Conference 7.286::digital

    I believe that any such restrictions only apply to WC II.  Check
    with Personnel.

        Lunch??? Usually out for 5-10 minutes to grab a sandwich and
        then back to my desk. ANd that is usually at about 3pm (Worst
        case, to date was lunch at 5pm)
        
        q
        

    RE: .0
    
>        Question?
>    
>    Is there a federal law restricting people from working through lunch?
>    
>   I'm curious because my department frequently sets up staff meetings
>    and other job tasks such as demos, presentations, development, etc
>    during lunch hour.
>    
>    Pete
>    
>    PS we don't get compensated for it with time off or money.
    

    Excuse me, but I thought that this file was restricted to DEC employees.
    You obviously work for a different company than I do.  Let's see,
    I remember on several occasions getting breakfast in the cafeteria
    on my way out after working "a little late".
    
    Jim Pappas

    RE: .0 thru .4
    
    Only grunts and very insecure people put up with that crap.
    A professional knows when to say NO.
    I have no sympathy for any of you. After all it's only a job and
    under the conditions you allude to, not much of one at that.
    Contrary to management propaganda, DEC is not Gods gift to the 
    working person.
    				Jack Previdi
    				Principal Quality Engineer
    				WOO/D80

    Well, atleast now we know why some customers complain about the quality
    of our products! I have pride in my work. Whether it takes me 20
    minutes or 20 weeks to deal with a project or an issue. 
    
    If you don't have pride in your work, you probably shouldn't take
    pride in your work.
    
    My hat's off to the people who are willing to extend themselves
    so BOTH they and the company can be proud -- but not arrogant. At
    the same time, working 20 hours a day, day in and day out, is unhealthy
    and, in the long term, unproductive.
    
    There has to be a balance between working to live and living to
    work. And it lies in the area of personal pride.
    
    If you can be proud referring to people who SOME OF THE TIME
    work all night to finish a project, meet a customer deadline or
    whatever -- as grunts and very insecure people, then it's clear
    atleast two of us have very different standards. 
    
    This company stands in for its employees. It IS management propoganda
    that we don't lay people off at the first sign of a downturn in
    earnings. It IS management propoganda that we have never had a layoff.
    It IS management propoganda that this company retrains rather than
    fires persons with no-longer needed skills. It IS management propoganda
    that we have grown more than 10 fold in as many years -- allowing the
    hardest working, most talented to rise with the growth of the company.
    It IS management 'propoganda' because it's true.
    
    Maybe you haven't been here long enough to see the facts behind
    the propoganda. 
    
    NO COMPANY IS GOD'S GIFT to the working stiff. Or to the middle
    manager, for that matter. God's gift to man is the ability to work,
    the ability to struggle, the ability to 'vote with their feet',
    the ability to go to work for someone else who will pay 30% more
    and may be out of business in 2 years -- or lay you off 'cause they
    can't manage their business properly.
             
    A professional knows what the real world is like....
             
    80 hour weeks should clearly be the exception, not the rule.
    People work nights and days on projects, sometimes 'cause it's needed
    and sometimes because the Digital culture allows people to do a
    variety of things...

    Do you take pride in your work? Do you ever work weekends? Evenings?
    Come in mornings? Work through lunch? Does that make you a grunt
    or an insecure person?

    RE .6
    Re-read .0 
    There is a big difference between putting in extra effort to get
    a job done right, and being constantly sh!t on.
    
    But then maybe marketing types are scatophiles.
    

    RE: .5
    
>    I have no sympathy for any of you. After all it's only a job and
>    under the conditions you allude to, not much of one at that.
>    Contrary to management propaganda, DEC is not Gods gift to the 
>    working person.
    
    Actually,  I feel sorry for you.
    
    I remember hearing once (long before I joined DEC) that you know you
    are in the right job if on Friday, you are glad the week is over and
    also, if by Monday, you can't wait for the week to start.  I remember
    thinking to myself "hogwash,  nobody looks forward to Monday. I have
    since realized that the "right jobs" do exist.  Anyone who has the
    attitude of (.5) must share my original belief.  I would stronly
    urge you to find the right job.  You would be amazed at the difference
    it makes.
    
    One time I left work and noticed a long line of cars leaving.  I
    thought that there was an accident or something.  Then I looked
    at the clock and noticed it was 5:00.  I couldn't believe it,  I
    had been working at DEC for several years and this was the first
    time I left at precisely 5:00.   I had worked late and left early
    but I never went home at precisely 5.  I could not stop thinking of all
    the people who sit and watch the clock for the correct time to leave.
    Doesn't everyone work when they are most creative?
    
    I do not consider myself a grunt or insecure.  Rather, I totally enjoy
    my job and give it my all.   It is an important part of my life that I
    would not do without.  While the money is important, it is hardly the
    most important part of working here.  There are times that I have been
    frustrated but these have been the exception not the rule.  Maybe
    Hudson MA. is the exception, but most people I work with share the same
    enthusiasm as myself.  Maybe this is the recipe to our success. 
    
    By the way, in refernce to your comment about being constantly sh!t
    on (re .7),  I have never had anyone tell me what time to work.
    It wasn't until that day in the parking lot that I realized anyone
    else had.
    
    Jim Pappas

    Read your own lips:
        
>    Only grunts and very insecure people put up with that crap.

    Working late on a project or to meet a deadline or to win a piece
    of business or to ensure that our products have the best quality
    engineering in them is crap?
    
    Asking or suggesting to employees that they come to a demo or
    discussion during lunch is crap?
    
    Management propaganda? I think that neither Ken nor any of our officers
    or directors would claim that Digital is God's gift to either mankind
    or the working person. What myths are you referring to? Or do you
    just like to take shots at Digital's unnamed (and imperfect but,
    in the long haul, impressive) management?
                                  
    Healthy criticism is fine. But the "Management Propaganda" statement
    doesn't fall in that category. It's the type of argument that doesn't
    help anything and provokes inappropriate sentiments on all sides.
                      
    Digital and its management has its flaws and its positive attributes.
    Claiming that Digital is God's gift to mankind is as unreflective
    as claiming that management "propaganda" purporting the same is
    incorrect.
    
    Flame on. But argument by invective or innuendo (or ad hominem attack)
    is stupid...and provokes more of the same.
                                 
    .5 is a less professional comment than .0!
    
        
    

re. !@#$%^

    	Ok, so somebody got upset and was honest about their feelings, that's
    not a signal for everyone to freak-out.  I agree with (145.8), sometimes a
    a new job is a good solution.  I'm about to switch jobs myself; luckily,
    I have that option.  Unfortunately, recent restrictions enforce the 2-
    year commitment on individual contributers (managers too?), and this
    rule may limit one's options.

        Don't worry (145.5), things will work out.  To quote George Paquin
    (again without permission - until later) regarding job dissatisfaction,
    "...there's something to be said for sticking around and slugging it out."
    This is, of course, assuming that George's first bit of quoted advice
    (re. note 88.15) has been followed beforehand.

    	I can attest to the fact that a good job can (and does) make all
    the difference; my first two years here went extremely well.  I was also
    extremely shocked by the 5:00 street party.  The great computer gods
    had their way with me recently however, I have been on the DEC morale
    skid row for several months now, but seem to be coming out of it quite
    well.  I'm looking forward to an excellent next two years!

    						-DAV0

    re (8?)

    And I though I was the only one suprised at that....
    
    Even when I'm not particularly happy with what I'm doing in my job,
    I've always found the cars lining up at 5pm amusing.  I had no idea
    that so many people sat watching their watches/clocks.
    
    - M

    People leave at the stroke of 5:00 because:
    
    1. They are in a car pool or vanpool
    
    2. They have to pick up the kids.
    
    3. They have to pick up their wife/husband/girl-/boy-/friend.
    
    4. They have to go to the grocery store, the doctor, or the dentist.
    
    5. They have to let the dog out before it messes on the floor.
                                                          
    6. They've been at work since 6:30 am and feel tired.
    
    7. Their customers, work partners, supervisors, etc. all go home
    at 5:00 and they can't do productive work after that.
    
    -bs
    

	Wanna know why some employees leave promptly at 5:00?
    Because their Group Manager insists on clockwatching!  This is
    the text of a memo distributed last summer to a certain building's
    inhabitants, somewhere near Maynard:

<begin forwarded memo>
Please communicate this message to each of your employees at
your next one on one meeting. Thank you.

It has been strongly pointed out to me that the working hours for this 
particular facility are from 08:15 to 17:00 with 45 minutes for lunch. 
Now, we all know that their are many dedicated people here who work 
much more then the required 40 hours per week. We also know that many 
of the "less dedicated "ones arrive around 9 and depart early to make 
up for it. I request that you all cause that to cease and desist. 
I took a short look at the parking lot at 08:15 this morning and found 
it to be 2/3rds empty or 1/3rd full depending on how you want to look 
at it. The corporate officers who often use the board room, look at it 
as the former, not the latter. 
In particular, I am requesting that all managers be here on time and 
work their full hours. That people who are abusing the system be 
warned to knock it off, informally at first then formally, if 
required. This will never work unless we and our direct reports set 
the example. Please help me to cure the problem, or additional actions 
will have to be taken that we will all dislike. I simply don't intend 
to be chastized about this again, particurally by those who use the 
board room.
Thanks in advance, Haskell.

    re: .14
    
    Fred, would you mind identifying the site?  I want to make darn
    sure I don't waste my time looking for a job there!
    
    	- Jerry
    

Sounds like VRO to me.
    

Re: 	.11 <Unprofessional my A!!>
.11>    In regards to .9...
.11>    Is it unprofessional to ask questions?
                           
    Absolutely not! 
                                                
    The .9 professionalism comment was meant as a perjorative to
    non-specific innuendos about Digital and its employees. Please don't
    read in any criticism of criticism, criticism of questions or other
    positions taken in the file. 

    To answer your question:

	Yes, there is a Federal law about lunch breaks for
    F/T workers.  

    Now I'm curious: what does it say?

    I called the state (Mass I forget which Dept). There is a federal
    law that says the employees who work 6 or more hours in a day have
    to have a half hour for lunch. It does not say when in the day and
    it can be longer, paid or unpaid. I don't think it applies to exempt 
    employees. This was a few weeks ago so I don't remeber all the details.

    		Alfred
    
    BTW, unless you are using a VT50 you should be able to type lowercase
    letters. Please try it.

    Personnel Policies and Procedures

    Section 6.40 Page 1 of 2
    12 Aug 83

    Policy:
    ======
    Work Schedules are established by appropriate managment
    at each Digital facility.

    Practice
    ========
    Regular Work Week
    -----------------
    In the US the following guidelines apply:

    o	5 days, 40 hr/week
    o	1/2 or 3/4 hour UNPAID lunch period, EXCLUSIVE of the
	40 hours above.
    o	a 10 minute PAID break during the first half of the shift,
	another 10 minute paid break in the second half of the shift.

    

    In addition, ( I Do not have the law handy but remember it from
    my high school days when looking for work) Federal law requires
    that here be a lunch break for F/T employees of ANY company.

    Re: .21
    
    Alfred,
    
    Don't forget the really streamlined video terminal that was rugged,
    too.
    
    Don  (^;

    I would interpret .0 ("we don't get compensated for it with time
    off...") to imply that the department involved is violating Federal
    law.
    
    I have been in situations where that practice occured occasionally, and
    had no problem with it.  But if it does occur frequently then that is a
    sign that the department management is doing their job poorly:  they
    are either abusing their employees (perhaps in hope of better
    productivity) by increasing the workload or they are unable to
    accomplish the normal workload within normal working hours.  My own
    response would be first to address the problem with "frequently"
    being expected to give up lunch, and then to boycott regular lunchhour
    activities.
    
    But beware!  If you can manage your own schedule then you really aren't
    losing your lunch break.  Since I am in a job where I can pretty much
    come and go as I deem appropriate for the job, the concept of 8 to 5
    with a routine lunchbreak is totally alien to me.  If you are in a
    similar situation, lunchtime presentations or demos (when people are
    likely to be free of other scheduled meetings, etc.) might be
    appropriate, you should then be expected to manage your own schedule
    so that you do now end up booked totally solid from 8 am to whenever
    (or if you do that's your choice).
    
    The real issue is how much control you have over your own schedule.
    If you have lots of flexibility other times and it's just that things
    get scheduled for what's usually considered lunchtime, then I don't
    think you've got anything to complain about.  On the other hand,
    if you've got that guy mentioned above sending memos about 1/3 empty
    parking lots, then maybe it's time to vote with your feet.  Or at
    least ask to have your working schedule judged based on your job
    performance not on the clock (consider that there are some special
    cases where jobs require schedules fixed by the clock, it's a matter
    of being reasonable).

    Wow, I just looked at the clock for the first time in awhile!  Time
    to amble off to visit my bed, to rest up before returning for the
    next installment of this adventure that's my job.
    what schedule?

        I recently received a fresh copy of "Digital and YOU", which I
        suspect was mailed to all U. S. employees.  It summarizes many
        personnel policies and procedures.  In particular, it states the
        "Lunch Periods" policy, as well as the "Breaks" policy.  The two
        policies are exactly as stated in an earlier reply -- 30 or 45
        minutes for lunch, and two paid 10-minute breaks. 
        
        If you did not get a copy of this in the mail, you should ask your
        PSA (Personnel Services Administrator) to get a copy for you.  It
        is literature order number EB-29051-86 (June 1986). 
        
        As for working through lunch, I do it some days, and take a longer
        lunch other days.  I often come in early, or work late. I like the
        work I do, and feel I get pretty fair pay in return (but I'm
        always willing to take more, and have never found that I get paid
        more than I can spend).  If you find that your boss schedules
        meetings during what should be the lunch hour, complain to him or
        her, and cite the Personnel Policies and Procedures. If your boss
        doesn't have a copy, or isn't familiar with the relevant policy,
        you've got a local problem that needs to be resolved.  You can
        resolve the problem for yourself by finding a new job, but that
        won't fix the problem, just avoid it.  Do the right thing.
        
        Tom

    re .13:
    
    and they have to pick up the car from the repair shop before it
    closes.