Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    I saw that special and unfortunately, you didn't miss anything. I felt
    physically ill watching that garbage and I suppose that as long as the
    money is coming in, no one over there is going to be willing to do
    anything about it.
    
    wes
     

    BTW, the country under discussion is Thailand, not the Phillipines.

    re .0, imagine the poverty and despair that must permeate a society
    where human beings are held in such low esteem.  I hope it never
    happens in this country, but with rising homelessness, capitalistic
    greed, etc., who knows....
    
    Lorna
    

re. .3

Unfortunately, Lorna, it has happened here.  There have been accounts of
mothers "selling" (i.e. prostituting) their daughters for drugs.

<sigh>

-Hamp

    I have a clipping that I cut out of the Boston Globe about 3 years ago
    titled - "28 Women Die in Ship Container".  These prostitues, after
    being sold, are shipped around the islands in shipping containers no
    less!  The man who does this says it keeps the men supplied with
    "fresh" girls.  This particular shipping container had no holes and
    after the 4 day trip, only 14 survived.  The rest were found dead with
    their mouths open.  Do you know what the guy said?  "This is just one
    of several transports that just didn't work out."  Oh.  Well.  Ok, try
    to do better next time.
    
    I found it particularly interesting because this was not big news.  I
    watched the tv newscasts for days afterward - nothing.  About a month
    later was when they found those 19 men, (illegally entering the US from
    Mexico, I think), who had suffocated in a railroad boxcar.  THAT made
    big news.  It was all over the newscasts.  I wonder why 19 dead men
    made a much bigger splash than 28 dead girls - and yes, most of them
    were young girls who had been sold to these men.  The practice still
    goes on, obviously. 

I'm about 3/4 of the way through "When Heaven and Earth Change Places" by Le Ly
Haslip. She talks about some of this in the context of the Vietnam War.
	Mez

    the show was Prime Time...
    They also showed a guy named Morgan, who had initially recieved awards
    etc because he started a shelter for homeless boys over there.  he had
    been presented on 20/20 or 60 minutes, can't remember which. anyway
    after the show had been broadcast, 5 or 6 of the boys came forward to
    say that he had molested them, that the home was actually a brothal for
    visiting pediphiles who were aquaitances of Morgan.  after they
    "donated" larges sums of monies to the place, Morgan would give them
    their choice.  sick.  anyway, last night they said that he was finally
    arrested.  Thailand has a law against prostition, but it is not
    enforced.  I think they got him on child abuse.  what makes me wonder
    is, is it because he was a non-thai that he was arrested? was it
    because it was boys being prostituted and not girls?  
    they showed one village where they said that families rejoiced when
    girls where born because that would mean they could sell them in a
    couple of years, the average price was $1000.  the average income for
    the farmers is $600.  Therefore, they justified the sale.  
    sheeeshh
    
    vivian

It was 60 Minutes, if it's the one I remember. They, in fact, did a follow up
when they found about the prostitution.
	Mez

    
    it is my understanding that the vast majority of prostitutes here in
    the usa are under the legal age of consent and have been abused as
    children.
    

re: .0 - is this what is known as "white slavery"?  (A term I have never
really understood.)
    
At any rate, all i can say is: gross.

Joe:
>    it is my understanding that the vast majority of prostitutes here in
>    the usa are under the legal age of consent and have been abused as
>    children.
 
These statistics always confuse me - how do they know?  People don't
say "prostitute" under the "job title" section on tax forms, or on the
census.  The only ones they can know for sure are the ones they *catch*.
Those are usually the street walkers, not the "call girls".  The women
who run through massage parlors or escort services or word of mouth -
how can they even *think* they have enough data about them to draw those
kinds of conclusions?  If I had to guess, I would say most prostitutes
aren't street-walkers, but most statistics are based on street-walkers
because 1) they are more likely to get caught, 2) they are more sensational.

I would readily believe that most street-walkers are underaged.  Probably
runaways and/or drug-addicted.  I am very skeptical that most of *all*
prostitutes are under-aged.

D!

    
    The book Female Sexual Slavery by Kathleen Barry (1979) talks about the
    international traffic in women and girls, and how the powers that could
    do something about it tend to look the other way.
    
    D.

Nit: try not to link massage parlors with prostitution. Massage has such a bad
reputation, through that linkage. I know that sometimes parlors are fronts for
prostitution, but a lot of masseuses need a lot more good press. You should
have _seen_ my mother's eyes when I suggested she get a massage. sigh...
	Mez

    
    re:.11
    the error was in my use of the term 'age of consent' which may be as
    low as 14 in some states. i should have said something like 'age of
    majority' which might be more accurately construed to mean 'under 18'
    which is what i had in mind.
    
    re:.12
    as to the age of prostitutes, you may be quite right. i do not have
    hard data, and the information that i'm recalling out of my admittedly
    addled memory might very well have shown the incompleteness you mention.
    
    as to prostitutes being victims of abuse as children, however, those 
    studies are much more complete and are not limited to or by the
    vagarities of the legal system.
    

>Nit: try not to link massage parlors with prostitution. Massage has such a bad
>reputation, through that linkage. I know that sometimes parlors are fronts for
>prostitution, but a lot of masseuses need a lot more good press. You should
>have _seen_ my mother's eyes when I suggested she get a massage. sigh...

Oh, Mez, i do understand that there are legit massage parlors.  There are
also legit escort services.  Really.  It is just that both are frequent
fronts for prostitutes, and so when discussing where prostitutes are, in
addition to the streets, we can't leave them out.

I would think (though I haven't looked into it) that it would be pretty clear
by seeing the place, or their advertisements, which ones are "brothels"
and which are places to have a massage.  For starters, if you saw it in
the personals section of the Phoenix, don't expect a fantastic backrub.

D!

[I've always wanted to get a professional massage, but it seems like one
of those wanton luxery types of things I could never justify spending money
on.]

    re: .9  Yes, Herb, many of us do feel strongly about our subordinate
    status.  
    
    I'm not sure I buy the "locale" defense, though I've heard it before 
    when mentioning this story.  We did manage to find out in this country 
    about the Tiannenman (sp) Square massacre, yes?  And that was quite a 
    distance from here. And we found out quite graphically about the 
    orphanages in Hungary that were basically "dumpsters" for the "rejects" 
    women had while filling their government quota of 4 kids each.  I really 
    don't see the careless suffocation of 28 of these prostitues, (or even
    the situation itself when it's 'successful'), as any less tragic or any 
    less inherently sensational - except in that it involves only female
    prostitutes.  But back to the topic proper.

    
    I did not see the show myself however I do have opinions on the subject.
    
    These are of course only my own opinions;
    
    1. Anyone dealing in slavery should be dragged to the nearest tree
       and hung up by thier neck until they die.
    
    2. Child prostitution is wrong and I would equate it with the rape
       of a child, which I also consider to be a hanging offense.
    
    3. Since I do not believe in capital punishment you can substitute
       "Life in solitary confinment with no chance of parole" for any
       opinions about "hanging people by thier necks till they are dead".
    
    4. No economic justification can make these right or acceptable.
    
    

    One of the concepts which it is difficult for us, as Westerners,
    to understand, is that individual life counts for much less in some
    other cultures.  Thailand (and much of Asia), simply assigns a *very
    different* value on the sanctity/worth of the individual.  *Family*
    is a far more important social unit there than here - and sale of
    a family member to provide support for the rest of the family may
    be a 'higher good' than the potential of the individual so sold.
    
    Fairly chilling, especially when coupled with the concept that a
    family's social security rests on having adult *sons* to support
    the old folks.  
    
    Never the less, applying Western values doesn't always work when
    trying to understand a particular phenomena.
    
    Alison

          You have to work very hard to warp a mind to the point of selling
    it's affections, and you have to work very hard to warp a mind to the
    point of buying affections from others. Since both sides of the
    polarity have existed forever, it will be a long, sad time before these
    things improve. When dysfunctional people stop raising children is when
    we will see an improvement in such matters. Don't hold your breath. The
    science of childrearing is a mystery to most and especially those that 
    inevitably impart their dysfunctional self-concepts to their children.
    
     
                                                              M... 

    
    I definitely second .20's thoughts. I grew up in Asia and I can
    understand these parents' decision to sell their kids off. 
    
    I read an article in the Boston Globe magazine a while back on
    young prostitues in Thailand. First of all, these villagers are 
    extremely poor . These girls are "sacrificing" themselves
    for their families. Some of these girls actually go home after
    a few years in the big cites and they go on to get married and
    lead a relatively normal life. SOme of these parents think that
    at least the kids have a chance to go to the big cities  and hopely
    find better lives later on. 
    
    I guess, when one is really poor, one has to look at different options,
    no matter how awful they are. And believe me, if I were one of those
    kids, I wouldn't blame my parents.
    
    Now, selling one's kids to get high is a different story...
    
    
    Eva.

    Amnesty International is currently investigating issues like
    this under its Human Rights of Women campaign. This is a new
    campaign for Amnesty and I don't know much about it yet.
    AI USA is having its annual general meeting at BU this weekend,
    and there's a seminar on women's issues that I plan to go to,
    so I will  have more information next week.
    
    I'm really glad Amnesty is taking this up, because Amnesty
    works with people at the grass roots level as well as with
    governments. Abuses are directly reported to Amnesty by the
    families or friends of victims. Imagine being a slave trader 
    and getting several thousands of letters from around the world 
    saying people don't like what you're doing! Things that Amnesty 
    becomes involved with tend to become well publicized, too, so 
    that's another good thing. 

    The thought that the local customs/believes should not be measured
    by the western believes is disgusting to me:
    
    the western world - at least in my impression - is based on the
    believ that each and every human individual has equal rights,
    notably to have the freedom of choice. From this perspective
    the girls and their families obviously do not have this freedom
    if they want to survive. It is wrong for anybody in any context
    in any culture in any country to force dependent individuals
    to do something they themselves would not 'enjoy' to do.
    
    Re 28 suffocated prostitues: they were prostitutes only, i.e.
    only beeings similar to humans - why to bother then? Recently a
    pimp involved in importing fresh meat from Ghana explained on TV
    in France that after the women get unusable, they (the organisers) 'dump
    the garbage on the street'. Nobody except for some feminist groups
    got excited about it. These women, if caught, face charges for
    improper conduct, violating immigration laws and dozens of other crimes
    and get expelled (with the exception of Netherland where these women
    are treated as victims and not as offenders).
    
    The STERN magazine ran recently a series of articles about chlidren
    in the third word and child pornography & prostitution. Pretty
    sickening reading. Still have some copies around, send me a mail
    if interested and I would copy what I still have (it is in german though).
    
    
    
    
    

    
    re. 24
    
    From where I came from 
     
    >the western world - at least in my impression - is based on the
    >believ that each and every human individual has equal rights,
    >notably to have the freedom of choice.
    
    the above can sometime be interpreted as selfish, egotistic or
    lack of committment to the community/famliy and lack of respect
    for elders.
    
    I think differences between east and west are not just in customs
    or believes, the value systems, religions, expectations and sociology 
    set up are very different. What we cherish here may not be desirable 
    over there. If we start judging other nations with our standards,
    then I think we'll never have peace on earth. I am not saying that
    we should close our eyes to abuses of human rights overseas, I think we
    should be very careful to understand the situations, react in 
    appropriate fashions, help to solve the problems at the root and
    put the blame on the right parties.
    
    Eva.

    Thank you for saying that Eva.
    manisha

    If that standard causes psychological or physical pain, then it is wrong.

>                      <<< Note 186.27 by ULTRA::KENDALL >>>
>
>    If that standard causes psychological or physical pain, then it is wrong.

	Who is going to determine "psychological or physical pain" and at
	what point is "wrong" defined and what are the concequences of
	cultural interference on the individual.

	_peggy

		(-)	
		 |
			To Her ALL things are born, live and die with
			equal value - Most people of the West
			can not imagine the value of "doing the
			least amount of harm" theory.

    
    re. 27
    
    >    If that standard causes psychological or physical pain, then it is
    wrong.
    
    I think the standard in the East is - pick the option that causes
    the least psychological or physical pain for everyone. Eg. if
    selling one child means food for the rest of the family, then it
    is an acceptable option. 
    
    Another thing,  I think, people in this country don't get to
    experience is extreme poverty and hunger. Poor people here can 
    go on welfare, get food stamps, get medical aid, they won't starve 
    to death. But, people in other countries are not as fortunate.
    My grandmother literally starved to death in China during 
    the Japanese invasion. If my aunts had a chance, they would, in
    no doubt sell their bodies to feed their mother. I would do the same 
    if I had to watch my own mother die. Whether my mother would approve
    of the idea is another thing. My love for my family is greater
    than my love for my body. And maybe this is a foreign concept to
    a lot of westerners.
    
    
    Eva.

    If you're going to go by phychological or physical pain, I would submit
    that Western cultures have their fair share of suffering also.  I'm
    afraid the pointing finger would wind up coming right back at
    ourselves.  
    
    There are always some square pegs trying to fit into round
    holes.  The values of placing family and community 'good' before
    individual 'good' can be very powerful ways of ensuring a society which
    'works', sometimes far better than ours does.  It isn't necessarily
    what I would choose for myself, but then I am a product of Western
    culture.
    
    Alison

    Re: the last few
    
    We as individuals and as nations impose our standards on other nations all
    the time.  One very timely example, the sanctions now imposed against
    South Africa.  Our standards of anti-segregation are being applied to 
    another culture.  We have measured the white minority there against our
    rules and we have found them morally bankrupt.  Are we wrong?  Why would
    expressing disgust for the practice of selling children into prostitution
    be any less right?    

	I support the Black South African's request of sanctions and
	will not remove my support until they the Black South African's
	say it is "done" - this is not me imposing on someone else 
	but me using my values to support another's view of the world.

	I also agree with Nelson Mandela that support is support not
	a bargain that the supporter gains from at the demise of the
	supported.

	I would support a grassroots or even just a local cultual
	effort to solve the problem of child abuse.  BUT I would not
	tell them what they should do to solve the problem.  BECAUSE
	there are many unseen/unknown issues that cause the situation
	to exist in the first place.  I will, though, work on White
	society to end its use of third world children in abusive
	situation with caution.

	_peggy
		(-)
		 |
			We all live on the same world
			but we all don't live in the same world.

    
    re.31
    
    Well, I consider white South Africans westerners. I think they have more
    or less have the same privileges/education/social standing/living
    standards/religion that whites here have. Using the American yardstick 
    on them is not that far-fetched. However, I don't think too many of us 
    really know what it is like to in a poor village in Thailand. How can
    we use our standards on them on issues that are more grey than pure
    black and white? We may think that prostitution is immoral
    but in other societies, it is not a big deal. The Geishas in Japan
    were regarded highly. We know that the white South Africans value
    their lives as much as we do, but we don't know for sure if the
    Thai think the same way. We can only judge others with our standards
    if there is a common base.
    
    
    Eva.
    
    
    
     

    re: .31
    
    I understand your point, but there is also a difference between the law
    of a land and the culture of a land.  South Africa REQUIRES that there
    be racial segregation and that all whites be treated preferentially to
    all blacks.  This is codified into law BY WHITES.
    
    Asian and Third World countries do not have laws REQUIRING child
    prostitution.  Instead, selling children into prostitution is sometimes
    used as a desperate measure in a desperate situation by individual
    families in crisis, under a very different social structure than
    Western social structure.  I don't like AT ALL that child prostitution
    exists, but I find myself unable to condemn it utterly if it is caused
    by overwhelming family poverty.  (I condemn those who create a market
    for it, however...)
    
    
    I just read _WHEN HEAVEN AND EARTH CHANGED PLACES_, by Le Ly Hayslip,
    who writes about growing up in central Vietnam.  She describes her
    culture and its customs, showing that it has a logic that is sharply
    different from the logic of American culture.  Family, tradition, and
    religion are all ranked higher than individual happiness.  Children are
    given numbers (One, Two, Three) for names ... children die when they
    aren't fed a lot ... you can't get too attached to one child.  It
    reminds me of certain periods in industrial England, for instance, when
    children were used for cheap labor.  In hard times, children are always
    hurt, too.
    
    I think it's horrible that children are forced or sold into
    prostitution.  I don't think anyone should be forced into prostitution. 
    The root problem is poverty, however, not necessarily lack of morality.  
    
    Pam

    YES!

    re .31
    
    I think its incredible that you could draw a parallel between the
    situation in South Africa where the people being oppressed are so sick
    of it that they are willing to take up arms and start a civil war, have
    forced the country to declare a state of emergency and have taken to
    sending their own local ambassadors i.e. Desmond Tutu and Nelson
    Mandela to speak with other nations to push for sanctions, to countries
    having child prostitution which they themselves are choosing to
    tolerate over starvation and death.
    
    When the will of the oppressed is made so blatantly clear to those in
    power, ceding to their will should not be called "imposing our views on
    someone". Geez, this is one of the few times that the US has done
    something decent in Africa on a national scale and you use that example
    to talk about "the US imposes its standards on others"
    
    Ohhhhhhhh that burns me up. The WORLD is joining together to impose the
    will of the majority on a privileged emigrant minority that has
    oppressed its natives for a few centuries. AND doing it in a way that
    the representatives of the native majority SPECIFICALLY ASKED FOR.
    
    That was a rotten example!        

    Oh, I get it now.  Huh, how stupid can I be?  The uneducated oppressed 
    minority has to ASK for help first, then it's okay to impose our 
    standards on another sovereign nation.  
    
    First let me say that the U.S. should have imposed its standards on 
    South Africa long before it became politically right, and long before 
    being ASKED.  At least it is doing it now.  Was this a rotten example,
    I don't think so.  
    
    You can categorize almost all cultures as different forms of survival 
    strategies.  From these strategies grows a framework of values that 
    filters everything a given person sees, hears and does.  Is the
    white minority trying to survive in South Africa, you bet they are.  Are
    the poor farmers in Thailand trying to survive by selling their children
    into prostitution, right again.  Both are value systems, both equally
    abhorrent to ME!
    
    Never in my wildest imagination would I ever think I would be attacked
    for expressing my outrage over child prostitution, in WOMAN NOTES no
    less.  Thanks to all who made my first and maybe my last reply here 
    such a pleasant experience!
       
    
                               

    How about - we talk about the people who create a market for child
    prostitutes? Why not condemn them?

    re: .37
    I understand why you made the parallel.  We all agree that child
    prostitution is a bad thing.  No-one is *defending* it as *good*.
    
    The disagreement with your example is that it doesn't take into account
    the differences between the two situations:
    
      o White South Africans are not struggling to survive.  They are 
         struggling to remain ON TOP, where they have no right to be.  
    
      o Third World families are struggling to get enough food to eat,
         and make a choice to sacrifice one child so the rest may live.
    
    I have more respect for the difficult choices of a family who needs to
    get food to survive than for those of a family in a lovely house who
    needs a maid who commutes for two-four hours on a train from a shack
    she shares with six people.
    
    I agree with you that everyone has a framework, and that white South
    Africans *feel* persecuted.  But it's EASY to look beyond their
    framework to see that their suffering pales in comparison to the
    suffering of blacks in that country.  Not so true in the complex
    situation of child prostitution (at the family level) in third world
    countries.  There, the "bad guys" and the "good guys" are a lot harder
    to disentangle...and that's why it's a tougher thing for us to see what
    the problem really is and know how to "help" in a way that will really
    work.
    
    As a side issue, it is NOT clear to me that the U.S. "should" impose
    its standards on another country without the permission/good will of
    the majority of that country's citizens.  I think it's appropriate we
    wait to be asked.  We in the U.S. have our own framework, and it is not
    necessarily the correct framework for every other country.  I think
    it's inappropriate to assume that we're always morally right and that 
    we know best how other cultures should think and act.  (We don't like
    it when Iran does it to us!)  The suggestion that we should wait to be
    asked is just to make sure we are acting within the framework of the
    culture in question, rather than wading in trying to change them to be
    *us*.  Once we're asked for help, we should give it, of course -- and a
    lot sooner than we usually do.
    
    In any case, I agree with Manisha and others that the key to this is to
    look at those who BUY child prostitutes ... those who make it a
    profitable thing to do.  Without buyers, there would be no selling...
    
    Also, I was struck by the lack of media attention to the actions of
    these predators -- the women who died at sea who were not written
    about, etc.  How come so much attention to the drug trade and no
    attention to the person trade?  The large-scale traffickers are
    horrifying...
    
    Pam

    I would doubt trying to impose Western cultural ideals on the Thai's
    could improve their living conditions.  
    
    If we Americans had to spend each day of our lives on the edge 
    of disaster, knowing the poverty we faced wasn't going to go away, 
    well, I think you'd start to see plenty of cruelty.  
    
    Our cultur might change the way we are cruel but I think ideals need 
    a rich environment to have any chance of success.

    For a detailed discussion of how Thai prostitution is expected
    to spread AIDS, check the latest Harper's. Frightening stuff.
    The epidemic is expected to snowball in that part of the world 
    in ten years. In sheer scale, the ensuing death and devastation 
    should dwarf the last plague in Europe.
    
    Ganesh.

    
    > For a detailed discussion of how Thai prostitution is expected
    > to spread AIDS, check the latest Harper's.
    
    Or the magazine section in this past Sunday's New York Times.