Conference tecrus::mormonism

     [the following press release was sent to me by my local Scout Council]


     NEWS

     The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints


     From Don LeFevre


     MORMONS MARK 75 YEARS AS SCOUTING SPONSOR



          SALT LAKE CITY, Utah -- The first Mormon Boy Scout troop was
     organized in Salt lake City's Waterloo Ward (congregation) in 1910 and
     three years later The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
     became the first organization to officially sponsor Scouting in
     America.

          Now, the Church is planning its 75th anniversary observance of
     that formal affiliation and on Sunday, February 14, 1988, thousands of
     Scouts and Scouters will gather at hundreds of locations throughout
     the country for a special televised-live-via-satellite "fireside", or
     commemoration program.

          Today the Church sponsors some 23,000 Scouting units, more than
     any other organization in the country.  There are more than 300,000
     Scouts and 120,000 Scouters in those units, and the majority of them
     are expected to view the satellite program.

          A crowd of some 6,000 will fill Salt Lake City's historic Mormon
     Tabernacle on Temple Square for the program, in which tribute will be
     paid to the Church by national BSA officials.

          The televised program will be transmitted live via satellite to
     some 1,800 Latter-day Saint stake centers, or church buildings, spread
     throughout every state.  Many thousands more Scouts and Scouters will
     be assembled at those locations to view the Salt Lake City program as
     part o their own local observances.

          President Ezra Taft Benson, the 88-year-old president of the
     6.5-million-member Church and former U.S.  Secretary of Agriculture,
     has been involved in Scouting for 68 years, is the proud holder of a
     Silver Buffalo among numerous other awards, and has also served on
     BSA's National Executive Board and the National Advisory Council.

          "It has been one of the choicest experiences in my life to serve
     in and participate in Scouting," said the Church leader, who as a
     young man served as Scoutmaster in the southeast Idaho hamlet of
     Whitney.  "Scouting is a great program for leadership training,
     teaching patriotism and love of country, and building strong
     character," he said.  "It is truly a noble program."

          President Benson's sentiments are echoed by another high
     Latter-day Saints official, Elder Vaughn J.  Featherstone, general
     president of the Young Men organization, which oversees the worldwide
     Scouting program of the Church.

          "The Boy Scouts of America is one of the great bastions of
     character development and preparation for manhood by a boy," Elder
     Featherstone said.  "the 75 years of a close association with the Boy
     Scouts of America has been a blessing to hundreds of thousands of
     Latter-day Saint young men in the world.  "It has been 75 glorious
     years of working hand in hand in one of the great youth programs ever
     inspired by God for man on the earth," he said.  "I love Scouting with
     all my heart."

          Elder Featherstone not only heads the Young Men organization,
     he's also a member of one of the Church's highest governing bodies,
     the First Quorum of the Seventy.  And he sits on the BSA National
     Executive Board.

          In commemoration of the anniversary, long time Utah Scouter Miles
     P.  Romney arranged for the design of a special uniform patch that
     recently was given an official stamp of approval by the Church and is
     available at the BSA Mormon relationships office, 525 Foothill Blvd.,
     Salt Lake City, Utah 84113.  The patch is available in 3- and 6-inch
     sizes, and there is a matching one-inch diameter pin.

          Scouting caught the interest of Mormon leaders as early as 1909
     after it was organized in England.  The following year that first
     troop was organized in the Waterloo Ward.

          Both the Explorer and Varsity Scout programs were born in Mormon
     units before being adopted by the National Council.  The Church
     inaugurated what it called the Vanguard program for boys 16-19 in
     1928.  The National Council adopted it, changed the name to Explorer
     Scouting, and the Church merged the Vanguards with the national
     program.

          After being independently initiated by a group of Mormon Scouters
     in Utah in 1972, the Varsity Scouting program for boys 14-16 underwent
     six years of developing and testing before being officially adopted by
     the National Council and the Church in 1983.

          Cub Scouting for boys 8-10 was adopted by the Church in 1953.
     The Church is not affiliated with the Tiger Cub program for boys under
     eight years of age.

          It is not necessary that boys in Mormon-sponsored Scouting units
     be Mormon.  In fact, there is a unit sponsored by a Latter-day Saints
     congregation in El Cajon, California, whose troop recently was 90
     percent non-Mormon.

          Many top leaders of the Church have traditionally served on the
     BSA National Executive Board, National Advisory Committee and on
     several other committees.  In addition to President Benson, several
     other top church leaders, including four other church presidents, have
     earned the highest honor in Scouting, the Silver Buffalo.  One of
     them, the late Spencer W.  Kimball, also received the Silver World
     Award from the international Scouting organization.

          General authorities of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
     Saints currently serving on national BSA boards or committees:
     National Executive Board--President Thomas S.  Monson (Silver
     Buffalo), second counselor in the Church's First Presidency; Elder
     Vaughn J.  Featherstone, member of the First Quorum of the Seventy and
     general president of the Young men organization; National Advisory
     Council--Elder Marion d.  Hanks and Elder Robert L.  Backman (Silver
     Buffalo), First Quorum of the Seventy; Dwan J.  Young, general
     president of the Primary, children's organization of the Church;
     national committees-- President Dwan J.  Young and her second
     counselor, Michaelene P.  Grassli; elder Rex D.  Pinegar and Elder
     Hartman rector, both of the first Quorum of the Seventy.  [End of
     press release]


     The patch has a large picture of Baden-Powell, founder of Scouting,
     with a small statue of the Angel Moroni and the traditional Scouting
     symbol to the left and right of BP, respectively.  The 6" patch is
     $5.00 each, the 3" patch is $2.00 each, and the 1" pins are $2.00
     each.  Sets of all three are $8.50 each.  Add $2.00 shipping for
     orders under $20.00 and $4.00 for orders above $20.00 order from
     Mormon Relationships, 525 Foothill Blvd., Salt Lake City, UT 84113,
     (801) 582-6000.

   re: 7.0 <CACHE::LEIGH>

   Allen,

       I was a Boy Scout (member of Troop 524, Livermore Falls, Maine) for 7
   years.  In all those years, I never once heard of Mormon Boy Scout Troops.
   How big of a percentage of the National Council would you say that they
   are?

   >Scouting caught the interest of Mormon leaders as early as 1909 after it
   >was organized in England.  The following year that first troop was
   >organized in the Waterloo Ward.

       Were the Mormons the first ones to introduce Boy Scouting to America?
   Also, why are the Mormons so heavily active in Boy Scouting; what is their
   steak of interest?  Also, what does it mean to sponsor a troop?

       Please, I am just curious and interested.

   In Christ,
   Tony
    

Re .1

Hi Tony,

>       I was a Boy Scout (member of Troop 524, Livermore Falls, Maine) for 7
>   years.  In all those years, I never once heard of Mormon Boy Scout Troops.
>   How big of a percentage of the National Council would you say that they
>   are?

Mormon scout troops are very common in the West where the LDS church is a
larger percentage of the area population.  As we could expect, since the Church
is still very much a minority in New England, so are LDS troops.  Most of the
LDS Wards (congregations) in Northern MA and Southern NH that I am familiar
with sponsor scout troops, so Mormon scouting is growing in this area.


>   >Scouting caught the interest of Mormon leaders as early as 1909 after it
>   >was organized in England.  The following year that first troop was
>   >organized in the Waterloo Ward.
>
>       Were the Mormons the first ones to introduce Boy Scouting to America?

No, the Mormons were not the first ones to introduce scouting to America.
I don't have my scout literature here, so I don't remember the name of the
gentleman who did bring scouting across the Atlantic.  It is my understanding
that the LDS church was the first religious organization to adopt scouting
as part of its youth program.  In addition, New England has always been a
strong-hold of scouting.  I see a lot of "50-year" patches on uniforms as I
go to monthly roundtable meetings at the Council; I think I remember seeing
patches for more than 50 years but I don't remember for sure.  A "50-year"
patch signifies that that troop has over 50 years of uninterrupted tenure
with BSA.


>   Also, why are the Mormons so heavily active in Boy Scouting; what is their
>   steak of interest?  Also, what does it mean to sponsor a troop?

If you recall the twelve points of the Scout Law (trustworthy, loyal, helpful,
friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrify, brave, clean, reverent)
you can see that those goals are very similar to the goals of any church.
Hence, scouting is a useful resource for any church, and historically churches
have been among the main sponsors of scout troops.

When an organization sponsors a troop (the word "sponsor" is BSA language),
it agrees to furnish a meeting place and possibly leadership.  Typical
organizations that do this are churches, schools, community organizations
such as fire stations, etc.  In the case of the LDS church, sponsoring a
troop is slightly different, because the Church has adopted scouting as its
primary activity organization for the age group.  Thus, within the Mormon
church, scouting is part of the church program as is Sunday School, etc.

Because of this, Mormon scouting is almost but not quite the same as other
scouting.  That is, the church has made a few changes in how the program
is implemented.  The primary changes are that we do not have Tiger Cubs and
that our eleven year old scouts do not do very much overnight camping.  The
requirements for rank advancements, of course, are the same, as is the uniform,
because those are controlled by BSA.

Nice to hear from you again, Tony!

Allen

One thing I would like to discuss with other Scouters is fund raising.



My troop has not done fund raising before, but I've suggested to the Scout

Committee that they should consider doing some.  I read the ads in SCOUTING,

so I have an idea of what is probably being done in non-LDS troops, but I'm

wondering what type of fund raising activities are being used in Church

sponsored troops?  How often?  How much Committee support vs Scoutmaster

support?  What is the money used for?



Allen

    I have never been to crazy about many of the fund raisers found
    in the scouting mag etc.  Too many of them end up on the shelves
    of peoples homes unused or just thrown away.   Some of the things
    we have done are:
    
    Pizza sales - We have a local pizza parlor (a good one) that will
    sell us uncooked pizzas that we in turn sell to people (I think
    we make about $1 per pizza) for about 4.95.  (I haven't done this
    one since I became scout master but will this month)  We do this
    apprx every other month.
    
    Groceries - One of the local grocery stores put aside part of their
    advertising budget to be sold by scouts (We get about one shot every
    1 - 2 years)  The people who purchase these certificates may spend
    them at the store as cash.  The scout troop gets to keep 10% of
    what they sell.  Another store we talked to would give us 1-2 %
    so it varies as to what the store will or won't do.
    
    Concessions - A local archery club is going to allow us to provide
    lunch and various other items at one of their major functions this
    spring.  All profits that we make we will be able to keep.
    
    Special Dinners - One that I heard of a ward doing in a city near
    here is a 'Special' dinner.  By that I mean Prime rib dinners, valet
    parking, etc.  They said that after they had done it a couple of
    years they sold all the tickets far in advance. (they only did it
    one day a year) They were able to make between 1500 and 2000 in
    on night.
    
    
    The previous scoutmaster used most of the money made from pizza
    sales to purchase troop equipment.  Currently I am inclined to let
    the boys who make the money us it for summer camp (about $85 this
    year)
    
    Others I have heard of are lightbulb sales, car washes, Pies, balloon
    bouquets on valentines day, Spagetti dinners.
    
    I try to let the committee do everything they will do!
    
    I would appreciate any other suggestions
    
    Russell

    Another fundraiser, one that has been used by a troop in Manchester
    with pretty good results, is to contact McDonalds or Burger King
    and sell "McDonald Dollars" or "Burger-King Bucks".  The deal is
    that the scouts sell one of these dollars to a customer for $1.00.
    The customer uses it at the appropriate fast-food outlet just like
    a dollar (except they don't give change on them, so you need to
    buy at least $1.00 worth of fast-food).  The troop gets to keep
    $0.40 of each "buck" they sell.
    
    The fast-food outlet gets advertising, the customer gets value for
    money (a buck worth a dollar costs just that), and the troop gets
    as much money as it is willing to work for.
    
    Bill Mortimer
    

    I am both the Scoutmaster and Deacon's Quorum Advisor for our ward
    in Colorado Springs.  It is much easier to have a cohesive program,
    but it *is* more work for me.  I have done it the other way, too
    (separate SM and Advisor) and prefer this approach.
    
    All of our activities have to satisfy a "Priesthood purpose".
    Sometimes that is as simple as building quorum brotherhood by doing
    something fun, but usually there is more to it.  If you compare
    the goals of the Young Men's Program with those of Scouting, you
    will find them to be very similar.  The Scouting goals are a little
    more general for obvious reasons.
    
    Even though we have a few boys who are not LDS in our Troop, my
    philosophy is that we are a Quorum first.  The SPL is also the Quorum
    President (if he was not a good Scout, he would not be the President!).
    I do not downplay "mormon principles and beliefs" for the non-members.
    There are plenty of community Troops around if they don't like it.
    
    It would be hard for an outside observer to know when we shift gears
    between quorum activities and troop activities except for the uniforms.
    PLC is combined with our quorum planning meeting.  Campfire programs
    on our outings always end with a spiritual thought and testimonies.
    Scoutmaster conferences are also PPI's.
    
    I have been a Scout leader for 11 years and have only developed
    this philosophy during the last year.  Before, I was not the Advisor
    and kept the Scouting part separate.  I feel that it is much more
    effective to combine as we have.
    
    Let's see, oh yeah -- money making.  We sell eggs.  Every two weeks,
    we call friends, neighbors, and members of the ward to get their
    egg orders.  We pick up flats of eggs from a chicken farm and deliver
    them to their doors.  We make $40 to $50 a month this way.  It takes
    the place of dues, cover awards, and pays for part of summer camp.
    We, too, are looking for better ways to make money.  The eggs help
    a *lot* though.
    
    -- Rex Fisher

    Please excuse my lack of Mormon knowledge.  I am not a Mormon and am
    just learning about the beliefs.
    
    Is there any affilliation with the Girl Scout program?  I was just
    wondering if there were LDS GS troops out there.  It sure would be nice
    to work with a troop that had some GENUINE good values/morals.  I get a
    few girls into my troop (high school girls), but for the most part they
    are lacking in good values/morals.  I try to institute these things
    into my program, but by the time they are 16.....
    
    Just wondering,
    Cheryl McGinty
    

    I don't know about GS.  But, most ward's have another program that
    provides a moral environment for the girls that has comparable
    activities (outings, training, awards and such).  Anyone care
    to elaborate?  I'm not as familiar with the Young Women's program.
    
    Steve

    Hi Cheryl,
    
    Welcome to the conference.
    
    The LDS church is a great sponsor of the Boy Scouts of America. In
    fact, I believe it was the first sponsor in the USA and remains the
    largest. The church does not officially sponsor the Girl Scouts.
    Exactly why, I don't know. However, as Steve said, our girls are
    involved in other programs that are designed to address their needs. I
    do know of LDS girls who have been in Girl Scouts and LDS adults who
    have been volunteer workers in the organization, but beyond that, I
    know little. 

    The programs that we have for the LDS girls include the following: 
                                                                
    Primary. This involves all of the youth under 12. They receive Sunday
    instruction and have opportunities to give prayers, talks, sing songs,
    and have occasional fun activities during the week. 
    
    Merrie Miss Program. This involves the 10-11 year old girls and is part
    of the Primary program. These girls have regular class activites during
    the week, in addition to the other Primary activities described above. 
    
    Young Women. When girls become 12, they graduate into Young Women from
    Primary. Here they continue to receive instruction on Sunday, they
    learn leadership responsibilities and they are involved in planning
    their weekly activities. These activities are designed to help them
    have fun and to learn important skills. Monthly there is a joint
    activity with the young men, and their are monthly dances for the youth
    from several wards (congregations). 
    
    There is a Young Women camp held for a week each year, for which the
    girls prepare and at which they learn many outdoor skills. Also, there
    is a "Personal Progress" program that the girls use to set and monitor
    their progress toward the achievement of goals and to receive awards.
    The Young Women program is focused on teaching the girls the important
    personal and moral values in life. 
    
    The girls are interviewed regularly by the bishop or one of his
    counselors, as are the boys. They are interviewed at the age of eight,
    when they are baptized, twice yearly after they reach twelve, and other
    times as needed. Also, they are interviewed as needed by their Young
    Women leaders, who are adult women. These interviews are designed to
    encourage the girls to keep the commandments and to set worthy goals
    for themselves. They also help to pinpoint problems that the girls may
    be having and to help them in any way that would be helpful. 
    
    Hopefully you will find this interesting.
    
    In Christ's Love,
    Rich
                                                                

    re .-1, .-2
    
    Hmmm.   Thanks for the information.  It's all very interesting.
    
    Have a great day!,
    Cheryl 
    

    Hi Cheryl,
    
    As Rich said the LDS Church is an active sponsor of the Boy Scouts,
    but does not sponser Girl scout troops.  As i understand it the
    reason comes from the relationship the church requests of the
    organization.  In the Boy Scouts the church is responsible for
    selecting, replacing, etc the troop leaders as well as the general
    area that the troop will include (although that part is not so
    critical).
      As I understand it the GSA will not allow the local sponsor to
    select the troop leadership, reserving that right for the local
    GSA council instead.
      The church feels it very important to select the people who will
    be working with our youth and so have never used the GSA program
    as an official church sponsered program.  If an individual girl
    wishes to participate, thats fine, and my sister and wife have both
    been involved in running GSA camps.  But, as far as the program
    in which all the girls in the church will participate, because of
    the problem in who chooses the leaders the church runs its own program.
    
    
    Hope this helps,
    Russell Murray

As a scouter in Phoenix and New England, I've had problems with Dads
attending campouts.  It seems most Dads like to tell their sons what to
do instead of letting the boys discover things for themselves.  "That's
not the way to build a fire", "Tie your rope this way", "It's starting
to rain, put your poncho on", etc.  I think the Dads must treat their
sons that way at home and do it during the campout as normal behavior
between them and their sons.

One of my important goals in scouting is to help the boys learn to think
for themselves and to make decisions about their own lives and then be
held accountable for those decisions.  I try and teach the boys "principles
of righteousness", er principles of scouting that is, and then step back and
let the boys experiment with it and learn from their experiences.  It really
bothers me when the Dads step in and dominate their boys. 

I talk with the Dads before the campouts and ask them to stay in the background
so their sons can have freedom to learn, but it doesn't do much good; the
Dads still tell their sons what to do.  As a result, I almost never invite
or encourage Dads to come camping with us (I feel the boys having freedom to
learn and discover for themselves is more important than Father-son
companionship during the campouts).

I'm wondering how other scouters handle this problem?

Allen

    
    
    Allen,
    
       I agree with you.100% about letting the boys learn by
    experience,and,not telling them everything to do. This also applies
    quite well in general. A lot of parents want to do everything for them
    and,in so doing,they become dependant,not learning how to deal with
    real life.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    Don't forget that parents of both sexes tend to exert more control
    over their children in public than they do at home.  I'm not sure
    if it's personal pride (of which we know the dangers) so much as
    a desire to help the child appear in the best light.
    
    I know I have been guilty of this: e.g. my youngest daughter sometimes
    visits me at work.  A co-worker may buy her a treat, upon which Becca
    comes to me all aglow (yes, at 14) and says, "Look, Mom, so-and-so bought
    me this package of Junior Mints!"  My response?  "Did you say thank
    you?" or "Well, tell her/him thank you!"  Her reaction?  Shutdown.
    Really, I know she knows to say thank you (after all, she had a
    great teacher!) but I so want her to make good impressions - sigh.
    
    A thought for scouting events: assign dads to work with other dads'
    sons...  And remember - and remind your scouts - how very fortunate 
    they are to have a father (yes, even an interfering one) who cares 
    enough to participate.  I wish my son had been so blessed.
              
    Regards,
    aq
              

    
    
    	As an ex-Scoutmaster and a current Cubmaster and also an active
    father, I have mixed feelings about getting parents to go along on
    campouts.
    
    	As a scoutmaster, I want the active support of the parents and
    now there is a rule that there must be at least two adults on any
    outing.  I also want the participation of the parents in setting
    goals and creating a three month plan, so that there are no surprises
    and that the boys' needs are met (I rarely got this).
    
    	As a father, I want watch my and help my children grow.  This
    can sometimes become an overzealous and overprotective blanket.  I've
    seen parents ride really hard on their own kids and take all the fun
    out of camping.
    
    The one thing that really helped was the Scout Leadership Basic Training.
    It is an eight hour course that teaches the leaders how to lead.  There
    was a short film set with the scenario of a scoutmaster telling the
    boys how to do everything and getting very frustrated contrasted with
    a wise scoutmaster who let the boys experience scouting for themselves
    and was there as a resource.  If you can get the parents to attend
    Basic Training .....
    
    				Tom v

    Hi everyone!
    
    I thought I would enter this note here as it pertains to LDS Scouting.
    Maybe some of you have some ideas for me.
    
    I am an Eagle Scout and I love scouting immensely. I have had callings
    as an Ass't Scoutmaster and Cubmaster. In my current ward in San Diego
    I have been serving as the Scoutmaster for almost 2 years. I have 4
    boys of my own (oldest a Webelos) and hope they have a good scouting
    future.
                                                
    
    There are several things about the way the church *does* Scouting that
    really bother me. If I can't resolve my thinking regarding them, then
    when my oldest son turns 11 I will resign and my son and I will join a
    non-denomination troop that *does* Scouting.
    
    Here are my conserns... I have a "testimony" of Scouting but *not* a
    "testimony" of LDS Scouting. 
    
    1. CHURCH DIVISION OF SCOUTING BASED ON QUORUM AGES.
    
    I really have problems with Scouting being *divided* between Deacons,
    Teachers and Priests (and Primary-Blazers). Our Ward is not too large
    since we split a year ago. So, there are many jobs but few people. We
    could have ONE scout committee, but NO, the church says have 3! We
    would be LUCKY to get enough people (interersted/qualified/able) to
    staff one committee! I have heard the argument that older boys DON'T
    want to "associate" with younger boys... Funny though, I have ONLY
    heard this argument from ADULTS! Essentially the church makes Scouting
    mandatory for young men. It is THE program... Well the result of this
    attitude is that some boys are *forced* to participate and they rebel
    and wreak havoc in troop meetings. Another result is that my troop has
    few *mature* boys to serve as leaders. (a 13 year old does NOT have
    enough scouting experience to serve as an SPL!) I don't CARE if he is
    the Deacons Q. President! It doesn't take "inspiration" to serve as an
    SPL... It takes Scouting knowledge and experience and WILLINGNESS to
    learn and to lead (hard to achieve at 13)! Another result is SMALL
    troops. Small is fine with me, but TOO SMALL is bad. Patrol method is
    one of the 3 basic tenents of Scouting (from B.P. others are Outdoor
    Activities and Advancement). With too few boys, it is difficult to have 
    patrols and fill the leadership core. Each year at summer-camp, it is
    very embarrassing to wittness the non-LDS troops that look so sharp and
    know their Scouting! The LDS boys who want to do Scouting are held back
    by the teasing and jeers of their Quorum members who are only
    participate in Scouting because they "have to". ANOTHER problem, is
    that lack of "association" with older boys does not help them follow
    the trail to Eagle. When a 15-18 year old boy attains Eagle, that boy
    has little or no influence on the boys in the troop! This is WRONG!
    That boy should be a role model and help influence the younger boys...
    It's very hard to do when few if any Scout functions bring them
    together. For over a year, our Varsity Coach absolutly would NOT hold
    any joint activities with the troop. We both ran in-effective
    committies because we competed for the few resources our ward had to
    offer! His rationale was that the boys wanted it that way (see above)
    and that was the church's policy... Fortunately, he resigned and the
    new coach prefers to work together. In fact we have a joint committee
    now and about 6-7 planned joint activities (back-packing trips, etc).
    It is CLEAR that the boys didn't care if we did this. In fact, our old
    coach did few *fun* activities and my boys graduating have asked if
    they can STILL continue with the troop! (They don't want to miss the
    Rock climbing and rappelling, the backpacking, the cycle trips, etc)!
    
    2. SCOUTMASTER BURN-OUT
    
    For some of the reasons above (lack of adult support and participation)
    most LDS Scoutmasters are trying to do more than their share themselves.
    It's a *calling*, or I'm only doing this until my son gets out are
    other reasons that LDS Scoutmasters serve such short terms. I remember
    my Scoutmaster Fred... I think he served 20 years or more and had a
    couple dozen Eagles to his credit! I have heard that the average LDS
    tenure is 6 months. Scoutmasters should be there because the *really*
    want to not because they feel "obligated" to say yes when called. (I
    have had several of these types for ASM's... They say yes to the person 
    making the calling, but when I tell them that they need training, a 
    uniform, to come on campouts and activities, etc, they just
    dissappear.) 
    
    NOW SOME OF MY IDEAS...
    
    I think that Scouting should be fun and all boys should be encouraged
    to participate. BUT IF THE BOY DOESN'T WANT TO OR DISPLAYS BEHAVIOR
    THAT IS OVERLY DISSRUPTING THEN HE SHOULDN'T BE INCLUDED IN SCOUT
    ACTIVITIES!  We have 3-4 Deacons who now aren't in Scouts. The troop
    functions MUCH better.
    
    Varsity Scouting should be done away with. My goal is to destroy the
    Varsity program by having an excellent Scouting program. If my boys go
    on to "Varsity" but still come on troop outings and associate with the
    younger boys it helps me encourage boys advancement, leadership and
    continuation in Scouting. The mature boys help set a better tone in the
    troop and the younger boys pick it up.
    
    Wards should have ONE Scouting Committee only! This should cover 11-18
    year old boys who want to do Scouting. Leaders should be volunteers if
    possible rather then "conscripts". It is hard enough getting a good
    committee together. Getting 3 (4 including Cubs) is impossible. Before,
    when our wards Varsity was independent, I had a very difficult time
    getting another adult for 2-deep leadership on campouts. Now, with the
    Varsity Coach (Assistant Scoutmaster - Varsity) along, we are nicely
    covered!
    
    Exploring should be done at a Stake level. I have NEVER seen a ward
    exploring post work. When 75% of the 16-18 yr old boys are working,
    playing sports or chasing girls, that usually leaves 1-2 boys that
    could benefit from Exploring. At a stake level, enough boys AND leaders
    could be brought together to make a viable program! I have read about
    posts that do some really great things! Their sponsors are hospitals,
    airlines, sporting stores (like REI). It is the *exception* if an LDS
    exploring unit does ANY exploring!
    
    My belief is that Scouting enhances a boys life experience and helps
    him learn lessons that will serve him through his life. It also
    inculcates values that we believe in. It is NOT an "extention" of the
    Deacon's Quorum! It is a valuable tool used to augment the young mens
    program. 1 year ago, I was *sure* that on my son's 11 year old b-day
    that I would leave the troop and we would join a Kiwanis troop. Now,
    I'm about 50% sure, because I have seen some changes in our wards
    program. Like my Scoutmaster Fred, I'm a lifer... although it may not
    be in an LDS troop. I would prefer it, but we'll see. Right now, I'm
    watching a friend struggle to make a troop run with the 3 boys in his
    Deacon's Q. To me LDS Scouting needs to undergo some fundamental
    changes. Our last stake Pres was a silver beaver and really supported
    Scouting. Now, our stake Pres is very unsupportive. I am considering
    putting my ramblings into some coherent form and sending them to
    Brother Featherstone. LSD Scouting is rapidly going down the tubes.
    
    This may not get much response, but I thought I would try here first
    before I try the gentile Scouting notesfile (just kidding 8^).
    
    Any thoughts bro's?
    
    Frustrated Scoutmaster of Troop 603                                

>    There are several things about the way the church *does* Scouting that
>    really bother me.

I'm on your side!  I'm also very bothered by Bishops who insist on blindly
following the handbook.  The handbook is to be only a guide.

>    1. CHURCH DIVISION OF SCOUTING BASED ON QUORUM AGES.
>    
>    I really have problems with Scouting being *divided* between Deacons,
>    Teachers and Priests (and Primary-Blazers).

The new BSA program is ideal for LDS troops--patrols based on age groups and
dedicated ASM for each patrol.  I've been in Church scouting for about 20
years, and fortunately my Bishops have felt that all ages should be in one
troop with common activities.  It is important that the different age groups
have separate activities some of the time, i.e. patrol campouts & activities,
but I get the whole troop together at least quarterly for council (non-lds)
camporees.  In both Phoenix and New England I've had good success having the
Blazers come on the Saturday portion of our campouts.

>    Essentially the church makes Scouting
>    mandatory for young men. It is THE program... Well the result of this
>    attitude is that some boys are *forced* to participate and they rebel
>    and wreak havoc in troop meetings. 

This can be a problem.  My solution has been to only register the boys who
want to advance towards Eagle.  The other boys are not registered but still
participate in outdoor activities--since the Ward has its own insurance we
have the "freedom" to have participation without BSA registration.

>     Another result is that my troop has
>    few *mature* boys to serve as leaders. (a 13 year old does NOT have
>    enough scouting experience to serve as an SPL!) I don't CARE if he is
>    the Deacons Q. President!

During the '70's the Church did require that the Deacons Pres be SPL (and
the Deacons advisor be SM) but that is no longer a requirement.  The 1985
handbook (green) gives the Bishop the freedom to depart from that; I've
never had a Deacon as SPL, and I've never been SM and Deacons Advisor at
the same time.

>    troops. Small is fine with me, but TOO SMALL is bad. Patrol method is
>    one of the 3 basic tenents of Scouting (from B.P. others are Outdoor
>    Activities and Advancement). With too few boys, it is difficult to have 
>    patrols and fill the leadership core. Each year at summer-camp, it is
>    very embarrassing to wittness the non-LDS troops that look so sharp and
>    know their Scouting! The LDS boys who want to do Scouting are held back

I've always had small troops and prefer that so I can give more individual
attention to the boys.  My troop has always had a good reputation in both the
Stake and the Council.  My troops usually have 10-15 boys.

>    by the teasing and jeers of their Quorum members who are only
>    participate in Scouting because they "have to". ANOTHER problem, is
>    that lack of "association" with older boys does not help them follow
>    the trail to Eagle. When a 15-18 year old boy attains Eagle, that boy
>    has little or no influence on the boys in the troop! This is WRONG!
>    That boy should be a role model and help influence the younger boys...

If I have a boy who does not want to advance in scouting and does not want
to participate in the outdoor activities, I turn him over to the Bishopric
and let them worry about him--I refuse to baby sit boys during Mutual. One
time I went home from Mutual and left all of the boys in the care of the
Bishopric.  The boys got the message and began behaving appropriately for
aaronic priesthood holders.

>    It's very hard to do when few if any Scout functions bring them
>    together. For over a year, our Varsity Coach absolutly would NOT hold
>    any joint activities with the troop.

There seems to be confusion in your ward.  For the past almost two years,
Varsity scouting has been part of the troop--the "coach" is an ASM.  If
your ward is still clinging to the old program, it needs to wake up!!!


>    2. SCOUTMASTER BURN-OUT
>    
>    For some of the reasons above (lack of adult support and participation)
>    most LDS Scoutmasters are trying to do more than their share themselves.
>    It's a *calling*, or I'm only doing this until my son gets out are
>    other reasons that LDS Scoutmasters serve such short terms. I remember
>    my Scoutmaster Fred... I think he served 20 years or more and had a
>    couple dozen Eagles to his credit! I have heard that the average LDS
>    tenure is 6 months. Scoutmasters should be there because the *really*
>    want to not because they feel "obligated" to say yes when called. (I
>    have had several of these types for ASM's... They say yes to the person 
>    making the calling, but when I tell them that they need training, a 
>    uniform, to come on campouts and activities, etc, they just
>    dissappear.) 
    
This is a problem because the Bishops make it one.  A bishop can take any
worthy person and make him/her a teacher, or leader, but he can not take
any worthy man and make him an effective SM.  Next to the Bishop, the SM
is the busiest man in the ward, and I'm assuming he is not a Quorum advisor.
He not only has to love working with youth, but he has to enjoy the outdoors,
(camping in sub-zero weather for example).  Those men are few and far
between, and Bishops need to give highest priority to finding and keeping
them--releasing them from ANY calling to put them in as SM.  Bishops who
refuse to do this will have a poor program with the burnout you spoke of.

I've been in New England for 16 years and have been SM or Blazer leader for
10 of those years, and I love it!  I say this not to brag but just to put
the point over that some people do like to be Scouters, and Bishops need to
look for them.  During the past four years, my troop conducted the Protestant
religious service at Council camporees four times because no minister was
available, so scouting is also a great missionary effort (at least here in
New England).


>    I think that Scouting should be fun and all boys should be encouraged
>    to participate. BUT IF THE BOY DOESN'T WANT TO OR DISPLAYS BEHAVIOR
>    THAT IS OVERLY DISSRUPTING THEN HE SHOULDN'T BE INCLUDED IN SCOUT
>    ACTIVITIES!  We have 3-4 Deacons who now aren't in Scouts. The troop
>    functions MUCH better.
    
Amen, brother!

>    Varsity Scouting should be done away with. My goal is to destroy the
>    Varsity program by having an excellent Scouting program. If my boys go
>    on to "Varsity" but still come on troop outings and associate with the
>    younger boys it helps me encourage boys advancement, leadership and
>    continuation in Scouting. The mature boys help set a better tone in the
>    troop and the younger boys pick it up.
    
BSA did away with it almost two years ago.  Varsity Scouting is now part of
the troop activities, and it shouldn't be allowed to dominate the troop.
Keep in mind, that you as SM are considered by BSA as the troop executive.
According to the 1985 church handbook, you report directly to the Bishopric,
not to the YM president, so you are responsible for the whole boy scouting
program in your Ward--blazers, and all ages of AP.  You may need to be more
assertive with your Bishopric about doing what is best for the boys and not
being a slave to a handbook!  If your Bishop doesn't like you being asertive
then he can release you and suffer the results--get in there and fight for
what you think should be done, "fight" in a kind, Christlike way of course.

>    Wards should have ONE Scouting Committee only! This should cover 11-18
>    year old boys who want to do Scouting. Leaders should be volunteers if
>    possible rather then "conscripts". It is hard enough getting a good
>    committee together. Getting 3 (4 including Cubs) is impossible. Before,
>    when our wards Varsity was independent, I had a very difficult time
>    getting another adult for 2-deep leadership on campouts. Now, with the
>    Varsity Coach (Assistant Scoutmaster - Varsity) along, we are nicely
>    covered!
    
I agree completely!  BTW, I've never been in a ward in Phoenix or New
England that had more than one committee for boy scouts.

>    Exploring should be done at a Stake level. I have NEVER seen a ward
>    exploring post work. When 75% of the 16-18 yr old boys are working,
>    playing sports or chasing girls, that usually leaves 1-2 boys that
>    could benefit from Exploring. At a stake level, enough boys AND leaders
>    could be brought together to make a viable program! I have read about
>    posts that do some really great things! Their sponsors are hospitals,
>    airlines, sporting stores (like REI). It is the *exception* if an LDS
>    exploring unit does ANY exploring!
    
I agree with you, but that is a battle I waged and lost in Phoenix.  Here in
New England, our Stake is too spread out to make it work.  New England doesn't
do much with exploring, but all town troops have boys until they reach 18.

>    changes. Our last stake Pres was a silver beaver and really supported
>    Scouting. Now, our stake Pres is very unsupportive. I am considering
>    putting my ramblings into some coherent form and sending them to
>    Brother Featherstone. LSD Scouting is rapidly going down the tubes.
    
Then ignore your Stake President and get your Bishop's support to do it the
way that best helps the boys.  I boycott my Stake scout activities and go to
my Council activities.  I do go to Stake campouts once in a while when they
don't conflict with Council campouts or with my own outdoor program, but I
never go to Stake Courts of Honor since we hold our own.

I also prefer to go to our own  summer camp rather than to the Stake summer
camp, because the Stake combines all wards into one troop and I want to keep
my troop functioning as a unique group. I think it is undesirable to have your
troop function all year and then have to merge it with a Stake troop for
summer camp.

Thanks for opening up this topic.  Maybe others will share their views....

Allen

I've been thinking about your question, "Does LDS scouting work?", and I
think it depends on how flexible the Bishops and Stake Presidenst are--whether
they are willing to find a solution for their ward that works vs following
the book blindly.

Because our church is led by a prophet, we tend to think that every policy
from SLC is for us and we tend to become slaves to handbooks.  We forget that
the brethren aren't inspired 100% of the time and that the Lord is allowing
them to grow in their callings through learning from experience and feedback
from the field.

For example: one policy I've had problems with was the requirement for the
On My Honor award that a boy had to be active in a church troop.  I've had
active LDS boys in my ward who were active in their town troop (to understand
this you have to understand the New England culture--each town has one or
more troops that "are scouting" in that town.  I think it is great when LDS
boys want to be in the town troop instead of the ward troop, because they
have great missionary opportunities; one LDS father is the chaplain of the
town troop, having been chosen for that because he is a Mormon Priesthood
holder).  But policy would not let these boys get the Award because they 
weren't in a church troop.  In effect, the award was for service to the
church troop instead of scouting activity.  Finally, the brethren in SLC
realized what the world outside of Utah is like, and they omitted that
requirement--the handbook hasn't been changed yet, but I was told by the
Secretary of the General Aaronic Priesthood committee that the requirement
was dropped. 

Handbooks and policies are like the Sabbath day--made for man not man made
for them.  If Bishops and Stake Leaders will prayerfully and wisely adapt
policies to local conditions such that the goals of the Church are met, then
Church scouting can be successful.

The new BSA Troop organization answers *MANY* of the problems you 
mentioned.  The organization includes:
- A "New Scout" patrol, with its own Patrol Leader, but with a 
  Troop Guide, an older scout, to act as a mentor, and as an advisor 
  to the PL.  A Scout will be in the New Scout patrol until he is 
  First Class, or a year, whichever comes first.  (*VERY* similar to 
  the Blazer program.)
- A "traditional" troop organization for Scouts in the 12-13 year age 
  group.  One Asssistant Scoutmaster works with these boys.  The 
  emphasis is on advancement.
- A Venture Patrol for boys (probably 14-15) who want and need a more 
  demanding outdoor program.  One Assistant Scoutmaster works with the 
  Venture program.
- A Varsity Patrol for boys (probably 16-17) who are interested in 
  sports.  As with the others, one Assistant Scoutmaster works with 
  this group.
There is *ONE* Scoutmaster for the whole Troop program, and *ONE* 
Troop Committee for thw whole Troop program (which covers boys age 11 
through 17).  The does not do anything for those involved in Cub 
Scouting.  As always, the Pack Committee is different from the Troop 
Committee.  While the "Church Scouting" handbook hasn't yet been 
updated to include these change, I think the church was most likely 
very influential in getting them adopted by BSA.

A comment on being both Deacon's Quorum Advisor and Scoutmaster.  I 
have been a Scoutmaster twice and both times started out as DQ Advisor 
as well.  The first time (about 9 boys, some very challenging) it was 
NOT a good experience for me and I asked to be released from one of 
them.  I was released as the DQ Advisor and remained as Scoutmaster.  
The second time (about 6 boys) I found it to be a very rewarding 
experience and I felt that the time I spent with the boys during the 
week helped to reinforce the Sunday lessons, and I used the Sunday 
lessons to reinforce the Scouting ideals I talked about during the week.  
I also felt that I got to know the boys better by having both callings 
than I would have if I had either one by itself.  In all honesty, I must 
admit that I think I was on a higher spiritual plane the second time, 
but I'm not sure that was the real difference.  The group size and my 
ability to deal with them was also different.

It is interesting to see how "support" from the Bishop can be so 
different for different Bishops.  Several years ago our Bishop was
very supporting of Scouting and thought that when we participated in
a District or Council event that included Sunday camping what we 
should stay to the end, then attend church in the ward which met in 
the afternoon (New England ward what was split, but no building for
the other ward at the time).  Our current Bishop is an Eagle Scout.
He is very interested in the Scouts and making sure that the Scouting
program delivers a very high quality program.  His feeling is that
(as it says in the "green book") it is not appropriate for LDS Scouts
to break camp on the Sabbath.

When I went to Basic Scoutmaster Training I stayed overnight, but made
arrangements to leave early enough on Sunday that I could make my
meetings on time.  When our Troop's current leaders attended Basic
Scoutmaster Training they had to make arrangements not to stay overnight
so as not to have to break camp on the Sabbath.

Another (Scouting) example of how different people can come to different
conclusions *AND BOTH BE RIGHT* comes from my Woodbacge experience.  I
had decided, on my own, that I would wear the long pants uniform.  
Another endowed brother, in consultation with the Bishop, decided to
consider Woodbadge as a sporting event and thus be able to wear the 
shorts pants uniform which is the traditional Woodbadge uniform.  I think
I was right for me and I think he was right for him.

I got into Scouting, as an adult, because my boys were in it and I was 
called to participate.  I stayed in Scouting because I enjoy the 
association of the adult Scouters.  My youngest "scout" son in now 23
and I am still involved in Scouting.  I turly enjoy the Scouting program
and the fine people I meet through it and in it.

My comments about SM being or not being a Quorum advisor should be read
from the viewpoint of time.  A Quorum advisor should meet one-on-one with
the Quorum pres to help him get ready for his meetings.  The advisor should
meet with the Quorum presidency as they plan for the weekly meeting and
other events.  The quorum advisor has to prepare a weekly lesson, and he
gives it in the quorum meeting.  He may spend time with the Quorum secretary
helping him.  Also time for service projects, phone calls, etc.  A very
busy job.

Similarly, a SM should meet one-on-one with the SPL to assist him.  Then
meet with the TLC.  Then meet in the weekly troop meeting.  Attend roundtable
once a month.  Go overnight camping once a month.  One week at camp in
the summer.  Monthly committee meetings.  Numerous phone calls.  I estimated
one time that a good SM spends at least 25% of his non-working, non-sleeping
time in scouting.  A very heavy time commitment.

I think a man who tries to be both, needs to be a super-human, and for this
reason I prefer to be SM but not simulataneously an advisor.  The 1985
handbook does allow this separation.

A more important reason for this separation is that the SM is over the whole
troop, including Blazers, Deacons, Teachers, Priests, Adults, non-LDS, etc.
I think that on Sunday he needs to be free to visit all of the Aaronic
Priesthood Quorums and Blazer class rather than be dedicated to one as advisor.
I do think he needs to be involved with the AP/Blazers on Sunday, rather than
with the MP, but I think it needs to be in a secondary way that requires less
time.

I recognize that many men have a different viewpoint, and that is fine.

Just my thoughts...

Allen

I thought I'd express my personal view about Sunday scouting.

The 1985 handbook states that Sunday camping should not occur, including
summer camp.  In general, I agree with that.  There are situations, however,
in which I make exceptions.

1.  Summer camp.  In New England, camp activity begins after breakfast on
Monday, and if a LDS troop is using that day per the handbook for travel, then
they will miss the first day.  That will make it difficult for the boys to
complete their merit badges, as well as complicate the relationship between
LDS and non LDS leaders at camp.  Basically, I think that if we attend a 
non-LDS camp, we do it on the camp's schedule.  My Bishops & Stake leaders
have supported this view, both in Phoenix and New England.

2.  Monthly campouts.  I break camp on Saturday, usually Saturday afternoon,
so we'll be home to get ready for church.  We camp over Friday night.  If
we attend a Council camporee that has an interesting program Saturday evening,
we'll stay for that and then go home, but usually we're home by supper time.
My Council doesn't do anything worthwhile on the Sunday portion of camporees
(breakfast & break camp), so we aren't missing anything important.

3.  Training.  Training provided by the Council is usually a one-time thing,
such as basic training, wood badge, winter camping, OA, etc.  As an individual,
I have no problem with camping over Saturday night and finishing the training
with the group.  I have this attitude because the training is a one-time thing,
and I consider that training to be part of my church service and very
important.  However, I think that each person should make their own decision
about this, and I've known of people who left the training early so they 
wouldn't be gone on Sunday.  If the training were to be a regular thing and
be on Sunday, for example monthly roundtables, then I wouldn't participate
in it.  My roundtables are on home evening night, and I attend them even
though it is Monday.  In my mind, the "sacredness" of Monday evening is much
less than that of Sunday.

Allen

    I haven't seen the "new scouting" program that was mentioned, but I
    would like to "defend" LDS Scouting as it has been defined over the
    last 25 years.
    
    First, one must consider that the LDS program is planned and designed
    to benefit ALL the boys in the ward, while the community programs are
    for those boys that are interested.
    
    Second, the LDS program is to benefit the BOYS, not look good. Some
    community programs tend to lean more to the look good side as a matter
    of pride for the leaders.
    
    In any scouting program, the Leaders Make the Difference. This is no
    less the case in the church.  If the bishopric call someone to scouting
    and then ignore him, it is not likely to work.  If they call someone to
    scouting without giving them a clear idea of the responsibility then
    they are not doing it correctly. When you get an ASM he should already
    know about things like wearing the uniform and going on campouts and
    the time commitment involved. If that is not happening, then work with
    your YM pres and make sure he understands, then he should train the
    bishopric or else go on the calls along with the member of the
    bishopric. ( I have done so in such a position ).  
    
    The choice of persons should be given VERY great fasting and prayer. I
    had a time when I recommended a strong active returned Missionary as
    Explorer leader (I was YM Supt. - this was years ago) and both he and I
    were very greatful that he moved from the ward in a few months. On the
    other hand in that same ward we called a man that had just moved in
    that had been totally inactive in his previous ward to the calling
    next. It was wonderful. Yes it took hours of talking to him and helping
    him understand the position and how he could do it before he even
    accepted the call, but he was Explorere advisor for years and did a
    wonderful job.
    
    After the call is made with inspiration and lots of information, then
    there is LOTS more to do. Woodbadge and Cornerstone Training (anyone
    remember that? I still think it is very valuable) are still only the
    beginning. A good roundtable (possibly held by the stake in areas of
    high concentration of LDS) is also very important. A good committee is
    essential, whether it is one or four to a ward is a function of the
    number of boys and size of activities. BUT NEVER should there not be a
    close contact between the YM organization and the SM and the Bishopric.
    Think of it as on going training as well as the way that you can really
    focus on the goal which is helping the young men of the ward.
    
    The patrol method is very important, and sometimes in small troops it
    can be difficult, but creativity and inspiration can provide some very
    god solutions.
    
    joint acitivities with the other boys can be good especially for
    smaller troops, but by and large, I prefer joint acitivities with boys
    of similar ages, ie other troops even if they are non-LDS. 
    
    I was in Utah and introduced to Varsity when it was first brought out.
    I got so excited. This is truly a great program. It was not designed to
    meet BSA's needs, it was designed to meet the needs of boys in the
    church. Unfortunately it did not flourish like I wish it would have
    done. That is not because it was wrong. Where leaders really helped
    make it an exciting program, it brought back and maintained church
    activity in boys that really needed it. It also provided for boys to
    continue on in their scouting progress but that takes even more adult
    support. There was nothing there to prohibit the older boys that had
    such a skill and need, from helping as leaders to the troop, but part
    of it's plan was to make way so there could be 13 year old SPLs that
    could do a good job.  Yes indeed a 13 year old can be a VERY GOOD SPL,
    but not without a lot of help and trainig, but remember the purpose
    again is for the boys. The older leaders should be half-way in the
    shadows, so the younger ones can grow and develop.
    
    All this talk about leaders must be taken in light of the "Shadow
    Leadership" concept. The time that the SM and ASM spend should be
    focused on making the boy leaders effective not in taking charge in
    front of the troup.  The older boys that have an interest could be
    assigned to mentor patrols for instance, thereby helping to free up
    some time of the SM.
    
    Varsity should offer exciting activities that lift the vision, of the
    boys, help them begin to believe that they can do great things. I thing
    "Operation On Target" is a great example of this. Lots more can be done
    on a smaller scale too.
    
    Exploring in my experience has really lagged in the church in the last
    many years, but that does not make it wrong. it is just that we have
    lost the vision of "Exploring into Manhood". A good Exploring program
    is one that helps the young men hone the leadership skills that they
    developed starting out as 12 and 13 year old PLs and SPLs. It should
    also help them develop their social skills and get a clearer insight
    into the possibilities of the many carreers ahead of them. The program
    works but tooo often we just let themn slide by.  about 15 years ago
    when I was an Explorer Advisor, the first thing i did was take the
    boy leaders on an overnight that was just them and I. We enjoyed the
    hills, but then we sat around the campfire and really let them know
    what their responsibilities are. It was great and they took hold with a
    real care for their bretheren. This kind of leadership training makes
    wonderful, missionaries, fathers, elders q presidients, bishops and
    etc.
    
    LDS Scouting can and does work very well. It is for the training and
    development of ALL the young men in the ward (not just the ones that
    like camping) and gets there by letting the boys really reach out for
    their peers as individuals with individual interests and needs. In the
    precess it builds Faith, Testimony, Leadership, well ... it BUILDS MEN
    of God.
    
    Sorry if this was a bit of a soap box. I have served in most posisiton
    over the years from SM, through High Councilman in charge of the Young
    Men's program. I have been in Utah and also 12 years in New England. I
    am now in Arizona and only watching at a distance. I also grew up in
    Scouting in AZ and Utah. I have seen lots of successes and lots of not
    so successful ones. I even was a special representative from the
    District in California to make a last effort to revive and maintain a
    troop in the community (it did not work out).  I have seen some very
    sharp non LDS units too. Like most anything Scouting is what you make
    it. I for one am convinced that BSA is a much better organization for
    all the help, leadership programs and ideas that the church has
    contributed to it. I saw Scouting in Chile while a missionary there,
    and while the church was trying to breath real life into and
    organization that had become almost all form and show. (too bad I do
    not know how it turned out).  May we all love and work for scouting and
    for all the good it can do, but please don't let it become more than
    your testimony of the church. Also please be a helper not a detractor
    of your local leaders. If they do things that you don't agree with talk
    to them, make suggestions, offer to help, but in the end follow the
    leadership of the person who has that responsibility. Neither scouting
    nor the church teach rebellion and anarchy.
    
    May the Lord bless us all in this wonderful work,
    
    Your brother,
    
    Len
     

Hi Len,

Thanks for your nice comments!

>    I haven't seen the "new scouting" program that was mentioned

The new program was introduced by BSA two years ago, and it is a direct
parallel to the church program of years past--with one exception.  That
exception is that Varsity scouting is now to be part of the troop rather
than a separate entity.  I was told by my District Ex that the new program
was adapted from the Mormon program, and the parallels with it are so great
that I think he was right.

As explained in previous replies, the new program has patrols organized by
age groups, a parallel to our priesthood quorums.  New scouts remain in a
special patrol until they get First Class, a parallel to our Blazer
program.  There is an ASM dedicated to each patrol, a parallel to our
quorum advisors.  Older scouts can be mentors (called Guides) to the new
scouts; no parallel to the Church in this but certainly within the spirit
of the Priesthood.  Individual patrols are encouraged to have patrol
activities separate from the troop (that has always been part of the BSA
program), a parallel to quorum activities.  The troop has troop-level
activities, a parallel to Aaronic Priesthood outings.  Basically, the new
BSA program is the Mormon AP program in a different context and different
name.

From my viewpoint, I think the most important part of the new program is 
that all patrols are in one Troop.  Thus, Deacons, Teachers, Priests,
non-LDS are all in one troop.  This gives the older boys opportunities to
mentor the younger ones during troop activities while still being by themselves
during patrol activities.  This was less likely to happen when the Varsity
scouts were a separate group.  Varsity scouting still exists, but it is now
part of the troop, and it still exists to give the older boys greater
challenges and interest.  Venture (high adventure) scouting still exists,
but is also part of the troop.  In addition, the older scouts can do other
things and still be active in the BSA program; for example, do some drama or
speech things as part of the Mutual program.  Even the younger scouts can
do those things as part of their merit badge work.  The new BSA program has
enough flexibility to encompass the full Mutual program.  The new BSA program
even allows the older scouts to have coed activities--great for YM/YW
activities.

Under the new program, the troop is now a parallel to the whole  Aaronic
Priesthood program rather than just a counterpart to the Deacons Quorum.
I think this is a very significant and important change.

Wards can still have Explorer posts if they want in addition to the troop,
so the advantages of Exploring still exist.  Troops and Posts can still
have joint activities if they want.  I personally think, however, that
Exploring as the Church practices it, exploring career opportunities, will
slowly disappear, while the non-LDS speciality Posts will still continue.
Since the Church won't let its Explorer posts specialize, I think the boys
will gravitate to the Scout troop, which under the new BSA plan, can have
all of the activities of the full Mutual program.  At least I think this will
happen in wards with small youth groups, groups too small to have both a
Scout troop and an Explorer post.  I could be wrong in my assessment of this,
of course.  Time will tell....

>    If the bishopric call someone to scouting
>    and then ignore him, it is not likely to work.  If they call someone to
>    scouting without giving them a clear idea of the responsibility then
>    they are not doing it correctly. When you get an ASM he should already
>    know about things like wearing the uniform and going on campouts and
>    the time commitment involved. If that is not happening, then work with
>    your YM pres and make sure he understands, then he should train the
>    bishopric or else go on the calls along with the member of the
>    bishopric. ( I have done so in such a position ).  
    
You have identified what I think is one of the major problems in how scouting
is applied in many wards.  Bishops call inexperienced people to a very
time consuming position and then almost ignore him, and the Bishops wonder
why their program isn't working very well.  BSA provides leadership training
far superior to anything I've seen from the Church, but many Bishops ignore
that training.  Of course, not all wards & Bishops are this way, but many
of them are.  I had a scout move from Massachusetts to the mid west.  He was
a Star and had a goal to get Eagle before he turned 14.  He went to Mutual in
his ward and discovered that he was being ostracized by both the boys and
the SM because of his "gung-ho" attitude about scouting.  Oh that I could
be blessed with such a boy moving into my ward!

>    Cornerstone Training (anyone remember that?

I took Cornerstone training in Phoenix in about 1972-3. (For the
younger Scouters, Cornerstone was the basic scouter training during the
70's, and it was the training that turned me on to "shadow leadership",
skills that I use in every scout meeting boys and counseling session with
the boys).

>    BUT NEVER should there not be a
>    close contact between the YM organization and the SM and the Bishopric.

A very important point!  Scouting is to train young men, as is Priesthood
activity, for manhood.  

>    The patrol method is very important, and sometimes in small troops it
>    can be difficult, but creativity and inspiration can provide some very
>    good solutions.
    
I think 4-5 boys/patrol is about right.  BSA usually speaks of about 8.
Many of my troops have only had two patrols, one Deacon age & one for the
older boys, and that worked fine.  Actually, we had three patrols, because
the Blazers came on day activities with us once in a while.

>    joint activities with the other boys can be good especially for
>    smaller troops, but by and large, I prefer joint activities with boys
>    of similar ages, ie other troops even if they are non-LDS. 
    
The new scout program provides for this by having patrol activities
separate from troop activities.


>    There was nothing there to prohibit the older boys that had
>    such a skill and need, from helping as leaders to the troop, but part
>    of it's plan was to make way so there could be 13 year old SPLs that
>    could do a good job.  Yes indeed a 13 year old can be a VERY GOOD SPL,
>    but not without a lot of help and training, but remember the purpose
>    again is for the boys. The older leaders should be half-way in the
>    shadows, so the younger ones can grow and develop.
    
One point needs to be made.  The new BSA program is the Church program.
They are one and the same, except that the Church has made minor changes
to adapt it to the church environment, such as no Sunday camping.  Having
only Deacon-age SPL's is not part of the Church program.  That can be the
case or it can not be the case--the handbook allows for either.  Bishops and
SM can (and should) do what is best for their conditions.

>    LDS Scouting can and does work very well. It is for the training and
>    development of ALL the young men in the ward (not just the ones that
>    like camping) and gets there by letting the boys really reach out for
>    their peers as individuals with individual interests and needs. In the
>    precess it builds Faith, Testimony, Leadership, well ... it BUILDS MEN
>    of God.
    
I think that in general LDS scouting has had a good record.  The cases where
it has done poorly have been due to problems at the local level not due to
problems with the philosophical design of the program.  Church leaders have
changed the program as conditions have changed, and that is good.

Allen

    Here is my 2 cents about LDS Scouting.  It has its good and bad points.
    
    My experience with Scouting as a boy was twofold, once a member of a
    Catholic Church troop and secondly in a town troop.  In both cases there
    was no affiliation with religious doctrine whatsoever.  You were merely a 
    BSA organization/troop and didthings by the handbook.
    
    The Mormon overlay to scouting is a curious one to me,yet also a
    positive one.  On the one hand LDS troops are small and seem to have a
    hard time getting "critical mass".  Yet the leaders of the troop are
    men whose character, morals, and values (and sense of sacrifice for the
    boys' welfare) are so much superior to any of the leaders I had as a
    boy.  I am grateful that my boys (I have 3 eagle scouts) got to "rub
    shoulders" with these kind of men. They learned that manliness and
    righteousness can be combined.
    
    As for the workings of the troop, yup, Mormons have some oddities.  For
    me BSA is not an extension of anyting (i.e. church or priesthood).  It
    is simply a fun, outdoorsy, adventuresome, developmental program for
    boys with patriotic, democratic and character developing
    teachings/activites. 
    
    As for my older boys, they have stayed with the troop right up and a
    little after high school graduation.  We have taught them that they
    have a responsibility to give back to the younger boys that which they
    have benefited from.  My wife and I believe that that job is one of the
    responsibilities of Eagles.
    
    WE have had our kids in town Cub Scout troops and these work better
    than Church ones. There are more kids and Cubscouting is a much simpler
    program. Trying to put a Mormon overlay on Cubscouts would only
    complicate it.
    
    As for scoutmasters, I once was called and declined.  I am not that
    keen on camping in the woods.  I would have been a detriment to the
    program.  In town troops it has been my experience that men who become
    scoutmasters do so because they love it.  No calling needed, these men
    are dedicated because it is their love, not their duty/obligation.
    
    Bottom line:  There are plusses and minusses to LDS Troops, but a bit
    of common sense and of perspective of the goals of scouting has kept our
    troop active, alive, exciting and somewhat uncomplicated.  My boys have
    loved it and stayed with it. I just get a little uncomfortable when the
    "Priesthood overlay" is applied (kinda like when in Utah Highschool Pep
    Rallies prayers, using Christ's name, would be given-I used to teach
    there.)
    
    Boy Scouting is boy scouting! The LDS advantage is the application of
    our values, resources, and attitudes towards achievement to the main
    goals of BSA. 
    
    Paul
     

In .24 I expressed my view that the new BSA program spans the full Aaronic
Priesthood program.  I didn't mean to slight the Blazer program in the
Primary.  The new BSA program spans the full scouting program of the Church,
both Aaronic Priesthood and Primary.

The Blazers do many of their scouting activities as a Patrol, but I have
had good success both in Phoenix and New England in having them join with
the rest of the troop for occasional day activities, their overnight campouts,
and for Courts of Honor.  They are accepted by the older boys as part of the
troop, and I think it helps them adjust to the Aaronic Priesthood program
when they turn 12.  I extend invitations to them to join the troop functions,
and they decide if they want to or not.

Allen

    Wow! I'm sure happy with all the response. You help and feedback has
    been very beneficial and has enlightened me in some otherwise shadowy
    and nebulus areas...
    
    Here are some more questions and comments over the last few replies:
    
    Paul, I really appreciate your outlook. I agree with you on how the
    church and scouting should mix. I try to run it that way in my troop. I
    respect my non-LDS boys right to practice their own families religion.
    I don't believe scouting should be "missionary" any more than any other
    facet of life. I have had christian and non-christian scouts. The
    church calls and assists scout leaders who are THEMSELVES an influence
    on the boys. I don't feel the SM is there to be a religious teacher,
    but a positive example living a religious life.
    
    Allen, I know the "new" BSA organization, however, as far as I can see
    the church has not adopted it (yet). I would really LOVE to organize
    along these lines. So far, I am doing what I can but it's not going
    fast enough. I got the old varsity leader out and the new one is a
    model of cooperation (we even share a committee!) However, I am still
    viewed as the Deacons scoutmaster, not THE SCOUTMASTER for all scouts.
    (For anyone who may think this is an ego-trip, it's not! I would
    like to see the church adopt this model. I would gladly accept the role
    of ASM for Deacons and report to THE Scoutmaster just to have the
    model!) So, I've had S.A.L.T. training and understand BSA's org. My
    Bishop is a great man. He is a gung-ho scouter (previous SM, woodbadge
    and his son's (he's 17) Eagle court is next week), but he's a real
    "letter-of-the-law" kinda guy... What arguments can I use to get him to
    adopt this? It's insane to have 3 charters (scout-varsity-explorer)
    when we only need 1!
    
    Regarding Sunday camping. For summer-camp, we travel and set up camp on
    Saturday this year. Last year we traveled on Sunday (mandatory for camp
    at Catalina) and no one had any problems with it. Other than
    summer-camp, that's it. My dilemma is that our troop has planned
    several back-packing treks that are 15miles or more for some
    high-adventure awards. (Our last one was the Mormon Battalion Trail
    award.) So, here's the problem: By the time we get the boys together
    and hit the road and travel 1-2 hours to the trail-head and then get
    out and started, it's now 6-7pm and almost dark. We hike in the dark
    for 3 hours to get a couple of miles under our belts. The next day we
    face an arduous hike to finish the trek. THE AWARD REQUIREMENTS SUGGEST
    DOING 7.5 MILES ON TWO SEPERATE DAYS. I is impossible to get much if
    anything on Friday, so that leaves only Sunday. I have been on outings
    with boys on Sunday and we have had services and enjoyed God's fabulous
    creation. I have no problem with doing this a few times. This comes up
    also where LDS Boys want to do the backpacking MB. It requires 3 3-day
    and 1 5-day backpack trip. Now, maybe somewhere there are leaders who
    have all summer to take boys hiking, but I have to pretty much work
    hard to get 1 camp/mo + summer-camp. How can I do this with NO Sunday
    camping at all? Some wards camp on Sunday's a few times/year and some
    none. Why can't there be a better interpretation of the "policy"? As
    far as me personally, I camp Sat-night when I go to training and feel
    it's OK. 
    
    As far as LDS leader's dress "code", I view meetings within the realm
    of "long" pants and outdoor activities as SPORTS. I WEAR SHORTS THEN!
    (I can't tolerate hiking 15 miles in "full" uniform (class-G)  8^)
    
    When I started as SM, the DQ advisior TOLD me that the DQ Pres must be
    the SPL! I showed him the SM handbook... I held "elections" the next
    week. The Pres wasn't the SPL. My new SPL is also the Pres. So, it
    doesn't matter much to me other than the fact that I don't think that
    when/if we get the bishop to adopt the BSA org, that a Deacon will get
    "Elected" as the SPL of the TROOP. As Patrol Leader? Sure!
    
    Another question... When I was a Scout, we had Scout Sunday one day
    each February. What happened? Why? If the church is so supportive of
    Scouting, why did the 1st Pres send a letter out cancelling this? To me
    LDS scouting has gone downhill ever since!
    
    Len, there is a dichotomy in what you said here;
    	"...LDS program is to benefit the boys not look good. Some
    community programs tend to lean more to the look good side as a matter
    of pride for the Leaders. In any Scouting program, the Leaders make the
    difference..." My question, is what is wrong with Leaders having pride
    in their boys? I certainly do! I ALSO want them to look good and be
    good scouts! You also say, "...LDS program is planned and designed to 
    benefit ALL the boys in the ward, while the community programs are 
    for those boys who are interested." I disagree! If my LDS boys don't
    want tot do scouting. Fine (3 of my deacons don't)... I am not a
    BABYSITTER for some kids who are where they or their parents don't want
    them to be! The result of your style is that more boys are benefitted
    less! I would RATHER benefit those boys who want scouting MORE!
    
    Well, I have to run for now. I still have several items left, but I'm
    out of my alotted time!
    
    Thanks for your help and patience with me 8^)
    
    Scoutmaster Steve
    
    ps (I don't let the boys call me Brother Boyack! My name is Steve!
        my Dad is Brother Boyack... ;v)
    
    Cheers

    Well, I guess if Allen can make 2 (or more 8^) entries in a row, I can
    also...
    
    Here goes,
    
    Stake Leadership: I mentioned that I served as an ASM and CM before in
    another stake. These were my first BSA adult leadership opportunities.
    In my case then and also NOW as a SM in another stake, I am APPALLED at
    the low quality (nearly non-existant) stake SCOUT leadership.
    Officially, our stake YM presidency handles Explorers (Pres), Varsity
    (1st counselor) and Scouts (2nd counselor). THEY certainly aren't
    modeled on the new BSA ork of ONE troop! Now, officially they register
    themselves as Unit Commissioners. Since these gentlemen have NEVER
    called me nor the other SM's I talk to, what do they DO? I have looked
    at the role of the UC and they don't do that. The last YM pres 2nd
    counselor certainly SCREWED UP my charter! It took 6 months to fix all
    the problems! I got FED UP and told the stake that I was going to go
    out and get my OWN Unit Commissioner. They seem to me to be VERY
    important in the scheme of things as they are the official link
    between the unit and BSA. Guess who I recruited? MY WIFE!!! She is
    GREAT! She has always wished shw could participate in some way and this
    REALLY helps me out a GREAT deal. After I talked to her about it, we
    ran it by the bishop and stake YM pres (they are very supportive. I
    was ready for some "pushback" because of LDS attitudes towards "women"
    and scouting, but we got almost none.) My wife's dad is a lifetime
    scouter and is currently a UC. At first he wasn't for our idea
    because he expected the church to ostracize her.Wwe were going to to 
    it anyway, since it's a BSA calling NOT a church calling but it's nice 
    to have support. So now I don't care that the stake leadership is of
    little help (to their credit, they do run 3 stake Court of Honor's each
    year). BOTTOM LINE: WHY AREN'T STAKE LEADERS MORE INVOLVED &
    SUPPORTIVE OF THE SCOUTERS THEY "SERVE"?????????
    
    Round Tables for me are on the same night as Scouts (Tuesday). I try to
    go to another RT but it is somewhat difficult. The stake has never
    offered any help or support (since all our stake has MIA on Tue or Wed
    then at least 1/2 of the SM's cant make a Tue RT). A stake RT? With the
    "helpful" brethren that I have? I wish!
    
    BSA Varsity is SPORTS. LDS Varsity more closely resembles venture! To
    me it seems that the church has never figured out the diffs between
    Varsity/Venture... If I had my choice, and we got to adopt the new BSA
    org, then I would clearly do Venture. The church has a sports program
    INDEPENDENT of BSA for the YM to play baseball, basketball and
    volleyball. This is one aspect of church scouting that has always
    confused me... (comment for Len; Since you say that BSA is for ALL the
    boys, how come I don't hear that same argument put to the sports part?
    SOME BOYS DON'T HAVE THE APTITUDE, INTEREST, TIME OR INCLINATION. OTHER
    THAN BEING INVITED AND MADE TO FEEL WELCOME, IT'S COME IF YOU WANT TO!
    TO ME SCOUTS OPERATE ON TEH SAME PRINCIPLE. Come if you WANT to...
    
    Hey Len, I went on a mission to Chile also! I was there in 7/75-7/77. I
    was called to Santiago. Before I left, it split and I was assigned to
    Conception (Pres. Haymore). I finished with him in yet another mission
    - Osorno! I sure loved Chile and the people. BTW, When I was there, I
    never noticed ANY scouts (church or otherwise).
    
    

    The (in)famous green book... SCOUTING HANDBOOK
    "Relationships between the Church of Jesus Christ and the BSA"
    
    Last revised in 1985! Over 6 years old... Why no UPDATE?
    
    Here are some of my questions: 
    
    	"EVERY WARD AND BRANCH WITH BOYS OR YOUNG MEN SHOULD SPONSOR A CUB
    	 SCOUT PACK, A SCOUT TROOP, A VARSITY SCOUT TEAM, AND AN EXPLORER 
    	 POST"
    
    Why? To me this imposing of our ward's arbitrary boundaries
    artificially makes the sizes of units too small. Why should a 
    ward with 3 deacons sponsor a troop? IMO they should COMBINE with
    another ward IF POSSIBLE. Also, you can see that each ward/branch is
    expected to have a cub unit and scouts and varsity and explorer! This
    means 4 committees, and enough leaders to fill a grandstand. In every
    ward I've lived in, just when you get big enough to have enough leaders
    they SPLIT the ward and your organization is hosed...
    
    	"THERE SHOULD BE NO STAKE EXPLORER POSTS BECAUSE THEY WOULD TAKE
    	 YOUNG MEN AWAY FROM WARD AND QUORUM ACTIVITIES AND CAUSE THEM          
    	 TO LOSE IDENTITY WITH THEIR QUORUMS"
    
    This is nonsense to me. Why have an explorer program at all if you
    don't want it to succeed? What about jobs, girls, school, sports...
    these things "take away ... from ward and quorum activities ..." I
    don't see how we can ban them.
    
    Scouting Month: 
    
    	"TO AVOID DRAWING ATTENTION AWAY FROM THE SACREDNESS OF THE 
    	 SACRAMENT THOSE WHO ADMINISTER AND PASS THE SACRAMENT SHOULD NOT 
    	 WEAR THE SCOUT UNIFORM"
    
    I didn't realize the Scout Uniform was a distraction. In San Diego, we
    have many brethren in the armed forces. They often come in uniform.
    They are never told that they are a distraction! Anyway, it seems that 
    it WAS alright to wear a uniform for a lot of years. So, how come one
    day it is all of a sudden a "distraction"?
    
    	"ONLY SCOUT LEADERS WHO ARE MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH ARE TO BE
    	 SUSTAINED AND SET APART."
    
    I was called and sustained but never set apart... My first ASM was a
    dad who was not a member of the church. He comes to sacrament meeting
    almost always. I don't recall the circumstances of his calling and if
    he was sustained. I think he just always came and wore a uniform and
    helped out, etc. He probably made himself a defacto ASM. We did
    register him as an ASM so BSA considered him one). Was I supposed to
    tell him "...no, no, no... You can't be an ASM because..."?
    
    	"ELEVEN YEAR OLD BOYS... DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN THE WEEKLY TROOP
    	 MEETINGS BECAUSE THE TROOP MEETING IS AN EXTENSION OF THE 
    	 DEACONS QUORUM MEETING."
    
    Well, this certainly goes against the new BSA org for troops. In any
    case, what if there IS NO BLAZER LEADER? I don't have on now!!! (Going
    on 2 months - the bishop knew 6 months in advance!) I CERTAINLY DO HAVE
    THE BLAZERS MEET WITH ME...
    
    	"WHEN NON-MEMBER BOYS TURN 12 THEY ALSO BEGIN ATTENDING REGULAR 
    	 TROOP MEETINGS."
    
    I have two 11 year old NM boys meeting with me now. One NM boy just
    turned 12 (he has been a regular in the "troop" for amost a year!
    
    	"WHEN THE PROGRAM FUNCTIONS PROPERLY, MOST ELEVEN-YEAR OLD SCOUTS
    	 CAN ACHIEVE TENDERFOOR, SECOND CLASS AND FIRST CLASS...
    
    	 ELEVEN YEAR OLD SCOUTS MAY PARTICIPATE IN A ONE-NIGHT CAMP
    	 TWICE..."
    
    So to get First Class you have to have "10 troop patrol activities,
    3 of which must be overnight". How do you get your 1st Class if you
    can only camp out 2 times? ANYWAY, why CAN'T they camp more than
    twice?
    
    	"SCOUTING IS A PROGRAM OF THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA USED BY TGE
    	 CHURCH TO HELP TWELVE- AND THIRTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOYS MAGNIFY THEIR
    	 CALLINGS IN THE PRIESTHOOD."
    
    A) Not the new BSA org as previously mentioned and B) beyond the traits
    that have ALWAYS been a part of Scouting, how does it help them magnify
    their callings? Seems a bit of a stretch... 
    
    	"THE SENIOR PATROL LEADER IS NOMINATED BY THE BISHOPRIC AND
    	 SUSTAINED BY THE QUORUM MEMBERS, WHICH CONSTITUTES ELECTION."
    
    Not according to BSA! I especially like the part, "which constitutes
    election". Say WHAT?!? Webster says ELECT means "to select by vote for
    an office". Enough said.
    
    	"THE PLC MAY BE HELD AS AN EXTENSION OF THE DEACON'S QUORUM
     	 PRESIDENCY MEETING... THE QUORUM PRES PRESIDES AND THE SPL
    	 CONDUCTS."
    
    This makes an interesting relationship between the SPL and the DQ Pres
    if they are different. Since the troop elects the SPL, why should he be
    accountable to the DQ Pres? Anyway, this is moot if the church adopts
    the new BSA org since I doubt the SPL would come from the DQ.
    
    	"WHERE POSSIBLE, HE [THE DQ ADVISOR] SHOULD ALSO SERVE AS THE SM.
    	 ...HE SHOULD HELP THE QUORUM PRESIDENCY TO SELECT AND CORRELATE
    	 SERVICE PROJECTS, SUCH AS LIFE AND EAGLE PROGRESS AWARD SERVICE
    	 PROJECTS."
    
    So the DQ advisor should be the SM? No way could I do both! Also goes
    against the grain of the new BSA program. But my main point here is how
    many Eagle projects are 12-13 year-old boys doing? Most boys are
    getting there at about 15. I would like to see a BSA generated graph
    and LDS version of what ages boys are getting Eagles. I got mine at 13,
    but of 13 Eagles SM Fred got in about 4 years, I was the most gung-ho!
    Most were 15 and that is what I observe still...
    
    	"THE BISHOPRIC MEMBER AND TROOP COMMITTEE MEET WITH PARENTS OF
    	 PROSPECTIVE TROOP MEMBERS TO ORIENT THEM OF THE PROGRAM AND TO
    	 WARD GOALS AND POLICIES REGARDING THE TROOP."
    
    Yeah sure. I've never seen this done! I always have to do it myself. No
    one in the bishopric even know the names of my non-LDS boys, let alone
    their families...
    
    	"VARSITY SCOUTING ACTIVITIES ARE DIVIDED INTO FIVE FIELDS OF
    	 EMPHASIS:
    		1. INDIVIDIAL SCOUTING ADVANCEMENT
    	 **--->	2. HIGH ADVENTURE ACTIVITIES
    		3. PERSONAL DEV
    		4. SERVICE PROJECTS
    		5. SPECIAL PROG AND EVENTS
    
    The high adventure part sounds like VENTURE to me... Varsity emphasis
    is SPORTS in BSA and I don't see that anywhere here.
    
    	"WHEN A CUB SCOUT COMPLETES THE REQUIREMENTS [FOR FAITH IN GOD]
    	 A MEMBER OF THE BISHOPRIC PRESENTS THE AWARD... AT A PACK MEETING. 
    	 THIS AWARD SHOULD NOT BE PRESENTED IN SACRAMENT MEETING."
    
    How less important is supporting a boy in sacrament meeting for getting
    his Faith in God than other things like primary graduation? Seems the
    reverse to me! We make a BIG deal about the Faith in God. I wish the
    whole WARD could see the boys getting it. Not just the paltry few who
    come to pack meeting!
    
    Ditto the above for On My Honor (boys AND adults)!
    
    	"BISHOP'S COUNSELOR RESPONSIBLE FOR DEACON'S (SCOUTS) AND PRIMARY
    	 ... 8. TRAIN THE DQ PRESIDENCIES IN THE DUTIES AND TECHNICAL
    	 SKILLS RELATING TO QUORUM AND SCOUTING FUNCTIONS AND ACTIVITIES."
    
    What is my counselor supposed to teach the boys about scouting? Since
    he hasn't attended ANY of the scout meetings or campouts, how is this
    done 8^) Sounds like the SM's job to me...
    
    	"WOMEN WHO SERVE IN CHURCH SCOUTING POSITIONS ARE NOT EXPECTED TO
    	 PARTICIPATE IN OVERNIGHT CAMPING TO COMPLETE THEIR SCOUT TRAINING."
    
    I'll be brave here, WHY? Am I a heretic for asking? Are women so
    fragile? I bet Eliza Snow would have been out camping with the best of
    them!
    
    	"THE CHURCH DOES NOT REQUIRE NOR RECOMMEND THAT WOMEN WHO SERVE IN
    	 CHURCH SCOUTING POSITIONS PARTICIPATE IN WOOD BADGE TRAINING."
    
    My bishop suggested that my wife and I take it together! He is very PRO
    Wood Badge training. Where to policies like this come from? This is
    truly neanderthal thinking!
    
    	"THE GENERAL SCOUTING COMMITTEE, APPOINTED BY THE CHURCH,
    	 RECOMMENDS, CORRELATES, AND DIRECTS POLICIES AND PROCEDURES
    	 BETWEEN THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS AND THE
    	 BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA."
    
    	"RESPONSIBILITIES OF THE CHARTERED ORGANIZATION...
    		4. ABIDE BY THE RULES AND POLICIES OF THE BSA.
    
    Who is the General Scouting Committee? VJ Featherstone? Who else?
    
    So, we should "abide by the rules and policies of the BSA". This is
    almost a loop-hole to get the new BSA organization implemented as it
    would seem to SUPERCEDE any policies that are in conflict!
    
    Any one else up to discussion the "Green Book" or is it sacred? I
    believe that it was a very good instrument for its time but that many
    of the policies it implemented have either proven unworthy and
    unworkable or have become out-dated.
    
    Let's get church HQ to blow the dust off and update it! If they don't
    like my input, they can always fire me...
    
    Very ;^)
    
    Steve
    
    To be quite honest, I had hoped for a renewal of scouting when
    E.T.Benson became our President. (I know he has FAR more weighty
    matters to consider so nobody pounce on me! I was only hoping 8^)
    
    

Hi Steve,

I agree with much of what you have said about the green book.  The Church
is planning to revise it, but I don't know the timetable.  In 1989, my
troop attended summer camp at a three-stake Camporee.  Visiting from SLC
was the general secretary of the AP committee.  I asked him about the green
book relative to the NEW BSA program, and he said the book would be revised
but that they were doing the AP handbooks and manuals first.

The man (sorry I don't remember his name) made a comment about the three
AP groups remaining separate in the scout program, so I don't expect the
Church to adopt all aspects of the new BSA program.  

I've been in Church scouting since the early 70's, and it is clear that the
Church wants scouting to be an extension of the Priesthood, with complete
separation between the three age groups.  In the 70's the handbook required
that the Deacons Pres be SPL, the Deacons Advisor be SM, and so on for the
other two age groups.  In the 80's the Church relaxed that and gave Bishops
more choice, but if you read between the lines of the green book, it is
plain that the Church hasn't changed its attitude, only allowing a bit more
choice on the part of local leaders.

My attitude towards church handbooks and manuals is the following, and I'm
speaking purely as an individual.  I consider the books important in
giving broad goals and objectives, but I do not consider them of much value
in giving specifics of implementation.  I teach a class or conduct a scout
program such that I fulfil the broad objectives of the Church, but I
implement my program through prayer in a manner that I feel is best for my
local conditions.  I've found that this attitude is a nice compromise between
being a slave to the manuals and completely ignoring them.

In my case, I'm in a ward with 3 or 4 deacons, the same number of teachers
and the same number of priests.  In addition, we usually have a nonmember
or two in scouts.  Thus, I don't feel it is feasible to have three separate
programs, and therefore I'm an advocate of the BSA policy of one troop for
all.  In addition, and very important, I feel it is wise to have one troop
so the older boys can be mentors to the younger.  I follow the church goals
of having the scout troop join with the quorums in preparing our young men
for missions, temple marriage, etc., but I implement the program in a way
that makes sense for the people.  To be a slave to the green book in these
conditions would make a mockery of the church program.

When nonmembers come to scouts, they know we are a religious group.  They
know that we will have prayer in our meetings and have certain standards of
conduct.  They accept these conditions before they choose to come.  I do give
them a choice between attending Mutual opening in the RS room or playing ball
in the gym or coming to the building after the opening is over.  I give them
this choice because the opening is a church meeting not a scout meeting.
But on campouts we have family prayer and the nonmembers join with us.

To me, scouting is a religious program, and I'm in church scouting because of
that.  I don't agree with all of the conditions stipulated by the green book
because of particular local conditions, but I do agree with it that scouting
is a religious program.  If it weren't, there would be no justification for
wards having troops that compete with town troops.

I'll be glad when the green book is replaced so we can see what we have to
work with.

Russ,  you live in SLC.  Would it be possible for you to call the scouting
committee and ask when the new handbook will be out?

Allen

>    Well, I guess if Allen can make 2 (or more 8^) entries in a row, I can
>    also...
    
I write replies according to the topic being discussed, and I think it makes
reading easier to have several short replies on different aspects than one
big reply that brances off on tangents.

My Stake currently has an excellent Stake Scouter, a former SM and a man
very experienced in outdoors and teaching youth.  However, he is is the
exception.  We are a Church of volunteers, mostly untrained volunteers.
Thus, we should expect a wide variance of capability among people.  We
have patience with each other as we learn.

In my case, I mostly ignore both my Stake scout program and my unit
commissioner.  I ignore the Stake because they mainly want to have Stake
Court of Honor, which competes with Ward Court of Honor's (I need another
reply to develop this discussion), and Stake camporees and summer camp.
I don't like the Stake summer camp because they combine the wards into one
troop.  I spend all year training my youth leaders to have a functioning
troop, and I object to the Stake wanting to reduce it to the level of a
patrol for camp.  I like to be at camp at the same time as the Stake so
there are other LDS youth nearby, but I prefer to be there as a troop not
a patrol.  In addition, my Stake encoumpases four or five Councils, and I
feel it is very important for my troop to be active in my own Council; thus
I prefer to go to my Council camp rather than the camp of the Council having
the Stake building.  I like Stake quarterly camporees, but they usually are on
the same weekend as my Council camporees.

I usually ignore my unit commissioner, because in the past they have never done
anything worthwhile, and I've gotten used to not having them around.  My
current UC is different.  He is a personal friend and a good scouter, so 
I talk with him alot to get ideas.  But, he knows he had better not impose
his ideas in a dictorial way, or I'll ignore him.  To me he is an idea person
not a policy enforcer.  I need his ideas but I don't need him trying to run
the program (he doesn't interfer in any way, and he does have good ideas).

I think one major problem with Stake leadership in scouting is that it changes
a lot as people are called/released and nobody really is qualified (or in
many cases has the interest) to really get into scouting--same problem as
many SM.

The Church has established permanent structures for Priesthood and other
organizations.  Sunday School presidents come and go, but the organization
stays together and functions.  In scouting, however, a key SM leaves, and 
the program falls apart.  I think that Wards and Stakes are not willing to
make long-term commitments to Scouting  to establish permanent organizations.

Allen

This has been a fascinating discussion. Its touches upon every problem I have
had in Church scouting. As a former eagle scout (when I was not LDS), the father
of 4 boys, a former DQ advisor/scoutmaster and now in a Bishopric, I've seen it
from a lot of angles.

I had the good fortune to be able to talk with Elder Rex Pinegar at an LDS scout
encampment. We asked many of the same questions being asked here. The one thing
you never want to say is that scouting is an extention of the Aaronic Priesthood.
Elder Pinegar was 'strong' on this to say the least. He told us that if we did
not have functioning quorums and if these quorums did not have separate boy
leadership, advisors, meetings etc. than we weren't ready for LDS scouting.
Scouting is an activity arm of the AP, nothing more. The Church adopts the 
Scouting program because it is consistent with what we believe our boys need to 
be experiencing. He indicated that the Church would drop it in a minute if
Scouting programs began to interfere with priesthood. I remember that he used
as an example the pressures to violate Sabbath day observance for extended 
overnights.

In our ward, mostly because of the 'critical mass' problem, we have one troop.
Participation in Scouting is not mandatory, the Scoutmaster happens to be the
DQ advisor, and any boy who does not accept leadership responsibilities IN A 
SCOUTING CAPACITY can forget about becoming an Eagle. Our DQ president is a 
member of a community troop and our Bishop has 4 daughters. But we try! :)

/steve

    Although this quote is probably verbatim from BSA, it is found on p25
    of the LDS (green) Scouting Handbook. I find it particularly helpful
    when discussing the purposes and aims of Scouting.
    
    	"The purpose of the Boy Scouts of America is to promote a program
    	 that will enable boys and young men to do things for themselves
    	 and others, and to learn Scouting skills, patriotism, courage,
    	 self-reliance, and duty to God."
    
    I can't say it any better...
    
    Steve

    I just wrote my Scoutmaster a letter. It's been over 20 years since I
    was in the Troop. I was a Scout until I was about 17. I haven't seen
    him since then since our ward split several times, I went on a mission,
    got married and moved away... Now, as a Scoutmaster myself, I think
    about Scoutmaster Fred quite a bit. I wish my brothers could have had
    Fred as their Scoutmaster. He made the difference. They got stuck with
    Scoutmasters that rotated every six months... Fred served for many,
    many years until he retired and got a bit too old to take boys camping.
    They don't make Scoutmasters like Fred anymore. If I can be half the 
    Scoutmaster Fred was, my boys will have a lasting Scout experience.
    
    A letter to Scoutmaster Fred.
    
    
    


	Fred Erickson
	Former Scoutmaster
	Troop 129

	Dear Fred,

	It has been a long, long time since we have crossed paths. I 
	hope that my letter finds you and your family well and happy. 
	I am living in San Diego with my wonderful wife and four boys.
	They all aspire to be Eagle Scouts some day. About two years
	ago, I was asked to be the Scoutmaster of our church's troop.
	After some thoughtful consideration, I accepted with one caveat.
	That I wouldn't be called to another position until after
	my youngest son finished Scouting...in 18 years! My oldest 
	son is in Cub Scouts, so, it won't be long until he joins the
	troop. I don't take this commitment lightly.

	I first accepted the position because I wanted my boys to have
	a great Scouting experience and I figured that I needed a couple
	of years to get up-to-speed before they arrived at Scouting age.
	I have learned though, how rewarding it is to help other boys
	grow and mature through the Scouting program. Some of my "boys"
	have no fathers in their homes and I feel a special joy at being
	able to help them along. 

	I have been trying to assimilate a number of feelings and 
	experiences for which you were a key element in my life. They 
	are many and cover a number of important years of my youth. As
	I look back at that time, I realize how little thanks I gave
	to you for all the time and effort you put forth on behalf of
	our troop. As a scout I was very focused on my own world and 
	saw little of the sacrifices that your role of Scoutmaster 
	required from you and your family.

	I guess that this is more clear to me because I have been a
	Scoutmaster now for a couple of years. Never before did I quite
	understand the commitment that being a Scoutmaster requires.
	Neither did I understand the happiness and joy of working with
	young men in the Scouting program as I do now. What I took for
	granted as a Scout, I now recognize as a well structured outdoor
	program, an exciting advancement program and a troop that used
	the Patrol Method. It all seemed so natural. To me it was just
	plain FUN! As a normal Scout, fun was the most important part.

	I appreciate your guidance and counsel that helped me to attain
	my Eagle. I am proud that I did and thankful to you for your 
	patient persistence. The things I learned while a Boy Scout have 
	served me very well and been a key part of my life. Your example 
	is often what motivates me to serve and to be the best Scoutmaster 
	possible.

	Over the past few years I have been able to view other troops 
	and their leadership. They are always held up to the standard 
	that you created. Very few are able to match the dedication 
	that I feel you showed to "us boys". So many leaders come and
	go. So many fail to learn the ropes of the program and so many
	aren't truly dedicated. I am very lucky to have had one of the
	very best. I hope that I can live up to the standard that you
	have shown.

	My service in Scouting is dedicated to the best Scoutmaster to
	serve in BSA, Scoutmaster Fred! I hope I can measure up and 
	that some day my Scouts will look back and feel that their 
	time in Scouting was one of the best times of their life!

	Many thanks Fred for all you did for all us Scouts!

	Steven Boyack
	Scoutmaster Troop 603 (but ALWAYS a Scout of 129!)
	Poway, CA

>The Church has established permanent structures for Priesthood and other
>organizations.  Sunday School presidents come and go, but the organization
>stays together and functions.  In scouting, however, a key SM leaves, and 
>the program falls apart.  I think that Wards and Stakes are not willing to
>make long-term commitments to Scouting  to establish permanent organizations.

A few months ago, my ward had a temporary member from Utah.  This brother had
lived in Texas before moving to Utah.  His Stake President in Texas required
that all Aaronic Priesthood leaders attend basic scout training and Woodbadge.
I'm not sure that I like the idea of *requiring* training, because I favor
maximizing free agency in our Church service, but I do like the idea of
Priesthood leaders completing Scout training.  IMHO, the BSA training is
far superior to anything I've seen from the Church.  This is an example of
a Stake that is trying to establish a permanent Scout organization that won't
crumble when key people are released, an organization that will benefit both
scouting and priesthood.

BTW, Steve, I think it was nice that you wrote to Fred.  All too often, we
never say things that should be said to people, or we wait until they are
dead than then say them to the family.

Allen

    This discussion has sparked a recollection.  Back in the 80's, maybe it
    was even in the late 70's, the Church ruled that the troop leadership
    positions had to be held by presidents of the Aaronic Priesthood
    Quorums. Somewhere (Calif I think) a law suit was filed in behalf of a
    non-LDS scouter in a LDS troop saying that this rule was
    discriminatory. The Church withdrew the ruling.
    
    Anyone recollect some such case as this?
    
    Paul

Hi Paul,

The Church handbook for scouting in the 70's did require that the quorum
presidents be the troop leadership.  The green handbook of 1985 (next
version of the manual and current version) does not require that.  I'd heard
rumors of a law suit, but I've never had the rumors confirmed by a reliable
source.

Allen

    My Bishop is a great supporter. As a previous SM himself and having
    completed his woodbadge, he has strongly suggested that BOTH my wife and
    myself attend next years session (even though the "green" book strongly
    suggests that LDS women *not* attend...)!
    
    I am gradually trying to *nudge* him closer towards the new BSA org
    though...
    
    Right now, I have been without a Blazer leader for about 4 months! With
    about ten 11 year-olds this is a BIG gaping hole in our Troop
    leadership! I think I may go nuts!!! I would give anything to get 12
    year-old boys who are almost 1st Class. It's hard to have boys who are
    working on their Star and Life and new boys coming into the troop that
    don't have their Tenderfoot yet...
    
    Goin' beserk!
    SM Steve

>    I would give anything to get 12
>    year-old boys who are almost 1st Class

Hey, Steve, why settle for half a loaf :-)  Go for 1st class not *almost*
1st class.  My son Chad was Blazer leader for a couple of years, and he had
one scout who was Star when he became 12!  Most of the other Blazers were
1st class when they became 12.

Our ward only had a couple of Blazers, so Chad's Blazer program was combined
with that of the other ward in our building, and Chad and the other leader had
an excellent program.  In fact, the year before, my troop was combined for a
year with that of the other ward.  The two wards combined the whole Mutual
program for that year, and it was a great success in the scout troop and a
great failure in the rest of the Mutual.  The scout troop was successful
because there was only one chief (me as SM) for the tribe (troop), while the
rest of the Mutual had two chiefs (class presidents from each ward) for the
tribe (class).  Having two chiefs over one tribe is a good recipe for
disaster, but that is a topic for another note.  After the two Bishops
separated the Mutuals (including scout troop), Chad and the other leader
kept their program together.

That year in which I was SM over both wards was one of my best years in
scouting.  For the first time, I had a strong committee (from the other
ward) and a larger group of boys from both wards.  We took 2nd at a
Council camporee, and later took 1st at another one; those are the only two
times I've ever placed in all my years of scouting...  We had 3 or 4 boys
complete their Eagle that year, had a nice three-day backpacking trip in
New Hampshire, a great summer camp, and a lot of super monthly campouts.  A
great year!  I was SM a few years earlier when the two wards were one ward,
and it was like old-times to be back with the original ward family (plus a
lot of nice moveins, of course).  

I guess the bottom line, Steve, is to nudge your Bishop to give you the
freedom you need to mold a program that is best for your boys.  Combining
scouting between two wards is certainly not according to the book, but it
worked great for us!

Allen

    Sorry I don't get in this conference as often as I would like.
    
    re: "looking good"
    Steve, I didn't mean to imply that there is anything wrong with having
    a troop look good. Quite the oppposite. Boys (and everyone else too)
    like to be part of an orgainzation that they can be proud of. Having a
    sharp troop is very desirable and can help a lot in motivating and
    teaching the boys. What I was talking about is that goal 1 is the
    progress of all the boys in the ward. If someone gets left aside on the
    way to achieving a top flight troop then that is a mistake in my
    opinion.
    
    re: reaching all the boys in the ward.
    The goal of reaching all the boys in the ward does not mean they should
    all like or do the same thing. Each church activity should IMHO reach
    out for all the folks (Sports, Scouting or etc.). Some don't fancy
    themselves appropriate for that activity but when encouraged (this may
    take time) they try it out, and find many positive results from their
    participation (they still might not be good at it). Leaving some of the
    boys out of scouting is like suggesting that the organization (or the
    leaders goals for it) are more important than the individuals. This
    attitude can happen anywhere but it is pretty hard to justify in the
    LDS Scouting organization.  
    
    I do not mean to imply that all of the boys will participate. They
    certainly have their free agency too. But I do mean to imply that the
    leaders (both adult and youth) need to concern themselves about those
    that do not choose to participate, and try to find good solutions (even
    creative or unorthodox solutions) to this situation. Make those boys
    feel like part of the group too. Make a place for them, show them that
    they as individuals are the most important thing.
    
    re: Scouts in Chile.
    
    That is neat that you were a missionary in  Chile too. I was there in
    64-66. At that time there was an Elder Summer (as I recall) that was
    working with the National Scouting Committee, trying to help them
    develop a stronger program with some real training.  It was interesting
    since Scouting had come to Chile sonner (not by much) than to the USA.
    However it had degrated to "glorified drum and bugle corps" by the time
    I was there. You only saw them in parades at some on the holidays. 
    Since you don't remember seeing them, they may not have progressed
    much.
    
    disclaimer:
    
    I may sound dogmatic or worked up on these issues. If so please pray
    about it, take what makes sense to you and discard the rest. I very much 
    believe in letting the Spirit guide our actions, and that what is good
    for me may not be right for you.
    
    May the Lord bless us all,
    
    Len
    

My experience has been that many Church scouting programs don't have
much depth.  As soon as a key leader is released, the program falls
apart--my troop has been that way.

My CC and I are trying to build depth into our program, and I'm wondering
if all of you would give suggestions about doing this?  How can we develop
a scouting program that will continue when key leaders leave?  Please be
specific with your suggestions, and all comments will be appreciated!!!!!!

Allen

RE .29
>    	 ELEVEN YEAR OLD SCOUTS MAY PARTICIPATE IN A ONE-NIGHT CAMP
>    	 TWICE..."    [from the Church "green" book]
>    
>    So to get First Class you have to have "10 troop patrol activities,
>    3 of which must be overnight". How do you get your 1st Class if you
>    can only camp out 2 times? ANYWAY, why CAN'T they camp more than
>    twice?
    
Back in the 70's the Church only allowed Blazers to camp once, while First
Class required two campouts, and the Blazers weren't able to get First Class.
The Church finally changed the requirement to allow two campouts.

Now, BSA requires three campouts, and I expect the Church will change its
requirement to agree with that--in fact I think I remember reading something
about Blazers being allowed to camp three times, but I'm not sure.  Anyone
recall anything from the Church about this?

My suggestion, Steve, is to discuss this with your Bishop and see if he will
authorize your Blazers to camp three times; if he does, then you have no worry
because you "work" for him not for the green book--he'll shield you from any
flack that occurs.

Allen

>My CC and I are trying to build depth into our program, and I'm wondering
>if all of you would give suggestions about doing this?  How can we develop
>a scouting program that will continue when key leaders leave?  Please be
>specific with your suggestions, and all comments will be appreciated!!!!!!

Allen

If you Bishop and Stake President is really committed...The best priesthood
holder in a ward should be the Young Mens President.  The second best is
the Ward Mission Leader.  This Young Mens President should be committed to
the youth (Priesthood and Scouts).  No matter how long this person stays
in the calling, the program will work.  Always replace an outgoing YM Pres
with the BEST priesthood holder, (again one who is committed to the youth).
A good priesthood holder who is not committed to youth will destroy a great
program in 6 months or less.  A good priesthood holder (committed to youth)
will not give the correct priesthood leadership.  Leadership is very
important to both the BSA program and the AP program.  Both programs teach
leadership.  Allow 18 and 19 year old YM to help with the scouting program as
ASM or special assistants to the SM.  Their insite into the Blazer program and
the Boy Scout program and the Varsity program will be invaluable.  A varsity
program can and will work with the strong priesthood leadership.  The YM 
counciler does not have to be the ASM.  This can (and should to my way of
thinking) be kept seperate.  I was the DQ advisor for a Quarum of 19 boys.
I told the Bishop there was no way I could do justice to both jobs.  He got
a different SM or ASM I forget which, and we had an excelent BOY SCOUT Program.
The Varsity program failed.  The TQ advisor was the ASM.  Could not keep up
with the program and soon things began to fail.  They are still trying to
rebuild the Varsity program in my ward.  The Explorer program will fail if
you do not meet the needs of ALL the YM.  Some want scouting activities and
others want girls and still others want career development.  They will all
give for the others if they all get their wants and needs met.  We designed
a program with the help of the SM, and Priest (I was the Explorer Committee
Chairman) that met all the requirements of the individual groups in the
priests quarum.


Sorry to take up so much space.  This is one of my soap boxes.
Lee

    Hi Allen,
    
    I have stumbled upon something that is beginning to yield some
    benefits. In the beginning I was spending a great deal of time learning
    the SM duties and responsibilities as well as brushing up on my
    Scouting knowledge (knots, lashings, advancement reqmnts...). 
    
    I took a very subservient role in staffing for Scouting. I learned the
    hard way that the "squeeky wheel gets the greese" or in my case good,
    dedicated people to help our young men in Scouting. NOW, I actively
    search out those people that 1) have an interest in Scouting, 2) have
    young men in Scouting, 3) have a Scouting background... I look for new
    people in the ward and those that meet my "conditions", I make a
    calling to them. (Since the word "calling" may provoke some, you can
    also insert SOLICIT). If they "accept", I ask them to go to the Bishop
    and VOLUNTEER. If the Bishop says yes, then I get a new, dedicated
    assistant. If he says no, I keep on looking. This doesn't always work,
    but it is sure better than waiting. Before, weeks would go by without
    any action on my request to "call" somebody. Now, they move MUCH
    quicker. 
    
    Joseph Smith was told in a revelation to make a decision and then to
    pray about it. Then he would be told if the decision was correct. I
    find that the hard part for my leaders is the part that they must do
    first. MAKE A DECISION! I am simply helping to facilitate this part.
    They can then pray to see if they made a correct decision.
    
    Sometimes people get caught in analysis paralysis and cannot make a
    decision. Other times, my leaders get so busy with other temporal needs
    of the ward that our little 'ole Troop gets moved a bit down the
    priority list. So, in this spirit, I believe that I am helping the
    program and being of greater service to the Bishop. So far, he has been
    very appreciative of this help in selecting candidates. It has also
    made a BIG difference to the Troop and to my personal sanity and
    survival as SM.
    
    Steve

Yea, Steve, we don't like to admit it, but there is such a thing as Church
politics--a better name for it is human relations.  The key thing is that
each person works out a relationship with his or her superiors and subordinates
that is enjoyable for all.  Looks like you & your Bishop are doing that.

Allen

    Why does the the "Green book" on LDS Scouting say that the ward should
    charter a Troop, a Team and a Post? For anyone who is in charge of the
    re-chartering activity and FOS, this is a *real* pain! I would like to
    discntinue our Team charter and register the 14-16 year-old boys in a
    Varsity/Venture Patrol of our Troop.
    
    Our re-charter month is May. Last May the Stake YM 2nd counselor said
    that he would submit our paperwork... Finally in October, we have
    straightened out his mess. He was released in July, so we were left on
    our own to fix his problems. Now we have a NG (new guy) in the position
    and I am NOT going to let him touch my re-charter. Having 3 units (4
    counting Cubs) really compounds the work involved. I would eleiminate
    the Post too, since the boys don't DO any exploring related activities.
    They go to a couple ball games, have a couple of parties, etc... Wow! 
    
    Our Troop is 603, Team is 6603 and Post 3603. Is this a subversive
    attempt to sell more numerals for uniforms?!?
    
    8^)
    
    SM Steve
    San Diego
                                                  

    I would like to offer some "input" to the person/committee that is
    re-writing the "Green book" for LDS Scouting. I have heard that this is
    being done, or will in the near future.
    
    Does anybody have a name that I could contact to find out what is being
    done and give some feedback? It seems that it is being done in a
    vacuum.
    
    Can you say Hoover, Kirby of Eureka?
    
    SM Steve
    San Diego

    There is a Brother Mills (I don't remember his first name) in the
    Mormon Relations office of the Great Salt Lake Council, Salt Lake City,
    Utah.  If he is not writing the new version of the "green book", then
    I'm sure he would know who is, when it's due out, etc.
    
    I just looked for his number, but I couldn't find it.  Call information
    in Utah (801) 555-1212 and ask for the number.
    
    Good luck,
    	Bill Mortimer
    

    Thanks Bill!
    
    I just spoke with Robert Mills. He is responsible for the church
    relationship with Scouting. He said that NO new Green book was planned.
    There are some modifications, but they were slight he said. They
    include:
    
    		1. LDS Scouting financing
    
    		2. Blazers camping 3 over-nights per year.
    
    That's it..! I didn't have my list of questions handy, nor the time for
    a lengthy discussion, so I promised him I would write a letter with my
    other questions. For any of you who wish to contact him, I will post
    his address and phone. He was a very nice gentleman. I do look forward
    to asking my questions to someone "in the know"...
    
    Regards,
    
    SM Steve
    San Diego
    
    
    Robert Mills
    LDS - BSA Relations Office
    	  525 Foothill Blvd.
    	  SLC, UT 84113
           
          800-537-5923
                      

I haven't read this notes file for quite a few months and have really found
these notes on Scouting very helpful and interesting.



> If you Bishop and Stake President is really committed...The best priesthood
> holder in a ward should be the Young Mens President.  


As the Young Mens President in our Ward I found this statement in note 19.43
quite humbling. I am not sure how one would be classified as the "best"
priesthood holder in the ward, but this certainly gives me something live up
to. 

I was called as Y.M. President shortly after I moved in to this ward and a lot
of fundamental issues needed to be resolved at first but now I am shifting my 
attention to the scouting program. We recently have gotten some outstanding 
men called to scouting leadership callings and some good things are starting 
to happen. 

My question is, what ideas do people have for making a really effective scouting
committee? 

I have been involved in scouting as a youth and as an adult leader and have yet
to see what I would call an effective scouting committee. I have heard some
Scoutmasters sing praises to their committee and how it has made their program
so much more effective.

In my mind there is no question that we will only have one committee (not 3),
but who should be called to serve on this committee, in what capacities should
they serve and how should be it organized?  


Jeff

    Hi Jeff, welcome to the Scouting topic!
    
    I'm glad that you decided to have 1 not 3 committees. I think that is a
    very good step in the right direction. I'm trying to transition to that
    form now. Getting a good committee is not easy in MOST cases. However,
    I met some Scouters from another ward recently and the Scoutmaster said
    that he wouldn't have accepted the calling except for the GREAT
    committee that was in place. His ward had 3 Silver Beavers! I can't
    imagine that... It's like the mother-lode! Over the past 2 years, I
    have had 3 committee chairmen and few active committee members, so, I
    created PLAN B! This plan was basically the recruitment of persons with
    any Scouting knowledge, or interest in the YM program, of parents of
    YM. The result was that our YM President get another calling... Troop
    Committee Chairman! The "advisors" for deacons, and teachers are a part
    of the committee as are a few parents and the Scoutmaster's Assistant
    (my wife 8^) 
    
    We are moving along now, although I'm sure the load on the YM President
    is difficult. Eventually we may transition the roles over to others who
    we can co-opt! 
    
    I keep praying for a few (pride, pod, school, bevy or whatever) of
    Silver Beaver to move into the ward!
    
    Best of Luck!
    
    SM Steve
    San Diego

    While reading the Scout manual the other night, I discovered Chapter
    30.  I learned that Venturer/Varsity groups can be chartered as
    separate entities, not as part of the troop; I had thought that they
    had to be part of the troop.  Steve's comments indicated that
    California Wards still had separate Varsity groups, and I didn't
    understand how they got BSA to charter the groups outside the
    troop--now I understand.  
    
    Because of this new knowledge (on my part) I need to moderate my
    previous comments a bit about the importance of having the older boys
    active in the troop.  I would say that whether the older boys should be
    in the troop or not depends on whether Church leaders feel it important
    to have scout-related interaction between the age-groups, or whether that
    interaction will be confined to joint activities.  My preference is to
    have scout interaction by having the older boys in the troop, because I
    value the role of an older boy acting as mentor to a younger boy, but I
    realize that others have differing views, and I now realize that BSA
    accommodates both views.  I think that either way is compatible with
    our organization of Aaronic Priesthood quorums.
    
    Allen

    Hi Allen, I thought you knew that BSA could go either way on chartering
    Varsity/Venture. I agree that either way is acceptable, however, as the
    Scoutmaster, I find it much easier when we have more cooperation
    between the groups. I am hoping to eliminate the seperate Varsity
    charter when renewal comes up...
    
    The Varsity leader goes to the Huddles (equiv of our Roundtables) and
    only 1-2 people show up besides the commissioner. We ONLY HAVE 1 HUDDLE 
    in all the council! So, he is tired of the varsity program and wants to
    be the ASM over the Varsity PATROL of TROOP 603. I really like the idea
    also.
    
    Our program now accomodates what we think is the best of both. The
    Varsity (and now some explorers too) come on ANY activities the troop
    has that they are interested in. Their plans include most of our
    "high-adventure" type outings. We have 2 3-day backpacking trips, a gun
    shooting trip, a 4-day Grand canyon trip that we are planning as a
    group. In our ward NOW Scouting means 11-18 years old. The bishop's son
    comes on MOST of the outings and he is 11! The way things are going, I
    am very very happy! Tomorrow we have a 15 mile backpack trip. We are
    hiking 7.5 miles under the (almost) full moon. Of the 16 youth that are
    participating, only 10 *officially* belong to the troop.
    
    Nothing garners more support than a successful program. Ain't it great!
    
    Steve

>    Hi Allen, I thought you knew that BSA could go either way on chartering
>    Varsity/Venture.

I knew that a few years ago, the only Varsity/Venturing programs were separate
from the troop.  When BSA brought those programs into the troop, I didn't
realize that the programs were also left separate; all of the comments from my
Council talked about the programs coming back into the troop, and I assumed
that they were only available that way.

Steve, what is the attitude of your Teachers and Priests about mingling with
younger boys during Scout activities, and about wearing uniforms?  Scout
Spirit is part of advancement requirements, and I feel that "scout spirit"
includes helping younger boys and wearing uniforms at least part of the time.

Do your older boys do things with the Deacons during Mutual some of the time,
or is it only during outdoor activities.  Do they wear uniforms during some
of the Mutuals and campouts?  If your registered scouts do things with the
Deacons during some Mutuals, what do the non-registered boys do during that
time?

I  would also appreciate comments from other LDS Scouters about this.  My ward
revamping its scout program, and there is some disagreement between me and the
Mutual President about this.  It would be helpful to understand what other
Wards are doing.

Allen

    Our last backpack trip involved THE TROOP. Boys ranged from 11 to 16.
    All Scouts were invited and we had a GOOD turnout. I have quit
    considering boys to be "blazers" or "varsity". They are either in the
    TROOP or not. (Really were not quite there yet...) 
    
    I don't require uniforms for backpack trips, but for car-camps and
    court of honor and for troop meetings, the uniform IS REQUIRED! We get
    about 95% that wear them and those that don't haven't gotten them yet
    (and we are working on those...).
    
    Since we are absent a blazer leader, I have assimilated the blazers
    into the troop. The varsity usually only join our meetings when they
    need the merit badge that WE are working on or for planning upcoming
    activities. They still have plenty to do on their own. Our older boys
    *enjoy* being the Scout Leaders!
    
    Our next activity involves all Scouts from 11-18. We are having a
    campout and then shooting shotguns and rifles the next day. Tonight we
    are learning how to reload ammunition and we will reload some to shoot
    later.
    
    SM Steve

    When I came into my recent position of Scoutmaster (gee, has it been
    almost two years!) I was told the church MIA program was for us to have
    Scouts (Tuesday for our ward) each week, except for 1 week when we had
    an MIA Combined activity. Responsibility for planning the activity
    rotated between the youth groups (Deacons, Teachers, Priests, Miamaids,
    Laurels and Beehives). They had $25 to spend on whatever. 
    
    When I started, this was dumped in MY lap. I was expected to "organize"
    the Deacons activities. It took me a while to realize that this ISN'T a
    part of being Scoutmaster, so, I "trained" the DQ Advisor to do this as
    a part of his Quorum responsibilities.
    
    So far, I quite like the arrangement. I get 1 week off per month. The
    activities that are held are usually quite fun (Square Dances, Beach
    party, Game night, Talent night, Ice-cream socials are some examples).
    All the Deacons participate, even those that don't regularly come to
    Scouts. This gives them some extra interaction with the other youth,
    but removes some of the *pressure* to be in Scouting if it's not his
    bag.
    
    The MIA Combined Activity is always held on a regular night (2nd
    Tuesday for example) This works for me because I ALWAYS missed the
    district roundtable which was the 2nd Tuesday. Now I can go! I don't
    know if this setup is church-wide or at my stake level, but I have
    grown to like it...
    
    Steve

Steve,

Thanks for your comments.  There is one point that still isn't clear.

>    I don't require uniforms for backpack trips, but for car-camps and
>    court of honor and for troop meetings, the uniform IS REQUIRED! We get
>    about 95% that wear them and those that don't haven't gotten them yet
>    (and we are working on those...).
    

>    The varsity usually only join our meetings when they
>    need the merit badge that WE are working on or for planning upcoming
>    activities. They still have plenty to do on their own. Our older boys
>    *enjoy* being the Scout Leaders!
    
I'll be talking with my Bishop's counselor and YM president this Sunday, and
I'm interested in how your Ward is doing things so I can give them a "case
history".  

You spoke of 95% wearing uniforms for troop meetings, but you also said the
varsity usually only come to troop meetings for MB classes or activity
planning.  When they do come (I assume that means they are mingling with the
Deacon-age boys), are they in uniform for those Mutuals?  I assume they are
not in uniform when they meet by themselves.

Please excuse me for reasking about uniforms, but I want to be sure I 
understand what your Ward is doing so I don't give my leaders false info.

The position I'm taking in discussions with my leaders is that I want the
older boys who are registered to be in uniform for one Mutual per month to
act as mentors with the younger boys, working 1:1 to help them with skill
training.  I also want the older boys in uniform when we attend Council
camporees and do our monthly car/campouts and for CoH.  Like you, nobody
wears uniforms when we backpack.  Some of my leaders are skeptical that the
older boys will wear uniforms for *any* Mutual, and I'm looking for case
histories that show that older boys in other areas do wear uniforms.  BTW, I've
always had good success with older boys wearing uniforms until recently when
the adult leaders wanted to move the older boys out of the troop....  Now, the
older boys have the attitude that uniforms are only for younger boys, and I'm
trying to turn this around.

Allen

    Hi Allen,
    
    First of all, the Varsity leader ALWAYS wears his uniform. He is very
    gung-ho about it. It IS harder to get the older boys to wear theirs but
    I insist they do when we meet together. I make a BIG difference between
    not having a uniform and not wearing on that is home in the closet. The
    Bishop and our counselor have uniforms and wear theirs to courts of
    honor (which they always come to).
    
    Seperate varsity "events" are not easily made uniform mandatory. I know
    their leader does what he can thouigh. It is when we meet together that
    I am more strict. In fact, since I have a portable telephone, the boys
    know that I will call their homes during a troop meeting to have Mom
    return with their uniform. This doesn't have to be done often. Most
    boys become very conciencious. I have one 13 year-old however, that
    really hates to wear his uniform -- but I keep trying. The boys in
    varsity now are the scouts that I "inherited" when I became SM.
    Uniforms were not a big deal in the troop then. The boys that I have
    gotten "green" and brought through the program view uniforms
    differently. 
    
    I tell the parents that the only excuse for NOT wearing a uniform is
    that the family cannot afford it. If this is the case, we find a good
    uniform to recycle or find a mentor to help the scout earn his uniform.
    The parents must help support the program also.
    
    Hope this helps some.
    
    Steve

I thought I'd post an update on the situation in my ward with the older boys.

I had a nice meeting with the Bishop's counselor & YM president, and we agreed
that the older boys would come to Mutual once a month in uniform and assist
me as Instructors with the Deacon-age boys.  The boys who aren't interested
in the formal aspects of scouting will do something else that night with their
advisors.  Twice a month the older boys will do Quorum related things with
their advisors (this oftentimes will be scout related, such as a MB class, but
will be in the name of the Quorum so the boys not interested in "scouts" won't
be turned off).  Once a month will be a joint activity.

Prior to my troop being reregistered last week, I interviewed all of the older
boys and got commitments from them that they would participate with the troop
as Instructors and that they would come in uniform.  They also committed to
go camping with the Deacons at least once a quarter (for the District
camporees).

We begin this in January, so I'll see how it goes.  I did this "instructor"
thing a couple of years ago with the same boys, so I think it will fly.  I
hope so, because I really can use their help, and they need the experience of
being instructors and mentors to younger boys.  The Teachers & Priests will
be assisting me on different Mutual nights, so I'll have help two of the three
nights I'm with the Deacons.

Allen

    Hi Allen and everyone...
    Since this topic has been very important to me and my calling, I wanted 
    to reply here to say farewell. After 5 years with Digital I have
    accepted a position with another company here in San Diego, CA. I have
    really received a lot of courage and inspiration from this note that
    will help me to continue to persue my calling as a Scoutmaster. I
    appreciate all the time many of you, especially Allen, have put in to
    offer encouragement and support and ideas. They will be remembered for
    a long, long time. Thanks, and best luck to everyone!
    Steven Boyack
    Scoutmaster Troop 603

Good luck and success to you, Steve, and thanks for the plans for the backpack
frame that just arrived!

May the Lord always be with you!

Allen

I got my first, brief, look at the new Priesthood handbook last night at Mutual.
One paragraph talked about scouting in the Church.

Deacons and Teachers should be registered as scouts.  No mention was made of
the Teachers being in a separate Varsity program, so apparently the Church has
changed its attitude about the Teachers not being in the Troop and is willing
to have them be a patrol in the Troop.

Scouting is optional for Priests.  If Bishops choose to not use Scouting for them,
they are to have something else that is constructive and positive.  Specific mention
was made that Mutual should not degenerate into weekly basketball playing.

Anyone have other observations from the manual (I only had a couple of minutes to 
look at it)?

Allen