Conference 7.286::digital

          Chris                  
          
          	believe it or not the personnel policies are mostly
          there to protect you! For every person who makes the
          offer, there are several who cannot afford to.
          
          	The intent of the policy is to prevent managers
          *making* people pay their own relocation and thus saving
          their budgets!
          
          	So, although in your case it seems inappropriate
          that DEC forces you to accept relocation package or no
          relocation at all, it is for the general good.
          
          	You *could* leave DEC and rejoin in Colorado in
          6 months time of course.....but that means you hope the
          hiring restrictions will no longer be enforced. Don't
          count on it.
          
          -- A

    
     Thanks, but leaving would be far to risky for me.
    
    I kinda like this place :-)
    
    Chris
    

I have just been relocated to New York from Spitbrook.  I thought that
company paid relocation is a privilege rather than an automatic thing,
because it requires the incoming manager to sign an approval form.  If your
manager doesn't want to spend extra bucks, all he/she has to do is "do nothing"
or simply don't sign the relocation approval form.  DEC doesn't have a 
company policy that forces the manager to sign, does it?

    It's "kinda automatic", requiring appropriate signatures of course.
    It's not strict company policy, but in the interviewing I've done
    within Digital, I've always asked and the reaction has typically
    been "well of course we'll pick up relocation costs".
    
    I, for one, would not even consider a transfer (of any geographic
    distance) without relocation being paid for.
    
    Jon

    There is a policy of when relocation can be paid for and when it
    can't - it not always automatic, even if the new manager is willing
    to relocate you.
    
    I will be going through reloation in a month, and the one thing
    that surprised me is ALL the relocation cost gets added to your
    W2 at the end of the year, and o'course, they don't take the taxes
    out of it first...
    
    Also - can anyone explain in human terms just exactly what is this
    TAX ADDER they add to something at the end of the year??? Thanks!
    
    Gale
    
    

    The TAX ADDER is an approximation of the amount you'll need to cover
    the taxes that aren't otherwise taken out!  In other words, if your
    relocation results in $X amount being added to your W2, you get
    an additional $Y to cover the taxes.  I've relocated several times
    at company expense, and at the end of the calendar year in which
    your relocation occurred, you get an extra paycheck.  The gross
    amount of this paycheck is $Y, and guess what - it's all taken out
    in taxes!
    
    Of course, not all of the $X you get is taxable - about the same
    time as you get your W2 in the mail, you'll get another form which
    documents the various amounts paid to you and/or on your behalf
    for the relocation.  This form is layed out surprisingly in line
    with the IRS form 3903 (I think that's the number) which is what
    you file for claiming the relocation adjustment - note that relo-
    cation costs are adjustments to gross income, not deductions.
    
    Does that explain TAX ADDER?
    
    -paul

    Bugs that can occur in tax adders:
    
    1. 	"Having DEC pay for something (period)"
    
    is not quite the same thing as

        "Having DEC pay for something which it then pretends you paid for
    via increasing your gross salary except that it adds a funny amount to
    your W2 form so that you don't pay any extra taxes."
    
    The formula used may have been written with the best of intentions,
    but the keyword is "formula".  You may actually wind up paying more
    income tax that year, and there may be nothing you can do about
    it.  This lack of confidence comes from experience (see below).

    2. Unless you love paperwork, you will wind up getting someone else
    to do your taxes.  I did ours until our first relocation.  The tax
    adders + renting our house + depreciation etc. were too much for
    me.

    3. (true story) My wife and I were relocated in 1985.  When my taxes
    were done for 85, I "noticed" that we were paying 1.5x the amount of
    taxes over the year before!  The only thing that could have accounted
    for that would be if the tax adder amount was WRONG.  I called a few
    people, and sure enough the standard DEC formula did not take into
    account the fact that my wife works for DEC -- and it therefore didn't
    take into account her salary when computing the tax adder! 
    
    It is being fixed now.  But it is an inconvenience (we had to pay the
    taxes as is, and will now get a check to reimburse us for the extra
    tax.  This, then, affects the 1986 W2's, which have to be adjusted to
    account for this money which we should have gotten as a tax adder in
    85.  Follow that?).
    
    Disclaimer: the people involved were all very helpful.  The culprit
    is the notion of estimating additional tax burdens, which is apparently
    tough to do.
    
    4. Warning.  At least with my particular relocation package (temporary
    domestic relocating employee), DEC does *not* figure in your spouse's
    salary if they don't work for DEC!  (I.e., even if you call them.)
    Rationale is that DEC should be responsible only for the increased
    tax liability of *its* employees.  This reasoning is flawed (DEC
    already recognizes your spouse anyway, when it buys him/her plane
    tickets for the relocation) but that's the way it is.  So if your
    spouse works not(for DEC), you will pay more income tax.
    
    
    jdr

    	Hey, John, I bet you can't wait until they relocate you BACK!!!
    
    	Ed
    

    You DO understand, don't you, that the IRS *requires* the relocation
    expenses to be considered part of your gross income.  Digital isn't
    just being a bad guy adding that stuff in -- the company has no
    choice.  I agree it's totally ridiculous, but so is most of what
    the IRS does.
    
    						Pat

    re: .8:
    
    Sure Ed, you bet.  I am looking forward to it with real anticipation.
    "Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water ...
    it's...  it's...  RELOCATION PART II ...." 
    
    
    re: .9:
    
    Yeah, I understand all that, but it doesn't explain everything.  DEC is
    still partly at fault (not including spouse's salary unless you
    manually catch the error, not including spouse's salary if they don't
    work for DEC even though they are also being relocated).  Nice try. 

    P.s.  Also, if you read my previous note I believe that you will
    find that I did not blame all of this on DEC.
    
    The originator of these land mines isn't as important as that fact that
    they are there.  Relocation isn't simple, unless you like to run
    an increased risk of paying more than you should.

    
      WOW This question sparked quite a discusion! I really appreciate
    all the input here. I should clearify particularly for
    
    RE:4
         I am in somewhat of an underdog's situation Jon. I am trying
    to make, what equates to, quite a career jump here and was hoping
    to entice a prospective manager into taking a look at me. I thought
    that announcing that I would pay my own way out there would help
    out but this doesn't seem to be a viable way to get attention. :-)
    
         Thanks again for all the input I guess the old adage applys
    here:
               KEEP TRYING!
    
    Have a good day,
    
    Chris

    re several in the recent past:
    
    WAIT a minute!  Let's look at this another way:  First, assume that
    DEC did not pay anything.  The IRS allows you to deduct moving expenses
    up to a maximum (there may be several different maximums for different
    categories of expenses...I don't remember).
    

    Step 1:  Now, let us say that DEC steps in and says that they will pay for
    moving up to the deductible limit.  This would be reasonable.  I
    suspect that that is the maximum that DEC can deduct as a business
    expense as well (does anyone know?)  You are better off than you
    were in the initial hypothesis.
    
    Step 2:  Now, let us say that DEC says that they will pay for ALL
    moving expenses.  Then you have to count as income that portion
    which exceeds the IRS limits.  You are really still paying something,
    but you are better off than you were in step 1.
    
    Step 3:  DEC now says that they will pay you a bit extra just to
    make it a little more worth your while.  This extra is based on
    some magic formula which is related to how much some hypothetical
    employee would have to pay in taxes on the relocation income, but
    no representation is made that it will MATCH the extra amount you
    will be paying in taxes.  Not perfect, but you are still better
    off than you were in step 3.
    
    This is the existing situation.
    
    Step 4:  I suppose you could calculate your taxes both with and
    without the relocation and submit an expense voucher for the
    difference, but that would be in the next year, and that income
    would be taxable!
    
    -------------------------------------------
    
    Sorry for the wordiness, but my point is that DEC is REAL GOOD to
    us when we relocate.  I have relatives who have had to pay EVERYTHING
    to switch locations, even when they were transferred within the
    company!  We are L*U*C*K*Y!!
    
    Burns, a Digit and loving it
    
    
    

    Oh, yes and I did not mention the house-buying service that
    comes with the relocation package.  Would you believe that they
    paid within $100 of what we had our house listed for (not expected
    to sell it for, mind you!).
    
    L*U*C*K*Y
    
    Burns
    

    Lets see if I have this right... (now I inderstand why I only got
    a "B" in accounting 8-)...)
    
    If all my relocation added up to $150.00 (nice low sum for working
    principle)... and $100.00 of it was declared taxable, and the tax
    rate is 20%.... then... if I really made $500.00 for the whole year
    I would see this:
    
    	Real W2 would have said Gross Wages $500.00 [taxes withheld
                                                     on Federal side
    						     $75.00]
    
    	Real W2 after relocation will say Gross Wages  $600.00 
    
    
    	I will then get another phoney paycheck stub kinda like on December
        31st that says... Gross Amount $20.00, Net amount $0.00, Federal
    	Taxes $20.00
    
    	So the W2 on the Federal Tax side will say taxes withheld on 
    	Federal side $95.00
    

    And that is supposed to cover it??? Or should I go reduce my deductions
    just to be ont he safe side....
    
    Gale

    re .15:  That is the gist of it, though I think they may add in
    the entire $150 on your W-2, and you then declare it deductible
    on form 3xxx.
    
    BTW, DEC pays for an accountant to do your taxes for the FY when
    you relocate.
    
    Re reducing your dependents on the W-4:  I guess it depends on your
    situation.  If you can't afford to be surprised come April, the maybe
    you should. You should not depend on the tax adder paying ALL of the
    extra tax, although it will probably come close if you are not in a
    different tax bracket on your return than your DEC income alone would
    indicate. For a first approximation, look at your entire relocation
    amount. Then multiply that times your tax bracket.  That is the
    absolute maximum in extra taxes.  You can successively refine that by
    subtracting the amount the IRS allows you to deduct, etc. 
    
    Burns 
    

    When I was relocated to New England (*not* by DEC) all my expenses
    were paid including an extra months pay for "misc". There was no
    tax adder. Most of the "misc" money went to pay the extra tax bill.
    I also had help doing my taxes that year.
    
    All in all DECs plan seems *much* better then what I got.
    
    		Alfred

    Notice that there are at least 3 different relocation plans, in
    order of generousity:
    
    	1)  New hires
    
    	2)  Individual internal transferees
                        
    	3)  Group Moves

    New hires don't get the house buying service, the mortgage interest
    rate differential (Hah...mine went down anyway!), the $1000 misc.
    payment (I think), etc etc.  They do get the tax adder, however.
    
    I don't know what extra stuff group movees get--I did not read that
    section of PPP that carefully.
    
	Burns, 	A new hire movee almost 7 years ago, and an internal transfer
    		movee 3 months ago.

No, Gale, it works like this:

	If your salary is $500 with $100 withheld.
	Your DEC approved and paid relocation expenses are $150 (including
		amounts paid directly to the van lines, for example).
	Your DEC tax adder is an additional $30.

Then your W2 will show income of $680 and witholding of $130.

The fact that your tax deductable relocation expenses are $100 is between
you and the IRS.

/john

    it is also VERY important that you are reporting the correct marital
    status on your tax forms (W-4's) prior to the close of the calendar
    year, as that also impacts the caluculation of you tax adder.  if
    an error is made it can be difficult to fix. 
    
    irene
    
    
    p.s. note:  there are TWO fields for marital status in your personnel
    profile.  one is for personal data, the other is entered depending
    on how you complete your tax exemptions...they sometimes are different
    (i.e. some married folks withhold at the higher, single rate). 
    
    check with you PSA . 
    

    re: .13, .14:

    I'm not sure what your point is.  You seem to be saying that DEC
    is giving us alot of things, PLUS a little extra just to make it
    "worth our while" to relocate.
    
    There are two issues here.  One is what DEC will pay for.  The other is
    what the effect is on your W-2 form due to the tax adders (& correct or
    incorrect calculation thereof) added to your paycheck.  I personally
    don't have a "warm and fuzzy" feeling in my stomach that I can just
    trust the tax adder stuff to happen correctly. 
    
    Also: if you really want to try to calculate your taxes twice, once
    with the relocation stuff and once without, I have two words for
    you: "GOOD LUCK".  Another two words would be, "HAVE FUN".
    
    
    re: .16:
    
    I believe that if you check the policy closely you will see that
    DEC pays for a TAX CONSULTATION.  This is not the same thing as
    saying that DEC will pay for your TAX PREPARATION.
    
    When we relocated, we needed a tax consultation to understand how our
    relocation (& rental of house) would impact us, what kind of records to
    keep, etc.  DEC paid for that.  DEC didn't pay for our tax preparation
    because we had used up our "consultation reimbursement" already. 
    

    re: .13, .17:
    
    Whether you feel lucky or not depends on alot of things.  #1 seems to
    be what other kinds of stories you have heard.  The fact that you have
    a friend in another company whose move cost him more than yours did,
    etc. etc., is not very impressive.  Is the story anecdotal or not?  You
    don't really know.  Also, the personal situations may have been
    very different.

    I personally don't feel "L*U*C*K*Y" that DEC decides to pay for
    something that it wants me to do.  That's not lucky, that's common
    sense.  If you had the time, you could graph the # of people that
    would move depending upon how much of the expenses DEC picks up.
    As DEC picks up less, less people would be willing to move.  It's
    in the company's interests (for efficient "relocation of corporate
    resources") to pay for relocation.
    
    
    jdr

        Lucky or not, as far as I can tell (admittedly just "gut feel")
        I wound up getting part of the tax adder back when I made my
        move -- possibly because I was actually in a lower tax bracket
        than my Digital salary at the end of the taxable year would
        have suggested.
        
        Tom

    Thanks for all the help guys... I think I am going to drop my
    deductions, just in case... 
    
    I am trying to avoid having to pay taxes next year...the only case
    I know of where DEC paid for the move, the person did the taxes
    themselves, and ended up having to pay Uncle Sam a VERY large amount
    of money...that is what I don't want to do...
    
    	- Gale

    re .21:  My point in .13 was that in cases where we relocate by
    our own choice, I don't see any moral obligation on DEC's part to
    do any particular one of the options I listed.  In addition, DEC
    never claimed that the tax adder would unconditionally cover all
    tax liabilities.  They just say that the intent is to help out.
    They are doing what they say.  And of course I have no plans to
    figure out my taxes twice.  I was trying to point out this is the only way
    I know of for DEC to know exactly what tax liabilities were caused
    by the relocation, and it is rather absurd.
    
    Now before I get hopped all over for saying that DEC has no moral
    obligation to pay anything, let me add:
    
    	1.  If DEC forces someone to move (via a group move, a group
    being disbanded, etc) then I would say the do have a moral obligation
    to make sure the employee is not paying anything out of his own
    pocket.
    
    	2.  Of course the more DEC pays, the more people will move.
    If DEC wants someone to move, then it stands to reason that DEC
    should pay. I see that as a common sense issue, not a moral issue,
    as long as the employee is made aware from the beginning of how
    much it will cost him/her.
        
    And finally, I was feeling a bit peeved at the complainers having
    recently finished putting in relocation reimbursements after a move
    and continually saying to myself, "You've GOT to be kidding...they
    reimburse me for THAT too!"  Perhaps I should have put up a flame
    warning.
    
    Burns
    

    re .21 again:
    
    Personnel Policies and Procedures, 01-JAN-86, Section 5.05, page
    17:
    
    "OTHER REIMBURSED MOVING COSTS
    
    		...
    
    	o One time tax preparation for home owners not to exceed $100."
    
    We're both right...it is for PREPARATION, but it is not a whole
    heck of a lot for a ~complicated situation.
    
    Burns
    

    Re relocating within Digital "in general", my personal experience
    is that the reloc policy is very liberal in what is covered and
    what is not.  During reloc (ie, house-hunting) a rental car is covered,
    although gas for it is not.  Makes sense to me, since if you were
    commuting to/from work, you'd have to pay for your own gas *plus*
    use your own car to do it.  Temp housing is paid for, and when
    appropriate, a furnished apt is used instead of a hotel.  (A plicy
    God-send, since living in a hotel for xx weeks with a 4-year-old
    would not be a picnic.)
    
    One thing employees need to understand is to first determine whether
    or not it makes sense for them to move.  Digital does *not* make
    salary adjustments for:
    
    *  a field employee who is moving to "greater Maynard" and no longer
       gets a company car.
           
    *  the fact that housing (both rental and purchase) is significantly
       more expensive in the greater Maynard area than most (not all)
       other areas of the country.
    
    Jon

    re: .24:
    
    Ah.. The ability of employees to change jobs and move when they feel
    that they no longer want to work where they are working is STILL IN
    DEC'S BEST INTEREST.  I do not draw a distinction (except for the
    extreme cases you mentioned --- DEC relocating an entire group, etc.)
    between me wanting to move and DEC wanting me to want to move. 

    And DEC has never said that it would only "help out" with relocation
    costs.  It says that it will COVER x, y, z, and q.
    
    "COVER" .ne. "HELP OUT"!  "COVER" means 100%.

    I do not think of myself as a complainer.  I have seen too many cases
    of "the big guy" vs. "the little guy" to trust that everything will
    work as it is supposed to without keeping one of my eyes open. 
    
    
    re: .26:
    
    Whenever I have needed a rental car for househunting or temporary
    housing, I have always had my gas covered.  What company do you
    work for?  :-)

    
    
      RENTAL CARS!!
    
          Tax preperation????
    
    I just want a job! heck I have a good two man tent that ought to
    be good enough for the time being....any Rocky Mountain RECS out
    there? ;-)
    
    Chris...
    

    Chris,
    
    Try contacting Eva Martinez @ CXO.  She is the recruiter for the
    Customer Support Center (CSC).  Sorry, but I don't have a node name.
    
    	- Jerry

Re: Note 123.29
>                                   Sorry, but I don't have a node name.
    

    
    Eva's VAX node is TAS::Martinez, her DECMAIL is CXO, her mail stop
    is CXO3-1/Q3, and her number is in the phone book... Hope that helps
    a little more...
    
    	- Gale

    
    
       Thanks for the "Stats" on Eva Martinez but I think she already
    knows me better that she wishes... ( I have sent her several resumes...
    I get a little anxious sometimes)
    
      I got a call yesterday soooo lets see what happens....
    
    Chris;-))))