Conference bulova::decw_jan-89_to_nov-90

Well, the current Motif schedule follows:

  Alpha release - April 17
  Beta release  - May 30
  Final OSF delivery - July 7

					steve

 Matt Thomas has made available an Ultrix version.  
This was announced in the Ultrix Conference (dir/title=3am ..at NAC::ULTRIX).
I hope a VMS ninja will port it for VMS users.

This snapshot gives you the HP/OSF Motif Window Manager.
Also some files for various widgets have floating around internally for
for some time now.

Kris...

    Can anyone translate this to English, please?  i.e., what's
    an "OSF Motif"?
    
    Thanks

"Motif" is OSF's name for their standard bitmapped graphical toolkit and UI
style layered on top of X Windows.  It is the compromise that OSF accepted
combining elements of the HP/MicroSoft toolkit submission with our XUI
submission in response to their windowing RFT.  Essentially "look and feel" and
window manager come from the HP/MS submission while the widget set and
programming interface are from XUI.

--PSW

    For the adventuresome among you:
    The aforementioned window manager is available at:
    UFP::SYS$KITS:[HPWM]. HPWM.EXE is the window manager.
    			  HPWM.RC is the menu definitions and key
    			  definitions; put this in DECW$USER_DEFAULTS:.
    			  DECW$XDEFAULTS.DAT contains as much documentation
    			  as I have on resources... using what's in this
    			  file will allow you to customize to your heart's
    			  content.
    
    
    I quite like this window manager..give it a try and see what you think.
    
    To run it, shoot down the decwindows window manager (usually DECW$WM_1)
    and run HPWM. The windows will be decorated with three buttons usually;
    the leftmost button brings down a menu. The two buttons on the right
    iconify and maximize a window.
    
    Clicking on the root background will bring up a menu; this gets defined
    in the HPWM.RC file.
    
    My .RC file allows moving a window by grabbing the border with MB2, and
    resize by grabbing with MB1. You can swap this around if you want.
    
    If you install this, send me mail so I can inform users of any updates.
    	-Rick

	I'm running this now and I LIKE it!  Just gotta play with the 
	XDEFAULTS and I should be golden..  NICE job!!!!

	(I love the one button "Pop to a full screen"!!)

						mike

    Is it too much to suppose that CHILD works okay with this?

    Buglet time: if you start hpwm directly from the session manager, you
    won't be able to execute any programs, and restart won't work. There's
    no CLI in this case to spawn with.
    The next two replies contain the resource settings for a monochrome ws
    (my xdefaults was stolen from a color ws) and a listing of the
    functions available in the menu processor. There's not much more doc
    around... sorry.
    	-Rick

Hpwm.internalBevel:			4
Hpwm*Background:			Black
Hpwm*Foreground:			White
Hpwm.foreground:			black
Hpwm.background:			white
Hpwm*makeActiveColors:			false
Hpwm*makeColors:			false
Hpwm*activeBackground:			Black
Hpwm*activeBackgroundTile:		background
Hpwm*activeForeground:			White
Hpwm*activeTopShadowTile:		foreground
Hpwm*borderColor:			black
Hpwm*BorderWidth:			20
Hpwm.menu.backgroundTile:		background
!Hpwm.menu.BorderWidth:			2

Here's the list of f.mumbles in the hpwm.rc file. Many are not yet implemented.

Beep
Circle_Down
Circle_Up
Exec
Focus_Color
Focus_Key
Kill
Lower
Maximize
Menu
Minimize
Move
Next_Cmap
Next_Key
Nop
Normalize
Post_SMenu
Post_WMenu
Prev_Key
Quit_Hpwm
Raise
Raise_Lower
Refresh
Refresh_Win
Resize
Restart
Separator
Title
Destroy
Focus_Extension
Function
Send_Msg
    

       RE: .7
       
       	Child works peachy Andy...
       
       						mike

    
    How does one control where the icons get put by default ? I'd like them
    to go along the top of the screen - currently, they end up in a row at
    the bottom.
    
    Also, I'd like to know if it's possible to get the "prev_key" function
    to only select expanded windows, rather than the icons as well.
    
    Trevor

I love it! It "feels" much quicker for some reason. 

Wil the official DECWindows have this Window Manager Interface? Its REALLY 
nice.

Andy

    In the Ultrix defaults file .Xdefaults the icon placement is controlled
    by
    
    Hpwm.iconPlacement:		left bottom
    
    In your case if would be "left top"
    
    I am NOT sure if all resources are same in Ultrix and VMS versions of
    hpwm.
    
    I actually run the hpwm from Ultrix(8800) and point it to my MV running VMS.
    It works just greate.
    
    Robert

It is interesting but I prefer the DECWwindows wm.  It looks more polished
to me...  Anyway, my real question is how do I restart the DECwindows
wm after running this one (or uwm).  Everything seems to die.

Thanks
Chad

    Re .most:

    Folks here who have seen the real window manager submitted to OSF claim
    that it is incredibly more 'flashy' than HPWM. In short, they were
    blown away. What is HPWM compared to the one HP/Microsoft gave to OSF?

    Denis.

The OSF demo uses HPWM with some special demos added....including menubar 
where applications can be automatically fired off... a draw/image widget, and
a few other nice things.

The basic funtionality is still the same.

								Kris..

Anyone know how to use the Control key <Ctrl> in defining 
DefaultButtonBindings?  I've tried:

Ctrl<Btn3Down>    window     f.minimize

to no avail.

Thanks,

         == ken miller ==

    I like it...

    A question to you folks playing with it -- does anyone else have
    problem with resizing windows?  When I extend the left edge of DECterm,
    for instance, only the scroll bar and an underlying window are resized
    -- the main window (e.g. the one with the text) remain unaffected.
    It's almost as if a geometry request is being passed far enough along.

    Curiously, I witness the same behavior with PCX$UWM.  I wonder if its a
    bug in our toolkit or if uwm and hpwm happen to share the same bug?

    RE: Icon placement

    In playing with the iconPlacement resource, you can do very interesting
    things, depending on the order of the top/bottom, left/right options.
    For instance, a row of icons along the top marching right-to-left would
    be:

	Hpwm.iconPlacement: top right

    A row of icons place vertically on the left, descending from the top:

	Hpwm.iconPlacement: left top
    

Try different settings of the two "Auto Resize" entires in the Window
entry in the Customize menu of the DECTerm.

Hmmm...not bad at all.  But what I want to know is how
come the icons are allowed to get focus during cycle
(or even clicking on them in the default (w/o a .rc
file) mode)?  They still don't actually take characters,
but they do seem to brighten.

Burns

    Anyone else notice that the "Remove" key just isn't seen with this WM
    running?
    
    This on a VS2000 GPX 4-plane.

1. My hpwm.rc file (which is in sys$login:) seems to be ignored -- it takes
a double-click to deiconify anything and the root menu doesn't work at all
(nothing like my hpwm.rc behavior).

2. The 'Remove' key stops working.

Re: .23, .24

Remove all remove references to 0x1000FF00 in your HPWM.RC.

Well, I have to register a dissenting opinion.  I think its window decorations
look hideous.  The buttons in the title bar are too small to hold meaningful
icons, it's awfully hard to tell when you've activated one after clicking on
it, and where did they get that ghastly font from??

Functionally it looks like it might be an improvement over the DECwindows
window manager, but I find the form so revolting that I haven't bothered to
explore all of what it can do.

I hope that OSF/Motif fixes this up before they release it.

--PSW

    re .-1	I concur, and would also add that the quarter-inch-thick
    		borders are hugely ugly. (Mind you, even the DECwindows
    		WM goes overboard here -- two pixels when one would do!).
    

I started playing with HPWM on Friday.  It's great!  I've already modified my
startup to run it by default (redefining DECW$WINMGREXE).  The only problem with
that style is that it doesn't find HPWM.RC... and I figured out how to fix this
(this may also be the answer to BESSIE::HOYT's question in .24).  In
DECW$XDEFAULTS.DAT, set the resource "configFile" like the following...

Hpwm*configFile: dua0:[butenhof]hpwm.rc

As for the REMOVE key... I've no idea what the default bindings are, but the
hpwm.rc that was posted defines REMOVE to expand icons, and CTRL/SHIFT/REMOVE
to shrink windows.  I hadn't even realized until I opened this conference now
that HPWM was responsible, but it makes sense (since it does seem to work even
inside the window).  I'll try changing the .rc to use CTRL/SHIFT/REMOVE for
both functions (they are qualified by object type, so I assume that should be
possible).

Someone else commented on the thickness of the resize borders... they can be
customized with "Hpwm*resizeBorderWidth".

Now, a question:  there are both "font" and "iconFont" resources in the sample
resource file... but HPWM appears to ignore iconFont.  Anybody know anything
about this?  I tried to make it use 12pt Souvenir Demi for the window titles
(which works) and 10pt Souvenir Light for the icon titles so it would clip less
of the title... but it still uses 12pt.

	/dave

If you ask me, the last several replies to this topic proves without a doubt
why DECwindows *must* support customization.  You just can't please
everybody!

Regards,

                    == ken miller ==

    I have to concur with PSW - it's got a few features that are nicer
    than what we've been using, but on the whole it's uglier than sin
    and some things (like resizing) are positively sluggish on my
    machine. The one thing I liked was the individual icons - but they
    should be draggable (if they aren't; I couldn't get them to move).
    ALso, it's got bugs: I managed to get two applications stuck in one
    icon. Go figure.
    
    After about an hour wasted, back to the DECwindows window manager.

    Paul, odd that, its faster on my VS2000 than the "real" window
    manager.
    
    As to moving Icons, press MB2 over 'em and they move a treat.

    re .30:  Paul:  If you are using the default actions (without an RC
    file), then the icons drag with mouse button 1 and deiconnify with
    a double click of MB1.  If you are using the RC file supplied in the
    directory where you go HPWM, then the icons drag with one of the other
    mouse buttons (either 2 or 3...don't remember which) and deiconify with
    a single click of MB1.
    
    I also found it to be nice and quick.  I agree that there is room for
    improvement in the form.  I think the decoration looks to "heavy" and
    "clunky", although I like the 3D look dislike the font.  I suspect
    these factors are all being juggled in a great compromise.  For
    example, to get a better font, you may have to make the border wider
    which makes it look clunker.  To make the border thinner w/o using
    a yeuchy font, you may have to do away with 3d.
    
    Burns
    

The "3D" look reminds me of the fins on early '60s cars: it looks amusing but
has no value.

The customization might be useful, though customization is a two-edged
sword.  (Make any change and the documentation becomes invalid...)  The
"root menu" function I found useful.

On the whole, I agree with PSW, I'll stick to DECwm.

	paul

    Wow -- three "Paul"s all in agreement!  I concur as well, the fonts
    suck, the borders are too wide, the pulldowns look like 3rd-grade work.
    It does provide an iteresting contrast between the window manager's
    job and the Toolkit's job.
    
    On the other hand, it does seem to run faster than our WM.  Perhaps
    theirs doesn't use a general-purpose toolkit so is more compact.
    
      John

!    Try this as your decw$xdefaults.dat:
*blinkRate: 0
*slider: LightGrey
*sessionmenu.PauseButton.label: Call up Pause Screen
*sessionmenu.QuitButton.label:  Die in Flames                
Hpwm.internalBevel:                     4
Hpwm*makeColors:                        true
Hpwm*background:                        LightGrey
Hpwm*activeBackground:                  #bbffdd
Hpwm*backgroundTile:                    background
Hpwm*font:      -Adobe-ITC Souvenir-Demi-R-Normal--*-120-*-*-*-*-ISO8859-1
Hpwm*iconFont:  -Adobe-ITC Souvenir-Light-I-Normal--*-100-*-*-*-*-ISO8859-1
Hpwm*resizeBorderWidth:                 5
Hpwm.iconPlacement:                     right bottom
Hpwm.iconImageMinimum:                  16x16
Hpwm*DECW$BANNER.clientDecoration:           -minimize -maximize -resize -syste
Hpwm*configFile: sys$login:hpwm.rc
*DECW$TERMINAL.initialState: 3
*DECW$Mail.initialState: 3

There are many things you can do with the HPWM if you put in some time
and patience ;-).....I copied the HP documentation from DECWRL::....

I agree with many of the comments (both pros and cons..).  It must be
remembered that the HPWM is  still sort of a hack ...should get better
over time.

Kris..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*.*blinkRate:				0
#ifndef COLOR
*.*foreground:				white
!*.*background:				black
*.*slider:				white
*.*highlight:				white
*.*borderColor:				white
#endif

!*.*shadow:				on
!
!
! DEC Session Manager
!
sm.keyclick_percent:			86
sm.pointer_shape:			68
sm.create_terminal:			1
sm.message_size_rows:			12
!sm.startup_state:			iconified
sm.terminalEmulatorName:		xterm
sm.windowManagerName:			./hpwm
sm.message_history_size:		25
sm.num_hosts:	3
sm.host_list:	FUEL::,localhost,karass::*
sm.mouse_accel_denominator:		-1
sm.mouse_accel_numerator:		-1
sm.mouse_accel_threshold:		-1
!sm.MainWindow.x:			
!sm.MainWindow.y:			
!sm.MainWindow.width:			630
!sm.MainWindow.height:			280
!sm.MainWindow*DwtText*font:		-*-Courier-Medium-R-Normal--*-120-*-*-M-*-ISO8859-1
!sm.MainWindow*SText*font:		-*-Courier-Medium-R-Normal--*-120-*-*-M-*-ISO8859-1
!sm.MainWindow.menubar*font:		!-*-Helvetica-Medium-R-Normal--*-100-*-*-*-*-ISO8859-1
!sm.*sessionmenu*font:			-*-Helvetica-Medium-R-Normal--*-100-*-*-*-*-ISO8859-1
!sm.*createmenu*font:			-*-Helvetica-Medium-R-Normal--*-100-*-*-*-*-ISO8859-1
!sm.*setupmenu*font:			-*-Helvetica-Medium-R-Normal--*-100-*-*-*-*-ISO8859-1
!sm.*printmenu*font:			-*-Helvetica-Medium-R-Normal--*-100-*-*-*-*-ISO8859-1
!sm.*helpmenu*font:			-*-Helvetica-Medium-R-Normal--*-100-*-*-*-*-ISO8859-1
sm.display_pattern:	45
sm.display_background:	#ee138ccc8f5b
sm.display_foreground:	#000000000000
#ifdef COLOR
sm*foreground:				firebrick
sm*background:				wheat
sm*borderColor:				black
sm*slider:				mediumvioletred
sm*highlight:				red
#endif
!
!
!
!xterm.borderWidth:			0
!#ifdef COLOR
!xterm*foreground:			yellow
!xterm*background:			#ab723b
!#endif
!
!
!
!sm*windowManagerName:			hpwm
!
! Resources for the HP window manager
!
Hpwm*font:				-*-Helvetica-Bold-R-Normal--*-120-*-*-*-*-ISO8859-1
!
! Colormap Focus:			explicit keyboard pointer
! Frame Decorations:			[sign] decor_spec [decor_spec ...]
!	sign:				['+' | '-']
!	decor_spec:			[sign] decor_name
!	decor_name:			"all" | "none" | "title" | "titlebar" |
!					"system" | "minimize" | "maximize" |
!					"resize" 
! Keyboard Focus:			explicit pointer
! Icon Decorations:			image label activelabel
! Icon Placement:			bottom left pack right top
! Make Color:				all false none shadow true
!
! Global Resources:
!
!Hpwm.acceleratedFunctions:		
!Hpwm.autoRaiseDelay:			1000
Hpwm.bitmapDirectory:			/usr/include/X11/bitmaps
!Hpwm.buttonBindings:			DefaultButtonBindings
!Hpwm.colormapFocusPolicy:		keyboard
!Hpwm.configFile:			
!Hpwm.doubleClickTime:			500
!Hpwm.extensionFocusPolicy:		keyboard
!Hpwm.freezeOnConfig:			True
!Hpwm.iconAutoPlace:			True
!Hpwm.iconDecoration:			label image
!Hpwm.iconFont:				
!Hpwm.iconImageMaximum:			50x50
!Hpwm.iconImageMinimum:			32x32
!Hpwm.iconPlacement:			left bottom
!Hpwm.iconPlacementMargin:		-1
!Hpwm.initializeClasses:
Hpwm.interactivePlacement:		false
#ifdef COLOR
!Hpwm.internalBevel:			2
#endif
#ifndef COLOR
Hpwm.internalBevel:			4
#endif
!Hpwm.keyBindings:			DefaultKeyBindings
Hpwm.keyboardFocusPolicy:		explicit
!Hpwm.limitResize:			False
!Hpwm.maximumMaximumSize:		0x0
!Hpwm.moveOpaque:			False
!Hpwm.moveThreshold:			4
!Hpwm.passSelectButton:			True
!Hpwm.positionIsFrame:			True
!Hpwm.positionOnScreen:			True
!Hpwm.quitTimeout:			1000
Hpwm.resizeBorderWidth:			5
!Hpwm.resizeCursors:			True
!Hpwm.resizeThreshold:			4
!Hpwm.restartSettings:
!Hpwm.setupColormaps:			False
Hpwm.transientDecoration:		Title resize
!Hpwm.workspaceMenu:
! The following resources are per-class resource:
! 	"Hpwm.<client_class>.<resource_identifier>"
!
Hpwm.xclock.clientDecoration:		all - title
Hpwm.xload.clientDecoration:		all - title
!Hpwm.NONAME.clientDecoration:		All
!Hpwm.NONAME.focusAutoRaise:		True
!Hpwm.NONAME.iconImage:			
!Hpwm.NONAME.iconImageBackground:
!Hpwm.NONAME.iconImageBottomShadowColor:
!Hpwm.NONAME.iconImageBottomShadowTile:
!Hpwm.NONAME.iconImageForeground:
!Hpwm.NONAME.iconImageTopShadowColor:
!Hpwm.NONAME.iconImageTopShadowTile:
!Hpwm.NONAME.makeIconColors:		shadow
!Hpwm.NONAME.makeMatteColors:		shadow
!Hpwm.NONAME.matteBackground:
!Hpwm.NONAME.matteBottomShadowColor:
!Hpwm.NONAME.matteBottomShadowTile:
!Hpwm.NONAME.matteForeground:
!Hpwm.NONAME.matteTopShadowColor:
!Hpwm.NONAME.matteTopShadowTile:
!Hpwm.NONAME.matteWidth:		0
!Hpwm.NONAME.maximumClientSize:		0x0
!Hpwm.NONAME.pointerAutoRaise:		False
!Hpwm.NONAME.systemMenu:		DefaultSystemMenu
!
! wmAppearanceResources
!
! These resources are specified with the following syntax:
!
!	"Hpwm*<resource_identifier>"
!	"Hpwm.client.<resource_identifier>"
!	"Hpwm.icon.<resource_identifier>"
!	"Hpwm.menu.<resource_identifier>"
!
!Hpwm.XXXXX.background:			White
!Hpwm.XXXXX.backgroundTile:		25_foreground
!Hpwm.XXXXX.bottomShadowColor:		Black
!Hpwm.XXXXX.bottomShadowTile:		foreground
!Hpwm.XXXXX.font:			fixed
!Hpwm.XXXXX.foreground:			Black
!Hpwm.XXXXX.makeActiveColors:		shadow
!Hpwm.XXXXX.makeColors:			shadow
!Hpwm.XXXXX.topShadowColor:		Black
!Hpwm.XXXXX.topShadowTile:		50_foreground
!Hpwm.XXXXX.activeBackground:		
!Hpwm.XXXXX.activeBackgroundTile:	background
!Hpwm.XXXXX.activeBottomShadowColor:	
!Hpwm.XXXXX.activeBottomShadowTile:
!Hpwm.XXXXX.activeForeground:
!Hpwm.XXXXX.activeTopShadowColor:
!Hpwm.XXXXX.activeTopShadowTile:

#ifdef COLOR
Hpwm*makeColors:   			true
Hpwm*Background:			tan
Hpwm.menu*Foreground:			#a0a0a0
Hpwm.menu*Background:			SkyBlue
Hpwm*Background:			SkyBlue
Hpwm*Foreground:			#ffffff
Hpwm*activeBackground:			SkyBlue
Hpwm*activeForeground:			#ffffff
Hpwm*icon*topShadowColor:		thistle	
Hpwm*icon*background:			wheat
Hpwm*icon*foreground:			NavyBlue
Hpwm*icon*makeColors:			true
#endif
#ifndef COLOR
!Hpwm*Background:			Black
!Hpwm*Foreground:			White
!Hpwm.foreground:			black
!Hpwm.background:			white
!Hpwm.bottomShadowTile:			75_foreground
!Hpwm.backgroundTile:			50_foreground
!Hpwm.topShadowTile:			25_foreground
!Hpwm*bottomShadowTile:			50_background
!Hpwm*topShadowTile:			50_background
!Hpwm*makeActiveColors:			false
!Hpwm*makeColors:			false
!Hpwm*activeBackground:			Black
!Hpwm*activeBackgroundTile:		background
!Hpwm*activeBottomShadowTile:		50_foreground
!Hpwm*activeForeground:			White
!Hpwm*activeTopShadowTile:		foreground
!Hpwm*borderColor:			black
!Hpwm*BorderWidth:			1
!Hpwm.menu.backgroundTile:		background
!Hpwm.menu.BorderWidth:			2
#endif

#ifdef COLOR
colordemo*Valuator*Height:		200
colordemo*Valuator*Width:		32
colordemo*font:	fixed
colordemo*background:		        #feffbb
colordemo*Quit*background:		plum
colordemo*Color*background:		white
colordemo*StaticText*Strip:		False
#endif
!

RE .26, .27, and others:

That is why it should be *EASY* for *USERS* to use whatever window
manager they want.  Right now, the current implimentation seems to make
it almost impossible for a *USER* to automatically user a different
window manager.  (The reason I am *HIGHLIGHTING* the word *USER* is because
the only easy way to substitute a WM is to modify the startup file, which
is done by a *SYSTEM MANAGER*.)  It should NEVER be POLICY to force a
user to use a spcific window manager!

(I must HAVE been READING too much DVORAK).....

P.S.: I hate all of the extraneous window dressing that both the DECW and
HPWM window managers add.  That is why I like the UWM best:  I can have
lots more windows on the screen and still see what is going on....

I like the additional features not sure about the look though.

Re: .16

>...Anyway, my real question is how do I restart the DECwindows
>wm after running this one (or uwm).  Everything seems to die.

If you don't kill off your window manager, but simply redefine the logical 
DECW$WINMGREXE to the window manager you want to use and then quit the 
session via the session manager, next time you start a session it will use
whatever window manager you have defined.

Re: .19

>Anyone know how to use the Control key <Ctrl> in defining 
>DefaultButtonBindings?  I've tried:
>
>Ctrl<Btn3Down>    window     f.minimize

I have it defined exactly the same and it works fine

Re: .20

>    A row of icons place vertically on the left, descending from the top:
>
>        Hpwm.iconPlacement: left top
  
This gives me a row of icons along the top of the screen and seems to be
the same as:

	 Hpwm.iconPlacement: top left 

To get a row of icons placed vertically on the left, descending from the top
I used:

	 Hpwm.iconPlacement: top bottom

Re: .23,.24

The REMOVE key seems to work fine providing the icon/window has input focus.
This could be the reason why icons are allowed to get focus without actually
accepting characters.


Andrew.

    Well, I think that the HPWM is stunningly wonderful. It has all sorts
    of things that I like -- a cycle key (and a backwards cycle key), a
    definable background popup menu, no icon box, it doesn't *insist* that
    borderless windows float above everything else, etc.
    
    Now, the defaults on the thing look like someone did some careful human
    factors research to ensure that it would be as ugly as possible. But
    with a wee bit of customization, it's almost as good as -- sliced
    bread.
    
    	Jon
    
    Here's what I have:
    
    In my decw$xdefaults (borrowed liberally from Andy Leslie):
    
#
# HP Window Manager
#
Hpwm.internalBevel:                     4
Hpwm*makeColors:                        true
Hpwm*background:                        LightGrey
Hpwm*activeBackground:                  Sienna
Hpwm*backgroundTile:                    background
Hpwm*font:      -Adobe-ITC Souvenir-Demi-R-Normal--*-120-*-*-*-*-ISO8859-1
Hpwm*iconFont:  -Adobe-ITC Souvenir-Light-I-Normal--*-100-*-*-*-*-ISO8859-1
Hpwm*resizeBorderWidth:                 5
Hpwm.iconPlacement:                     left top
Hpwm.iconImageMinimum:                  16x16
Hpwm*DECW$BANNER.clientDecoration:           -minimize -maximize -resize -syste
Hpwm*configFile: sys$login:hpwm.rc
    
    And my hpwm.rc is:
    
Menu DefaultSystemMenu
{
"Push behind"       f.lower
"Pop in front"      f.raise
"Change the size"   f.resize
"Shrink to an icon" f.minimize
no-label            f.separator
Move                f.move
Delete              f.kill
"Expand window" f.maximize
}
Menu RootMenu
{
"Root Menu"             f.title
"Commands"              f.menu Commands
no-label                f.separator
"Refresh"               f.refresh
"Shuffle Up"            f.circle_up
"Shuffle Down"          f.circle_down
no-label                f.separator
"Restart wmgr"          f.restart
}
Menu Commands
{
"Commands"      f.title
"Mail"          f.exec "run sys$system:decw$mail"
"Notepad"       f.exec "run sys$system:decw$notepad"
"Freemem"       f.exec "run sys$system:freemem"
"Notes"         f.exec "notes/dec"
"Calculator"    f.exec "run sys$system:decw$calc"
"Calendar"      f.exec "run sys$system:decw$calendar"
}
Keys DefaultKeyBindings
{
<Key>F3				window			f.raise
<Key>F4                         root|icon|window        f.prev_key
<Key>F5				root|icon|window	f.next_key
Shift<Key>F5                    root|icon|window        f.circle_up
}
Buttons DefaultButtonBindings
{
<Btn1Down>              root            f.menu  RootMenu
<Btn1Down>              frame           f.focus_key
<Btn1Down>              icon            f.normalize
<Btn2Down>              frame           f.move
<Btn2Down>              icon            f.move
<Btn3Down>              frame           f.lower
Meta<Btn1Down>          icon|window     f.move
Meta<Btn3Down>          window          f.raise
Meta<Btn3Down>          root            f.circle_up
}

I like it too.  I think the 3D look is really nice and adds to the feeling of
quality.  It's sort of like the polish of the Mac that I always thought was 
missing from DECwindows.  Dating back from the days before buttons had drop-
shadows...  The DECwindows WM is just so "harsh" by comparison.

I also like having the cycle key back and being able to define a pop-up menu
for the root window.

I am having some trouble getting it to startup as the default window manager.
I have the RUN_HPWM.EXE hack and tried defining DECW$WINMGREXE in DECW$STARTAPPS
to point to this image.  I ended up with no window manager.  Would those of you
who've managed to do this post some more help...

    
    I put this line into DECW$STARTAPPS.COM. 
    
$ decw$define decw$winmgrexe	sys$system:HP$winmgr.exe

I use the following .Com file to start up HPWM from a FileView process; it ain't
perfect (it assumes that the current WM name is DECW$WM_1, f'rinstance), but it
works OK for me.


$
$ ! This command file will (hopefully) start up the HP window manager for me.
$
$ Set NoOn
$ If F$Mode() .eqs. "OTHER"
$  Then
$	Set Display/Create/Transport=Local
$	MCR HPWM
$	Set Display/NoPermanent
$  Else
$	Dir = F$TrnLnm("Sys$Login")
$	If P1 .eqs. "" Then P1 = "DECW$WM_1"
$	Stop "''P1'"
$	Run/Detach/Authorize Sys$System:Loginout	-
		/Input='Dir'HPWM.Com			-
		/Output='Dir'HPWM.Log			-
		/Process="''P1'"
$
$  EndIf
$

>
>Re: .16
>
>>...Anyway, my real question is how do I restart the DECwindows
>>wm after running this one (or uwm).  Everything seems to die.
>
>If you don't kill off your window manager, but simply redefine the logical 
>DECW$WINMGREXE to the window manager you want to use and then quit the 
>session via the session manager, next time you start a session it will use
>whatever window manager you have defined.
>

This didn't work for me... care to elaborate?  I defined it in both
system and decw log tables, quit the session, logged back in and still had dw
winmgr.  ^^^^^^^^^^^ (and various combinations )

Thanks

Chad

>...defined in exec mode

Bingo!  After entering my last reply I did that and that was the key.
Then I come back in here and there's the answer.  Too bad I already
figured it out :-) ( by looking ta the symbol decw$define )

It also looks a lot better.  Killing of the wm and then starting this
one didn't start it right I guess because it looked horrible.  Starting through
exiting and logging in the SM makes it come up correctly.  I am not
sure if I prefer it or the DECwm.  Time will tell.  It will take some time
however to get things defined so I know how they work and so that they suit
me.  So many resources, so little time.

A list of questions I am going to research by looking at examples, trial
and error, etc are (if any of you have answers, meldet euch!)

  Is there a way to use the small 17x17 icons.  I specified in the xdefaults.dat
16x16 and it gave me that much of the large icons.

  Currently focus follows the pointer for me.  Fine.  But how do I get the
window to pop to the top, either automatically or by clicking anywhere?  
Clicking for the menu doesn't make my day.

  What do the various decoration flags mean?


Chad

    
     A couple of people have noted that it's nice to have a Cycle key
    again. I find it somewhat useless because it selects the icons as well
    (at least on my system...). Has anyone got it set up such that it
    *doesn't* cycle through the icons ?
    
    Trevor

   There are some sample DECW$XDEFAULTS.DAT which cause the focus to be
"explicit" as opposed to following the pointer.  The line in question is:

Hpwm.keyboardFocusPolicy: explicit

   I'm not sure if the "iconStyle" is a DECW$WINMGR thing or if it's supported
across all window-managers.  Assuming that it is a standard WM attribute,
the line would look like:

Hpwm.iconStyle: 2

   (I think 2 is the small icons -- try different values)

					-mjg

   Is there any way to tell hpwm that I want the pointer style to not change
(a) inside the actual window, and (b) even in the hpwm resize-margins?


   BTW -- bug report:

   If you have a VAXnotes DECwindows client running, open a conference and
iconize the work-in-progress box, sometimes the WM decoration for the
window is not deleted, and you can de-iconize the work-in-progress box into
an "empty" window.  If you leave it open and then cause another work-in-progress
box to be created, it'll reuse the shell on the screen, but if you leave
the empty shell iconized, it'll create a new work-in-progress anyways.

   Also, raise-on-focus doesn't work if you have the caps lock key active.

					-mjg

re: b)  --> Try

Hpwm.resizeCursors:                    False

This reduces a lot of flicker.

Jatin

    
    Another twist. When I start HPWM automatically by using the
    "DECW$WINMGREXE" logical, executing the things off the command menus
    doesn't work. The process seems to have enough PRCLM. Anyone know why
    this should be happening ?
    
    Trevor

I think this may be due to not having a CLI in the process.

When I fire off HPWM via Spawn both the application invocation and the
restart functions work.

When I fire off HPWM via Run/Proc, neither works.

Seems like DECW$loginout needs to be changed to put a CLI in the process it
fires off the window manager in.

    Re: RUN_HPWM (as in .40). Grab a new copy.
    For everyone else, you can take ufp::sys$Kits:[hpwm]hpwm.com and
    run_Hpwm.exe. Put hpwm.com in sys$manager and make run_hpwm.exe your
    default window manager (by adding the following line after the
    decwindows startup):
    $ DEFINE/TABLE=DECW$LOGICAL_NAMES/EXEC DECW$WINMGREXE-
    	 SYS$SYSTEM:RUN_HPWM.EXE
    
    What this program does is run the window manager with a CLI so that
    the popup menus can execute programs..
    	-Rick

I have a VUE command that just fires off CHILD to set up a decterm and SET HOST
to another system.  Now with HPWM, the second and subsequent windows created
this way seem to be "stuck" to the VUE window, and when you shrink one, they
all shrink.  When you shring VUE, they all shrink together, etc.  For some 
reason the first window I created this way is ok.

?

							-Jeff

    Just for informational purposes on the DEC window manager
    regarding cycling through windows:
    
    Moving through all icons with a double click will
    cycle through windows.  It could be a bit faster,
    but it does the job.

    I've seen the problem with the VUE icon "owning" other windows
    (especially Notes), and the only way that I've been able to fix it is
    via the "Restart wmgr" selection in the root window popup menu; once I
    do this, everything works as expected (at least until I have to restart
    the WM again, that is...)
    
    All in all, HPWM gets my vote...
    
    /Harley

    RUN_HPWM doesn't cut it on a T5.2 system, it continually crashes the
    decterm controller.
    
    Can you give me an OBJ to rebuild?
    
    Andy

I ran into a case of a greedy icon yesterday.  I hadn't seen it before, and I
haven't seen it since.

Normally, I've been moving all my icons after startup, into a rectangle up in
the middle right of the screen (even though HPWM lays them out in a right to
left line at the bottom).  I never had any trouble with greedy icons.

Then, I decided to be lazy one time when I logged in, and leave the icons at
the bottom.  I set host over to a cluster and started up a remote DECterm with
child.  No DECterm showed up.  "Hmmm," I thought, "that's odd... well, maybe it
somehow showed up under another icon?" (even though that shouldn't be possible).
So I expanded NOTES (whose icon was in the lower right corner).  I got not only
my NOTES window... but also the DECterm window.  Both were indeed attached to
the same icon.

I killed the DECterm, moved the NOTES icon, and tried again.  No matter what I
did, the DECterm kept getting snapped up by the NOTES icon.  I finally killed
the session and logged in again... and this time moved my icons to their normal
place above the default icon locations.  I created my remote DECterm again, and
got the normal DECterm icon at the lower right.

So... two interesting questions for those who've seen greedy icons:

1) is the "greedy icon" at the default first location for icons?

2) is the "stolen application window" run remotely?

	/dave

My greedy icon always seems to be FileView.  However, I've noticed it
*much* less if I keep one task output window around and iconified.

Still might just be superstition though!

Regards,

                 == ken miller ==

DECdecision's first window invariably becomes greedy icon eating all other
component's icons.

Jatin

I've seen greedy icons a bunch of times but again, only with VUE.

How about the invisible icon?  Have any of you seen this?  Every once in a 
while, HPWM becomes convinced that one of the icon locations in "the grid"
really has an icon, although one is not displayed.  When it's in this state,
you cannot move an icon onto this location.  If you try, the icon just snaps
back to its original location.  Restarting the window manager seems to be
the only cure...

    RE: .60
    
    This is getting confusing.  I believe the greedy icon
    issue is referring to HPWM?  
    
    

re .-1

Yup, the "greedy icons" happen with HPWM.

re .-2

I've seen :^) the invisible icons, too.

I like HPWM enough that I'll put up with these rogue icons...

/Harley

	When you have HPWM running on a server as opposed to running
	on the workstation decw$xdefaults seems to be ignored.

	HPWM.RC is taken. Both files are in my sys$login (decw$user_
	defaults) on the server node.

	Any clues?

	Peter is confused.

re: .-1

Name the file DECW$XDEFAULTS.DAT on the client()! to be HPWM.DAT

Jatin

Thanks, Jatin, on behalf of Peter and myself.  That did it!

I love this window manager.  It's alot more flexible and extensible than
the standard one.

Jeff.

Are there (Or will there be) resource names so that the icons can be placed in
some specific location on the screen... (I know about Hpwm.iconPlacement) and
thats what I want to use if it's unspecified, maybe something like 
Hpwm.DECW$BANNER.icon.x and Hpwm.DECW$BANNER.icon.y

I really like this window manager, especially the root window menu...

Another bug report:

I think this relates to having played around with mumble.initialState: 3.
It seems that there are problems when a client with initialState 3 creates
and tears down windows.  A fairly reproducible case is if you say mail*.initalState:3
for example.  Now all windows start up as icons, event the read and create
windows.  Ok, so you un-iconize them and then close them.  Oops...the
frame stays there.  (Is this the same as Darrell's problem?)

Also, there seems to be less reproducible problems if you start any
window in initialState 3.  For example, I have now specified only the
mail main window to start iconized, but after a few times of creating
messages, when the create window should be created, instead, mail dies
and the window manager goes into an infinite loop paging wildly.

Burns

Another ugly bug.  When I start Decwindows EVE, it puts it's window up on the
screen, and then the window immediately starts shrinking, one line at a time,
until EVE finally complains that the window is too small.  I'm about ready
to say screw this...


Also I think ugly is the watchword for HPWM.  I mean, it looks like the window
borders on my screen have been taken over by a Radio Shack color computer.  The
nearly illegible font used in the icon titles when they are not "brightened" is 
inexcusable.

Also, I find that it takes a great deal of imagination to see any "3d" effect 
at all.  Obviously whoever did this didn't take 1/10 the time that we did to
make our window manager look sharp.

On the LaF:
   The default settings are in fact truly ugly, but with reasonable
   customization the LaF is far superior to the DECW$Winmgr. I've
   permanently switched over, even though I have to live with a lot
   of problems and rough edges. I think OSF made a good choice. There's
   nothing extraordinary in my Xdefaults, just most of the stuff
   others have proposed with some tweaks.

On the loop:
   Yeah! I see this one too, and more than a few times a day. I have
   to run over to a teminal and quick log in before it eats all of
   the page file space and wedges the whole machine. I hadn't made the
   connection to initialState:3 windows though. Any chance of a fix soon?

On the need for a CLI
   I tried using Run_HPWM and it simply doesn't work for me. All it
   seems to do is set the process name of whatever process it runs in to
   "RunHpwm" and sits there in LEF state like a dead tree. Has anyone
   else gotten this to work? If so, could you post details. BTW: I'm
   running vanilla 5.1

On colormaps:
   The colormap handling doesn't seem right. If I fire up XPASTE, all of
   the windows owned by HPWM get their colors pooched. This includes the
   root window and all of the icons. All of my other windows are OK though.
   I tried setting colormapFocus: pointer, but that did not change the
   behavior. When I terminate XPASTE, things return to normal. Any
   suggestions?

On iconImageForeground:
   This resource seems to be a no-op. No matter what I set it to,
   the pixmap foreground of my icon images stays black. Bug? Unimplemented?
   

    There have been alot of comparisons with HPWM and
    DECW$WINMGR,  but not much has been said about
    HPWM .vs. UWM.  Many notes back,  UWM was "in".
    
    How does it compare?  

I too could not see the 3d effect. Of course, I run normally on a monochrome
VSII. I finally went a tried it on a color GPX, and the 3d effect is quite
noticable, and quite nice. Pushing a button like the shrink-to-icon button
and you see the button depress into the screen. Looks like HPWM is optimized for
color only...

RE: .69

You really need a colour/greyscale system. It does look pretty bad on a 
monochrome system. The resources that Jon Callas posted a while back in
this sequence should work well.

Trevor

if you do not have a color system, use

*.*shadow:: on [or off]

depending on the kind of vission that you have (tunnel?) ;-)

Kris..

I've been trying to start this on my 14 Meg monochrome VS2000, VMS V5.1.  
HPWM.EXE and RUN_HPWM.EXE are in SYS$SYSTEM, HPWM.COM is in SYS$MANAGER.
This is the log file (HPWM.LOG) that I get:

XIO: non-translatable vms error code: 0x2DBA002, vms message:
%decw-e-cnxabort, connection aborted
%XLIB-F-IOERROR, xlib io error
%TRACE-F-TRACEBACK, symbolic stack dump follows
module name     routine name                     line       rel PC    abs PC

                                                           00078F62  00078F62
                                                           000796BC  000796BC
                                                           000751DF  000751DF
                                                           0014D243  0014D243
                                                           00135193  00135193
WMINITWS        InitWorkspace                    8686      0000008E  0003B2CE
WMMAIN          Main                             7077      00000034  0003C3C0
  SYSTEM       job terminated at  4-APR-1989 11:41:49.37

  Accounting information:
  Buffered I/O count:          207      Peak working set size:   825
  Direct I/O count:             36      Peak page file size:    5283
  Page faults:                 787      Mounted volumes:           0
  Charged CPU time:     0 00:00:06.19   Elapsed time:     0 00:00:17.59

Since this leaves me without a window manager, I then create a CHILD DECterm
logged into the SYSTEM account and do an MCR HPWM -- same result (I've tried
various DISPLAY settings, including /TRANSPORT=LOCAL and 
/NODE=MOIRA/TRANSPORT=DECNET).

Any suggestions?

	-Neil

    re: .60 (greedy icons) Fixed in the next release of HPWM? Or Vue :-)
            at least you've given me a hint on where to look..
    re: .68 (wm loops when initialState:3) .. that may help too.
            I'm going to give it a try and see if I can cause the loop.
    re: .69 (Eve resize bug) yup.. I've seen it, and can't figure out
            what causes that... very strange.
    	-Rick

    Oh yeah... one more. If RUN_HPWM hangs something is *very* fishy.
    I've copied the source and object to UFP::SYS$KITS:[HPWM]. It's
    written in bliss.. and does nothing other than a $creprc call.
    That shouldn't hang.. 
    	-Rick

re .60
No, "developer confused" as Nancy said.
I thought you were talking about a problem with the dec wm.
I'll delete my note so as not to cause more confusion.

    We have seen the DECwindows EVE resize problem stated in .69 in the
    past but haven't seen it in quite awhile.  We think we fixed it.  So,
    what version of DECwindows EVE are you running and can you give details
    about how you exercise the bug.  (This is best done by mail or through
    the TPU_BUGS conference on EVETPU.)
    
                                August G. Reinig

    re: .77 (and whatever the original reply was...)
    
    The same thing happened to me when I accidentally copied the .COM file
    to sys$common:[sysexe] instead of sys$common:[sysmgr].  Perhaps this is
    your problem...
    
    							Michael

    Ive heard that after taking down HPWM,  DECW$WINMGR
    doesnt start correctly.  I wonder what HPWM leaves
    behind?  Or doesn't leave behind?
    
    (Window managers are supposed to set properties
    such that any window manager can be re-started -
    ICCCM)
    
    Run DECW$WINMGR,  take it down, restart DECW$WINMGR
    	everything works fine.
    
    RUN DECW$WINMGR,  take it down,  restart UWM, take it down,
    restart DECW$WINMGR -- everthing works fine also.
    
    RUN DECW$WINMGR, take it down, restart HPWM, take it down,
    restart DECW$WINMGR - it does not work fine.
    		
    					- N

What do you mean by not start correctly?  [I never use dxwm myself...]

HPWM leaves behind a bunch of ICCCM properties on the windows and that's
about it.  It also sets the MIN/MAX icon hints property.  Would this 
cause dxwm problems?

    Re: "What do you mean by not start correctly?"
    
    All I've had reported to me is "Decw$winmgr isn't
    able to start up after running HPWM".
    
    MIN/MAX icon hints property (you mean XSetIconsizes right?),
    shouldn't affect it.
    
    If HPWM has internal data structures and forgets to
    update the server (i.e. xchangeproperty), any other
    window manager will run into problems when it starts up.
    
    I dont know first hand that this is happening with HP.
    Has anybody noticed anything unusual after restarting
    DEC's window manager?

Well, I decided to give HPWM another try.  The "vanilla" state, without any
Xdefaults customizations, really bites the big one.  However, using some of
the customizations posted here, in particular, changing that ratty font and
adding some color to the thing, really makes a BIG difference.  I like it,
particularly the menu stuff.

I'm having a problem with input focus, though.  My DECW$XDEFAULTS.DAT says:

	Hpwm.keyboardFocusPolicy: explicit

but I can't seem to get focus to move properly.  DefaultButtonBindings in
HPWM.RC says:

	<Btn1Down>	frame	f.focus_key

and indeed, if I click MB1 while over the border of a window, that window gets
highlighted.  However, the window doesn't receive any key events unless the
pointer is in the body of the window!  I have to click explicitly on the window
body (which for text widgets and DECterms causes it to do a keyboard grab) to
get focus to stay there.  This is really the worst of both worlds--I have to
click explicitly on a window **and** move the pointer into it for it to take
keyboard focus.

--PSW

One other thing that I miss from the DECW window manager is the display of the
full icon title.  The icon title for Calendar has the time of day in it.  I
have to run both clock and calendar now, whereas before calendar told me the
time of day.

--PSW

HPWM-controlled windows don't honor the pointer style and colors that I
selected via the Session Manager.  Also, the thing comes up VERY slowly when
run via RUN_HPWM.EXE.  I have to fix fish so it doesn't die if there's no
window manager present.

--PSW

   Yeah, I've noticed similar problems.

   I find the most reliable way to get focus into a window is to (1) have the
CAPS LOCK off, and (2) click in the window proper, not the border.  It looks
like HPWM isn't properly sending the focus events to the shell.  If the
caps lock state is active (or whatever the proper term is) things just usually
don't work right in HPWM.

   And I agree 100% with the titles.  I tried changing the labeling style on
the icons to the "activetitle" style (or whatever the parameter name was), and
the titles look better (they're complete, right under the icon in what looks
like a pushbutton,) but they're only present when the icon is "active",
which isn't what I wanted, and with the way my setups are now, instead of a
single click assigning focus to the icon window and a double opening it, a
single click opens the icon to full size thus preventing the "activetitle" from
showing up.

   I've all these DECterms which just say "DECterm", and I had just gotten
used to them being numbered in the icon box.  My calendar doesn't have the
date/time, and DECW_QUOTE just says "No New M".

   I'll live with the "greedy" icons and other weirdnesses, if only to get
rid of the godawful icon box tho'.

					-mjg

    There seems to be a bug in highliting the window that has input focus.
    The windows gets highlited when curcosr is moved to the border or
    title bar (Hpwm.keyboardFocusPolicy: pointer) but the input focus
    is actually given only if the cursor is inside the window.
    
    	Pekka
    

  Couple more bugs:

  Using the function f.quit on an application terminates the application.
  Using it on a terminal session terminates the DECterm controller process
  and ALL terminal processes attached to the Controller die...

  Some of the graphics applications confuse the window manager enormously
  Specifically, when I use Ken Berkuns Mandelbrot program from the notes
  file DW_Examples, note #126 the window manager looses track of which mouse
  button I pressed and it will decide to 'move' ala MB2 when I use MB1 on the
  'DefaultSystemMenu'

  The resource  file doesn't appear to like comments such as /* inside a Menu
  definition */ although C style comments work wrapped around a definition.

  I like this Window Manager enormously, there are things from the IconBox
  that I miss, but I find HPWM signifigantly easier to use It would be nice
  though to be able to modify it interactivly though... and not have to restart
  it each time I make a change

     Jan

    .85
    	To increase the size of the icon try following.
    
    Hpwm.iconImageMaximum:                  150x50
    !Hpwm.iconImageMinimum:                 32x32
    
    	I had a same problem with time not showing up in the icon, with
    	above it will show the time.
    Robert

Re: .-1:

   Won't the icons always be HUGE then?

   What I really want are "shrink wrapped" icons which are exactly as large
as the bitmap set in them, and the labels underneath fitting just to the
text.

   Maybe I'll play with the code sometime.


						-mjg

    -1:
    	You'r right, icons will be HUGE, however i don't use images in
    	icons just the text.
    
    !Hpwm.iconDecoration:              image label
    Hpwm.iconDecoration:                    label
    
    	I know this does not answer your question but it's a short term
    	solution till some one tells how to do what you are asking..
    Robert
                

Regarding, things like xtime or Calendar and small text areas, 
you can try:

Hpwm*iconDecoration:	image active

Then when you move your mouse pointer into the icon, the text
description expands to show the entire text.

Try it.

Fred

    
    Anybody else noticed that HPWM handles modal dialog boxes differently?
    They don't stay on top, which is either a bug or a feature, depending
    on your point of view.  Unfortunately, since there's no title bar on a
    modal dialog box, clicking on the box won't bring it back to the top.
    

    re .94:
    
    If you set up your hpwm.rc file properly, you can make clicking on the
    box bring it to the top.
    
    	Jon

re:     Anybody else noticed that HPWM handles modal dialog boxes 
           differently?    They don't stay on top, which is either a bug or a feature

Hacking prevails to be more *conformant* to the style guide...Isn't that
a switch?

The following in my HPWM.RC allows me to <alt>MB2 in a window to
 bring it to the top:

Meta<Btn2Down>          icon|window     f.raise

Regards,

          == ken miller ==

The behavior of the XUI window manager and modal dialog boxes stems from
the pseudo-root that the XUI WM uses.  Since the modal dialog boxes are
children directly of the root, and all windows with title bars are children 
of a child of the root, the stacking order of the modal boxes is always
higher.

I believe that XUI WM implemented without the pseudo root would exhibit the
same behavior as HPWM.

jake

	I really like the HPWM.  I'm having problem when using it with 
remote DECW mail though.  I get continual error messages like this:

%XLIB-E-ERROREVENT, error event received from server
X error event received from server: BadDrawable - parameter not a Pixmap or Window
  Failed request major op code 76 X_ImageText8
  Failed request minor op code 0 (if applicable)
  ResourceID 0x5001d0 in failed request (if applicable)
  Serial number of failed request 10234
  Current serial number in output stream 10238

	Eventually the window manager either hangs or crashes.  Also I notice
that when I run HPWM by redefining the DECW$WINMGREXE logical and starting
the session over, I can't get the root menu commands to work.  When I just
spawn the HPWM everything works fine.

FYI:

Hpwm.iconStyle:                         0

gets you smaller icons, about 1 3/4" x 1"

/D

I think back in this note somewhere it was explained that when you just
define the logical to point at a new window mananger, there is not DCL
image, which means that you can't spawn.  Thus any root menu items which
want to spawn something will fail.  The solution was also mentioned in
here somewhere:  It should be something like running loginout, but I can't
remember how you manage to get the appropriate DCL command to loginout
to have it run the window manager.  Do a dir through this note.

Burns

    RE: .83
    
    I QARed a problem a few months ago about the inability to restart the
    DECwindows window manager when there are many, many, toplevel windows
    mapped on the display.
    
    The QAR is #721 in the V5 database.
    
    Kevin

    Small nit -- the QAR was submitted during March.
    
    Do you mean to say that QAR #721 is a result
    of running HPWM,  taking down HPWM, then
    restarting DECW$WINMGR?
            
    I had no idea this is how to reproduce your problem.
    
    

    I sent you mail; the problem doesn't have to do with running HPWM, it
    has to do with stopping DECW$WINMGR and then restarting it.
    
    Kevin

    When I am using HPWM as the window manager and try to run solitaire -
    either from a DECterm or from the root menu it comes up in BW mode.
    
    Does anyone know what needs done to fix it?

    I'll bet you're on a four plane system right?  Well, HPWM tries to
    allocate around 15 to 20 colors - colors which solitaire is not
    interested in.  If you were start solitaire first and then HPWM,
    solitaire could allocate all the colors it needs before HPWM grabs the
    rest of the available colormap entries.

    I fixed this problem by setting all the makeColors resources in HPWM.DAT
    to "shadow" or "none".   This seems to keep HPWM from allocating so many
    colors.

    Tracy

    Yep, its a 2000/GPX. I'll try your suggestions. Thanks.

          <<< ELKTRA::NOTESPUBLIC:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DW_EXAMPLES.NOTE;1 >>>
                           -< "DECwindows examples" >-
================================================================================
Note 151.0        mb2 popup menu on root window (customizable)        No replies
RAB::DESAI "Jatin Desai"                             37 lines   8-MAY-1989 19:02
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Inspired by good old UIS and HPWM, I wrote an application to display a popup
menu when you press MB2 on an empty portion of your screen. No icons or any
windows shows up on the screen until you press MB2. Also works when the window
manager dies! The menu and commands are defined in UIL. So If you need to
customize it, just modify the UIL, compile and there you go, you don't need
to change the program.

To try it, copy the following files.

   $ COPY REGAL""::SYS$CS6:[DESAI.PUBLIC]ROOTMENU.EXE * ! .C and .OBJ too
   $ COPY REGAL""::SYS$CS6:[DESAI.PUBLIC]ROOTMENU.UID * ! .UIL to customize
   $ !
   $ run rootmenu

Make sure that the ROOTMENU.UID file exists in the current default directory.
Or, if you are picky:-), just do something like -

   $ define rootmenu tools:rootmenu.uid
   $ run rootmenu

Now just press MB2 on a blank portion of your screen and away you go.

Customization:

   I would think most people would like to tailor the menu and commands to
   their liking. Just edit the file ROOTMENU.UIL make necessary changes to the
   popup menu hierarchy and compile (UIL) the file. Just make sure that
   activate callback specifies the command to be executed when any button is
   chosen. The program just does a lib$spawn (on VMS) of this command string,
   so if you run processes detached, you may have to write invoke command
   file. If some one modifies this to run on ultrix, I will incorporate the
   changes (should be minimal).

Enjoy!

Jatin

With a "root window menu" application, and the "cycle" application, it
brings up the interesting possibility that there shouldn't be a singe
window manager process, but a collection of unrelated window management
utilities that do various useful things, and you can (figuratevely
speaking) throw together into a basket and use as your window manager.

Jeff,

It may be (probably is) reasonable to separate the root menu application
from other window manager activities.  It is probably not a good idea to
break up the real window manager activities into separate clients.  The
cycle application is a perfect example of why.  It can very easily mess up
the behavior of the client doing the other pieces of the window manager
task (esp. if the other piece doesn't know that cycle is out there).  A
much more appropriate approach is a very customizable window manager (like
the Bull window manager) which allows you to select how to do your look and
feel.

Dick

Question:

The Icon's for everything but Mail use the window defaults, and the little 
pictures in the icons look just fine.

Mail, on the other hand, has this big black box in it.  Nothing else.

Any idea?  Is this a HPWM problem, or a Mail problem?


-bill

With mine I get a white box for mail.  But same thing.  I have also
seen some applications make appropriate use of the icon color resources.
Any idea what is different between those that use icon color and those
that don't?

	Mail creates a pixmap and sets it with XtSetValues on the shell
	widget - nothing fancy there, I don't see why HPWM should have
	trouble with that (as a matter of fact, it didn't when I tried
	HPWM a few weeks ago - I got the regular icon).

	Mike

When I first started using HPWM full-time, I had frequent problems with the MAIL
icon... it would come up blank.  Not always, but frequently.  Usually (but not
always) if I killed the process and restarted it, it would be OK.

Eventually, the problem just went away.  I haven't seen it for weeks.  I STILL
have more problems with MAIL than with anything else, however.  99% of the time
when HPWM blows up on me, it's immediately after I hit the REPLY button on
MAIL's read window.  I won't even try to guess whether MAIL's doing something
HPWM might consider "odd", or whether it's pure coincidence...

	/dave

re: .111

I guessed that you set it with XtSetValues, but how do you create the pixmap?
Do you #include a bitmap file or use UIL?  What do you do for foreground and
background (or are you creating a bitmap?)?

How about other applications besides mail?  esp. those that get icon colors to
work, like DECW$CALENDAR, DECW$BOOKREADER, DECW$CARDFILER, DECW$CLOCK, dxmail?

Dick

	We #include the bitmaps, and use BlackPixelOfScreen and 
	WhitePixelOfScreen to get the foreground and background colors.
	Nothing unusual there (and we certainly don't touch the
	icons when Reply is hit).

	Mike

Actually, the cardfiler, clock, calculator and puzzle do slight the wrong thing
but doubt it would make a difference (famouse last words).  My set did a
BlackPixel (dpy, 0) instead of BlackPixel (dpy, ScreenNumber) and had problems
with icons on Multihead.  Perhaps there is a problem with the DefaultScreen
call.

Neal

Neal,

How about a code frag from the clock, including how you get the bitmap
data, how you make a pixmap/bitmap from it and how you set it on the window?
If you don't want a public post, how about mailing it?

Dick

  I would also be interested in a code frag.

				-=> Jim <=-

	I eventually had to stop using HPWM due to having it die while
I was using mail.  I run mail on the cluster and display on my workstation
and had noticed that right before HPWM would hang and then later die, the
terminal window on the cluster that I had spawned mail from would have 
some messages like "error setting input focus" and "window manager confused".
I discovered that if I keep a read and send window active (as opposed to
closing them when I'm done), HPWM dies less frequently.  I find it difficult
to work that way though, and since mail is one of my primary tools, I decided
to wait until things stabilize a bit.  I really do prefer the HPWM though and
wish I could use it.

	We've got a pre-V2 internal baselevel available now - see note
	5.last in KOALA::DW-MAIL. I suggest you wait a couple more days
	before installing it, we're going to release a new baselevel with
	a few bug fixes any day now. If any of you seeing problems between
	HPWM and Mail install this baselevel, please send me mail and let
	me know if things work better with it.

	Mike

Widget	toplevel;
Widget	top_wid;


#define clock_width 32
#define clock_height 32
#define clock_x_hot 0
#define clock_y_hot 0
static char clock_bits[] = {
   0xff, 0xff, 0xff, 0xff, 0x01, 0x00, 0x00, 0x80, 0xfd, 0xff, 0xff, 0xbf,
   0x05, 0x00, 0x00, 0xa0, 0x05, 0xc0, 0x01, 0xa0, 0x05, 0xc0, 0x01, 0xa0,
   0x05, 0xc0, 0x01, 0xa0, 0x05, 0x0c, 0x18, 0xa0, 0x05, 0x0c, 0x18, 0xa0,
   0x05, 0x00, 0x00, 0xa0, 0x05, 0x00, 0x00, 0xa0, 0x85, 0x01, 0xb0, 0xa1,
   0x85, 0x01, 0x98, 0xa1, 0x05, 0x18, 0x0c, 0xa0, 0x05, 0x30, 0x06, 0xa0,
   0x75, 0x60, 0x03, 0xae, 0x75, 0xc0, 0x01, 0xae, 0x75, 0x80, 0x00, 0xae,
   0x05, 0x00, 0x00, 0xa0, 0x05, 0x00, 0x80, 0xa1, 0x85, 0x01, 0x80, 0xa1,
   0x85, 0x01, 0x00, 0xa0, 0x05, 0x00, 0x00, 0xa0, 0x05, 0x0c, 0x18, 0xa0,
   0x05, 0x0c, 0x18, 0xa0, 0x05, 0xc0, 0x01, 0xa0, 0x05, 0xc0, 0x01, 0xa0,
   0x05, 0xc0, 0x01, 0xa0, 0x05, 0x00, 0x00, 0xa0, 0xfd, 0xff, 0xff, 0xbf,
   0x01, 0x00, 0x00, 0x80, 0xff, 0xff, 0xff, 0xff};

#define sm_clock_width 17
#define sm_clock_height 17
static char sm_clock_bits[] = {
   0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0xfe, 0xff, 0x00, 0x02, 0x81, 0x00, 0x02, 0x81, 0x00,
   0x42, 0x84, 0x00, 0x02, 0x80, 0x00, 0x12, 0x94, 0x00, 0x82, 0x82, 0x00,
   0x0e, 0xe1, 0x00, 0x02, 0x80, 0x00, 0x12, 0x90, 0x00, 0x02, 0x80, 0x00,
   0x42, 0x84, 0x00, 0x02, 0x81, 0x00, 0x02, 0x81, 0x00, 0xfe, 0xff, 0x00,
   0x00, 0x00, 0x00};



/* routine to make a pixmap stolen from session mgr */
static Pixmap MakePixmap(dpy, root, data, width, height) 
Display *dpy;
Drawable root;
short *data;
Dimension width, height;
{
    Pixmap pid;
    unsigned long	ScreenNumber;

    ScreenNumber = XDefaultScreen (dpy);

    pid = XCreatePixmapFromBitmapData (dpy, root, data,
		(Dimension) width, (Dimension) height, 
		(unsigned long) BlackPixel (dpy, ScreenNumber),
		(unsigned long) WhitePixel (dpy, ScreenNumber),
		(unsigned int) DefaultDepth (dpy, ScreenNumber));
    return(pid);
}


#ifdef COMBINE
clock_main(argc, argv)
#else
main(argc, argv)
#endif
    int argc;
    char **argv;
{
    Arg	args [6];
    int	xtnumber;
    int stat;
    Display *dpy;
    Pixmap icon_pixmap, sm_icon_pixmap;

    DwtInitializeDRM ();

    stat = DwtRegisterClass (DRMwcUnknown, "clock_widget",
	"DwtMyClockCreate", DwtMyClockCreate,  clockwidgetclass);
    if (stat == DRMFailure)
    	{ fprintf (stderr, "Can't register clock \n"); exit (ERROR_STATUS); }

    toplevel = XtInitialize (APPL_NAME, CLASS_NAME, NULL, 0, &argc, argv);

    dpy = XtDisplay (toplevel);
    top_wid = (Widget) DwtMyClock (toplevel, APPL_NAME, 200, 300, 150, 110);

    XtManageChild (top_wid);

    icon_pixmap = MakePixmap (dpy, XDefaultRootWindow (dpy),
		clock_bits, clock_width, clock_height);

    sm_icon_pixmap = MakePixmap (dpy, XDefaultRootWindow (dpy),
       		sm_clock_bits, sm_clock_width, sm_clock_height);

    xtnumber = 0;
    XtSetArg (args [xtnumber],  XtNiconPixmap, icon_pixmap); xtnumber++;
    XtSetArg (args [xtnumber],  XtNiconifyPixmap, sm_icon_pixmap); xtnumber++;
    XtSetArg (args [xtnumber],  XtNcopyright, TRUE); xtnumber++;
    XtSetArg (args [xtnumber],  XtNallowShellResize, TRUE); xtnumber++;
    XtSetValues (toplevel, args, xtnumber);

    XtRealizeWidget (toplevel, 0, NULL);

    XtMainLoop ();
}

	It appears from information HPWM users have given us that it
	doesn't respond gracefully when the client gets a BadMatch
	error on X_SetInputFocus. I found that in bringing up a
	send window we were setting focus to the send window twice,
	which may very well be the cause of those BadMatch errors.
	The extra call has been removed - when V2 hits internal field
	test, I'd appreciate it if those of you seeing the problems
	with Mail and HPWM let me know if you still see problems.

	Of course, the fact that HPWM dies so easily is a bug in HPWM -
	how does one report HPWM bugs?

	Mike

A quick question, who's responsible or in charge of working on MOTIF within
DIGITAL?

The DECtoolkit group will be in charge of delivering Motif to VMS and Ultrix
once a decision is made on when and how to deliver it.

Leo

What is the current time-schedule for the VMS version of MOTIF?  Is there 
going to be any external field-testing ?

Thanks,
-Pratish

There is no time schedule yet.  Planning is taking place...

Leo

I've scanned this thread and can't find out specifically how does a 
DECwindows neophyte like myself installs it?

Can anyone help?

Thanks,

Jeff
	

There is no Motif "kit" available yet.  There is a window manager around which
is the HP window manager, based on HP widgets.  It is not the Motif window
manager, and does not use the Motif toolkit.

I suspect that Motif will become generally available when the VMS and Ultrix
releases that will support it go to FT.  As noted by Leo, there is no schedule
for this yet, but we are spending a fair amount of time working on it.

jake

    An updated version of the HP window manager that fixes the sticky icon
    problem is located in:
    	UFP::SYS$KITS:[HPWM]HPWM.EXE
    This version also fixes a WM crash when a window is quickly created
    then destroyed.
    	-Rick

    Really nice!  All the problems that have affected me in the past are
    gone.

    Here it comes now :-)

    Is there any way though to get the ICON pictures back instead of the
    stylized "X" in the ICONs?  All I can seem to get is the shadowed "X".

                Dave

You probably need some parameter or other; I tried the new version, and have 
icon pictures. The extensions I have in DECW$XDEFAULTS.DAT follow (I have
absolutely no ideas which are defaults, which are necessary, and which are
bogus...). You probably need the "Hpwm.iconDecoration: label image" line.


!
! Resources for the HP window manager (black and white monitor)
!
!
Hpwm*activeBackground:			Black
Hpwm*activeBackgroundTile:       	background
Hpwm*activeBottomShadowColor:    	White
Hpwm*activeBottomShadowTile:	 	foreground
Hpwm*activeForeground:			White
Hpwm*activeTopShadowColor:	 	White
Hpwm*activeTopShadowTile:	 	50_foreground
Hpwm*background:                 	White
Hpwm*backgroundTile:             	White
Hpwm*borderColor:			black
Hpwm*borderWidth:			8
Hpwm*bottomShadowColor:          	Black
Hpwm*bottomShadowTile:           	foreground
Hpwm*configFile: 			sys$login:hpwm.rc
Hpwm*focusAutoRaise:            	True
Hpwm*font:	-Bigelow & Holmes-MENU-MEDIUM-R-NORMAL--*-120-*-*-P-*-ISO8859-1
Hpwm*iconFont:  -Bigelow & Holmes-MENU-MEDIUM-R-NORMAL--*-120-*-*-P-*-ISO8859-1
Hpwm*foreground:                 	Black
Hpwm*makeActiveColors:           	shadow
Hpwm*makeColors:                 	shadow
Hpwm*resizeBorderWidth:                 8
Hpwm*topShadowColor:             	White
Hpwm*topShadowTile:              	50_foreground
Hpwm.iconDecoration:                    label image
Hpwm.iconImageMaximum:                  80X32
Hpwm.iconImageMinimum:                  16X16
Hpwm.iconPlacement:                     top right pack
Hpwm.internalBevel:			4
Hpwm.keyboardFocusPolicy:               explicit
Hpwm.menu.backgroundTile:		background
Hpwm.transientDecoration:               Title resize

    I'm not sure why your icons are the default "X" ones, particularly if
    you've used HPWM before with correct results. What sort of system?
    (In particular, 4 or 8 plane or mono).
    
    Re: .132:
    
    If you've got a key hit in your HPWM.RC like:
    <Key>F3		window		f.raise
    
    add
    Lock<Key>F3		window		f.raise
    
    And the caps lock problem goes away. You'll need to restart the WM.
    (I agree, it's a crock. I'll look into automagically duplicating the
    grab.)
    	-Rick
    	-Rick

    Re: 132

    I had the Hpwm.iconDecoration resource in my file, but your file
    gave me the hint that I was looking for.  Would you believe that
    my file had "image label" while yours had "label image".  I reversed
    the order of the two words in my file and the ICON pictures work
    great now.  Thanks for posting yours.

             Dave

    There are only two aspects of the HPWM that I would like to change; I'd
    be grateful if anyone knows if / how I can achieve this.
    
    1. I use AutoFocus, and to get the input focus to a specific window, I
    have to click on the title bar. I'd like to be able to click anywhere
    in the window (as in the Digital WM).
    
    2. If I MB1 on the title bar to get the focus, and inadvertently drag
    it moves the window. I would like window moving to be limited to MB2.
    
    Thanks for any help / ideas.
    
    Keith

I copied the new HPWM.EXE to SYS$SYSTEM and redefined DECW$WINMGREXE to point to
it.  When I rebooted the machine it came up with HPWM, but the root window 
pop-up menu doesn't work, nor does the window-menu (upper left corner button).

When I just killed the window manager and ran HPWM from my terminal I didn't
have this problem.  Any ideas ?

						-Jeff

    I've seen this happen when the definition for Hpwm.configFile had a
    logical name in it that didn't yet exist when the window manager
    started up.  The most common form is when SYS$LOGIN is used as in

	Hpwm.configFile:	sys$login:hpwm.rc

    If I changed it to have a full device/directory specification such as

	Hpwm.configFile:	agbear$dua0:[horner]hpwm.rc

    then it worked fine.

              Dave

In your .hpwmrc, the following should make MB1 do focus and MB2
do move:

Buttons DefaultButtonBindings
{
    <Btn1Down>	frame	f.focus_key
    <Btn2Down>  frame   f.move
}

I haven't tested this since I run with real estate focus.
				Jeff

What are the magical incantations to HPWM to get the keyboard to move from
window to window using F5?  I can get the highlighted window to move using F5,
but the keyboard doesn't follow unless the mouse pointer happens to be in the
window being highlighted.

The behavior of VWS would be ideal (windows that don't have keyboards don't
get highlighted, etc.)

The relevant lines from HPWM.RC are as follows:

<Key>F5                         root|icon|window        f.prev_key
Shift<Key>F5                    root|icon|window        f.next_key

-Mike

    RE .139:
    You want it all :-)..
    For focus next/previous moves, you need to turn off keyboard focus.
    Hpwm.keyboardFocusPolicy: explicit will allow your "F5" to work.
    
    Focus handling is using these functions is rotten.. focus goes to icons
    and all sorts of worthless places.
    
    Re: back a few.. the reason you have to click on the titlebar to give
    focus to the window is because HPWM isn't as smart as the DEC window
    manager - it's because the window has a grab posted. The DEC window
    manager does "the right thing:" when you click on the body of the
    window, the DEC WM sets focus and passes on the mouse event. HPWM just
    passes it on.
    	-Rick

    Well, forgive me if this is blatantly obvious to everyone in the known
    universe (except me until recently), but if you are using the HPWM, you
    do not need to run AutoFocus...it can be set up in the HPWM.RC file.
    Now, if you *DO* run AutoFocus as well, you get a very sluggish system.
    
    Believe me, I did too many AUTOGENs trying to fix the performance
    (kudos to one Andy Leslie for spotting the mistake).
    
    Keith, much happier now.

re .140:

>    For focus next/previous moves, you need to turn off keyboard focus.
>    Hpwm.keyboardFocusPolicy: explicit will allow your "F5" to work.
    
I already had that line in DECW$XDEFAULTS.DAT.  F5 will bounce me from window
to window (and icon :-( ), but unless the mouse is located within the window
selected, the keyboard is connected only to a black hole.  Does F5 work for
you if the mouse isn't in the window you just selected?

-Mike

    At the Design Automation Conference, Hewlett-Packard were showing what
    looked like a newer baselevel of HPWM. Autofocus was *really*
    automatic! One just moved the cursor over a window and the focus would
    automatically move to it. No need for any mouse clicks.
    
    A second feature I noticed was that the icon titles were always
    present.

	Has anyone else encountered problems with HPWM and EFT1 of DECwindows 
V2.0? I find that when I run it byt using the customize feature in the session
manager, I can't create DECterms.  I can't get them to "autostart" and I can't
get them to appear when I try to from the application menu.  I notice that
the processes seems to be out there waiting on a local event flag, but there
is no display.  Perhaps this is a discussion best suited for the DECterm 
conference...Oh and when I run HPWM detached it crashes on resize events.  I
monitor this conference regularly and haven't noticed any discussion so my
apolopgies if this is misplaced(it also didn't appear via a DIR/title="DECterm"
or dir/title="problem"/since=4-jul-1989).  If need be, I'll try to get some
error log and QAR it.

       
       
       	Isn't there something in the EFT1 release notes about this? (or
       am I just spoiled cuz I sit on the same floor as the devos?)
       
       	If in doubt tho, QAR it.
       
       							mike

    There is a release note saying it is incompatible. But I think that was
    the IFT version.
    
    Jeff
    

Re: .145

I've received a couple of QARs about the problem, but I don't know much
about it.  As I understand it, HPWM uses InputOnly windows, which the
toolkit/server didn't understand very well.  I thought that problem was
fixed in FT1, though, so this latest problem must be something else.

				-- Bob

    Both of these problems were QARed some time ago.
    	-Rick

Re .11:

What are "f.function" and "f.send_msg" supposed to do?

    I'm running VMS 5.2 SSB with DECWINDOWS V2.0 FT
    and would still like to run HPWM. But it seems to have
    some problems.
    
    o HPWM quits when I resize anything.
    o When I start it from DECW$LOGIN with spawn everything works
      except DECterm never pops up a window (clock does) and the process
      is out there.
    
    Is anyone running on HPWM on DECwindown V2.0 FT?
    
    I think just linking my own copy on my system might to the
    trick. Could the .OBJs and a .COM be made available?
    
    

    If you are running V5.2, then you are also running FT1 of DECwindows.
    These are all known problems with HPWM and FT1, and they have been
    fixed in FT2.  You have to install VMS X5.3 however, to get FT2
    of DECwindows.  Replies .145 and on talk about this.  I know there
    were more replies about this, but for the life of me I can't find them.
    Maybe they were during that week a while back that got lost from this
    conference.

                Dave

    HPWM runs great in X5.3 you don't even have to do the DECW$WINMGREXE
    kluge. You can set the window manager you want in
    SESSION-MANAGER -> CUSTOMIZE -> WINDOW -> WINDOW MANAGER -> OTHER
    But you still need to use RUN_HPWM.EXE rather than HPWM.EXE

    I've copied HPWM.EXE and RUN_HPWM.EXE from UFP, and have changed my
    window manager to "sys$system:run_hpwm.exe" in the customize window
    box.  I saved my changes, and quit my session.  When I start a new
    session, I get *no* window manager, and a HPWM.LOG that reads:
    
    
Error opening primary input file SYS$INPUT
File not found
    
    I have an hpwm.rc, and the appropriate resource in decw$xdefaults.dat
    points to it.  Does anyone know what might be wrong?  I'm running VMS
    X461-5.3 and DW FT2...
    
    Thanks,
    
    Dave
    

    You need the matching RUN_HPWM .COM file too.  RUN_HPWM just creates
    a detached process that requires the .COM file for its SYS$INPUT.  The
    .COM file contains the commands to set up the display and run HPWM.
    I would offer more concrete names, but I changed mine around a bit,
    and they wouldn't match what you would get from UFP.  If you look in
    the same directory on UFP where you got RUN_HPWM, you should be able
    to spot the .COM file pretty easy.

               Dave

    You need one more file, HPWM.COM. This goes in your SYS$MANAGER
    directory and contains:
    
	$ set display/create/node=0/transport=local
	$ run sys$system:hpwm
	$ exit
    
    What's happening is this: RUN_HPWM creates a detached process running
    the image LOGINOUT.EXE, so that the window manager will have a CLI 
    (to support the "f.exec" function). RUN_HPWM specifies HPWM.COM as 
    input file to LOGINOUT. 

    Pretty funny that Dave and I collided on this note, since he sits about
    forty feet away from me...
    
    P.S. As he pointed out to me, Bulova's system time is fast by more than
    an hour. Is the system manager reading this notesfile? I guess Bulova
    isn't an Accutron (:-).

	BULOVA is fixed now.. Yea, I'm not only a noter, I'm a system 
	manager too.. :-) Sorry 'bout the time.. BULOVA is a weird collection
	of hardware and God only knows what goes on with it.. We're hoping
	to make that all better really soon.

							mike