Conference 7.286::digital

No, you're not alone. I know several people, myself included, who've
had a tough time dealing with personnel. If you're on the outside looking
in, it's even worse since it's sometimes difficult to know who the hiring
manager is. If you're already on the inside then at least you can skip
personnel altogether, which is not difficult since you can rarely find them
anyway.

Jenna

    
    The last 3 resumes I sent to Digital Recruiters (all in reply to
    jobs posted in VTX Jobs Book) got no response whatsoever.
    Two were sent to the same recruiter, so after one month, I followed
    up with a VAXMAIL query:  Why have I received no response?  
    I still haven't heard from him.
    The other requisition has been put "on hold", but of course, no
    one thought to tell me that.
    
    Don Montgomery
    

    I've worked at Digital as writer for almost three years now. When
    I began looking for a job, my brother (who has worked at Digital
    even longer--in personnel!) gave me the name of a recruiter of
    technical writers. The results were discouragingly negative. 
    
    The tactic that got me my job involved taking the names of writing
    technical advisors off the back of a Middlesex Community College
    brochure.  The person I contacted happened to be the highest placed
    manager on the list.
    
    My theory is that recruiters are hard-pressed and tend to work from a
    fairly rigid formula.  If you don't fit the mold exactly, you get cut
    early. Managers, on the other hand, tend to be more flexible and
    innovative--they also know exactly what the jobs they need to
    fill are like. In many cases, the recruiter has only a vague idea.

I've had simular experiences, I only refer 1st class people and they get 
2nd class treatment. Makes you wonder how we all got here :-)

This is one of my top ten gripes!

Dave.

    I have also had the exact problem you describe. I tried getting
    my girlfriend hired by contacting a personnel rep directly. She
    did get an interview and was told she will be called on a few
    days for a followup interview with the hiring manager. That call
    never came. I contacted the rep and asked her what's going on and
    she gave me some crazy excuse about why she did not call her yet.
    (However she was still very much interested in hiring my girlfriend,
    enough to set up an interview with someone at a high level corporate
    postion) Needless to say, that interview never came.
    	 At this point I went to the bulletin board and jotted a list
    of managers looking for secretaries and called them directly. Every
    one of them thanked me for calling them and told me to immediately
    send her resume due to the fact that they were having a hard time
    with their personnel rep in getting prospects.  The manager who
    eventually hired her took time out to track me down and thank
    me in person for referring her.  
    
    	It sounds like its all over Digital

    
    It's an old old story, but I can't resist a chance to complain!
    
    I have been trying to get a full time position in this company since
    early summer.  Sure, I'm a temp, but that doesn't make me any less
    qualified than any other candidate for a secretarial position, does
    it?  In this company, I think it does!  I have been working for
    DEC since 1984 as a temp and I have seen the workings of every kind
    of group you can come up with.  I know this company well and I am
    reluctant to look elsewhere for my career, but personnel is going
    to force me to!
    
    I have had a minimum of 7 interviews.  Of those seven, one I made
    my plans directly with the hiring manager.  That interview was also
    refered to me by a friend in that group.  The hiring manager called
    me the NEXT DAY to tell me that she had decided to go with another
    candidate and WHY.  That was the most consideration I have received
    so far.  All the others I haven't heard so much as a peep from the
    hiring managers OR personnel.  No "sorry, you aren't right for the
    job" no "check back with us in a week to see" nothing!  Not even
    a form letter of rejection.  Even that is better than nothing.
    
    I keep getting advice from friends to call and/or send notes to
    the recruiters I've spoken with to hound them for information. 
    Sure, I sent a note to them.  Sure, I called and left messages.
    Did I get any consideration?  NO.  I shouldn't be the one to hunt
    them down!  They need ME?  Or am I assuming wrong? 
    
    I sit here, still a temp, still looking for a job, and feeling very
    down on this company and it's personnel people.
    
    

    
    	As long as we are swapping war stories....
    
    	Over a year ago I interviewed for my current job. All the
    interviews went very well until the last one with personnel. The
    personnel person told me pretty much that my chances we slim, there
    were alot of people trying for this job, many of which had a college
    education, many of which were better qualified, etc..  I told her
    straight out that I didn't care what anyone else was or is that
    I was contacted by the manager to interview and that if he didn't
    think that I was good enough to do the job I wouldn't be interviewing.
    She got a little flustered and said "My, aren't we cocky?" and I
    said "Sure, why not?  I know how to do the job and I think it would
    be advantagous to DEC and my career to take it if it's offered."  She 
    didn't think so and it took 3 months to get me in here.. Fortunately, 
    I proved her wrong and that shows on my reviews.
    
    	Personnel tries to match people for the job. Unfortunately,
    they are the ones with the least experience IN said job and seem
    to have lots of input. Personally (no pun), I think that whole
    aspect should be reviewed. I'm not out to purge personnel but some
    practices, as evidenced by the many notes here, should be looked
    into..
    
    							mike

       Temps aren't the only ones who aren't contacted about the results
    of an interview. DEC managers are notorious for their lack of common
    courtesy in this area.
                                        Denny

    Eight years ago Digital had and ad in Computerworld for staff for
    the new telephone support center in Colorado Springs that was just
    getting going. I thought it sounded right up my alley so I called
    the 800 number in the ad (to greater Maynard). They said send a
    resume. I did. I waited. Nothing. Called again. Said send a resume.
    I did. Waited. Nothing. This repeated over and over again for eight
    weeks with the flunky on the phone saying they had never heard of
    me, "send a resume". Finally I got a personnel manager that happened
    to be covering the phones in an emergency and said "you sound like
    just what they are looking for, I'll have the hiring manager call
    you". Two hours later I got the call. Four days later I had flown
    to Colorado for an interview and had an offer in hand.

    When I moved from the CSC to engineering two years ago I went through
    personnel but I hand walked everything. From sitting on the recruiter's
    desk until they would set up interviews to calling and harassing
    them until they got the offer processed. The one thing they did
    right was they advised me to contact the hiring manager directly
    and sell myself prior to the interview to insure I was not screened
    out for some dumb reason.
    
    				Dick
        

    
    Since May I have been trying to get my brother hired at the CSC
    in Colorado Springs.  I sent some mail to a guy who advertised in
    the Jobs notes for Language Support (my brother is a Pascal Guru)
    and he send send a resume.  I did.  My brother was interviewed but
    nothing happened.  He called his recruiter every week.  Phone calls
    were not returned and when he did get him the answer was the job
    was frozen.  I called to check and heard the job was frozen.
    
    Charlie (my brother) turned down a job still hoping for CSC to come
    thru.  Finally in September I stopped by personnel and asked to
    see the recruiter.  He was gone, permanently, from one day to the
    next.  The secretary did some terrific detective work to find a
    name of someone he had talked to and suggested he send in another
    resume.  I sent it to the secretary and within about a week Charlie
    had a telephone interview for VMS support (not his specialty) and
    about 2 weeks ago got a rejection notice for VMS support... well
    that's some acknowledgement.
    
    I'd still like to know when the original job will thaw out.  Mean-
    while, I have suggested Charlie give up on DEC and go elsewhere.
    It makes me sick to think of how indifferently he was treated and
    how nothing would have happened if I had not physically been there
    to ask.  I get the feeling that most, if not all, new graduates
    get this kind of run around.  What is really amazing is that I was
    just hired 6 months ago with very little hassle.  I guess I was
    a round peg for a round hole.  It's really embarrassing to work
    for a corporation so terrific in other ways, yet so inadequate in
    such a visible area.

In Robert Townsend's book, "Up the Organization" (still a good book on how
to run a company, many years later), he has a couple pages on each issue
that might come up.  In the section on handling personnel, his advice
is:
	"Fire the Personnel department."

    In 1973 Digital was using outside recruiters to screen the people
    answering newspaper adds. The recruiter would talk to the person
    and if he felt they where qualified, set up a second interview with
    several managers,superviors that where touring the country looking
    for good people. I think the outside recruiters where paid a bonus
    based on how many people got hired. The outside recruiters where
    technical people and did not waste time finding out what you knew.
    At that time Digital was growing at 25-35% a year. Now we seem to
    be growing at that same rate. And who said there where no good old
    days. Maybe there is a lesson in this bit of history.

    I am sickened by the inability of "personnel" to handle the simple
    task of "recruiting".
    
    In the UK we were bombarded with mail , posters etc about the new
    recruitment campaign called "DEC Steps" about 6 months ago.
    
    I had a friend who was interested in a Field service engineers job
    and I obtained the relevant application form for him which he filled
    in and returned within days. Then after ringing every week , he
    finally received a "hold" letter AFTER 5 MONTHS!!!! It is only common
    courtesy to reply to applications in as short a time as possible.
    
    I thought it was just a Newmarket problem but after reading this
    note it would appear to be widespread and unless personnel get their
    act together it is going to be impossible to recruit the right sort
    of people. I for one will think twice before subjecting any more
    of my friends to the insulting behaviour that DEC has subjected
    my friend to.
    
    Jim
    (Whose opinions of personnel are censored in the interests of job
    retention)

    If our growth rate is really the same, then I would guess at first
    glance that Personnel were trying to be "selective".  But if that's the
    case, they're doing exactly the opposite of what they should.  I would
    guess that a lot of excellent people might not want to wait five months
    to find a job, or might not be able to ( have a mortgage to pay ).  We
    probably lose quite a few to our competitors.  Only the ones who
    already own "Work Digital or Die" license plates will wait it out. 

    It's a good thing we have such a good environment, and keep telling our
    freinds in other companies about it.  Otherwise we'd be up a creek.  If
    we don't get our act together, we could be there anyway.  It's sad to
    hear that Personnel can so frustrate a temp who wants to work here that
    she is actually thinking of going somewhere else.  That sounds like a
    real bummer; you know where you want to work, and you've proven your
    worth, yet it appears that your employer isn't willing to commit to
    keeping you around.  Is this one of the signs of becoming a "large"
    company? 
    
    My own "personal" war story:

    I started working here on June 18, 1984, as a result of an interview
    which was set up through a freind in the company.  I had also sent my
    resume to a recruiter.  In September, 1984, three months after I had
    started, I received a letter at my home address.  It started out
    something like: "Thank you for your interest in Digital.  There are
    currently no positions available, but we will keep your resume on
    file..." 

    I've had many a good laugh about that letter, but it also makes me
    think.  Could part of the problem be lack of communication between
    Personnel and hiring managers?  Coming in from the outside, I had
    assumed that when I was hired my resume would drop out of circulation.
    But apparantly it did its part to clog up the system for three months.
    Are there any ties between the employee database and the Personnel
    files?  Can we get rid of the old resumes so that we can see the new
    ones and respond to them?

    Also, I've noticed that most managers are aware of the problems with
    hiring through Personnel, so they try to circumvent them.  This may
    work, but is it a good long-term plan?  Personnel can't improve if
    they're no longer in the loop.  Maybe they need more practice hiring
    people, so that they can learn what a good match is :-).  If managers
    talked loud and long with Personnel, rather than giving up and going it
    on their own, wouldn't things improve? 

RE: .-1

  > In September, 1984, three months after I had
  > started, I received a letter at my home address.  It started out
  > something like: "Thank you for your interest in Digital.  There are
  > currently no positions available, but we will keep your resume on
  > file..." 
    
    I can even beat that story.  In April, 1987, I had been an employee
    of Digital for 9 years, and my husband for six years.  We both
    interviewed for jobs in the New England area.  About *three months*
    after those interviews, Personnel sent us *each* one of the "Thank
    you for your interest in  Digital, don't call us, we'll call you"
    letters!  We considered framing them and hanging them in our respective
    offices as a tangible tribute to the quality of our Personnel organization!
    
  > If managers
  > talked loud and long with Personnel, rather than giving up and going it
  > on their own, wouldn't things improve? 
    
    I was a software unit manager in the field for four years, and fought
    this problem.  During that time I worked with exactly *one* employee
    of the Personnel organization who gave me what I considered reasonable
    responsiveness.  I tried everything I could possibly think of: 
    asking for better service, working with them as a team, escalating
    to my management (who was just as frustrated with them as I was),
    you_name_it_I_tried_it.  The response was always "We need more people",
    "We're overworked", and their favorite line "That isn't our job."
     My perception was (and still is) that they seem to spend an inordinate
    amount of time in meetings.  I don't know what they meet about,
    I just know that when you need service that's always why you can't
    get it.  When I was a manager, I used the only stick I had:  straight
    zeros on the Personnel Satisfaction Survey, every year.  It did
    no good whatsoever except to make me feel a little better.
    
    						Pat
    whose true feelings about Personnel are also censored in the interest
    of salary continuation.

I was originally interviewed by DEC in June '85.

The day I was out, news just came over the tube that the Engineering head count
quota for open reqs for that year had been hit. 

I hung in there and was finally hired in Feb '86 by the group that wanted me.

The rules were bent slightly because I had been worked for 6 months in a couple
of hacking/electronic sweat shops on account of wanting to eat and pay rent 
(luxury items, I know). The rule about DEC new college hires being only 6 
months (or whatever) out of school was over looked... heaven knows that if they
hadn't, I'd have probably never been hired. All because DEC policies kept me
from being hired for 8 months. I hope DEC has changed how the ratio of open 
college reqs being interviewed to total head count. But the entire experience 
made me wonder if DEC isn't so unlike IBM in having policies that are more 
beneficial to the corporation than to the individual. 

Rich Oberuc

    Lest this turn into a Personnel-bashing note (waddaya mean, it aready
    has?), I will point out that job recruitment is just one of the many
    functions performed by Personnel people.  It happens to the be the
    worst, but there's no science to it, and the art doesn't seem to be
    taught in house.  Where are the courses in job recruitment that we can
    send our people too?  And are these courses any good?
    
    I agree that the intuitively expedient thing to do--filter out the
    unhireable job applicants first--is wrong way round. But be careful
    not to fault the people who do this; they are simply doing what they
    believe is expected of them.  And other computer companies are no
    better at it than we are.

    RE: .19 Sure personal as a department does more then recruit but
    what else do recruiters do?
    
    I do agree that it's the system that's at fault. I don't see anyone
    in personal interested in fixing the system though. It hasn't changed
    in the 13 years I've had contact (from inside and outside) with
    it.
    
    			Alfred

    I've also been frustrated by personnel.
    
    It seems that sending resume's in response to job req's should
    be simple matter of fowarding to the hiring manager.  In my case
    I was applying for an open req that was the for my current job code.
    There should be no "screening" involved.  My resume nver got to
    the hiring manager until I sent it to him personally.  
    I interviewed and received an offer within the week.
    
    We have recently relocated and my wife's commute is now very long.
    I'm trying to get her a position in DEC.   Sending resume's to
    recruiters has gotten us no where.  I know I'm biased but there
    are reqs in the jobs book that have been open for months that she
    is very qualified for (if not overqualified) but no interviews in
    5 months.
    
    Many of us feel that DEC is a great place to work and many of us
    have spouses,brothers,friends etc who work in less desirable companies.
    I can imagine that the volume of personal referrals to recruites
    is endless.  I would guess that many just get trashed.   
    
    Is getting an interview an random chance process ?
    

RE: Sending resumes to personnel

I've referred lots of people to Digital for job opportunities. Some even
get hired. But I have NEVER told them to send their resumes/cv's to the
personnel folks. The stuff always goes DIRECTLY to the hiring manager.

And in every case they get appropriate consideration. Some managers are
better than others about returning phone calls, sending a letter, etc.
But usually I can shame them into some form of acknowledging receipt
and communication with the candidate.

I don't have any bad experiences with personnel on this count. That's
because they aren't in the loop until after the manager has made some
sort of go/nogo decision.

FYI,

K.

	FWIW, Southern Area Sales and SWS has taken the approach of letting 
"organization" people do the recruiting, letters, filtering, etc.  A senior 
sales exec, and an ex-USWM get all resumes, leads, etc., and do phone call 
qualifications, job matching, "DCUWCU" letters, req cutting, setting up
nose-to-nose interviews with hiring managers, and FINALLY, if all works out,
getting Personnel involved for the actual hiring.  Personnel probably hasn't 
contributed 10% of the current resumes on file.  I have told any possible 
candidate to send resumes to ME and I will get them to these folks!

    re .19;
    
    Why not bash personnel a bit.  It has been my experience that most
    staff departments are like weeds - they grow rapidly, consume lots
    of resources and need to be cut back occasionally.
    
    -dave

    SET CYNIC/STATE=ON
    
    It's not what you know but who you know that counts!
    
    A manager is far more likely to bring in a candidate for interview
    if somebody has recommended them than if some personel junkie drops
    a resume on a desk. When a friend or aquaintance asks me about jobs
    at Digital I tend to informally interview them first. If I think
    they would be a good match for an opening that I know of I'll
    personally give the resume to the manager and send a mail message
    with an objective recommendation (ie I put my arse on the line).
    In all cases that person has been brought in for interview.
    If I'm so so about somebody but think they may fit somewhere I'll
    take the resume to personel. 9-1 it'll get filed in the round file
    cabinet (hard to compete with all those personel recommendations
    being given directly to managers), but on the other hand something
    may come of it.
    
    Bottom line is that you're always better off end running the system
    than trying to work within it. The system is there solely to slow
    things down.
    
    Just my personal opinion...

  > Sure personal as a department does more then recruit but
  > what else do recruiters do?
    
    I actually had a recruiter tell me once that sending me applicants
    for an opening I had wasn't his job!
    
    							Pat

Re .19:

The Basic Interviewing Skills Workshop (a Central Engineering Development
Programs course) covers these topics (among others):

*  The employment process at Digital.
*  Creating a job requisition.
*  Applicant sourcing strategies.
*  Deciding which job applicants to interview.
*  How to conduct a job interview.
*  How to avoid EEO/AA illegal questions and procedures.
*  How to decide which applicant to hire.
*  How to make an offer.

I've taken this course, and found the knowledge I gained from it to be
quite helpful in conducting interviews.  I've never written a req or
made an offer, but I suspect that the material would help if I was involved
in such activities.

If you want to take a look at the materials, stop by my office.
				/AHM

     The title of this note is "Am I the only one?". Obviously not....
     
     Is anything likely to happen as a result of the 28 replies so far?
     
     Jc
     
     (Yes, we see the same thing here in Reading)

    A friend of mine, who had worked for me some years ago and came with 
    my personal recommendation, was interviewed for job in ZKO.  They
    indicated that an offer was forthcoming, but it got held up... in
    Personnel. 
    
    He had an offer outstanding from another company and he was forced to
    accept it rather than risk not getting a job at all because Digital was
    too slow in getting their offer to him.  Because of that, we lost an
    outstanding person. 
    
    In all fairness, though, I found one recruiter here in CXO who bends
    over backwards to help get things moving.  I guess she's the exception
    that proves the rule  :-)
    
    -  David

    re: .30
    
    Bill:
    
    Perhaps when you cool down you'd like to give the readers some
    constructive feedback on how to approach the problem and make some
    helpful suggestions on what can be done to improve the situation.
    
    Personal opinion is that you've struck a severe blow to an already
    tainted stereotype by choosing to mouth off with profanity and then
    (the kicker) using this NOTES file as an advertising aid. Pretty
    cute, uncalled for, unwanted, and embarrassing.
    
    I'm requesting that this (410.30) be deleted by the Moderator(s).
    Although I'm *very* interested in hearing the "other" side, your
    recuiting tactics and lack of professionalism are more disturbing
    than any of the horrors stories I could have come up with on my
    own.
    
    Steve.

    
    
    	RE: .31
    
    	Huh??????  Musta been someone else cuz I see nothing wrong with
    	.30
    							mike

    Re: The missing .30
    
    The author deleted the note after reading my reply.
    
    Case *closed*.

re .33:
    
>    The author deleted the note after reading my reply.
    
In which case there would not be another .30 note as your note was .31
Reply  numbers are not reused after deletion unless it is the last reply to 
the topic that is deleted.

Dave.

    Given the recent success of Digital, I'm sure there's a mountain
    of paperwork on every desk in Personnel.  Given that people often
    go around Personnel directly to the hiring manager, it's not surprising
    that communications break down, and Personnel doesn't know the person
    was hired.  (It's understandable, but it strikes outsiders as colossal
    arrogance; I know that from experience.)
    
    What does surprise and concern me is the number of stories here
    in which Personnel screened out people that hiring managers not
    only were interested in, but actually hired.  *That* is a serious
    problem.

               <<< HUMAN::WRKD$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< The DEC way of working >-
================================================================================
Note XXX                        OK.....Enough!                        No replies
CHUCKL::LMARTIN                                      21 lines   7-NOV-1987 14:49
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          <It's easy to throw stones from a safe distance>
    
    Who answering this topic has ever BEEN a recruiter in an employment
    department in industry??
    
    I will give you my point of reference: I am currently a new 
    recruiter with DEC, having been a contract recruiter for several
    months before going direct.
    
    My question is whether the energy/anger is over misunderstanding
    the system or having very different expectations over WHAT should
    happen and WHEN.
    
    After three other computer companies and similar volume hiring,
    I feel that DEC does respond to applicants.  Sending a resume does
    not constitute a guarantee that you will get a job the first (or
    the tenth) time you apply.
    
    Have any of you really sat down with your recruiter and talked (isn't
    that the Digital way) or it is just more fun this way??
    

>    Who answering this topic has ever BEEN a recruiter in an employment
>    department in industry??

  Reply .30 was from someone claiming to be a 10-year veteran of 
recruiting with Digital. Although the note has since been deleted (by 
the author, I understand) you can get a sense of its contents from 
reading .31, which replied to .30.
    
>    My question is whether the energy/anger is over misunderstanding
>    the system or having very different expectations over WHAT should
>    happen and WHEN.

  Well, that may be true in some cases, but it certainly isn't in all 
(or even most) of the cases related here.
    
>    After three other computer companies and similar volume hiring,
>    I feel that DEC does respond to applicants.  Sending a resume does
>    not constitute a guarantee that you will get a job the first (or
>    the tenth) time you apply.

  I think everybody understands that. What many of the replies have 
related is that recruiters representing Digital (permanent or contract)
don't even let you know that you CAN'T have a job at Digital (you know, 
the Don't Call Us, We'll Call You letter).
    
>    Have any of you really sat down with your recruiter and talked (isn't
>    that the Digital way) or it is just more fun this way??

  I have talked to a recruiter. I was trying to get transferred from 
Digital Canada to Digital in the U.S. I went through channels like a 
good do-bee and talked to a recruiter. Virtually every bad thing that 
has been related here happened to me too, so I won't bore anyone with 
relating it.

  In all modesty, I wasn't that hard to place. I'd won two SWS
Excellence Awards in Canada, (and have since won another here)
and I was looking for a position in SWS. I didn't try to skip 
up a job level or anything. I didn't require Digital to buy my house,
just pay for the movers for the relocation. I'm a U.S. citizen, so there
weren't any visa hassles. And no headhunter fees to pay either.

  After three months of being jerked around, I gave up. Finally, to get
to the U.S., I had to leave Digital and go to work for another company 
By the way, this is a high-tech industry company too, and their
personnel department made me an offer one week after the interview. 

  Luckily for me, the District Personnel Manager (in Canada) marked on
my exit interview paperwork "Consider for rehire", as he understood that
it wasn't that I wanted to leave Digital, just Canada. He also
understood that it was his organization (in the U.S.) that dropped the
ball. 

  When I "re-upped", I avoided the personnel department like the plague. 
From the moment that I let one hiring manager (not even the one who 
finally hired me) know that I was interested in returning until my
(re-)start date was set about two weeks. 
    
  I attribute this speedy turnaround to the fact that Personnel was not 
involved.

  Moral : Please do refer your friends, collegues and relatives to
	  a hiring manager if you think that they are the kind of
	  quality people that are typical of Digital. Refer your enemies 
	  to Personnel.
  
  - Larry

    It may be the system, it may be the people, but whatever it is,
    it has problems.
    
    Having reached the point in my last position that I wanted OUT,
    I started to leave DEC. I had some good friends contact me and say
    "It's the situation, not the company. Try a transfer." So, I gave
    it a shot.
    
    Going through 'channels' was very frustrating. I got the names and
    numbers of recruiters in the areas of interest and started contacting
    them. The Pesonnel person at my current location stated fairly simply
    that they would not relocate me and basicaly would not talk to me.
    Being in Software as a Specialist III, I couldn't find out what
    jobs in other departments I would be elgible for. (E10=D43, that's
    interesting)
    
    I was ready to throw in the towel again and stubled across JOBS.
    I found a request from my current UM describing my background to
    a T. I sent the resume, got called, interviewed and was made an
    offer. My situation here is so much better than the one I left.
    I'm glad I stuck it through, but DEC really does need to rework
    the hiring/transfer side of things.
    
    Jim
    
    PS - I also got a 'No Thanks' letter from Personnel 4 days after
    I'd started working for DEC. My UM chuckled and told me to toss
    it.
    

    When I decided to leave my last position because I was basically
    unhappy it wasn't easy.  Personnel took my resume and said they
    would circulate it. I didn't even get an interview.  I started looking
    for alternatives as to how I could find out hiring managers names.
     There is a system calles TESS which gives you the entire requisiton
    including the hiring managers name and the status whether it be
    interview or pending or whatever.  It made it alot easier to send
    a copy of my resume to both the hiring manager and the personnel
    recruiter.  I found out that it is alot easier to avoid personnel
    unfortunately they were not helpful to me.
    
    On a side note: Personnel had me come down one afternoon from MLO
    to MRO(?) to tell me the position was already filled.  This could
    have been done by phone or over the net.  I was so mad, they don't
    understand that as a wage Class 2 you have to make up that time
    or use sick/vacation time to get away from your job.
    
    
    
                               Debbi

    RE: Expectations. I'm ready to give my story now. The lines about
    expectations got me going.
    
    I have one good story first. I sent a resume up to MKO a few years
    ago. Personnel saw the word 'RSTS' on it and took it to the RSTS
    development group right away. I got a great job that way. Good things
    do happen some times.
    
    Now for expectations not lived up to. Feel free to let me know if
    any of these where unreasonable.
    
    I expect recruiters to tell me the truth. If they are unsure, they
    should find out. When I was offered a job at DEC 5+ years ago I
    asked if my previous service (almost 2 years that I'd worked for
    DEC before) would count for anything. Yes, I was told, they'll
    count towards pension. This is/was not true as every personnel
    person I've talked to since has told me. Someone is lying. Should
    I expect that?
    
    I expect personnel to forward resumes on behalf of employees who
    are looking for a new job. This is especially true when said
    employee gives personnel a resume and a list of jobs that he is
    interested in (including req. numbers).
    
    The first time I was with DEC I explained to personnel that I
    wanted to move to New England. I gave them a number of open jobs
    that I was interested in. I got the jobs from a JOBS book that 
    someone in the Mill got for me. It seems that the tiny NYC (only
    slightly more business then Canada) office didn't get copies of
    the JOBS book. A week or two latter I called personnel and explained
    that I was going to be in New Hampshire on vacation and that I'd
    really appreciate it if they could get me some interviews. Nothing.
    I called again from NH. Nothing. Finally after a number of months
    of nothing I gave in to a headhunter and went on an outside interview
    (another computer company). After I gave my notice personnel sent
    me a memo saying that they had mailed my resume to NH. Should I
    have expected it to take three months to mail a resume interoffice
    mail?
    
    I expect that someone (especially from the outside) who talks to
    a recruiter will get some kind of a response. Even a rejection
    letter. I'm still waiting for my wife to get a response from any
    of the several times she's contacted DEC. BTW, it's too late to
    ever expect her to come to work for DEC. Personnel attitudes and
    mistreatment have guaranteed that.
    
    One thing I'd like to see is Maynard personnel passing some of the
    huge amount of resumes it must get around to field offices. When
    I was first out of college I sent DEC a resume in Maynard. I got
    a nice "we don't have anything for you" letter. Fine but years later
    a district SWS manager told me that if Maynard had send him (my
    local to where I lived SWS office) that resume I would at least
    have gotten an interview. Maynard never sent them resumes though.
    Perhaps that's not a reasonable expectation?
    
    I expect personnel to hand offer letters in a timely basis. On the
    other hand, the two times I've changed jobs with in DEC I received
    my offer letter the week *after* I started. And I gave the old groups
    2-5 weeks before joining the new group.
    
    I got my latest job in spite of personnel. I knew the hiring manager
    and we worked out an interview and verbal offer in less then half
    a week after I approached him. He finally had to hand carry some
    of the paper work for signatures because it kept getting stuck
    and 'lost' in personnel. Took weeks.
    
    			Alfred
    

< Note 410.39 by FIDDLE::LAVOIE >

>    have been done by phone or over the net.  I was so mad, they don't
>    understand that as a wage Class 2 you have to make up that time
>    or use sick/vacation time to get away from your job.
    
  That's strange, when I was WC 2 in 1978-80 I went on several interviews on
company time. I thought this was a corporate policy. No matter who pays for
the time and travel, it doesn't make sense to be interviewed for a job that
doesn't exist, except that you know your way around that plant in case another
job comes up.

    re .39 There is a system called TESS which gives you the entire
    requisition ..
    
    How does one access TESS?
    
    Thanks,
    -Weimin Tchen

    Is there enough interest to sustain a "PERSONNEL" or
    "HIRING-AND-FIRING" VAX Notes Conference?  I offer the suggestion
    and not the disk space to host it.
    
    Not your moderator

    [Re: .40]:  Previously, I offered an observation that these stories
    suggested a serious problem with personnel.  Now I see a second
    problem.  Offers that take several weeks to go out?  What if the
    applicant is actually interviewing at several companies?  What if
    the applicant is faced with the choice of a job offer from X, Inc.,
    and *maybe* a job offer from Digital?  A bird in the hand is worth
    two in the bush.  If I were a manager, and lost a prospect because
    personnel took several weeks to get an offer out, I'd scream from
    here to Maynard.

    RE: .45
    
    	Ok Michael, so you've blasted almost everyone who wrote in
    	this topic. Fine. I don't see too much constructive suggestions
    	from you.. You could have saved us the 400 lines of complaining
    	and followed your own advice.
    
    	I suspect the reason that none have jumped up and down with
    	excitement to go "change the way digital personnel does things"
    	is that we all have REAL jobs to account for and it's not
    	my job as a system manager to get involved in changing personnel.
    	Surely in a company THIS big SOMEONE should actually own and
    	be reviewed on this responsiblity. (Of course, I'll be glad
    	to offer my suggestions)
    
    	We as the digital noting community and employees don't own that
    	responsibilty.  We CAN and HAVE demonstrated that something
    	is in fact wrong with the system.  The "he who proposes, disposes"
    	rule doesn't apply here cuz there should already be someone
    	who owns this. (Now if there ISN'T then that is an unfortunate
    	circumstance of poor planning by someone)
    
    	Bottom line Michael, Get off our backs.  With the message coming
    	from Corporate about possibly having to make due with what
    	we got, we all have enough real work to do.
    
    
    	Noting on my own time,
    
    							mike

    Re. :.45 Couldn't have said it better.
    
    Re.: .46 suggest you read note #1. Looks like if someone doesn't
         like the flaming, they should pack up their crumpetts and have
         tea somewhere else. Liked your narrow attitude :-)
    
    Re.: in general
         My response, .30, was heated, I took alot of the flames too
         personally, but thats my issue. I felt that most folks repling
         didn't have a fair grasp of what a day-in-the-life of a
         DEcrecruiter is really like, anymore than what I know about
         overworked system managers, engineers or other DECprofessionals.
         But I feel good about what I do and how I'm doing it. BTW I
         also didn't recognize any names so no reason for me to take
         any of the flaming seriously. Any of you folks interested in
         some real answers, just call me.
    
    Re.: .31 was dissapointed you didn't respond to my net, it wasn't
         easy to put that all together.
    
    
    Bill.

          I have a set of experiences with Digital's recruiters which to
     some degree shows the magnitude of the discrepancy between common
     expectations on the recruitment function and common delivery of the
     recruitment function:

          Once upon a time, as I was about to be granted my degree and go
     out into the wide world, I contacted some friends at Digital, and
     received some advice:  send a resume the recruitment office at each
     facility I was interested in, as the recruitment offices did not share
     resumes with one another.  So I sent off 25 copies of my resume to
     various Digital recruitment offices.

          From that set of 25 resumes, I got two responses.  One, after
     four months, was a statement that Digital Equipment Corporation had no
     openings that I would match.  The other, after five months, was an
     invitation for an interview.  I interviewed;  after an additional two
     months, I received a rejection letter.  No matter, I was employed by
     that time at another company.

          I was later hired into Digital by a manager who contacted me
     based on the personal recommendation of one of my friends working for
     him.

          I have transferred within Digital several times, for a variety of
     reasons.  The first time, I sent my resume to over 20 recruiters, and
     got no response, and my local personnel office gave me lists of
     openings that were six months out of date and all already filled;  I
     finally started cold canvassing managers, and found a job.  The next
     time, I canvassed managers in parallel with sending my resume to
     recruiters, and never noticed that not one of the two dozen or so
     recruiters ever responded.  The third time, I convinced a manager to
     create a position into which he hired me.  The most recent time, I
     sent resumes to fifteen recruiters (with the requisition numbers I was
     interested in), and got two responses:  one of these resulted in my
     current position.

          Out of five job offers, exactly one came with the assistance of
     recruiters.  Out of over sixty resumes sent to recruiters, I received
     responses to four.  I have exactly once received an offer letter
     before I started a job;  I once received the offer letter six months
     after I started a job.

          I've worked with recruiters as a hiring manager, too.  The one
     recruiter I worked with as a hiring manager was very competent and
     pleasant.  She also happens to be one of the four who responded to a
     resume I sent out.

          I have several times been on interview teams for groups where the
     consensus is "make an immediate offer," and the recruiter is told
     before the candidate leaves the building to extend an offer -- and the
     hiring manager receives a phone call from the candidate six weeks
     after the interview, saying that he or she really wanted to work for
     Digital and really wanted the position for which he or she had
     interviewed, but there were other offers that were expiring and he or
     she couldn't wait any longer to hear from Digital, sorry.

          I have personally witnessed a recruiter throw out a foot and a
     half stack of unread resumes because he didn't have time to deal with
     them.

          Now, neither I nor anyone else not in recruitment can say that
     the incidents described in the various notes and replies to this
     topic, including this one, are evidence of a problem.  I can conclude
     from personal observation and from reading these notes and replies
     that the recruitment process is not as smooth as I would like, but
     that does not mean that there is a problem:  there are a number of
     things about the world that are not as I wish, but that are still not
     problems.  So, unlike .46, I will not even state that the various
     incidents show that there is a problem.

          But even if the existence of a problem is posited, the identity
     of the problem would not be apparent to somone not working with the
     system daily, the recruiters themselves.  Supposing that a "problem"
     exists, I can guess wildly as to what it might be:  EEO investigating
     and reporting, which I am told takes more time that I could possibly
     imagine;  number of openings per recruiter;  number of applications
     per opening;  internal politics;  hiring managers with hidden agendas;
     and so forth.  The possibilities are endless.  But these guesses are
     worthless;  I do not know enough about the processes involved to have
     even a chance of correctly identifying "the problem."

          It may be that the recruiters consider the various incidents
     described in this topic to be evidence of a problem, and are in fact
     fully aware of the identity of a single underlying problem or a set of
     problems.  Awareness of a problem does not imply the power to address
     the problem.  But *if* the various incidents are evidence of a
     problem, then perhaps collecting scattered complaints in a notes
     conference is exactly what is needed to make those with power to
     address the problem aware of the need to address problem.

          On the other hand, since the attitude of the only recruiter to
     address this topic seems to be "everything is just ducky," then I
     suppose everything is just ducky, and this is the way it's supposed to
     be.

				  Brian Hetrick

    Brian,
    Your example of a recruiter who was asked to get an offer right
    out right away is bizzar, think about it. Manager makes request
    and doesn't follow up??? Isn't curious about why no start date or
    copy of offer letter??? I'm not saying the recruiter isn't at fault
    but the manager needs to shoulder some fault as well.
    
    Re. things being "ducky". I didn't say that! I said I was satisfied
    with MY efforts, given my last review I have strong reason to believe
    that my customers are too.
    
    Bill.

     Bill,

          Several times I haven't tracked what happened, so I can't say
     whether the manager in those cases followed up or not.  But in one
     case, I was extremely enthusiastic about a candiate -- and bugged the
     hiring manager so much that he let me watch each Monday morning as he
     called the recruiter to learn the previous week's reason for not
     sending the offer letter, and then called the recruiter's manager to
     complain that the offer letter had still not been sent.

          It only took three weeks for the candidate to evaporate that
     time.  She was a VERY strong candiate, and got a good job.  Elsewhere.

          I am glad that you are satisfied with your efforts.  As I
     mentioned in my note, there are recruiters I have dealt with who are
     energetic, responsible, competent, and all-around goodnesses:  good
     recruiters can indeed occur.  I am perfectly willing to believe that
     you, personally, are one.

          But I don't perceive that the discussion is about individual
     recruiters, although of necessity all the anecdotes discuss individual
     (although, given the tone of the anecdotes, hopefully not
     identifiable) recruiters.  I perceive that the discussion is about the
     recruitment _function_ within Digital, and the frustration Digital
     employees feel with its current implementation.

          One of the first things I learned when studying organizational
     dynamics is that widespread failures in a function are often caused by
     the structure of the organization performing that function, not the
     people -- almost always, the individual people are doing better than
     anyone understanding the situation could expect, and produce in spite
     of the organizational structure, not because of it.  The same argument
     holds in manufacturing quality control:  most failures are systemic,
     not individual.

          So I don't expect that beating on individual recruiters would be
     any more fruitful than beating on any other individuals placed in
     impossible situations.  What I do expect is that the concatenation of
     a number of anecdotes about isolated failures of the function will
     result in the identification of a common thread indicative of an
     organizational flaw of some sort.

          Now, it may indeed be that there _is_ no organizational flaw.  In
     Digital, I am sure that several thousand job offers happen per day,
     several tens of thousands of resumes are read, and so forth.  One
     would expect some small fraction of these 'recruitment events' to be
     mishandled simply due to random causes.  But several of the replies
     note that a large fraction of these 'recruitment events' are
     mishandled, or at least perceived by non-recruiters as mishandled, to
     the extent that job-hunting employees, hiring managers, and external
     candidates avoid recruiters whenever possible.

          My interpretation of the anecdotes offered so far is that either
     general expectations of the recruitment function are _much_ too high,
     or the recruitment function is being executed _much_ too poorly for
     systemic reasons.  Neither of these can be dealt with by the
     individual recruiter, although he or she can try -- and burn out in
     the process.


				  Brian Hetrick

    Sometimes when we generalize we are making an assumption that all
    people who carry similar job codes are alike.  My experience has
    been very different from yours.  Although the personnel staff does
    vary, just as folks in other professions vary, many are very
    supportive, helpful, and informative.  Perhaps you might contact
    another and have better results.  I know some great recruiters if
    you would like their names. JC

    I was a contract Employment Coordinator supporting a Recruiter for
    three months, so I know (somewhat) of what I speak...The PROCESS
    is this:  Resumes arrive (via interoffice mail, ENET, FAX, and
    sometimes Federal Express) by the 'truckload' daily...The ONLY resumes
    that are EVER 'circular-filed' are AGENCY resumes (but they are
    first scanned for appropriate background lest a 'great' one get
    away).  The rest are counted, dated and separated by category 
    (internal and external).  The recruiter with whom I worked TOOK
    HOME a huge pile of such resumes weekly, as office time was spent
    on the actual interviews, offer letters, coding reqs. and forms
    for the aforementioned TESS personnel database system, reference
    calls (three per every potential hire), fielding agency headhunters,
    ETC.  These resumes would then be given to me the following week
    for proper copying, forwarding, coding and filing.  But before they
    are even given to the recruiter, each internal and non-agency external
    resume is properly acknowledged with a form letter.  (At least OUR
    group was good about this aspect of the process.  However, I too
    have yet to receive acknowledgements from other employment groups
    going back three months.)  
    
    Once the resumes are processed and sent off to the appropriate hiring
    managers, anything can happen.  Sometimes they were good about getting
    back to us with feedback.  Othertimes, zippo.  Other managers would
    bring in 5 - 6 people for a given position with an interview loop
    of 10 people per candidate and take ten years to make up their
    collective mind.  At this point, Employment (which is
    a SUBSET of Personnel) is merely a liaison between manager and
    candidate.  Nothing is done on the part of Employment AT THIS POINT
    until we hear from the MANAGER of the req.  
    
    Oftentimes, due process was butchered.  Managers hiring people outright
    before telling Employment...Managers not knowing which recruiter
    was even responsible for their req....Managers having us set up
    interviews and then telling us never mind, meaning we had to let
    someone's hopes down in the least hurtful, most creative ways ("I'm
    sorry, Mr. Jones, but they just froze the budget for outside hires.")
    Granted, most managers are not TRAINED in personnel matters -- they
    have jobs to do beyond hiring for their group.  Perhaps THIS is
    an area which could be rectified -- TRAINING in regards to RECRUITMENT
    for all involved.  Mutual understanding and communication should
    not be too difficult an attainment in a company on the forefront
    of technology made up of intelligent adults.
    
    MR
     

>    Granted, most managers are not TRAINED in personnel matters -- they
>    have jobs to do beyond hiring for their group.  Perhaps THIS is
>    an area which could be rectified -- TRAINING in regards to RECRUITMENT
>    for all involved.  

	It's happening.  I recently attended a 2-hour "Employment Seminar"
	put on by our local Employment people.  As a relatively new
	manager with several open reqs, I found it VERY enlightening.

Frank

    re: .45
    
    I read your reply and it really bothered me.  Here we have all of
    these people giving concrete examples of a serious problem and you
    scold them for bringing it up?  I can't see how relating these
    difficulties can do other than help improve things.  Identification
    and exposure of a problem is the first step to correcting it.
    
    While I may not personally have any dealings with those responsible for
    sending out acceptance letters, I certainly AM affected if a good
    potential co-worker is not hired, whatever the reason.  I find it
    totally unacceptable if it's due to either incompetence or some kind of
    "Well, that's the way the system works" attitude. 

    What really got me, is when you wrote the following:
    
>    Good for you Neil! You've beaten "the system" and applied creativity
>    in  removing  a  block  in the road. You probably scored  points  with
>    the manager by doing this since it shows you  can  work  situations
>    that,  at  first,  seem  to be an impasse. 
    
    Unless I'm missing something, recruiters aren't supposed to make
    it difficult to get the job as some sort of test.  Most of the writers
    in this note see this as a very unfortunate side-effect, not something
    to laud.
                     
    Your suggestion seems to be that we all work harder to get around
    the present problem without attempting to fix what's wrong.  It's
    the same as saying that if interoffice mail took a month to get from
    PKO to MRO that we shouldn't complain, but should all rent bicycles
    to hand-carry packages between buildings. Although it might really
    show off our dedication to our bosses, it would most definitely
    impact the company's productivity.
    
    In short, I think that this note, above all others in this conference,
    has the best chance of actually getting something changed for the
    better in DEC.
    
    -joe tomkowitz 

Re .43:

This conference provides great value to a great number of people.

This topic is an example of this conference at its best.
I do not regard it as "taking over" this conference - it is just a hot
topic this month.
Nor does it seem a good starting point for a set of new topics unrelated to
the existing themes of this conference.
This topic will probably die down soon, or continue in a more constructive vein.
(I think that will come from people who care working this issue *way* up
Personnel's management chain).

"Personnel" (as seen from the average employee's viewpoint) is a central
theme of this conference.
I think that attempting to factor it out into a separate conference will
sow confusion, not bring enlightnment.

HUMAN::DIGITAL ain't broke.  Let's not "fix" it.
				/AHM/THX

    Solutions, suggestions , ...
    
    I've been part of, watched and heard of many horror stories about
    DEC recruitment.  The phrase "managing your career is your
    responsibility at DEC" comes to mind over and over.  Assisting existing
    employees to get new jobs is considered to NOT be job done by
    Personnel.  Getting new people hired is an organizational recruitment
    task, often administered by contract recruiters.
    
    The problems seemingly listed here are:
    
    	o Canidate management.  Reception, ack, distribution, follow-up
          and final status.
    
    	o Large volumns of paper sent to each organizational site, each
          with select policy, each with territorial rights, little
          information exchange between recruitment offices.
    
        o Duplication and time stamping of agency resumes, classification
          and forwarding.
    
        o Movement of internal job information for internal canidates.
    
    Well.  We are supposed to be a computer company.  Why don't we look
    like one.
    
    As an engineering manager, I get most resumes in photocopy form and
    many internal resumes forwarded.  A great deal of duplication.  Little
    information about other interviews or references is available.
    
    If we did the following over time some reasonable expectations could
    be set.
    
    	Internal canidates submit electronic copies of their resume
    	once, to a central location with desires expressed as to
        organizations, and locations, and job type they would be interested
        in working for.  Restrictions on  whether or not they would
        like to preview targets before the are sent could be included.
    
    	Agencies could be asked to provide electronic medium in a standard
    	format if they wish more timely treatment.
    
    	External canidates should be given the option for sending a
        text copy of their resume on floppy disk.  (IBM format, ASCII)
        a large number of applicants to a computer have access to computers
        themselves.
    
        A central data entry facility for putting in summaries of written
        resumes and a coding mechinism so that an interested manager
    	or personnel rep could request a copy of the full document.
    
    	Automatic acknowledgement and update information for canidates
        both internal and external.
    
    	Data entry for ALL (maybe regional) resumes could handle 
    
        A suspensing system to track progress of ALL resumes, interview
        updates and internal references.
    
    This will of course require a corperate level effort, but it should
    more than compensate each organization for the redundant and
    unpredictiable effort currently being done.
    
    Then we can make it into a product and sell it.
    
    KMc
    
    

re .-1

  I think that we already do sell such a package layered on top of 
ALL-IN-1 (did I get the capitalization right ?).

  Perhaps someone who's familiar with it (I don't even know the 
package's name) would care to comment ...

  - Larry.

  PS : It's just an observation from an obviously un-quality guy (re: 
the n-hundred line reply previously), but it looks like we're on the
trail of a solution here :-} 

    This is an edited version of mail sent to me (in reply to .42) by a
    person in Corporate Equipment Systems who didn't reply in this note due
    to fear of a lynching :-). She will suggest to the employment groups to
    look at this note.
    
******************************************************************************

TESS (TOTAL EMPLOYMENT STAFFING SYSTEM) is used by most recruiters
in Digital. It's a tool which allows recruiters/managers the ability
to share applicant and requisition information as well as provide
reporting for Government and EEO measures.
(Applicant screen captures summary information on Job Codes, Skill codes etc.)

It is only available to Digital Employees by using 'their' JOB RESOURCE CENTER.

Within TESS, There is EMPLOYEE FUNCTION SECTION which allows user to submit
search criteria (Job Code/Site Code) for available jobs/requisitions.
Unfortunately, it is not available without the aide of a recruiter/coordinator
since it requires some assistance. However, once they get you started you're
left alone to search for jobs and/or build your resume on-line.

    re. .48
    
    	Narrow attitude???!!!! Is this a case of the kettle calling
    	the pot black or what?!
    
    	.45 flamed. Go tell him to read note #1.  I have no intention
    	of packing up anything and leaving. This is a problem and I
    	think that we can get the ball rolling right here.. (If we
    	haven't already)
    
    	Please stop taking things so personally.. We're not angry at
    	Bill Blake. We ARE angry at the system that we percieve to be
    	not working as best as it could.
    
    								mike

    Re. 57 What, then, DOES Personnel do ? I mean, besides reorganize?

    re .61
    
    I think the topic of this note is directed at the recruitment process,
    and what "may" be wrong with that process.  Let's not digress into
    what Personnel as an entire organization does.  But on that note,
    I've gained a new appreciation for what Personnel really does do,
    since my better half works there now.  How many of you are aware
    that you can attend BU course via video conferencing in ZKO, LJO,
    and other places?  Or attend workshops on various topics for PERSONAL
    CAREER DEVELOPMENT, such as how to interview, how to write resumes,
    even how to do effective presentations?  One of their biggest problems
    seems to be the fact that they are very ineffective at MARKETING.
    I've been with Digital almost 7 years and only recently found out
    about such things.  And they don't have a plan of action in place
    to advertise the scope of available things.  It's a good thing we
    don't sell computers that way.
    
    Well, now that I've suggested that we don't digress, and just finished
    doing just that, on with the discussion.
    
    Jon

    re .62
    
>   even how to do effective presentations?  One of their biggest problems
>   seems to be the fact that they are very ineffective at MARKETING.
|
>   to advertise the scope of available things.  It's a good thing we
>   don't sell computers that way.

    Should there be a smiley-face here?

    On the subject, it's true that Personnel provides a number of benefits
    that are not widely advertised, probably because a lot of these
    extra-curricular programs are driven on a local basis, by a staffer
    who has initiative and *cares* about doing a quality job.  Having
    worked out of three different field offices, I can attest to the
    fact that these programs vary between excellent and non-existant
    depending on the local Personnel staff.  This situation makes it
    difficult to determine what *your* office has available.
    
    Geoff
    

    Since this topic is about recruiting, I have changed the topic's
    title to be "Recruiting at Digital" rather than the original 
    "Am I the only one?..." This will make it easier for people to find
    the topic.
    
    					/the moderator

    	I feel that except in large facilities DEC does a poor job
    of recruiting or even informing people both inside and outside of
    DEC about current openings. I can get the jobs book (which is scheduled
    to stop publication in dec.87) or look in the vtx jobs book and
    find openings thousands of miles away but to find jobs in local
    office is difficult. 
    	It would seem to me that if all job oppenings were listed in
    a jobs book (either online or on paper) complete with a discription
    of the position, skills needed, job level, physical location, %
    of travel required and availability of relocation funds the job
    of recruiter would be easier. If people new more about job openings
    they could only send resumes in responce to postings that they were
    qualified for and interested in. They might even stop going around
    personel to find a new position.
    Jeff Filer

    	The online jobs information reached by VTX contains only jobs
    in the greater Mass/NH area.  I have been told that when the jobs
    book ends in Dec., all jobs will be able to be found in this VTX
    version.  It will probably be the responsibility of local personnel
    departments to put entries into this so only time will tell if it
    will be useful as a source of available positions.

    May I make a "small fish, big sea" comment? After reading the overwhelmingly
negative comments in this note I wanted my small say. I am in Employment,
    I support the recruiter for VRO & CFO (Concord). It is my
    responsibility to acknowledge receipt of resumes. It would be my
    preference to call each internal candidate, but alas this would
    be impossible. Therefore I send achnowledgement letters out to both
    internal & external applicants. I generate these weekly. Their not
    bad for form letters, I've even received a thank you from an applicant,
    happy to know that there was someone out here in Employment land.
    Calls to our office are answered ASAP. We do value our customers,
    you the job seekers.  
    I'm sure there are other small fish out there also trying to make
    a difference. 
    PS. It took me 6 months to move from the Temp world into the regular
    world. Glad to be here.
    

    Well, I just read through 60+ notes and learned there are countless
    situations the same as the one I'm in now.
    
    I want very badly to get an interveiw for a job opening in AKO.
    After three weeks of calling the recruiter every other day (she
    was never available) I finally reached her to find that the req's
    are, of course, frozen.  
    
    How do you find out who the hiring manager is?  My present job (or
    lack of) leaves me with more time to kill than you can imagine.
    If someone could just talk to me, I think they'd see I can be put
    to a lot better use. But how do I find out who they are?  
    
    Any suggestions welcome....DECXPS::CJACQUES
    
    I have, by the way, sent my resume, but have no idea if it got beyond
    the recruiter.
    

    Re.: .68
    
    >How do I find out who the hiring manager is?
    
    You could start out by ASKING. Either the recruiter or his/her
    coordinator could/should/will give you this information.
    
    Re.: All Job Seekers
    
    Is your resume in order??? 90+% of the ones I see tell me what you
    did/do, where you did/do it and when you did/do it, but have little
    bearing on what you WANT to do. Consider that the resume is a proposal,
    a professional communication, if you will. It should have a clear
    focus. It has been my experience that most people in this corporation
    change jobs to do something different, related yes, but different
    none-the-less. It has also been my experience that a large % of
    these people have the requisite experience to do this, but express
    it so poorly that interviews never happen. What follows is an example
    of what I feel is good format:
    
    
                                                    Name
                                                    Home Adress
                                                    Home Phone number
                                                    DTN
                                                    Mail Stop
                                                    Vax mail account
    Obective:   (a one liner which is to the point)
    
    Education:   (highest achieved first) this information can also
                 be located last.
                 XZY University. Any Town, USA
                 BS       Electrical Engineering  19XX
                 GPA     X.XX/y.yy
    
    Summary: (this paragraph is your "marketing" paragraph, it should
             run 5-8 lines, should be packed with action statements
             like, Have done..... Strong Working knowledge of.... 
             Expertise in...... This paragraph should "speak" directly
             to the objective, if it doesn't bear on the objective you
             don't write it)
    
    Experience:   Digital Equipment Co.               19XX to Present
                  Aspiring Professional (title optional)
             
             This set of paragraphs is where you detail the experience
             you have/had which you feel qualifies you to be interviewed
             for the job you're bidding (the one in the objective).
             Set your thinking in the "25 words or less" mentality,
             make every word count, make every sentence/phrase mean
             something tword the objective. If it doesn't bear on the
             objective than don't expect the reader to want to wade
             through it.
    
    Interests: (Use this device to fill the page if you need it, it's
                totally optional. If you decide/choose to use this consider
                carefully what you list, you can kill a good thing by
                being too extream)
    
    
    In general you're "selling" the experience which is 0-5 years old,
    anything beyond that is usually considered to be unmarketable. Keep
    the resume to ONE page. If you haven't tweeked interest in one page
    the ball game is over. Don't forget, the mission of the resume is
    to get you an interview, not an offer, we don't hire resumes. Use
    the power of illusion, you can also use "qualifiers" like exposed
    to.... fimilar with.... working knowledge of..... The job offer,
    if and when it comes, will be based primarily on potential and
    chemistry, not to suggest that you don't need pertinent skills.
    
    The average job seeker will spend bewteen 1-5 months on the trail
    of a new position, it's not easy. The only endeavors in life that
    people do less often are 1) deciding wether or not to seek a spouse
    2)deciding wether or not to go for a mortage 3) deciding wether
    or not to procreate the species. You spend 1/3 of your life
    deciding/living with the above, 1/3 of your life sleeping and 1/3
    of your life working, makes sense to do all with as much class as
    possible. Your new job starts with the resume, do it with class.
    
    
    Bill.
      
    

    I've always thought that a few widely-geographically dispersed
    references from folks in Senior Sales/Manufacturing or whatever
    discipline *and/or* management functions helps on the ol' resume...
    
    Gil
    
    (Who just started a NEW JOB !!!  Yeah Yeah!!)
    
    Luck comes in handy too.....
    

    Hey all
    
    I went to some effort to get a constructive dialog going to mend
    some of the problems you claim exist with the employment function.
    I started with the resume because thats where most problems seem
    to start. I'm willing to field your questions/concerns in order
    to make DEC a better place to work/change jobs in, maybe get your
    referals hired in. Some of you were sure ready/justified to complain,
    but nothing is going to change unless we work at it.
    
    I have a head-count cap going which gives me a limited amount of
    "spare" time. I'm going to use most of it to strategize with my
    customers on how we can effect a more timely/cost effective hiring
    program, but I'm going to log in to this conference as often as
    I can and do the best I can to turn things around. I invite all
    DECrecruiters, who read this, to chime in as you feel appropriate.
    Changing jobs is not magic, its hard work!
    
    
    Bill.

    The following memo was sent to all the managers and supervisors
    in Southern New Hampshire yesterday.  It is from the So. New Hampshire
    employment manager.
    
    Having evaluated customer feedback regarding the handling of employee
    referrals and our desire to provide excellent employment service,
    the Southern New Hampshire Employment Group has adopted the following
    employee referral process effective immediately.
    
    Whenever a recruiter receives an employment referral (a resume or
    employment application which an employee is activetly recommending
    for employment consideration), he/she will respond to the employee
    making the referral by phone to:
    
    a.  acknowledge receipt of the resume/application
    
    b.  discuss the candidate's qualifications versus current and/or
        anticipated openings
    
    c.  discuss the course of action to be followed
    
    d.  discuss (if appropriate) other employment opportunities outside
        of Southern New Hampshire
    e.  answer any questions
    
    Additionally, an acknowledgement letter will be sent to the applicant
    unless the employee specifically requests that one not be sent.
    
    We belive that this referral procedure will result in employees
    being better informed about the status of their referrals.  We also
    encourage you and your staffs to continue referring quality canidates.
    This is a great help to us in our efforts to meet our workforce
    needs.
    
    

    RE: last two replies
    
    Sounds like people *are* listening and trying to help. I couldn't
    be more pleased. Thanks.
    
    			Alfred

re .69
	As a hiring manager, I agree 100%.  I see a lot of 
	resumes and the poor ones get barely a glance.

>	Keep the resume to ONE page. If you haven't tweeked interest 
>	in one page the ball game is over. Don't forget, the mission 
>	of the resume is to get you an interview, not an offer, we don't 
>	hire resumes. 

	This is true; if I don't see what I'm looking for on the first
	page, I often don't look at the subsequent page(s).  Unfortunately,
	I may have skipped over some good people that way.

	Keywords are important in resumes, too.  Most of the recruiters
	I've worked with are not particularly technical, so I have often
	given them keywords (eg. MACRO, Rdb) to look for on resumes.

re .72
	It sounds like the Southern NH Employment Group has a good idea;
	perhaps this should be instituted company-wide.

Frank_who_has_war_stories_from_both_sides_of_this_fence

    I agree with Frank in .74 that the resume advice in .69 is dead
    on. Thanks, Bill, for sharing it with us. I've filed a hard copy
    away and intend to share with others seeking resume advice.

re: .71

Suggestions:

	When I was hired at DEC I was also interviewing at DG.

	I got three offers, 1 from DG and 2 from DEC.

	At the same time I got two refusuals, 1 each from DEC
	and DG personel departments.

	From what I hear this kind of thing continues today.
	It strikes me as embarassing and insulting.

1.	Fix it -- it must be just an administrative thing, but
	the practice occurs in many companies.


---------------


	I've also noticed that refusal letters from Personnel
	often take the form, "there are no positions at Digital
	that match your profile, but we will place your resume
	on file."

	Problems: I often tell candidates to not believe this
	letter, and to read it instead as saying:

		"A particular site or recruitor was unable
		to establish a match".  Digital may have many
		openings for you.

		"You're resume will indeed be placed on file,
		but nothing will probably come of it."  Resubmit
		your resume every 3-6 months.

	(I don't mean to offend recruiting here, but these opinions
	are based on my repeated personal experiences.)

		And, if at all possible, try and find an inside
		person at the company and work directly with them
		and hiring managers;  managers are better prepared
		to screen resumes against particular jobs (even if
		they hate the task) and an inside recommendation
		is worth tons of bonus points.

2.	Reword the refusual letter to be more accurate, polite,
	and suggestively helpful.  Every interviewee is also a
	potential customer and a human;  the letter should be
	very respectful and humble.   Candidates are hirable
	until proven otherwise.  The letter should basically:

		Thank the person for coming in ...

		Express our regrets at being unable to locate
		  a position at this time ...

		Encourage them to try again later, or at other sites

		Don't make corporate-wide claims about job openings
	  	  that may be untrue.


-----------------------


3.	Use more technology and automation.  Try and get resumes and
	interview forms on-line.  Consider OCR scanners.  Use MAIL and
	notes conferences more.

	Provide an external dial-up;  let candidates submit resumes
	electronically.  Within limits, let them scan open jobs.

	Invite external agencies to submit electronically.  This
	is 1987.

	[I suspect personel is steeped in confidentiality practices
	and so this may seem heretical.  However, I'm sure there is
	a good deal of information that _could_ be exchanged safely
	via networks and a little good judgement and guidelines can
	make it work.]

	Many of our applicants have PCs and Modems at home;  let's
	take advantage of DECs high-tech networking and computer
	automation.


----------------------------


4.	Exploratory interviews.

	Many candidate's resumes are written with an assumed job
	in mind, and/or fail to highlight a person's skills.

	Identify some especially talented interviewers, and when
	there is no immediate match, consider bringing the person
	in for an exploratory interview.  When we spot really good
	people let's "make" positions for them.  I'd rather hire
	one really good person into a slightly awkward job description
	than three "meets req.s" into good matches.

	The interviewer described above should have real management
	skills and experience.  Not just the personel variety which
	is oriented toward job habits, work experience, etc., as
	opposed to looking for raw skills, potential, etc.

	(at least it seems that way ...)


----------------------


5.	Follow-ups.

	When an offer letter goes out (internal or external), the
	person should be personally called a few days later.  This
	can often make the difference to a person with two or more
	offers.  I'm at DEC because of such a call.  I know many
	similar stories from associates and friends.

	Refusuals should also be followed-up in those cases where
	review comments were positive but job match failed.  Call
	these folks 6 months later and ask them how they are doing.
	They will appreciate this even if no job results.

	We are building relationships with people here for the future,
	and we are building Digital as a people oriented company.


----------------------------


6.	Internal only:  it is sometimes true that an internal
	transfer does not command the same title and/or salary
	that the same person would acquire if coming in from
	the outside because of inertia in the promotion system.

	This is a widely known situation.  During the 70's in
	particular, external recruitors inspired a good deal
	of job hopping because of salary gaps.

	We need something inside of DEC that spots these cases
	and instigates/INITIATES an adjustment process during
	the interviewing process.

	When a recruitor sees a person applying for positions
	above their rating (and/or salary) some review process
	should be triggered.  Ask the question, "if this person
	and their resume came in from the outside would they
	be treated differently?"  When the answer is "yes",
	help the employee.  Don't expect that they completely
	know how to work the system.  Some do, others don't.


I hope these suggestions are helpful.  They are not a flame, though
I do feel emotional about recruiting practices and feel they can
be immensely improved.

I'd like to see candidates leave DEC saying, "My, that was the
nicest personal department I've ever dealt with.  They were
extremely helpful, respectful, and polite -- unlike any other
company I've dealt with -- I really want to work for DEC."

Recruiting is our first contact with most employees and first impressions ...

- greg

    re.72  Making the statement is a good start but who pays for the
    staffing to make all the phone calls and follow up work?

     RE: .69
     
     I would like to publicly thank Bill Blake for some very constructive
     input! 
     
     I  would  also  like  to see Bill's comments about  adding  personal
     details  to  a  resume  (such  as:  height, weight, date  of  birth,
     marital status,  health condition, number/ages of children, names of
     personal  references,  social   security  number,  pictures,  etc.).
     Personally, I do not think that any of these items have any place on
     a resume (references should only  be furnished upon request and only
     if  there  is  mutual  interest,  no    point  on  bothering  people
     unnecessarily).
     
     It  also  seems  appropriate  for Bill's hints  and  some  of  these
     comments to be placed in JOBS.NOTE (OASS::JOBS).
     
     Len

    Re: .78
    
    Some kinds of personal data will (or should) be crossed out before
    the resume is circulated - I think married/single is one of those
    things.  I'm pretty sure current salary is also zapped.

    I too would like to thank Bill for his excellent input into this
    discussion.
    
    In my opinion, the first priority should be for personnel reps to
    sit down with hiring managers and understand exectly what the manager
    is looking for.  The goal should be that the rep screens resumes
    exactly the way the manager would, only much faster.  Every instance
    of "dud gets through" and "hot prospect doesn't get interview" should
    be taken as a failure to be eliminated in future.

    
    	We all owe Bill a beer for this one [but not during lunch of
    course]!  The information he's provided was free of charge and would
    normally cost bucks if farmed out to a resume butcher squad...
             
    	Informational interviews are also key to finding out exactly
    what requirements are needed in an area you are interested in.  It
    is fine to do and can help you evaluate your resume to see if you
    even want to send it.  Many people send perfectly fine resumes to
    perfectly MISMATCHED positions and that's not good.  It wastes your
    time and the managers time to bring you in to find out there's a
    mismatch of interests.  When you are being interviewed, you should
    also interview the group for potential and fit.  It takes a while
    to feel comfortable doing this, but it pays of in the long run usually.
    
    

re: 410.78

>     It  also  seems  appropriate  for Bill's hints  and  some  of  these
>     comments to be placed in JOBS.NOTE (OASS::JOBS).

I've already asked for and received Bill's permission to cross-post his 
note to JOBS.  I'm waiting on a reply to mail I've sent to the moderator, 
since the "right" place is write-locked.

Ray

	The note  has  been  posted  in the JOBS conference and it looks
    good.

    Re.: .78 & .79
    
    I would strongly encourage applicants to leave personal data off
    their resumes. It is illegal for an employer to consider such
    information for screening purposes, so why invite discrimination?
    Again, the resume should be clear, concise, to the point. It has
    been my experience that personal data has nothing to do with how
    well a person performs their job. Personal data and/or a picture
    invites or allows the possibility of a "subjective" screen, not
    that that wouldn't weigh in one's favor, but why take the chance?
    A good question, thanks for asking.
    
    Re.: .80
    I can't profess to be speaking for DEC recruiting as a whole, but
    to understand the customer's (hiring manager) needs is as important
    as being able to understand what an applicant can offer. In my own
    case I spent a majority of my first two months in this job meeting
    my customers so I could learn what they needed as well as their
    business plan. It is important for me to have a strategic overview
    of my groups so that my tactics fit a plan. Also, inorder to better
    serve my customers I've signed up to start pre-MS Computer Science
    courses at BU. I have "built" my own uVAX from "spare" parts and
    have it up on the net. I feel that it is very important for
    DECrecruiters to have a good technical grounding of what our H/W
    and S/W are and how they play together.
    
    My advice to any managers out there reading this topic is to make
    your recruiter part of your group,invite them to an ocassional staff,
    discuss how your need for human resources will effect/impact your
    business plan, help make them a "business partner". Most recruiters
    only see the on-again off-again nature of recruiting at DEC, sorta
    like missing the forest for the trees. It can take months to get
    some recruiting momentum, it only takes a few weeks to kill it.
    If you as a hiring manager partner with your recruiter than
    frustrations are minimized.
    
    Strategic recruiting, the real stuff, to my knowledge and in my
    experience, has not yet happened. In an ideal setting all requisitions
    would be in the recruiters hands at the beginning of the fiscal
    year (with the exception of critical replacements). These req's
    would be quarterized and made available to the internal community,
    contingency plans, based on availability data, would be drawn so
    that  employment could line up employee referal, advertising,
    road-tripping and agency sources to effect TIMELY cost effective
    hires. As DEC becomes more "mature" strategic recruiting becomes
    a stronger possibility, rudiments of same surface from time to time
    even now. We have a long way to go, but I feel that we are underway.
    
    
    Bill.

    Wow!!  I made it through all 84 reply messages.
    Now for me.  I am a Human Resourse Manager.  In the past ten months
    I have placed 30 people and I have 23 left to place by June 1988.
     I have dealt with recruiters from Mass. to Cal.  I have learned
    a few things during this time.  Bill, I don't know about your group
    but there were only two recruiters that would give out the hiring
    managers name.  All the others flat out refuse.  The ones that did
    were instructed that they could give the names to anyone from my
    group.  There are some that are over-worked, some that bend over
    backwards, and some that are the most apathetic(sp) people I have
    ever dealt with.  The majority of the ones I've dealt with are in
    the "over-worked" catagory.  These people have to be called a few
    times a week to keep things moving.  There are also contract
    recruiters.  The best, by far, recruiter I've dealt with is a contract.
    When things settle down after the holidays, I'll be sending the
    manager that she reports to a nice long letter.  All the apathetic
    ones I've dealt with were Dec employees.  Remember, I'm not saying
    all the Decs are that way.  The way I see it, I am better off to
    contact the recruiter, send the recruiter the resume, 
    get the managers name, then call the manager and send him the resume. 
    Almost all my placements were done this way.  BTW, I never send
    hardcopy.
         I feel that where I have 23 more people to place and then get
    myself placed, I can not complain about any of the recruiters. 
    I'm afraid that when I call later they'll say to themselves "Oh
    yah, I remember him.  He's the one that complained."
    
    Well, that's it.  I just wanted to add a few cents to the topic. 
    
    Chris D.
    
    p.s. If there are any managers out there that have jobs open in
    the southern N.H. area and Mass. area, we've got the people.
    Just mail me the info and I'll get back to you.(I really will).

    Chris:
    
    Please be careful with blanket statements, "All other recruiters
    flat out refused". You didn't call me! If you feel you mission is
    critical (i'd be inclined to think it is) then I suggest to make
    appointments with the recruiters in question or their managers,
    possibly attend an employment staff meeting to discuss your possible
    "solutions" to their staffing problems.
    
    Contract recruiters are, generally, excellent; they have to be,
    the competition is severe to be one of their numbers. They also
    are paid at or above 2X normal DECrecruiters salary plus overtime.
    I have interviewed and participated in hiring several, I was one
    when I joined DEC initially. I'm not trying to make excuses or defend
    incompetence, it exists. I'd be happy to help you work out some
    tactics, off-line, to aid you in adressing your problems, just call.
    
    
    Bill.
    the

    Is there a way for a recruiter in one organization to find out who
    the recruiters are in other organizations?  In other words, is there
    an 'Internal Guide to Digital Personnel Organizations' as there
    is for Engineering?
    
    Bruce (not a recruiter)

    Bruce,
    
    I have a small book called "Digital Employment Staff Guide" which
    gives me the names, phone #s, and mail stops of all known
    DECrecruiters, it's updated 1/4ly. It is not a general personnel
    guide, but gives only "employment" personnel information. There
    are also "one-liners" next to the names giving a general clue as
    to what these folks look for, mine reads like (will soon read like):
    
    
    H/W, S/W,
    Advanced Engineering Development  William Blake   MLO 3-4/A11 223-6347
    
    
    Bill.

    I certainly have that that experience from recruiters:  "You do
    not meet the requirements for this job since you do not have experience
    in such and such field".  At the present time I am looking for another
    job, and has been very discouraging to me.  
    
    I have met various recruiters looking for help and advise and has
    not been positive at all.  I have been told that I need a "mentor",
    which I don't have, who can help me since I am looking to change
    professional fields.
    
    I really appreciate if you can provide the name of someone in your
    Personnel organization who might be helpful to me, or perhaps, I
    can send you my resume and you can forward it to them.  
    
    Thank you very much!

    RE: .89 Have you tried the JOBS Conference (OASS::JOBS KP7 to add)?
    I'd suggest a base note covering what you want to do with your resume
    in a reply. JOBS is read by a lot of hiring managers and may provide
    leads in a number of directions. Good luck.
    
    		Alfred

    Thank you for your quick response.

    Nothing new here in quite a while, you folks all set???
    
    I was kinda hoping to get a few questions from some of the folks
    that seemed to be having the problems, felt that there was some
    substance to some of the complaints, no??
    
    Bill.

    Hi Bill,
    
    I have a question for you maybe.  It's not a problem (or maybe it
    is), but it does have me wondering.
    
    I went to interview in another state with the hiring manager directly.
    I was contacted by him and was told that the next time I was in
    the area to get in touch with him and he would give me an interview.
    I was also told he couldn't hire at the time (August).
    
    So in August, I contacted him, he gave me an interview, said he
    had my resume', again stated his position about hiring capability,
    and more or less told me to stay in touch to see if that situation
    changed.
    
    About two months later, I heard rumour that positions at that plant,
    specifically, the one I was nterested in, would soon go open req.
    I could never again contact the manager, by phone (not in) or mail
    (never received a reply).  So I sent a resume to the personnel
    recruiter.  She received it, I finally learned after finally landing
    her by phone after two straight weeks of phone dailing.  She said
    yes, she received my resume' and she gave it to the manager who
    would be posting the position.  Who was the manager I asked, and
    it was the same one I interviewed with, so at least he was still
    there.
    
    But he already had my resume' and apparently didn't state this 
    fact to the personnel rep, so it makes me wonder if how we went
    about the whole first interview was kosher.  Should personnel
    have been notified?  What would happen if the personnel rep
    knew about the first interview?  Where do I stand?  The position
    still hasn't been opened, do I just stay in contact with the
    pesonnel rep?
    
    Sherman
    

    Sherman,
    My opinion, about the first "interview" you had, is that the manager
    was more curious than ready to hire. It's sort of a "between the
    lines" interpretation, based on "if you're in the area". What I
    get out of that is that he/she doesn't see many (any) internal
    candidates and thought there might be something. Ultimately he/she
    will have to justify an expensive relocation (I'm assuming your
    located on the east coast), if not to his/her management, at least
    to his/her budget.
    
    There is another part, which galls me, that says : If Sherman is
    a candidate then either hire him or tell, straight out, that you
    can't afford it----- don't leave the candidate hanging!!! If Sherman
    is not a candidate then tell him that and why not! Seems like common
    courtesy is being forgotten.
    
    I would want to hear the managers and recruiters story, but sounds
    like no communication there. I would suggest that you send a registered
    letter to the manager, return reciept requested. Restate your interest,
    and tell him/her that your interested enough to consider the group
    (if you are) and adult enough to understand (reasons) why they may
    choose not to make an offer. If you get a "dear john" with clearly
    stated reasons, then, at least you have the option to enhance your
    background to be a more "attractive" candidate in the future. If
    you play your cards right, in that case, you may find this manager
    seeking you out in the future.
    
    Overall there is nothing wrong with contacting the manager directly;
    after all the recruiter and manager are "partners" both trying to
    achieve the same end. I never fail to remind my managers (partners!)
    that if we both recruite we'll fill the position nearly twice as
    quickly. Right now I'd almost kill for two super-star class logic
    designers to work on Personal Vax.
    
    
    Bill.

    Re: .94
    
    Bill:
    
    Please refrain from advertising what you need and who you'd
    "kill for" in this Notesfile. 
    
    I think I've asked this of you before (see 410.31), and
    I'm sure you've simply "slipped" in an accidental ad.
    
    Have you ever considered a position in Sales?
    
    Steve.

    
    
    
    	Why does it bother you so much?  What Bill is doing can only
    	help DIGITAL.  Why don't you join Corporate?
    
    

    In fact, my feeling is that Bill's comments have been extremely
    helpful and very informative. And I expect that with his drive and
    motivation, some good will come out of all this. Wouldn't mind having
    him as *my* recruiter!
    
    But this note is not a JOBS Mart. Short and simple. End of that
    discussion.
    
    Steve.

    I remember hearing awhile back that it was against company policy
    for a manager to actively recruit someone, i.e. ask someone if they
    would like to work for you when that person did not initiate the contact.
    Any truth to this?

    Bill is looking for people FOR someone else - that's his job. I
    would not say he was "advertising" because of the lack of specifics.
    
    You do not want managers "raiding" other groups, so there is a policy
    discouraging cold calls to recruit someone.  However, it is quite
    easy to ask a likely candidate, "Do you know someone who could do
    <exciting project>?"
    
    	Rick
    	Merrill
    

    Re. .98:
    
    I generally agree with .99. There is, however, a more formal way
    to accomplish the same end without "fear" of causing any hard feelings
    or being in violation of policy:
    
    Simply approach the manager of the employee and ask him/her if they
    would mind you speaking with the "candidate". I have never heard
    of this type of request being turned down.
    
    In the case where you "bump" into a prospective candidate its well
    within policy to discuss your HR needs *informally* (the distinction
    is simply that you don't have other members of your group
    participating, its strictly a 1/1). To totally cover your bases,
    if the employee shows interest, ask the candidate to have
    a chat with his/her current manager, or do as I suggest in the above
    paragraph.
    
    If you have any concerns not covered by the above, consult your
    recruiter or personnel rep.
    
    Bill.

BOY!  That's the last time I try to enter a note here while in this
conference.  That's the 3rd time I've come to the end of the text only
to find out "NETWORK ABORTED LOGICAL LINK."  From now on, I'm creating
the text outside of this conference.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Bill,

I have to agree with you on leaving someone hanging.  I've been trying for
a little over a year now to migrate to California via DEC and have been
hanging just about that long.  BTW, I'm in Colorado.

Leaving the particular destinations anonymous, I have applied to several
locations out there.  This is not meant to pick on the west, it's just
the only experience I have to expound on.  Every resume' I have sent has
taken anywhere from two to six weeks to learn that they even received
the darn thing.  EVERY time I did learn it was received was because "I"
finally landed the personnel rep.

I have left messages (there must have been pages of memo's on the desk
of applicable personnel rep) with the message center, I have left a
home phone number complete with answering machine, I have left three
different DTN extensions, I have sent E-mail both in DECMAIL and VAXMAIL
format.  Still, in every case where I finally learned something, it was
because I was making the effort, not once the other way around, and this
is not exaggeration.

I also know someone in California who managed to snag the personnel
rep once on the phone.  Said person told the rep to call me right then
if she would please, because I was at that moment standing by the phone
at work.  Personnel rep told my contact to have me call her back in
5 minutes because she absolutley had to go to the bathroom.  Guess
what?  It would be another two weeks before I finally nabbed her again.

Granted, a person gets busy.  But if they're THAT busy, how about having
another person get in contact with the desperate job seeker?  Leave a
message with someone, so that it can be relayed.  I work in a customer-
orientated group.  We would fry here, if one person came forth with such
a blatant disregard in communication courtesy.  We have stringent corrective
action for lesser disregards.

Howver, the last thing I will do is try to go above someones head, or
raise hell.  It's hard enough as it is to get out there, and I have
a bad feeling it would worsen should I try to get a little more
common courtesy.  It is the hardest, most frustrating thing in the world
to be the employee who is isolated from they who are making all the
decisions, or who have the keys to the gateway you're trying to access.
I would like to be there, to personally walk into the personnel reps
office for some straight answers when I need them, instead of having to
rely on day-to-day long distance attempts, placing mega-phone calls,
sending endless E-mail messages, and all the while your stomach is
churning inside, because you may have already lost the position to a 
local candidate who has the "homeboy" advantage, thanks to all the
time that is passing.  How am I supposed to know that in all the
time it takes just to get a confirmation on my resume', that they
haven't already found their man/woman?

That is why it is necessary to get a prompt receipt of your resume'.
It helps so much to know it got there, to hear them say whatever
they have to say, i.e., you're in the running, we need to schedule
an interview, or, we've already filled the position, or, you're
qualified but you'll need to get here on your own means, whatever.
Knowing something early on takes away alot of anxiety.

Sherman

    Before you go make a flap; Northern California personnel hired
    a very nice man to help them with their recruiting problems less than
    six months ago.
    
    He died of a heart attack a couple weeks ago.  Needless to say,
    this is not helping the situation.   As yet, there is no replacement
    I know of, and given the current hiring situation, it is less than
    clear it will be fixed anytime soon.

    Just to add my own 2 cents to this topic, I was EXTREMLY frustrated
    by recruiters in the Washington, DC area recently.  We were told
    that there were many openings of all levels in the technical fields
    (not to mention a chronic problem in administrative areas) and that
    we should forward the names of anyone we knew who might be interested.
    I sent the names and resumes of two people, both of whom had at
    least 8 years of experience with DEC hardware and software, and
    both of whom were very interested in working for Digital.  After
    getting the run around for several weeks, I called the managers
    who were doing the hiring, and they assured me that they had never
    heard of these people or seen their resumes.  To make a long story
    short, boot subsequently took positions outside of Digital, one
    as the head of MIS at Washington National Airport, the other as
    a configuration specialist at a large corporation that manages over
    60 some hospitals.  It is evident that both are very qualified and
    capable people, and it is this companies loss that they work elsewhere.

    Re. .103:
    
    >We were told....
    
    Did you send *them* copies of the resumes? In any complex loop,
    if one exists, its better to send more rather than less. I realize
    that this may seem wasteful, but whats an extra stamp or so in such
    a case? In any case where you know who the hiring manager is send
    to both him/her and the recruiter, maybe even a note to the recruiter
    saying something like, "copies of this/these have been sent to manager
    X, to speed the process".
    
    >.... all levels in the technical fields....
    
    From your brief discription of what the candidates ultimately got
    for new jobs sounded like they were management types getting very
    high salaries. I realize that this is speculation on my part, but
    it appears to be within the realm of your note.
    
    > I called the managers, and they hadn't seen the resumes.....
    
    Was it too late at that point or did the managers drop the ball
    as well?
    
    I suggest, if you feel strongly, that you send letters/E-mail into
    that personnel chain of command. I have done some speculating with
    your note, but fully realize that WDC recruiting might be totally
    responsible. If thats the case, then a letter from you might speed
    the "healing" process. If you choose to make no input, you have
    no reason to expect even one iota of change.
    
    As part of DEC's recruiting "machine" I appreciate your efforts,
    and, dispite your experience, encourage you to keep at it.
    
    
    Bill.

>   I suggest, if you feel strongly, that you send letters/E-mail into
>   that personnel chain of command. I have done some speculating with
>   your note, but fully realize that WDC recruiting might be totally
>   responsible. If thats the case, then a letter from you might speed
>   the "healing" process. If you choose to make no input, you have
>   no reason to expect even one iota of change.
    
    Having gone through this in the semi-recent past,
    I got the strong feeling that boat-rocking was not welcomed.
    
    Bill, I think that your concept is a good one, but one that I haven't
    found to be very realistic. Personnel, not unlike some management
    types, do not want to hear the errors of their ways. I'd like to
    be more positive about effecting change, but I seriously wonder
    who is listening.
    
    I can sympathize with the frustration on .-2. My job leads came
    via the grapevine, not the official channels.
    
    Ex-DCer,
    
    Jim
    

    
    	Hi all,
    
    	I had hoped my first note in this file would be more positive,
    but unfortunately, I recently was involved in a situation much like
    the person in 410.101...
    	I am a temporary contractor (lead operator) who has worked with
    DEC products for a few years now, and would dearly love to be a
    permanent employee...As new jobs are being posted all the time on
    the VTX (despite the freeze since October) and also being advertised
    (marketing, finance, and hardware engineering, at least) in the
    Boston area and southern NH papers, I was given to understand that
    a site with critical manpower needs and customer support responsi-
    bilities could get a waiver...
    	I have sent out about 30 resumes and cover letters to DEC sites
    in these areas, with most sites at least acknowledging receipt within
    2-4 weeks.  However, about three weeks ago, I received a phone call
    from a manager at one of the sites to whom my resume had been forwarded
    by a recruiter. I was invited to come in for an interview, which
    I did, driving through a winter storm, and waiting about an hour
    for the manager to arrive.  We had a nice talk and a tour of the
    facility, and several days later I was invited back for a second
    interview with the employee currently holding the job in which I
    was interested (Wage Class 4, about 2 levels "above" my current
    position).  We also had nice, hour-long talk, and I was told that
    the manager would contact me very soon, as the position was critical
    and people were running around there doing three or four different
    jobs apiece.
    	Nine days later, I called and was told the manager was tied
    up in a meeting until lunch. I left my name and number, and tried
    again in midafternoon, only to be told that the manager was now
    gone until the following week (four more days).  On that day, I
    again had to call, and was then told the manager was out sick. I
    asked if anyone was available that could advise me as to my current
    status in regard to the open position, and was told by the party
    answering the phone that the manager "...can't hire me because of
    the freeze..."  At no time during our phone conversations, or during
    the interviews, was the hiring freeze discussed, until that last
    conversation.
    	Now, everyone in the world knows that DEC has a hiring freeze,
    so why post openings in the VTX network and bring people in for
    multiple interviews at sites where manpower needs are supposedly
    critical if they can't be hired?  It has now been three weeks, about
    six phone calls on my part, and two VAXmail messages, and I still
    have received no word or even courtesy acknowledgement from this
    particular site.  In addition, I've heard similar tales of woe from
    other employees, temporary and permanent, in this area...
    	DEC is going to have difficulty attracting qualified personnel
    if this is a typical example of recruitment practices and common
    courtesy.  I guess I just don't understand why our job searches
    have to be so aggravating at a company that is supposed to be in
    the top ten of companies to work for in America.
    	Thanks for the opportunity to sound off...
    
    						Disappointed Dave

    Re .107
    You are right when you say the hiring manager should have told you
    about the freeze and how it affected his group. 
    
    The reason jobs are posted and interview's conducted during a freeze
    is so that as soon as the freeze lifts hiring managers can make
    offers immediately.

    Re: .017 &.108:
    
    I've just started to become involved in the interviewing process and
    have some misgivings about our recruiting motives.  In discussing the
    situation here I find a motivation much like that described in .108.
    Hiring managers seems to regard interviewees like "money in the bank";
    when the freeze opens a crack, they can quicky draw on their interview
    "accounts."  Also, there is the "hot prospect" perspective -- maybe
    this is the one-guy-who's-so-good-we-can-get-a-waiver. 
    
    My concern is this: Are we leveling with the interviewees, or stringing
    them along?  Do they understand the conditions as the hiring manager
    knows them to be, or are they naively expecting this is a straight
    forward hiring interview, with a real job up for grabs?

    Re. .107, .108, .109
    
    The *reason* that things are so mixed up is that a "freeze" isn't
    really always a freeze. Managers tend to think that their projects
    are all "critical" path in nature and that if they find the "right"
    candidate they will be able to hire. Roumers don't help matters,
    by the time news of a hire up at ZKO gets down to MLO it appears
    that the ZKO facility is on a hiring binge. Managers run off half
    cocked, crank up the interviewing process, set expectations and
    then top it off by being rude (mostly I believe that they are too
    embarassed to speak directly with the candidate). 
    
    During these "times" I tell the candidate, up front, before interview
    what our situation is and let them decide. When an external hire
    is indicated I make sure we have all the authority before I start
    sourcing, that way we move smoothly through the hiring process.
    
    The "bank-the-applicant" trip rarely works out. If a candidate is
    strong enough to be able to get a DEC offer there are plenty of
    other corporations that will/do think so also. Candidates, who are
    career minded rarely put all their "eggs" in one basket, hence DEC
    looses, but does gain plenty of wasted time. Interview time can
    cost up to $400/hr, never mind travel expenses.
    
    The real or at least semi-real *reason* for these hiring haitus'
    is to get our employee/gross revenue ratio in line with our industry
    competitors. IBM is ~$136K/employee, AT&T is ~ $110K/employee, and
    DEC is ~$65K/employee. Some people I've spoken with say that the
    figure is "right" for our time/place in the market, I don't buy
    it, I think we have a problem. I appologize for bringing this up
    without a solution, none of the options I can imagine are attractive.
    The hiring freeze is the *easiest* method of controlling the employee
    part of the ratio, this assumes that revenue will continue to grow,
    I hope so.
    
    Meanwhile, back at the ranch, managers are told that lack of workforce
    is an unacceptable excuse for poor project performance. I don't
    envy the squeeze that puts our managers in, I can excuse them some
    craziness in hiring. The alternative is to "redeploy" current group
    members to get a replacement requisition(s) to hire someone with more
    "horsepower". Sends the message "grow (fast) or go" to our employees.
    
    I see some solutions, but they are not without risk. (are we getting
    too conservative??)Implementing a quarterized hiring plan keyed
    to projects, giving our managers some REAL authority, making them
    totally accountable for delivery, getting them to be less "turf"
    consciencious......
    
    Sorry if I haven't answered your questions, the "flavor" is here,
    though.
    
    Bill.

    
    	Amen in a Chorus Full of A-men.  Hear ye HERE YEE!
    
    

    But maybe some of these hiring practices result in the hiring of people
    who contribute to keeping that productivity-per-worker figure low?
    Is there a cyclical effect here?
    
    DEC sure does have a hard time getting itself together to grab the
    best candidates, as a whoooolllleee lotta complaints in a previous
    note pointed out! 

    Nina

    HELLO OUT THERE....I HAVE JUST FINISHED READING 112 STATEMENTS
    REGARDING RECRUITNG IN DIGITAL.  I AM AN EMPLOYMENT CONSULTANT AND
    FOUND IT QUITE INTERESTING.  WHEN I WASN'T IN EMPLOYMENT I, MYSELF,
    EXPERIENCED MOST OF THE SITUATIONS SOME OF YOU ENCOUNTERED.  WHEN
    I BECAME A RECRUITER, I VOWED THAT I WOULD NOT LET ANY OF MY CLIENTS
    GO THROUGH, WHAT I HAD GONE THROUGH.  I BELIEVE EVERYONE SHOULD
    BE RESPECTED WHETHER YOU ARE AN APPLICANT, A HIRING MANAGER, OR
    SOMEONE JUST LOOKING FOR INFORMATION.
    I AGREE WITH BILL BLAKE IN ALL THAT HE STATED TO HELP YOU BECOME
    MORE EDUCATED IN THE AREA OF EMPLOYMENT.
    
    REGARDS,
    
    SARA ALVARADO

     Re:  113    Hi Sara!  Glad to see you utilizing notes!!!
    
    
     It would be very helpful to Recruiters and Personnel Organizations
if Employees would put their BADGE NUMBER at the top of their resume'.
 
     This way, recruiters could input the BADGE # into TESS (Total
Emmployment Staffing System - used to match applicants with requisitions)
and the name and other related information about employees could
be pulled directly off the EMF (Employee Master File).  There is less
chance for errors this way (as long as your EMF record is up-to-date;
check with your PSA to make sure) and would help to eliminate duplicate
applicants in the TESS database.  When employees send their resumes out
to several recruiters, they are not always entered under the same exact
name.  Thus, TESS views them as different people and this makes it difficult
for TESS to perform the job it was intended to do - match applicants with
requisitions.  

     Thanks for your co-operation on this matter!  Happy Job Hunting!


Regards,

Nancy Rayna
Personnel Data Systems
TESS and VTX JOBSBOOK support 
(Questions/comments/suggestions?  Please send mail to HOMBAS::JOBSBOOK)

    <--(.115)
    
    Sad t'hear that, Bill; you have always sounded like the sort of
    recruiter DEC ought to have a lot more of!
    
    Best luck!
    
    						=maggie