T.R | Title | User | Personal Name | Date | Lines |
---|
188.1 | The TRUTH About 'The God Makers' | CLIMB::LEIGH | My soul hungered; and I kneeled down | Fri Nov 18 1988 19:56 | 58 |
| <<< CACHE::USER3:[NOTES$LIBRARY]MORMONISM.NOTE;1 >>>
-< The Glory of God is Intelligence >-
================================================================================
Note 97.20 The Godhead 20 of 41
CACHE::LEIGH 50 lines 11-AUG-1988 11:16
-< "The TRUTH About 'The God Makers'" >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re .10, .18
To those who have either read or seen "The God Makers", I recommend that
they also read "The TRUTH About The God Makers" so they can have a balance
in their study.
This book analyzes "The God Makers" line by line and explains from the
viewpoint of a Mormon why the information being presented in "The God Makers"
is biased and distorted.
The TRUTH About The God Makers, Gilbert W. Scharffs, Publishers Press,
Salt Lake City, Utah, 4th printing, 1986, (available through LDS
bookstores in your area; $10.95)
From the Cover:
In their book and movies the authors of "The God Makers" characterize The
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a dangerous and immoral fraud.
In his response Gilbert Scharffs rebuts this charge and asserts his reasons
for accepting that organization as the true church of the Master.
While the book and the movie make similar charges, this response is specific
to the book. It is in two major parts: an overview giving brief responses
for quick reference, and a point-by-point analysis that sets out the charges
and supplies detailed answers and explanations. Using this pattern along
with a simple, convenient reference system that relates the charges to the
answers, this book addresses the issues raised by "The God Makers"--issues
such as polygamy, grace vs. works, the LDS church's alleged ambition for world
domination; Latter-day Saints and the Savior's second coming; the route to
godhood; temple ceremonies; Masonry, Mormonism, and the "occult"; to mention
only a few. From his background of doctrinal and historical scholarship plus
research specific to this purpose, and bringing biblical and other scriptures
to his aid, Dr. Scharffs corrects the misinterpretations, misconstructions,
factual mistakes, historical inaccuracies, false premises, and other errors
he finds in "The God Makers", and sets forth the true facts as he sees them.
Despite the offensive tone and the multitude of inadequacies the author
perceives in "The God Makers", the tone of his book is restrained and dignified,
and the content is a reasoned case for the faith and convictions he professes.
Readers of all religious persuasions will appreciate and respect his
approach and will be informed and edified by his book.
Gilbert W. Scharffs received his bachelor's degree from the University of
Utah, his master's from New York University, and his Ph.d (in history of
religion, Bible, and modern scripture) from Brigham Young University. He
has taught religion at the latter institution and has served as director
of an LDS Institute of Religion. As a seminary and institute teacher, he has
taught in the Church Education System for twenty-seven years.
|
188.2 | | CLIMB::LEIGH | My soul hungered; and I kneeled down | Mon Nov 21 1988 11:17 | 43 |
| I have seen both "The God Makers" film and "The Temple of the God Makers"
film, but I have not read "The God Makers" book.
My impressions at the time I saw the films were that they gave a very
one-sided and distorted picture of Mormonism. I am 53 years old and have been
a LDS all of my life. I've studied the scriptures in a lot of depth, and I
am well acquainted with Church policies and with "the LDS culture". The
perspective of Mormonism that I saw in the films was not that which I had
known through my own experiences and studies. I felt that the films presented
historical and scriptural information out of context and in the form of
"half-truths". I also felt that persons not familiar with Mormonism would
probably naively accept the films at face value and come away with a distorted
and incorrect impression of the LDS Church.
I feel that the only acceptable response to books and films such as "The
God Makers" is to calmly and objectively explain our "side of the story".
Emotional reactions have no place and do more harm than good, because they
do not really answer the charges being made, and they project a view of
fear and uncertainty.
The replies I give to this note will be taken from Scharffs' book, "The TRUTH
About the God Makers". Immediately after seeing the films, I obtained his
book and read it. Scharffs has a deeper knowledge of the scriptures than I
have, and he has access to historical information that I do not have, and I
feel that his book provides a good balance to those that see or read "The
God Makers". I should mention that I do not have time to discuss all of the
points made in "The God Makers" and in Scharffs book, and I will be selecting
individual points to discuss. Persons reading this note should thus realize
that this discussion is only a partial discussion of "The God Makers".
I hope that others (both pro and con) will participate in this note, so this
discussion can be an objective discussion of "The God Makers" rather than just
a rebuttal of the book and film.
I will be giving quotations from "The God Makers" book. Since I do not have
the book itself, I am giving the quotations as they are given in Scharffs book.
Since I will be using a secondary source for the quotations, there is always
the danger that I (actually Scharffs) may be quoting "The God Makers" out of
context, and I invite and encourage those who have "The God Makers" book to
check on the context of the quotations and comment as they see fit.
Allen
|
188.3 | Utah & the First Ammendment | CLIMB::LEIGH | My soul hungered; and I kneeled down | Mon Nov 21 1988 11:33 | 20 |
| From "The God Makers", page 8, lines 2-9.
"Giving its official approval to the Church's trampling on human rights,
in 1975 the Utah Supreme Court with its Mormon majority handed down a
surprising decision, that, as summarized by the Denver Post -- 'The First
Amendment to the U.S. constitution--which guarantees freedom of speech,
freedom of the press, freedom of assembly and freedom of religion--did not
apply in Utah but was only a limitation on the federal government.'"
Scharffs commented (p. 66) that "The authors, as did the 'Denver Post',
failed to mention that this was a pornography case, State of Utah vs. Phillips.
The following statement from the legal proceedings is significant: 'Defendants
have made no contention that the materials were not pornographic, *but concede
that fact*' (Emphasis added [by Scharffs]. Vol. 540 'Pacific Reporter', 2nd
series, pp. 936-946)."
Scharffs further commented (p. 67) that "Attorney Arthur M. Wood told me, 'It
is difficult to understand how the authors could believe that conviction for
the distribution of 'conceded pornographic material' is to be considered
'trampling on human rights.'"
|
188.4 | Temple Ceremonies | CLIMB::LEIGH | My soul hungered; and I kneeled down | Tue Nov 22 1988 10:59 | 29 |
| "The God Makers", page 13, lines 16-18 and the back cover:
"Mormonism's darkest secrets that those privy to them have sworn upon
penalty of death not to reveal," and "temple rituals that even most
Mormons have never seen...and the elite who have must keep it secret or
be killed."
From Scharffs (p. 73):
The temple ceremonies are sacred to Latter-day Saints. To preserve that
sacred character, those who participate are obligated not to discuss these
ceremonies outside the temple. The importance of this obligation and its
binding quality on the conscience of the participant is emphasized but
there is no mention or expectation in the temple ceremonies that a person
who violates it will suffer any penalty at the hands of men. The Church
policy governing violations of this nature is encompassed in its statement
that religious societies have no right or authority to take any person's
property, "or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict
any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from
their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship" (D&C 134:10).
Rather than have "even most Mormons" never seeing the temple ceremonies, the
Church would have *every* Latter-day Saint attend the temple and receive his
or her endowments. Wards have special educational programs that are designed
to help persons prepare themselves to go to the temple. Latter-day Saints who
have not received their temple endowments have chosen not to prepare for and
attend the temple; it is their choice!
See notes 93.3 and 93.4 for further comments on the sacredness of the temple.
|
188.5 | Leaving the Church | CLIMB::LEIGH | My soul hungered; and I kneeled down | Mon Nov 28 1988 14:40 | 22 |
|
"The God Makers", page 15, lines 31
"Joining had been easy...getting out was something else."
From Scharffs (p. 74, 72):
The undocumented statement is from an anonymous and disgruntled former
LDS member. This statement is misleading. Converts must show a
willingness to pay one-tenth of their income, abstain from alcohol,
tobacco, tea, and coffee; observe the Sabbath; attend meetings; live
chaste lives; keep the ten commandments; and so on. This to many is
not "easy."
All any member has to do to have his name removed from the Church is
write a letter. (p. 74) Any person who asks in writing to have his
name taken from the records of the LDS Church will have that request
granted. the person making the request is invited to a hearing, but
need not attend. This inquiry gives that person a chance to vent his
feelings, but those conducting try to leave the person desiring to
withdraw from the LDS Church with a good feeling and an open invitation
to return at some future time. (p. 72)
|
188.6 | Death threats? | CLIMB::LEIGH | My soul hungered; and I kneeled down | Mon Nov 28 1988 14:41 | 10 |
|
"The God Makers", page 17, line 24
"There have been death threats against some of those who have dared
to show the film [The God Makers]."
From Scharffs (p. 74-75):
By whom? Where? Why not be specific? Why not document this? This
is something the authors should take to court.
|
188.7 | Spirit children | CLIMB::LEIGH | My soul hungered; and I kneeled down | Mon Nov 28 1988 14:42 | 11 |
|
"The God Makers", page 22, line 17
"To be eternally pregnant" in the next world is LDS doctrine.
From Scharffs (p. 74-75):
I have never heard of any LDS Church pronouncement on how spirit
children are created or whether the mortal method of procreation is
God's way of producing spirit offspring. Again no reference is used
nor is the anonymous woman who related her feelings identified.
|
188.8 | Spirit children | CLIMB::LEIGH | My soul hungered; and I kneeled down | Mon Nov 28 1988 14:43 | 20 |
| "The God Makers", page 24, line 22; page 25, line 38
"For some inexplicable reason we aren't 'Gods' by birth."
From Scharffs (p. 79)
Although the book calls it inexplicable, experiences in life show that
accomplishments, whether becoming a physician, athlete, musician, or
any worthwhile attainment, are preceded by learning and experience.
The book makes light of the LDS idea that God can produce spirit children
and have them housed in physical mortal bodies. The idea that man has
a spirit is commonly accepted by most of Christianity and other religions.
Christians generally believe this spirit lives after death. If a spirit
continues after death, as Christians teach, why couldn't man's spirit
have existed as a separate entity before mortal birth?
Elsewhere the authors emphasize the omnipotence and omniscience of God
and yet here they deny God's ability to produce spirit children. Paul
taught, "We are the offspring of God" (Acts 17:29).
|
188.9 | | CASV05::PRESTON | Better AI than none at all | Mon Dec 05 1988 14:55 | 40 |
188.10 | | MIZZOU::SHERMAN | Love is a decision ... | Mon Dec 05 1988 16:10 | 11 |
|
My first-hand experience is that there is nothing sinister about Mormon
temples and that just the opposite is true. For me to interpret that someone
representing the Church would physically threaten me implicitly or explicitly
with the consent of the Church is absurd. Such would be unfounded and would
be in sharp contrast with my experiences with the Church and within Mormon
temples. In fact, Church members making physical threats to anyone could find
themselves subject to exclusion from Church membership.
Steve
|
188.11 | Sacred covenants | RIPPLE::KOTTERRI | Rich Kotter | Mon Dec 05 1988 18:36 | 22 |
| Since the beginnings of the church, the leaders of the LDS church have
taught that the jurisdiction that the church has over any member is
limited to the right to exclude him or her from membership. The church
claims no right or privilege to inflict any other punishment or harm
upon offenders, except as may be exercised by the just provisions of
civil law.
Those who are foolish enough to violate sacred covenants that they have
made in the temple only mock God when they do so. Though they may lose
their membership in the church, punishment beyond this will be between
them and God. As for me, I would not want to be in their shoes when
they stand before God to be judged. Even so, God allows them that
choice.
Consider how sacred the ark of the covenant was to the children of
Israel. We regard the temple and its sacred ordinances with the same
reverence and respect. Just as God made sacred covenants with the House
of Israel, so he makes sacred covenants with all those who enter
worthily into His Holy Temple.
Rich
|
188.12 | Guilt by implication | CACHE::LEIGH | The song of the righteous is a prayer | Wed Dec 07 1988 11:09 | 67 |
188.13 | Pornography not covered | USADEC::HANSEN | Be nice. | Wed Dec 07 1988 14:46 | 9 |
| RE: .3, .9, others
Everyone knows, correct, that the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that
pornography and the distribution thereof is *NOT* covered by the
first ammendment to the constitution.
Just making sure.
Dave
|
188.14 | Let's not spend too much time on this one | CASV01::PRESTON | Better AI than none at all | Thu Dec 08 1988 16:03 | 35 |
188.15 | Propaganda | CLIMB::LEIGH | The song of the righteous is a prayer | Fri Dec 09 1988 11:31 | 101 |
| >Allen, I'd rather not get caught up in a discussion of "inflammatory" words
>or "unsubstantiated charges" over this. Only books written by historians
>painstakingly document *every* statement, and I even wonder about that.
Well Ed, if we don't discuss the inflammatory words and unsubstantiated
charges made by Decker & Hunt, we may not have much to discuss. I think we
have to understand that "The God Makers" is not an objective study of
Mormonism. I believe it was written for one purpose: to convince people
that Mormonism is a cult and is evil. Decker & Hunt use inflammatory words
to arouse the emotions of the readers, and they make many unsubstantiated
charges to imply things that they don't clearly explain (and which we LDS
think are not true). Examples of this are in the replies I've posted to
this note:
188.3 Unsubstantiated charge that LDS church trampling on human
rights. Use of inflammatory words that convey the impression
that the LDS church really must be a cult and evil. If I read,
for example, that organization "A" has deprived persons of their
human rights and that organization "B" has trampled on their human
rights, I likely will form a more negative attitude toward
organization "B", due to the words used by the writer.
Unsubstantiated charge that Utah Supreme Court has a Mormon
majority (more on this below) and the implication that those
Justices acted unethically in letting their religious views
influence their professional conduct.
188.4 Unsubstantiated charge that persons revealing Temple ceremonies
will be killed.
188.5 Unsubstantiated charge that leaving the LDS church is difficult,
implying that members are prisoners of some form.
188.6 Unsubstantiated charge that death threats were made against those
who showed "The God Makers" film, implying that the threats were
made by the LDS church or at least with approval or condonance of
the church.
188.7 Undocumented claim that it is LDS doctrine that LDS women will be
eternally pregnant, implying that no one would want that as their
eternal reward. The phrase "eternally pregnant" is inflammatory
and I think calls upon the negative feelings that many women have
concerning morning sickness to create the idea that LDS women
will suffer those feelings for the eternities.
>For you to complain that they should have to prove that the Utah Supreme
>Court has a Mormon majority is being a little too picky, since, given the
>large percentage of Mormons in Utah, their upward mobility, their bent
>for public service, I would be surprised if they *didn't* have a majority
>on the bench, as well as in many other areas.
The important thing about this "Mormon majority" thing is not whether the
court really does have a majority of LDS, but that Decker & Hunt made the
unsubstantiated statement to *imply* that those Justices had acted unethically
in letting their religion influence their professional actions, and hence the
Mormon church was in fact trampling on the human rights of persons.
However, the charge of a "Mormon majority" does merit further thought. Utah
is about half LDS. Most of the smaller towns are mostly LDS, but Salt Lake
is about half and Ogden is less than half. The metropolitan Salt Lake/Ogden
area is by far the huge majority of the population, and so I would expect that
the religious ratio of the state would be that of the metropolitan area. Now,
only about half of the LDS are active in the church; this is because once a
person is baptized LDS, they stay on the records of the church regardless of
their activity or attitudes unless they are excommunicated. This means that
many of the LDS are not really LDS in the sense that their religion means
much to them or in the sense that their behavior reflects the influence of
their religion. Thus, Ed, only about 1/4 of the state is active LDS, and if
the religious activity of the Justices were to follow this profile, only about
1/4 of them would be in a position to let their religion influence their
professional conduct on the bench. As I mentioned above, I think the important
thing is not whether the court actually has a [active] Mormon majority, but
the use of that phrase by Decker & Hunt to imply that the church was using
the court to trample on the human rights of Utah citizens.
>I would much prefer to keep this discussion on things that are more
>easily dealt with, though I'm beginning to suspect that we may be getting
>into a real can of worms. We'll see.
Many Christian churches are using "The God Makers" as the basis of their
"cult" classes, and I'm glad for the opportunity through this note to get
some of the fallacies of the book/film out into the open so people can see
that the book is not an objective look at Mormonism but is propaganda.
>Just out of curiousity, Allen, do you have a copy of "The God Makers"?
As I mentioned in .2, I haven't read the book (implying I don't have it)
but have seen both films. By not having the book itself, I'm having to rely
on quotations from Scharffs, and I'm taking a risk that Scharffs may have
quoted from the book out of context. Since I have seen the movie, and the
movie seems to have followed the book quite closely, I'm able to check on
the context of the quotations from the book. As we discuss in this note, I'm
hoping that persons who do have the book will check on the context of the
quotations I give from Scharffs and speak up if they feel I have given
quotations out of context.
Allen
|
188.16 | Ahem... | ONFIRE::PERM | Kevin R. Ossler | Fri Dec 09 1988 13:53 | 10 |
| Just thought I'd interject....
According to a recent "This People" magazine, the population
of Utah is 70.22% Mormon.
I have no way of knowing what percentage of the above figure
could not care less what the Church says about local political
issues. Anyone care to guess?
/kevin
|
188.17 | fine tuned | CLIMB::LEIGH | The song of the righteous is a prayer | Fri Dec 09 1988 14:26 | 5 |
| Hmmm.... Interesting. Apparently the smaller towns account for more of
the population than I had assumed. That would put my model of the Justices
up from 25% to 35%. Thanks, Kevin.
Allen
|
188.21 | The God Makers - A waste of good paper | SLSTRN::RONDINA | | Mon Dec 12 1988 11:20 | 13 |
| The National Conference of Christians and Jews has said this
statement about The God Makers:
"It makes extensive use of half truth, faulty generalizations,
erroneous interpretations, and sensationalism. It is not reflective
of the genuine spirit of the Mormon faith."
I, myself, read the first 50 pages of the book and gave up because
the distortions and outright lies/errors were so blatant that I
considered the book a total waste of time.
Paul
|
188.22 | "Maze of Mormonism" moved | CLIMB::LEIGH | The song of the righteous is a prayer | Mon Dec 12 1988 17:59 | 6 |
| The replies concerning Dr. Walter Martin and "The Maze of Mormonism" have been
moved to note 192.
Allen
-- moderator
|
188.23 | | CASV01::PRESTON | Better AI than none at all | Tue Dec 13 1988 15:31 | 80 |
188.24 | | MIZZOU::SHERMAN | Love is a decision ... | Tue Dec 13 1988 23:12 | 16 |
| Seems to me that to prove that the Utah court was trampling
first ammendment rights you would have to show a history of such
violations. One case (and a pornography case at that) is pretty
weak evidence. How many other rulings were made in Utah courts
in which first ammendment rights were protected? Or, how many other
rulings have trampled first ammendment rights? Even if the court was
guilty of trampling first ammendment rights, one judgment seems a pretty
small sample and is even laughable when considering that other
(non-Mormon) states have made the same or similar rulings. Consider
also that it usually takes several similar rulings for a court to set
precedences. This is partly why lawyers have to do so much research
before a case. Lawyers understand this, but evidently some journalists
do not or are so eager for a controversial story that may not point
this out to the public.
Steve
|
188.25 | more... | CASV05::PRESTON | Better AI than none at all | Wed Dec 14 1988 15:35 | 50 |
188.26 | More on the Utah court case | CLIMB::LEIGH | then ye must ask me if it be right | Tue Dec 20 1988 11:11 | 63 |
188.27 | A "Zion Curtain"? | CLIMB::LEIGH | and let us reason together | Thu Jan 05 1989 11:21 | 140 |
| Ed, in past replies, we've discussed several topics. Now that I have a copy
of the book, I would like to go back and discuss those topics in more detail
prior to going on to new ones.
Re .5, .25; leaving the Church
"The God Makers" begins with the following.
Intent upon researching and producing an unusual feature story, 'Denver
Post' staff writer John Farrell, accompanied by 'Post photographer Jim
Richardson, spent 13 weeks during the summer and fall of 1982 traveling
throughout "The Church State"(1) of Utah. Their assignment? To penetrate
what has been called "The Zion Curtain"(2) erected by the Mormon Church
to protect its vast wealth and influence. The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints so effectively controls one of the 50 American states,
where it is "the largest private property owner,"(3) that "the line between
worship and government has become so blurred that some civil rights have
evaporated."(4) In this unusual state, "Jews are called Gentiles" and
a "majority of non-Mormons" consider themselves to be victims of
discrimination(5).
As anyone knows who has lived very long in Utah, far from encouraging
freedom (as one might expect), the all-pervasive presence of the Mormon
Church hangs like a heavy cloud of oppression that can't be escaped
anywhere. One gradually acquires the uneasy feeling that "Big Brother"
is always listening and watching. Farrell and Richardson discovered that
in some ways conditions behind the Zion Curtain were uncomfortably similar
to those behind the Iron Curtain. This was particularly true concerning
two of the rights that Americans have traditionally held most dear: freedom
of speech and freedom of the press. In Utah these are not exercised without
"widespread constraint" imposed upon everyone by the Mormon hierarchy's
long arm that reaches everywhere. (p. 7; footnotes 1, 4, 5 reference the
'Denver Post' article of November 21-28, 1982; footnote 3 references the
'Los Angeles Times' for June 26, 1983, and footnote 2 is a remark about the
use of the word 'Gentile' in Utah)
Ed, this is the context established on p. 7 (1st page of the book). This
context is further strengthened with the following from p. 8.
Farrell and Richardson discovered that in this bastion of capitalism and
conservatism behind the Zion Curtain it was extremely difficult to find
individuals who were willing to speak openly and freely in response to
questions about the almost omnipotent religious power that tolerates no
interference in its control of the Church State. They soon learned that
"the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does not take kindly to
dissent." For a resident of Utah to openly question the irresistible and
self-serving influence exerted everywhere in Utah by the Mormon Church--or
its activities, morals, or doctrines--could call down the wrath of a
totalitarian power upon ones head. The results are sometimes frighteningly
similar to those suffered by dissidents within the Soviet Union or some
other Communist country.
Then on page 9
And in Utah, the Church State, even non-Mormons feel the pressure to
conform to a power that insists upon overriding both conscience and God.
In Chapter 2, the story of "Jim and Judy" is given as "typical converts
to the Mormon Church. Their conversion to Mormonism is outlined, and then
their dissatisfaction with the Church is explained.
It was only after several years that Jim and Judy began studying the
Bible and asking God's guidance and only then realized what they were
'really' involved in. The experience almost cost them their marriage.
The true facts about Mormonism were entirely different from what they
had been led to believe. Joining had been easy, reinforced as it had
been with so much love. Getting out was something else. What they had
thought was genuine love expressed over and over by Mormons who had
become their closest friends suddenly turned to a severing of relationships
and false accusations.
Now for my comments. In .5, I quoted Scharffs in which he said that leaving
the Mormon Church was relatively easy--a matter of requesting in writing that
ones name be removed and then waiting for the hearing to occur. Scharffs was
focusing on the procedure involved but he ignored the social factors involved.
Decker & Hunt brought out the social factors in their statement about a severing
of relationships. It is true that if people leave a church they will
experience difficult social adjustments that in many cases will involve the
severing of relationships with both family and friends. This can be difficult
for the people involved, and this social factor is not limited to persons
leaving the LDS church but applies to people leaving any church. The
*immediate* context for the statement by Decker & Hunt that leaving the LDS
church was "something else" is this social pressure against leaving. However,
there is a second context established by Decker & Hunt--that of the Zion
Curtain, as I established in the lengthy quotes given above. I think their
use of the phrase "Zion Curtain", which was originally coined by Farrell, is
part of the inflammatory language in the book. That phrase draws upon the
parallel with the stereotype of the "Iron Curtain" and suggests that Latter-day
Saints are prisoners of the Mormon Church much as citizens of Eastern Europe
are prisoners of their governments. This suggestion is reinforced in the
quotes I gave above.
My experience with non-LDS in Utah has been very different than that reported
by Farrell and used by Decker & Hunt. I grew up in Cedar City, Utah and had
about as many non-member friends as member friends, and I never heard either
my friends or their parents express feelings that "a heavy cloud of oppression
that can't be escaped anywhere" hung over them. I never heard any comments of
them feeling "that 'Big Brother' is always listening and watching."
After high school graduation, I attended Utah State University in Logan for six
years and had many non-LDS friends. I never heard any of my friends express
the feelings reported by Farrell. While at USU, I was one of the more active
letter-writers to the school newspaper and debated church-related topics. The
main issues in the debates were the no-smoking-in-buildings rule and the belief
of some non-LDS that we LDS lived in our own world and did not understand what
the "real" world was all about. I don't recall any comments as reported by
Farrell & propagated by Decker & Hunt. While at USU, I attended the meetings
of the campus Christian fellowships with my non-member friends, and again I
never heard the comments claimed by Farrell. My wife and I thought it
interesting that when we moved to Maryland, all of the public buildings banned
smoking. We realized that no-smoking in buildings was not a Mormon issue, as
the letter-writers to the school paper had claimed, but was a more general
condition.
I worked two summers at the University of Utah for my brother-in law. He was
a baptized Mormon, but he had left the Church and claimed to be an atheist.
I discussed the Mormon religion with him and his colleagues (who were all
non-LDS); again no comments like those claimed by Farrell. Those people
couldn't accept the Christian concept of a Messiah and the Atonement. In
addition, they felt that Mormons tended to limit their social involvement to
other Mormons, but I heard no comments about oppression or big brother. They
enjoyed living in Utah.
My wife's parents rented their basement apartment for many years, and many of
the tenets were non-LDS, people who enjoyed associations with LDS and enjoyed
living in Utah; my wife still corresponds with one family.
I read the comments about the Zion Curtain and I think of my own experiences
with non-LDS in Utah, and I wonder if the people interviewed by Farrell were
typical representatives of the non-LDS in Utah. There is in Utah a group of
non-LDS who are bitter towards the Mormon church and who probably have the
feelings expressed by Farrell, and I wonder if he might have limited his
contacts to those persons. I am critical of Decker & Hunt propagating the
picture of Utah as a Zion Curtain since my experiences with many non-LDS were
the opposite. This is one of my serious criticisms of "The God Makers", that
of presenting conditions as the norm without sufficient evidence to support
that position. This is one reason why I feel the book is propaganda, designed
to turn people away from the LDS church.
Allen
|
188.28 | Can you spell P R O P O G A N D A? | NORGE::CHAD | | Thu Jan 05 1989 11:43 | 22 |
|
I must agree with my dad. I was in Utah going to school. Except for the fact
that the area is economically depressed, and being able to walk to church
(instead of driving), (and be able to go to a store and strike up a
conversation with somebody there and find out he was in your same mission
5 years ago... :-), I found Utah to be like anywhere else. The church
puts no undo political, social, or other types of pressure on the citizens.
The press is free there to publish what they want. The non-LDS live
how they want. Those who desire the vices of the world can easily find
them, etc. Just like anywhere else.
The language used in the passages from the " Godmakers " as quoted
in the previous reply brings to mind a bit the propoganda from the
Third Reich and Joseph Goebbels. I am not going to go into detail as
it has been a long while since I was reading a lot about that time
period and I don't have any desire to do it again now. That is just
what appeared in my head as I read it. It also brings to mind the language
of the Soviet propoganda I have heard about internally in Russia about the
Western world.
Chad
|
188.29 | Life in Utah | RIPPLE::KOTTERRI | Rich Kotter | Fri Jan 06 1989 12:14 | 66 |
| Re: Note 188.27 by CLIMB::LEIGH
> -< A "Zion Curtain"? >-
I found your note very interesting about the picture that "The God
Makers" portrays of life in Utah.
I grew up most of my life in Utah, and, like others, find the
descriptions from the book to be inconsistent with my experience. I do
not doubt that there are some who feel alienated in Utah, but I would
consider it to be no more so, and probably less than, normally occurs
when a person of one cultural experience happens to live in a community
that is predominantly of another cultural experience. For example, if a
Irish Catholic person were to live in a predominantly Jewish community.
I also do not doubt that there are some who feel that the Mormon church
controls the politics of Utah. However, in my experience, the LDS
church goes to great pains to distance itself from political issues,
and becomes involved only when it considers an issue to be a moral
issue, such as abortion and gambling.
The LDS church does not endorse candidates or ballot issues (with the
above exceptions), will not allow its buildings or pulpits to be used
for campaign or voting purposes, and does not tell people how to vote,
except to encourage them to prayerfully consider the alternatives and
to carry out their responsibility to vote.
I suppose that it seems to some that the LDS church controls politics
in Utah, but I assert that this is not the case, but may seem so, only
because the majority of Utah citizens is Mormon, and when the majority
votes the results sometimes reflect Mormon values. This is one of the
results of living in the sort of political system that we do, where the
voice of the majority determines the direction of government.
Interestingly enough, a striking example against the idea that the
Mormon church controls politics in Utah was the repeal of Prohibition.
Though opposed by the church (as a moral issue), the state of Utah went
against the church position and became the deciding state in the repeal
of prohibition.
Re: Non-LDS hating it in Utah
I live in Montana, about 500 miles from Utah. One of my friends went to
work for DEC in Utah. He is not LDS, and was advised by some people
that he would hate it there, because of the Mormon domination. His
experience has been the opposite, and he considers it to be a great
place to live, and to raise a family. He has found the people to be
friendly and has been glad he made the move.
I work with many of the people out of the DEC Salt Lake office, both
LDS and non-LDS. On several occasions the subject of the church has
come up in conversations with non-LDS, and I have posed the question of
how they feel about living in Utah, and whether they feel that being
non-LDS in Utah puts them at a disadvantage. Their response has been
consistent: They like it in Utah, they are aware of the Mormon majority
but are not bothered by it, and they do not consider themselves to be
at a disadvantage because they are not LDS.
This is not to say that there are not some who may carry opposite
feelings, but I share this to say what my experience has been. In
short, the description of Utah from "The God Makers" would be amusing,
as ridiculous as it seems, if it did not smack more of slander,
and is certainly not a fair appraisal of the general state of things
in Utah, in my humble opinion.
Rich
|
188.30 | What Rich said, too. | HDSRUS::HANSEN | Be nice. | Fri Jan 06 1989 13:13 | 44 |
|
From .27:
>As anyone knows who has lived very long in Utah, far from encouraging
>freedom (as one might expect), the all-pervasive presence of the Mormon
>Church hangs like a heavy cloud of oppression that can't be escaped
>anywhere. One gradually acquires the uneasy feeling that "Big Brother"
>is always listening and watching. Farrell and Richardson discovered that
>in some ways conditions behind the Zion Curtain were uncomfortably similar
>to those behind the Iron Curtain. This was particularly true concerning
>two of the rights that Americans have traditionally held most dear: freedom
>of speech and freedom of the press. In Utah these are not exercised without
>"widespread constraint" imposed upon everyone by the Mormon hierarchy's
>long arm that reaches everywhere.
A question for Ed and/or others who believe the book: Do statements like the
above and others quoted by Allen in .27 affect at all the credibility (even
if only from a *journalistic*, and not a scholastic, viewpoint) of the authors
in your eyes?
I lived in Utah for 25 years. Does that constitute "very long"? My experience
was very like Allen's in that even from my non-member friends, many of whom
were quite vocal in their opposition (and sometimes disdain) of the church and
its teachings, I never heard complaints like those quoted from the book.
In my opinion, the state in which I now reside has much more of a "Big
Brother" environment than Utah had. I had several non-member teachers in
college, both at Dixie Jr. College in St. George and at the U. of U. in
Salt Lake who commented that although they could make more money elsewhere
(out of Utah), they were content to live and work in Utah because of the
environment in which to raise their families.
As for "widespread constraint" imposed upon everyone by the Mormon hierarchy's
long arm that reaches everywhere, I haven't a copy of the book, but let me
guess: the authors attempt to uphold that statement by dragging out the
pornography case discussed earlier in this note, right? Am I close?
I congratulate Paul Rondina for sticking with the book as long as he did. I
would have tossed it out after 2 pages--any author, in my opinion, who is
willing so early in their work to discard so easily their credibility shows
a great disrespect for their audience and is not worth reading. They would
have a great future at the National Enquirer or other papers of that ilk.
Dave
|
188.31 | Right on, Dave! | CLIMB::LEIGH | and let us pray together | Fri Jan 06 1989 14:44 | 26 |
| > As for "widespread constraint" imposed upon everyone by the Mormon hierarchy's
> long arm that reaches everywhere, I haven't a copy of the book, but let me
> guess: the authors attempt to uphold that statement by dragging out the
> pornography case discussed earlier in this note, right? Am I close?
Farrell and Richardson discovered that in some ways conditions behind
the Zion Curtain were uncomfortably similar to those behind the Iron
Curtain. This was particularly true concerning two of the rights that
Americans have traditionally held most dear: freedom of speech and freedom
of the press. In Utah these are not exercised without "widespread
constraint" imposed upon everyone by the Mormon hierarchy's long arm that
reaches everywhere.
These rights are further inhibited by the disturbing fact that "the state's
largest evening newspaper and...leading TV station are owned by the church,"
(6) which has been described as "America's biggest, richest and strongest
home-grown faith."(7) Giving its official approval to the Church's
trampling on human rights, in 1975 the Utah Supreme Court with its Mormon
majority handed down a surprising decision, that, as summarized by the
'Denver Post'--
and so on
Footnote 6 is to the Denver Post article, and footnote 7 is to the LA Times
article.
|
188.32 | ops..I messed up on that one | CACHE::LEIGH | Blessed are the peacemakers; | Thu Feb 02 1989 20:46 | 13 |
| Re .6, .15, .25 death threats
In .15 I said that I felt that the mention of death threats by Decker implied
that the threats were either made by LDS officials or by their approval or
condonance. Now that I have my copy of "The God Makers", I've checked the
context of Decker's statement, and it is clear that he was referring to
individual LDS and not to the church as an organization or to its leaders.
I agree with Ed that I wouldn't expect Decker to put specific names of
persons making the threats into his book; whether Decker might decide to
take legal action against such persons is another matter and not part of this
discussion.
Allen
|
188.33 | "eternally pregnant" | CLIMB::LEIGH | Blessed are the peacemakers; | Fri Feb 03 1989 22:12 | 80 |
| Re .7, .15 "eternally pregnant"
In .7 I referred to Decker & Hunt's use of the phrase "eternally pregnant"
and gave Scharffs reply. In .15 I referred to .7 as an example of what I
felt was Decker & Hunt making undocumented claims about LDS doctrine and the
use of inflammatory words to arouse negative feelings about the LDS
church in his readers. After studying the context of Decker & Hunt's
statements about "eternally pregnant", I still feel the way I did when I
wrote .15.
This is what Decker & Hunt said.
To the average person who only knows the mask that Mormonism wears and
not the real face behind it (and this includes many Mormons), it is
staggering to hear a beautiful and seemingly intelligent young woman
express the incredible hopes she had as a Mormon wife. After Jolene
comes on the screen in "The God Makers" and begins to tell her astonishing
story, the audible gasps all through the audience voice the sudden shock
felt by most viewers of this hard-hitting expose. Then the gasps turn
into embarrassed laughter. How could any intelligent person really think
like that? Is it a joke? Yet Jolene is obviously sincere and deeply
emotional as she says:
Ever since I was a little girl, I was taught that my primary purpose
was to become a goddess in heaven so that I could multiply an earth.
I wanted that, I wanted to become a goddess with my husband...to be
eternally pregnant and look down on an earth and say, "That's mine,
and all those babies down there, I had!"
If that sounds bizarre, then Janet's testimony assures us that Jolene was
not the only Mormon woman who took seriously the promise of becoming an
eternally pregnant goddess. [Decker & Hunt then give the case history of
Janet] ("The God Makers, p. 22)
There are two points that we need to address. First, whether the LDS church
teaches that LDS women will be eternally pregnant. As Scharffs pointed out
(in .5), the LDS church has never made any pronouncement about "how spirit
children are created or whether the mortal method of procreation is God's way
of producing spirit offspring." It seems pretty obvious to me that Decker
& Hunt did make an undocumented (and incorrect) claim about LDS doctrine. I
expect that someone will say that it wasn't Decker & Hunt but was Jolene that
accused the LDS church of teaching that women will be eternally pregnant. I
think that is a flimsy argument, because we don't know if Jolene actually
exists as a person. She might be a real person, or she might be a composite,
or she might be an imaginary person to put over a point. Regardless of who
she is, Decker & Hunt used her story to put over the point they wanted to make,
and they are responsible for it being in their book.
Second, the quotation given above from p. 22 of "The God Makers" seems pretty
inflammatory to me. I think the style of writing used by Decker & Hunt in
that passage is intentionally designed to arouse negative feelings in the
readers towards the LDS church. Notice their use of the following phrases
to affect the emotions of their readers:
mask that Mormonism wears and not the real face behind it
staggering to hear
incredible hopes she had as a Mormon wife
her astonishing story
the audible gasps all through the audience voice the sudden shock felt by
most viewers of this hard-hitting expose.
Then the gasps turn into embarrassed laughter
How could any intelligent person really think like that?
Is it a joke?
Yet Jolene is obviously sincere
If that sounds bizarre, then ...
That whole passage is filled with ridicule and contempt for the LDS church!
Allen
|
188.34 | eternally something, at least | CASPRO::PRESTON | Better AI than none at all | Wed Feb 08 1989 16:43 | 30 |
| Allen,
I haven't had the time lately to really get into this topic, partly
because I don't see a lot of use in defending the style in which a book
is written, when you - and others, apparently - seem determined to label
it "inflammatory". The parts of the book that I have read, and those
that you have quoted, do not, to me, seem nearly as "full of ridicule
and contempt" as they obviously do to you. However, I will say that,
had I written the book, it would have been in a different style, more
subdued perhaps. Still, I see their style as similar to the Boston
Herald's as it is often contrasted to the Globe's, irritating to some
while excellent and correct writing is often found in it just the same.
I think you're especially overdoing it on the "eternally pregnant"
bit. Really now! I've read that part of the book too, and I don't
see how, as you concluded earlier, that it was calculated to impart a
sense of dread in women by causing them to contemplate eons of morning
sickness! Is it not true that Mormonism believes that the ultimate goal
for anyone is to become a god, like "heavenly father", having one's own
planet and populating it with spirit children? And is it also not true
that this is accomplished between an eternally married husband and wife,
(god and goddess, if you will) and that, somehow, procreation is carried
on in eternity? That's how we all supposedly got here in the first place,
isn't it? If that's so, then it certainly seems a worthy goal for a
Mormon girl or woman to want to achieve this.
Please comment.
Ed
|
188.35 | A WOMANS OPINION | KIKETT::HAGUE_LO | AIM TO PLEASE | Thu Feb 09 1989 15:36 | 25 |
| I would like to add a word or two here. I am a woman and a mother (5
children). The idea of being "Eternally Pregnant" is riduculous.
I believe that we are here on earth to provide maternal love and
nurturing to ALL children, not just our biological children. As
a woman, I think that we can be fulfilled in this role not by how
many children we can bring into this life, but by how many children
we can direct along the right path.
The idea of being a human breeding machine is not my idea of what
motherhood is meant to be. We are all "Children of God" and "being
pregnant" is not the only part of mothering. As far as being
"Goddesses and having Many Spirit children", that is something
only Father in Heaven knows and the truthfulness will be known to
all in the hereafter.
Writing a book about something you obviously know absolutely nothing
about is like speculating about the weather. I guess it makes them
money. The God Makers is purely speculation and should be read for
entertainment (fantasy) only. Personnally, my time can be better
spent.
Anyway, this is just my opinion.
Louise
|
188.36 | Let's get this straight | CASPRO::PRESTON | Better AI than none at all | Thu Feb 09 1989 16:23 | 19 |
| Louise,
First of all, the context of this "eternally pregnant" topic is after
death, in eternity, hence the "eternally" part of the term. Your comments
on earthly motherhood are well taken, but not relevant to the discussion.
Allen has basically made the statement that Decker and Hunt made this
whole idea up to frighten women with fear of never-ending morning
sickness (which I can find no basis for) and hold the LDS church up to
ridicule. I replied that, as I understand it, the highest hope of most
LDS women is to continue in the role of mother into eternity as a goddess.
I also asked to be corrected if that understanding is wrong.
Can I assume, then, that you are saying that LDS women have no such
desire?
Ed
|
188.37 | thanks, Louise! | MIZZOU::SHERMAN | quality first cause quality lasts | Fri Feb 10 1989 14:21 | 19 |
| Louise,
Thanks for your comments. From what I'm reading here, I sense the
makers of 'God Makers' are holding up for ridicule the idea of eternal
motherhood. In particular, it seems the focus is on, as you point
out, only one or a few aspects of motherhood. I appreciate your
perspective and contribution to this discussion as it draws attention
to how this earthly existance has a parallel in eternity in that
having children is only one aspect of parenthood. Also, I sense
from the descriptions here that 'God Makers' portrays Mormon women
as having been fooled into accepting some sense of eternal
inferiority to men. I certainly don't think of a mother as
inferior and suspect that to even hint that I was sympathetic
with such a concept would draw intense and withering fury from my
wife. She would be justified because the Church teaches that parents
are equal partners, that men and women have responsibilities that are
different in function but equal in importance.
Steve
|
188.38 | a non-goal | CLIMB::LEIGH | Blessed are the peacemakers; | Fri Feb 10 1989 16:35 | 33 |
| Re .34
Hi Ed,
> Is it not true that Mormonism believes that the ultimate goal
> for anyone is to become a god, like "heavenly father", having one's own
> planet and populating it with spirit children? And is it also not true
> that this is accomplished between an eternally married husband and wife,
> (god and goddess, if you will) and that, somehow, procreation is carried
> on in eternity? That's how we all supposedly got here in the first place,
> isn't it? If that's so, then it certainly seems a worthy goal for a
> Mormon girl or woman to want to achieve this.
Yes, the ultimate goal of a Mormon is to reach the state of exaltation in which
we become like God and receive all that He has. Yes, it is true that that
condition will only be given to eternally married husbands and wives. Both of
these points are taught in our LDS scriptures. We assume that procreation in
some form is carried on in the eternities, because the scriptures teach that
we are literal offspring of God, but the scriptures say nothing about how
spiritual procreation would occur or even that it does occur. Thus, the
concept of being "eternally pregnant" is not part of Mormon doctrine. In fact
the phrase "eternally pregnant" is not a Mormon phrase. By that I mean that
it is not in common use within the church. The first time I ever heard the
term was when I saw the film. I can understand how individual Mormons might
think of spiritual procreation as being one of "eternally pregnant", but that
is their own thinking. Exaltation is "a worthy goal for a Mormon girl or woman
to want to achieve", but being "eternally pregnant" is not a goal at all.
I've given my reasons why I think Decker & Hunt presented the concept of being
"eternally pregnant" as Mormon doctrine. Why do you, Ed, think they did that?
Allen
|
188.39 | What about resurrection? | BSS::RONEY | | Fri Feb 10 1989 17:32 | 27 |
|
There is a point I see missing out of this particular note.
I wish to comment on the discusion of the "eternally pregnant"
concept. It seems to me that a most important point has not been
introduced - resurrection. From what I perceive, there will be no
morning sickness, much less any pain. Either that or the Scriptures
are wrong in regards to a resurrected body. I do not want to drag
this out into other topics that could arise about resurrection,
but that I don't think there is any point in worrying about it.
Maybe the authors don't believe in the resurrection of a perfected body?
.-1 Also, I would like to point out that "procreation" is
a mortal or human function. Resurrected spiritual personages would
participate in "creation."
I have not seen the "God Makers" movie, or read the book.
Nor do I intend to do so. I have, however, had the pleasure of
seeing and hearing Dr. Walter Martin. I ,therefore, feel that one
Korihor in this lifetime is enough! My *opinion* of the afore
mentioned movie and book is in the same vein and I do not wish to
waste my time with them. Personally, I believe that the Bible
teaches us that we are the children of God and that we will become
Gods. The only thing LDS doctrine does is expand and enlighten us on
that subject.
|
188.40 | Might still be the goal! | DNEAST::STTHOMAS_KEV | | Fri Feb 10 1989 17:59 | 34 |
| Hi!
I've got to get into this one! Even though the concept of
"Eternally Pregnant doesn't appear to be taught scriptually
it has played a part in the teachings of the church in the
past. Orson Pratt stated in "The Seer" in his discourse on
the pre-existance the following; I start off at page 38 sec.31
"If we admit that one personage was the father of this great family,
and that they were all born of the same mother, the period of time
intervening between the birth of the oldest and youngest spirit
must of been immense. If we suppose, as an average, that only 1
year intervened between each birth, then it must of required,
over one hundred thousand million years for the same mother to have
given birth to this same family"....he goes on to give a dissertation
on the length of term of pregnancy in the celestial realm, states
that the term probably is similar to here on earth,etc. One way,
he states that the Father of these spirits could have shortened this time
frame, is through the taking of many wives through the everlasting
covenant of marriage..... You see, it's difficult for us to deal
today with many of the early teachings of the church when opponents
of the church use our very words and concepts that we once taught.
One of the reasons of plural marriage may have been to populate
worlds in a shorter time span. But then, what's time when we are
talking eternity... I just wanted to demonstrate that even though
today we try to explain away these "misconceptions", it is implied
by what we have taught. Orson Pratt was charged with the respon-
sibily of carrying the word to the world in his day by the Prophet.
Even though today, we don't ever read any of his works, the enemies
of the church sure do and never miss a beat when it comes to
criticism. So, why did Decker and Hunt present that concept of
being "Eternally Pregnant"? simple, it was implied in our early
teachings!
Kevin
|
188.41 | See note 211 for discussion of church doctrine | CLIMB::LEIGH | Blessed are the meek; | Mon Feb 13 1989 19:57 | 12 |
| This note was beginning to fragment into a new discussion concerning
whether statements from individual church leaders are church doctrine or
not, so I created note 211 for that discussion and moved three replies to it.
If you would like to discuss that question for its own sake, please use note
211. If you would like to discuss "The God Makers" from the context of that
question, please continue to use this note.
Allen
-- moderator
|
188.42 | | CLIMB::LEIGH | Blessed are the meek; | Tue Feb 14 1989 12:40 | 13 |
| Hi Kevin,
I had read part of Orson Pratt's "The Seer" while a missionary 32 years
ago, but I had either forgotten about it or didn't read his discussion of
"eternal pregnancy". I have to agree with you that this does put a different
perspective on the use of the phrase "eternally pregnant" by Decker & Hunt.
I feel that in creating a model of "eternal pregnancy", Orson Pratt was
giving his own ideas and not giving the position of the Church, and I find
fault with Decker & Hunt for mapping Orson's speculations into Church
doctrine, but that is a topic for note 211.
Allen
|
188.43 | terminology vs substance | CASPRO::PRESTON | Better AI than none at all | Wed Feb 15 1989 15:31 | 45 |
188.44 | ETERNALLY ... | KIKETT::HAGUE_LO | AIM TO PLEASE | Wed Feb 15 1989 20:04 | 22 |
| In my opinion, we should be very careful about labeling. The term
"eternally procreating" seems much more in tune with the teachings
of the church than does "eternally pregnany". As a woman, I would
be much more receptive to the Church's teaching about procreation
than if they made it sound like I would be pregnant for eternity.
Maybe to you it is the same thing, but to me it is not the same
at all. Women have a tendancy to connotate being pregnant as being
large, sickly (sometimes), uncomfortable, etc. However, I seriously doubt
that as a Goddess in Heaven we would have to withstand the discomforts
of earthly pregnancy. Being a Mother in Heaven certainly sounds
more desireable than being a Baby Factory for all eternity which is
exactly the way this concept as presented by Decker and Hunt comes
across. No wonder this type of terminology (which D & H present
as truth) is not met with enthusiasm.
Perhaps Jolene actually meant "eternally procreating" and it was
misinterpreted as "eternally pregnant". This would be a terrible
disservice to women investigating the LDS faith. But perhaps this
is exactly what they (D & H) intended to do.
Louise
|
188.45 | maybe a little rephrasing of the question ... | MIZZOU::SHERMAN | quality first cause quality lasts | Thu Feb 16 1989 13:37 | 7 |
|
Just a thought. If Decker and Hunt had left out entirely any
references to being pregnant or procreating, would there have been
much point to the interview with the young woman? If so, what would
it have been? If not, then what was their intent?
Steve
|
188.46 | Ready to go on? | CLIMB::LEIGH | Blessed are the meek; | Wed Feb 22 1989 15:51 | 90 |
| Hi Ed,
We've beat this "eternal pregnancy" thing quite a bit, but I'm not sure that
we understand each other.
> As Kevin St. Thomas so aptly pointed
> out, for a goddess to give birth to a world of people, "spirit babies" or
> otherwise, she would certainly expect to be in some state of pregnant
> anticipation for a very long time!
Since we have no knowledge about "eternal procreation", we have no reason
at all to expect that exalted women would be in "some state of pregnant
anticipation for a very long time". We have no reason to expect anything
about the condition they would be in.
> You take such great offense at Decker and Hunt's summation of some
> Mormon womens' statements,
I don't think that Decker and Hunt merely gave a "summation" of a woman's
statement. I think that they gave the woman's statement in a context of
scorn and ridicule. They presented the woman's statement as an "astonishing
story", one that caused "audible gasps all through the audience", one that
caused "sudden shock" in the viewers, one that caused the "audible gasps"
to turn to "embarrassed laughter", one that caused the audience to think
"How could any intelligent person really think like that? Is it a joke?"
After they had created this context that the woman's statement was in fact
a joke, then they [in their book] presented the statement itself. It seems
very obvious to me that in choosing their words and sentences, they presented
the woman's statement in a way that the reader of their book would also have
"audible gasps", "astonishment", and "sudden shock".
> yet you really only disagree with how they [D & H]
> say it rather than what they say!
I feel that I am disagreeing with what they say as well as how they say it.
They said that the LDS church teaches that exalted women will be eternally
pregnant, and the Church does not teach that. They did not say in a
general way that exalted women would have eternal procreation of some kind
(which we believe). They said that exalted women would have a specific
kind of eternal procreation, that of being pregnant in the mortal sense
of pregnancy. My disagreement is with their advocating a specific type
of procreation, as well as how they did it.
I've expressed my opinion that Decker and Hunt used the phrase "eternally
pregnant" rather than "eternally procreation" (or something similar) because
they wanted to influence their audience against the Church. The description
they gave of the "audible gasps", "sudden shock", and "embarrassed laughter"
indicate that their use of "eternally pregnant" did have the effect that I
claim was their real purpose.
In her reply (.44), Louise gave a nice summary that the effect of "eternally
pregnant" had upon her; my reaction to the phrase was similar when I saw
the movie, since my wife had a lot of morning sickness.
The term
"eternally procreating" seems much more in tune with the teachings
of the church than does "eternally pregnany". As a woman, I would
be much more receptive to the Church's teaching about procreation
than if they made it sound like I would be pregnant for eternity.
Maybe to you it is the same thing, but to me it is not the same
at all. Women have a tendency to connotate being pregnant as being
large, sickly (sometimes), uncomfortable, etc. However, I seriously doubt
that as a Goddess in Heaven we would have to withstand the discomforts
of earthly pregnancy. Being a Mother in Heaven certainly sounds
more desireable than being a Baby Factory for all eternity which is
exactly the way this concept as presented by Decker and Hunt comes
across.
> Since you have already demonstrated
> that Mormons believe in some form of procreation in "the eternities",
> then this whole flap is really only over terminology.
This whole flap has nothing to do with terminology per se. The term "eternally
pregnant" refers to a specific method of procreation, and it draws upon our
understanding of mortal procreation and suggests that eternal procreation
will be similar. The term "eternal procreation" is a general term that
gives no suggestions about how that procreation would occur. The two terms
are very different, and I think that had Decker and Hunt used "eternal
procreation", the audience would have had far fewer "audible gasps", etc.
I've reviewed the previous replies to see if I need to make additional
comments now that I have my own copy of "The God Makers". I think, Ed, that I
am ready to go on to something new. So far, the topics we've chosen from
the book have been ones I selected. You might like to select some that you
want to focus on.
Allen
|
188.47 | Yes, let's | CASV02::PRESTON | Better AI than none at all | Thu Feb 23 1989 16:54 | 59 |
188.48 | Just a minute.... | ONFIRE::PERM | Kevin R. Ossler | Thu Feb 23 1989 18:12 | 32 |
| RE: < Note 188.47 by CASV02::PRESTON >
Ed,
May I mention that I can hardly believe you would defend this book to such
an amazing extent? Forget 'eternal pregnancy' for a moment. Do you
seriously contend that this book as a whole truly represents Mormon beliefs?
You've asked us to read this book. It seems that at least some of us have
done so. I'd like to ask you to read "The Truth about 'The God Makers'",
one Mormon's rebuttal to the assertions of Decker and Hunt. If you want to
borrow my copy, I'd be happy to lend it to you. Or give it to you if you
want it. There is much, much more that can be said in rebuttal to Decker
and Hunt than further regurgitations of 'eternal pregnancy.'
The nicest thing I can say about 'The God Makers' is that it is comprised
of wall-to-wall lies, distortion, and innuendo. My personal opinion is that
it is also a piece of bigoted filth. Perhaps *that* isn't Mormon doctrine
either, but at least this Mormon believes it.
Allen will always avoid offense if possible. But I just can't let it go
unsaid that this book is deeply offensive to Mormons and tramples on our
most sacred beliefs, and apparently does so to promote the idea that our
religion is really an evil conspiracy. From what other time in history
might you have heard that same, terrible assertion? It isn't the first time
such lies have been foisted on the world in the name of righteousness.
In short, anyone who believes that 'The God Makers' is true is seriously,
sadly misled. Perhaps this isn't my most positive entry in this notesfile,
but this really needed to be said.
/kevin
|
188.49 | | CLIMB::LEIGH | Blessed are the meek; | Thu Feb 23 1989 18:50 | 82 |
| >I am disapointed at how far you have been willing to stretch this issue
>of "eternal pregnancy" in your attempts to discredit Decker and Hunt. I
>have read and re-read the portions of the book that are germane to this
>subject, and I find no evidence whatsoever to support your claim that
>they made "unsubstantiated charges" regarding LDS doctrine. You have more
>or less created this entire issue by accusing Decker and Hunt of
>something they clearly did not do, and that is, make statements about
>LDS *doctrine*. They made statements about what some Mormons *believe*,
>but not about LDS doctrine.
Decker & Hunt said, "To the average person who only knows the mask that
Mormonism wears and not the real face behind it (and this includes many
Mormons), it is staggering to hear a beautiful and seemingly intelligent
young woman express the incredible hopes she had as a Mormon wife." I
feel that the phrase "the mask that Mormonism wears" indicates Decker &
Hunt are talking about LDS doctrine not just beliefs of LDS people.
Then they said, "If that sounds bizarre, then Janet's testimony assures us
that Jolene was not the only Mormon woman who took seriously the promise
of becoming an eternally pregnant goddess." I feel that the phrase "the
promise" indicates they are talking about LDS doctrine. I have to admit
that they did not explicitly say who made "the promise", but I feel that
implicitly they are saying the LDS Church made "the promise".
I think, Ed, that if a person who knew little about the LDS church read that
part of the book, they would come away with the idea that the LDS church did
teach that women could become "eternally pregnant". So, from my viewpoint,
I think that Decker & Hunt were making claims about LDS doctrine, but in an
indirect and subtle way.
>There is also no evidence to support your statement that they were "mapping
>Orson's speculations into Church doctrine". How did they do that? What
>reference did they make to Orson Pratt?
You have a good point; I made an assumption in my thinking. Originally,
I felt that Decker & Hunt had fabricated the phrase "eternally pregnant"
because it is a phrase that was not used in the Church; it is a phrase that,
as Louise explained, gives an undesirable "flavor" to the Mormon hopes of
exaltation. After Kevin pointed out that Orson Pratt had written about
"eternally pregnant", I gave Decker & Hunt the benefit of the doubt and
assumed in my mind that they had probably picked up the phrase from Pratt's
book. Hence my comment about their mapping the phrase.
>It's very interesting to note that their conclusions about what
>Mormons believe on this topic are very much in keeping with Pratt's
>writings, especially considering the high regard Mormons have for him. If
>their conclusions about Mormon beliefs are consistent with Pratt's
>writings, then they can't be too far off, can they?
That depends on how close Pratt's writings are to Church doctrine, and in the
case of "eternally pregnant", Pratt was way off base.
>By claiming that their "real purpose" for using the term was for it's
>affect on the audience, you are accusing them of fabricating what they
>claim is a frank testimony of a young Mormon woman, then lying about it.
>You are free to believe this if you like, but you ought to be willing to
>prove it.
The "real purpose" that I referred to is to write a book that will create
a negative attitude in their readers about the LDS church, rather than to
write a book that objectively discusses the Mormon church. Whether Jolene
is one real Mormon, a composite of real Mormons, or a fabricated Mormon
isn't very important. It seems very clear to me as I read pp. 22-23, that
they intentionally created a setting for Jolene's story that made it seem
ridiculous.
>In this case, you took one relatively insignifigant passage, and built an
>involved counter argument against it, getting more and more away from the
>facts as you went along.
I think I can understand your feelings, Ed, about that being an insignificant
passage, but from my viewpoint it is significant. I think that Louise
expressed the feelings that many readers of the book will have, i.e. that
the Mormon concept of exaltation is one of being a baby factory. I'm
not claiming that all readers will have such negative feelings, apparently
you don't, but I did when I saw the movie and Louise did, and I think that
many people will.
Allen
|
188.50 | back in '82 or so ... | MIZZOU::SHERMAN | quality first 'cause quality lasts | Thu Feb 23 1989 19:13 | 20 |
| I realize this is off the topic, but ...
When I was down in Dallas working for Mostek, one of the local TV
stations announced it was going to show the 'God Makers'. When
our Ward got wind of that, they contacted the station, presenting
to them the opinion that the film was heavily biased, presented
a distorted view of the Church and had outright lies in it, as I
recall. I believe they also protested this being done as a public
service. The station issued an assurance that the show would not air.
The show did air. There was some talk of the station offering a
private apology and a hint about an offer for some rebuttal time,
but nothing happened besides that. I remember that this bit of chicanery
on the part of those promoting the film at the station infuriated
members of the Ward. The members privately voiced their opinions via
letters to the station. But, nothing came of that either.
This experience demonstrated to me something of the attitude, tactics
and morals of some who promote this film.
Steve
|
188.51 | ONE LAST TIME | KIKETT::HAGUE_LO | AIM TO PLEASE | Fri Feb 24 1989 13:26 | 21 |
|
One last response and then I will let it go.
My question is, how many "Mormon Women" did Decker & Hunt interview
before they found Jolene? Was it 10, 100, 1000? If this is an
accurate survey of Mormon Women's feelings, then what was the
percentage of those that agreed with Jolene? Surely they can not
present as truth one woman's view. I have many women friends that
I asked and funny, but not even ONE concurred with Jolene to her
interpretation of being "Eternally Pregnant". This appears as a
lopsided distortion of what D & H would like everyone to believe.
"The God Makers" tends to present a distorted view of Mormon Women
and their mentality. If this one item in their book is an example
of their truths, then the entire book is a pack of lies and should
be dismissed as such.
Our Savior asks us to forgive those who bear false witness against
us. I forgive them.
Louise
|
188.52 | the real face | CLIMB::LEIGH | Blessed are the meek; | Fri Feb 24 1989 13:44 | 16 |
| I noticed that in my reply in .49, I didn't clearly explain why I feel that
one of the quotes I gave indicated that Decker & Hunt were claiming things
about church doctrine rather than giving opinions of members. The quote
concerned "the mask that Mormonism wears and not the real face behind it".
In my comments in .49 I said that the phrase "the mask that Mormonism wears"
indicated that Decker & Hunt were referring to church doctrine. What I should
have said was that the phrase "and not the real face behind it" gives that
indication.
In other words, Decker & Hunt said that the real Mormonism is different than
the common perception that people have of the church. Then they went on to
give Jolene's story as the "real face" behind the mask, a clear indication
in my opinion that they were presenting her story as the truth about Mormon
doctrine rather than just the opinion of a Mormon woman.
Allen
|
188.53 | | CLIMB::LEIGH | Moderator | Tue Mar 14 1989 11:33 | 34 |
| ================================================================================
Note 200.0 I LIKE IT HERE No replies
KIKETT::HAGUE_LO 29 lines 5-JAN-1989 17:16
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Boy, that was an eye opener. I was born in Salt Lake, lived in
Denver, and my husband was raised in Los Angeles. We both live
here in SLC by choice. We were not active members of the church until
4 years ago. We were never coerced to become active. We moved
back to Salt Lake because it is a great place to raise a family.
The biggest difference between living in Salt Lake and Denver/Los
Angeles is it is a whole lot safer here and the people
are a whole lot friendlier. I lived in Denver for 7 years and barely
knew my neighbors, whereas after moving back to Salt Lake, I was
greeted with open arms, meals, friendship and help by my new neighbors
(by the way, both LDS and non LDS). I was not an active member at
that time. The only fault I can find with people here is they tend
to trust people and sometimes get burned. It is true, you can not get
a drink in a restaurant as easily as other cities, and you may find
a lot less people in the malls on Sunday, (usually, they are all
at church) but I have NEVER found any rights infringed on because
of my religious preference or lack of. I have a lot of non-member
friends who teasingly complain about this dry state, but they find
the benefits here outweigh the small inconveniences.
By the way, maybe the promoting of a Zion Curtain is a good idea. It
might discourage some of the undesireables who find our life style
too restrictive, from moving here. Unfortunately, we have those too.
Utah, just a nice place to live.
Louise
|