Conference bulova::decw_jan-89_to_nov-90

Unfortunately, F1-F10 behavior is dictated as part of Motif style by OSF.  We
could try to change it, but I wouldn't be optimistic.

Dick

    That is silly. We have thousands of keyboards that say "EXIT" by F10.
    
    I believe we should make this customisable - default to F10=EXIIT with
    Alt/F10 to use the new stuff.
    
    
    /andy/

Andy,

Great idea!  Do YOU want to try to convince Ellis Cohen of this   8^{)  ?

Dick

Surely it is obvious that, where there is a conflict between the existing
(V2) keyboard conventions and the new Motif ones, the default must be that
it works the same as in the past.  In addition there should be an easily
accessible means (i.e., NOT hacking of the Xdefaults file) to say "I want
the new Motif bindings instead".

	paul

    Backward compatibility is an ideal affordable in a homogeneous culture.
    User interfaces is an area where the wheel is reinvented independently
    and in different ways.  I wasn't too happy that VMS wasn't backward
    compatible with P/OS on the function keys, but then again the Pro is
    dead so it doesn't matter.  I wasn't too happy when the Alt key usurped
    the place of the Compose key, but who needs those funny foreign
    characters anyway.
    
    If we maintained backward compatibilty, the LKx01 keyboards should all
    be laid out like the ASR33.
    
    No, I'm not happy with how Motif took over the F10 key but that's what
    happens when you have to go with software written by others. 
    Customization is perhaps the compromise we should strive for.
    
    --Simon
    

.1>> Unfortunately, F1-F10 behavior is dictated as part of Motif style by OSF.  We

I've found the following when I'm in the TPU editor and I issue the DEFINE KEY
command:

   F6  : Accepts definition, but still issues CTRL-C when pressed
   F7  : \
   F8  :  - All accept definition, and perform the desired function when pressed
   F9  : /
   F10 : Does not accept definition at all!
	 When pressed, both during selection for the DEFINE KEY command and at
	 any other time, it turns the mouse pointer to the default arrow shape
	 (I have it defined to be something else normally), and then selects
	 (i.e. puts a selection box around) the "File" submenu for the window.

What the heck does that mean?

...Roger...

How about we add a resource to disable them?  or qualify them?

Mwm*function_qualifier:  Alt<Key>

or some such...

-steve

    The F10 key has been chosen by the Open Software Foundation to perform
    the KMenuBar function.  This functionality MUST be available for
    DECwindows to be OSF compliant.

    DECterm will address this problem by establishing default behavior to
    permit the key F10 to function compatibly with previous releases.  

    The user may choose to override the default by performing the
    appropriate customization in the "Keyboard" dialog box.  

    The idea of swapping F10 and Shift-F10 so that both functions are
    always available is intriguing (as opposed to having "Exit", or
    KMenuBar, but not both).  I'd be interested in feedback concerning the
    idea of toggling Exit/KMenuBar between F10/Shift-F10. 

    Shift-F10 does not conflict with any published Motif keybindings, but I
    am concerned it might conflict with other applications that want to use
    Shift-F10.  Does it?

    Jim

    
    It's always nice to be able to do everything. :-) So the F10/Shift-F10
    option would be a really good idea, especially if it was customizable,
    such that Shift-F10 was KMenuBar by default, but F10 could also be it 
    for OSF compatability.
    
    But why does CapsLock-F10 cause F10 to act as EXIT ? I am not an expert
    on key bindings, but I wouldn't have thought that the CapsLock on/off 
    and the F-keys would create seperate meanings...
        
    Simon.

Capslock is supposed to act ONLY on letter keys.

As for Shift-F10, a look in DEC Std 70 would tell you that it too has an
assigned meaning (UDKs).

	paul

    Re .10
    
    Good points, both!  
    
    It looks like DECterm got lazy on handling shifted keys.  Caps lock
    should NOT work on function keys!  A definite bug!  :-(
    
    And the conflict with UDKs is unthinkable!  Thanks!  Looks like if
    there is no other alternative, the options will have to be mutually
    exclusive.
    
    Jim
    

    But <Alt>F10 might be ok?

Sure...

re: .12 by LESLIE::LESLIE

> But <Alt>F10 might be ok?

Ummmm, it would be best if DECterm (and other applications) stayed away
from using <Alt>F10.

The OSF, Microsoft, and IBM are working to bring Motif, MSwindows, and
Presentation Manager even closer together than they are today.  IBM has
specified <Alt>F10 for popping up "context menus" (popup menus).  It is
very likely that a future version of Motif will support this keybinding.

tms

    Howsabout <Shift><Alt>F10?
    
    
    /andy/

    Ha ha.
    
    Right, can we try to get back to the point? WHich is, to provide EXIT
    as the default function for F10 and some other method for traversal of
    the File Control etc stuff. <ctrl>F10, whatever. Just do it, okay?
    
    
    Thanks.
    
    
    /andy/

Meanwhile, is there some magical incantation in DECW$MWM.DAT (or some
other file) to get the F10=EXIT behavior?

-Mike

    No.....