Conference 7.286::digital

What kind of proprietary information are you allowed to leave unsecured today?
				/AHM/THX

    There has been a BIG push for information security of late. The
    "clean desk" policy DOES exist, it's in the PP&P in section 8 I
    think.
    
    I think you can expect to see a lot more in this regard, I've heard
    of one case where the Company sued a firm where an ex-employee went
    to work. Seems that they brought out a new product that looked exactly
    like one the guy was working on at DEC. The defense doesn't deny
    that the employee brought the info with him, they claim that the
    stuff wasn't proprietary since everyone had it spread all over their
    desks and office walls where anyone could see it. The last I heard
    was they (the other company) have a very good chance of winning.
    
    Best advice, don't leave anything on your desk you wouldn't want
    the competition to get hold of and use against us.
    
    Jim_who_used_to_be_a_happy_slob_now_a_neatfreak.

        I requested a locking file cabinet from Facilities some
        two-three months ago, so I'd have a place to lock up such
        info.  They keep telling me I'll get one "when they get
        one in".
        

    re: .2
    
>                                                 they claim that the
>    stuff wasn't proprietary since everyone had it spread all over their
>    desks and office walls where anyone could see it.
    
    That argument only makes sense if our offices are accessible to
    the public.  This isn't the case in any DEC facility I'm familiar
    with.

	I have just looked over Section 8 of the PP&PM and it
	talks about properly classifying and labeling restricted
	information, but all it says about storing it is:

	"Corporate Security issues guidelines you must follow in
	handling these kinds of information.  These guidelines may need
	to be modified locally to make sure local country law and 
	procedures are followed."

	(from section 8.03)

	I, for one, do not remember ever seeing any of these guidelines
	from Corporate Security (or local security).

Frank

    One day a few years ago, I happened to walk into work and noticed a
    little stack of brochures next to the Security desk titled "The
    Protection of [digital logo] Proprietary Information", issued by
    Corporate Security.  This is probably what the PP&P would be referring
    to.  Its also dated Dec 1983, so it may be a bit dated. It states:
    
    --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
    
    Storage of Proprietary Information
    
    RESTRICTED DISTRIBUTION
    
    Information shall be stored in a secure container which shall be
    locked when left unattended.
    
    All original drawings and computer media classified Restricted
    Distribution and stored in site design libraries shall be stored
    separately from other information, under lock and key.
    
    It is recommended that this information not be stored in on-line
    disk files or systems unless adequate security measures have been
    taken.  Direct dial-in access, to these systems, should not be allowed.
    
    FOR INTERNAL USE ONLY
    
    Information has no special storage requirements in house, but affords
    the same protection as Restricted Distribution when off Digital
    property.
    
    PERSONNEL CONFIDENTIAL
    
    Information shall be stored in a secure container which shall be
    locked when left unattended.
    
    It is recommended that this information not be stored in on-line
    disk files or systems unless adequate security measures have been
    taken.  Direct dial-in access, to these systems, should not be allowed.
    
    ....
    
    Informally Generated Materials Containing Proprietary Information
    
    Informal materials such as flip charts, slides, etc. which contain
    Proprietary Information should be labeled "Restriced Distribution",
    "For Internal Use Only", or "Personnel Confidential" and handled
    and stored with the appropriate controls.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
    

    Re: .4
    
    Don't know exactly what type of site you're at, we have a bunch
    of new products engineering here at CXO. We run some fairly extensive
    customer tours as well. Both of these activities generate a lot
    of non-employee traffic. Guess in the case at hand they could make
    that statement as well (I don't know what facility the worked in).
    
    As to the Policy book, mea culpa. I repeated what I had been told,
    next time I do my own research. Clean desk is probably a good idea
    though.
    
    Jim

    There has been a major discussion of this here at CXO in the last
    few weeks. We didn't do very well in the last security audit. We
    were told that the "Clean desk policy" is becoming a Digital standard
    and we would have to abide. Also we were told that several sites
    "back east" had already implemented the policy. We have asked that 
    security be increased at the entrances to the various engineering
    areas of the building so that they may be considered "locked" and 
    therefore people can leave maiterial that would normally be required 
    to be locked up out on their desk.
    
    This is being hashed over at a very high level (something about
    the mating of elephants) and we don't know the results yet. If we
    cannot get the entire area secured to the satisfaction of the people
    involved we will have to implement the "Clean desk policy".
    
    			Dick

Somebody should inform the producers of that security brochure about the
guidelines on use of the corporate logo.  A trademark is an assest just
like anything that might be on our desks, and using it improperly can
compromise its value.

Everybody should play by the same rules.  I won't even bring up the
U***** W** materials that somebody put on every desk in MKO this week,
in clear violation of policy 6.19.

    One item that should be locked up is your Engineering Notebook (the
    kind with the numbered pages) that you write all your inventions
    into. Some are marked "Property of Digital Equipment Corporation".
    
    
    But locking up your phone book is going too far!
    
    
    rmm
    

    
    
    Scenario::
    
    ring rign!!
    YOU
    good mornin giant widget engineering.
    THEM
    Hi is Joe bltzvck there? 
    YOU
    no I'm soory Joe is out.
    THEM
    OH. Say can you tell me if joe is still working on the lefthanded
    whammyframitz?
    YOU
    No he is now involved in the upside down thingustingler.
    THEM
    Isn't that the same as the upside down thingyjingle?
    YOU
    No it does Blah blah blah. By the way who is calling please?
    THEM
    this is bob grmflg, form midget widget design. 

    Where did them get joes phone number and name? Bob's son's girlfriend
    is the janitor and he picked her up at work one night and while
    waiting loocke dup engineering in the company phone book that was
    laying on the lobby desk. 
    
    You don't know who is on the phone unless thay tell you and in order
    to not appear rude a lot of good info about your thingustingler just
    got given to the competition.
    
    now you know why phonebooks should get locked up.

    Perhaps a better way to prevent this kind of security breach would
    be to answer "I'm sorry, Joe's not in, may I ask who is calling?
    
    It seems to me that not talking about the left-handed frammajamitz
    on the phone to a stranger is a fairly obvious security step...
    
    Greg

        Of course, until such time as the corporation moves away from
        open plan offices and restrictive rules on spaced allowed per
        employee, we will have security risks.
        
        q
        

    
    
    	I'll keep my DEC phone book secure when they give me an office with
    	a lockable door.  Come on now, if there are customers "getting
    	loose" in employee office areas then you have a bigger bloody
    	security problem than me locking up my phone book. At that
    	point, someone is NOT doing their job and to move the blame
    	(?) to the regular employee is WRONG.
    
    	The senario on the phone should NEVER happen. If I'm asked if
    	Joe Cool is still working on the Whittaker Valve Project then
    	I ask "Who's calling?" and take a message. If I don't get any
    	acceptable answer then I politely end the conversation and report
    	the incident to Security. To continue talking is WRONG!
    
    							mike

  I agree with .14, we all know how competitive our business is and the
importance of protecting DEC's proprietary products.  It seems that there
is a bit of paranoia now, and thats unfortunate.  I'm a CRR at CXO where
all incomming software calls are screened, we also have specialists on
standby calling in, plus the general public.  WE *NEVER* discuss any issue
over the phone at all.  We take numbers and have the parties involved return
calls.  If someone won't give us a number, well, thats their problem.

  From reading this and other notes files it appears that DEC is becoming
less of an open society internally and that attemps are being made to control
both formal and informal discussion/transmission of information.  I don't
think this has to be a problem, with the size and scope of business these days
is seems inevetable this would happen.  It does appear that there needs to be
a clear and concise approach to internal controls.  We have some security 
measures in place, but they have been locally developed and may not meet the
corporate point of view.

  I truely hope that, for the most part, DEC can be an open society only limit-
ing information that really deserves protection...I believe our inherent
'Openess' is what puts DEC so far above other companies (at least above other
places I've worked). 

Rick

    C'MON folks....phone books don't make calls...PEOPLE do.
    
    Don't lock up the phone books! They aren't guilty of anything!
    
    8')
    
    Better yet, lock up the TELEPHONES!
    

    how about for the sake of brevity
    
    use common sense ....................... doinks !

I'm a documentation writer.  EVERYTHING I have around me is 
company confidential, especially before the product is announced.
I presume that every piece of information that I work from and
every version of every draft of everything I write would have to 
be locked up every night.  That means spending time in the morning
taking everything out of the locked file cabinet, etc. and spreading
it out...spending time in the evening closing up shop again.  Add
another hour to the work day, between settling down time in the 
morning and closing up time in the evening. 

I recently read an article about desk styles...about clean desk-ers
vs. messy desk-ers.  The researchers showed that people with the 
clean desks spend a lot more time organizing and filing...and questioned
whether the time invested was worth it.  I definitely need to spread
stuff around the office to facilitate getting my job one.

Clean desk policy would hamper everyone's productivity.  It's hard enough
to find enough hours in the day/week/month to meet deadlines.
It's tough working long hours and weekends to fit in the necessary
project work and meetings. Sure wold hate to come in on a weekend to
fill in the work lost by clean-up-the-desk an re-open-shop time.  While
I agree that security is an issue, I'm afraid the burden is falling on the 
wrong people! 

Yuck!!!

    Having worked the DoD arena, I've got a little different perspective
    on all this. Just as materials there were classified and had to
    treated with care to prevent dissemination, so are trade secrets.
    There's really no big difference why. The 'other' guy wants to get
    his hands on 'em to save the $$$$$ of figuring it out himself.
    
    Clean desk policy should be enforced for very sensitive data in
    an 'open' area. That doesn't not preclude the creation of secure
    areas. (areas that have *very* limited access, kind of like a walk-in
    file cabinet).
    
    Anyway, no manner of physcial security is going to work if the people
    working with it wish to disseminate it for their own gain.
    
    Security has it's place. To bad is has to.
    
    Jim
    

    .19:
    
    Tell me, when you were in the DoD arena, did you have a cubicle
    with a gap in the partition for an entrance, or an office with walls
    up to the ceiling and a door with a lock?
    
    Dick

    Years ago, there was a fairly common technology which nicely reconciled
    the demands of security and the need to keep information readily
    available. It was called a rolltop desk!

    
    Just saw a poster :
    
	< Clean desk is a sign of a sick mind. >    

    If the contary is true, I work with extreemly healthy individuals .-)))

Well, I had a boss who used to say "empty desk, empty mind" in
response to those  who criticized her messiness by saying
"messy desk, messy mind."  But here I guess the issue i
"valuing differences"!!!--some people work well with
a neat environment and some need everything around them. I can
be a "liberal" on this issue since I'm on both sides at
different times...but I'd hate to lose the ability to respond 
to the current conditions.  

At times, I need to keep driving on and to heck with the mess--
I've got to have everything around.  At other times I feel a driving 
need to get clarity by separating the wheat from the chaff.

Many of us specifically do not want to work in the DoD environment...
We want the ability to be ourselves.  This is a good example of why.

Maybe if we ignore this, it will just go away.... I can't believe
it's enforceable in the development environemtn!

    I see a lot of security proposals coming out that I personally object
    to.  The clean-desk policy is another one.
    
    This seems strange to those who know me: 90% of the time my desk
    looks like I just moved in, with a bare minimum of telephone, in-
    basket, and terminal.  Papers are neatly filed away.  However, there
    are times when I am in the middle of some rather complex work, and
    the order of things laid out on the desk (and on the chalkboard)
    are important.

    And the clean-desk policy only solves part of the problem.  I work
    on sensitive projects at times, and this information must be spread
    out during the day.  On at least three occasions, managers not in
    my own division have paraded outside customers through the area.
    Once I had to erase my chalkboard, because it contained a list of
    known bugs in a product and their fix schedule.  I was trying to
    get things together before moving them to paper, so I had to spend
    another hour recreating the schedule after they left.  So what do
    I do--keep my desk clean during the work day too?
    
    If I'm working on sensitive stuff, I'd much rather work in a secure
    area.  There may be some areas in the company where this isn't
    possible, but my area isn't one of them.

    
    Ahh, the "clean-desk" policy...
    
    I just started a contract in westboro, YWO.  There is going to be
    a security audit soon.  So, we must *WEAR* our badges (you know
    the last time my badge saw the ouside of my wallet?  Took 10 minutes
    to extract it!)  Yes, I got a slap on my hands for not wearing it.
    Your desk, must be *CLEAN* and *SECURE*!  From what I heard, one
    of the high-level mgrs went around one weekend collecting software
    and listings from desk and sent out a message telling folks wear
    to find 'em!  They also spent one moring sneaking in the back door
    and getting into the computer room (get this) by going thru a large
    distrubition bin!
    
    Now, I don't mind this. We should be a little more secure.  This
    is FS hq.  But, wana guess what happens after the audit is over?
    If history repeats itself we will be back to "normal" within a month.
    I'll let you know...time to find that damn key and get my work out!
    :-)
    
    GOG
    

Re .25:

>They also spent one moring sneaking in the back door and getting into the
>computer room (get this) by going thru a large distrubition bin!

When they close that loophole, suggest to them to try going through the
hung ceiling, or under the threshhold if you have raised floors...
				/AHM

I requested a copy of DEC STD 010, which was referenced in .0 as "the
standard" that refers to "clean desks", and got a reply from Jim
Boice.  He said he'd seen this discussion, and said that DEC STD 010
doesn't deal with "security":

"DEC STD 010 (three sections) deals with Engineering Documentation 
 Checking, e.g. the checker's responsibilities, checklists, 
 printed circuit checklists, and so forth."

Has anyone seen anything, IN WRITING, requiring "clean desks" (other
than generic statements like "keep your office neat")?

You want to secure the information piled on my desk?

Issue me a tarp, one chain to go around the desk, and a padlock.

I'll put the tarp over my desk and chain it to the bottom of the desk.

    Re .20:
    
>   Tell me, when you were in the DoD arena, did you have a cubicle
>   with a gap in the partition for an entrance, or an office with walls
>   up to the ceiling and a door with a lock?
    
    At one time, I had an office (shared) with a door and walls and
    everything.
    
    At another time, I had a part of a table in a big room, with about
    40 people running around all the time.
    
    The difference is that the second area was physically secure. People
    didn't just wander in without a reason for being there.
    
    The story back in .something about having to erase the board to
    avoid a troop of customers is believable, but shouldn't happen.
    Certain 'areas' should be protected from the real world to prevent
    the clean desk stuff. 
    
    I didn't say that I was a clean desk proponent. (Anyone who's seen
    my desk during a work frenzy can attest to that) But I do think
    that security is something that has to be maintained to keep our
    competative edge. Spending lots of bucks to develop a product, only
    to have a competitor announce the same thing at the same time due
    to having stuff trickle outside of our walls, just isn't good business
    sense.
    
    Jim
    

Message-class: DECMAIL-MS
From:	NAME: GRAINGER
	INITLS: DAVE
	FUNC: FIELD SERVICE
	ADDR: OGO1-2/L11
	TEL: 276-9625 <6314@DECMAIL@OGOMTS@OGO>
Posted-date: 16-Oct-1987
Subject: PROPRIETARY INFORMATION

To:	See Below


***********************************************************************
         THIS MESSAGE IS FROM DAVE GRAINGER AND BOB HULT
***********************************************************************

A "Clean Desk" policy, will soon become part of DEC Standard 10, 
establishing responsibility for the security of proprietary 
information with every employee in Digital.  Because the protection of 
confidential information is of critical importance to the Corporation, 
we in Field Service are implementing the policy as part of our 
internal control program.

A "clean desk" is the responsibility of every employee in Digital.  
This means any information marked Digital Confidential or Restricted 
Distribution must be locked up if an employee is away from the 
workstation in excess of two (2) hours.

Samples of prorietary information are:

	Product Plans
	Marketing Plans
	Corporate Implementation Plans
	Strategies
	Operations Plans
	Financial Information such as Pinkbooks, Redbooks and 
	  Goldbooks
	FSMC minutes
	Monthly Reports of FSMC members

Good judgement should prevail in determining whether information 
should be stored away and locked.

If secured space is an issue, you should explore the possibility of 
purchasing lockable and secure shelving.

DG/rb

Read carefully.....

All it says is that items marked "Digital Confidential" or "Digital Restricted
Distribution" must be locked away if the desk is unattended for more than two
hours.

That does *not* equate to clearing the desk.  The desk can have any amount of
junk on it that is not so marked and therefore needn't be cleared.

jb

Just about every document on my desk is so marked!  This would mean clearing the
entire thing.  There's a policy in our organization, though I'm not sure if
it's corporate wide, that says EVERY piece of documentation we write, or any
presentations we give (including copies of them), must be marked "Company
Confidential".

-mark

    To echo a previous reply:
    
    Think that you could get them to spring for a roll-top desk?
    (I wonder if you could bring in one of your own, and ask them to
    remove the company's desk?"
    
    Dick

        Re: .32
        
> There's a policy in our organization, though I'm not sure if
> it's corporate wide, that says EVERY piece of documentation we write, or any
> presentations we give (including copies of them), must be marked "Company
> Confidential".
        
        `Company Confidential' is the wrong label for any Digital
        proprietary information.  The policy for your organization
        conflicts with the corporate standard.  Section 8.03 in
        Personnel Policies and Procedures manual lists the following
        three classifications: 
        
                        Restricted Distribution
                        For Internal Use Only
                        Personnel Confidential
        
        Of course, this will be changing.  There is a new policy that
        has been in the works for a long time that defines the following
        categories for Digital proprietary information: 
        
                        Digital Internal Use Only
                        Digital Confidential
                        Digital Restricted Distribution
                        Digital Personal
        
        These terms are defined in note 152 of
        HUMAN::SECURITY_INFORMATION (press Select or KP7). 
        
        					B.J.

    The classification is also up to the *originator*.  (Of course,
    that can be loosely interpreted to mean the Cost Center Manager
    or whoever...)

    Occasionally you run across individuals (or groups) that equate
    classification with importance: that is, the more classified stuff
    I have to deal with, the more important my job is.  Fortunately,
    handling classified material can be a real pain.  These two forces
    may work to counterbalance each other and keep classified stuff
    in check.
    
    Overclassifying can be as bad as underclassifying.  It tends to
    make people lax about handling sensitive information and obscures
    what's really important.

    From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
    Newsgroups: clari.biz.labor,clari.biz.features,clari.tw.environment
    Subject: Fight desk stress on National Clean Off Your Desk Day
    Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 18:08:03 PST
   
	BELLEVUE, Wash. (UPI) -- If you thought a messy desk was the sign of a
zealous, overproductive employee, think again. It's National Clean Off
Your Desk Day and you're suffering from desk stress.
	A messy desk is not only an eyesore, but it can lead to low
productivity and stress, warned Dan Stamp, president of Priority
Management System, an international workplace consulting firm.
	"Most of us aren't prepared to cope with the ever-growing magnitude
of information that crosses our desks," said Tee Houston-Aldridge, a
management training expert with Priority, in a report on the eve of
National Clean Off Your Desk Day celebrated Jan. 11.
	With corporate America scaling back its work force and one employee
often doing the job of two, it's easy for things to pile up.
	Typical office desks often are a catchall for old rumpled faxes, used
coffee cups, file folders, plastic containers with remnants of last
Tuesday's lunch, newspapers from last year, magazines you never got to
and never will read, bright yellow Post-it notes with unknown telephone
numbers and half a dozen pens that don't work.
	No matter what inhabits your desk top, Priority said if you have more
than 10 items lurking on the surface, the odds are your productivity,
energy and ability to concentrate have declined.
	"A desk stacked with paper also causes stress as people are
constantly reminded about unfinished work and are constantly looking for
lost files," Stamp said.
	Desk stress is a very real and costly problem in today's workplace,
Houston-Aldridge said.
	"Desk stress is the result of silent obstacles to productivity at
our desks as we glimpse unfinished project files, are distracted by
numerous telephone messages and spend wasted hours searching for
documents on a desk which, on average, has more than 36 hours of work on
it at any given time," Houston-Aldridge said.
	Priority put together a test so that you can find out if your desk
causes you unnecessary desk stress. Rate yourself 1 for 'yes' and 0 for
a 'no' answer to find your desk-stress quotient.
	1. Are there more than 10 items on your desk right now?
	2. Are there more than three files or projects on your desk?
	3. Do you have an in-basket on your desk?
	4. Do you leave work on your desk in separate piles?
	5. Have you been unable to find something on your desk in the past
week?
	6. Do co-workers hesitate to put important documents on your desk,
fearing you'll lose them?
	7. Do you have a pile of unfinished reading within eyesight?
	8. Are you known for having a messy desk?
	9. Can other people find items on your desk if you aren't there?
	10. Do you clean off your desk before you leave for the day?
	If you score 7-10 points, then Priority said: "If desk stress was a
medical condition, you'd be in intensive care.
	"Your messy desk is hampering your productivity and could affect how
you are regarded by others in your workplace. Change your habits before
you get left behind."
	A 4 to 6 score is not as critical. "You may not have the messiest
desk in the office, but you're still a desk stress candidate," Priority
said. "You're wasting valuble time and energy because of your messy
desk. Get organized and take control of your physical working
environment by keeping your desk clear of unfinished work."
	At the top of the cleanliness list are workers who score between 1
and 3 points. "You've conquered desk stress," Priority said. "Either
by habit or by training, you have learned the benefits of a clean desk
and you enjoy the improved productivity and peace of mind that comes
with it. Be ever vigilant of the mountain of memos, papers, messages and
reading that quickly accumulates if you let it."
	If your ratings put you at the top of the garbage heap, Priority
offers some suggestions to help clean up your act just in time to
celebrate National Clean Off Your Desk Day.
	-- Clear your desk of everything: papers, pens, pencils, clock,
calendar, in-trays, paper clips, etc.
	-- Put it away -- in drawers, filing cabinets, closets -- any place you
won't see it. Keep your desk clear of everything other than materials
related to the project you're working on.
	-- Keep your in-box out of sight so you won't be tempted to respond to
items as they're put in the tray. (You need to remain focused n the
project at hand.)
	-- Record all activities and plans in one place (a personal
organizer). This will cut down on time spent looking in multiple places
for appointments, phone numbers, projects, to-do list, etc.
	-- Set up three files: correspondence, reading, and projects. Sort
through all documents and assign each to a file or discard and/recycle.
Before filing, determine when you want to look at the document for
action. Mark it accordingly and log it in your personal organizer.
	But if you're a chronic desk stress sufferer, beware. Keep these tips
far from your cluttered desktop where they could become just another
part of your tortured work history.

    I haven't studied the matter in a university, but in 3 decades of
    working experience I saw many great people with real messy desks
    who didn't look stressed at all whilst producing a lot.
    I also saw people with perfectly clean desks not stressed either
    but producing very little...
    I also saw.......
    
    I wonder how much money those "experts" make with their studies
    where they make some sensational discoveries (e.g one looses time
    looking for something.....) and then generalize the whole thing
    into a fancy report.
    /fred
    
    into some 

    .-1
    
    no Fred, it is true, i think what you saw is just small sample,
    and just a statistical fluctuations, if you survey many many more
    people you'll find it is true, ORGANIZED people are more efficient
    and less stressed too, no doubt about it, this works not just at
    work but also in home and in every think we do. so a DECeee with
    a clean desk is more likely to be more efficient that a non clean
    disk DECeee. offcourse this assume ALL other things being EQUAL.

    is one DECeee is smarter than another, but has a less clean and
    organized cube, they can still produce more even with less
    organized disk. 

    i always try to organized my cube too, i just wish DEC bring us more
    green planets in our cubes, i like the look and feel of green
    and it makes one more cool and in touch of nature and all the fresh
    air that comes out of of them and all.

    hope this helps.

    \bye
    \nasser

    Gee, /nasser, how many planets do you have
    in your office?  It must be very crowded....(8
    
    I have seen those with a clean office do unbelievable
    amounts of work, and do little, if anything.
    I have also seen those with offices that look like a
    bomb went off in them do unbelievable amounts of work,
    and do little, if anything.
    
    Someone who does little, if anything with a clean office
    "looks better" then someone who does little in a messy office....

    
>    no Fred, it is true, i think what you saw is just small sample,
>    and just a statistical fluctuations, if you survey many many more
>    people you'll find it is true, ORGANIZED people are more efficient
>    and less stressed too, no doubt about it, this works not just at
>    work but also in home and in every think we do. so a DECeee with
>    a clean desk is more likely to be more efficient that a non clean
>    disk DECeee. offcourse this assume ALL other things being EQUAL.

>    is one DECeee is smarter than another, but has a less clean and
>    organized cube, they can still produce more even with less
>    organized disk. 

	This seems to mix messiness with being unorganised.

	Many people have told me how messy and clutered my desk is, and would
	I be better if it was tidied up a bit.

	My answer is "no".

	My desk may look cluttered and messy, but it is organised.

	Different areas of the desk are for different things, with the most
	important things on the top of their respective messy piles - my
	desk is organised to best fit the way I work.

	If I need to find/work on anything, I know exactly where it is.

	So, although others only see a messy desk, I see organised work.	

	Heather

    An engineer asked me to clean up his desk for him....I did,
    with another secretary.  We laughed over what we found.
    
    Change...everywhere!
    This guy could never find a pencil...we found at leat 40!
    Paycheck stubs......hundreds of em!
    Ties stuffed in drawers, numerous coffee cups, used!
    Blueprints w/coffee stains, memo's, etc....
    
    It only took him 2 weeks to get it back to it's messiness! (8

    
    What a stupid subject.  IMHO.
    
    Glenn

re .41

Two questions immediately come to mind...

(a)  So - why is that funny?

(b)  Do we really have people to clean other people's desks?

	To take the subject a little more seriously, I really would
	like to adopt some of the advice about a clean desk. The idea
	that you start the day with an empty desk, and work on one thing
	at a time, is very attractive. It's usually suggested that you
	keep each topic in a separate folder in your filing cabinet, then
	take out one folder at a time and work on it. It's said that
	having lots of work in progress, notes, in-trays, etc. lying
	about in plain view makes you anxious and prevents concentration.

	Well, I have tried! I cleared my desk - admittedly by putting the
	heaps of paper on top of the cabinet behind me (which is probably
	going to get me in deep trouble next time a senior manager walks
	round this office) - and for a while I was able to concentrate.

	Then the phone rang. It was a salesman who wanted a reference for
	one of our less-popular products, immediately or (at worst) within
	two hours. We don't have any references for that product, nor do
	we know which customers bought it, nor if we did would we know
	who the account managers are for those products, nor... so the
	work got pushed to the side, and I started ringing people. Then
	another phone call: when will product X be available on Alpha AXP?
	Then a colleague comes by with another request. Someone from	
	Europe wants a presentation, or a copy of a report.

	Nothing unusual about this - it's just that it militates against
	the "clean desk" style of working. Also, most advocates of clean
	desks recommend phone management, along the lines of "I will
	answer my phone from 2 till 4; from 9 to 10 I make my own calls;
	the rest of the time my secretary will take messages so I can get
	some work done". This is great, but it has a downside: the phones
	keep ringing, and nobody has usually set any expectations about
	responses. Because at Digital everyone is supposed to be available
	all the time. And a senior manager will go ape if a phone rings
	unanswered, but the few secretaries can't handle them.

	So, in short, it looks as though it's difficult to have a tidy
	desk in an untidy organisation.

	/Tom

    Of course, a clean desk, necessiates a thorough filing system. In many
    cases, electronic filing, is nigh on impossible, as IT groups seem to
    think that no one needs more than 10,000 blocks of disk space.
    (Actually, I run a workstation with over 3Gigabytes of Disk, and that
    is barely adequate).
    
    THe other approach is paper filing, but then, one can't get approval to
    even order manila folders at the moment...
    
    q
    

    .44

>	Then the phone rang. It was a salesman who wanted a reference for
>	one of our less-popular products, immediately or (at worst) within
>	two hours. We don't have any references for that product, nor do
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	we know which customers bought it, nor if we did would we know
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	who the account managers are for those products, nor... so the
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	work got pushed to the side, and I started ringing people. Then

    it seems to me that we need some product data base to do your job,
    that contains all the above underscored info in it and much more,
    dont we have such a thing?  if not, why NOT?? sale people should be able 
    to access such a centralized product data base using as specialized 
    domain AI interface (which is something not too hard to do ) , this data
    base will up kept update continuously by some group whose whole job
    and function and purpose in life is to maintain this data base
    and keep it up to date with current product information.

    you just sit down and ask these question to the data base and get you
    answers and call the customer and tell them what they want.

    sure they'll be some things which are not in the data base, for this
    you make some phone calls, BUT this DB resource at your finger
    tips, your work will require much less paper work, and you will
    still have a clean disk too.

    hope this help.

    \bye
    \nasser

    If a cluttered desk is the sign of a cluttered mind, what is an empty
    desk a sign of?
    
    tom_p

    Re .43 
    
    Sorry....I should have mentioned that this was not at Dec.
    
    Re .49
    
    I wouldn't know, as I'm not a secretary.  But, what do you have
    against secretaries?

    Sorry about the rathole, folks.....
    
    I was noting from off-site, and having to "set host" is known
    to slow things down immensely.  I couldn't go back and spend
    the time to fix "grammatical" errors.... 
    
    I meant to add to my note that cleaning that Engineer's desk
    wasn't going to make him change his habits.  A person works the
    way that is comfortable to them, and trying to make having a clean
    desk a policy is pretty silly.......
     

    
       If I had to clean my desk, it could push out delivery of our
    application by at least 6 months!  :-) :-)
    
    					-mjg

    I already don't have enough time to keep up with my desk & the work
    that generates it's "free form" design. To make a requirement to keep a
    pin neat desk means maybe we should hire back some TSFOd folks so
    everyone has a reasonable work load - including the extra work that
    will be needed to keep ours desks "sparkling clean"