
    
    >The codewords of "serverance package" or "retirement" or "lay off" 
    >all have specific meaning ...
    
         Very true.  For that very reason, anyone leaving under other than
    'lay-off' conditions should verify their qualification for
    compensation.  In Colorado, I believe they are out of luck.
    
                                       Greg 

re: 193,194:
    
    The following article seems to imply that any manager who wants to,
    can. Don't know for sure, though...
    
    
 Digital - DEC looks for deeper cuts to employee roster
        {Digital Review, 04-June-1990, p. 1}
   Amid continuing business reorganization and internal executive 
 shuffles, DEC managers are offering more employees a voluntary 
 severance incentive package in an ongoing attempt to trim the 
 company's work force.
   Analysts who attended a recent DEC briefing said DEC officials 
 hinted that as many as 5,000 DEC employees will be eliminated.
   "[The severance packages are] a tool a manager can use if he wants 
 to reduce head count. It's not a corporate mandate," a DEC spokesman 
 said.
   The spokesman would not specify how many employees DEC expects to 
 eliminate through its ongoing severance program, but he did not 
 discount the attending analysts' claims.
   In return for their resignations, employees who accept the 
 severance package will receive 40 weeks of severance pay plus 
 additional severance pay for as much as 104 weeks, depending on the 
 number of years they've served at DEC.
   In the past nine months, DEC has announced severance offers to 700 
 workers in Salem, N.H., and 620 employees in Phoenix, Ariz.
   Industry analysts said DEC CEO Kenneth Olsen reiterated at the 
 briefing his standing policy that DEC will not lay off employees.
   "This is a very emotional issue with Ken," said John Logan, an 
 executive vice president at the Aberdeen Group, a Boston market 
 research and consulting company.
   Olsen also said DEC might consider giving dividends to 
 stockholders, according to industry analysts.
   However, Logan warned that stockholder dividends are contrary to 
 DEC's recent stock buyback efforts.
   "Repurchase of stock by companies, especially in the light of a 
potential capital gains tax break, is considered a dividend. If you 
buy back shares and the stock is valued on fewer shares, it increases 
the value of all the other shares," Logan said.
   Also at the briefing, DEC officials discussed adding more 
incentives for its salespeople but "made no bones that they will not 
be giving commissions," Logan said.
   Sales incentives are rewards for reaching certain sales goals, 
whereas a commission is set pay based on revenues that a sales 
representative brings in, he said.
   Analysts also said DEC's ongoing reorganization along business 
lines, which began shortly after Jack Shields left DEC in October, is 
happening more slowly than expected.
   "This is the longest reorganization [in DEC's history], and it's 
not good for the customers or the employees," Logan said.
   In the latest executive shuffling at DEC, Donald McInnis, DEC's 
former vice president of engineering systems, has defected from the 
company to join his former boss, Shields, at Prime Computer in Natick, 
Mass.

    Below is the Boston Globe 30-JUN-90 article, extracted from Vogon News,
    protions of this article also  appeared in yesterdays (1-JUL-90) Sunday
    Union Leader Business section as well.
    
 Digital - Will cut more jobs
	{The Boston Globe, 30-Jun-90, p. 14}
   DEC has decided that further job cuts are inevitable even though it succeed
 in eliminating more than 2,700 jobs through a voluntary severance program 
 begun last October, John F. Smith, the company's number two executive, said
 yesterday.
   In an interview at Digital's headquarters, Smith said the computer maker's
 costs were simply too high, despite two years of tight expenses controls. 
 Asked if more job reductions were needed to get costs back in line, Smith 
 replied, We're going to have to do more of that."
   For months, Digital executives have refused to rule out the possibility of
 expanding the current severance program, which ends today. But Smith is the
 first to confirm that the company has decided to again reduce the payroll.
   Smith, Digital's senior VP of operations, said the amount and timing of the
 new job reductions will soon be determined. "Those numbers are being 
 calculated, the jobs are being identified. And we will know quite soon."
   He added that Digital will move quickly once the specifics are set. "There
 is one principle when you do this. When you know it has to be done, do it 
 fast," he said.
   A Digital spokesman said that between 2,700 and 2,900 employees will leave 
 the company under the voluntary severance program begun in the United States
 last October, an increase over the estimate of 2,400 to 2,600 it released
 earlier this month. The program provides a combination of cash and extended
 health benefits to workers who resign.
   Although Digital will try hard to preserve its tradition of no forced 
 layoffs, Smith said he could not guarantee that involuntary cuts or plant 
 closings would not be part of the new program. The company has already said
 that terms of any new program might not be as lucrative as those offered in the
 past. 
   Smith said the new payroll-cutting efforts will be expanded to include 
 Digital operations outside the United States. Digital employs 75,000 people
 in the United States and 125,000 worldwide.
   Digital's president, Kenneth H. Olsen, has long resisted extensive 
 work-force reductions, arguing that the company will need all the people it 
 has when the slump in the US computer market ends. But Smith said that  
 changes in technology and Digital's business practices have simply made some
 jobs unnecessary.
   "These are jobs we are no longer ever going to need" regardless of growth,
 he said.

    Recieved a memo yesterday originating with Dan Infante, forwarded down
    regarding the IM&T function having being overstaffed and in need of
    downsizing...Anyone else heard anything about this?
    
    -Carol

    Re.-.1
    
    Could you post that memo in here ?
    
    I've heard some very discerning remarks from Dan lately. I'd like
    to see some of his handiwork first hand.
    
    Thanks...
    
    Jim
    

Don't post it unless you have the author's permission.

		Steve

    But if you don't have the author's permission you can paraphrase it.
    Posting mail messages verbatim is verboten as per Digital Policy but
    paraphrasing is allowed.
    
    Dave

    IM&T's goals with regard to consolidation of redundant tasks,
    elimination of obsolete tasks, and ultimately reduction of headcount
    was the discussed.  Phase 1 starting july 1 FY91, final phase completed
    at the end of FY91.  No numbers re headcount to be reduced were given,
    no "pkg" or plan was mentioned other than the "restructuring of the
    function".
    
    -Carol                                            

    What is IM&T?

    IM&T = Information Management and Technology.  
    
                                        Greg

    RE: .206 and .207
    
    Jerry - its the old DIS function that was renamed... (you know the one
    Bel Cross is famous for :-)...)
    
    Gale

    Just heard that KO will be here (BUO) this Thursday doing a DVN
    broadcast addressing early retirement...Ken will be taking questions
    from employees.  Its on from 3:00 to 4:00 Thursday afternoon..

U.S. News                         LIVE WIRE

                Hear the company's plan to recover profitability
                     at August 30 employee telecast on DVN     

    If you want to hear how the company plans to turn things around and
    return to profitability, you won't want to miss the "Digital Quarterly
    Report" employee telecast on Thursday, Aug. 30, from 3-4 p.m. EDT, over
    the Digital Video Network.

    In the middle of August, Ken Olsen and more than 40 other key senior
    managers participated in an intensive "Woods Meeting" in Maine.  There
    they focused on the major challenges facing Digital and the actions
    that have to be taken to meet those challenges.

    As a follow-up to that important work, Ken, Jack Smith and John Sims
    will talk Thursday about the company's game plan for success and
    recovering profitability.

    Topics to be discussed include: strategies for increasing revenues; ways 
    to reduce operating costs; workforce reduction; and organizational changes.
    The telecast will be interpreted for the hearing impaired.

    If you have a question for Ken, Jack or John, but won't be able to
    attend the telecast, you can send the question in advance to Corporate
    Employee Communication at ICS::JOHNSONJ or Jim Johnson @PKO.

    As usual, a limited number of seats in the studio audience will be made
    available on a first-come, first-served basis.  Those attending should
    contact Barbara Cashes at DTN 251-1308.

    To find the DVN site nearest you, consult the U.S. News menu, choice 99.

It looks like it's here...
    
Worldwide News                      LIVE WIRE

 Digital to provide incentives for more U.S. employees to leave

  Effective September 4, Digital is introducing a Transition Financial Support 
  Option (TFSO) package for the U.S., with the initial implementation expected 
  in September.  The plan is to complete the U.S. portion of the company's 
  downsizing work as soon as practical. 

  This is part of a company-wide downsizing effort, which depends upon 
  business workplans to identify jobs that need to be eliminated during 
  Digital's restructuring process.   All decisions are being made on a 
  business-by-business basis, and they will need to be approved by Digital's 
  Cross-Organization Transition Committee.  Any jobs identified will come from 
  organizational consolidations, work that no longer needs to be done, 
  overstaffing, etc.  With the overall effort, the company plans to bring the 
  total population into better alignment with workplace requirements. 

  In July, Digital posted its first loss despite months of hard work to cut 
  costs, including a TFSO package that was accepted by about 3,000 employees.  
  This continued downsizing effort has been caused by a business downturn and 
  our increasing need to be more competitive. 

  The fourth quarter loss resulted from the company's decision to set aside 
  $400 million for "restructuring" charges.  This money will be used primarily 
  to help offset the costs of eliminating unnecessary jobs, retraining and 
  redeploying employees, and consolidating some facilities. 

  Everyone affected by this program will be given up to four weeks to decide 
  whether or not to accept the financial bridge or to find a new job within 
  the company.  If a job match has not been made in four weeks, those who 
  choose to remain with Digital will be subject to temporary assignments and 
  to any other changes in the transition program, as business conditions 
  dictate. 

  The new program uses the same elements as the first TFSO, including a 
  financial bridge based on years of service and the continuation of benefits 
  for one year.  The lump-sum financial bridge, which is different from that 
  of the first TFSO, will be based on the following: 

    0 -  2 years of service  -- 13 weeks pay
    3 - 10 years of service  -- 13 weeks of pay, plus 3 weeks pay              
                                for every year of service between              
                                3 and 10 years
    11 - 20 years of service -- 37 weeks of pay, plus 4 weeks of 
                                pay for every year of service 
                                between 11 and 20 years

                             --	77 weeks of pay will be the 
                                maximum financial bridge 
                                available

  In addition, the employees who are offered and accept the package will be 
  able to maintain their medical, dental and life insurance coverage for one 
  year.  Formal outplacement assistance will also be available and, where 
  applicable, five-year acceleration of any restricted stock options will be 
  available. 

  "Our basic goal continues to be to offer a voluntary package to help 
  impacted employees bridge to their next career or life goals,"  explains 
  Jack Smith, senior vice president of Operations.  

  "There are many areas in which we are trying to cut expenses. Almost every 
  cost center across the company has developed significantly reduced budgets 
  for FY91.  Plus, we are looking at more ways to reduce discretionary 
  spending.  The people part of the plan does not represent the entire 
  formula, although it is the most visible and most difficult of our decisions.

  "The continued commitment from all managers and employees is critical for 
  our success.  We need everyone to take the initiative to reduce costs 
  wherever they see them."

  More information and details about the program will be communicated to 
  affected employees.

    
      Kinda insulting given what was offered the last time.  I wonder
    what the "politically_correct" explanation was for lowering the
    ante so drastically.
    
      The last package was generous enough to support a *real* change in
    career.  This one will barely put food on the table until another
    similar job can be found for a lot of people.
    
    
    						-a
    

> <<< Note 598.212 by MUDHWK::LAWLER "Twelve Cylinders - NO LUCAS electrics." >>>
>                               -< Disappointing >-
>    
>      Kinda insulting given what was offered the last time.  I wonder
>    what the "politically_correct" explanation was for lowering the
>    ante so drastically.

    Simple -- if each buyout is better or equal to the previous one, it makes
sense to stay around unless you have a better offer from the outside (in which
case, you'd probably leave *without* the buyout). If, on the other hand, each
buyout is *worse* than the one preceding it, you leave on the first offer.

    
    	RE: .212
    
    I bet the employees over at Wang or Data General would have loved
    
    to have been "insulted" in such a way......
    
    
    
    						P.M.
    
    

    Historically, all companies who have offered a buy-out have structured
    it so that each succeeding "package" was less generous than the
    preceeding one. A former GE employee, upon seeing the new, less
    generous package commented, "At GE, that would have been more than the
    best package I ever saw."
    
    I agree with .-1 ... it may not seem like a lot, and it may not seem
    really generous, but it is a LOT more generous than: "Good morning, you
    don't work here any more ... can I have your badge please? Thank you,
    Good-bye."
    
    

re:<<< Note 598.215 by CSSE32::RHINE "A dirty mind is a terrible thing to waste" >>>
>                     -< The first buyout was too costly. >-
    
>    The last buyout cost DEC a lot more money than expected.  I don't
>    remember the numbers, but the over run was something like 50%.


I'm not too sure about that. I have figures that show that the cost per
employee taking the package was estimated  to average $70K in the planning
stages. It actually worked out to around $53K average per person. I also
believe (but can't substantiate) that the number of "takers" was not
significantly out of line with the plan - may even have been short.

-Jack

    re:  Less generous the second time around ...
    
    The argument that reducing the goodies in the second and successive
    packages will encourage people to leave ASAP is a good one, except
    for one thing:  the second package is also aimed at people who did
    not get a shot at the first one.  So, by virtue of being located
    in the Field, or by not being identified as patently excess in the
    first go 'round, these people will get less than their brethren
    at Corporate got.
    
    Gee, if we carry this cycle forward a little, what happens if we get
    to the point where the company is eliminating the jobs of people
    they would really want to keep, but can't?  Dock them a month's pay?
    
    Geoff

    RE: .217
    
    You are correct.  I went back and read the memo and had misread
    something.

.218 is right on target.  It's not as if everyone has the chance to take each
version of "the package," or even that the same people get the chance each 
time. Rather, each version is offered to a selected group based on an
evaluation of corporate business needs.

So, the result is one that clearly seems unjust (from at least one perspective).
That is, the first and most generous package was offered to those whom Digital
deemed most expendable or least "valuable" given its business needs. A less
generous second package will be offered to the next most expendable or next
least valuable people. And if future packages are offered, they will be even
less generous and will go to those who were presumably more "valuable" than
people in the previous offerings.

Yes, any Digital package is still better than what many companies have done
and will do. And yes, this is probably a case of the truism that "sometimes
life is simply unfair." And yes, I'm happy to be a DECcie and would rather be
here than anywhere else I could imagine. But still, the decreasing generosity
of the packages is unfair in a sense, and some resentment is to be expected.
My only suggestion would to to have the corporate powers reconsider the terms,
to make them more generous to those who are doing good work and who were not
given a previous opportunity to "take the package."

    
    
      BTW, does anybody know why the current UK buyout plan is more
    generous than the U.S. one?
    
    
    						-al
    

    re .217 The number of takers on the original plan was *over*
    not under the estimates. DEC expected to lose 22-2300 people
    and got almost 3000 takers. Maybe they figured the first
    plan was *too* generous ? Don't know. However, some people in
    some groups here were not offered the first package, though they
    wanted it. What if they're offered the second, lesser package ?
    Do they sue DEC for unfair treatment ? (hint: I sure would.)

    It did seen very unfair here (GSO) when the first package was directed at
    managment personal only and now the second package (the lesser one)
    is to offer out to others. I guess the most valuable people are the
    ones that actualy do the work. But the worker's pay doesn't reflect
    that value. Something smells like a fish to me.
    
    ben

re:  <<< Note 598.222 by HEFTY::CHARBONND "in the dark the innocent can't see" >>>

You may very well be correct. As I said I have nothing to substantiate my guess.
Any given plan will be offered to some finite but fixed (roughly) number of
employees. At one end of the spectrum, you must assume that no one will take
it. This is your "least cost option". At the other, you must assume that
everyone will accept it, making that your "highest cost option". The trick
is obviously to guess as accurately as possible where in that range the
real numbers will fall. The guess was quite likely wrong, but had to fall
somewhere < or = the "highest cost option", by definition, hence Package 1
couldn't possibly have cost more than some liniting figure which had
already been understood.

Regarding discussions on the relative generosity of Package 1 vs. Package 2,
I have some thoughts. The plans are, in a sense a gamble. The company is
gambling that you will or will not accept a package if they offer it
to you. You are gambling that you will be better off either taking the
package or sticking it out and staying with DEC. Keep in mind that no one
has yet been laid off. So if you take a package, it must be because
you personally found it to be a more reasonable alternative, which is likely
unable to be construed as unfair by you or anyone else. If you decide not to
take it, again it was your choice, so what's unfair about it? Nobody's
holding a gun to your head and telling you to take the package. Nobody's
telling you that the immediate alternative is a pink slip.

Now I can understand that you may have _wanted_ a different package to be
offered to you - we often all want things that aren't offered to us - but
that also doesn't make the lack of such an offer "unfair".

Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that we as a company have no past
experience in this area. I'll bet that our experiences with Package 1 will
allow us to improve our estimates of acceptance for Package 2 by an order of
magnitude. That seems like good management to me - taking the appropriate
risks to gain sufficient experience so that you can perform according to
plans. We call it "prototyping" here in engineering.

-Jack

    Oh I see! By offering a smaller package to the lesser valuable people
    then maybe they won't take it.
    But wasn't the plan to reduce?
    Thats good management?
    
    I don't understand a lot about how management works. I'm not trained or
    skilled in the area.
    
    1. But I know whats right and whats wrong. 
    2. And to save something sometimes you have to stick it where it hurts to 
       save the whole.
    
    Item 2 is it for us. I guess I'll come to grips with it when it/if
    happens.
    
    ben

    It always amazes me what gets passed off for truth around here.  For
    example... -.2 is concerned that the first package was only available
    to managers.  This is flat out not the case.  In fact, it probably is
    more the opposite.  The intent of the first package was to provide an
    opportunity for all people whose work, job, or some combination of the
    two went away.  This applied to ICs as well as managers, and I know
    people from both levels who were affected by it.  My opinion is that we
    would be ALOT better off if there we had lost 3000 managers last time.
    
    The sad thing about the way DEC is dealing with its problems is that
    its concern for its employees is hindering the development of a
    solution.  Its clear to everyone what has to happen here.  I can't (or
    will not) believe that upper management doesn't know what to do.  But
    the 'right thing' is so inconsistent with the company's philosphy that
    everyone is crippled.
    
    Certainly the package that now is on the table is not as generous as
    the first one was, which was probably too generous.  But it gives
    people no less that one quarter, up to almost 1.5 years, of pay,  plus
    benefits. This is a 'bridge.'  It's not pay for not working.  Its pay
    to help someone find another job.  
    
    What possible justification can be provide to share holders to do
    anymore that is being done, short of a layoff, which is what most other
    companies would do?
    
    LI  
    
    
    

    I heard that the lesser package is going to be offered to higher level
    people.  
    
    The logic might be in the needs of the targeted group.  A higher level
    person would need less to transition into a new position.
    

re:       <<< Note 598.225 by RAVEN1::TYLER "Try to earn what Lovers own" >>>

Hold on a minute, Ben. Your .223 got in before my .224. When I was speaking
about "unfair" being an unrealistic way of looking at the situation I
was referencing whether Package 2 being less generous than package 1 made
it "unfair". I was not addressing "who the respective packages were offered
to".

If in fact it's true that Package 1 was only available to upper management
and that Package 2 were being offered to anyone, and that was the corporate
intent, I would agree that that was "unfair". I don't, however, think that
this was either the intent or the case. I can't speak to specific plants
or groups as to how it was handled, simply because I don't know those
details. I can tell you that of the handfull of people I know personally
who took package 1, none of them were managers - all were individual
contributors, so I don't think a blanket claim can be made that it was a
"management only" option.

I've never said that this whole thing is being handled perfectly in all
instances. If you'll look elsewhere in this file you'll find that I was the
one that screamed bloody murder about a faux pas in the early stages (I don't
recall the topic number but I think I titled it "Mismanaged Buyout Plan" or
something similar). But by the same token, I don't think that "everything"
is being done wrong, either. And when I see something that looks right to
me I feel a moral obligation to say so.

Yes, if the opportunity to take the package was limited only to managers
in your group or plant, I agree that it sounds unfair. What I don't know
is:
	1) Who was responsible for that decision? (hint: Not KO)
	2) What other circumstances came into play to cause that decision
	   to be made?
	3) What options might have been available besides (e.g. I know of
	   people who "volunteered" for Package 1 and got it even though
	   they were not "offered" it - maybe this is "unfair" too, but
	   how many people pursued whether or not they could swing such
	   a deal?)

Again, I'm sorry if you misread my earlier response to be directed at your
situation.

-Jack

    Digital took a bashing from financial analysts because of the
    generosity of the first package offered during FY'90.  Given the
    current value of the stock, Digital really can't afford (for a lot of
    different reasons) to offer the kind of package offered the first time
    around.  In my opinion, the first package that was offered was
    ludicrous, but telling, in so much that it highlighted the fact that
    Digital was in a lot of pain about not being able to continue its
    philosophy of offering "employment for life."
    

Some people who were offered Package 1 said that they felt it wasn't
really voluntary.  There was a lot of pressure on them to take the
package.  It that's the case, Package 2 would be even less voluntary, due
to the shorter decision time.

    
    Package one was voluntary and offered to select areas, areas not
    levels of employees.
    
    Package two will be long the same lines only to a wider area.
    
    I think DEC is bending over backwards to take care of its' employees.
     After spending 17 years with another Computer company and surviving
    numerous layoffs I cannot understand the problems with the way DEC
    is handling this.   
    
    Try two weeks pay, plus Vacation (non accrual), and told on a Friday
    afternoon.
    
    Data General is giving everyone a white box.  when you're called
    to your managers office and told your RIF'd, they walk you to your
    desk and than out the door.
    
    Cal.
    

    Re -1 and DG....people who think this is rough should have worked at
    Collins Radio in the late 60's.  There you got called to your manager's
    office, and while you were there, Security packed your stuff.  You
    were then escorted to the front door, having never been allowed back
    to your desk.  Some of this generation of softies need to go through
    that once in order to understand what a terrific job DEC is doing.

    
    -1
    
    Exactly my point!  DEC is doing a terrific job and is sensitive
    to its employees!
    
    Now on to productive things.
    
    Cal.
    

    RE: 16BITS::DELBALSO
    
     I'm sorry if my comments seemed directed at you but they were not. (I
    noticed the time on your note.) I understand that what goes on in this
    place may not be whats happening in other plants. I know there are MANY
    things done dirfferently here.
     Third shift had a plant managers meeting last night. They were told
    that there was some management problems here and he would work to
    correct things. We've heard that before.;^) Time will tell to be sure.
     Yes, this company is a GREAT place to work compared to many others.
    There are a lot of things that are nice here. But it does not make it
    right for this company to treat all its people BETTER or WORSE based on
    what happens/ed somewere else. All companies should WANT to take care
    of the employees as BEST it can. The problem is what one thinks is best
    compared to what another thinks is best and then who decides on the "Best
    Thought Plan of Action".
    
    Ben
    P.S. Try working in a cotten mill for real fun!

    
    
    	the mere fact that DEC has struggled hard to "not" be like other
    
    	companies has in my mind been responsible for the phenomenal
    
    	DEC has enjoyed over the years. I believe that we are still
    
    	a successful company given the gloom and doom in the world market
    
    	place. My only wish now is to forge ahead and would like to start
    
    	hearing upper managment talk more of the "goodness" that we offer 
    
    	as a company and focus less on the negative side of things. Too 
    
    	much of the gloom and doom talk i've heard and keep hearing lately
    
    	from management is beginning to take it's toll on people and may in
    
    	fact become self fulfulling in a way in which we/they didn't
    
    	intend.
    
    
    	/rp.

    
    
    
    	oops.. .235 shold have read "phenomenal success DEC has enjoyed
    
    	over the years." 

    re: several back
    I seems that this is a U.S topic only!
    Where are you Euro, GIA noters ?
    "packages" have for sure been introduced in U.K 
    Any others to follow ?
    
    I could imagine that "packages" might be a lot more expensive
    in some European countries, where either unions are strong
    and/or worklaws make lay-offs pretty expensive.
    Any facts ?
    Without beeing too precise (it scares me off to actually check out!)
    DEC would ow me ca. 2 years of pay if fired for "economic" reasons.
    I'd still prefer to stay
    /fred
    

    
    	Probably in UK_DIGITAL on MARVIN.  
    
    	{KP7 to place in notebook.}
    
    	- Jim

    re: .238
    Thanks for the pointer.
    Actually to be honest, I wasn't that much interested in particular
    U.K issues, but rather a bit disappointed by maybe perceived
    lack of interest from the international audience.
    
    Not too long ago, a note relating some "strange" personnel manager
    behaviour in Germany created international concern and actually
    helped solve the problem.
    
    Today it seems that internationalism is somewhat fading within
    the DEC community. 
    Is DIGITAL still THE DIGITAL conference, or should it be renamed
    to "United States" notefile, as there are U.K, GERMANY...etc etc
    Notesfiles, pardon, Conferences.
    
    Fred

    
>Worldwide News                      LIVE WIRE

> Digital to provide incentives for more U.S. employees to leave

................text deleted...

>  In addition, the employees who are offered and accept the package will be 
>  able to maintain their medical, dental and life insurance coverage for one 
>  year.  


	  Does anyone *know* who pays for the above? 

	  The C.O.B.R.A. law *requires* employers to offer insurance
	  continuation to severed workers at the *workers* expense.
	  
	  Please, no opinions. Just facts. (And before you jump, read the
	  extracted text carefully.)
	  	  

         If this package is anything similar to the previous one (aside
    from cash value), DIGITAL will be paying for most of the coverage for
    the ex-employee and the ex-employee will still be paying the same
    amount that they were having extracted from their pay while still
    employed (dependent coverage, etc.).
    
                                        Greg

re.239:

Many Europeans follow this conference but for U.S. news, which is what this 
conference mostly consists of.

I am being made redundant by Digital UK. The package is 3 months pay plus 1 
month for each year of service. There is a bonus of three extra months pay 
for accepting redundancy within one month (the alternative is to try and 
get into a transition pool). It is a layoff and it is not voluntary.

Dave.

>It is a layoff and it is not voluntary.

Were you given the option of finding another job?   (You do refer to
"accepting redundancy" so it sounds like it's not exactly a layoff.)

/john

    Re .242
    
    Dave, I agree with John, a layoff is when you are told not to come to
    work anymore(with or without severnce pay). You have the option of
    staying with the company, or is it diffucult to get into the transition
    pool?.  But I agree it is not a voluntary plan since you don't have an
    option to remain at your current position. In addition, your buy-out
    package sound much better than the  current US package.  I would get
    about 55 weeks as you have described it with the UK plan.  With the US 
    plan I would only get about 25 weeks.
    
    Bruce

re.243:

>Were you given the option of finding another job?   

I am able to apply for jobs that are posted on VTX. There is no guarentee 
that anybody will be transferred into the transition pool. All those being 
made redundant are being given three months notice at the end of that time 
you will not have a job unless;

1. You have sucessfully applied for an internal job.
2. You are transferred, for an additional six months, into the transition 
   pool (Note: at the end of that six months, if still without a job, you
   will still be redundant).

As neither 1 or 2 are very likely, I have decided not to go into the 
transition pool (if offered) and get the three months bonus instead.

Dave.

That certainly doesn't sound like a layoff, unless the cards are really
stacked against you.

It sounds to me more like either your standards are too high for the jobs
that might be offerred or DEC's standards are too high to use you.

One would think that _any_ qualified employee could find another internal
job with six months to do so.  Especially with other groups unable to hire
from the outside.

/john

re.246:

>That certainly doesn't sound like a layoff, unless the cards are really
>stacked against you.

What is it you have against the word layoff? I am being made redundant, my 
job has gone away, I am not being offered an alternative (although there is 
nothing to stop me looking until my leaving date). To me, redundancy and 
layoff are the same and I think that is where we disagree.

>It sounds to me more like either your standards are too high for the jobs
>that might be offerred or DEC's standards are too high to use you.

Yes, my standards are high. Digital's standards are too low to use me :-)

>One would think that _any_ qualified employee could find another internal
>job with six months to do so.  Especially with other groups unable to hire
>from the outside.

Of course, I could be a widget fixer two or three levels below my 
current level but I would not be doing myself or Digital any favours. Why 
should anyone give up a large amount of money to work at a lower grade or 
some other job just for the sake of a job. It is also quite possible that 
the right job might come up but that is a gamble against the certainty of 
the redundancy payment. IMHO, _any_ qualified employee would be better off
taking any money offered AND get a job outside which is equivalent or better
than their Digital job. Any job Digital now has to offer would have to be
very good indeed to compete with the redundancy payment plus a equivalent
job outside.

Dave.

    Re .246....and John's statement that "anybody" can find a job within
    six months.  I personally know a lot of people over the past four or
    five years who looked for jobs internally for up to two years, and
    these were good folks, including yours truly.  
    
    I'll tell you absolutely, that if you are over 45, you are dead meat.
    The company will deny it vigorously, but I have lived it, and know
    many others who are dealing with it now.  I can only imagine how
    difficult it is now.

	Layoff - is walked out the door (or close to it) with no option of
	staying with the company.

	Redundancy - is being told to find another job within the
	company to because the one you are presently doing is redundant.

	Finding another job within 6 months may be difficult but not
	impossible.  One may be forced to take a position with "less
	status" but the pay check does not get smaller, it just doesn't
	get any larger for a long while.

	Question:  What is better - no pay check or one that is the
	same as the present one?

	IMHO - most of the complaints about the packages is from the
	point of view of "elitest" status seeking non-worker-bees.
	We are all responsible for the waste in this company, and maybe
	if we all started doing "the right thing" instead of complaining
	about the other person who is getting away with stuff, there
	might not be any worry about layoffs.

	I have worked in Stow and I know that there is a lot of waste
	there, but there is also alot of waste in ZKO, the MILL, LKG
	Seattle, Charlotte and especially VRO.  Who works in these
	places, all types of individuals - most of whom are good sensible
	individuals.  I am sure that we all could make a list of people
	DEC could do without but our lists will probably include each
	other.

	If you are honest with yourself about the amount of effort you
	put into your projects, and are willing to extract your ego
	out of getting "your pet" project accepted and done.  DEC just
	might start producing products that the customer wants and
	can use.

	_peggy

Peggy,

I don't know if you are familiar with British vernacular or not, but
"being made redundant" has a rather specific meaning in the U.K.

Almost any company other than DEC would not have a transition plan
or even allow internal transfer for an employee who was "made redundant."

Most companies who tell you you are "being made redundant" are laying you
off.

In this case, it does not sound like DEC is laying off, but they may be
setting up conditions which will result in a reduction in staff through
beneficial payments.

/john

>	Redundancy - is being told to find another job within the
>	company to because the one you are presently doing is redundant.

Redundant in my dictionary and in common UK usage is "of a worker deprived 
of a job because he is no longer needed". Redundancy payment is "a sum of 
money given to a worker who is made redundant by an employer". Layoff is 
not so clearly defined, "the act of laying off, especially temporary 
unemployment, or the period of this.

Dave.

What are the UK laws concerning redundancy payments?  Is
some kind of payment mandatory? - I.E, they can't just tell
you "your job no longer exists: work your 3 months notice,
then goodbye".

    This discussion of the two plans just supports the weakness/lack
    of the motto  "Pay for Performance". DEC likes to "double talk"
    this issue to death. The feeling is that the excess people and lower
    performers were offered the better package and now more excess and
    low performance personnel are offered the less "enticing" package.
    
    Hmmm.
    Mike
    

re.252:

>What are the UK laws concerning redundancy payments?  

The miniumum is 1 weeks pay per year of service up to a maximum of 20 weeks.

Dave.

plus 13 weeks notice, for a total of up to 33 weeks.

In the U.S., it's out the door with no redundancy payments and no notice.

(Only if the layoff is "large" is there a requirement for 60 days notice.)

Of course, in a country where there are no laws requiring any paid vacations...

    13 weeks notice less 3 weeks possibly as we're paid in advance....

    Has anyone heard of any groups/individuals being offered the current
    "pkg" yet?  Plenty of rumors flying around but nothing official yet
    here at BUO. 

    No, haven't heard a thing yet....and I, for one, would certainly like
    the opportunity to volunteer.  But, I'll bet my group is not impacted.
    
    Too bad.

         I have heard some rumors of it being offered at the CSC in
    Colorado Springs, but I don't know for sure.
    
                                   Greg

     something isn't jiving here
    
    I am in EIS in Minneapolis - part of the too large CSR - I just saw a
    document that shows the need within CSR for about 20 additional
    specialists for assignments of 6 months or longer; not to mention scads
    of short term ones that might be coupled together
    
    Most of these appear to be immediate customer-driven needs for
    experienced VMS development people ... so I wouldn't expect a perfect
    with everyone who is in excess and would also not expect everyone of
    them to jump at the chance to move ... still, it seems like an active
    matching service between needs in point A and haves in point B might be
    a logical process to put in place. We have acquired some good people
    through COD but interviewed many to get a few ... and COD is just a
    snapshot in time gesture. Our margin requirements don't allow much
    leeway for finding people now to develop for what might happen in 3 to
    6 months
    
    by the way, those 20 people each drop 40 to 60 K of good margin revenue
    to the bottom line each quarter - plus all of the incremental products
    which result - and if we can put an 'excess' person into the slot we
    (DEC) gains twice (ie we meet the customer need and move a person into
    a productive slot)
    
    Finding resources is possibly the most frustrating part of a field
    manager's job ... knowing that there are folks somewhere who might be
    ready, willing and able to help (but we can't connect) doesn't help
    that feeling!
    

re:                   <<< Note 598.257 by CECV03::C_ROBINSON >>>

The "rumor" I heard is that targets for package are to be announced at
the quarter transition (i.e. late Sep/early Oct).

-Jack

    Just heard that Marketing had been given the go ahead to start offering
    the current pkg...no details...

    re: .-1  "Marketing"
    
    Could you qualify this just a little bit?  I know of at least five
    different organizations that go by the name of "Marketing" in some
    form or fashion.
    
    Geoff
    

    Saw a memo from Jack Smith to his subordinates yesterday.  It stated
    that he wanted the "plans" for consolidation and site closings,
    reduction of population, and 20% cut in temporary workforce by the end
    of Sep, in his hands by today...

    Well, it's October 26th and still no defined plans for any of
    the previously mentioned!  What's up????  Only rumors again............
    

    
    I suggest you read today's Herald (and probably the Globe). Seems
    Jack and Ken are beginning to use the "L" word....

    Re: .267
    
    Care to enlighten those of us outside of Herald and Globe territory?
    
    Thanks
    
    kjg
    

	... and the middle of A section somewhere has an article where Jack
Smith is quoted as saying " ...we may have to look at involuntary methods ..." per-
taining to the current downsizing.

     From the Herald - I haven't seen the Globe today but was told
     there was a piece in there as well.
    
    
    DEC AIDE ADMITS LAYOFFS ARE NOW OPTION
    
    Digital Equipment Corp.'s senior vice president, John F. Smith,
    said yesterday the Maynard computer maker may layoff workers to
    cut costs if revenue falls short of its forecasts. 
    
    Smith told the Dow Jones News Service that Digital's voluntary
    severance plan has been going well, but "if we don't get the results
    we need, then involuntary cuts are an option we have to consider".
    
    The article goes on to talk about our history of no layoffs and
    the cuts we've already made. It also talks about the stock price
    and has the usual quotes from analysts saying we should just bite
    the bullet and do it. There's a half paragraph about the 6000 and
    VMS announcement. 

Re .270

Off the topic, but if I was Senior Vice President of a $12B company, I might be 
amused to be characterized as an Aide.

        Re: .271

>Off the topic, but if I was Senior Vice President of a $12B company, I might be
>amused to be characterized as an Aide.

        It's better than being called a Hindrance.

I know of at least one case where the layoff is not voluntary. Any others?

 The VOGON News Service         

 Monday 29-Oct-1990   8443
  
 COMPUTER NEWS

 Digital Equipment - Mulls the possibility of layoffs
	{The Wall Street Journal, 26-Oct-90, p. A5} {MISG}
   A top official of Digital Equipment Corp. said the computer maker is
 considering layoffs to cut costs if revenue falls short of forecasts. Digital
 has long had a tradition of avoiding layoffs. Separately, as expected, Digital
 unveiled a new, faster versions of its VAX 6000 midrange computers, and said
 the new machines are available for sale immediately. The machines are part of
 Digital's efforts to reverse a revenue slump and earnings decline that have
 prompted 3,200 work-force cuts by attrition and resignation incentives. But in
 an interview, John F. Smith, senior vice president, said Digital has "to be
 ready to take the next step" to reduce the headcount by 5,000 to 6,000 more
 workers in its current fiscal year ending next June 30. The company currently
 has 123,500 employees. "Our target was always 8,000," said Mr. Smith. The
 voluntary severance program has been going well, he added, but "if we don't
 get the results we need, then involuntary cuts are an option we have to
 consider."                                           

    I read this last week in the WSJ and was confused, which is nothing new
    relative to the job situation here...does this mean:
    
    1) 5,000 to 6,000 more people, on top of the 5-6K people under the
    current voluntary severance program? (I don't think so, but this isn't
    clear)
    
    2) What does "our target always was 8,000" mean?  At the DECWorld news
    conference that started all of this, and the followon reports, a lot
    was made of a reported amount of 8,000 people being inaccurate.  Does
    this mean that the voluntary severance plan is being given to enough
    people to get rid of 8,000?  Or does it mean that 2,000 actual layoffs
    will occur on top of the 5-6K severance plan people?  Again, unclear.
    
    As usual, confusion reigns; it's probably best to just disregard the
    entire process until it comes home to roost.

    
    I believe the 8,000 includes those who have already left.

Re: 274
    
 Digital Equipment - Mulls the possibility of layoffs
	{The Wall Street Journal, 26-Oct-90, p. A5} {MISG}
>>   A top official of Digital Equipment Corp. said the computer maker is
>> considering layoffs to cut costs if revenue falls short of forecasts. Digital
   has long had a tradition of avoiding layoffs. Separately, as expected, Digital
   unveiled a new, faster versions of its VAX 6000 midrange computers, and said
   the new machines are available for sale immediately. The machines are part of
   Digital's efforts to reverse a revenue slump and earnings decline that have
   prompted 3,200 work-force cuts by attrition and resignation incentives. But in
   an interview, John F. Smith, senior vice president, said Digital has "to be
  ready to take the next step" to reduce the headcount by 5,000 to 6,000 more
  workers in its current fiscal year ending next June 30. The company currently
  has 123,500 employees. "Our target was always 8,000," said Mr. Smith. The
  voluntary severance program has been going well, he added, but "if we don't
>> get the results we need, then involuntary cuts are an option we have to
>> consider."                                           

    
    
    Where does he say the "L" word ?? Invountary cuts MAY not mean layoffs.
    
    	IE:
    
    		Dismiss (fire) poor performers (a subject for another
    		discussion)
    
    		Select people for the severance package..
    
    What got me going was the articles that says we are going to layoff
    people. I've never, never, seen a quote from ANY DEC spokesperson that
    indicated we were going to have a layoff..
    
    Jim
    

re .277:

>    		Select people for the severance package..

What's the difference between involuntary severance and a layoff?

    RE .278
    
    My guess, in this case, is money. Involuntary severance with the
    package, vs. layoff with minimal (if any) severance money. 

Perhaps "involuntary severance" is when it happens to your employees,
and a layoff is when it happens to you.

    
    
    
    Layoff = don't bother coming to work tommorow. We'll call you
    	     when and if things turn around.
    
    		In simply terms, see ya later.
    
    Voluntary Severance = Here's the seperation package. Take it.
    
    NOW, the question comes to mind, whay if someone doesn't take it ?
    
    Jim
    

    That should have been Involuntary....
    
    
    

    
>    Layoff = don't bother coming to work tommorow. We'll call you
>    	     when and if things turn around.
    
>    Voluntary Severance = Here's the seperation package. Take it.


	there's no difference between the two.  A "layoff" is a dismissal
	of employees.  It has NOTHING to do with what sort of "package"
	they receive.

	It could come in a walk to the door that day, or it could come with
	a "four weeks from today you're no longer an employee here."  By
	law, companies are required to give a certain amount of
	compensation in a layoff.  If the company CHOOSES to give more,
	it does not change the fact that it is still "dismissal of
	employees."


	I would hope that if Digital did decide to make the "package"
	involuntary (ie, a layoff) they would offer the current package
	with no options (ie, 13+ weeks).  (My father got 4 weeks and
	no benefits from his company--a major defense company).


	kathy

In Europe the following terms apply equally:
Involuntary severence = Redundancy = Layoff = Firing = Termination

All are happening here. The sole difference is whether your performance merits
the "package" (which includes non-law mandated offerings, ie., Digital has 
offered outplacement), or not.Local law mandates the termination "compensation".
For instance, in France, by law the company must offer one month's salary
for each year of service. In Switzerland, the same is offered, but is not 
mandated by law.

Any other European termination schemes to be contributed here?

>                <<< Note 598.284 by HERON::PERLA "Tony Perla" >>>
> In Europe the following terms apply equally:
> Involuntary severence = Redundancy = Layoff = Firing = Termination

In the US, these terms aren't synonyms.
Redundancy is not used in the Eurpoean way, if it's used at all.
All the others are forms of involuntary severence.
A layoff is (perhaps optimistically) a temporary situation, sometimes
also called a furlough.  Reinstatement is typically projected, if not expected.
Firing is dismissal for cause without expectation of reinstatement.
Termination can, in some jargons, be either voluntary or forced,
though the former is rare.

- tom]

    Historically, a layoff is temporary ... in as much as the company
    considered you an unpaid employee without an active job in the company.
    
    In more modern times, employees were laid off with the intention of
    being re-hired, but during the layoff period their jobs actually
    disappeared because of re-orgs, plant closings etc.
    
    Today, don't expect to be re-hired when you are laid off!
    
    

    Take it from someone who has been laid off twice in the computer
    industry in the last 5 years..layoff means you are out of a job...
    there is no job to come back to ...in one case... the job moved from 
    Boston to Phoenix and was combined with  another operation...in another
    case ...it was bad times and major (50%) workforce reduction...my
    husband...also now a DECie has similar experience...2 layoffs in the 
    last 5 years ...in one case the company closed due to bankrupcy (not
    reorganization, so there was no way anyone would ever be recalled 
    to work) and the other case for him was major corporate 
    downsizing...This is four unique separate instances...where layoff was
    "no job...don't hold your breath waiting.."   
    
    DEC people have just gotten a little too comfortable...layoffs (i.e.
    no job..ever) are a way of life for the rest of the computer industry 
    when bad times hit....and those of us who have been out there know 
    that  most companies would consider 2 weeks pay a more then generous
    severence plan...if you got LUCKY you might get 4 weeks!
    
    Welcome to the real world...
    
    -sue
      

        Re: .286 (History)
        
        Layoffs mean different things in different industries.  In the
        construction industries layoffs are often temporary.  I have one
        friend who has been laid off and brought back several times in
        the past few years by a company that makes exhibits for trade
        shows.  When work slows down they eliminate overtime, then cut
        hours, then have employees clean and repair their equipment and
        work areas, then let employees work on their own projects on
        company time, and then, if it looks like no business will be
        coming soon, lay off some employees.  What usually happens next
        (after some period of time) is a big job with a short deadline
        appears and everyone is back working 80 hour weeks.

        However, I have never heard of such a situation in the computer
        industry (but it probably has occurred once or twice).

        					B.J.

    Its just been posted in LIVEWIRE USnews, that the current package ends
    Nov. 30, and only organizations whose plans have been approved and 
    announced will be allowed to participate.  Digital will decide at that
    time, according to the results of this package, what further, if any
    steps will be neccessary.

    re:.284 (Europe)
    It might be worse than:
    Termination (redundancy style) = legal + DEC package
    Termination (performance style)= legal package
    
    In France "low performance" might translate into "faut professionelle"
    which would mean minimal or no legal package (definately no
    1 month/year of service compensation).
    /fred
    

    
    It is being reported in the Irish press that Digital Ireland will
    offer a seperation package.
    

    Details are limited.
    
    In summary, the package will be offered to "Ireland Manufacturing". 
    Assumption is that this refers to the 3 manufacturing sites in Ireland
    - Ballybrit (ISB/MSB system plant), Mervue (European Software Supply
    Business), and Clonmel (Power and Nets & Comms).
    
    The package will be "restrictive" in nature and "voluntary".  The
    interpretation of this is that it will be open to ALL (except certain
    categories (TBD) of individuals) but that no-one will be forced to take
    any package.
    
    Assumed uptake will be approximately 100 people.
    
    Further details will be announced by the end of November.
    
    Mike

    
    
    	Early Retirement question....
    
    	If I leave DEC, with 10+ years of service, before age 55 
    	(laid-off, quit, fired, took the package, whatever) can I, 
    	at age request "early retirement" and begin to collect 50%
    	of whatever I would have received at age 65?  Would I also
    	become part of (have access to) the retiree's health plan(s)?
    

re .-1
    
>    	If I leave DEC, with 10+ years of service, before age 55 
>    	(laid-off, quit, fired, took the package, whatever) can I, 
>    	at age request "early retirement" and begin to collect 50%
>    	of whatever I would have received at age 65?  

I presume you mean "...at age 55 request...".  Yes, you can.
			      ^^
>	Would I also become part of (have access to) the retiree's health 
>	plan(s)?

Nope.

I don't know if you would have access to a lump sum settlement at age 55, or 
any other age, for that matter.  Anybody know?
    
Larry

    Depends on the pension plan.
    
    Last summer, I opted for the UK over-50s Voluntary Redundancy program,
    and took advantage of the "early retirement" option in the UK pension
    plan (at aged 54).
    
    This plan allows you to take an immediate pension, but with a very
    hefty actuarial hit on the amount (4% per annum for each year up to
    aged 60). However the UK tax laws allow over-50s to reseed redundancy
    money into the pension fund without a tax hit.
    
    Depending on your tax position, there seems to be a marginal advantage
    in taking an immediate pension, if only to get access to the tax-free
    bounty from the pension fund. (I speak for the UK environment only)
    
    John

re .296;

Ummm, I'm not sure if I can find a "good way" to say this, but....

if you opted for the voluntary redundancy program last summer, why are
you still here?

Puzzled Peter.

    If you are 55 years old and over 10 years with DEC, you can take early
    retirement.  You can take a lump sum payment plus receive your
    benefits, such as medical, etc.  You can opt to take monthly payments
    the rest of your life at reduced sum.
    
    If you are 55 years old and under 10 years with DEC and over 5 years
    with DEC, you can start drawing early retirement at reduced monthly
    payments rest of your life.  Can not get lump sum payout.
    
    To me age 55 and over 10 years is magic numbers to reach if you want
    more control of your retirement money.
    
    Bob

    re -1
    
    Easy..... I'm a ghost in the system, doomed to wander the networks 
    eternally in search of enlightenment.
    
    On the other hand, I might just be a trusted external contractor that 
    has some specific skills, experience and relationships that DEC needs
    to use, but not for 100% of the time.  
    
    You choose (but don't step on my long, white sheet !).
    
    :-)
    
    
    John

    
    	Re: .298 (Bob)
    
    	Thanks for your input, it answered a few questions.  The major
    	question, that still remains in my mind, is are ALL of those 
    	benefits available for the (qualified) employee that has left 
    	DEC and applies for early retirement?
    
    	What prompts this query is discussins about "packages" and such.
    
    	The question arose.. 'what if you get the package before you're
    	eligable to retire, but you become eligible by the time the 
    	package has expired?  Are any early retirement benefits lost?'
    

    Yes, if you take the package and are 55 and over 10 years with
    company, you can take everything like in last note I wrote.
    
    If you are under 55 and over 5 years with company, you can collect
    retirement at 55.
    
    Bob

    If you are under 55, over 10 yrs service, get the package, at 55 can
    you get the medical etc or just the $ ???

    The answer I got was NO.  It is important to make 55 and over 10 years
    of service.  I was placed on transition last year at this time, and
    was going to leave the company.  Then I found out the magic number
    were 55 and 10.  I was 54 at the time and would be 55 in Aug 1991.
    
    Lucky for me I found this job, which let me get all the numbers
    required.  Now I have a retirement coming that is worth more then
    if I left last year.
    
    7 more years with DEC and it will even be better.
    
    Bob 

    There is another (rumor) retirement plan circulating around here that
    is too good to be true. Supposed to be acted on at the end of this
    month. Its also for the 50+ people to get out. They call it Plan A,B,
    C. Something like the add 5 yrs. on to your age thing. Anyone have any
    more info on this one? I have the pen waiting to sign. :-)

    Sounds too much like IBM's program a couple years ago -