Conference 7.286::digital

    If this is a real incident, I don't think we should try to work
    it out here... the standard Open Door Policy applies.  
    
    If it is a hypothetical case, or something in the far distant past,
    fine.
    
    Marge

    Such cases should be taken through Personnel, not Notes Conferences.
    
    Andy

    re.0 do it the boss's way, and THEN work out the issue. To refuse
    is insubordination, and grounds for disciplinary action. If doing
    it the bosses way is wrong, that can be determined - actions DO
    have consequences. Truth will out. Resigning in the face of a direct
    order IS immature.

    
    Frankly, I've found that looking for help from Personnel in such
    a situation is like looking for Southern Comfort in a Budweiser
    can.
    
    
    KBS
    

    
    This is not SOAPBOX. The Moderators do not, I believe, think this
    an approprate forum for name-calling at Personnel or any other part
    of Digital.
    
    - Andy

    re:.3:
    
>    re.0 do it the boss's way, and THEN work out the issue. To refuse
>    is insubordination, and grounds for disciplinary action. If doing
>    it the bosses way is wrong, that can be determined - actions DO
>    have consequences. Truth will out. Resigning in the face of a direct
>    order IS immature.

    I take issue with the use of the term "insubordination" at Digital.
    Ken Olsen's famous dictum of management is that the person doing
    a job knows it better than his manager who is not doing it.  Ergo,
    the DEC guideline or policy (one or the other) is that managers
    aren't supposed to claim expertise simply by dint of management
    rank.  Extrapolation (how we often run it here! if the contributor
    knows how to play his cards):  The manager works FOR his direct
    reports, not the other way around!  And THAT is what made DEC great!
    
    We are NOT a military-style heirarchy.  I once had a supervisor
    brought into the company from a very very large, famous company
    where he was a non-manager, but where everyone's "rank" was public
    knowledge, and everyone took orders from above, period.  He tried
    that on me, when I was the technical expert.  It was a messy battle
    but I played by the rules and won -- I kept my job, got promoted
    by his successor, and he got lateraled to a high-enough level 
    contributor's job where he is doing well too.  
    
    Termination isn't easy.  Once you're a permanent employee, you're
    "tenured":  You can't be fired at the whim of your manager.  There's
    a four-step process (except for certain "cause" like criminal activity
    against the company), and you can turn it around at any stage if
    you go to personnel and/or ODP (if personnel doesn't do it).
    "Insubordination" is NOT cause for immediate termination.  In fact,
    if the employee handled it right, the charge could backfire.
          fred (never subordinate to ANYONE at DEC and still alive,
    			even though I'm a "contributor")

    Let me rephrase : To refuse to do something, contrary to a direct
    order, is insubordination. Etc... And that comes from direct exper-
    ience.

    re: .8, .3:
    
    It seems to me that to make a stand based on your principles, and to be
    willing to put your career on the line based on what you believe in, is
    far from immature.  I think this is called "standing up for what you
    believe in".  Please explain how behaviour that in any other arena
    would be termed "noble" is "immature" in your book. 

>    Termination isn't easy.  Once you're a permanent employee, you're
>    "tenured":  You can't be fired at the whim of your manager.  There's
>    a four-step process (except for certain "cause" like criminal activity
>    against the company), and you can turn it around at any stage if
>    you go to personnel and/or ODP (if personnel doesn't do it).
>    "Insubordination" is NOT cause for immediate termination.  In fact,
>    if the employee handled it right, the charge could backfire.

    I disagree, kind of.  Certain managers try to make it easy for you
    to get terminated at their whim.  Take it from somebody who's been
    there.  But if the employee find him/herself in a "tar & feather"
    situation, whilst sitting there saying "what do I do wrong?", then
    it's up to the employee to invoke ODP and get the higher levels
    of mgmt involved.  In my particular case, mgmt thru THREE levels higher
    were all part of the "good ol' boys" ring.  If an employee doesn't
    know any better, he might be convinced that it's like trying to
    fight city hall.  Thankfully, I believe in Digital and went *way
    up* the mgmt chain -- I still have a job, still love Digital, and
    marks were made on the records of those managers.
    
    Believing in ODP
    Jon  

    The first rule of knowing how to deal with the organization is to
    read ALL the rules.  One of the first things I did on getting hired
    at DEC was to get my manager's copy of the Policies and Procedures
    and read them through.  It IS difficult to fire an employee who
    knows the rules without a good and pretty well documented cause.
    
    Not impossible, of course, and there are times when a Neanderthal
    manager can get away with a lot, but I've been in a couple of nasty
    disputes myself and come off unscathed (well, singed but intact)
    because I knew enough to demand that things be played out by the
    rules.  That alone was sometimes enough to make a manager back off
    and reconsider.
    
    /Dave
    
    

    
    "Insubordination" is one of the few offences listed in P&P that're
    cause for IMMEDIATE termination.                                  
    
                                            =maggie

    Assuming .12 is correct, can someone please give DEC's definition
    of insubordination?
    
    	just curious...
    	  Bj

    Far's I can tell, it isn't defined.  Which suggests that it should
    be understood in the ordinary way:  deliberate failure to obey a
    direct (and legitimate!) order from a person above you in your
    particular chain of authority.
    
    The relevant passage is in 6.21, Corrective Action (20 May 85):
    
    "MAJOR OFFENSES
     --------------
    Certain employee conduct may be so serious as to justify immediate
    discharge.  Defining all such instances is impossible; however,
    the following are some of the more common example:  [endangering]
    other employees, theft..., fighting, falsification of...records...,
    [grossly negligent property damage], INSUBORDINATION, accepting
    gratuities [from vendors or customers], [having] intoxicants on
    [DEC] property, inappropriate use or disclosure of [DEC] proprietary
    information, absence of three consecutive days without notifying
    the supervisor, etc." 
    
    (emphasis mine)

re .14:

Would I be fired for having bought wine at lunchtime and kept it in a bag
next to my desk until I go home under the following rule;

>    [having] intoxicants on [DEC] property, 

I hope not. In fact there are many DEC sites where achohol is on sale.

Dave.

    Re the last couple, on the alcohol side.
    
    Dave, remember that Digital is a multi-national, and always
    is a "good neighbour" and conforms to local ways of doing things.
    
    The various handbooks/P & P manuals/rulebooks are all country
    specific, and I presume the one quoted here is for the U.S.
    
    I wonder what the UK one says? Must remember to take those cans
    home one night........
    
    Peter.
    

    re .14
    
    If all it says is INSUBORDINATION it would seem that "they" (anyone
    trying to argue an employee was guilty of this) would have difficulty
    making it stick.  It appears that this is very broad and leaves
    a _lot_ of room to interpretation, yes?
    	Bj
    

    <--(.17)
    
    No, actually labor law is pretty clear on the subject.  It might
    indeed be tough "making it stick", but only if you contested (a)
    that it happened at all or (b) that the order was legitimate.  If
    they can prove those, it's usually all over.
    
    						=maggie

        I once had a ZKO manager tell me that my insubordination was
        part of my charm, by which he meant, I hope, that my refusal to
        commit to the impossible or to let a blatant mistake be made
        unprotested made me valuable. Trying to balance the paradox
        that insubordination is a firing offense but "Do the right
        thing" is rule #1, and KO and Grace Hopper actively sell
        the "It's easier to appologize than to ask permission", is
        part of the charm and the Tao of DEC.
        
        JimB.

RE: .15

In the U.S., yes.  In France, of course not.  You know better than I what the
U.K conventions are likely to be.

--PSW

There is a DEC joke in Germany:

How do you make an American sweat?


Bring him a bottle of wine at his office.


Friends have *very* often brought me bottles of wine at work.  I used to
*immediately* take them out to the car.  A former manager told me that was
silly; as long as the bottle wasn't open I shouldn't have to worry...

/john

Re .21:

And I've had someone tell me I was in grave danger for having an empty,
clean, dry Chateau Latour bottle on my file cabinet as my badge of office
for being the user representative for LATOUR::.

All I did was make sure the bottle smelled clean.  The policy talks
about alcohol, not empty bottles.
				/AHM
P. S.  No doubt the 3 liter Hardly Burgundy bottle for GALLO:: went over
even better.

    I was once given a gift that consisted of cork-shaped chocolates
    stored in a real-looking champagne bottle - the chocolates were
    removed through the bottom of the bottle (there was a large cork
    there).  I had the bottle sitting on my desk.  I received not more
    than a few incredulous comments and looks from people who thought
    it was real.
    				Steve