Conference 7.286::digital

    That's wild.  I know Baybank does just the opposite.  The deposits
    are put into the nightly batch and then the withdrawls are made.
    
    We've taken advantage of this, taking our theatre night on Wednesday
    rather than Thursday in order to avoid the lines.  DEC deposits the 
    money at the end of the business day on Wednesday.  The auto-teller
    withdrawl gets batched in after the paycheck is deposited.
    
    One more reason not to open a DCU checking account.

    							Ralph

This seems to be an example of toy programmers working on a real project.

1. I've never heard of a bank doing anything other than processing all deposits
   then all withdrawals.

2. Only with unique transaction IDs assigned from a single central source (a
   totally unrealistic concept) you could sequence transactions by absolute
   time (another unrealistic concept in a distributed system) and process them
   in order.

3.  Processing withdrawals before deposits is wrong.

This leaves only the first choice.

/john

I know of a bank in Buffalo that wouldn't seem to "bounce" a check until the
end of a business day, or something.  I made a mistake once balancing my
checkbook (forgot to subtract a charge for checks) which gave the following
sequence of events on the statement: 

Account (slightly) positive
Small check clears, causing account to go negative
Deposit on same day, account goes positive
3 days later:  another check (~$100) presented, account goes negative (by $1)
Another small ($1) check presented.
The $100 check bounces, account goes positive so $1 check clears.

Was tough living close to the edge (college student)

-Mike

re Note 232.1 by MLOKAI::MACK:

> DEC deposits the money at the end of the business day on Wednesday. 

This certainly WAS the pattern, as confirmed by years of bank statements.
But just a month ago I was socked with a NSF charge for a payment made by
check to BayBanks itself on a Wednesday.  I checked my recent account
statements, which I hadn't really looked at for several months, and the
payroll deposits were no longer being credited on Wednesday but on Thursday.

Have you checked your statements lately?

Bob

  I noticed the same effect (Thursday deposits) as Bob Fleischer,
  starting some number of months ago.

                                   Atlant

I had heard some number of years ago that BayBanks was "mounting the
DEC payroll tape" on Wednesday to get the float on the money a day early,
and that when DEC found out, told them to do it right, or they would
stop doing auto-deposit to BayBank.  Considering the number of accounts
that BayBanks would lose (10's of thousands?), they supposedly stopped
screwing around.

Maybe the same thing happenned again?
				/AHM

    We just had something similar to us with this week's paychecks.
    We went in on Thursday around 1:00 to check on our bank balance,
    and were told that DEC hadn't gotten the tape to them yet for the
    automatic deposits.   Unfortunately, our deposits didn't come through
    until today!! (Friday)
    
    When I do my monthly statements, I've noticed that the withdrawals
    are always done first before the deposits.  It's always been done
    that way... and it stinks!  *sigh*
    
    					*** Kristy ***

        
        We as a family have several accounts with the DCU as well
        as one account in a bank.  I will now list some of the
        problems we have had:
        
        1.  My wife and I have a checking account at Souhegan in
        N.H. which gets the automatic deposit.  My wife went to
        cash a check one Friday morning and found that the
        deposit had not been made.  The bank's story was that
        apparently quite often the tape is not ready for the
        courier so then the tape does not get picked up until the
        next time the courier gets there.  In this particular
        case, the money wasn't available to my wife until
        Saturday.  I remember back when they presented the option
        of getting direct deposit and one of the insentives to go
        along with this direct deposit was that the money was
        actually deposited on Wednesday night and so you could
        write a check Wednesday night if you wanted to.  At least
        you were assured that the money was there on Thursday
        morning.  Does anyone else remember being told that line?
        
        2.  My brother who is a trucker has an account with the
        DCU with only his name on it.  I deposit his checks
        weekly into his savings account.  His account number is
        my badge number with a prefix in front of it.  My wife
        also has her own account with my badge number and a
        different prefix.  You guessed it -- his money went into
        my wife's account!!!  He was not thrilled; my wife was!!
        
        3.  Total inconsistency abounds -- one week when I
        deposit my brothers money (by the way we use a stamp to
        endorse the check with my brothers name on it and the
        proper DCU account number with the -S1 to signify the
        savings account) they may give me a sealed envelope with
        the transaction inside; one week they may just mail the
        transaction slip to my brother and then in another week
        they may just hand me the slip of paper with the
        transaction on it for me to read.  Sometimes they don't
        put the money into the savings but rather put it into the
        checking account (unless, of course, they've put it into
        my wife's account!!)
        
        4.  Both my wife and my brother had trouble getting a
        photocopy of a check for proof of payment.  DCU's policy
        is that if it is needed for proof of payment they will
        not charge for the copy.  Not only did they charge both
        my brother and my wife but they had to go to great
        lengths to call up headquarters and tell them they had to
        take the charge away  (the local branch tells us we don't
        pay for these photocopies but headquarters charge
        anyway).  One wonders just how many people end up paying
        this charge where they shouldn't be required to pay it.
        Not to mention the fact that it takes about 3 weeks to
        get the photocopy you need.  Actually, it took more
        than one phone call to get those copies for both my wife
        and brother.
        
        5.  My wife would use her deposit slip from the back
        of her checkbook and she endorsed the check with her
        account number that appears on the bottom of her check
        (just like in the real world of checking accounts at
        banks).  The DCU tellers certainly don't like that and
        can't seem to cope with that method.  Why is that?  That
        is in fact the account number -- why are those numbers on
        the checks and deposit slips if they are not the account
        number?  My wife continually tries to do this -- she can
        get quite presistent when she thinks she is correct.
        
        6.  Does my wife exist on our joint DCU account? When the 
        statement arrives at our house the only name on the whole
        statement is mine.  She really loves that!!
        
        7.  On the same theme as No. 6 -- when we used the DCU
        for our house mortgage the DCU refused to acknowledge that
        my wife does exist until it came time to sign papers.
        

    Regarding 232.8, point 6: DCU does not believe in joint accounts,
    period.  In a joint account, all "members" have equal rights and
    status.  DCU allows you to add additional people as being authorized
    to use your account, and may even print their name on the check,
    but to them, it's still your account only.
    
    				Steve

i used to have an account at baybank.  when a dec deposit showed up
late i inquired about it with both baybank and the dec treasurer.
from the dec treasurer i got the exact date and time it was delivered.
from baybank i got the runaround.
both agreed on one thing: there is a "clearinghouse" that accepts tapes
from firms with autodeposit and makes tapes for banks.
if the dec tape was late, all deposits at all banks would be late.
in this case, i'll bet on dec.
all this was long ago, probaly about 1979.

after about 30 years of banking, in three states, seven cities, 
and about 12-15 banks, few banks have ben as good as dcu.
but then, i've not had some of the troubles that some of the noters had.

when esablishing an account i usually ask when the deposits and checks
are posted.  the answer has always been that the batch runs do deposits
first.  once, and i do not remember which bank, the statement seemed to
indicate they were posted last. i asked about it and was told that the
balance test at the end of the day was the only one that triggered a charge
and the end of day balance was used for the average and minimum balance
calculations.  i was never in a position to determine if that was true.

>    Regarding 232.8, point 6: DCU does not believe in joint accounts,
>    period.  In a joint account, all "members" have equal rights and
>    status.  DCU allows you to add additional people as being authorized
>    to use your account, and may even print their name on the check,
>    but to them, it's still your account only.
    

        The DCU agreement as printed on the application for
        membership states:
        
        I (we) apply for membership in the Digital Employees'
        Federal Credis Union (DCU).  I (we) are in the field of
        membership and agree to follow the by-laws of DCU.
        
        I (we) authorize DCU to recognize any of the signatures
        on the opposite side of the card as equal owners of the
        share account(s) excluding the share draft account with
        equal reghts to make deposits, withdrawals and with
        rights of survivorship.

        .....
        
        Then on the back is a place for the "prime member" to sign
        and a place for the "joint member" to sign.
        
        The application for checking also has a place for the
        the "joint owner" to sign.
        
        This looks to me like the DCU recognizes Joint Owners.
        
                                                Ken
        

RE < Note 232.11 by ZEPPO::KUSCHER "Ken Kuscher" >

>>    Regarding 232.8, point 6: DCU does not believe in joint accounts,
>>    period.  In a joint account, all "members" have equal rights and
>>    status.  DCU allows you to add additional people as being authorized
>>    to use your account, and may even print their name on the check,
>>    but to them, it's still your account only.
    
>     [info on places where "joint owner" signs on application...]
>        This looks to me like the DCU recognizes Joint Owners.
        
      Yes, but the account is under one of the joint owners' badge
      number, hence, it is technically that person's account (I assume).
      When my Significant Other (also a DEC employee) and I opened a joint 
      checking account, we had to do it under my badge number because he 
      already had a checking account under his badge number.  Friends of ours,
      a married couple and both DEC employees, cannot have a joint account at 
      DCU because they each have their own checking accounts.  A joint account
      at DCU can't have a completely different number because DCU accounts go 
      by badge numbers...

							-- Nina

RE < 232.12 >
        
It is possible to have two checking accounts. My significant other and I
have 3 accounts between us - his, mine, and ours. The joint account is a 
2nd account under one of our badge numbers, with some leading (or following,
I forget) digits to distinguish it.

reg

Re .12, .13

Sounds like the folks at the DCU would rather you conformed to the design
of their system (which assumes that DEC couples will not exist, or at least
will not want joint accounts), but if you complain loud and long enough,
they will indeed find a way for the system to accommodate reality.

Other examples are the fact that both PCS (prescription card) and HCS (bulk
prescription filling by mail) -- parts of our health benefits -- expect
all dependents of an employee to share the same last name.

Bob

    re:.10 & .7
    
    Since I work for the data center that processes the payroll
    every week, I can tell you that the deposit information for
    all banks is completed *well* before midnight on Tuesday
    (barring a really bad problem --- unfortunately, some really
    bad problems occurred in early December). The window is
    such that the Feds have the info by early Wednesday morning.
    
    There have even been times when I have personally delivered
    deposit tapes to a bank in Boston on Tuesday night.
    
    --- jerry

    	Pay once per month!  Paying once per week is outrageous, not
    to mention a waste of time/effort.  I know the Mass. law, change
    it...
    
    KMP
    
    

          I have.  Trying to live until the end of the month, even with
          a good salary, is trying at times.  I like the once-per-week
          system.

    When I first moved to New Hampshire I was paid once a month.  The
    first check didn't come until the end of the second month, of course--
    just like with weekly paychecks, you are paid for the previous
    period's work.  My wife was still in California, living on what
    was left of our bank account while finishing school, so I didn't
    eat much the first 6 weeks!
        John Sauter

    	Being paid once per month then isnt the real problem, what is
    is controlling the spending.  Gees, we havent been paid since 19
    December and there's no problem (that's being mentioned) that I
    can see.  Some of my bills are quarterly, and one utility bill is
    twice yearly.  Actually, getting paid once per quarter would be
    even better!!  One has exactly the same amount of money, you know.
    
    KMP (probably we'll get paid next week!!!)
    
    

     RE: < Note 232.16 by BISTRO::PATTERSON >
>                            -< ya need a new law! >-

>    	Pay once per month!  Paying once per week is outrageous, not
>    to mention a waste of time/effort.  I know the Mass. law, change
>    it...
    
     If I  interpret your comment correctly, you are telling us that Mass
     law either REQUIRES  payment  weekly,  or  PROHIBITS  payment  on  a
     monthly basis.
     
     If you are actually telling me this, you are WRONG!
    
     I once worked for  Raytheon  (in  Waltham,  MASS)  and  we were paid
     MONTHLY (and due to their  policy of early December checks, you wait
     6 WEEKS for the January check),  and that hasn't changed.  Only last
     week I was discussing this issue with  a  DECcie  whose Husband is a
     CURRENT Raytheon employee.
     
     My Wife was a teacher in a MASS school system for three years, prior
     to joining DEC.  She was paid every TWO weeks.   We have a number of
     friends  who  are still teaching school and they are all paid  every
     TWO weeks!
     
     Sorry,  there  is  NO  LAW  in MASS which specifies any specific pay
     period, just that you eventually get paid!
     
     The weekly payroll is a tremendously costly program, but it  is KO's
     edict.  I suspect that when someone else takes over the "helm" (when
     KO retires, and NO I am not speculating when that may be), that will
     probably change  (I  will speculate that it would probably change to
     every two weeks).
     
     Until you try  living  on  a  monthly check, you wouldn't understand
     what it is like!!    I lived like that for 18 months and let me tell
     you that "cash flow" is  the  real issue.  My policy is to pay bills
     ~20 days after receipt, and almost  all  my  bills are monthly (only
     water bill, real estate tax, rubbish pickup,  insurance payments are
     less frequent than monthly).

     re .20:
     
     > there  is  NO  LAW  in MASS which specifies any specific pay period
     
     I'm not too sure about that, Len.  I had thought that some people are
     required to be paid weekly, and within 5 or 6 days of the last day of
     the week.  Mostly, the jobs that fall under this law are paid as
     hourly or piece-work wages.  Jobs that are classified as
     'professional', which are generally salaried, would be exempt from
     this law. 
     
     --Don

I was paid monthly before coming to work for DEC 12 years ago.  Over the six
years in my previous job, I got used to it and liked it.

For the entire twelve years I've been at DEC I have stuffed my pay stubs away
until the end of the month, at which time I write one deposit in my checkbook
for the full month's pay.  Months with five Thursdays are especially nice,
though sometimes I shove that paycheck into savings.

If you prefer monthly checks, you can do this, too.  (And if you run short in
any particular month, you don't have to ask anyone but yourself for an advance
on part of next month's pay.)

/john

    I was paid monthly when I worked at the University of Rochester,
    NY.  I believe there was a law in NY specifying pay frequency for
    non-exempt personnel, because the secretaries were paid bi-weekly.
    It was a bit bizzare, since we were paid on the (I think) 26th,
    and they were paid every other Friday.  Sometimes the two days would
    match up and all hell broke out in payroll.
    
    Burns
    

    	Yea, paying monthly is ok.  There could still be less strain
    by paying quarterly.  One place I lived all bills (except rent)
    were due quarterly.  Rent was a pain...always had to drive down
    and pay in cash (not check).  
    
    	We just got our paystubs today...1st ones since 19 December,
    saves a lot of hastle with bank acounts, etc.
    
    KMP
    
    

I've been paid weekly, fortnightly, and monthly in Mass! (no, not all
at Digital). The only legal impact I could see was that there were certain
notices which had to be given to an employee (dismissal, for example) which
were required to be given n pay periods in advance (where n was a small 
number). So, if you're paid by the week, they give you two weeks notice;
if you're paid by the month, they give you two months notice. 

		Nigel

    Re: Being Paid Monthly
    
    	There is an unspoken implication here that for a monthly pay
    	schedule to work implies that you have 1 month's pay ALWAYS
    	in the bank. That way you always have the money for whatever
    	bills hit you on a monthly basis.
    
    	All the problems I've ever seen with when one gets paid have
    	to do with how one budgets their money. My motto is always
    	live one pay period in advance. If you get paid every week,
    	then have one week's pay ALWAYS in the bank, etc.
    
    	If this method is followed, you never notice how often you get
    	paid. (Of course, sometimes it is difficult to get to the point
    	where you HAVE a month's pay in the bank!!)
    
    							Warren
    

    
    I find it easier to budget my weekly paychecks as opposed to monthly
    ones. 5 weeks in a month can be nice. 
    
    Getting back on track:
    
    Starting last summer, I found that random withdrawals for $100/-
    each were being made from my saving account. These withdrawals were
    then corrected the next day. When I asked DCU about this, I was
    told that they had converted to a new system, which seemed to have
    more bugs than they expected. I also heard from one of the tellers
    (they all look alike) that DCU bought a new system, because the
    cost of each ATM of the old system was too expensive. Other than
    this my experience with DCU had always been pretty good. Some of
    their services I found to be better than my bank (where I have an
    account). For example, I once withdrew most of my money when I went
    on an extended vacation. The DCU teller told me what checks had
    cleared since my last statement without any trouble. Of course I
    went when there was noone waiting to use DCU. When I asked my bank,
    for the same service, I was told that they would take a minimum
    of 3 days at $30/hr for any time spent on this "problem".
    
    BTW does anyone remember the article in Reader's Digest from 1986
    which explained the differences between Banks, Credit Unions, Savings
    and Loans Institutions, etc. I would like a copy if anyone can find
    it.
    
    					
    

    Budget?  Huh?
    

RE: .-2 Differences between different bank types

I have looked into this a little.  A Credit Union can not do any commercial 
work, which is why my investment club (a partnership) can not get an account 
with DCU.  

A regular bank (such as BayBanks) can not pay interest on a commercial 
account.  The fees they charge for commercial checking accounts are downright 
usurious - $100 a year for the account I looked at.  Hudson Savings Bank has 
no charges other than printing checks as long as the balance stays above $100, 
and they pay 5.25% interest!  Such a deal!

FYI: Bay Banks charges $7 a month for a commercial checking account, plus $.20
a check, plus $.65 per deposit, plus $.07 per item deposited.  My personal DCU
account never looked so good! 

cbs

	u-su'ry (yoo'zhe-ree), n.  1.  The lending of money at an
	exorbitant rate of interest.  2.  Such an excessive rate of
	interest.  --- u-su'ri-ous adj.