Conference 7.286::digital

    This is a fairly common problem in SWR in which I've never heard
    of any employee getting any extra money.  To add insult to injury
    is the fact that the customer can be made to pay the shift differental
    based on the standard terms and conditions.
    
    The usual answer from SWR management is that you are a professional
    paid by the year and not the hour and, besides, there's no way to
    put you in for extra pay.  I've never tried it myself even though
    I work many strange hours.  I've seen and heard of others who have
    tried  to get the shift premium and all have failed.
    
    I do believe that the CSC's now do receive some sort of shift premium
    but that came after a lot of bitter fighting.
    
    SWR management is judged almost totally by meeting their profit
    margins and expect you worker bees to help them achieve the highest
    possible margins.  
    
    If you're REALLY good then you will, of course, win an excellence
    award.  Of course, that depends a lot on your district/region meeting
    their margin goals.
    
    Don

    It may also depend whether you're a Wage Class 4 or Wage Class 3.
    If you're a Software Specialist I (which I believe is Wage Class
    3) you've probably got a shot at it.  Check with personnel.
    
    I'm sure (as Don said in -.1) that if you're Wage Class 4, then
    you're out of luck.

    It seems reasonable that the corporation (represented by your local
    Software Services management) ought to be able to extract through
    negotiations with the customers the usual uplift for the strange hours.
    
    It also seems reasonable that your local Software Services management
    ought to allow you liberal expenses for meals and such, and offer
    other incentives for volunteering to take such assignments.
    
    Frankly, though, the "high effort - no reward" scenario occurs so often
    to Software Specialists, that it's another one of those direct
    contributors to the high turnover Software Services constantly
    experiences.

                I'm not an expert here, but it is my understanding that 
        Wage Class 4 is ALSO eligable for shift premium. I once had a 
        brief discussion with my manager about this subject as the 
        situation looked like it was about to come up (it turned out 
        that it didn't so I still can't give real first hand info). His 
        response was in effect, "of course you would be eligable!"
                
                /s/     Bob

            The CSC *does* give shift premiums to both Wage
        Class 3 and Wage Class 4 workers (if the shift lasts
        at least a week.)  Currently, most of the shift workers
        are in groups that maintain 24 x 7 operations -- but in
        these groups, even the managers have been known to get
        shift premiums when they cycle through 2nd shift.
    
            I'm assuming that this is because our business *requires*
        the regular services of Wage Class 3 and 4 employees at odd
        hours -- including managers -- and that since it's a permanent
        situation, it has been given more attention and the "fair" compen-
        sation practice has become well-established.

            It seems that the "exceptions" are harder to deal with...

                                                        Suzanne... :-)
                                                      (CSC/Colo Spgs)
    
    

        What "high turnover" Pat's referring  to  in  .3  beats  me.
        Everyone  knows SWS has low turnover and we LIKE to work all
        those extra hours for free.  ;'}

        I do believe that WC 4 folks are eligible for  the  premium,
        it's  not  the  same as OT which WC 4 folks are NOT eligible
        for.  And I know of one case in our district in the  past  6
        years  in  which  a specialist got it.  Of course, I know of
        oodles of cases during the same period for which no  premium
        was  offered.   For example a large project with a full unit
        which worked 6 and 7 days/week  for  12-18  hour  days.   No
        premium there.

        I think it's a case of (1) you must be asked to work FOR  AN
        EXTENDED  PERIOD  (whatever that means, more than a week for
        sure) at those hours and (2) you must  raise  the  roof  and
        insist on the premium (career limiting decision time).

        Your case will be much easier if your time is  being  billed
        at  the  uplifted rates.  Remember the "first rule", we will
        do the "right" thing by our clients, and by our employees.

        Besides,  the  only  way  the  practice  of  expecting   the
        "impossible"  from  SWS folks will be controlled is by cost.
        And if family is to be  sacrificed,  there  should  be  some
        compensation,  although  I'm  not advocating dollars make up
        for time with family.  But they don't hurt.

I also know of a WC 4 engineering employee getting shift differential.

Here we have a policy which is actually supposed to protect all employees
from a decision by management to require strange working hours.

It seems like any manager who doesn't make a reasonable effort to comply
with the policy should be disciplined.

Especially since the shift differential we charge the customer is quite a
bit more than what would be paid to the employee, thus increasing profits.

/john

[A former SWS whose wife got fed up with "putting in that extra effort"
 even though she did get flown to DC for a dinner with Dave Creed and
 friends the first year the excellence awards were given.]

My wife is a WC4 engineer in HL, and she got 10% shift differential when
she had to work 2nd shift for several months a couple of years ago.
In fact, she had to go see personnel two weeks after she got back on 1st
shift to stop it - they continued to pay her at 110%.

On the other hand, much of the work on Tops-10 and Tops-20 has been
done at night in the past, because there are a limited number of KL
processors which can be used stand-alone to debug the monitor.  The
mere fact that a WC 4 developer prefers to work 3rd shift, rather than
compete for scarce resources during 1st shift, is unlikely to suffice to
get them shift differential.  "Needs to work 2nd or 3rd shift" might even
be in their job descriptions.  Whether a developer who refused to work
nights could successfully extend their schedule to account for scarce
machines during 1st shift, and not be regarded as having poor performance
in their review, I don't know.  During a period when timesharing resources
were too tight for timely Bliss-10 compiles, us compiler folk toyed
with the idea of going on second shift.  I think we would have gotten shift
differential - if management couldn't provide sufficient development
resources to get the job done easily, it wasn't going to cheap out on
doing things the hard way.


Unless the SWS person is responsible for writing up the bill for the
customer, it should not be their problem to verify that they were charging
the night rate in order to qualify for shift differential.  I don't
recall reading something in Personnel Policies and Procedures which says
"except SWS, who can only get differential if the customer was billed
properly".  It's a nice idea before the fact, since we all work for
Digital, but it doesn't hold up as an excuse after the fact.

Re .7:

I assume that the need to pay an employee shift differential would give a
manager second thoughts before authorizing them to work nights.  However,
I also believe the reason for the policy is to properly compensate people
for working weird hours, not to try and keep management from assigning
night work.
				/AHM

    The 'issues' seem to be the following:
    
    	1.	duration of off-shift work
    
    	2.	prior planning/scheduling
    
    	3.	'official' request vs. voluntary
    
    The cases I have seen where the differential HAS been paid have
    all been cases where the work was:
    
    	1.	for at least two weeks, minumum
    
    	2.	planned and scheduled for off shift
    
    	3.	at customer/management request
    
    'Casual' off-shift work, like our 'casual' 60 hour weeks, is NOT
    paid, but is compensated in 'higher' rewards....
    
    	-Barry-
    

     When I  was  hired  by  DEC,  my  first  position was as a 3rd shift
     Supervisor (WC4).   I  was  paid  15%  shift  premium for the entire
     15-1/2 months I worked in  that  group.    [I  would  never  take  a
     back-shift job again for ANY premium!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]
     
     Ref: Personnel Polices and Procedures, Sect. 3.11, Dated 17 Aug 84.
     
                                 "SHIFT PREMIUM"
                                 
     "Employees who are classified  permanent  full  time, permanent part
     time, or full time temporary are eligible for shift premium if they: 
     
        o are assigned to the  second or third shift for ONE FULL WEEK OR
          MORE (emphasis mine)
          
          or
          
          are assigned to a shift where  they rotate from first to second
          to third on a regularly scheduled basis  within  thirty days or
          less
          
                                       and
                                       
        o work six consecutive hours within the appropriate time frames:
        
          TIME FRAME                                            PREMIUM
          
          Second -- 3:00 PM - 12:00 Midnight                      10%
          Third -- 12:00 Midnight - 8:00 AM                       15%
          Rotating                                                15%"
          

     "ADMINISTRATION
      
        When an employee changes a shift for one week or longer, the cost
        center manager MUST forward a shift premium form to Payroll, with
        a copy to the personnel representative." (emphasis mine)    
        

     According  to  the PPP, it is NOT an option, but  requires  positive
     action  on  the  part  of  the  manager.   Violation of this  policy
     (knowingly), if elevated  to  the  appropriate  level,  could  cause
     trouble for the errant  manager (that's what Open Door Policy is all
     about).

RE: .10     

  > Violation of this  policy (knowingly), if elevated  to  the
  > appropriate  level,  could  cause trouble for the errant  manager
  > (that's what Open Door Policy is all about). 
    
    Yep, but be prepared for the possibility of severely limiting your
    career by escalating this and getting the errant manager in trouble.
    I'm not saying that's the way it SHOULD be, I'm just saying that's
    the way it WOULD be.  There's little doubt in my mind that it would
    be interpreted as a lack of commitment and perceived quite negatively.
    
    						(^:	Positive Pat	:^)

    I believe that our situation meets all the requirements to qualify
    for the shift premium.
    
    Our project team initially worked 2nd shift at our office for about
    4-6 weeks due to lack of system resources (lots of compiles, etc)
    during daytime hours. This was more or less by mutual consent of
    the programmers.
    
    But we were TOLD to go on 2nd shift at the customer site by management
    (at the customer's request), and 2nd shift was the only time open,
    since they used the systems for production during 8-4. We arrived
    at 3:30, booted our pack at 4 pm, and very often didn't get back
    home until at least 1:30 to 2:30 am. This lasted at least 8 weeks,
    I think more like 12.
    
    I certainly am not out to burn the manager I had at that time -
    I just think we all put out a great deal of effort with minimal
    griping, and that since it is DEC policy, we are entitled to the
    $$$. ( I could certainly use the extra hundreds of dollars right
    now!)

    I have talked to my current manager about this, and he said go for
    it. I am also talking to our regional personnel office, and will
    be talking to district finance, too. I hope it all works out for
    us.
    
    Al
    

    I was a SWS and pulled about 4-500 overtime hours the year in Software
    Services.  These hours were billed against fixed-price projects.
    For all of us on these projects to claim overtime/shift premium would 
    have killed not only the project profit and risk margin, but would
    made the project a money losing proposition.
    
    This might be fine with a individual, but projects are rated like
    people and your performance rating isn't going to diverge much
    from your project ratings.  This is the software services game -
    the reason people burn out and split.
    
    I've never worked on a project that wasn't either badly estimated
    or properly estimated and had the hours slashed 50% to bring it
    into a price range the customer could afford.  I've never worked
    on a project that didn't have to be "saved" by one or more specialist
    working 18-22 hour days for stretches.  

    The last project I worked on as a SWS required five 90+ hour coding
    weeks on-site to complete.  Turnover, indeed, rollover is more like
    it.
    
    Joe H.

    re: .13--I'm glad I don't work in SWS.  I expect SWS is glad, too,
    because I wouldn't work under those conditions.
        John Sauter

The way I read the policy, if a salaried employee needs to work the extra hours
to get the job done, there's no differential paid.  The differential would only
be paid if management actually MOVES the person from first shift to second or
third shift.

/john

    The problem described in .13 is characteristic of "kill the messenger"
    mentality in Software Services.
    
    The "right" people to hold accountable are the ones who created the
    project estimate, not the people who discover after the fact that the
    project locks DEC into a loss.  Often, the project members "buy into" a
    schedule before they themselves are aware of what the customer wants. 
    
    The people designated to create and approve this estimates have
    highly mobile careers while the project teams are committed to the
    customer for the life of the project  Clearly when it comes time
    to apportion blame the stationary target is easier to hit than the
    moving target.
    
    In Software Engineering are the people who plan and budget as far    
    removed from the actual teams that do the work?

Re .16:

In my experience in Software Engineering, the project leader (who is
a designated developer in the project team) writes most of the Engineering-
originated documents, including the Component Software Product
Specification (design), and the Project Plan (schedule and manpower
requirements).  Someone outside the team generally writes the Business
Plan, which compares estimated costs and benefits.

When the design has been partitioned into tasks and developers have
been assigned to the tasks, they then devise time estimates which go into
the schedule.  (The projects I've been on have traditionally had the
entire group use "Delphi" techniques during an off site woods meeting
to try and bracket the task estimates, although the developer assigned
to the task has the final say on the number.  The developers commit to
the schedule when Phase 1 is passed.  Progress is tracked by the project
leader and supervisor with PERT(, Gantt?) and rate charts, and they
pass progress reports up the management chain every 4 to 6 weeks.

All in all, the development team, (particularly the project leader),
as well as the supervisor, is responsible for attaining the schedule
goals.  As long as the team delivers what was promised, when it was
promised, actual revenue and cost figures are infrequently discussed,
(if they are discussed at all).

This is somewhat idealized, and also reflects the practices I have observed
looking up from the bottom of the management tree in a backwater of
Software Engineering.  Other teams may have different practices, and
worry about the $$$ to a different degree.
				/AHM

    re .13:
    
    That is *not* the way projects are done in our District.  Obviously,
    something is wrong with the folks who are estimating your projects
    efforts.  And you *NEVER* cut hours to reduce the price.  If you
    want to cut the price, you cut the price.  It still takes just as
    long to do the work.
    
    Dave Jennings - Project Manager and Project Leader of 3 on-time,
    under-budget projects that *didn't* kill the project members

    Project planning, work efforts, methodology, etc. may be discussed
    in the PSS (Professional Software Services) NOTESfile which is
    dedicated to that subject.  That file is:
    
    	SAHQ::PSS
    
    re: .13
    
    	'estimates cut by management/sales to get the price down'
    
    That is NOT what SWS personnel are taught in any of the Project
    Management workshops/courses.  Estimating and pricing are two
    distinctly different issues.  In this Region (whoops - Area) pricing
    is a MANAGEMENT decision based on the estimates provided by technical
    people (SWS Project Leaders).
    
    	'under estimated...'
    
    This is usually an issue of scope control.  The estimates made are,
    for the most part, good estimates based on an understanding of what
    has to be done.  If the scope of what is being done changes WITHOUT
    communication and re-estimation, or if there are tasks to be done
    that are left out of the estimate, then the project will obviously
    take longer /team work harder/ then estimated.

    re: .16
    
    	'left around to take the blame...'
    
    The Project Leaders who plan and sign-off on project estimates are the
    ones who usually have the same role for project delivery.  The things
    that individual project members are 'blamed for' is for NOT identifying
    problems, potential slips, reporting true status, asking for help,
    etc. - 'programmer optimism'.  ENLIGHTENED management does not look
    at each individual actual vs. estimate on the project plan, but
    rather the overall performance!

    
    I suggest the discussion of project issues to move to SAHQ::PSS.
    The participants in that file are knowledgable and verbal on those
    subjects.
    
    	-Barry-
    
    Barry Milberg
    Southern Area Senior Project Consultant
    ACC (Area Consulting Coordinator)
    

    re .19:
    
    I just heard Barry give a talk on this subject. It was very well
    done, and he makes these points to all the SWS and managers with
    whom he works. The field has implemented very formal review procedures
    on project quotes. The key is good/written expectation setting up
    front with the prospect, followed by careful and formal revision
    control on the specifications.

    Barry, you can't criticize us for not knowing about your conference
    when you don't tell us about it: as in TLE::EASYNET_CONFERENCES
    where _all_ conferences that are intended to have the participation
    of all Digital employees are supposed to be announced.

    Sorry Pat, that was NOT meant to be a 'criticism', just information.
    
    The announcement wasn't put in since there was a question of what
    node we would be on, we have moved it twice.  Now that it looks
    like we have a semi-permanent 'home', we will announce.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    I'll happily continue the discussion in PSS, but wanted to say
    that 'slashed' was an inappropriate word, 'strategically revised'
    by people who were desperate for the business would probably be better
    and no one asked me (us) how long it would take.
    
    I know why I contributed to the turnover.
    
    Joe
    
    P.S. For definition purposes - 
         in engineering, money comes from where ever the products "bubble
         up" to; in SWS you can generally shake your money's hand and
         you both know it. 

Ahh Gi'day...

    SPR (South  Pacific Region) doesn't currently offer any service outside
    local  hours,  because of some major concerns with precedents being set
    on  overtime  and  shift  allowances.  However, to handle the different
    timezones, people are payed on-call allowances which are a pittance!

    However, I  and  a few other specialists (in a CSC type group) actually
    do  quite a bit of customer work outside normal hours and especially on
    weekends.  You  can beg for time in lieu, but usually if a whole day is
    involved, not for extra hours.

    Project problems  were  much  worse!  In  the earlier days, people were
    shifted  (halfway  through a project) onto the SWS pay scales (from the
    programmer  type scales), so that overtime wouldn't have to be payed (I
    don't  think  they  got  any  pay  adjustment) It just so happened that
    people were working some obsene hours at this time. 

    The manager  responsible  did  quite  well  out of it... Other problems
    persist but the statute of limitations hasn't yet expired :-)

    Our local Personnel office has determined that we are indeed eligible
    for the shift premium. The Personnel Rep has now passed the ball
    to my former manager for confirmation of the time spent on site.
    
    Once personnel has that info, they must figure out the pay scale
    at that time for the time allocated.
    
    I guess all I have to do is keep sitting on the old mgr. to send
    out the confirmation letter. Don't know if that'll be easy or hard
    to get.
    
    Keeping my fingers crossed.

    
    Al

    
Re:
    
================================================================================
Note 163.0            2nd Shift premium - back pay owed?              25 replies
GLORY::HULL "Al Hull @FAC"                           20 lines  27-JUL-1986 12:20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    .....
    
    About 2 years ago myself and about 6 other SWS specialists were forced
    to work 2nd shift at a customer site (+ 45 min. drive each way), full
    time (40+. more like 50 hrs/wk) for 8 weeks. We had no choice in the
    matter. The actual hours were like 3 pm to 2 am.
    
    Now, after reading the above entry, I believe DEC owes me back pay
    to the tune of 8 weeks shift premium. What's the concensus?
    
    ....
    
>>>>>    
    Final  resolution of this issue:  I got my money!!!  I had to fight
    a bit of an uphill battle until my CC Mgr stepped in and authorized
    Personnel to put in the order to Finance. I received a check for
    (8 wks * 10% of basepay/week) a couple weeks ago, based, of course,
    on the pay scale of 2 years ago.
    
    There IS hope now-a-days! My faith in the system has been restored.