Conference 7.286::digital

Hi Bob.
This issue raised up in #5 here, but without a lot of success.

Didier

There are reasons for that.... mail me if you want to hear a gory story.

Sorry Didier, but this file can be a little too public.

andy

I agree. That's why I didn't post another story I know well...

Anyway, we can discuss about the way it (should) works.

Didier

Sorry, I didn't realize or remember that the subject was raised
previously (must be suffering from SWS burnout :-).

If anyone has any comments or tales-that-are-not-too-private to
post here, I for one would be interested in seeing them.  So far
management has been receptive to my desire to relocate, but nothing
concrete has happened yet either.

			Bob A.

Relocations can take a long time or short time.   Managers can be
helpful or unhelpful.

There are 2 categories of relocations - domestic and international.
I gather you are interested in International which is further sub-divided
into Permanent and Temporary.

There is a Digital personnel policy (no 29 I think) on International relocation
assignments.   you can get it from either country personnel dept or in US
Sandi Scanlon, Field Operations relocation manager.   Local personnel in US
may not have it.

Diff between Perm and temp.

Perm.

This is where you move from one country to another and stay in the 2nd
country (one way ticket).
DEC pay your fare, removal of furniture, agent fees for renting/buying home
locally, tax orientation and tax equalisation of allowances or relocation 
payments as above.   You also get a miscellaneous relocation allowance, which 
is to help you get set up in new country ie buy appliances, get electricity, 
phone installed etc.    this is 2500$ for US, for France somewhere in 
range 18-20kff. You become a permanent employee of host country, but your 
service elsewhere counts towards holidays and pension rights etc.     


Temp.

This is where you move from home to host country for 1-3 years and then
go back to home country at end.     The allowances are much more generous
than permanent but then you can't benefit from the stability of permanent
relocation, so DEC compensates for that.    Allowances depend on compensation
policy, which is either host or home country.    Host is where you are
paid like a local employee, but get certain allowances.   Home is where you
are paid like a home employee plus certain different allowances.   For
temporary assignment you need home country manager.  He/she should be not
more than 2 levels below vice-president and is responsible for your reference
salary and for ensuring that you can return to home country at end of
assignment.     If you can't get a home country manager, you can't have a
temp relocation.   If you want to go to US it must be temp assignment for
visa reasons, so no hcm, no relocation.    This happened to a friend in
DECAustralia who wanted to go to the US.   he had job lined up, his manager
wouldn't let him go for a year, wouldn't help with hcm issue.   he kicked
up a fuss and now his career has been shot to pieces in Oz for that reason.
So much for the statements made earlier in this file about how fair DEC is.
In general, people are reluctant to be hcms because it costs them a lot of
money (they have to pay your return expenses).

As far as international relocations are concerned, DEC generally only relocate
managers and senior technical people or people with special skills not available
locally.

If you want more info, send me mail on 
	SNOV12::FOBSTEST   (Sydney Australia), where I'll be next week.
	I'll copy didier on replies so he can post them here.
DO NOT SEND MAIL TO MY account on RHODES for next 2-3 weeks and thereafter
expect 2 week delay for replies.

Howard Perry

Thanks for the info -- actually I am looking at a domestic relocation
in the U.S. (I'm currently in Bedford, New Hampshire.  The "Old Country"
is Camden, New Jersey.  People who know me realize what I mean when I talk
about the "Old Country", I'm afraid here it was a bit misleading.)

If DEC won't transfer me, I do have other possibilities but I would rather not
leave the company unless there is no other alternative.

				Bob A.

A lot depends on the managers involved.  I have seen several cases where
people transferred to other projects in other groups for interest and/or
career development reasons.  They were not blocked from so doing by management.
However, they did have to complete their current commitments to their current
projects before moving on.

On the other hand, I've also seen cases where a supervisor spread vicious
rumors about an individual to prevent that person from transferring out of
a particular job.

Finally, I've seen a case where a manager told an employee that the person
was not working out in the group.  The manager actively helped the employee
find another organization that was a better fit.

--PSW

		To make a long story very short. I tried to
	transfer to a new group. However things did not work
	out. My manager was helpful , my supervisor was not.
	Now that I stayed with the group I feel that I have
	been blackballed. My senoirity level with the group
	was #2 but since the attempted move I am treated like
	a newcomer. Given boring projects, while my fellow 
	workers seem to get sent to places for meetings etc.
	(sounds like I'm complaining HUH?) I mean I was treated
	very fairly before the incident. What is a person to do?

	( I think make the move now ) 

Have you discussed this with your manager (the one who was helpful)?  It
could be that your supervisor has it in for you now, but on the other hand,
it just might be your turn to do the grunge work for a while.  You'll never
know if you don't ask.

--PSW

please avoid discussing too *personal* issues. I don't want to see this file
becoming a court for employees problems.

Thanks

Didier, moderator.

RE: International relocation

International relocation doesn't seem to be too much of a problem, except
finding a job in a foreign country where your skills are needed and not
localy available. How good it works depends a lot on how good you're able
to sell yourself. Some countries are relunctant to let their people relocate
to another country (going as far as just telling the employee that there
is not international relocation policy within DEC). But ODP should help,
and I've seen some cases where it did.
But, if moving from DEC to DEC in different countries does not change a lot
for you, don't forget your wife and kids. Not just a few relocations end
after a few months, because the family cannot stand the country or the people
any more. 

Re: .-1  Is it you Rene'?

(interesting, because Rene' Guillaume is the guy who introduced me to the
 wonderful world of Notes...) :-)

I  joined  DEC  in  October  last year with Information Services, User
Support  in  Munich,  and  moved  to  Germany  with full intentions of
staying  here  permanently.  This view may seem rash, but it was based
on  the  fact  that  my Mother is German, and I have relations here in
Germany  including  two  brothers who settled here (being German born)
rather  than  in  England.  I do not speak German, being raised in the
U.K.

I  was  extremely  excited  in  getting  the job with DEC, as this was
something  that I had wanted for some time.  I have no children, but I
am  married  and  have  two cats.  The decision to move abroad was not
taken lightly and the pro's and con's weighted at some length.

The  problems  started  when  'attempting'  to deal with the Personnel
dept.,  trying to make all necessary arrangements for Germany from the
U.K. was extremely difficult.

The relocation package offered by Germany consisted of; cost of travel
for   myself   and  family,  cost  of  furniture  removals,  temporary
accomodation  while  looking  for somewhere to live (ie: hotel), misc.
expenses  (paid  against receipts) to DM 5,000. Cost of German lessons
for  self  and  wife, U.K. tax advise, and the cost of two home visits
and cost of agency fees for renting of a flat.

O.K., this is generous and seems quite comprehensive, but the problems
come with the ambiguous nature of the above.

TEMPORARY  ACCOMODATION  -  the  sum  of  DM  3000  was  allocated for
temporary  hotel  accomodation.   Taking into account the availability
(or  lack,  thereof)  accomodation  at  the  time  I had to pay DM 760
towards the cost of the hotel bill.

MISCELLANEOUS  EXPENSES  -  I  was  not told what was covered by this,
other than Carpets and Curtains.  I did not have a telephone installed
in  the  flat  I  rented  because of cost, and on several occasions my
supervisor asked why I didn't have a phone installed.  I felt that DEC
should  have  covered  the cost of installing the telephone, but I was
told  this  was  not  the  case.    But, lo and behold, DEC would have
covered the cost, but nobody knew about it.

HOME VISITS WHEN KEEPING TWO HOUSEHOLDS - I owned my house in England,
and  moving  away  meant that I had to sell it, the cost of selling my
home was not covered by the relocation package.  This meant that I had
to  pay quite a lot of money for agency and legal fees.  Completion of
the sale of my house took place 8 months after moving here which meant
that I still had to cover the cost of my house plus the cost of living
in  Germany,  (which  cost  twice the monthly amount that I paid on my
house, for a three-roomed flat).  The punch-line here is that the home
visits  were  valid  'ONLY  IF  MY  WIFE  WAS STILL IN ENGLAND', this,
despite the fact that I had made a commitment to settle in Germany and
sell my home etc.

FURNITURE  REMOVALS - the full cost of furniture removals was covered,
including  insurance.    The  normal  penalty  clause to protect DEC's
investment  was  included,  ie:  pay  back a percentage of the removal
costs  should  you  leave  the  company  within  a  given period.  Now
describe  'leaving  the  company'  and equate it to the comment in the
main  note  '...DEC freely allows, and even encourages, people to move
within the company...', and you have: CONFUSION.

I  have  applied  for  and  got  a  relocation back to the U.K., after
spending  11  months working for I.S.  The main reason for the move is
that  User  Support does not offer the amount of technical involvement
that  I was led to believe was available.  So after being 'led-around'
the subject of training courses and my plea's for more technical tasks
also  not bringing results, I sought a position that would allow me to
use my knowledge for my own and the companies benefit.

As  a  consequence  of  this move, I must pay back a percentage of the
removal costs, because 'I am leaving the company'.  But, I will retain
my  badge  number,  plus  it  would  have been possible to transfer my
outstanding holidays to the U.K.

I  thought  that DEC had a 'corporate' structure, indicating that I am
relocating  INTERNALLY,  to take my existing skills to where they will
do the most good.

These  discrepancies  in  the  methods  used by Germany personnel have
given  me  a very sordid view of DEC as a whole, which I am assured by
U.S. friends is not true.

There  have  been  other  items  of  general  'sillyness', such as not
informing  International  relocaties  of  the  legal requirements, not
taking  into  account  the fact they might not speak the language, and
will  find  registering in a foreign country a big problem.  Supplying
relocaties  with  a 'Personnel Handbook' in German, which they are NOT
going to be able to read.

Perhaps  I  have  a different concept of the function of the Personnel
Department.    I  feel  that  they  are  there to provide a service to
employees,  both new and old.  They are not an Employment Agency whose
main function is to recruit people for open slots, regardless.  I also
acknowledge  that  this situation  is not  indicative of ALL Personnel
Departments.

I  agree  with  the  comment in note_5.0 that '...relocation costs the
Company  a LOT of money...', and saving ANYONE'S money is worth while.
Relocation  costs  are  incurred by the employee in most cases, not to
mention the effort and emotion often entailed with moving to a foreign
country, and a sensible advisory service ( from Personnel), would save
the company a lot of money in unnecessary relocation expenses etc.

Well,  that  just about covers my experience with relocating, I didn't
intend to write a book.



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Re: -.1
It seems to me that you've been done.   As you intended to relocate
permanently, you should have received a permanent relocation package.
I mentioned this in an earlier response from NWG780::.   The main
features of the permanent package are:
. transportation for you and your family 
. removal of household goods
. tax orientation and consultancy for 1st year ie Coopers & Lybrand
  prepare your tax declaration.
. re housing - what you would get if you were a host country employee
  relocating internally within the host country eg fees to find flat
  or legal/agents fees to sell and buy house.
. temporary living, rental car, hotel accomodation and meals .. no limit
  on cost.. for 30 days, can be extended at discretion of cost centre
  manager.
. miscellaneous relocation reimbursement.   This is a flat rate payment
  to the relocatee and is fixed by country eg in US it is $2500.   When
  I relocated to France in 1982 it was ca FF17000.  It covers miscellaneous
  expense liabilities not covered elsewhere eg phone /utility installation
  or connection, purchase of electrical goods in host country.
. Tax equalisation on all allowances, expenses claimed.

I am aware that DEC Munich tend to do things differently from elsewhere,
but there is an International relocation policy and my experience is
that it is applied consistently as far as allowances and reimbursement
of relocation costs is concerned.

DEC Kaufbeuren, admittedly a separate company legally from Munich, publish
a leaflet explaining the niceties of moving to Germany, in English.
However, the employee handbook explaining holidays, mileage allowances,
company policies etc is usually written in the local language of the
country, since the vast majority of employees are recruited locally.
Also, despite the fact that DEC is a US-based company, DEC Germany is very
much a German company in many respects.

Finally, It is because DEC is a US company where the company language is
English, that you were able to get a transfer to a country whose language
you didn't speak.    If you only spoke German, what chance would you
have of getting a transfer to UK or US?

Howard

        re:-.2
        
        Yep,  sounds  like you got the run around.  Having moved 
        from Britain to the US earlier this year, I can only say 
        that  I  have  had  no  more  than  minor irritations in 
        dealing with personnel  (the  main  one  was  that  they 
        entered  my  start date as the date I started in the US, 
        and so my leave accrued at the minimum rate,  -  it  has 
        taken  a  long time to get the start date changed to the 
        day I joined the company, and I still  haven't  had  the 
        leave  recalculated to reflect the date, but it WILL get 
        sorted out). Everything else is fine.
        
        /. Ian .\
        
        PS they even offered to pay for  language  lessons  so I 
        could learn "American English" since my native tongue is 
        "British English"!

Re: -.1
Yes, Personnel do have problems with start dates.   They put June '83, instead
of March 1980, on my visa application when they applied in Jan '84.    
The visa application  was rejected....then they appealed (appeals can
take up to 6 months). So it took 7 months to get the visa instead of the
alledged norm of 6-8 weeks.    Apart from this glitch everything was OK
getting over....going back is a different ballgame.

Did you take up the offer of American English lessons?     I didn't get
that specifically spelled out, although it's in the letter of assignment
(up to $1000), but has to be approved by cost centre manager and Personnel
manager and I don't see them agreeing.     Mind you, for Brits coming to
US such a course is, in my view mandatory, since there are important
differences between the two and cultural linguistic differences as well.

    Re .-1:

    Howard, you misspelled 'cost center' again!  Where did we go wrong
    with you!   :-)


    Dave

								
        re .16:
        
        No  I  didn't take them up on the offer: my parents were 
        with the British embassy in Washington at one time, with 
        the  result  that  I  spent  a  little over a year at an 
        American school. In the circumstances, I think a request 
        for  "American"  lessons  would  be  more  than a little 
        unlikely to succeed.
        
        Still it's a nice thought.  Incidentally having  had the 
        experience as a child of moving to an American school, I 
        would strongly advise getting all the help you  can  for 
        any  children  brought  to  a  foreign country: they can 
        suffer  far  worse  than  the   adults   from   cultural 
        differences, and odd language usage.
        
        /. Ian .\

I am looking for pointers on international relocation. I have an interview
in the next two weeks for a position in Germany or England. I have not yet
read the international relocation policy (tonight's goal). Any ideas on taxes,
home in the U.S. (keep, sell), pay scale, etc, etc. 

Any and all info would be appreciated. 

Thanks

Merle 

Since I did start this note, I thought I should report that I have
secured a position with DEC in the Old Country (New Jersey) and will be
relocating after Labor Day.  Thus far my experiences on the whole
has been positive, and I don't expect any difficulties in making the
transition.

another happy ending.  welcome back to the Garden State.  you may even 
get in on the tail end of a bumper crop of those famous Jersey tomatoes!

I'm on International Relocation. I didn't had a big problem untill now with
my new and old cost center.

re:-2 

ask yor personal department or ask for the copy at the time when you having
your interview. So far as i now is there a standard DEC international relocation
policy.( i haven't seen any differences untill now)
If you need further Information send me a mail and i will have a look in
my contract for details...


	Joachim

soory, i meant reply:-3 =no.19

	I am trying to relocate within the U.S. and wonder if anyone has
seen a similar situation like mine.   
	In short, After a formal interview, the hiring manager and personnel
felt confident they would make and offer once the Req. was signed off.  The
signature loop made it to the CSM Organization and became snagged.  I
realize that AUSTERITY PROGRAMS are still in effect but I don't feel comfortable
that I was told the reason for no signature was due to excess persons in
CSM (of which I am not directly a member of) when a different hiring manager
in a different CSM affiliated facility would secure a position for me if
I verbally agree to accept.  
	I was a new college hire last January.  I see conflicting stories
that need clarification.	Any offerings would be helpful.

Liz

Having friend in the CSM org, I would believe the manager who wanted you but
could not get permission to hire.  The CSM org has one of the tightest freezes
I have seen - of course there may be a slip or two but for the most part
jobs are going by the wayside because qualified people can not be found in the
CSM organization and they can not hire from other groups.

RE: .24

It looks like you got hired to fill a req. that didn't exist yet.  I would
say that neither of the two managers you mentioned actually had a req. that
they were trying to fill.  Both had things they wanted to do and were trying
to cut reqs. so that they could hire people.

My own opinion is that it's bad form to start interviewing people unless
the req. for the position has been made official.  This avoids quandries
for potential hires into the req. such as in .24.

--PSW

What is CSM ?

Fred

Computer Systems Manufacturing.  It's a subset of Manufacturing Operations.

I'm on international permanent relocation in Germany.

My relocation was short of a dissaster with a happy ending:


1.   My current location (in Germany) called me on the phone and
     said that they would be interesting in speaking with me about
     a possible job.

2.   I arranged a business meeting at the facility and also managed
     to discuss the opportunity with the potential incoming manager.
     We got off to an excellent start, and mutually agreed that we
     should inform my previous manager that there was a job opening
     in Germany and ask for permission to commence the interviewing
     process.

3.   My manager and my personnel manager gave the green-light for
     interviewing (in writing) for a temporary international relocation.

4.   The interviewing started with all parties believing everything was OK.

4.   My managers' manager came back from vacation and was told of the
     relocation procedures.  He went off the wall, as he had not been
     consulted. He was a marketing director within the Country Management

5.   Unfortunately my personnel manager only informed the Personnel
     director about the relocation procedure three weeks after he had given
     the green light to proceed with the interviewing.

     The personnel director went crazy, as he had not been consulted.

6.   Both directors were exceptionally upset and alot of untrue rumors were
     circulated about me. What was worse, they refused to talk to me about
     anything.

7.   At this time the incoming site started to get worried. What type of
     trouble-maker were they hiring?  The relocation procedure ground to 
     a complete standstill.

8.   In the nerve-racking end, the incoming site finally brought me to
     Germany on a PERMANENT relocation. I am very happy in my job and in
     my new home. None the less the experience was excruciatingly painful.

     Once on board at the new location, every thing has been smooth sailing
     and there have been NO relocation problems what so ever.

    
    	I am considering the possibilty of getting a short-term international 
    	assignment from the US to an area in or near London.
    
    	If I was willing to pay my own relocation expenses would that make 
    	things any more favorable for the hiring manager?  I am not sure I
    	could swing it but since I am in a position to simply rent my
    	studio condo which is located near Boston and Northeastern 	
    	University I think I could do it relatively easier than some who
    	have more ties with selling their home, etc.
    
    	Has anyone any experiences with this type of reloaction?
    
    	Thanks,
    	- Jim

    Given that you're not an EC citizen, in order to get a job over here,
    you'll need a work permit. DEC (or another big corporation) stand a
    much better chance of arranging that than you as an individual.
    
    It can be done, but it's hard.
    
    In general, Personnel will frown on you paying your own relocation
    costs, because it has the potential to be a situation that's actually
    abuse of an employee by a Manager.
    
    If there's a job over here that you apply for and get, then you get
    relocation. If there's no job, sorry, but there's no job....

    When an international temporary assignment is granted, the benefits
    provided to the employee cannot be negotiated away, even at the request
    of the employee.  In some cases, the benefits are government
    regulated/required.  I speak from the experience of being incoming
    manager for five relocatees to the US.

>               <<< Note 29.31 by LESLIE::LESLIE "Andy Leslie" >>>

>    Given that you're not an EC citizen, in order to get a job over here,
>    you'll need a work permit. DEC (or another big corporation) stand a
>    much better chance of arranging that than you as an individual.

You stand no chance of getting it as an individual. UK Immigration told
me about 3 months ago that individuals cannot apply for work permits.
It must be done by a company. 
    
>    In general, Personnel will frown on you paying your own relocation
>    costs, because it has the potential to be a situation that's actually
>    abuse of an employee by a Manager.

Not if there's no relo with the job in the first place.

>    If there's a job over here that you apply for and get, then you get
>    relocation. If there's no job, sorry, but there's no job....

However, if you want to move quickly and it's taking months to get
the relo associated with the job signed off, then obviously the
whole process will complete quicker if you just take the job and tell
them to scrub the relo.

Perhaps the expatriates conference would also be a good place to ask
these questions?

	Craig.

    You can't "tell them to scrub the relo".  Nice thought though.
    
    
    						- andy