Conference tecrus::mormonism

    This discussion has prompted 2 questions in my mind, which I have had
    for a long time.  
    
    First:  Is God's foriveness "unconditional"?
    
    I think not because 1)we must repent and 2)we must invoke the name of
    Jesus to use the effects of the atonement.
    
    Second:  Is God's love unconditional?
    
    I do not know.  I had a Sunday School discussion presented by a very
    respected man/psychologist who presented the following.
    
    .What is the evidence of one's being loved by God?  Answer:  The giving
    of the Holy Ghost.
    
    
    .How do you get the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost? Answer:
    by righteous living.
    
    .Therefore, the condition upon which one can know/feel God's love is
    predicated upon the condition of righteous living.  God's love then is
    conditional.
    
    So what do you think of the above?  The first I can understand and
    agree to, the second is open for debate.
    
    Regards,
    
    Paul
    

Hi Paul,

Here are my thoughts, and I hope others will share theirs.  I don't have my
scriptures here at work nor the time right now to give scriptures to support
my views.

>    First:  Is God's forgiveness "unconditional"?
    
I think that God's forgiveness is unconditional.  D&C 76 states that the only
ones who will not be redeemed are the Sons of Perdition.  Thus, all others will
be forgiven and will be saved in one of the three kingdoms of glory.

The scriptures teach that Christ suffered for the sins of all.  He has paid
the penalty for all of our faults and sins, including past and future.  All
of them.  His atonement was infinite, and I think his forgiveness is also
infinite.  D&C 19 clearly states that if we do not repent from our sins, then 
we will have to suffer for them as he suffered for them.  This means that if
we do not repent, then we have to satisfy the Law of Justice ourselves by
suffering for our sins.  But this is a separate matter from forgiveness.  God
will forgive all but the Sons of Perdition, and all (but those) will be 
redeemed.  Forgiveness is from the Law of Mercy that Christ provided in his
infinite atonement.  Repentance is from the Law of Justice.

>    Second:  Is God's love unconditional?
    
I think so.  I think that God has Charity (the pure love of Christ) towards
all persons.  I think he loves everyone regardless of who they are, regardless
of how righteous or sinful they are.  God gives blessings based upon the
things we do, but his love applies to all--it has to if he is truly God.

The final judgment will be a time of giving of blessings to those who obeyed
him, not a time of God demonstrating his love to the chosen few.

>    .What is the evidence of one's being loved by God?  Answer:  The giving
>    of the Holy Ghost.
    
I think the "evidence" of his love is not the giving of the Holy Ghost but is
the giving of the Light of Christ that is with everyone who is born.  The
gift of the Holy Ghost is a blessing given to those who obey God not just
a sign of his love.  He is the Father of all spirits and loves all spirits
with a perfect, unconditional love.  He gives blessings to those who obey him.
He does not give blessings to those who disobey him, but he loves all.
    
Some people will say, "Aren't blessings also signs of love from God?"  I
would say, no, because he has infinite love towards everyone but gives
blessings based on our obedience.  If we mortals "give blessings" (that is do
acts of service) to others, then those acts are signs of our love because we
do not have infinite love as God does.

My .02

Allen

    re: .41
    
    Hello Allen,
    
    I feel the need to state that I can realize how God's forgiveness is
    unconditional.  The example given of D&C 76 will help show this point.
    
    The forgiveness that is given is predicated upon our repenting of our
    sins and asking for the forgiveness.  The sons of perdition will
    never do that, thus they will never receive forgiveness.  If they
    were to repent and ask, then they cease to be the sons of perdition.
    If we don't ask for the forgiveness then we would then become like
    unto the sons of perdition and suffer the same fate.
    
    Thanks for listening.
    
    John.
    
    

================================================================================
Note 288.44                                                             44 of 46
BSS::RONEY "Charles Roney"                           66 lines  24-APR-1992 14:28
                       -< Forgiveness is *CONDITIONAL*. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	Well, since no one has taken a strong stance, I guess I will.  

	First, I must say that the love of God for his children is 
	unconditional.  We do not have to do a thing to obtain his love.
	We must, however, obey his given laws to obtain his blessings 
	(D&C 130:20-21).  

	Second, I believe that God's forgiveness is *CONDITIONAL*.  And from 
	what I have read so far, I think Allen is off his nut :-).  Most of 
	the time, a great deal of the time, I can agree with Allen, but this 
	time I most emphatically DO NOT AGREE.

	No man, for whatever reason except self-defense, can be justified
	with abusing their wife or kids!  I don't know where these 
	kaka-mimi (sic) half-baked ideas came from, but to think that abuse 
	is condoned by God or that forgiveness by God is unconditional takes 
	the cake, and is most definitely not scriptural.  

	D&C 76:38 states that they shall not be redeemed "in the due time
	of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath."  Which should mean
	that everyone else would--that is the difference between a kingdom of
	glory and a kingdom of outer darkness.  D&C 64:7 says it the best:

		",..., but verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, forgive sins 
		 unto those who confess their sins before me and ask 
		 forgiveness, who have not sinned unto death."

	Since the Sons of Perdition have "sinned unto death" they have no
	forgiveness in this world or the next.  But those who would obtain
	forgiveness in this world or the next must go through certain,
	predefined steps to obtain forgiveness from God :
	
	    1.  Have Godly sorrow for the sin
	    2.  Abandonment of the sin
	    3.  Confession of the sin
	    4.  Restitution for the sin
	    5.  Obedience to all law

	If a person does not repent, then they must suffer the wrath of God
	before they are redeemed (as previously stated in D&C 76:38), and
	this is clearly stated in D&C 19:16-20.  (A much more detailed and
	extensive treatise can be found in _Mormon Doctrine_ by Bruce R.
	McConkie, pages 292-298 in the Second Edition under *Forgiveness*.)

	While D&C 76 goes about explaining who will inherit which kingdom,
	D&C 88:20-24, 27-32, 24-39 is a much better, more detailed explanation
	of *why* there are multiple kingdoms, and what *laws* each kingdom
	represents.  These scripture taken in concert with D&C 76 specifically
	show that there are degrees of glory given in accordance to the direct
	measure that obedience to the law was given.  This also indicates the
	degree of forgiveness that was allowed for that obedience to the law.

	Without God's forgiveness of our sins, we must suffer the wrath of God
	for those sins.  After the full price is paid, then we will inherit
	whatever kingdom we deserve.  But the price of sin is either our own
	suffering or the suffering that Christ has already made on our behalf
	if we would but follow his council.  The article by Boyd K. Packer on
	"The Mediator" points this out so well as well as numerous scriptures.

	To me, forgiveness is the total obliteration of whatever sin I am
	being forgiven for.  This forgiveness is conditional upon my being
	repentant enough for God to cleanse my garments white as snow.

	Charles

Hi Charles,

Unfortunately, the English language isn't perfect, and my skill with it 
leaves a lot to be desired.  Let me see if I can clarify what I meant when
I said I think God's forgiveness is unconditional.  I'm still at work so I
can only refer to scriptures in a general way.

First, we need to understand that the Sons of Perdition are an exception to
my statements.  Obviously, they have no forgiveness.  So, let's dismiss them
from further consideration.  Thus, when I speak of "all persons" I'm referring
to all except the Sons of Perdition.

Second.  D&C 76 states that everyone will be redeemed (the Sons of Perdition
being excepted, of course).  I don't remember the verse, but it is somewhere
towards the front.  For those who inherit the Celestial and Terrestrial
kingdoms, they will be redeemed at the first resurrection, while those who
inherit the Telestial kingdom will be redeemed at the second resurrection.

This is a key point.  What does it mean to be redeemed?  It means having your
sins removed via the atonement of Jesus Christ.  It means inheriting a kingdom
of glory.  To use the wording that is common in other Christian churches,
everyone will be saved [in one of the three kingdoms of glory].

Third.  The Law of Justice requires that every sin be paid for, and in ways
that we don't understand this involves suffering.  Every sin.  Well, since 
all persons (except the SoP) will be forgiven, then all sins must be paid
by suffering.  As we all understand, Christ did this.  He suffered for *all*
sins.  He satisfied Justice for *all* persons and sins.  He did this through
his grace.  We had nothing to do with it.  Our works had nothing to do with
it.  His atonement was done by him and him alone.

Fourth.  D&C 19.  Because Jesus Christ suffered for all sins and satisfied
Justice, he has the right to stipulate under what conditions his atonement 
will enter our lives.  He stated in section 19 that he requires repentance.
More specifically, he said that he suffered for our sins, and that if we
don't repent then we will have to suffer for them ourselves. 

In other words, Justice *will* be satisfied.  Suffering for each sin will
take place.  This suffering has already been given by Christ for all sins,
and if we don't repent then we will have to suffer in addition.  It's my
understanding that this is why those who inherit the Telestial kingdom are
not redeemed until after the 1000 years--they are with Satan during that time
suffering for their own sins because they didn't repent.

Fifth.  Eventually, every one (except the SoP) will be redeemed and will
inherit a kingdom of glory.  Everyone will have been forgiven due to their
repentance or their own suffering for their sins.  Since the three kingdoms
are kingdoms of glory, those who inherit them must have been forgiven else
they would go with Satan into outer darkness.

Sixth.  From my perspective, I think of this "universal" forgiveness as an
unconditional forgiveness because it is given to everyone.  I agree, Charles,
that it is conditional on our acceptance of Jesus Christ and our
repentance/suffering for our own sins, but to me it is unconditional since
literally everyone except the Sons of Perdition will receive it.  Christ's
atonement was universal and forgiveness comes to us as mercy from him.
Everyone receives forgiveness, and to me that means it is unconditional.
It is unconditional since everyone (except the SoP) will abide by the
conditions attached to it.

Seventh.  I am not saying that everyone will receive the same blessings on
the judgment day, because blessings are given in return for our obeying the
eternal laws upon which those blessings are predicated (D&C 13x).  But
forgiveness of sin is only conditional on repentance/suffering for our own 
sins and is given to all (except the SoP) because all will eventually repent
or suffer for their own sins.

I think, Charles, that we're saying the same thing.  You call forgiveness
conditional because it requires acceptance of Christ and repentance or
suffering for our own sins.  I call it unconditional because it will be given
to everyone (except the SoP) since everyone will be redeemed.

Allen

	RE: <<< Note 403.5 by ROCK::LEIGH "Feed My Sheep" >>>

	Hi Allen,

	We more than likely are on the same track, but we both know that
	samintics in this language is the pits.  I think the biggest problem
	I have is when "unconditional love" and "unconditional forgiveness"
	are put together, there is absolutely no way they mean the same.  I
	can see where everyone's sin (except the SoP) will *eventually* be
	forgiven through their own payment or Christ's, and if that is what
	you meant by unconditional then I can see it, but it is no where close
	to the love God has for us.

	Charles

>Second.  D&C 76 states that everyone will be redeemed (the Sons of Perdition
>being excepted, of course).  I don't remember the verse, but it is somewhere

	I believe I stated the exact verse in a previous reply where it was
	indicated that someone must pay.

>As we all understand, Christ did this.  He suffered for *all*
>sins.  He satisfied Justice for *all* persons and sins.  He did this through
>his grace.  We had nothing to do with it.  Our works had nothing to do with
>it.  His atonement was done by him and him alone.

	Just a nit here.  Christ satisfied justice through the atonement
	by suffering the sins of all, but by his grace are we then saved.
	He went through the process of the atonement and resurrection
	because that was his mission, not because of grace.

>In other words, Justice *will* be satisfied.  Suffering for each sin will
>take place.  This suffering has already been given by Christ for all sins,
>and if we don't repent then we will have to suffer in addition.  

	Here is where grace can come into play in that by what we do can
	hide a multitude of sins.

Hi Again,

Many LDS think of God's forgiveness as being conditional upon their good
works, that is, they have to live a life without sin and become perfect in
the full sense of the word.  When I read Paul's question, I was thinking of
it from that viewpoint, and I realized that forgiveness is not conditional
in that way.  King Benjamin tells us that no matter how righteous we are,
we are still unprofitable servants.  It is impossible in this life to reach
the point where we live without sin.  We will always sin, because we are
mortal.

As I thought about Paul's question, I realized that all people except the SoP
will be forgiven as they repent and/or suffer for their own sins per D&C 19.
I realized that since all except the SoP will be redeemed, then forgiveness
applies to all and it is universal.  I realized that forgiveness will come
to all except the SoP even though they don't reach the point in this life
of living without sin, because Jesus Christ died for all their sins.  He
requires that they repent from their sins and then he allows his suffering
to cleanse them; the hard hearted ones who refuse to repent suffer for their
own sins and then Christ allows his atonement to cleanse them too.

So, in summary, my understanding of this question is that forgiveness is
universal (except the SoP), is conditional on our repentance or our own
suffering for our sins, but is not conditional on our living lives of good
works.

The blessings we receive are conditional upon our living good works, hence
the many mansions (three degrees of glory and their divisions) in heaven.
Even then, we can never live good enough to be worthy of Exaltation due to
our own works.  We do the best we can from day to day (some days we do better
than other days) and then Christ steps in and does for us what we can't do
for ourselves.  He makes up for our flaws and problems that we can't handle
by ourselves.

I'm grateful to Jesus Christ for his love to us, his suffering in our
behalf, and his forgiveness to us.  I'm grateful he has given us homes,
friends, family, church leaders, living prophets, scriptures, good health,
employment, protection.  I'm grateful for the blessings that I don't recognize
and thus can't enumerate.  I'm grateful for his example to us.  I'm grateful
for the companionship of the Holy Ghost and the Light of Christ.  I'm grateful
to all of you noters and your faith that you share with us via this conference.
I'm grateful to DEC for letting us use its resources to develop fellowship
among us.  And, as soon as I find the bug in my program so I can go home, I'll
be grateful for that.

Allen

    Re: .5
    
    Hello Allen,
    
    Somewhere in here you are saying the exact as Charles and then
    somewhere else you sort of tangent off.  You quoted D&C 19 (or
    paraphrased) where in Jesus has requirements for the forgiveness
    he will give.  Without fulfilling the requirement of repentance,
    he won't give you the forgiveness.
    
    Equate this to working for your employer.  You promise to do your work
    and your employer promises to pay you.
    
    Thus if you don't keep up your end of the bargin then you don't
    get the paycheck or the forgiveness.  In this fashion is the forgiveness
    unconditional.  
    

Hi,

Perhaps I can add another element of confusion to this. I believe there's a 
distinct difference between:

1. God's love.

2. God's forgiveness.

3. God's power to heal.

4. The Atonement.

This last point is, to me, the most important. It is the epitome of God's 
love for us: "For God so loved the world..." It is not works that save us, 
but the cleansing blood of the Atoning Lamb. We are powerless to stop the 
fall, mortality, spiritual death, etc.

So we have to rely on the merits of the Saviour alone to save us, but we 
must meet His conditions for doing so. And this is where another distinc-
tion must be made, the distinction between:

1. Salvation.

2. Exaltation.

They do not mean the same thing. One can be saved, i.e. enter into a king- 
dom of glory, and yet that glory may not be the glory of the kingdom where 
God sits enthroned. Only if one is exalted can one actually sit in the 
presence of Heavenly Father and The Saviour.

So while we have faith that we can be saved, or even better, exalted, we 
must work for the "prize, with glory rife." And I don't think that one out- 
weighs the other in the sight of God, because I believe that the demands of 
both Justice and Mercy will be considered by the Great Judge for each of us 
on a case-by-case basis.

Therefore, even though the Atonement covers all sins except the shedding of
innocent blood, and blaspheming against the Holy Ghost, it does not mean
that all our sins will be covered if we done not repent!

Finally, I must emphatically disagree with the premise that we cannot be 
perfected in this life. I take it as a fundamental doctrine of this Church,
and one of the points of uniqueness about it that attracted me to it, that
we can know that we have received a remission of our sins while yet in this 
life.

To support my belief in this idea of knowing for certain that we will be 
exalted in the life to come, I cite:

1. Translated beings.

2. The doctrine of calling and election.

3. The doctrine of the Second Comforter.

4. The ordinances of the House of the Lord.

Sincerely,

Ken

    RE: .7
    
    > And, as soon as I can find the bug in my program and I can go home,
    > I'll be thankful for that.
    
    This can be taken two ways. One referrs to a programmer going home to
    supper.
    
    The other, if one considers that this life is a time for learning and
    hence changing our attitudes and behavior that is very much like
    finding the bug in MY program. Then I can go HOME to my eternal home.
    
    Thanks Alan for a very profound (and somewhat humorous) line.
    
    your brother
    
    Len
    

> To support my belief in this idea of knowing for certain that we will be 
> exalted in the life to come, I cite:

> 1. Translated beings.

> 2. The doctrine of calling and election.

> 3. The doctrine of the Second Comforter.

> 4. The ordinances of the House of the Lord.

Shhh. We're not supposed to talk about these things. :-)

Don't forget angelic messengers. If you look at the "common" doctrine of the
Church over the last 100 years, you'd see some big changes. The things that
Joseph Smith and Brigham Young openly talked about and preached about are almost
gone from traditional LDS thought. Sure the basics are still there, but JS had
ALOT to say, particulary about 1-4 above. Another example: the Endowment used
to be 4 8-hour days. Now it's what, 1 hour 20 minutes? They didn't speak *that*
slowly back then. What are we missing today?

Have we lost these things? Have the people rejected them?

Pondering the mysteries..
Bryan

    I think the reason we don't hear much about these types of things is
    that these things tend to be both intensely private and, for most of
    us, rare events.  I think they (can) still happen.  We just don't hear
    much about them.  As these things tend to be sensationalized, I also
    suspect that Church leaders tend not to talk much about these things
    because they can detract from the steps in the Gospel that we need to
    take and the measures we need to observe before we are eligible for
    such blessings.
    
    One interesting tangent is the events that surround near death
    experiences.  The world is beginning to take notice and even to do more
    formal investigation of such things because of the overwhelming number
    of claims regarding NDEs.  In particular, these claims tend to have
    parallel themes and details while being a relatively common event among
    diverse populations.  Typically, NDEs smack of the types of things
    mentioned by early Church leaders.
    
    Steve

The whole point of the Gospel is that it is based on the occurrence and pro- 
clamation of miraculous events.  If the believers of old avoided telling the 
world at large about their sacred experiences, they still left records for 
those who would follow, and could see the benefit of the ancient witnesses.

We call these records scriptures.  And, it is to the scriptures that people 
will turn when they want an answer to the question of the supernatural na- 
ture of God.  If we, then, claim some additional scriptural support for the 
existance and mission of God, as we do, then we are no longer "mainstream."

In fact, it should be observed that those who believed before us, and Paul 
describes they faith, and the end result thereof beautifully in Hebrews 11 
("of whom the world was not worthy"), these ancients were not considered 
mainstream humanity, either.

Therefore, it cannot be that the only reason we do not here of these won- 
derful experiences is because the Lord doesn't want "the publicity."  I would 
surmise, with Bryan (.11), that there's a deeper reason.  And I believe the 
reason is that we are not, as a people, worthy of the greater witnesses that 
are promised to the Lord's Saints.

Ken