Conference waylay::singles_chat

    	Sometimes you believe you've found someone good and decent and 5 
    or so years down the road - you find you were wrong...
    
    	Sometimes even giving everything you've got and then some, isn't
    enough - it takes two and if only one of you is doing the work -
    well...
    
    joyce

    
    	Sometimes the suckiest life experiences are the ones we most benefit
    from.
    
    	Who we are today, is a direct result of what we've been through...
    
    joyce

We all tend to go over and over again for "our type".  "Our type" often is based
on our parents - trying to complete/continue that parent-child relationship.
This often backfires.  I've heard many tales of healthy/happy relationships
where the couple didn't even like each other when they met and never, ever
thought they'd end up together.  There actually was a good article in (I think)
the Nov 96 Cosmo about NOT going for "your type".  It was an excerpt from a 
book, something like "How Not to Stay Single".  Sounds like a kinda hokey title
but the excerpt was good.  I have the article if anyone is interested in a copy.
The author talked about keeping an open mind and not always going with the guys
(female author) we tend to gravatate to.

B

    
>    	Sometimes the suckiest life experiences are the ones we most benefit
>    from.
    
>    	Who we are today, is a direct result of what we've been through...
    
I can certainly vouch for that!!!!!!  ;-)

B

    	Its kind of interesting - I think DeWitt cured me of being
    attracted to "that kinda guy"  - guess I should thank him :-)
    
    	Yep, I'd say I'm through with the "wounded bird" or "he's got
    potential" syndrome. 
    
    	If he hasn't got integrity, decency and the strength to stand up
    for what he believes in - I'm not interested...
    
    joyce
    
    

    One of the most difficult "thinks" to overcome is the role we were given
    in the family that raised us. I don't look for men like my Dad, I look
    to fill the same slot I filled between my parents and my siblings.
    
    Jan- (the empath, always trying to make things better somehow)

    
>    Yep, I'd say I'm through with the "wounded bird" or "he's got
>    potential" syndrome. 
    
    Well, there goes my chance (I am capable of being serious on occasion,
    really... ;-)
    
    I think I've always been attracted to danger signs (for the 
    psychoanalysts, that'd be the opposite of my mother).  In fact 
    I think it might be happening again.  But with family now, I can 
    put it all into perspective... integrity does prevail...
    
    glenn
    

RE: .0

	You can't "make" anyone happy. No matter what you do, if
	you are in a crappy relationship or not, you can't "make"
	someone happy. You can only make the environment of the
	relationship healthy and nurturing. If the person isn't
	happy outside of the relationship, they certainly aren't
	going to be happy in it. I firmly believe that you have to 
	be happy first with yourself and then together.

	I know that I'm not the same person I was 5, 10, even 15
	years ago. (definately not the same as 15 years ago!) As
	you grow, you either learn to grow together or apart. That's
	life and if you grow apart, you got dealt a crappy card.
	If so, get up and move to a different table. :) :)

							mike

    RE .8 
    
    I agree, however you also need to look back at your (marriage)
    relationships and see if you can understand what went wrong or changed.
    If you don't, or lie to yourself, you may choose the same type of
    person again.
    
    $.02 from Steve

    It's called "comfort zone."  People who grow up in abusive
    or otherwise dysfunctional families tend to seek the
    same environments in adult relationships because they know
    what to expect, and generally how to survive. 
    
    When an opportunity for a  healthy relationship presents
    itself, it is not acted upon because it is an unknown, and 
    evokes new feelings and requires new responses.
    
    /bruce

     re. 7
    
    	damn Glenn I heard you were pretty funny :-)
    
    joyce

    Ever have a kooky friend? Not necessarily a romantic friend... just a
    really comfortable, cozy, sisterly (for you ladies out there,
    brotherly) friend?
    
    Here's what you do: Get 2 packs of pop rocks (those candies that
    explode when you eat them), each person swallows a whole pack all at
    once and then you just sit there taking turns putting your ear on each
    others stomach.
    
    It's a silly and otherwise useless thing to do but darn funny.
    Sometimes we need the silliest and kookiest things to cheer us up.
    
    James

    	I don't need pop rocks in my stomach to produce those same results.
    My digestive system seems capable of converting everything I consume
    into massive quantities of gas. This must explain my amazing success
    with women over the years!
    	My first wife is a younger clone of my mother. Freud would have had
    a field day with this. The two of them still gab on the phone every day
    like sisters.
    	When I was younger, I was shy and insecure and gravitated towards
    girls and women who were pretty and worshipped the ground I walked on
    (i.e. very dependent, somewhat shallow). They were more ornaments to
    show off than companions.
    	Now that I'm an old fart, when I got divorced, I just wanted to be
    myself...no more games...and find a companion/partner. Looks were less
    important. Each one of us has certain core values and feelings, deep
    inside, which guide us in most everything we do, and I was looking for
    someone who deep inside was just like me...who felt the passion I did
    for the same things I did...who had the same life goals...I actually
    wanted the person to be enough different from me at other levels to
    make things more interesting. If we were exactly alike in every way, it
    would be boring. And, of course, there has to be some physical
    attraction, which will grow as the bond between us would grow.
    	I found her in the SINGLES NOTEs file, much to my surprise. There
    was even more physical attraction between us from the start than I had
    hoped for. When we first met, we both could tell that it was just
    right. It feels even more right now than it did then. If we weren't
    married, we'd probably still spend as much time together as possible
    doing things together because we enjoy each other's company so much.
    It's difficult to explain, but I'm sure some of you know what I mean
    when those things deep inside just click into place with someone, and
    you know it's right. You can just be yourself, say and do anything, and
    that person loves you even more (amazing as it seems to me sometimes!).
    	Until this relationship though, I did find myself always getting
    involved with a certain "type" which wasn't good for me in one way or
    another. I couldn't be myself. I couldn't grow. I lived in fear of
    losing her. And I fell in love or was infatuated with some of these
    women in any case. You can't help the way you feel or control it, and
    your heart can often lead you astray.

    turns out I posted .12 here instead of Things that make you happy.
    
    grrrr...
    
    apologies... it was rather out of the subject line..

    re .8
    
    I agree with Mike - you can never "MAKE" someone do/be anything.
    You can only make them "want" to.  You might be able to make a 
    runaway WANT to come home (or stay there in the first place).  You can 
    make your relationship something that the other one WANTS to be
    involved with.  But it's still a matter of choice in the end, I guess.
    
    But on the 2nd part of Mike's ... I have to disagree.  I think that
    half the POINT of a relationship, is to WORK at growing together.  I'm
    not the same person that I was in the past, but only in "better" ways.
    I've become more caring and considerate and broadened my outlook a lot.
    In a really good relationship, you need to stay "in touch" with each
    other enough that you're always teaching and learning from, each other.
    If you're truly close, it seems to me that you should grow together
    "naturally".
    
    If you're in a relationship where you both go out at night and do your
    own thing, and just sort of pass in the hallways in the morning, then I
    would expect you to grow apart.  It takes a lot of effort to be willing
    to share, and to be willing to listen/learn about what your partner is
    going through/interested in/feels about etc.
    
    Remember when you first get together, and maybe you sit and talk about
    what you hope your future to be like?  And where you want to go, and
    what you want to be like when you're old?  And then you sort of "get
    through" that, and no one ever seems to talk about it again.  My goals
    for my future 5 years ago seem to be almost COMPLETELY different than
    they are now.  Partly just from getting old.  Partly from trying to
    grow "with" someone instead of "away" from them (see where THAT got me!
    (-:).  Either way, I think that they're better goals, and make more
    sense for me .... but we never talked about it, and he never knew that
    what I wanted was very much the same as what he wanted (whether we're
    together or apart).  Having that "futures" conversation would have
    meant a lot - to both of us I'm sure.
    
    

    I agree with Patty about growing together. We all grow, and if we don't
    grow together, well we eventually grow apart. No one stays locked in
    one place in time.
    
    My ex an I had plans and dreams together when we were 1st married. After
    we reached our last planned common goal, things started to slide. We
    never made another goal or had a conversation as to where we wanted to
    go.
    
    Steve

    
    
    37.0
    
    James, thanks for opening this up- it was interesting to hear it from
    a male prospective(sp). Although I have not introduced myself properly
    I thought I might share some thoughts here and perhaps do the intro
    another time.
    
    I really enjoyed what you had to say- yes I was one of those people who
    said I would of done anything to make someone happy- I did do just
    about anything, changed my name ( to mrs cabbagehead- a candian
    translation), I moved to another state, gave up my dreams, supported
    Mr. X for 8 to 10 yrs while he decided to work at a job that closed for
    7 to 9 months a year, supported him emotional when he wanted to start
    his own business- ( we lost $40,000 in 8yrs)- basic struggle was what
    I was familiar with in my up brining so I stayed and stayed and
    stayed.
    
    18 yrs of marriage and a little girl that was lost!!  I think I would
    still do "anything to make someone happy but...." I've learned there
    are givers and takers- and when your bucket of giving is empty- time to
    refill!!!
    
    37.3
    Barb,
    
    Yes I would like a copy of that article you mentioned.
    
    
    37.8
    
    Wow your first paragragh was great!!
    
    37.9
    
    Taking a look back is a healthy part of healing, but!!!>>> only when
    you are ready to say- in my case, I didn't do this all by myself, how
    could I do it better next time.
    
    In my case i could not look back till I was legally separted about 
    1 1/2 yrs ago. And then looking back was painfully- YOU CAN'T ***
    beat yourself up!!! (there's plenty of people  around who will do that
    for you with out asking)
    
    37.10
    
    I could relate to the comfort zone-, I work very hard at taking myself
    out of my comfort zone- try it!!! you can always go back, that's the
    fun part of you taking yourself out of the "zone".
    
    One of the hardest things for me was- "How do I start dating"??
    
    20 Years ago, you asked someone to go to party, or being female you 
    hinted at it, or had a friend tell him you'd like to go out with him.
    So what I did was put an ad in the singles file- what an experience-
    
    First, I notice that there were others that were going through what
    I was- that was very comforting, I met  a couple of nice guys,
     out of 10 guys I made some friends and has fun times. Didn't meet
     mr right yet though.
    
    Well I have spouted off enough- thanks for sharing!!!!
    
    
    
     carol
    
    
    
    

    Hello everyone,
    
    Well... I agree that we learn what we live and learning to identify the
    problem(s) *and* the good things about our comfort zones is probably
    one of the toughest things to do.  I've learned over the years that I
    tend to have the 'martyr' syndrome.  Definitely a care giver and never
    learned to 'take' from anyone or anything.  I always gave way too much.  
    
    I can proudly say that while I may not always know what I want, I
    definitely know what I don't want.  It's not been easy, but I've
    actually gotten out of 'bad' relationships fairly quickly (1-2
    months..) as opposed to how long it *used* to take me (years...).  They
    were long years, but I learned something from each one (It just took me
    a while to realize what).  Since the last one (1 1/2 years ago now) I 
    haven't been looking for Mr. Right, I'm just keeping my options open for
    more friends.  Currently, I'm not searching for Mr. Right.  I'm 
    concentrating on me and have gone back to College.  It's given me a 
    diversion for the time being.  
    
    As for a lovelife, I'm going to go on believing in the Cinderella
    stories and hope for the best.  It's nice to know that there are more
    of us out there who feel the same way.
    
    Thanks for letting me vent,
    
    Stephanie 
    

        Good note Stephanie and welcome!! My two cents on the same line is
    that I've played Mr. Martyr all too often as well. I've always been a 
    giver and have been told by many people I don't know how to receive. It's
    a loong story but I came from a family background where I just couldn't do
    anything right no matter how hard I tried. It's a difficult mindest to
    break when you've reached a more mature adulthood. You do something for
    someone expecting nothing in return and you get a nice goody (if you
    don't mind siplistic terms) makes me downright uncomfortable... Mostly
    because it's usually the other persons way of saying WOW you're a nice
    guy.. I've learned through counseling to tell myself loudly when
    someone gives me a gift it's because they feel I deserve it.. With time
    hopefully I'll start believing it too! So for me I need to try to stop
    being a Martyr ,which attracts me to women in dire need, which can be 
    very unfulfilling when you're giving tank has been sucked dry.
    
    bob 

RE: .15

	I never said it WASN'T work. I only said that you have to
	learn to grow together. THAT takes work.

						mike

    and both of you have to want it....
    you can work to improve a realtionship until forever-- but unless the
    other partner is working as well.....
    
    	this is the "giver" issue Bob spoke of. Probably more than a few of
    us find ourselves thinking.. "oh, this person isn't so bad... With just
    a few changes, it just might work out." People don't change for us-- 
    they change for themselves.
    
    
    sad, but true

    	That's the "potential" trap...
    
    j

    re .20
    Sorry Mike!
    
    Yes - I agree that you have to learn to grow together.  The
    first read of your response sounded like you expect people to
    just grow together, and I was just trying to point out that it
    has to be a pretty conscious effort to grow together.
    
    I think we're in violent agreement here (-:
    
    And you ABSOULTELY both have to want to.  As long as you both want
    it, you can do ANYthing .... unfortunately, one always seems to be
    more committed than the other.
    
    ...

    
>    As long as you both want
>    it, you can do ANYthing .... 

ANYthing????  That's a nice dream in my book.  Don't get me wrong, I agree 
wholeheartedly that both have to want it but I think there is a limit.  

B

    Well Barb-- 
    
       They may not be able to levitate the neighbor's house-- but
    I'll bet that any reasonable goal can be met, and it can be done with
    penache-- just look at those oh-so-rare ole folks they highlight every
    now and then on the tv-- you know, married a zillion years and still in
    love.. he pinches her cheek, she giggles and takes his hand, he brings
    it to his lips to kiss it.... they didn't have life fall in their
    laps-- they had hard times-- but they shared it, and cared for the
    other person, kept their sense of humor, remembered that sometimes the
    union is more important than anything-- and they BOTH remembered it!
    (at least most of the time!)
    
    Jan

    
    yep .... just exactly like Jan said.  Any reasonable goal.  If you both
    want it, then I don't see anything in the world that should stop it. 
    We can overcome all things - it's a matter of will.  In some cases it's
    a matter of being willing/able to pay the price, but if you can truly
    keep your hearts and your heads in the right place, and you both truly
    want to do it - anything's possible.
    
    A friend of mine was married for several years.  Over time, they
    started to grow apart.  They had a child, and started growing further
    apart.  They both wanted the same LONG term goals, but their short term
    goals were different.  They resorted to drugs and alcohol to fill the
    void in their lives, separated from each other, had episodes of
    physical violence, had other relationships, and completely deserted
    each other.  Families and friends took sides, the lawyers were
    involved, paperwork done.
    
    At the last minute, they started talking.  They BOTH wanted the family
    with 2.3 kids, white picket fence and deep down still loved each other.
    Each of their lives was a total MESS, and they had really NOTHING to
    build on except the belief that they both wanted the same thing, and
    they had their son to make their union that much more desireable.
    
    They each gave up their drugs/alcohol, and after months in rehab
    centers, were FINALLY able to pull it off.  They've each been "clean"
    (sober) for over a year.  And it's taken a year, but they are now more
    in love with each other than they've ever been.  Their son is THRILLED
    to death to have Mommy and Daddy back together again.  Their families
    are a little slower in coming around (but then their families have
    always been a bit of the problem as well), but the two of them know
    that they are each the mose important person in the others lives, and
    more than anything, they want to be together.  They **BOTH** wanted to
    stay together.
    
    If that's not a fine example, I certainly don't have a better one.  It
    was hard as hell for both of them, and it took lots and lots of tears
    and harsh words, but they continuously tried to refocus themselves
    around "This is what we really want, and damnit, we're going to work at
    it till we figure it out!"
    
    So, yeah, they had a shitty year, but now they've been married for 5
    years, and in 5 more, the memory of this bad year will only bring them
    closer.  Having survived it, because more than anything, they wanted
    each other.
    
    They have my greatest respect and admiration.  
    
    

    
         The most important line is that they worked it together, they
    both wanted it to work!
    
        It's great to hear news like that! I do know some couples that
    have worked it out once they knew they needed help. They're still
    together, supporting each other.
    
        Rosie

Yes, that's a great story!  And yes, some couples can work through a lot of
sh*t.  Both wanting to is a neccessity but not a guarantee though in my book.  
Two people can both want to work things out but if they are basically incompat-
ible people (who perhaps ended up together for the wrong reasons) then I'm not
sure wanting to make it work is gonna carry them through.

B

    
    .... but if you truly WANT it to work, and are both truly willing to
    WORK at it, then you find ways to be more compatible.  To compromise,
    and then to be okay with the compromise.
    
    For example;
    
    He likes to go out and party hearty every Friday night
    She wants him to stay home and make dinner together and cuddle every 
    	Friday night.
    
    They can either split up, or try to work it out.  A compromise might be
    that every other Friday they do what the other likes.  Maybe a little
    "regimented" for some, but probably workable.  And then once you AGREE
    to something, you also have to be willing to set aside any resentment
    or "bad feelings" about not getting your way ALL the time.
    
    More often than not, someone is SO bent on getting their own way, that
    they lose sight of "wanting it to work" and aren't willing to sacrifice
    for the "whole".  
    
    .... of course I've always thought that Communications and Negotiations
    are absolutely NECESSARY instruction for Anyone in a relationship.  Or
    live with a 2yr old for a while - you'll figure it out naturally "Look
    honey, if you give momma that bottle of poison, I'll give you this nice
    lollipop!!??"
    
    In the previous story, "she" wanted to go out with her friends, and
    have a good time at the bar.  "He" forbid it.  She wanted him to be
    with her.  He wouldn't hear of going there.  Well, okay, she was
    hanging out at biker bars, with a tough crowd.  They ended up befriending 
    some couples, so now they can all go out.  She gets her "night out",
    and her man with her.  He gets to be with his wife, and they both go
    someplace that he's comfortable.
    
    She could have said "To hell with you - you can't tell me where to
    go!", but in the end she decided that her husband was more important
    than the biker bar.  Not that she doesn't miss it sometimes - she just
    has a different set of priorities now.  Working things out with her
    husband is her #1 priority.  And he with her.
    
    *BOTH* of you wanting to means that *BOTH* of you are willing to 'give'
    some of yourself, for the whole of the couple.  That means sometimes
    doing something that you sure don't want to do.  And vice versa.
    
    When I left my marriage, he wanted to work it out.  I wasn't that
    interested.  If we'd BOTH wanted to, there's no doubt in my mind (yeah,
    sure, NOW!! (-:) that we could have.  But we weren't both committed to it.
                            
    You really have to be in touch with what you want, what you need, and
    what you're willing to sacrifice.  Lay it ALL on the table, and work at
    it again and again from there.
    
    I just can't see a situation where you would both honestly WANT to work
    it out, that you couldn't.
    
    Am I shortsighted????
    
    

    	Not short-sighted, Patty, but maybe a little idealistic. I agree
    that a couple that works together and is determined to stay together
    can stay together, but depending on the circumstances, they won't
    necessarily both be happy doing so. If there are enough of these
    incompatibilities and differences, with two different people wanting
    different things and growing in different directions, then marriage
    becomes a huge pile of compromises. You share the same roof, have a
    couple of things you can talk about, try hard to do things together
    where one party really doesn't want to be doing it, and eventually,
    something breaks. In my first marriage, after many years of this, I was
    incredibly lonely and emotionally detached.
    	So I think some basic common things have to be there, and THEN if
    both parties are determined to make it work, they can.

    
    Well, I've certainly been called worse!! (-:  And I know that my
    undying optimism keeps me pounding my head against walls, saying to
    myself "THIS time will be better ...!"  That silly thing called Hope.
    
    One big thing I left out, is that I think you both need to really love
    each other.  If that's questionable, then you're never going to be
    happy to make much/any sacrifices without a lot of underlying resentment.
    
    Patty
    

I agree (mostly), but I'd add one more condition.  Other
conditions may be added as my life experience grows :-)

1) 2 partners need to understand their and each other's
   wants, needs, and areas of potential compromise

2) 2 partners both must love each other

3) 2 partners must want to be together

4) 2 partners must share fundamental values

5) (an attempt at wording STAR::DIPIRRO'S entry)
   2 partners must like some of the same activities --
   not all, and not necessarily at the same level
   of intensity

Ooops... guess it's time to go sign in now...