Conference tecrus::mormonism

    One of my former Visiting Teachers sent me a note telling me how
    much she and her daughter had learned from one of the Relief Society
    lessons I taught.
    
    I treasure this note, and re-read it frequently.  When I was
    called to teach Spiritual Living - and going through some hard times
    in my family, which left me doubting my ability to teach anyone
    anything - this note gave me the courage to accept the call
    and try to magnify it!
    
    aq
    

My wife and I drove to the Washington Temple last week to attend the marriage
of a friend.  On the way down we listened to several tapes about improving
ones marriage.  One of the speakers said every family needed a jar of
"jelly beans" so the "beans" could be given when someone did something
positive (he was saying that we need to get away from the negative criticism
that is common in many families).  After he finished speaking, my wife said
she wanted to give me the whole candy store rather than a single bean, and
she spoke of something I had done that pleased her.  Boy, I felt like I was
on cloud 9 for the rest of that trip (I'm still up there).  And you know
what?  Her complement motivated me to try and do even better!

Allen

    A couple of weeks ago my wife and kids and I attended a church social
    activity. It took place, by coincidence, on my birthday. Much to
    my surprise when I entered the hall I found several balloons attached
    to my chair. I felt a little embarrassed, but I figured no big deal,
    I 'll enjoy the moment. Will .... there was more to come .....just
    as I got used to everyone staring at me.....my son walks across
    from he other side of the hall with this huge cake!! Of course,
    everyone begin to sing "Happy Birthday to You......". 
    
    I loved the whole thing.....especially my wife and kids for my 
    "birthday surprise party".
    
    John
    
    ps: The following Sunday the hall was used to handle the overflow 
        of saints as usual. My balloon provided an interesting sight. 
        You see I had given them away to the little ones(children), who
        naturally let them go to the ceiling. I couldn't help smiling
        as the kids all pointed to the heavens as we sang "He LIVES,
        MY SAVIOR......... 

    
    I had a birthday last week,and, was surprised when my son brought in a
    strawberry pie from our neighbors. It was a good feeling to know that
    they took the time to do this for me. 
    
    Last year they gave me a lot of wood they had cut and I gave them a
    fruit basket in appreciation. 
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    
    
    Every year in our town of Newport,Maine we have a "ride in".This is a
    day for snow activities and people from all over Maine ride in with
    their snowmobiles. There are activities including a dance. My band was
    asked to play for this years dance. These activities raise money for
    the Crippled Childrens Fund. I am donating my money and time for the
    fund this year. I am glad I can use my talent for this kind of
    activity.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    I am serving a Stake mission at a Branch near my home.  That means
    I don't get to see the members of my Ward very often.
    
    During Thanksgiving dinner, my brother (the only one out of 3 who
    is a Mormon and who took part in my conversion), asked me if I could
    attend Sacrament at 9:00 am in my home Ward to meet an investigator.
    This woman is a student of my brothers.  He is a professor at the
    Univ. of Lowell, Lowell, MA.  He gave her a Book of Mormon several
    months ago.  She had a spiritual experience the first week of November
    and called and asked my brother to come to teach her about the Mormon
    Church.  After talking with him, she told him she would like to meet
    me.  I knew this would cause problems with my inactive husband as
    he already thinks I spend too much time at Church on Sunday anyway (our
    usual block of meetings --- 3 hours).  The minute my brother asked me,
    I could feel the Spirit tell me that I must go and meet this lovely
    investigator, despite the contention it would cause in my home.  I
    rushed to make Sacrament for 9:00 on November 26th, and then sat and 
    talked with Anna for an hour in the hall.  Seems our husbands are almost 
    identical twins in their feelings about lots of things in life.  I knew at
    that moment, we had been put in each others path to buoy one another up
    and give each other strength ('when thou art converted, strengthen
    thy brethren').  I then rushed home and got ready to go to my regular
    calling at my Branch.  I suspect I spent nearly 6 hours away from home
    that day, but felt it was well worth every minute I had spent.
    
    The following week, while making plans to attend the Christmas
    devotional, at our Stake Center, Anna called and asked if we could
    ride together as she would like to see what the Stake Center was all
    about and broadcasts from Salt Lake City.  Just before I left to pick
    her up, I was prompted to give her a copy of a book written by Robert
    Wells entitled "We Are Christians Because...".  I already had a copy
    for myself that I'd purchased some 4 years ago, but felt prompted to
    purchase a second copy two months ago from my Deseret Book Club monthly
    purchase.  As we sat and watched the devotional, Anna was taking quick
    peeks at the book.  She experessed such an outpouring of love towards
    me, and told me the book had so many answers to questions she had, even
    though she wanted so badly to convert to the Church soon.  
    
    Anna was baptized last night in the Littleton 1st Ward, Littleton, MA.
    and I gave the closing prayer.  Anna has three beautiful daughters.
    Her oldest daughter and Anna's husband attended the baptism, but were
    not overly thrilled to be there, nor were they pleased with Anna's 
    decision to convert.  Anna's eight year old daughter Sarah, also
    was baptized last night.   Many of the Ward members showed a great
    outpouring of love towards Anna's husband Francis and their oldest
    daughter.  I took the time to explain to Anna's husband that I too 
    once assumed that the Mormon Church was a cult and I wanted nothing 
    to do with it, until the Lord came looking for me and changed my mind.
    I too was once a Catholic like Anna and her family, and I tried to
    relate that to her husband.  He seemed to be more relaxed around many
    of us after a while.
    
    Anna called me this morning so excited and on cloud 9.  After she got
    home last night, her husband sat and talked to her. He told her that
    while she had been in Church yesterday at the block of meetings, he
    picked up the book I had given her and read it from cover-to-cover
    and found it 'very interesting' (he must be a speed reader becuase
    it's very lengthy and has very small print, even though it is not a
    very large book).  He asked Anna for a Book of Mormon and said he would 
    at least give it a chance and read it, where he had flatly refused in 
    the past.  He told her that the book I had given her answered many 
    questions he had concerning the Church.  
    
    What a testimony I gained from this experience regarding listening to
    that still small voice and obeying the message given.  Now I know why
    I was prompted to buy a second copy of the book.  I pray it will do
    some good for Francis.    
    
    The righteous desires of my heart are to serve my brothers and sisters 
    on this earth, and bring them the joy of the true gospel that was brought 
    to me six years ago.  I love the Lord and His true Church.  
                             
    Penny Sousa
    DEC, Nashua, N.H.
    

    Yet another Positive message from Penny............  this seems to be
    my month for positive experiences, and it hasn't been like that for a
    Loooooooooooooooooong time.
    
    At the DEC facility that I work in,(Nashua, N.H.), we were asked this
    year to take part in an Adopt A Child For Christmas program.  We were
    allowed to choose a name of a child from a three-ring binder filled
    with names of over 200 needy children.  A first name was given, age of
    child and his/her Christmas wish list.  I chose the name of a 13 year
    old boy named John.  It amazed me that John's wish list only contained
    his need for warm clothing for school.  I was humbled by this sweet
    spirit who could have asked for a multitude of worldly things, but
    simply desired some clothes for school.  My heart was immediately
    touched and I knew I wanted to adopt John this Christmas. His clothes
    sizes were given to assist me.
    
    I can't tell you the joy it brought me to go shopping last week and
    buy John some pants, shirts and warm gloves.  I neatly packed them
    up in a box and included a beautiful Christmas card.  The spirit 
    asked me to include the words "I Love You" as my salutation, before
    I signed it "Santa".  We were asked to simply sign a tag with the
    childs name and code number and address it from Santa.  I felt a deep
    need to tell John that he is loved.  I took special care in picking
    out appropriate paper and a beautiful bow.  I felt as though I already
    knew John and he was truly my own son.  I wondered if some day we would 
    meet on the other side of the veil and get to exchange hugs and love for 
    one another.  I swelled with tears of joy and wanted to buy him the world,
    but knew I had to keep to the $30.00 limit.  This is the first time
    I have ever participated in a program like this.  Now I know the real
    value and importance of charity.  No matter what I do for Christmas,
    or what I receive for gifts, the gifts I purchased for John will mean
    more to me than anything else on earth.  I love him dearly and I pray
    the Lord will bless him abundantly, and all those who are not as
    fortunate as I am.  I pray someday that John will learn of the true
    gospel of Jesus Christ.
    
    Penny Sousa
    

    Last night we had the missionaries over for dinner. Afterwards, we had
    Family Home Evening. We read from the scriptures together and then we
    all gathered around the piano and sang Christmas carols. We had a good
    time together.
    
    In Christ's Love,
    Rich 

    For those who may have an interest in the history of the American
    Indian (and I assume Mormons would have a certain interest above
    that of the average person), the Peabody Museum at Harvard University
    will be opening a new exhibit on the American Indian next April. 
    Supposedly it will be the most complete collection of Indian artifacts 
    of its kind in the world.
    
    I attented a lecture on the Indian mound builders the other night,
    and got a peek at the uncompleted exhibit. Should be well worth
    the trouble to attend when it opens to the public.
    
    Ed

    

    
    A few weeks ago I sponsored a dance to help a child who needs a liver
    transplant. Even though I dont know the family,I keep contact with a
    relative of the family,so I can know of Jareds progress. I was pleased
    to hear they have found a donor and things are looking good for him.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

Thanks, Michael, for the update on Jared.  I saw an old movie on TV the
other day, an old Gary Cooper movie.  I missed the first part, so I'm
not sure of the name, but it was about "John Doe".  As the movie progressed,
folks began talking and doing things with their neighbors instead of ignoring
them.  As I watched the plot unfold, I thought to my self, "This is how the
world should be--everyone concerned about and caring for and helping others."

Allen

    
     Yea,I remember that movie,Allen. I used to work for a Public TV
    Station,and,we ran a lot of old movies,that was one of them. Another
    one I've always liked is "Its a Wonderfull Life" with Jimmy Stewart
    and I think,Doris Day?
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    
    "It's a Wonderful Life" stars Jimmy Stewart and Donna Reed (sp?).
    No other movie tugs at my heart strings like that one. Two of our
    local movie stations literally play this movie at least twice a
    day the two weeks before Christmas. I guess that it really proves
    how much affect we have on others lives and even our own surroundings
    without ever having a clue.
    
    Take Care,
    
    Frank

    
    
    Thanks,Frank,I had a feeling I was wrong on the co-star with Jimmy.
    I like those kind of movies,like,the Waltons Christmas special.That
    is a great one. There is so much negative stuff on TV,its good to
    have something positive to watch.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    
    This week,a newly formed Country Music organization,of which I am vice-
    president,sponsored a country Jamboree and appreciation day for a well
    known country music personality. He has been Ill and has a lot of
    medical bills. We were able to get a lot of his former band members to
    come. We had the largest turnout ever at the club we held it at. We
    donated 75% of the money to help pay his medical bills. It was a big
    success.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    
    Coming up on FEB 3rd,I have volunteered my time to entertain at a dance
    to raise money for handicap children and adults. It will go toward
    helping to find cures and better ways to help handicap people live as
    close to a normal life as possible.
    
    Michael
    

    Yesterday, I got an update on Jared. They had planned to have surgery
    done this month,but,I found out the donor backed out and,this is a set
    back. They have found another donor in England. He has been more sickly
    as of late,but,I am hopeful things will work out. 
    
    This week-end we had the fundrasing finaly for the Pine Tree Camp for
    handicapped children and adults. The clubs raised over 75,000 dollars!
    It was a great success.
    
    Sunday the 11th of Feb we will be having a Country music Jamboree. It
    will be to raise money to help the Candlelighters,a support group for
    children with cancer.
    
    peace
    Michael
    
    

I had a dream last night that concerned being positive.  The setting was a
frontier area in the 19th century.  There were several orphan animals milling
around: a lamb, a faun, etc.  They were orphans because two young children
had taken their father's rifle and shot the parents of the animals.  The father
of the two children couldn't understand why they had killed the animals,
because he had told them time and time again not to take his rifle.

The thought came to me that he had taken a negative approach with his children.
Rather than teach them to not take his rifle, he should have taught them the
value of life--all life.  Rather than teach the don'ts we should teach the
do's.

Even in the Church we are the same way.  We teach that we should avoid sin
through exercising self-control, that we shouldn't succumb to temptation.
It's true that in the beginning we have to avoid sin by not succumbing, but
eventually we have to replace that negative view with the positive view of
love.  That is, we must change from a position of resisting temptation even
though we are tempted to a position of loving righteousness so much that
evil is ugly to us and we have no desire to partake of it.

As long as we are tempted by sin, we must have self discipline to avoid it.
But we must realize that eventually we will succumb to it, because none of
us can exercise self-control indefinitely--eventually we will weaken.  Thus,
if we base our spiritual life on a lifestyle of self-control, we are guaranteed
to fail.  At some point in our life we must develop a love of Christ and
righteousness that is so strong, and a distaste for evil that is so strong,
that we follow Christ out of love rather than out of self-control.

I have an awfully long way to go in this respect, but I am beginning to see
in my life a few glimpses of hope.

Allen

Here is an assignment for all of you.

Take a piece of paper and write down all of the personal attributes of Jesus
Christ that you can think of.  This needs to be done today, because tomorrow
I'll tell you what to do with the paper.

This is more important than you may think it is, so please do it.

allen

Ok.  Now, take your paper with the list of attributes and write
the following on it.

      THAT IS ME

That's right, you may not realize it, but you have the same attributes as the
Savior.  Let me explain.

Matthew 5:47: Be ye there perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

Check the footnote to that verse and you'll see that the Greek meaning to
the word perfect means full and complete; it doesn't mean without fault.

Guess what?  We are all perfect in the sense that we are full and complete
as far as this mortal life is concerned.  What I mean is that God created us
with everything we need to reach Exaltation.  If this were not true, then it
would be impossible for us to ever be Exalted.  Even with our individual
personality traits and idiosyncrasies, we have everything we need to reach
Exaltation.  Thus, we were created perfect in the sense that we are full
and complete as mortals.

I'm not saying that we are without fault, just that we have everything we need
in this life.  God has *not* created some people with advantages over others.
Differences, yes.  Advantages, no.  We all have what we need.  Even those born
into poverty and abuse have all they need and are perfect.  Again, perfection
does not mean without fault or sin.

Of course, God expects us to take the attributes he created us with and the
conditions under which we were born and now live and to grow from them.

Now, the punch line.  Do you realize what this means?  When I realize that
my wife is perfect (full and complete, not without sin or faults), I don't
need to criticize her or be upset with her.  When I realize that my neighbor
is perfect, I don't need to be upset with him when he has a radio blaring
loudly while he washes his car.  When I realize these things, it gives me the
freedom to begin having pure love toward those persons, and thus toward 
myself.  I can go to my neighbor with love rather than anger and ask if he
would turn the radio down.  I can go to my wife in love rather than in
frustrations as the trials of living together occur.  I can be positive in
life rather than negative.  I can begin living the Gospel out of love rather
than out of guilt!

I think this is really something!  Realizing that people are the way God
intended them to be frees me from being critical and judgmental.  It allows
me to accept people the way they are instead of the way I would like them
to be.

And, returning to our paper from the previous note, it allows me to begin
developing those seed-like attributes as I follow Christ.

Allen

    Excellent note, Allen.  Thanks.  Being an old language major, I always
    had a secondary explanation for Jesus' counsel for perfection as simply 
    to be complete, whole, just as you have stated it.
    
    On a secondary note Jesus did counsel not to judge the appearance, but
    to judge righteous judgements (a reference found in John). We remember
    the Sermon on the Mount advice (Judge not lest ye be..) but have
    forgotten the advice in John about judging righteous judgement.
    
    Food for thought.
    
    Paul  

A couple of weeks ago, one of the High Councilors visited my ward and
reprimanded us for not attending a Stake Priesthood Meeting the previous week.
He was right that we should have attended the meeting, but I felt sad at the
time that he choose a negative way to encourage us to attend; he put us all
on a guilt trip.  I felt at the time that it was too bad that he didn't ask
us to search our hearts concerning our relationship with Christ and our love
for him, and then to act accordingly when he (Christ) provides opportunities
for our growth.

I can understand why the High Councilor said what he did, because we have a
history in the Church of using guilt to motivate, and I'm not posting this
reply as criticism of him personally.  My whole experience in the Church has
been mostly that of the use of guilt as a motivator.  We're told we "should"
obey God.  We "should" attend meetings.  We "should" Home Teach.  And in
hearing all these exhortations of things we "should" be doing, we feel guilt
because we realize we have faults and aren't living up to the ideal standard
that is presented to us.  In a way, we're trying to work our way into heaven
by doing all of the things we "should" be doing.

How much better it would be, if we would put the emphasis on our
developing a *real* and *living* relationship with Christ.  If we really
come unto Christ and have the change of heart spoken of in the Book of Mormon
then we *will* be motivated by love to keep the commandments of God.  I think
as a personal opinion that works motivated by guilt are not righteous works
and will be for our condemnation.  Guilt motivates for about 10 minutes and
then we're back in our rut again, only the rut is deeper.  Works motivated by
our sincere love of Christ are indeed righteous works.  

If we really have the change of heart as we accept and come to Christ, then
we *will* have works of righteousness and love, because we will *really* have
been born again.  This is the Book of Mormon pattern, and I pray that it will
be our pattern as Latter-day Saints.  This pattern has to start with each of
us individually.

Allen

	RE: <<< Note 288.22 by ROCK::LEIGH "Feed My Sheep" >>>

	Hi Allen.

	We are told to try the doctrine to see if it is of Christ.  The seed
	must be planted before it can mature.  Paul tells us that we must
	have milk before meat.  You are at the meat stage--most members are
	not.  It means that we must learn to live by the *letter* of the law
	before we can live by the *spirit* of the law.  Most of the time I
	don't thing members even know what the letter of the law is, much less
	the law itself.  This is especially true of those born into the church
	and attend primary, Sunday school, and YW/YM.  Check out a persons
	attitudes to see where they are.

	Right now you are trying to live by the *spirit* of the law, and you
	are getting frustrated by the application of living by the *letter*
	of the law.  Obedience is obedience, and will be rewarded as long as
	it is not given grudgenly.  Even if the law is not totally understood,
	obedience will be rewarded is given correctly.  What must happen is
	like you have said: "We must learn to obey through love."

	We learn to do this by first obeying the letter of the law, service
	to our Heavenly Father's children, and all the standard stuff that
	no one likes to do:

		o  pray
		o  read the scriptures
		o  attend our meetings
		o  accept and fulfil callings
		o  etc., etc., etc.......

	Keep up the good work, and strive to help all of us gain stronger
	testimonies in the work of the Lord.

	Charles

    Charles, I had to smile when I read: 
    
    .23> all the standard stuff that no one likes to do:
    
    I had a couple of thoughts on that.  First, I've noticed that as I
    strive to make a given commandment part of my life it often becomes 
    something I love to do, a real joy.
    
    Second, sort of reminds me of the cartoon showing an incredibly cluttered 
    room, with the little ones saying to their mom:  "We don't want to pick
    up toys - we want to do something to *help* you!" 
    
    Re .22, Allen, I think you have an excellent point about exhortation
    based on guilt.  I've noticed that the more I feel guilty about not
    doing something (instead of, say, viewing it as an opportunity I'm not
    currently taking advantage of) the more I avoid even thinking about it,
    much less working to improve.  That's because I, like most folks, want
    avoid uncomfortable or painful areas as much as possible.
    
    We do need to be exhorted and reminded to do things, not because we
    "should" but because these are wonderful things to do and come equipped
    with their own blessings.  I remember reading of a poster that said,
    "I will not should on myself today." 

Hi Charles,

Thanks for your comments; they put an important and necessary perspective on
my comments.

>	We learn to do this by first obeying the letter of the law, service
>	to our Heavenly Father's children, and all the standard stuff that
>	no one likes to do:
>
>		o  pray
>		o  read the scriptures
>		o  attend our meetings
>		o  accept and fulfil callings
>		o  etc., etc., etc.......

I think there is an interesting parallel between us LDS and the ancient
Israelites.  Moses was prepared to give them the fulness of the Gospel and
to take them into the presence of God, but they weren't ready for it.  As a
result, they wandered in the wilderness for 40 years.  Even when they entered
the holy land, they still weren't ready and lived a lesser law for centuries.
They were caught up with the idea of rules and regulations, things we do
because it is "the policy" or the "thing to do".

Today, many of us LDS (and I include myself in this group) are caught up in
a lesser law, one of obeying rules and procedures and doing things because of
tradition and custom.  We go home teaching because it is expected of us as
Priesthood holders, or because the Bishop or our Quorum leaders push us to
"get it done".  We get wrapped up in the things we shouldn't do on Sunday
instead of doing the things we should do.  We're still like the Hebrews to
an extent.

My comments in this reply really belong in note 400, because they concern our
coming to Christ, so I won't elaborate more.  From the viewpoint of this note,
we LDS are negative in our religious lives.  Negative, because we're caught up
in the "don'ts".  Negative, because were caught up in following the "rules"
and "policies" of the Church for the sake of the rules rather than for our
love of Christ.  Negative, because society is negative and we're influenced
by that.  

My wife and I are trying to turn our lives around and become positive.
Positive with each other.  Positive with our children.  Positive in our
attitudes about the Church and God.  Positive in our acceptance of ourselves.
It's taking time and effort, but I think we're making progress, and I know
that our relationship with each other is improving.

I think that a key point in this is that each person, regardless of who he
or she is, regardless of the background that person comes from, has the freedom
and ability to change from the negative to the positive.  We can't do it by
ourselves, but we can do it with the help of God.

Allen

Ann,

You gave two nice examples of changing from the negative to the positive, and I
would like to repeat then to emphasize them.

    [concerning something I'm not doing] instead of, say, viewing it as an opportunity
    I'm not currently taking advantage of

    We do need to be exhorted and reminded to do things, not because we
    "should" but because these are wonderful things to do and come equipped
    with their own blessings.

Thanks!

Allen

    One of the counselors in our stake presidency is this way.  When he is
    talking to us about doing things, he stresses the blessings and the
    opportunities we have to serve.  Not the opposite.  
    
    scott

    There are no punishments to any of Gods commandments.  There are only
    blessings, therefore, enforcing the idea that things should be on a
    positive note.  The negativeness that we talk about is the punnishment
    we will inflict upon ourselves.  This is something that we cannot
    comprehend, unless we have had the necessary training to understand
    what we do to ourselves (that is another subject).
    
    Allan, you are right more positive reinforcement needs to be done.
    When a person has a positive attitude, he infects others and thus
    the joy and happiness spreads.
    
    This particular note started a change in me when I first read it.  I
    have been, over the years, reading and studying a lot about changing my
    attitude.  Books like "How to win friends and infulence people", and
    lots of others of the same nature.  But, it wasn't until read your
    comments on positiveness that the puzzel began to take on form and I
    could see some resemblance of a picture.  There is more to this than we
    have discussed so far.  (I know that I may seem to be rambling).
    
    We are told we have to come to Christ as a little child.  Look at the
    way little children are dependent on their parents.  Trusting fully,
    doubting nothing, doing, obeying.  As we get older, we begin to loose
    this attitude, yet this is the very attitude that we must adopt in
    order to feel the full love of Christ.  Would a parent ever ask his
    child to do something that would harm the child.  Would Christ ever ask
    us to do something that would harm us.  And yet it seems that when we
    are given an assignment, it is too hard, or I do not want to do this
    right now.  Lots of times there are things done in the church not by
    insperation.  And yet we still take those tiny steps toward exaltation.
    I should stop before I get off the topic (if I didn't already).
    
    Anyway, thanks Allen and Ann for your kind words and thoughtful
    insight.  I believe that I have taken on a different attitude about
    people in general.  I have vowed to never let another person take me to
    the point of anger.  I believe with what has happened to me this week,
    that I will be able to keep this vow.
    
    Lee

Hi Lee,

>    I have vowed to never let another person take me to
>    the point of anger.

That's neat!  One thing we all have to learn, and this is one of the very hard
things to do because society teaches us the opposite, is that we are responsible
for our own lives.  We can't blame others.  There are no scapegoats, just us!

In terms of our relationships with others, we can only do one thing: give love.
This love can take several forms: it can be real love, it can be distorted love,
or it can be missing love, but it is still love in some form.  It seems strange
to say that we can only give love--how about hate, greed, etc.?  In an earlier
reply I explained that everyone is perfect in the sense that everyone is 
full and complete in terms of what they need to gain Exaltation.  Perfect
people give love not hate or greed; hate and greed are forms of distorted or
missing love.

Thus, when people do things that hurt me, I need to realize that they are only
expressing love the best they know how.  By realizing this, I can accept their
conduct toward me without judgment or bitterness, and this frees me to decide
how I will react to them.  I may not like their conduct, and I might choose
to disassociate myself from them, but I'm able to make those choices.  In
order to accept their distorted love towards me without being judgmental, I
must give them real love.  This is hard when there is bitterness between us,
but it is essential that I do it.  If I return their distorted love with my
distorted love, then things get worse; if I return their distorted love with
real love, then I can be non-judgmental toward them, I become free, and I can
choose what type of relationship I want with them, including terminating it
if the Lord prompts me that is best.

Thus, I'm in control of my life and am accepting responsibility for myself.
If I react with judgment and bitterness towards them, then I'm giving up my
free agency to them, and I'm guaranteed to be unhappy.  Only if I am
non-judgmental towards them can I accept them the way they are even if they
hurt me.  Only if I am non-judgmental towards them can I be free to choose my
response to them.  Being non-judgmental towards others is a high point in being
positive and is the crux of the atonement.

Allen

    A cousin of mine has just been experiencing a child going on a
    "Walking" with Anazasi (only 5 days as a "misionary preparation") But
    he (the father) has been talking about learning to "respond with a soft
    heart"
    
    In our contemplation of being positive it might be useful sometimes to
    ask ourselves "am I responding with a soft heart?"
    
    your brother
    
    Len
    

    This is not easy.  I went home for the Easter weekend.  Told everyone
    in the family about "not letting anyone get me angry".  At first this
    was rejected by all but the youngest of my boys (4 of them 23, 17, 17,
    13).  The three oldest did everything in their power to get me angry. 
    One of them kept asking me if I was angry yet.  Boy what a trial this
    past weekend turned out to be.  I do not believe for one min. that I
    lost control or broke my vow.  There were times that I wanted to,
    however, I remembered in some detail the thoughts and ideas experssed
    in this discussion and all seemed worthwhile.  I trully believe that it
    will make a difference in my family.  It seems that most of the boys do
    things to get their mother and sister angry.  I try to be a peace
    maker, but I must support my wife.  We are trying to achieve a
    celestial family (in atitude).  Since my vow, my relationship with my
    wife has improved dramatically.  We have been seperated for over 3
    years now (not by choice-mostly job related).  I have been on the road
    and she gets to stay home with all the teenagers.  BUT, now, she
    believes me when I say, that I will never get angry with her no matter
    what happens.  Unlike kids wives are not likely to deliberatly try and
    cause you to get angry.  All in all it was not the best Easter, but it
    was not, by far, the worst.  My strongest feelings came from the fact
    that I feel free from all the guilt I put myself through when I allow
    my kids to control my feelings (letting them get me angry).  It almost
    feels as good as loosing a lot of weight.  Everyone at church remarked
    how New Hampshire seems to be agreeing with me.  Little do they know.
    
    Thanks again for helping me see how to remove a great burden.
    
    
    Lee

Hang in there, Lee.  We're all praying for you.

They give you anger, you give them love.  Then you give them more love.
Then you give them more love.  Your love has to be non-judgmental love.
You must accept them as they are.  This doesn't mean that you agree with
them all the time nor that you don't have dicipline with them, but it
means that you accept them and give them the freedom to make decisions
about their life.  Before you can give non-judgmental love to your children
and wife, you have to give it to yourself; you have to accept yourself just
the way you are and not feel guilty about yourself.

Allen

In this note we're discussing the importance of being positive.  This
is important because it affects our relationships--relationships with
ourselves and with others.

Concerning our relationships with others, we need to be aware that we
can't change others.  We can try and change them but we are in danger
of exercising unrighteous control over them.  They are the only ones who can
change themselves, and we are the only ones who can change ourselves.  Thus,
the importance of our being positive concerns our attempts to change ourselves.

Because we are the only ones who can change ourselves, we need to ask ourselves
the question: what is the importance of the influence of others in our lives?

I would like to suggest that other people act as mirrors and reflect back to
us information about ourselves, and we can use that information to change
ourselves if we choose to do so.

For example, suppose I am having arguments with a child, and the child is very
rebellious and moody.  Through him or her, I see an image of myself; this
image will likely be distorted unless that child is very close to Christ, but
it is an image of me none the less.  What kind of image do I see in this
example?  Without knowing specific personalities, I can only generalize, but
I see that I may not be giving unconditional love to the child, because the
child is not reacting to such love.  I see that I am probably projecting
feelings of hostility and anger, both of which are really the lack of
unconditional love.  I'm probably projecting feelings of judgment against the
child.

I have to realize that the child is a distorted mirror, and that I need prayer
and fasting to help me understand what the child is telling me about myself.
To help me understand what this mirror is projecting back to me, I ask myself,
how would the child behave in Christ were here?  Probably very different, and
this illustrates the importance of my being positive and non-judgmental with
the child.  I can use the child's behavior to help me gage how to change my
own conduct.

Similarly, I act as a mirror to the child.  If, for example, I am really
giving non-judgmental love to the child and he or she is behaving with 
anger and frustration, then that mirror tells the child that he or she feels
uncomfortable with love, and the child can decide if he or she wants to
remain that way or if he or she wants to accept the love and respond
appropriately.  If I am projecting anger to the child, the child can decide
if he or she wants to continue receiving anger, and if not, he or she can
decide to give me love instead of anger.  Remember, we can only change
ourselves, not others.  If the child wants to receive love, it must give love.

This idea of mirrors is new to me, and I'm still trying to sort it out in my
mind, so I don't know if I've explained it very well.

Allen

Hi Lee,

I've been listening to some tapes while commuting to work from a man who is a
Seminary teacher and marriage counselor in Utah.  I enjoy his remarks because
he is extremely positive about everything.  I thought I'd pass on some of his
comments, expressed in the context of your situation last weekend with your
three sons.

Your sons and their attempts to get you angry are a positive influence in your
life and you need that influence!  (this sounds strange doesn't it).  You need
that influence, because your sons are helping you look deep within yourself
and to see that you are full of anger.  Because you need your sons to mirror
yourself back to you, you should be grateful to them, and you should have
complete forgiveness to them for their conduct last weekend.  Only when you
accept them the way they are and make no judgments towards them can you have
unconditional forgiveness towards them.  And, only when you have unconditional
forgiveness for them, can you have unconditional love for them.  When you have
this forgiveness for them, then you are coming unto Christ and partaking of
his atonement.

At the same time, your sons aren't justified in their conduct.  As they
struggle to come unto Christ, they must have unconditional acceptance,
forgiveness, and love towards you, and their conduct must change accordingly.

It's almost a paradox.  Their attempts to goad you into anger are necessary
at this time to help you grow, but that conduct can keep them from coming
unto Christ.

The key point is this: *everything* in our lives is what we need at this
point of time, because as Lehi said, opposition is necessary in all things,
and it is the opposition that helps us overcome the flesh and come unto Christ
in the Spirit, by experiencing opposition we grow.

If I'm a wife being abused by my husband, then that abuse is what I need to
help me develop humility, forgiveness, and love.  (listen to this with your
heart not your head...)  As ugly as my statement sounds, that abuse is
necessary for the wife at this point in time.  When she does develop
unconditional and non-judgmental love and forgiveness to her husband, then she
is free to decide if she wants to continue to remain in that ugly situation or
to leave it.

She is not responsible for the faults of her husband, but she is responsible
for her reaction to that conduct, and it is through this type of opposition
that she grows.  Suppose she had a kind and loving husband (yea!).  Then she
would have to develop love and forgiveness through experiencing opposition in
other ways, perhaps through her children, neighbors, boss at work, or what ever.

Some people could develop love and forgiveness without experiencing the harsh
treatment I've described, but in my example, I've hypothesized a person who
needed that treatment to grow, and in growing to development the freedom to
choose to remain in or leave the opposition.

People divorce and remarry and get into the same ugly situations, because
they didn't grow from the first marriage and fled to a second marriage, and
the Lord blessed them with additional opportunities for growth.  Much better
if those people would use the problems of their first marriage as ways to
develop love, patience,and unconditional forgiveness, etc.  Then those people
would be free to choose to either continue or discontinue the marriage, and
if they choose to discontinue the marriage, they would be free to enter a new
marriage as stronger, more loving and kind people, and their second marriage
would more likely succeed.

The eternal laws of the universe are here to buffet us until we put our pride
and ego on the alter and come unto Christ.  As we come unto Christ, then the
harshness of the buffeting decreases but never disappears, because
opposition is necessary in all things, and it is through opposition that we
grow.

Allen

    Allen,
    
    This concept of mirrors has been taught in Parenting classes for
    several years.  It is true.  However, you brought out a point that
    needs to be said again.  If the child is recieveing love and is
    uncomfortabel with that the child may choose to rebel.  Some children
    do not understand their own feelings.  These are the feelings that most
    teenagers go through as they grow out of childhood into Man/Womanhood. 
    I firmly believe no matter how much love you give a child if he is
    uncomfortable with that love, he/she must come to their own conclusion
    what they feel comfortable with in the long run.  Sometimes these are
    only short term situations inwhich the child g "grows" out of the
    uncomfortable feelings they experience as teenagers.  I still remember
    what it was like as a teenager.  Just like you said Allen, parents
    colapse the spring and when the child is away from the parents the
    spring goes off, sometimes in a different direction.  I was born and
    raised in the church.  I did not serve a mission by my choice as a
    teenager.  I did not need religion.  Now as an adult, I understand
    those feelings I had as a teenager and try to teach my kids how to cope
    with the feelings they are experiencing.  This is getting off the
    subject.  A positive attitude even when a child is going something bad,
    will re-enforce a good attitude about bad situations as an adult.  I
    have a 23 year old who has rejected the church teachings, however, I
    wish to point out one very important thing.  There is a strong tie he
    feels toward the church.  He will defend the church if any of his
    friends say something bad about it.  He does not want to give up his
    membership volentarily.  Although he does not live all the church
    principles and he "feels uncomfortable" attending church or church
    functions, he knows that is where he belongs and sometime in the future
    I believe he will return.  He has to recieve his own testimony.  The
    other kids (all teenagers) are recieving their own testimonies. 
    Slowely.  I believe that if I can continue this positive attitude
    toward them and my wife, that we will eventually achive our goal of a
    celestial family on earth.  (high hopes, I know).
    
    Thanks for letting me share my ideas in this note.
    
    Lee

    Allen, I have a serious problem with part of your note .34 - bet you can
    guess which part.
    
    >If I'm a wife being abused by my husband, then that abuse is what I
    >need to help me develop humility, forgiveness, and love.  (listen to
    >this with your heart not your head...)
    
    My heart answers:
    
    If I'm a husband whose wife is committing adultery is that also
    what I need to develop humility, forgiveness, and love?  If I'm a
    spouse whose spouse is sexually or physically abusing our children, is
    that what I/we need?  If I'm a spouse whose spouse murders me?
                 
    Yes?  Then let's turn it around.  If I am abusing my spouse, is that 
    what I need to do so that my spouse can develop good qualities?  If I
    fail to provide my family with opposition and destructive experiences, 
    is this failure in the home?
    
    I believe that there are seeds of eternal truth in some of the concepts
    you proposed, but I also believe some of the examples are so simplistic 
    and incomplete as to be not only useless but dangerous.
    
    We talk a lot about free agency, but I'm not sure it's a concept that
    we can completely comprehend during this phase of our eternal life.  I
    believe that through our agency and because of the plan of salvation,
    we can gain experience and good from even tragic or horrendous
    situations.  

>    If the child is recieveing love and is
>    uncomfortabel with that the child may choose to rebel.

>    I firmly believe no matter how much love you give a child if he is
>    uncomfortable with that love, he/she must come to their own conclusion
>    what they feel comfortable with in the long run.

Well said, Lee.

We have the potential for both physical relationships with people and spiritual
relationships.  Suppose I'm at the level of my growth where I'm able to have
some degree of spiritual relationships, but my spouse (or a child or a friend)
is at the level of growth of having only physical relationships.  I really
desire to have a spiritual relationship with that person, but if I try and do
that, the other person will feel uncomfortable and will reject my advances.
Thus, the person who controls this relationship is the person who is the least
spiritual, not the other way around.  The spiritual person must recognize this
and be willing to accept the other person on only a physical basis.  By having
this unconditional love and acceptance of the other, the spiritual person can
still grow spiritually even though this particular relationship is physical.

Allen

Hi Ann,
    
>    My heart answers:
>    
>    If I'm a husband whose wife is committing adultery is that also
>    what I need to develop humility, forgiveness, and love?  If I'm a
>    spouse whose spouse is sexually or physically abusing our children, is
>   that what I/we need?  If I'm a spouse whose spouse murders me?

I'm not sure how well I'm explaining my thoughts.  We all need to grow as we
come unto Christ, and it is the Lord's plan that we experience opposition and
that we grow from the opposition.  The opposition itself is not desirable nor
justifiable; the Lord uses sin and ugly things to buffet us until we have the
growth we need.  He doesn't force us to grow, but he allows us to be in ugly
conditions, and he lets us choose if we will grow from those conditions.  If
we choose to flee the ugliness before we have grown from it, then other
ugly conditions will be given to us to help us grow.  If we grow before we
choose to flee the ugliness, then we have less need of opposition in our lives
and can begin to find the joy that comes from the atonement.

When I speak of growth, I'm thinking of developing unconditional love
towards the person who is causing the abuse.  I think it would be very
difficult for a wife to have unconditional love and forgiveness towards an
abusive husband, but that is what the Lord expects.  The Lord will hold that
husband responsible for his actions, but the wife must accept him as he is
and be completely non-judgmental and completely forgiving of him.  This does
not mean that she must remain with him and continue to suffer the abuse, but
it does mean that she must have the pure love of Christ towards him, and in
doing that, she partakes of the joy of the atonement of Jesus Christ.


>    Yes?  Then let's turn it around.  If I am abusing my spouse, is that 
>    what I need to do so that my spouse can develop good qualities?  If I
>    fail to provide my family with opposition and destructive experiences, 
>    is this failure in the home?
    
In my previous reply, I briefly addressed this by saying that the sons weren't
justified in their conduct.  Even though the Lord uses sin and ugliness to
help us grow, no one is justified in causing the sin and ugliness.  In my
previous reply, I spoke of this as being almost a paradox.  We *must* have
opposition in our lives if we are to grow, but those who cause the opposition
will be held responsible for their decisions and actions.  The Lord does not
cause people to create this opposition; he allows us to exercise our free
agency and we choose to create it and are responsible for it.


>    I believe that there are seeds of eternal truth in some of the concepts
>    you proposed, but I also believe some of the examples are so simplistic 
>    and incomplete as to be not only useless but dangerous.
    
I appreciate your frankness, Ann, and I hope that as you have the time, you
will address my simplistic examples and explain the danger you see in them.
This will allow me (and hopefully others will comment too, one way or the
other) to clarify what has been written so they will have less chance of being
misunderstood as others browse through the conference.

>    I
>    believe that through our agency and because of the plan of salvation,
>    we can gain experience and good from even tragic or horrendous
>    situations.  

If I understand what you just said, then we agree with each other, except
I probably go one step further in saying that not only can we "gain experience
and good" from the tragic events, but that we need those or similar events
to grow.  Again, this statement does not justify those events in any way.

I need to emphasize that we need those *or similar* events.  I'm not saying
that wives need to be abused in order to develop forgiveness.  I'm just saying
that we need events that are hard for us to deal with, whether it be abuse,
mistrust, or something else.

I hope this clarifies what I meant in my previous reply, Ann, and I do
appreciate your willingness to voice your concerns about this.

Allen

    
    For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things.  If not 
    so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to 
    pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad.
    Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it 
    should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither 
    death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither 
    sense or insensibility.  (2 Nephi 2:11)


    For behold, this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality
    and eternal life of man. (Moses 1:39)

    And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do 
    the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth
    no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for
    them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.
    (1 Nephi 3:7)

These verses teach us that we must have problems in our lives, we must
have undesirable conditions and situations in our lives if we are to grow
to exaltation, *but* that God will not allow the problems to be greater than
we can handle.

Allen

    Allen, re .38, thanks so much for your reply and expanded thoughts.  In
    light of .38, I believe I misinterpreted some of your earlier statements.
    In fact, my disagreement may be one of semantics more than anything
    else.
    
    Warning:  I intend to ramble a bit.
    
    When my third child was born, I was shocked and saddened to learn that
    she had the condition of spina bifida (open spine).  The pediatrician
    told me that this birth defect rarely comes singly and is often
    accompanied by paralysis (~93%), mental deficiency, hydrocephalis, and
    sometimes by blindness and deafness as well.  He said that she had no
    indication of paralysis, but that the surgery which would be required
    asap to save her life might very well destroy nerves to her feet and
    legs (it didn't).  He said she was not severely retarded, but only time 
    would tell if she would develop normally, mentally and/or physically.  
    He said that she did not have hydrocephalis, but would probably develop 
    it (she did) and might suffer brain damage as a result (she didn't).
    
    Now, I told ya that to tell ya this:
    
    As it happened, one of the soldiers in my husband's company had a
    nine year old daughter with the same problem, but with more complications. 
    This kind man came over to our house and stayed with us while we waited to
    hear the results of the first, lifesaving surgery.  During that painful
    time, our friend remarked that he could understand why God was
    punishing him through his daughter's suffering but that he could not
    understand why God would punish us that way, since we had not committed
    the sin he was guilty of.  I was, and am, appalled.  I don't believe
    that God, our Heavenly Father, deformed either of those precious
    daughters.  In no way could I love, trust, and worship, a being who
    would do such a thing to an innocent in order to punish the guilty.
    
    I do know that I learned a lot and grew spiritually through the
    experience, so in that wise I sort of agree with your statement, Allen, 
    that our loving Father uses ugly or sad experiences to help us grow.  But 
    it's more accurate for me to say I think (this is why I begin to believe 
    it's a semantics difference) that he does not buffet us with these
    things.  Rather, if we bring our trials, sorrows, even agonies, to him 
    he will help us to meet them, bear them, and respond to them in those ways
    which will result in great good.  To me, it is more likely to be Satan
    who buffets us with these things, and tempts us to rage, hatred, and
    despair.
    
    In this vein, I also disagree that ugly conditions are given to us
    (even though they can help us grow).  I believe that our Father in
    Heaven has given us the godlike attribute of free agency, and honors
    that gift.  Therefore he doesn't need to give us ugly conditions, we
    will, through exercise of agency, make plenty to go around.  Again,
    sounds like a semantics or expression difference.  As I reread your
    note .38, we seem to be in violent agreement on this.  :)
    
    I'm going to skip ahead, then come back to my statement that some
    examples may be useless and even dangerous.
    
    I'm not so sure we need some of the atrocities (man's inhumanity to
    man) to grow, though I know our Father will help us if we call on
    him and as we strive to follow our Savior's teachings and example. 
    Opposition, yes.  Results of our own choices, yes.  Results of the
    choices of other, too.  But (and again, this is my interpretation) to 
    say that, e.g. a child needs to be sexually abused in order to learn 
    and grow sounds like saying that, since not all children are so abused, 
    that particular child needed (too easy to read: deserved what s/he got) 
    that particular experience.
    
    Now, why I did I say useless.  I've reread my note, and regret 
    that choice of phrasing.  Wish I had said, more accurately:
    
    	...I believe some of the examples are simplistic and incomplete,
    	and therefore limited in usefulness as guides to conduct, and may
    	even be dangerous in making choices.
    
    My perception is that, when we talk about violence and abuse, we may
    too easily forget or overlook the effect upon the abused.  Was it the
    March 92 Ensign that included an article by a sister who was molested 
    by her father?  In her story and others (unfortunately, there are many)
    we see that the innocent often feels intolerable levels of guilt.  A
    wife says, "It was my fault he hit me; I nagged and made him angry."  A
    victim of child molestation says, "Why didn't I say no?"
    
    Our brothers and sisters who have been victimized in these ways are 
    often only too ready to accept blame, or to feel that somehow they 
    needed/deserved this kind of treatment.  That is not true but the 
    feeling may, in my opinion, tend to lead them to situations in which 
    the abuse is repeated.
    
    You're kind to mention appreciation of my frankness.  I apologize if 
    this frankness has been rudeness, and hope you will accept
    my earnest statement that I did not (and do not) intend to offend.  If
    you are offended, I not only apologize, but also ask your pardon.
    
    Ann

	Well, since no one has taken a strong stance, I guess I will.  

	First, I must say that the love of God for his children is 
	unconditional.  We do not have to do a thing to obtain his love.
	We must, however, obey his given laws to obtain his blessings 
	(D&C 130:20-21).  

	Second, I believe that God's forgiveness is *CONDITIONAL*.  And from 
	what I have read so far, I think Allen is off his nut :-).  Most of 
	the time, a great deal of the time, I can agree with Allen, but this 
	time I most emphatically DO NOT AGREE.

	No man, for whatever reason except self-defense, can be justified
	with abusing their wife or kids!  I don't know where these 
	kaka-mimi (sic) half-baked ideas came from, but to think that abuse 
	is condoned by God or that forgiveness by God is unconditional takes 
	the cake, and is most definitely not scriptural.  

	D&C 76:38 states that they shall not be redeemed "in the due time
	of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath."  Which should mean
	that everyone else would--that is the difference between a kingdom of
	glory and a kingdom of outer darkness.  D&C 64:7 says it the best:

		",..., but verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, forgive sins 
		 unto those who confess their sins before me and ask 
		 forgiveness, who have not sinned unto death."

	Since the Sons of Perdition have "sinned unto death" they have no
	forgiveness in this world or the next.  But those who would obtain
	forgiveness in this world or the next must go through certain,
	predefined steps to obtain forgiveness from God :
	
	    1.  Have Godly sorrow for the sin
	    2.  Abandonment of the sin
	    3.  Confession of the sin
	    4.  Restitution for the sin
	    5.  Obedience to all law

	If a person does not repent, then they must suffer the wrath of God
	before they are redeemed (as previously stated in D&C 76:38), and
	this is clearly stated in D&C 19:16-20.  (A much more detailed and
	extensive treatise can be found in _Mormon Doctrine_ by Bruce R.
	McConkie, pages 292-298 in the Second Edition under *Forgiveness*.)

	While D&C 76 goes about explaining who will inherit which kingdom,
	D&C 88:20-24, 27-32, 24-39 is a much better, more detailed explanation
	of *why* there are multiple kingdoms, and what *laws* each kingdom
	represents.  These scripture taken in concert with D&C 76 specifically
	show that there are degrees of glory given in accordance to the direct
	measure that obedience to the law was given.  This also indicates the
	degree of forgiveness that was allowed for that obedience to the law.

	Without God's forgiveness of our sins, we must suffer the wrath of God
	for those sins.  After the full price is paid, then we will inherit
	whatever kingdom we deserve.  But the price of sin is either our own
	suffering or the suffering that Christ has already made on our behalf
	if we would but follow his council.  The article by Boyd K. Packer on
	"The Mediator" points this out so well as well as numerous scriptures.

	To me, forgiveness is the total obliteration of whatever sin I am
	being forgiven for.  This forgiveness is conditional upon my being
	repentant enough for God to cleanse my garments white as snow.

	Charles

	I have to also say that I think some of Allen's ideas expressed
	in this sequence of notes seems to me a bit strange.  While I'm
	sure he doesn't believed in a predestined fate for us, some of
	his statements could certainly be twisted (and only slightly twisted)
	to suggest that the doctrine of predestination is true.  Certainly
	we need to grow from whatever our experiences are, but to suggest
	that those are the exact experiences we need to gain those qualities
	seems unfounded to me.

	In this facet of life, as with others, Christ is the great
	exemplar.  Certainly he did not learn about all that he learned
	because of his direct involvement.  Much of his suffering, and
	perhaps experience, came as a proxy.  If we are truly Christlike,
	we can learn because of the sad experiences of the world, and if we
	have or are developing a Christlike love, we don't need to experience
	Auschwitz (for example) without having a deep revulsion of the
	situation.  Perhaps we cannot have a complete understanding of all
	things from our direct experience, but no one can, and we can develop
	whatever positive attributes that can be obtained from it without
	going through those trials directly.

Hi Ann,

I don't know why your daughter was born with spina bifida, but I don't believe
it was to punish you or Max.  I do believe that part of the reason was that
you and/or Max needed to learn to give love to your daughter (and to yourself).
There is a scriptural precedent for this.  Recall the story about the man who
was born blind, and the Savior was asked who sinned, he or his parents that
he was born that way.  Jesus answered that neither of them sinned--the man
was born blind that God might be glorified when he was healed.

We have to remember, Ann, that when your daughter was born, inside her body
was a  beautiful spirit that had no deformities.  We also need to remember that
the time of this mortal life is but a small moment in eternity.  And, most
importantly, we need to remember that the Savior atoned for the spina bifida
that your daughter had.  Through the atonement, your daughter was born
perfect (I'm using the original Greek definition of the word meaning full and
complete) in that she came into this world under the conditions God wanted her
to come, she was born with everything she needed to obtain Exaltation, and her
physical problems were removed by the atonement of Jesus Christ via the
resurrection.  I don't believe that God makes mistakes in his creation.  I
believe that he creates things of mortality in the conditions he wants them
to be, and that everything he creates is perfect because of the infinite
atonement of Jesus Christ.

The physical deformities that we think are so cruel and harsh are really
illusions because they don't really exist from the eternal viewpoint.  They
are but marks in the overcoats our spirits wear, and Christ has removed those
marks through his atonement.  

You were given stewardship for a choice, beautiful, healthy spirit child of
God who was perfect, and you were given the opportunity to develop love,
compassion, forgiveness, gratitude, etc. through that stewardship.

In my reply, I spoke of God using trials and opposition to buffet us into
coming to Christ.  I believe he does that, because without such trials,
hardships, opposition, sorrow, etc. we don't grow.  This buffeting by God is
a very positive thing.  He created a mortal world in which we would encounter
difficult problems, and through solving those problems, we grow to become like
Him.  The only way we will ever reach Exaltation is by our developing the
Christ-like attributes spoken of in D&C 4, and the only way we can develop 
those attributes is by having opposition in our lives.  Opposition is one of
the key principles of the Gospel; as Lehi said, it is necessary.

How does God provide opposition for us?  Several ways.  I think some forms of
opposition are created by God himself through the conditions he has established
in this mortal world.  This would include the physical laws under which the
world operates, such as earthquakes and weather.  I think it also includes the
conditions under which we are born, because I think that God determines what
the conditions will be when we come into this world.  Somewhere in Isaiah (I
think it's that book) it says that God determined the times at which we were
appointed to be born and the bounds of our habitation.

*Much* of the opposition that we encounter comes, I think, from others as they
use their free agency to intrude into our lives.  I need to emphasize again
that those who do this will be held responsible by God for their actions,
because they are guilty of sin.  But, we still have the opportunity to grow
from those sad experiences.  If we don't grow from those difficult situations,
because of pride, anger, or whatever, then we will encounter other
opportunities to have that growth as other people intrude into our lives, we
experience earthquakes, storms, or whatever.  God's purpose in all of this
is for us to gain Exaltation (Moses 1:39), and we must have the growth that
is needed for us to become like our Father.  

I'm not saying that God wants his children to be raped, murdered, or abused
in horrible ways in order that they grow.  I am saying that He does want
us to have growth that develops Christ-like attributes in our life.  Yes, we
can (and unfortunately many will) have growth from those horrible acts, but
we can also have the growth from opposition that is not so severe and
difficult for us to handle.

If we experience cruel acts, we need to understand in what ways our decisions
affected the occurrences of the acts, so we will make wiser decisions in
the future.  We need to understand in what ways the acts were caused by the
choices of others, and we need to avoid assuming guilt for the choices of
others.  We need to understand in what ways the acts were caused by physical
laws of nature.  The opposition we encounter is a blend of these three
causes, and we need to do what we can to avoid ugly situations, and we
need to learn from them when they do occur.

>    But (and again, this is my interpretation) to 
>    say that, e.g. a child needs to be sexually abused in order to learn 
>    and grow sounds like saying that, since not all children are so abused, 
>    that particular child needed (too easy to read: deserved what s/he got) 
>    that particular experience.

I'm not saying that the child needed to be abused in order to learn and grow.
I am saying that the child needed to learn and grow and that such growth can
come from the abuse; it can also come from less severe forms of opposition.
One thing that every victim of abuse needs to learn is unconditional
forgiveness; I think that would be a very difficult thing for the people to
learn, but I think it is extremely important for them to learn to
forgive.  It would be much better, of course, if those people could learn to
forgive without being abused.

I know, Ann,  that everything you've said in your replies was done in love,
and there was no offense of any kind, either intended or taken.  I do
appreciate your honesty and frankness in this discussion.  I am worried that
others might disagree or misunderstand but not say anything.  Through your
willingness to talk, we're having the chance to clarify things, and that
is important.

Allen

Replies discussing God's love and forgiveness were moved to note 403.

    Re:  34
    
    Hello Allen,
    
    I have now read .34 and understand (sort of) the point your attempting
    to make.  I, naturally, find problems with it in my heart and
    especially in my head.   If I understand you correct, you're saying
    that at least for the interim that a wife (read other person in
    relation) needs the abuse that they are being given to "grow".
    That's all well and good, but let's examine the spousal abuse for
    a second.  
    What if the spouse is unable to conprehend that s/he (usually she) 
    needs to grow and realize that s/he doesn't belong there?
    How does the home teacher act, for that matter how does a preisthood
    holder act, for that matter how do I act when I come upon a situation
    where the spouse hasn't learned this one facet and instead is more
    concerned about avoiding the next swing, the next kick, the next punch,
    the verbal put down, the next insult, etc, concerned that when s/he is 
    thrown across the room that s/he will survive when s/he comes to a stop?
    
    Am I to say to myself that she hasn't learned yet and continue on with
    my life?  Do I called the Bishop and get him to intervene?  Do I
    intervene?  What if it's me?  Do I blame the spouse, because s/he
    hasn't learned his/her lesson in life that I'm not to desired?  Or do I
    take the responsibility (and I state all, not some, but all) and get 
    myself to seek help, be it medical or spiritual?
    
    
     

Re last several except John's

Let's assume for a moment that I'm a woman who has been raped.  Let's also
assume that in trying to handle my life after the rape, I've fasted and prayed
and have reached the point in spirituality that I'm able to literally put my
ego and pride on the alter and surrender myself to Jesus Christ, and as a
result I've experienced the beautiful peace and joy that comes from the
Atonement.  Let's assume that I literally have unconditional love and
forgiveness toward the man who raped me, no bitterness towards him at all.

Now, let's put on our DEC noters hats and look at this situation.  That woman
reacted to the rape in such a way that she experienced beautiful growth in
her life and a level of spirituality that brought her very close to the veil.

Could she have obtained that growth in other, less ugly ways?  Probably yes.

Would it have been more desirable for her to have obtained that growth in
other, less ugly ways?  Probably yes, at least from our perspective it seems
that way.

I say probably, because we don't really know the answers to these questions.
It is possible that only through a severe situation such as rape would she
have taken her ego and pride to the alter and surrendered herself to God.
It is possible that without the rape, she would have continued her life as
an active LDS with a degree of spirituality but not the closeness that she
obtained as she handled the rape in her life.

I don't believe in predestination, nor do the scriptures teach it.  But, I
do believe that God brings about the conditions we need to grow and become
like him, and I believe that many times that even though those conditions
are ugly to us, they may be necessary to break down our pride.  Now, I hope
that no one reading this will generalize that I think that every rape, every
murder, every ugly situation is necessary for those who are victimized.

There was a woman named Nellie Unthank who was a member of the Martin Handcart
Company.  He legs were frozen, and she had both of them amputated.  She had
every right to be bitter toward the Church leaders who made the unwise 
decision to leave Iowa in July rather than waiting for the next spring.  But,
she realized that it was through her tribulations, including loss of both legs,
that she came to know God, and she was grateful she was a member of the Martin
Handcart Company.  My great grandfather, Francis Webster, was a member of that
handcart company, and he expressed his gratitude for the trials they
experienced, because it was through those trials that they came to know God.

From my perspective, I would say that her amputations were necessary for her
spiritual growth.  Could she have had that growth some other way?  Probably so.
But, it didn't turn out that way, and I'm foolish enough to believe that the
way it turned out was for her the best way.  None of us know, of course.
We're all speculating.

There is a true story that has appeared in the church literature.  I don't
remember where I read it, but I'll summarize it because it expresses the point
I'm trying to make.

A father had a child killed by a drunk driver.  The father grieved for days
and wanted revenge against the driver.  Finally, through fasting and prayer,
the father was able to put his pride on the alter and come to Christ.  The
bitterness and anger were replaced by peace and joy.

The father went to the home of the driver and knocked on the door.  He was
admitted by the wife, but the driver wouldn't come into the room.  Finally,
the driver came into the room, expecting the worst from the father.  Instead,
the father embraced the man and told him he loved him and forgave him.

In tears, the wife of the driver said that forgiveness by the father had
literally saved the life of her husband.  The driver had been in deep remorse
since the accident and was on the verge of suicide.  One life was lost in the
accident, but unconditional love saved another.

Could the father have developed that unconditional love without the accident
occurring?  Perhaps, I don't know.  Most of us are filled with pride and
don't come to Christ with the simplicity and humility and love that is needed
for the effects of the atonement to really enter our lives.  For most of us,
it takes something serious to really shake us up before we give our pride to
Christ.  

Can we put away our pride and really let Christ be in our lives without ugly
situations occurring in our lives?  Yes.

Will we?  That's up to us.  If we do, great!  We'll avoid some serious
problems in our lives (we'll still have opposition, of course, which might be
serious and ugly).  If we don't, then we can expect that life will buffet
us with serious hardships and problems until we do give up our pride.

Again, I'm not saying that every rape or murder is caused by God.  I'm not
saying that any of them are, because they are caused by others using their
free agency to intrude into our lives.  I'm just saying that God uses these
ugly situations to humble us, and I think that in some (many? I don't know)
cases, the pride is so strong that we need something very serious and ugly
to help us become humble.  Also, I'm not saying that those ugly things are
justified.

Allen

Hi John,

>    If I understand you correct, you're saying
>    that at least for the interim that a wife (read other person in
>    relation) needs the abuse that they are being given to "grow".

It would be better and more clear if I turn my statement around to say
that she needs the growth that can come via the abuse.  As my reply that
is between your reply and this one indicates, I think there are likely to
be cases where the abuse itself is necessary to break down our pride such
that we come to Christ, but I can't generalize that to mean that every
case of abuse is that way.  So, my comments in 34 should be read to mean
that the wife needs the growth that can come from abuse, and in many (most?)
cases that growth could also come from other milder forms of opposition.


>    That's all well and good, but let's examine the spousal abuse for
>    a second.  

>    how do I act when I come upon a situation
>    where the spouse hasn't learned this one facet and instead is more
>    concerned about avoiding the next swing, the next kick, the next punch,
>    the verbal put down, the next insult, etc, concerned that when s/he is 
>    thrown across the room that s/he will survive when s/he comes to a stop?
>    
>    Am I to say to myself that she hasn't learned yet and continue on with
>    my life?  Do I called the Bishop and get him to intervene?  Do I
>    intervene? 

    
If I observed spousal abuse, I would definitely intervene in some way.  
Depending on the situation, I might contact the police.  If the people 
concerned were LDS, I would inform my Priesthood leaders.  Depending on my
relationship with them, I might intervene myself.

>    What if it's me?  Do I blame the spouse, because s/he
>    hasn't learned his/her lesson in life that I'm not to desired?  Or do I
>    take the responsibility (and I state all, not some, but all) and get 
>    myself to seek help, be it medical or spiritual?
     
I think the person who is being abused does have responsibility to do what
he or she can to stop it, and in many cases that might involve fleeing.  I
also think that the person being abused must return unconditional love to
the person doing the abuse.  Unconditional love does not imply agreement
with the abuse.  It does not mean toleration of it.  It does mean that you 
forgive the person doing the abuse.

I hope that those who are following this conversation realize that I am not
attempting to justify those who abuse.  Abuse is sin, and those who do it will
be held accountable by God.  

Allen

	RE: <<< Note 288.49 by ROCK::LEIGH "Feed My Sheep" >>>

>But, I do believe that God brings about the conditions we need to grow and 
>become like him, and I believe that many times that even though those 
>conditions are ugly to us, they may be necessary to break down our pride.  

	I disagree that God *brings* the conditions, but that he *allows*
	them (but only if we are able to bear up under those conditions).

>Now, I hope
>that no one reading this will generalize that I think that every rape, every
>murder, every ugly situation is necessary for those who are victimized.

	Your verbage sure did lend it's way toward this way of thinking.


>Most of us are filled with pride and
>don't come to Christ with the simplicity and humility and love that is needed
>for the effects of the atonement to really enter our lives.  For most of us,
>it takes something serious to really shake us up before we give our pride to
>Christ.  

	This is mainly true, but I have my doubts that God *causes* on an
	intentional basis the events to happen.  He may allow them, but I
	do not think he will cause them.  Maybe I am wrong; do you, Allen,
	cause terrible things to happen to your children so they will grow?
	I doubt it very much.  You may allow an unfortunate incident to occur
	so they will grow, but not to intentionally cause it.

>If we don't, then we can expect that life will buffet
>us with serious hardships and problems until we do give up our pride.

	Just because we give up our pride does not mean that serious 
	hardships and problems will stop.

>Again, I'm not saying that every rape or murder is caused by God.  I'm not
>saying that any of them are, because they are caused by others using their
>free agency to intrude into our lives.  I'm just saying that God uses these
>ugly situations to humble us, and I think that in some (many? I don't know)
>cases, the pride is so strong that we need something very serious and ugly
>to help us become humble.  Also, I'm not saying that those ugly things are
>justified.

	A disclaimer at last.  For a while I was really worried.  This is more
	accurate, and I wish you had come out with this earlier.  When my 17
	day old daughter died in her mother's arms, I did not blame God
	because he had previously told me it was his will that she come back
	to him.  I accepted that while I nursed the pain of her going back.
	I look at each unfortunate situation that occurs to me to see where
	I can benifit from the experience.  Sometimes it is readily appearent
	and sometimes not, but I firmly believe in 1 Nephi 3:7 and 1 Cor 10:13
	that I will not be given anything that is too great for my to bear and
	that I will somehow overcome it.  This is what leads to growth, and
	I hope that I never have to experience rape or anything like that to
	be able to have growth in my progression to live with my Heavenly
	Father once more.

	Charles

>>Now, I hope
>>that no one reading this will generalize that I think that every rape, every
>>murder, every ugly situation is necessary for those who are victimized.
>
>	Your verbage sure did lend it's way toward this way of thinking.

You're right.  

>	This is mainly true, but I have my doubts that God *causes* on an
>	intentional basis the events to happen.  He may allow them, but I
>	do not think he will cause them.  Maybe I am wrong; do you, Allen,
>	cause terrible things to happen to your children so they will grow?
>	I doubt it very much.  You may allow an unfortunate incident to occur
>	so they will grow, but not to intentionally cause it.

You have a good point, Charles.  In general, I tend to agree with you.
However, situations that we think are ugly may not appear that way from an
Eternal viewpoint.  I've never fully experienced unconditional love, but
I think that if I truly had unconditional love towards someone who had hurt
me or a loved one, that ugly situation might appear differently than it would
if I were still judgmental towards the offender.  I say "might" because I
have never had such love in an ugly situation.


>	Just because we give up our pride does not mean that serious 
>	hardships and problems will stop.

I agree.  I tried to indicate that in some of my wording, but I probably
haven't been clear about much of what I'm saying.

In looking back over this discussion, the important points that stand out in
my mind are that, regardless of what ugly events befall us, God expects us
to have unconditional love towards everyone, and I think He wants us to learn
and grow from our trials, because opposition is necessary (that is a general
statement, folks).  As a personal opinion, I think that if we do have 
unconditional love towards those who offend or hurt us, the ugliness of the
situation may disappear, because ugliness is a form of judgment, and 
unconditional love means that we are completely non-judgmental towards others.

Allen

	re: <<< Note 288.52 by ROCK::LEIGH "Feed My Sheep" >>>

>However, situations that we think are ugly may not appear that way from an
>Eternal viewpoint.  I've never fully experienced unconditional love, but
>I think that if I truly had unconditional love towards someone who had hurt
>me or a loved one, that ugly situation might appear differently than it would
>if I were still judgmental towards the offender.  I say "might" because I
>have never had such love in an ugly situation.

	Allen,
		Ah, you are so close.  Every situation for each and every 
	person is from an eternal viewpoint *to that person*.  God has an
	unconditional love for each and every one of his children, and if
	we are to become as God is then we must develop an attitude and
	condition of uncondition love.

	This is why D&C 64:10 say we are to forgive all men (read mankind,
	male and female); Moroni 7:45 says we MUST have charity which is
	the pure love of Christ; and Paul, in 1 Cor 13, says that without 
	charity (which is the pure love of Christ) we are like tinkling
	brass (you know, make a lot of noise but nothing comes of it.)

	We must have an opposition so that we develop an *attitude* that
	is of a God like nature.  That is our mission here upon the earth.
	No matter what has been given us in this life, our attitude begats
	our behavour which controls our spirit--which is the only thing to
	continue beyond this mortal life.

	Charles

    re: 49
    
    Hello Allen,
    
    Thank you for sharing the experiences.  I, however, take exception to
    one small, but important facet.  Namely that God creates conditions for
    us to overcome.  I believe it to be more accurate that He allows
    conditions to happen.  Otherwise, then He would be rightfully blamed 
    for those rapes, murders, and other sins that He causes conditions
    to occur.
    
    But this was not the point I my original posting.  It was and still is
    this:  It's nice and better to drop the burden from our shoulders, 
    but what do we do in the meantime, before we've realized that this
    is what we are to do?  When the woman is flying across the room
    because her husband has punched her, and her concern is surviving.
    
    Your posting to which I replied dealt with (the one I finally read)
    that she has some lesson to learn in this, and additionally you have
    added that she probably couldn't have found it another way.
    
    Again, I thank you for sharing with us the events that brought members
    (and non-members) to the "alter", but prior to this how do we help
    them?  Do we intervene? Get someone to intervene?  Or do we look the
    other way until they've learned their lesson that God wants them to
    learn?  I can't think of a God that would want me to look the other
    way, until they have learned their lesson, nor can I think of a God
    that sets up conditions, knowing in advance that this will do harm,
    even for a brief moment in His timeperiod to one of His precious 
    children.  I know that I could never set up a pan of hot water 
    (eaxmple) for my daughter to reach up and pull down for any reason,
    muchless to teach her that it's not good to reach a pan on the stove.
    
    I would feel bad and dirty for putting my daughter through that, and
    I can be sure that Father would feel bad and dirty for setting up one
    of His daughters to be battered or raped.
    
    Again, Allen, it's great to let go of the burden, but point doesn't
    even get that far.  Please understand.
    
    
    

    I believe that the point Allen is trying to make is that we must be as
    trusting of our Father in Heaven as a little child is trusting in his 
    parents.  A parent does not place a hazzard in the path of a child,
    but does allow the child to experience hazzards that come up so that
    the child will grow and learn.  Keep in mind that loving parents do not
    allow hazzards to happen to their children that the children cannot
    overcome.  Let me be more spific.  I have a 17 year old who is
    graduating from High School (he will soon be 18).  I know that soon he
    will not be under my influence any longer.  I have counciled him is the
    dangers of drinking (alcohol).  He does not drink (to the best of my
    knowledge).  However, he and a group of boys are planning a trip away
    from home that would not have any parents.  Beer has been mentioned
    many times.  I could forbid him knowing that the danger he is about to
    face could cost him his life.  I could alow it to happen to let him
    test his skills.  He knows what the dangers are, he knows what can
    happen.  If I allow him to go, I could loose him forever.  If I do not
    allow him to go I could loose him forever.  Catch 22, somepeople say.
    I say it is lifes trials.  My son needs to depend on his testimony not
    mine.  I will not condone what is being done and I will not stop it
    from happening.  I could, but, will not.
    
    I believe this is what Allen is trying to say.  Not that God causes
    these things to happen, but when they happen, he makes sure we can
    handel them and then allows us to solve them and there by learn from
    them.
    
    This topic about being positive is a hard topic for people to
    understand.  There is more to Love than just good feelings.  There is
    more to love than just forgiving someone.  Love is unconditional. 
    We forgive conditionally, we should forgive unconditionally.  This
    positiveness emphases that we should forgive unconditionally.  This is
    a hard thing to do.  If we can achieve unconditional forgivness, then
    we will be one large step closer to being the positive person that
    Christ wants us to be.  Notice that I said positive not perfect.  In
    another note is the topic of perfection.  Being positive re-enforces
    perfect love.  Perfect love re-enforces unconditional forgivness. 
    Unconditional forgivness re-enforces perfection.
    
    There I believe I got these principles down right.
    
    Lee

Hi John,

Re .54

>    I, however, take exception to
>    one small, but important facet.  Namely that God creates conditions for
>    us to overcome.  I believe it to be more accurate that He allows
>    conditions to happen.  Otherwise, then He would be rightfully blamed 
>    for those rapes, murders, and other sins that He causes conditions
>    to occur.
    
I agree.  When I say that God creates these horrible conditions, I'm speaking
in a very general way, and I'm assuming that my comments are taken in context
of the Gospel as a whole, i.e. that God is perfect and without sin and can
not do sinful things.  The scriptures speak in a general way of God bringing
vengeance upon the wicked, but in actuality he does it through invading armies,
sickness, floods, or whatever.  The scriptures say God does it, but as you
pointed out, it is more accurate to say that he allows it.

Re .55

You mentioned, John, that you are very close to reaching the point in your
growth where you can forgive someone who abused you.  A question that you
will need to answer for yourself when you reach that point of forgiveness and
love is the following: Could you have reached that point in your growth
without that abuse?  None of us reading this note can answer that question,
and I don't know if you will be able to answer it either--I'm sure that you
can't honestly answer it now, because you haven't reached the point yet of
having unconditional love towards that person.  It is a question that will
need answering when the time comes: Could you have reached that point in your
growth of having unconditional love and forgiveness if the abuse had never
occurred.

The Prophet Joseph Smith was very concerned about the murders, rapes, abuse
that was happening to the Saints.  He pleaded with the Lord to find out how
much longer this abuse would continue.  As recorded in D&C 121, the Lord
answered that the abuse would be but a small moment.  He reminded Joseph that
he (Christ) had suffered much more than the Saints were suffering.  Then, the
Savior made a remarkable statement.  He said the abuse and horrible things
the Saints were suffering would be for their good because it would give them
experience.  Murders, rapes, etc. would be for their good.  Nothing in D&C
121 implies that Jesus inspired the mobbers to commit those crimes, Satan
fulfilled that roll quite well, but Jesus knows that we all need opposition
in our lives to grow.

This is the point I've been trying to make in my feeble attempts to express
my thoughts in written word.  We live in a wicked world, a world pretty much
governed by Satan.  People will do hurtful things to us.  The Lord allows
this to happen, because it is for our good and our growth.  Through
opposition, we learn to love and to forgive, and to have compassion, and
to become like Christ.  The people who inflict the harm on us will be
held accountable for their actions in hurting us.  We must do what we can to
avoid the danger and keep ourselves and loved ones in a safe condition.  But,
harm and hurt will still befall us even though we don't go out seeking it.

We need to have the positive attitude expressed by Jesus in D&C 121 that 
ugly things can be good for us if we will let them.  My personal opinion is
that we all have to have some amount of ugly things happen to us so we will
learn humility, love, forgiveness, compassion, etc.  If life were a bed of
roses, we wouldn't learn those things; we need a few thorns to poke us.  We
don't poke each other with the thorns, and we don't go looking for the thorns.
Mortality is such that the thorns will find us, and I believe the Lord 
protects us so the thorns won't be greater than we can handle.  But, we still
need the thorns to help us grow.

Allen

    Re: .57
    
    Hello Allen,
    
    Without the slightest hesitation I can state YES, I could have 
    reached that point without the abuse.
    
    My daughter (ok, so she's only 17 months) has unconditional love
    for me.  If I can do it the abuser could have done it too.
    
    It's not as difficult as your trying to make it sound.  Abuse is
    not a requirement for having unconditional love afterwards.  And I could 
    have done without this "lesson" thank you very much.  Dysfunctional
    families (there I said it) are just that.  It is evil pure and simple.
    God is there if and when you need Him.  I am sure that He cries and
    is sorrowful that His children are doing this to each other, but they
    have there free agency and that's that.
    
    If in the unlikely hood that abuse is required for a person to have
    the unconditional love afterwards, then why isn't everyone abused.
    
    Colouring the picture over and saying that is the abused person is
    better off now, because they've learned "unconditional love" is quite 
    callous.  If this is your position I highly recommend you rethink your 
    statements.
    
    God does not cause evil to occur, but He allows it happen, because those
    doing it have their free agency which they are misusing, but theirs
    nevertheless.
    
    -- John.

Hi again,

>    Dysfunctional
>    families (there I said it) are just that.  It is evil pure and simple.

I agree.  I've tried to make it clear in previous replies that I think that
those who abuse are committing sin and will be held accountable for their
evil actions.

>    God is there if and when you need Him.  I am sure that He cries and
>    is sorrowful that His children are doing this to each other, but they
>    have there free agency and that's that.
    
I agree.


>    If in the unlikely hood that abuse is required for a person to have
>    the unconditional love afterwards, then why isn't everyone abused.
    
I'm not saying that everyone has to be abused before they can develop
unconditional love.  I'm not even saying that anyone has to be abused
before they can develop unconditional love.  I am just saying that abuse
which is a very negative thing can be turned into a positive thing and can
be the conduit for our becoming closer to Christ, if we will make it so.

I am saying in a *very general* way that we do have to have opposition in
our lives, I say that because Lehi said it and I won't argue with him.  It
is through opposition that we grow.  Abuse is an extreme form of 
opposition, and I do think that it *can* be a conduit for our growth if it
occurs.  We don't go looking for abuse, and we shouldn't cause it, but if
it does happen, then it is to our advantage to try and make it become a
positive thing in our lives.

The story I gave in a previous reply about the father whose daughter was
killed by a drunk driver illustrates how an ugly thing can become a beautiful
thing (please don't interpret this to mean that I'm saying that it was
beautiful that the girl was killed; the accident was a tragic, sad, event,
but the situation that existed afterwards became a beautiful thing).

>    Colouring the picture over and saying that is the abused person is
>    better off now, because they've learned "unconditional love" is quite 
>    callous.  If this is your position I highly recommend you rethink your 
>    statements.
    
If a person is abused, and he or she can use that ugly situation as a means
of developing Christ-like love toward the person who caused the abuse, then
I do think he or she is better off than if he or she developed fear, anger,
revenge, hatred.  I think the person would have been better off if the abuse
had not happened, unless that were the *only* way he or she could have
developed unconditional love.  Those who reach exaltation will have Christ-like
love, and *if* a person has to suffer abuse in order to develop unconditional
love, then that is what is needed in that person's life.  God will not inflict
the abuse on the person but will allow others through their free agency to
do so.  If people can develop unconditional love without suffering abuse or
other trials, then that is *much* better.  Please keep in mind that I'm
speaking in a very hypothetical way.

To clarify what I just said: Everyone who is abused or suffers other difficult
trials experiences fear, hatred, guilt, bitterness, etc.  Most people stay in
that condition; they have become enslaved by their trials and abuse.
A few people react to the abuse by taking their pride to the Savior and
allowing his atonement to come into their lives.  Through this experience,
the fear, guilt, bitterness is replaced with peace, joy, love.

The abuse didn't make them a better person, for abuse is ugly and destructive.
It was their reaction to the abuse, their humility, and their coming to Christ
that made them a better person.  Could they have gone to Christ in that way
and allowed the atonement to come into their lives without their suffering
abuse?  Hopefully.  I'm speculating (and it is nothing more than that) that
there are people who are so full of pride that they won't come to Christ
in any other way except through experiencing opposition, problems, trials.

John, a question for you.  In your opinion, what did the Savior mean when he
said in D&C 121 that the murders, rapes, etc. the Saints were suffering were
for their good because it would give them experience?

>    God does not cause evil to occur, but He allows it happen, because those
>    doing it have their free agency which they are misusing, but theirs
>    nevertheless.
    
I agree, and I hope I've made that clear in my past replies.

Allen

The verses I referred to where the Lord said the mobbings being suffered
by the Saints would be for their good are in Section 122 not 121.

While a prisoner in the Liberty Jail in 1839, Joseph Smith received the
following counsel from the Lord:

5.  If thou are called to pass through tribulation; if thou are in perils
among false brethren; if thou art in perils among robbers; if thou art in
perils by land or by sea;

6.  If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine
enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father
and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine
enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife and of thine offspring, and
thine elder son....and if thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies
prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb;

7.  And if thou should be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers,
and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep;
if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine 
enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to
hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the
mouth wide after thee, KNOW THOU, MY SON, THAT ALL THESE THINGS SHALL GIVE
THEE EXPERIENCE, AND SHALL BE FOR THY GOOD. [caps mine]

8.  The Son of Man hath descended below them all.  Art thou greater than he?

9.  Therefore, hold on thy way, and the priesthood shall remain with thee;
for their bounds are set, they cannot pass.  Thy days are known, and thy 
years shall not be numbered less; therefore, FEAR NOT WHAT MAN CAN DO, for
God shall be with you forever and ever. [caps mine]


The Saints were counseled that the horrible things being inflicted on them
in Missouri [as bad if not worse than the abuse we've been discussing in
this note] would (a) give them experience, and (b) be for their good.

We need to ask ourselves what experience would abuse give them?  Certainly
not experience in being abused!  I think the Lord was referring to experience
in learning love, humility, forgiveness, compassion, that is Charity, from
our suffering.  If people who are abused can learn these things, that is
come closer to Christ, then their abuse was in fact for their good.

The Lord made it clear in verse 9 that the evil persons inflicting the abuse
would be limited by the Lord in how far they could go in inflicting abuse
on the Saints (their bounds are set).

Also while in the Liberty jail, the Prophet pleaded with the Lord to know
how long the sufferings of the Saints would last.  His pleas are in
D&C 121:1-6.  The Lords answer begins with verse 7.

7.  My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions
shall be but a small moment [wonderful if we can have an eternal perspective
of our problems];

8.  And then, IF THOU ENDURE IT WELL, God shall exalt thee on high; thou
shalt triumph over all thy foes. [caps mine]

There it is again: if we endure our trials, opposition, abuse, problems and
come to Christ then we shall be blessed.

The Lord made it very clear in subsequent verses of that Section that those
who caused the abuse of the Saints are wicked people and will be held
accountable for their sinful actions.  

In my previous replies to this note, when I said we needed abuse, I was
not referring to the pain, anger, depression, injury, fear that results from
abuse.  I was referring to the growth that comes from our suffering if we
come unto Christ because of the suffering.  The problems we suffer in life,
including abuse, can give us experience and be for our good if we will let
them, or they can be for our destruction if we want that to happen.  The
abuse comes because of the wickedness of others, but what we learn from
the abuse and whether we grow in spirituality because of it is up to us!

Allen

               <<< Note 288.59 by ROCK::LEIGH "Feed My Sheep" >>>

Hi Allen,

(note comments by John are indented, that's me)
>    Colouring the picture over and saying that is the abused person is
>    better off now, because they've learned "unconditional love" is quite 
>    callous.  If this is your position I highly recommend you rethink your 
>    statements.
    
If a person is abused, and he or she can use that ugly situation as a means
of developing Christ-like love toward the person who caused the abuse, then
I do think he or she is better off than if he or she developed fear, anger,
revenge, hatred.  

   I agree with everything up to this point.  An abused person is better off
   if they had not *ever* been.  But I need to add that without the abuse
   the abused person wouldn't have to had dealt with the fear, anger, revenge,
   and hatred in the first place, thus would have had a higher level of 
   unconditional love.  

I think the person would have been better off if the abuse
had not happened, unless that were the *only* way he or she could have
developed unconditional love.  Those who reach exaltation will have Christ-like
love, and *if* a person has to suffer abuse in order to develop unconditional
love, then that is what is needed in that person's life. 

   This is where we reach a major problem.  Please read this carefully before
   responding.  There is absolutely no reason why anyone not matter what
   excuse is stated, why a person needs to be abused in order to grow.
   No one in his or her right mind can possibly think of such a thing,
   except as my wife put it to me last night: A perpertrator.  Does that
   state that you might or are one?  No, it states that this is the mode of
   thought of one.  Allen, on one hand you're saying this is ugly and on the
   other you are saying that maybe this was necessary or "*only* way".
   No one *needs* this type opposition to grow.

   Do you see what I'm talking about?  Can you understand this?

To clarify what I just said: Everyone who is abused or suffers other difficult
trials experiences fear, hatred, guilt, bitterness, etc.  Most people stay in
that condition; they have become enslaved by their trials and abuse.
A few people react to the abuse by taking their pride to the Savior and
allowing his atonement to come into their lives.  Through this experience,
the fear, guilt, bitterness is replaced with peace, joy, love.

The abuse didn't make them a better person, for abuse is ugly and destructive.
It was their reaction to the abuse, their humility, and their coming to Christ
that made them a better person.  Could they have gone to Christ in that way
and allowed the atonement to come into their lives without their suffering
abuse?  Hopefully.  I'm speculating (and it is nothing more than that) that
there are people who are so full of pride that they won't come to Christ
in any other way except through experiencing opposition, problems, trials.

    Yes, you are indeed speculating.  There are a variety of books available
    on the subject of abuse.  Check out TOXIC PARENTS and THE ULTIMATE
    BETRAYAL.  


John, a question for you.  In your opinion, what did the Savior mean when he
said in D&C 121 that the murders, rapes, etc. the Saints were suffering were
for their good because it would give them experience?

    I don't know?  When I see Him, we'll talk about it.

>    God does not cause evil to occur, but He allows it happen, because those
>    doing it have their free agency which they are misusing, but theirs
>    nevertheless.
    
I agree, and I hope I've made that clear in my past replies.


    No, actually.  But in time the matter will clear it self up.  Sort of
    like acne.  It's inflamed for the first couple of days then it goes
    away.

Allen

    John.

    Allen, thank you very much for your words in .59:
    
    >I'm not saying that everyone has to be abused before they can develop
    >unconditional love.  I'm not even saying that anyone has to be abused
    >before they can develop unconditional love.  I am just saying that
    >abuse which is a very negative thing can be turned into a positive
    >thing and can be the conduit for our becoming closer to Christ, if we
    >will make it so.
    
    I appreciate the time and thought you've put in to making your position
    clear because it has helped me to better understand your thoughts.
    
    About Doctrine and Covenants 122:  The Savior was speaking personal
    revelation directly to Joseph Smith, Junior.  As we read and study (and
    feast upon and delight in) the scriptures, it's important to know who
    was being addressed.  I believe that what is given to us in scripture
    is for the edification and education of all.  I also believe that there
    are specific revelations and commandments - the commandment Nephi
    received concerning Laban comes to mind - which were literally to the 
    recipient and only generally for others.   That is, when I read 1 Nephi, 
    I take personally the lesson to trust the Lord and obey his commandments, 
    but do not feel that I should look for a "Laban" in my life and kill
    him or her.
    
    I am very glad that so many share their thoughts and feelings here, and
    hope we continue to teach one another.
    
    aq
                                          

Hello Allen,

I read D&C 121.  I think my opinion would be Christ was talking to Joseph
about his afflictions.  Or in the larger scope, of the afflictions of the
people to the extent that they (the afflictions) were "only for a moment".

There was a lot of WOE to those that do this (the afflictions -- if I read
it correctly) that it "would have been better if the had a millstone 
around their necks and drowned." 

But I can't see where it states that these afflictions are for their benefit.

Anyway, that my last response (I think) in this particular subject.

BTW, I realized that I have forgiven my abuser and have unconditional
love for the person.  I also have a scar.  The understanding I was given 
is that though I have forgiven the person, it does not mean I won't remember 
it from time to time, which happens from time to time.  But I can let it go 
and have.  The knowledge I have is that this is now in the Lord's hands.
Also, there will always be people that bring up "trigger words" or "trigger
phrases".

So I state again that yes I could have done without the abuse and that
it wasn't necessary to attain this degree of unconditional love.  The
scar is always be there... forever and ever.

Allen, thanks for pushing me out the door and into my life.

-- John.

Hi John,

>BTW, I realized that I have forgiven my abuser and have unconditional
>love for the person.

That's wonderful, John!  To carry bitterness in ones heart toward
another is an awfully heavy burden to carry, and to reach the point where
you can give that burden to Christ and allow the atonement to come into your
life and bring peace and joy is wonderful!

Allen

Hi Ann,

The heading to Section 122 contains a reference to the Volume 3 of the
History of the Church.  I looked up that reference last night and learned
something about Sections 121, 122, and 123 that I didn't know.

Those three sections were part of a *long* letter that Joseph Smith sent
to the Saints while he was a prisoner in the Carthage jail.  The letter
was signed by Joseph Smith, Jun., Hyrum Smith, Lyman Wight, Caleb Baldwin,
and Alexander McRae.

This was a time during which the Saints were being mobbed and were
suffering terrible abuse.  Joseph was concerned that he couldn't be with
the Saints, and he wrote letters to given them encouragement and support
during this difficult time.

The letter in question is dated March 25, 1839, and it is addressed as
follows:

   To the Church of Latter-day Saints at Quincy, Illinois, and 
   Scattered Abroad, and to Bishop Partridge in Particular:

It contains general counsel to the Saints as well as comments on specific
problems that were facing the people.  Included in the letter are revelations
given directly to Joseph Smith.  It seems clear from the letter that the
Prophet quoted those revelations in the letter because he wanted to apply
the revelations to the Saints at this dark time in their lives.

The letter was published in the 'Times and Seasons' newspaper shortly
after it was received by the Saints.  It was about 30 years later that
Orson Pratt extracted from it the portions that we know today as Sections
121, 122, and 123.  A footnote on page 289 of Volume III of the history
states that those portions "were regarded of such special value" that they
were were placed in the Doctrine and Covenants.

The portions that became Sections 121, 122, and 123 are scattered throughout
the letter.  In my next reply, I will give portions of the letter that
concern trials and tribulations to give a context to those three Sections.
The full letter comprises pages 289 through 305 of the history.

Allen

....

We are driven from our homes and smitten without cause.  We mutually
understand that if the inhabitants of the state of Missouri had let the Saints
alone, and had been as desirable of peace as they were, there would have
been nothing but peace and quietude in the state unto this day; we should not
have been in this hell, surrounded with demons (if not those who are damned,
they are those who shall be damned) and where we are compelled to hear
nothing but blasphemous oaths, and witness a scene of blasphemy, and
drunkenness and hypocrisy, and debaucheries of every description.

And again, the cries of orphans and widows would not have ascended up to God
against them.  Nor would innocent blood have stained the soil of Missouri.
But oh!  the unrelenting hand!  The inhumanity and murderous disposition
of this people!  It shocks all nature; it beggars and defies all description;
it is a tale of woe; a lamentable tale; yea a sorrowful tale; too much to
tell; too much for contemplation; too much for human beings; it cannot
be found among the heathens; it cannot be found among the nations where
kings and tyrants are enthroned; it cannot be found among the savages of the
wilderness; yea, and I think it cannot be found among the wild and ferocious 
beasts of the forest--that a man should be mangled for sport!  women be
robbed of all that they have--their last morsel for subsistence, and then
be violated to gratify the hellish desires of the mob, and finally left to
perish with their helpless offspring clinging around their necks.

But this is not all.  After a man is dead, he must be dug up from his grave
and mangled to pieces, for no other purpose than to gratify their spleen 
against the religion of God.

They practice these things upon the Saints, who have done them no wrong,
who are innocent and virtuous; who loved the Lord their God, and were
willing to forsake all things for Christ's sake.  These things are awful to
relate, but they are verily true.  It must needs be that offenses come,
but woe unto them by whom they come.

Oh God!  where art Thou?  and where is the pavilion that covereth Thy
hiding place?  How long shall Thy hand be stayed, and Thine eye, yea Thy
pure eye, behold from the eternal heavens, the wrongs of thy people , and
of Thy servants, and Thy ear be penetrated with their cries?  Yea, O Lord,
how long shall they suffer these wrongs and unlawful oppressions, before
Thine heart shall be softened towards them, and Thy bowels be moved with
compassion towards them? ....

My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall
be but a small moment; and then if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee
on high; ....

And now, beloved brethren, we say unto you, that inasmuch as God hath said
that He would have a tried people, that he would purge them as gold, now we 
think that this time He has chosen His own crucible, wherein we have been
tried; and we think if we get through with any degree of safety, and shall 
have kept the faith, that it will be a sign to this generation, altogether
sufficient to leave them without excuse; and we think also, it will be a
trial of our faith equal to that of Abraham, and that the ancients will not
have whereof to boast over us in the day of judgment, as being called to
pass through heavier afflictions; that we may hold an even weight in the 
balance with them; but now, after having suffered so great sacrifice and
having passed through so great a season of sorrow, we trust that a ram may
be caught in the thicket speedily, to relieve the sons and daughters of 
Abraham from their great anxiety, and to light up the lamp of salvation
upon their countenances, that they may hold on now, after having gone so 
far unto everlasting life. ....

And now, brethren, after your tribulations, if you do these things, and
exercise fervent prayer and faith in the sight of God always, He shall
give unto you knowledge by His Holy Spirit, yea by the unspeakable gift
of the Holy Ghost, ....

If thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee;
if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all
the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of 
hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that 
all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.
The Son of Man hath descended below them all; art thou greater than he?

Therefore, hold on thy way, and the Priesthood shall remain with thee, for 
their bounds are set, they cannot pass.  Thy days are known, and thy years
shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall
be with you forever and ever.
....

    This discussion has given me a different insight towards "Unconditional
    love". It seems that for most of us, love is a response to other's
    behavior and percieved state of being, and love is dampened by negative
    events. An example of this is when a young man gets thrilled because a
    girl talked to him (behavior), because he thinks she is really special
    (state of being) yet if she talked rudely to him (negative event) then
    the thrill is gone.  When we progress to being able to love someone 
    even though they did something bad to us, it is often based on our 
    arriving at some understanding of why that bad thing was to some degree
    out of their control. This is certainly better than the first kind of
    love, but is it really unconditional? or is it replacing one condition
    (that they not do anything bad to us) with another (that in some way it
    was not really their fault).
    
    What occurred to me is that unconditional love, reallly without any
    conditions would be different. In true unconditional love it would not
    matter what the other person may have done for or to us. It just would
    not affect the love in any way.
    
    When a father looks at a new baby and feels this great love, is it
    really unconditional? Perhaps as mortals we can't really know. There
    are certainly reasons that it might be normal mortal love (state of
    being: Flesh of my Flesh, behavior: to submit to my care, and look at
    me).  If as the years go by that same child does things that are
    negative to that father, and if then it does not make any difference in
    the love that that father feels for that child, then that father can
    know that that is is unconditional.
    
    If on the other hand, that father recoils at the negative experience,
    then later gets things in a better perspective and learns that it
    really doesn't make a difference to the love for that child, then that
    father may have developed a more unconditional love, AS A RESULT OF the
    negative experience.
    
    But if we really knew unconditional love, Then we would feel a strong
    warm love feeling towards ALL OF MANKIND, because they are all, as
    children of God, intrinsically valuable, our own kindred and
    appropriate recipients of our love.
    
    In allen's story of the man embracing the man who had killed his
    daughter, this is not like as if he were feeling "it is not really his
    fault" but rather as if he were actually feeling empathy for the other
    man, as if he could feel some of the pain of the man who killed his
    daughter. That to me seems more like unconditional love.
    
    In other words, if a child finally comes to the point of "forgiving" an
    abusive parent, that is progress, but that is not really unconditional
    love. It seems that unconditional love would be learning to feel a
    genuine love and concern for that parent regardless of whether the
    abuse continues, and regardless of whether the parent recognizes it or
    asks for forgiveness.
    
    Now what I describe there may get confused with a "co-dependent" type
    of need for the person who is abusing. but that is not what I am
    talking about. Co-dependency deals with belittling and devaluaing ones'
    self. It seems that unconditional love would be independent of how one
    views him/herself but in practice one needs to accept oneself quite
    well to be able to feel unconditional love. Otherwise one mostly feels
    personal need.
    
    I certainly have a long way to go in this area, but find that one of
    the things that is necessary to help me learn hos to do this, is to
    recieve a great deal of pain at the hands of someone that I need very
    much. This sets a stage or context from which I can start to understand
    that all the factors of my needs and the other person's behavior adn
    etc, are really just clouding the real issue. Therefore the painful
    experiences are a necessary part of the learning experience.
    
    May the Lord bless each of us,
    
    Len
    

    Dear John,
    
    This is your friend from Arizona (I used to live in your ward). Say Hi
    to Kate and Barbara and John for me and my family.
    
    You mentioned that you will always bear a scar from the negative
    experiences that you suffered. I am very glad how you have grown to be
    able to forgive and move on. I know that the normal experience of
    people that have suffered as you have is to carry that scar with them
    forever. But I would like to suggest that perhaps you don't have to.
    Jesus really atoned for all of our sins, including those of abuse. His
    atonement is so perfect (complete, whole) that it can take away the
    sin to the point that "I the Lord remember them (the sins) no more"
    (sorry I don't remember the reference but it is the D&C). Not only can
    his atonement take away even His memory of the sins away from the the
    repentant sinner, but it can also heal the victims.
    
    Dear Brother John, I witness to you that the Lord Jesus Christ can even
    take away, your pain, your suffering, your scars, your trigger phrases,
    and yes even some day, your memory those awful events. Trust in Him,
    focus on Him and focus on the eternal value and great worth of all of
    us as children of God. Then someday, it will all be gone. Funny thing
    is that we don't recognize to well when that day comes that we forget,
    because --- we have forgotten ----.
    
    With Love,
    
    Len
      

     <<< Note 288.67 by TEMPE::LENF "Len F. Winmill @TFO, DTN 566-4783" >>>
                            -< Unconditional Love >-

    
    In other words, if a child finally comes to the point of "forgiving" an
    abusive parent, that is progress, but that is not really unconditional
    love. It seems that unconditional love would be learning to feel a
    genuine love and concern for that parent regardless of whether the
    abuse continues, and regardless of whether the parent recognizes it or
    asks for forgiveness.
    
    May the Lord bless each of us,
    
    Len

Hello Len,
    You absolutely right!  Somehow I didn't catch the "sly" twist of the 
    discussion, I have always had unconditional love for the person, I just
    didn't like the person behavior.  I have recently *realized* that I have 
    forgiven the person.  But in that one event only.  I will have to attain
    the ability to forgive the person and others as events unravel in this 
    mission.

    Examples of unconditional love and forgiveness that I can think of
    are the Sons of Perdition and some one from our recent history Adolf
    Hilter.  I don't believe that the Father has hatred (opposite of love
    -- we know that that) towards them but likewise doesn't like their 
    behaviour.

    I have laid situation in the Son's hands and will allow him to deal
    with the matter.

    So I quess this puts the discussion back at unconditional love and
    no unconditional forgiveness, but conditional forgiveness.

-- John.

     <<< Note 288.68 by TEMPE::LENF "Len F. Winmill @TFO, DTN 566-4783" >>>
                   -< This too shall pass -even the scars-. >-

    Dear Brother John, I witness to you that the Lord Jesus Christ can even
    take away, your pain, your suffering, your scars, your trigger phrases,
    and yes even some day, your memory those awful events. Trust in Him,
    focus on Him and focus on the eternal value and great worth of all of
    us as children of God. Then someday, it will all be gone. Funny thing
    is that we don't recognize to well when that day comes that we forget,
    because --- we have forgotten ----.
    
    With Love,
    
    Len
Hello my old friend,
    
    And I am always looking forward to that day!  Even till not realizing
    that that day arrived for I will be complete again!

    Take care,


    -- John.
      

My Ward had its annual conference last Sunday.  One of the speakers from the
Stake was a woman whose husband has become blind from a brain tumor.  She
expressed her appreciation for all of the love and assistance she has received
from others.  Then she commented that she realizes that this trial in her
life is actually a blessing (her words), because it is bringing her closer to
the Lord.

Allen