Conference 7.286::digital

    Well, Greg, I agree that VAX Notes needs enhancement so that this
    type of posting doesn't prove to be a point of contention between
    interactive noters and those of us in the boonies.  But given that
    we need to live with what we got, I don't flame, I only put in a
    plea to interactive noters that there are fellow employees not as
    fortunate as you to be in the center of the DEC network.  So think
    twice before you include a big file in a note.

  --Simon
    

    Incidentally, already in the Wish List is a /LINE_LIMIT qualifier for
    the EXTRACT command.  Granted, this only treats the symptom, not the
    root of the problem.  ENOTES already implemented /LINE_LIMIT, so, to
    avoid this particular problem, use ENOTES.  (See DECWET::ENOTES.)
    
  --Simon
    

Hi Simon,

I logged in early to delete and reenter my post-midnight reply, softening
my umbrage, but you beat me to it.

To your "try living over here for awhile", I can only reply "well,
try living over here for awhile".   :-)

Seriously, I live with the same problem since half the conferences
I must track are either in Europe or GIA, so I don't really feel
I've the special "network hub" position you might think.  I regulairly
deal with 300-500 line replies in these remote-to-me databases.

Since there is already a fix (line_limit), now I'm a tad more upset
by the original note that before.  Here's why:

	VAXnotes is intended to be interactive and it goes against
	my sensibilities to crimp its proper use to overcome a network
	problem (that has a structured workaround anyway).

	Pointers make sense sometimes, but are a bad idea other
	times.  They make the conference incomplete.  Suppose the
	pointed to material dissappears or changes?  A pointer
	presumes a responsibility (by someone) to maintain the
	pointed to information.  If I return to the conference
	a year later will the pointed reference still be valid?

	If it has been updated, can I track its evolution?

	Pointed references are not scanned by SEARCH commands in notes.

	Pointed references require extra work for the ordinary
	interactive accessor who must then exit notes, open a
	file remotely, decide if they are interested, possibly
	copy if the data is volatile --- all of which could just
	be a "next unseen" if the original is included.

	Pointed references increase the number of "public
	directories" floating about;  which may not always
	be a good idea, especially if maintained by an
	individual subject to transfer (purging, quotas, etc.)

	Pointed references obviously don't work in restricted
	conferences --- "please send mail if you want to see
	'x'" has to be used instead --- that is an even more
	odious approach, though moot to this specific example.

My point?  There isn't a simple answer and people should not castigate
others (for example the person who authored the reply that triggered
this as a gratutious good deed) as a generality.  It can't simply be
said, "don't enter long notes" since that rule causes as many problems
as it seeks to redress.  Instead, where a pointer might _specifically_
be a better approach, given the length and content of material, its
volatility, the contributor's resources and involvement, the availability
of an appropriate place to make it public, its timeliness, and its
sensitivity (or lack thereof), then it is appropriate to advise and
help the contributor with a constructive alternative.

Perhaps someone with a good knack for articulating this kind of
wisdom and judgement (like Simon?) might create a "guideline"
that balances the various issues?

I've hope I've made myself clear that this is a judgemental issue
and that generic "I'm a batch noter" flames aren't appropriate, and
could even cause some "helpful souls" to think twice before they
next try and help their neighbor.

- greg

ps: BTW, the balance between "Maynard Central" and a truely equally
    distributed multinational company status for Digital seems, to
    this observer, to be definately swinging towards a more world-wide
    orientation, which I applaud, but which means we are all now
    "remote addresses".

    :-)

Re .3:

I submit that in the instance of 474.1, the maintainer of the policy document
either could supply a pointer to an officially updated online copy upon request,
or in this day-and-age within Digital might well have a responsibility to
establish such an electronic reference copy in order to facilitate its
publication and use.  (I make no assumption about whether Arlene Casey has
that responsibility).

I greatly prefer pointers to maintained documents, rather than dead pages of
text in a conference.  I feel much safer in assuming that I don't have to read
all of the referenced text in order to be properly informed about the flow
of the discussion.  Even if I don't feel the need to read the included text, I
find the note often ends with a "parting shot" by the note's author which must
be read to appreciate the discussion which follows.  And if VAX Notes allows
access to the last screenfull of a note without fetching every preceding line, I
don't know how to do it.  Reading a thousand line note over a slow data link
just to see if there is some unique data in a postscript is torture. I certainly
don't think that anyone who does that is entitled to expect that their comment
has been read by respondents.

If this discussion would be more appropriate in HUMAN::ETIQUETTE (q.v.), I'll be
glad to follow it there.  I checked, and there is no topic whose title seems to 
imply that this exact issue has been discussed there yet.
				/AHM

    As suggested, I have created a new topic (99) in HUMAN::ETIQUETTE
    for this discussion.  In my note I cited two examples of what I
    think are probably inappropriate for posting as notes.  You are
    welcome to add your contribution, take another position, etc.

    re .3:  Hi Greg, I guess now it isn't safe anymore to leave notes
    around overnight because Simon notes while you sleep.

>Since there is already a fix (line_limit), now I'm a tad more upset
    
    Ah but not everybody knows about ENOTES, and not everybody who uses
    ENOTES knows enough to use /LINE_LIMIT.  (Sometimes I forget, and
    then kick myself when I run up against a biggie.)

  --Simon
    

    Ahem...  Could we have a pointer to a description of Enotes?
    
    Jim
    

               <<< DECWET::DOCD$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]ENOTES.NOTE;1 >>>
                       ENOTES - VAX Notes Batch Extractor
Created: 14-JUL-1986 08:18         104 topics         Updated: 24-FEB-1988 09:19

================================================================================
Note 1.0                             Welcome                          No replies
DECWET::SCHREIBER "Benn"                              5 lines  14-JUL-1986 08:21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This conference is for the discussion of ENOTES.  ENOTES is a VAX
    NOTES batch extractor.
    
    ENOTES allows you to fetch notes in batch and read them at your
    leisure, without waiting on network traffic/delays.

    The following information is condensed from notes 2.* in the ENOTES
    conference.
    
    Kit locations:
    DECWET::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[PUBLIC]ENOTES.SAV	!West coast
    CLT::NOTES$KIT:ENOTES.SAV			!East coast

    There is no installation procedure (using VMSINSTAL) so that people
    can use ENOTES without having to pester their system managers to
    install it.  (But system managers certainly can put ENOTES on their
    systems, if they can be persuaded.)

    $ BACKUP ENOTES.SAV/SAV/SELECT=*.* *
    
    This will put all the files contained in the ENOTES saveset into
    your current directory.  Then read ENOTES.TXT and ENOTES.HLP for
    additional information.
    
    ENOTES does not have an internal HELP command.  However, you can say:
    $ LIBRARY/CREATE dev:[dir]enotes_help/HELP dev:[dir]ENOTES.HLP
    
    Then, you can say:
    $ HELP/LIBRARY=dev:[dir]enotes_help ENOTES