Conference 7.286::digital

This may be completely off the wall, but I have heard from several people
that vacation time in Europe is often dictated by the host nation, and that
it is considerably more liberal than in the States.  I think a lot of people
would be more productive in the long run if they had just a little more time
off (myself included).  I offered to trade part of my last raise for more
vacation time, but I was told it couldn't be done.

I must say, I was appalled when I first found out how little time off you
get in the US. Basic leave here in the UK is twice that in the US. On the
other hand, you get paid about half the salary. Even allowing for differencves
in cost of living, housing etc., I think I might just be tempted to move
from the UK to the US for a US salary and take the cut in leave.

john brooke

Here in Australia, we get 4 weeks vacation per year. It is paid with a 17 
percent loading... i.e. You get $100 per week while working, you get $117 
while on vacation. We also rate about 8 days of assorted public holidays as 
well.


Q

That's a better deal than in the UK - you get the four weeks, but no salary
loading. Public holidays of one sort and another probably account for another  
seven days or so.

I believe that other European countries have more public holidays than we
do in the UK.

john

You get paid more for NOT working? That's some racket...

Yeah, but the problem in this organization is taking the holidays. I have 
about 10 weeks vacation acrued and get the dirtiest looks if ever I mention 
wanting to take a week off.


Q

Response .1 is correct in stating that DEC in Europe very much
follows the laws and labor practices in local countries. In any
case DEC cannot offer less vacation time than is legislated.

My experience is from DEC Finland between 1974-77. I had to take
50% reduction in vacation time (from four weeks to two) when
moving to the U.S..
Now, when I finally get four weeks in the U.S., employees in
Finland get five weeks after five years of service. On other
hand, in Finland there are less public holidays, which fall on weekdays,
than in many other European countries and the U.S..

A comparison of vacation time in US, UK, France, Germany

US
2 weeks pa, 3 after 5years service, 4 after 10.   What about after 15, 20
etc?

UK.
4 weeks pa, 5weeks after 5 years.

France.

5 weeks pa, 2 days per year of service up to 2 years ie max extra 4 days
so after 2 years you get 29 days per year.

In addition.

1 day every 7 weeks non-cumulative due to reduction of working hours legislation

If you take 2 weeks holiday between October 1 and March 31, you are entitled
to 2 days extra.

other goodies
matrimonial leave 1 week
paternity leave 
maternity leave
leave for moving house

The vacation year runs 1st June to 31 May.
All vacation MUST be taken in the year of entitlement ie no carry forward,
BUT if your manager agrees or insists, unused vacation CAN be carried
forward to the next year, but such vacation is known as compensation days

Major drawback.

UNLESS you are an international transferee with more than 1 years service,
 you get ZERO paid vacation in the year of hire and then in the next year only
pro rata vacation based on length of service in the previous vacation year.
You can take unpaid vacation, but even that is based on time earned through
length of service.

Germany

They get 6 weeks pa, I don't know about supplements for length of service.

Howard

Does anyone have an idea of pay differences.  I'm in the US and think I would
like to transfer to France.  I realize currency fluctuations have a severe
impact on the differential...but does anyone have an idea of a "ballpark"
figure of  percentage drop going from US to France.  Or conversely increase\
going the other way.

???????????Daniel?????????????

Cost of living in US (Mass) is 50% or more higher than in the area of France
close to Geneva and that's one of the 3 most expensive areas in France.
Based on a rate of exchange of 9FF = 1$, my starting salary in the US was
about 50% higher.    Income taxes are much higher in the US.    Of course,
if you manage to get a temporary international relocation to France, then
pay differentials don't matter, since France has a home compensation policy.
However, French is mandatory for survival.

Howard

Germany

6 weeks pa, you get 50% adittional of your month salary,there are 10 days
public holiday minimum (diff. from area to area where you live, some have
more).If you working in Field Service they calculate as well how much over-
time you would had done and pay these as well.(reference=last 3 month)

Joachim

re .8:

US - 5 weeks vacation after 20years

    I periodically take a few days off to keep my total hours under two
    weeks (3 weeks starting June). I get bored after one week of vacation
    to the point where I can hardly wait to get back to work. I guess I'm a
    little wierd.
    
    -George


But so am I.

	Mike

     I have heard that it is possible to take vacation even if you
    do not have the hours accumulated? This would be unpaid vacation.
    Does anyone know of any documentation on this? I am interested in
    taking a week here and a week there and don't care about the money,
    I just would like the time off. 
    
    -Tom

    You may request a Personal Leave of absence after you have completed
    2 years of service with DEC. Limit is 90 days or less.
    
    See the Personnel Policies and Procedures book section 4.23.
    
    /tb/
    

    	Do such leaves of absence need to be justified to a committee
    in some way, or do they only need to be asked for?
    
    	Ed
    

     I heard that this kind of leave was not necessarily a leave of
    absence but unpaid vacation. This was third party info told to 
    an employee (who has since left) by a personnel rep who said that
    they do it every year. I make this point as I was told that leaves
    of absences '...are looked down on' and treated 'as a favor' where
    the unpaid vacation is not remarked on.
     Has anyone done any unpaid vacations?
    
    -Tom

    I have heard (or read, I can't remember) that an  employee can take
    a six month unpaid leave of absence. I know from experience that
    a vacation can be taken without the necessary accumalated leave,
    it just gets deducted at a later date.
    
    .jim.                

     Yes, I have heard that it is possible to take advance vacation
    and later accumulate the hours. The situation I am interested in
    falls between leave of absence and acculumated hours vacation.
    It was indicated to me that if I put in for vacation and I did not
    in fact have the hours accumulated, that my pay for that period
    would be only for the vacation hours I had with the remaining hours
    as unpaid. This is exactly what I am interested in verifing as it
    is not the money I care about, it's the time. Also taking a 
    leave of absence leaves the stigma which I am trying to work around.
    
     I kick myself for not documenting it when I heard it...
    
    -Tom
    

    This happened to me when I first started at DEC.  You can't take
    vacation until you've been with the company at least 3 months. 
    I took a few days just before my 3 months, and didn't get paid.

    No matter what you call it, if your boss approves, it will probably
    work out OK. If your boss doesn't approve it, you will probably
    get hassled. As an employee, you have the right to earned vacation,
    but not to leaves except certain specific ones listed in the policy
    manuals (such as maternity, sick, death-in-family, military...).

    I work in Holland. You really don't want to know how much vacation
    we get here. You'll sleep better not knowing :-).
    
    Maurice

    As mentioned in earlier replies, DEC vacation in Germany is 6 weeks
    (or more exactly, 30 working days). End of November, everybody get
    one month's extra salary (this is just an optical trick, of course,
    because salary ranges are defined in terms of annual salary, and
    then your monthly pay is actually 1/13 of that).
    
    In germany, Bavaria (where Munich is) has 14 public holidays per
    year (not all may be on working days, depending on the year, this
    year they are [except one Saturday]!)
    
    Besides, at DEC, 24th and 31st December are free.

    I've heard of people taking more vacation time than hours accrued.
    I'm not sure if they 'borrowed' vacation time or went unpaid.
    
    The thing I remember is that it was up your management.
    
    	KC

    A couple of years ago, I accidentally took a few more hours of vacation
    than  I  had  accrued  ...  the  time was taken out of my next paycheck
    (which made perfect sense to me).   I  have  since  assumed  that  this
    was standard procedure.
                                        
    Terry

That's standard operating procedure for Payroll.

It doesn't say what happens with your manager and personnel.  Technically,
you were absent without leave.  The policy on this is automatic termination
after the third day.  Less than that is just a reprimand.

Be glad you have a reasonable manager who didn't do anything.

/john

    There's a space on my timecard for "advance vacation".  If I put
    some number of hours in there, does it make it O.K. to take (paid)
    vacation I have not yet earned?  (Assuming I also check it with
    my manger).

	:Karl.

      The space on your timecard for advance vacation is for you
      to get paid for one or more weeks of vacation on the payday
      immediately in advance of the start of your vacation.  You
      are supposed to have the number of hours you claim already
      accrued.  
      
      My understanding of the policy is that you cannot take vacation
      that you haven't yet earned, and an attempt to do so could
      cause you not to be paid for the number of hours in excess
      of what you had already accrued.  Instead of a full week's
      pay for your vacation, you could have a short paycheck.  
      
      More drastic action could result, too.  Like someone may interpret
      an attempt to collect unearned vacation pay as fraud,
      falsification of official company records (the time card),
      etc.  
      
      I suggest checking with your manager, and being very sure that you
      and (s)he agree on what you are doing, and that it is the correct
      procedure.  In the final analysis, though, if you falsify a time
      card, you may be responsible even if your manager knew what you
      were doing.  You can get fired for that offense (and not just
      here, in any company I ever worked for). 
      
      Dave C.

    
    
    re:18,19
    
    	Depending on your manager, you can take some unpaid vacation.
    	I did it after I had only 2 1/2 months as a full time employee,
    	At first I didn't realize that I haden't finished my probationary
    	period as I had been working as a co-op for about 6 months prior.
    	My PSA and payroll clarified the situation.
    
    
    					/^PiT^\

    Can anyone tell me the corporate policy on overtime payments or
    do they vary from plant to plant.
    
    

    Overtime Pay is covered in section 3.09 of the Polices and Procedures
    manual.  the orange book.  Every manager in digital should have
    a copy. 

Re: .32

>    Overtime Pay is covered in section 3.09 of the Polices and Procedures
>    manual.  the orange book.  Every manager in digital should have
>    a copy. 

This manual applies only to the US.  Other countries have their own 
versions.


Re: .31 

In general it would be true to say that overtime pay varies from country to
country.  For example, in the UK, since the abolition of wage classes at
the start of the year, everyone up to level 7 is eligible for overtime
payments for work which is pre-approved and is additional to their normal
job.  The case may be different at the Ayr manufacturing plant as it is 
operated be a separate company.

If you work in Engineering (like I do) this does not apply.  A decision was 
made by the Engineering Managers who decided (rightly in my view) that it 
was inappropriate and against the Digital Engineering philosophy to pay 
professional staff overtime.  The Engineering Managers are monitoring the
level of overtime payments to other UK employees and if they find that
overtime is being used to surreptitiously increase salary levels they will
adjust the salaries paid in Engineering by a similar amount. 

jb