Conference turris::womannotes-v3

I'm sure (though I can't prove it) that you're not the last woman
in the universe who hasn't "done it" by now.  And there's nothing
wrong with not wanting to do it with someone you don't care enough
about.  

Men are taught culturally that one of the things they're supposed to do
early on in a relationship is to have sex. If they don't, then they're not
"real men". If the woman isn't willing, that's taken as a sign that she's
not interested in the person and many men will never try again (and
frequently won't keep the relationship going). Or, as is also common, the
man wasn't particularly interested in a long term relationship and was
primarily interested in getting laid.  

But don't worry - one of these days, some nice young man will come 
along who won't follow the scenario you described and will be 
willing to wait until you're ready (or you'll be ready before he is).

M

    
    The following note is from another memeber of our community who
    wishes to be anonymous.
    
    Bonnie J
    
    =wn= comdod
    ____________________________________________________________________

 Dear .0,

 You're not the only one -- me too, and I'm in my late 20s.

 I have two friends who got married in their mid-20s, and they were
 virgins, too.  Both are enjoying married life quite a lot, they say.
 :-)  My gyn has told me there are more older virgin folk out there than
 the general population thinks...  Statistics say that there are less
 than 15% virgins our age, but that's a lot of people. 

 There's benefits!  We don't have to worry about contraception or pay
 for it or argue about it.  We are less likely to get bladder
 infections and vaginal warts and cysts, etc. We're guaranteed not to
 have STDs. 

 Basically, I'm not going to have sex until I feel happy about it and
 want to with someone.  Nobody I've dated has made me feel "I want to
 have my first experience of sex with you."  That's OK!  I feel really
 good about being in control of what I want to do with my body. There
 are other things to do besides intercourse, and they can be lots of fun! 

 I don't say "I've chosen to be celibate."  I say I've chosen control
 of what happens when.  There WILL be a right time, and place, and
 person ... just not yet.  I'm a slow learner about some things and 
 this is one of the things that is taking me a long time.  Listen to 
 what is right for you and do what is right for you.  My sister, who
has been sexually active since she was 17, is constantly amazed that
 I am _able_ to say to a man that although I would like to kiss him
 and cuddle and, yes, even take off clothes with him (!), I don't want
 to have sex with him.  She is amazed that I am able to say it and
 amazed that they pay attention.  She knows lots more about lovemaking
 than I do, but I know lots more about how to establish personal
 comfort limits with men than she does. 

 There _are_ men out there who will respect your limits.  Some for
 religious reasons, some for cultural reasons and some because they
 feel that sex and love should go together.  These are reasons I have
 heard from boyfriends of mine.  If you're always having wrestling 
 matches, you might want to try talking about it with them openly.
 Make it clear that you are interested in them but that you don't
 feel comfortable with the full physical side of the relationship.  
 If they still disappear or wrestle, try looking for a different type 
 of guy... 

 The hardest thing about not having sex is feeling out of step with
 society.  It's hard telling the gyn.  It's hard telling boyfriends.  
 It's such a shocking thing to admit to these days.  The friend I'm 
 closest to doesn't know I've never had sex, isn't that strange?  It
 would freak her out. 

 But it's my _private_ decision and it's yours, too.  Wait until it 
 feels right and don't worry about what everyone else is doing.  

 Anonymous_2  "it's hard being square in a world full of hippies" :-)

    
    
    There is nothing wrong with being a virgin!!  I wish that society
    would not make an issue of it.  I was until I was in my early 
    twenties.  I was very glad that I waited too.  My first time was
    with the man I am still with today.  We have been together through
    thick and thin for the past four years.  I was in love with him
    when we first made love and I am still in love with him.
    
    He was not a virgin when we started dating.  We waited three months
    before we made love.  It was great!  Personally, I think sex is
    alot of fun!  But one thing that I had a problem with was that
    I was not aware of the different facets of sex.  By that I mean
    that one is to make love and to express your love in a physical
    and spiritual manner.  One is to have sex to satisfy purely
    physical reasons.  Another is to have sex in a playful manner.
    
    I think that most women are taught that having sex is making love.
    Some times it is and other times it is not.  But there is a difference
    and it is great to realize those differences and go with them.
    
    Wait until you find someone you love!  I really does make a difference.
    
    
    Michele

re: .3

Mentioning the gyn reminded me of something. I was thoroughly pissed off when I
found out that the whoozie-whatsis things they put into to hold you open while
they scrape about come in different sizes, and the smallest size is probably
most suitable for virgins. I could have avoided a fair amount of pain, had I
known the first time. If your gyn doesn't ask you, tell them.
	Mez

    I don't think there is anything wrong...  I made sure I was a virgin on
    my wedding night - and I was resolved to be that way no matter HOW old 
    was...  as I tell my teen-aged girls, its the one very precious gift
    that only you can give your new groom on your wedding night...
    
    

.6>       as I tell my teen-aged girls, its the one very precious gift
.6>    that only you can give your new groom on your wedding night...
    
Do they agree? Do they expect to receive the same gift from their
grooms?

Kathy    

    re .6, as I tell my teenage daughter, some men are better in bed
    than others.  Before you marry somebody make sure you like the way
    he does it! 
    
    Lorna
    

    re .6
    
    What does one give a second spouse?
    
    - M

    re .6:
    
    It is of no consequence to either of us that my husband is not
    my "first", but only that he is always to be the *last*!  :-)
    

    RE: .9
    
    hopefuly there isn't a second...
    
    
    But if there is, that can be up for discussion, personally I think a
    Cessna 172 would do :-)...
    
    Gale

    
    Why is giving one's virginity up to one's husband a "precious gift"?
    
    The first time often one of the worst. Especially if both people are
    clueless. I think that my sexual experience and ability to please my
    husband will be a far greater gift then letting him "bust my cherry",
    spill blood all over the sheets and deal with my cries of pain.
    
    I'm not knocking virginity as a personal choice. I always wanted to
    stay one, circumstances did not permit. But I would NOT wait 'til the
    wedding night. (unless perhaps you have a clue as to how good he's
    going to be from the foreplay.) My mom told me pretty much the same
    thing Lorna said; its horrible to find out AFTER the wedding that your
    husband is lousy at, or worse still, disinterested in sex. Especially
    if you've been looking forward to it. And there ARE men like that out
    there. Its a delusion to think that every man who can love can also
    make love.
    
    For some of us, good sex is worth shopping around for!
              

    Mez
    
    Speculum
    
    Bonnie

    I must agree wholeheartedly with .12.  Why is giving one's virginity
    such a precious gift?  And pleasurable lovemaking is something that
    comes with interested practice, and is extremely important to a
    marriage in my opinion.  One of the biggest mistakes for women is to
    beliveve that "love" will conquer all - even poor lovemaking.
    
    This is not to knock virginity, I do believe in waiting for the "right"
    time and the "right" guy to lose your virginity.  But that does not
    have to occur with someone you are madly in love with, or the "true
    love" you've been waiting for, or the person you are marrying.  I thank
    God I didn't marry the guy I first had sex with.  He was immature, as
    was I, and neither of us were ready for marriage.  Sex yes, marriage
    no.  And by the way we were both in our early twenties, and both
    virgins.
    
    I will not perpetuate the "myth" with my children that sex is only for
    after you're married,  and for my daughter that "giving up your
    virginity is the most precious gift" you can give your husband.  I
    don't believe it.  Further, it perpetuates the double standard of sex
    being a male "right", and females being the gatekeepers.
    

    I have only one question:
    Would you buy a hat without trying it on first?
    
    Lori B.

Especially a hat that you're pledging to wear the rest of your life,
exclusively.

Unreal.

C.

    If you want some fun reading go way back and find the orginal
    SOAPBOX and read about Rev. Griffy and myself offering/volunteering
    to make people "born-again" virgins. There was some real good/funny
    reading!!!
    
    REK

    REK
    
    I don't believe that there exist copies of that file any longer.
    
    Bonnie

    RE Gift..

    I went to a seminar at THE WORD OF LIFE last year.  The woman speaker
    was GREAT (I have a tape of her if you'd like to borrow it), and she
    went on to explain how she handles her girls.  

    On their 16th (no, I don't know why she choose 16, you can choose any
    age I guess), and went out and got a regular size box. They then went
    and picked out the prettiest wrapping paper they could find, and the
    prettiest bow. They then bought two cards, and went home and proceeded
    to wrap up the prettiest package one could ever see.  Then then wrote
    out two cards, one was to be a card for the future groom (then unknown)
    to accompany a wedding gift. The other card I forget now what it
    was,  but the mother filled that one out, for her daughter.  The box
    was then given to the daughter, explaining that this box represented
    her virginity. It was hers to give to her husband the night they got
    married. It was to remain on her bed to remind her how important it
    was.  I was pretty impressed with the whole seminar.

    RE: Trying on a lover.  

    I disagree....  I think any two people can learn to be whatever kind of 
    lovers they want to be. It just takes practice, reading, and maybe even 
    therapy if needed, but if the love is there, the sex will follow (just 
    my humble opinion), and think of all the fun you'll have becoming
    perfect :-)...

    Gale, some men are dysfunctional. And not everyone is prepared to deal
    with that. Its something I'd want to know before I got married.
    
    I love to give gifts. I also love to receive them. When you tell me
    what "comparable gift" the man is going to give me in return for my
    never-been-entered vessel, then I'll understand the point a lot better.
    I don't see any great numbers of men holding tight to their virginity.
    And certainly not bragging about it.
    
    I can understand remaining celibate for your own peace of mind, but not
    as a "gift" to a man. Can you clarify, and I will try to accept the
    difference in values?
    
    I guess my big problem is that I'm jumping to the conclusion that the
    woman who is not giving this "gift" to her husband is soiled, or "used
    goods".  Neither the positive nor negative aspects of having/not having
    virginity I'm hearing from you seem to have anything to do with the
    value that the woman feels for herself, but more for what a man will
    think of her; whether he values her. This bothers me a great deal.
    
    Maybe I'm more of a macho slut than I thought...

    re .20, Gale, I completely disagree that any two people can learn to be
    good lovers with each other.  I have had enough lovers to know that
    some people just naturally seem to enjoy doing what other people like,
    and when that happens it's wonderful.  Knowing how good sex can be, I
    cannot imagine ever trying to learn to have good sex with a person I
    don't naturally hit it off with.  I also think that enjoying making
    love with the person is a big part of what makes up a romantic, love
    relationship.  I could certainly never promise to be monogamous with a
    person if I didn't even know yet whether I enjoy having sex with them. 
    I really feel sorry for some women in the past who got married as virgins,
    probably had mediocre sex lives, maybe never even had an orgasms, and
    died without ever having any idea how good sex can be.  I'm so glad I
    grew up in a more enlightened time.  The value of comparative shopping
    is that you get an idea what's out there.  (and some of what's out
    there is pretty dismal, but some of it's pretty good, too)
    
    I don't think there is any value to virginity.  Sex is just something
    people do, and people should do it if they want to, and not do it if
    they don't want to, regardless of the opinions of others.
    
    Lorna
    

You know, it's rare when I'm in =wn= that I suddenly wish for a male's point of
view, but I find myself wondering about men who are given the gift, and how
they feel, and what they get out of it. Is it sexually satisfying? Does it
produce pride of ownership, or is it like the old Star Trek (where no man has
gone before)? And what about all the other sorts of sex a woman can have with
men and women. Like, fingers and candles don't count?
	Mez

    
    I don't know about how men feel about taking virginity, but I'd feel it
    was a gift to me, and it would have told me I was special to the man.
    
    I really think it's kind of sad how men are SUPPOSED to be
    experienced.... because myself and several other women I know have had
    the experience of being in a relationship with a man for several years
    where the man initially states they have had other encounters,
    occasionally describing circumstances, etc....and then finally reveals
    (I guess when they feel it's "safe" to reveal) that we were, in fact,
    their first.  Heck, if I'd have known right off I'd have felt even more
    special about it...and the other women I know would have felt that way,
    too....!
    
    -Jody
    

Isn't there room for everyone?  Some like to remain virgins and some
don't.  Why try to convine each other that their way is better?

I never been with a virgin as far as I know so I can't add any male
perspective...

    I think that if it just happens to turn out that the first person
    somebody has sex with is a very special person for them then that's nice for
    those people.  But, as people get older, everyone just expects that
    everyone they meet has already had sex with previous partners, and I
    don't think that makes future sex any less special.  How many people
    reading this would want to be spending the rest of their lives with the
    first person they ever had sex with?  :-)  (I know I wouldn't!  He was
    a real jerk!  But, I still don't regret it.  It was a "learning
    experience"  :-) and I've had more special partners since.)
    
    Lorna
    

    As far as the "gift" part goes, how can anybody be certain that the
    first time someone (especially a *teenage boy*) chooses to have sex
    that it is a gift, and not simply the first real opportunity!
    
    Lorna
    

    I have to disagree that two people can learn about sex to whatever
    extent it takes to please each other as long as "love" is there.  I was
    in a relationship with a man for four years who suffered from premature
    ejaculation.  Needless to say our sex life was sporadic, and quite
    frankly it really bothered me.  It did not bother him oddly enough.  We
    were quite compatible other than that, but after four years this eroded
    our relationship quite a bit.  He's history.
    
    Yes, there's room enough for virgins and non virgins in this world. 
    But I do not place supreme value on it, I value more the sexual
    compatibility that is so important overall in a good relationship.
    
    I also find it interestign that when we say the word "virgin" we
    automatically (for the most part) think female.  That is what pops into
    MY mind and the minds of others when discussing this subject.  It
    doesn't seem to imply males, yet certainly males are at some time
    virgins.  Double standard, been with us for centureis and refuses to
    die! :*}
    
    What this leads me to conclude is that our sexuality (womens) is STILL
    being defined for us in how it relates to men.  Girls should be clean,
    chaste, virginal for as long as it takes to meet to man who will take
    their virginity, and keep it (them), in his possession, in the bonds of
    marriage, to be his forever.  Males should lose their vrginity as soon
    as possible, gain their needed experience with "sluts", then marry a
    clean girl, and oh by the way it's OK to sow a few wild oats every now
    and then, as long as you don't get caught.
    
    Has this attitude died?
    

    I feel that every lover that I have had, or will have, has a special
    "gift" to give.
    
    For some it was their virginity.
    That was very special, and I wouldn't devalue it by wishing that
    their experience was different. If they didn't feel comfortable
    enough with me to *tell* me that they were virgin then I wouldn't
    be in bed with them.
    
    For others it has been the "gift" of their learned skills and their
    sensitivity, and I wouldn't devalue that by wishing their experience
    was less, or different.
                        
    Each lover unique, and valued as such. Comparisons are odious.
    
    'gail
    
     
    

I never saw my virginity as something to save for someone special or for a
special occasion.  I was a virgin, then I wasn't.  It was a rite of passage
but not a terribly important one for me.

I remember the man I was with when I made the transition ... he was PISSED!!
We're still friends, but he was sooooooo annoyed that I hadn't mentioned it.
I got the feeling that he might have savoured the moment more if he had known
... it just didn't occur to me that he'd want to be told.  Oh well.

This guy was pretty special.  I wouldn't have wanted to have sex with him if
I didn't think he was.  But my approach at the time was more of saving 
physical intimacy for a special person or situation rather than saving my
virginity.

There's a first time for everything we do.  Later can be just as wonderful as
sooner.

  Annie

I have been with a number of virgins (male) and in all of those situations
(as well as my first experience) we both considered it more a matter of
the non-virgin giving a gift to the virgin!  I mean, the person who
(so-called) "recieves" another's virginity doesn't gain anything, and
I think the recipeint gaining something is the essence of a "gift".
But when I "took" someone's virginity (and when someone "took" mine) it
really meant that I was giving them an experience that moves them forward
to the next phase of life, I was giving them an "adult-hood ritual".
It felt very special to be able to give that gift, very satisfying...
and the advantage is, unlike virginity, it is a gift I can give forever
because i never run out of it.

I *adamantly* disagree with virginity being the "most" precious gift
a woman can give a man, even if it is a gift.  "most"????  Be real...
isn't your love, your devotion, your attention more important?  What
that means is that once you have given it, you are basically worthless,
you can't give anything valuable, because you have already given you 
most valuable gift.  It says that women are disposable...you can only
use them once.  A gift which the giver can keep giving forever (love
or devotion) makes them valuable forever...

D!

    I've been married twice.  The first time my wife and I were both
    virgins.  We were very uninformed (we figured out "how to do it" by
    reading the directions from a tampon (TM) package).  Eventually it got
    much better.  I don't know that being a virgin is special, but being
    uninformed is a real pain.
    
    The second time I got married neither my wife nor I were virgins.
    It seems much more "natural" and the issue of virginity was a total
    non-issue.
    
    /s/ Jim Williams

    Well, I'm 27 and have been in several relationships over the years.
    I lost my virginity fairly early on in life, and I "lost it" (and
    haven't found it again since ;-)) in such a way that it made me
    lose perspective and opinion on such a matter. I never anticipated
    my wife to be virgin, but it wouldn't have mattered either way,
    because most of my partners had three or four lovers prior to myself.
    This includes my wife, and she is only 20, and lost her virginity
    when she was 14 years old. She has told me that that was the average
    age that her friends lost their virginity (although no actual poll
    was taken to certify this fact).
    
    I guess for some men it has become not so much a matter of *if*
    you've had a prior lover before, but rather *how many* lovers you've
    had prior to the current relationship. A couple of decades ago,
    if a woman had more than two lovers prior to a marriage, she was
    aconsidered a slut. Nowadays, it's almost commonplace to have several
    lovers prior to marriage. 
    
    The point I'm trying to make is that, the anonymous basenoter need
    not feel ashamed about being a virgin. Some special guy will come
    along and that "circumstance" will be altered. What matters is what
    you do afterwards, and that's just like life...a series of choices.
    
    When it does "happen", however, I think it would almost be a good
    idea to make it a creative experience utilizing your imagination
    to the ultimate. Most women, from my experience, never had the
    opportunity to "do it right" when they first lost it because they
    were young and feeling pressured into having sex. The basenoter,
    as a mature consenting adult, has the opportunity to set the scene
    and the mood as to how "it" will happen, so I would definitely take
    advantage of that. But, that's just one fellow's opinion. I hope
    it's a wonderful first time for you when it does happen.

    re:23 Mez
    
    I ended up being the first one for several girls in high school and 
    early college; that was just the way things happened. Some I knew
    were virgins, some didn't tell me. It never seemed like a 'gift' at
    the time, but the times were such that many young men and women were
    trying to get rid of their virginity as quickly as possible, and
    virginity seemed like more of a curse than a gift. I was pretty
    immature and more interested in satisfying my hormonal urges than
    anything else. We all thought that having sex would somehow make us
    more worldly and adult. I never felt like I 'owned' the woman in 
    any way, that was very much an old world belief that went along with
    the concept of marrying a virgin, somehow. Being first meant having to
    teach, to some degree or another, which can be more or less fun
    depending on the natural interest/ability of the student %^). I think
    that sensuality can't be taught, however, it is a sensibilty and
    sensitivity that you either have or you don't. This is why I think
    it is important to find out if you are compatible in this are with
    your intended mate before marriage. I'm also in favor of living together
    to find out compatiblity in other areas.
    
    I tend to agree with Lorna, and Lauren (I think?) that love in of
    itself will not necessarily be enough to make a great sex life;
    different people have very different drives, and to me it is one
    area of compatiblity that should be explored before marriage. I do
    think that a great sex life is, for me, impossible without love.
    
    -roger
    

            <<< Note 240.29 by WAHOO::LEVESQUE "Resist me not; surrender" >>>

<for the first time would be. The upside of that is that you would be "the best
<she's ever had." :-)

    I suspect that is the real reason some men would prefer a virgin. liesl

    
    Re: 6
    
    I may be wrong, but I think this has been misinterpreted.  It seems to
    me that what the lady is saying is that your virginity is the one
    "wedding gift" that *only you* can give your groom, ie, no-one else is
    going to give theirs to him on your wedding night - or perhaps that out
    of all the wedding gifts he receives, yours will be the most precious? 
    I don't think she meant that it was the most valuable gift you could
    ever give him.
    
    That said, I don't agree with it either.  I think that sexual
    compatibility is a very important part of marriage, and you should
    definitely know about it first.  I know one woman who did marry a man
    who she'd never had sex with - unfortunately, as mentioned earlier, he
    was dysfunctional and, once she had found out, took to beating her to
    vent his own frustrations and sense of "failure".  Luckily that
    marriage didn't last long, but think of the pain that would have been
    prevented if she'd found out first.  That's not to say that men who are
    dysfunctional should not find love and get married, but obviously they
    need someone who doesn't mind.
    
    Neither my husband or I were virgins when we got married, and we lived
    together first so that we were sure that we were compatible in every
    way! :-)  I'm very glad I didn't marry the first bloke I had sex with!!
    
    S.

    
.38>    I may be wrong, but I think this has been misinterpreted.  It seems to
.38>    me that what the lady is saying is that your virginity is the one
.38>    "wedding gift" that *only you* can give your groom, ie, no-one else is
.38>    going to give theirs to him on your wedding night - or perhaps that out
.38>   of all the wedding gifts he receives, yours will be the most precious? 
.38>    I don't think she meant that it was the most valuable gift you could
.38>    ever give him.
    
Well, presumably no one else is going to give the gift of
inexperienced *or* experienced lovemaking to the groom on your
wedding night either, eh? Or maybe I've led a sheltered life....

;-)

Kathy

    
    No, presumably not!
    
    S.

    Isn't it curious that we use the term "lose" to describe what happens
    to virginity?

    Hang on to it.  There is nothing wrong with being a virgin and it's
    something that you never can get back whether you be male or female. 
    I've seen sex cause many people pain for many years.  My wife and I
    both wish that we had waited for one another to make love.  Because
    until now, we've never experienced near the fulfillment which we
    experience now when we make love with one another both physically 
    and emotionally.    
    
    
    
    Peace to you,
    
    Nike

    Oops, that's Mike, not Nike.

 I see nothing wrong with either being a virgin or not being a virgin.  I see 
nothing wrong with wanting to remain a virgin until you get married; I see 
nothing wrong with not wanting to remain a virgin until you get married.

 Having said all that... (-:  Somebody mentioned a while back a strange ritual
which made me feel very uncomfortable.  ?Someone? talked about giving their 
daughter an ornately-wrapped box which was symbolic of VIRGINITY; which was to 
be cherished and given to the bridegroom on  THE WEDDING NIGHT.  I have a 
problem with this, in that it seems to place too strong an emphasis (almost a
religious fervor) on the state of being a virgin.  To me (in my opinion), this
seems to place a greater value on the virginity than on the daughter. 

 Imagine that the daughter goes out and has sex prior to being married.  
Now what? Might she come home and just throw the box out?  In my limited 
experience, the poor girl might be in a position where she wants support from 
her parents, but is afraid to confess that she has lost that most precious 
part of her.  And sitting looking at the box night after night might reinforce
the feeling that she is worthless, that she has lost the only thing of value in
the eyes of her parents...   I know, it sounds silly written out like this, but
I've helped a friend through a similar circumstance (no, not with a Virginity
Icon) and it hurt him.  And it hurt me to watch it!!  

					Nigel

    Thank you Nigel for making this point.  I too am uncomfortable with
    all this emphasis on the state of a girl's virginity.  It strikes
    me as prurient for the parents to take such an interest in their
    daughter's sexuality.  I really think a person's body is their own,
    and it is up to them, not their parents or their future spouse,
    what they do with it.
    	Linda

    Nigel,
    
    You echoed the thoughts I had when I read about the wrapped box
    also. I was wondering about what would go on in the daughter's
    mind if she was no longer a virgin. Would she dare throw the
    box out, and risk her parents reaction i.e. they'd *know* what
    she'd done? or would she leave the box in her room and endure
    the thoughts it would bring in her mind.
    
    and I agree with Linda that it smacks of prurience for the parents
    to take so much interest in their daughter's virginity. It is not
    our place as parents to force the issue in such a fashion. It is
    our place to be as open and accepting as we can be so that our
    kids will come to us with problems. It is also our place to teach
    them what our standards are, and to talk about the reasons why
    one should be responsible in re the decisions one makes for their
    own sexuality. Further, this should be for *sons* as well as daughters.
    
    I mentioned the idea of the wrapped box to my oldest daughter and
    she agreed with me that it would be an uncomfortable and intrusive
    sort of thing to have around.
    
    Bonnie

    I have felt it very important to stress to my daughter(now 11 and
    budding) that sexual intercourse results in pregnacy. She has been
    educated about how babies are made for more that half her life. I 
    got a cute story book that explained every thing really simply and it
    was no big deal to her. She did look at me funny and made the comment
    "You did that with him?" at one point and soon it settled in the back
    of her mind. When she was eight or nine I got her used to the idea
    that pregnacy can be prevented. We talked about methods that people use
    to prevent pregnacy and why they would want to chose not to have a
    baby. I also stressed that some forms of birth control prevent
    the spread of disease. She knows about AIDS and how it is spread.
    She knows my major concern for her is that she know what she wants 
    and how to protect herself. She was amazed when she found out
    that people could find that they were pregnant and then chose to
    stop the pregnacy. She was very anti-abortion. I am happy she values
    life. Eventually she has come to relise that every person should have
    the right to choose it if they feel they need to.
    
    
    Over time we have had discussions and seen movies together and
    gradually she has formed her own ideas about what she wants. I have
    told her that making love for the first time is very special and
    she should pick someone special to share the experiance with. She does
    agree that it is a good idea. Now I can sit back and wait for her 
    to blossom because I feel that all the ground rules are set in her 
    mind and heart. I only hope she will be good to herself and not make
    to many mistakes but I think we have enough communication going on that
    even when she does she will know where to come for help.
    
    If I could chose for her I would lock her in her room till she was
    25 ;').
     I think I'm glad I don't. I worked at giving her the best information
    to make her desitions with though and its not static the information 
    process keeps going on and I learn something new, as she tells me
    somthing she read or heard on TV.
    
    My biggest concern is for her to protect herself. I hope I have given
    her all the information that could allow her to do that. The decition
    of when and with whom is up to her as I feel it should be with any
    idividual. 
    
    I really cant agree that a child should be presured to keep celebate or 
    not keep celebate. They should know what is involved and know they have
    a right to say "no" or "yes" and know why they need protection and what
    to do to get it for themselves if they select "yes".
    
    janet 

    Thanks, Nigel, for expressing some of the discomfort I felt at
    hearing "the box ritual".

    The other thing that bothers me is that by tying the first
    sexual experience so explicitly to a marriage ceremony, it
    plants the idea that it's okay (or even right!) to get married
    just to have sex.  That doesn't seem to be in the long-term 
    best interests of the child.

	Sharon

    re. .48
    
    Funny you should mention that. I have come to believe that that is
    exactly the reason I got married at the age of 17. So that I could 
    fit into the "accepted" group in my circle of christian friends.
    
    I think that's why I haven't stressed that at all in my sharing
    of info with my daughter. I married to young and was divorsed with 
    a child to raise befor I was 22. I have always stressed not marring 
    befor collage and I have told her that I wish I had gone and finished
    befor I took on the responcibilities of raising a family. 
    janet
    
    

    Speaking about getting married just to have sex...
    
    A friend of mine a couple of years back told me how when she was in
    college she and this guy were getting it on rather heavy and getting
    *extremely* horny.  But, because they were both Catholic didn't want
    to sleep together if they weren't married.  So they looked at driving
    down to West Virginia and getting married over the weekend so they
    could sleep together.
    
    Luckily, sanity did prevail.

    I had some problems with the box idea for the same reasons which all of
    you had.  I don't agree with the idea that you should not be involved
    in what your children does as far as sex has concerned.  I think this
    parental indifference (although it's what we were told by some
    psychologists) is to blame for a great deal of the social ills we are
    experiencing today. IMO of course.
    
    
    Mike

    Mike,
    
    I think there is a difference between being involved with your child
    and wanting/needing to know the details of your child's sex life.
    If my child chooses to become sexually active, then what they are
    doing is not my business, anymore than what I do with my husband
    is their business.
    
    Bonnie

    re .52 I agree to a point, Bonnie. It isn't your business. However,
    when your 16-year-old daughter gets pregnant by a 17-year-old boy
    with no money, and *you* have to foot the bill, it becomes your
    business in a hurry. (This happened to a family member.) As long
    as your child understands the consequences of sex *and accepts full
    responsibility for them*, it's their business. But how many
    _children_ can and do ? (IMO responsibility, not age, is the 
    dividing line between child and adult.)

    Dana
    
    understood.
    
    Bonnie

    re: .?? Janet,
    
    I admire your parenting techniques.
    
    Tony

    RE: .53
    
    Thanks Dana for that point!!... It cost me over 3 grand out of my own 
    pocket last year for Becky to have the baby she gave up for adoption at 
    age 15. Insurance DID NOT cover a single penny of it.
    
    For those that advocate their kids sleeping around is okay - I hope
    they have a HUGE savings account.  Mine was wiped out totally by the
    time I got done with Becky being in the hospital 1 month before birth,
    and then an attempted suicide afterwards. BTW: My bother was born while
    my mother was on the pill and never missed taking the pill, not a
    single day. So even taking precautions doesn't always help. And you
    can't count on insurance being there, even when you **thought** they
    would be.
    
    For those that haven't been there... talk is REALLY cheap...
    
    Sorry, its just a very deep issue with me. I've been there. I went
    through labor with a 15 year old.  I now have just found out my 15 year
    old has not had a period since giving birth the 22nd of November.
    I now have the opportunity to switch to John Hancock, so after
    paying out ANOTHER $350.00, 80% of her future doctor bills will be
    covered, something tells me, its not over.
    
    But that's okay - you people who think its just fine and dandy for
    teenagers to sleep around... walk a mile in the shoes I walked in last
    year.
    
    Somehow, the "box" seems a very good way to go, although I won't go that
    way with my other two... luckiy they had a very good example of what
    they don't want to have to go through....
    
    Its STILL a very deep cut for me that just won't heal - it just keeps
    bleeding and bleeding, no matter what I try to get it to heal.

    Re: my last reply (56)
    
    One person, that I respect dearly, sent me mail last night, that had in
    it the statement:
    
> but re: your note in =wn=, where you said twice that some noters "advocate
> "their kids sleeping around" is really off base.  No one said that, they 
> have all expressed deep concern for intelligent and responsible behavior
    
    I just want to acknowledge the above, but also want to attempt to show
    where I beleive that in THAT behavior they are "advocating their kids
    sleeping around"...
    
    If you don't do things to put a stop to it, and try to make them
    understand how WRONG [key words follow] AT THEIR age having sex is,
    and do things to make sure they don't, then you are advocating it.
    
    I don't think pre-maritial sex is bad. I think its bad when you can't
    handle it at 14, as well as you can at say 24 (pick an age, any age
    that you have been out of the house and on your own for a while).
    
    I believe you can't stop a 16/17 year old from doing ANYTHING. If there
    is a will, there is darn well going to be a way. However, you can do
    things that will make then twice 4 or 5 times about it. The box was one
    way (one that I would not use, but still a way), that would put that
    thought in a girls head, "What will I do with the box tomorrow"...
    (heck, maybe not :-)...)... But still, if you instill those types of
    feelings, then maybe just maybe, some might stay.  My 13 year old went
    a first boy/girl dance a month ago in June...  She came home and made
    the statement "I wish you weren't there"... But I wasn't there, I told
    her... I was at the movies. "no", she said, "you were in my head,
    telling me it wasn't right to let that boy try to kiss you", and she
    didn't let him.  I was so proud of her, I beamed (and bragged)...
    
    When she's ready, we'll talk about how to handle the feelings that come
    with kissing, walking hand-in-hand, necking, etc...
    
    At 10, they each learned about sex. How its done, why its done, and the
    lines guys will try to use to get back their willpower... I'm not
    stupid, guys will try, even at THAT early age.
    
    Before Becky went through what she went though, my thoughts were: If
    you want to, fine, just let me know so you can go on the pill. After
    watching her give birth, and seeing the emotional scars she will carry
    for the rest of her life, those feelings have changed DRASTICALLY.
    Sure, the "I'll put you on the pill" is still there, but its there
    with much more now.
    
    Maybe as time heals some wounds, I'll think otherwise, but I truely
    right now, can't see ANY teenager having sex, even if it is with the
    parents intelligent and responsible behavior mode. I've seen the
    devastation one slip could make in a family. 
    
    I don't want anyone to have to go through it.

    Bonnie,
    
          I think your question has been answered as to why it is
    different.  I love my children as does my wife.  We don't want them to
    make the mistakes we did.  That's all I can say.  Sounds like the
    standard old corny parent answer; be that as it may, it's true.
    
    
    Mike

    I wrote a reply a while back about how I shared information with my
    daughter about sex and contraception. It was a gradual thing and I did
    it that way because It was not done that way with me. Now at 11 she has
    all the information I know about what I know is fact from scientific
    studies and what could be true and what is 'wives tales'. When I find
    out somthing new I share the information with her. I may have a
    conversation with somone who has had an abortion recently I will 
    share with her the emotions they discribed. When a daughter of a friend
    of ours had a baby and gave it up for adoption Angela was with us when
    we went to offer our comfort at her loss and encourage her that she did 
    what she thought is best for the baby. Angela looked through the album
    as we complemented her on the beauty of her child and the strenght it
    took to choose to give this gift to someone/couple who could not have
    a child of thier own. Angela has heard my struggle with a decition
    to have an abortion(because of a genetic problem that could decrease
    my ability to raise it to adulthood). I havent hid things that are 
    sexual and difficult from her. I dont know if this is right but I have
    tried to give her the information so that she can see what others have 
    done and what  they have felt and assume that some things are going to 
    be the same for her if she sould make this desition or that decition.
    
    On the other hand I have told her from the time she was 7 that she
    would not be able to date til she was 16 or older. I do not approve
    of individuals dating but would consider sending her brother with her
    for many activies and would consider double dating if I know all the
    young people involved. I make it a point to keep her in family
    activities that she will enjoy and that have several kids of both
    sexes that are her age range. I am a girl scout leader and we are
    always doing something with the girls. I hope that by keeping her 
    busy doing service projects and camping and horsebackriding I can
    keep her out of trouble long enough for her to see what the world 
    is about. She is around kids (brownies and toddlers) for different
    activies and learning about birth and how to take care of babies 
    can teach her how difficult it is to be a 'mom'.
    
    I can only hope that the more info she has about feelings and
    responsibility and some practical apllication will help her relise
    that s*x is more that just 'good feelings'.
    
    Because she has not reached the point where she could physically have
    a child I relise I cant say I have experiance taking her through these
    years but I have great faith that I will know what she is doing and who
    its with til she has shown responcibiliy to take care of herself(has a 
    job and her own place).
    
    Just my efforts at trying to avoid the worst of the teen years.
    janet
    

    
    RE:.59
    
    You said your daughter is not at the age where she can physically have
    children, right? I saw, and read, in the Kinsey report that women can
    have children up to two years before their first menstrual period,
    because their body has begun preparations for ovulation (or something
    like that). I was very surprised by this information, and know of one
    family member who got pregnant at 13, before her first period, and
    for a long time, no one believed that she hadn't had "it" yet. She gave
    the baby up for adoption.
    
    On virginity, I was determined to wait until I got married, and once I
    was engaged to my former fiance I couldn't wait. I felt like it was a
    very special time, and I will love him forever, however we did not get
    married, and I am very grateful he is not the only lover I have ever
    had. Furthermore, he was experienced and I wasn't. I used to be a
    little jealous of that, and sometimes felt inferior. However, he was a
    wonderful teacher, and I know he still holds me in high regard. I was
    the only virgin he had ever been with, and it did mean a lot to him,
    especially since he thought I would be his wife. My mother gave the
    same advice someone else mentioned. She kept me very informed, from a
    young age, and stressed to me that she thought it would mean more if my
    first experience was someone I loved, and loved me. The first time can
    be emotional, and a bit traumatic, and one of the sweetest memories I
    have is of my ex holding me and answering the hundreds of questions I
    had afterwards. It's funny though, because after I had sex, I told my
    mom (within a few weeks) and she got pretty nervous. Finally she asked
    me what I thought, and I replied, "it wasn't that great" (because ALL
    of my friends had done it and made it sound like I was missing out on
    the world's best kept secret) anyway my mother just started laughing
    hysterically and that really broke the ice. I think of that now and
    believe, at that point in time, she must have been nervous by the woman
    in me, but was reassured after hearing the naive girl child respond to
    what sex was like.
    
    Ofcourse, practice makes perfect........
    
    Just my opinion.
    
    Melanie

    thanks Melanie
    
    what a nice note!

This is a reply from the basenote author!
>>>
To all noters;  After reading all your input I've decided to wait 
until the right guy comes along (hope it doesn't take too long!) and 
also to be in love with that person or REALLY care about him in vise 
versa.  I think that has been my big problem.  Wondering "is" he the 
right one?  Well I guess he wasn't because I still have what some of 
you call "my Present".  

RE: 60.  That was a nice note!  THANKS!

ME!

    Why don't men wait for the right one? 

    Some men do.