Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Jusy my opinion...but I think if you ask, then you pay...if he asks, he
    pays...early in the relationship.  Later on, it generally "evolves",
    depending on your relative resources, and the types of things you like
    to do...
    
    Susan

    ... I guess what I really want to know is what is a nice, tactful,
    or maybe humorous way to let someone know that it DOES bother you
    if you go dutch.
    
    Suggestions?
    
    

    In general, many women who have salaries which match their male friends
    tend to do dutch as a sign of equality and independence. Because its
    the trendy thing to do right now, more and more men expect it.
    
    Ask yourself what it is about dutch that makes you uncomfortable, and
    find a nice way to convey this to the young man. If he is uncomfortable
    NOT going dutch, then there's a basic incompatibility. It sounds like
    its important to you to follow the traditional dating protocols, so you
    may need to find a man who also prefers them. And I must admit that us
    feminists are not going to make that completely easy; there's another
    note in here that talks about Dutch and it seems that many womannoters
    prefer it...
    
    For me personally, I always go dutch with a friend, and I tend to
    treat or go dutch if I suggest the activity; I let him pick up the tab
    if he suggests it... and if I'm interested in him, I usually don't
    complain if he grabs the tab.
    
    But you really have to do what feels right for you.

    A former roommate used to yell at me all the time for offering to go
    Dutch treat.  She said I should always assume that the man makes more
    money than I do so he can afford to pay more than I could.
    
    I used to belong to Together, the "introduction" service.  I ALWAYS
    offered to go Dutch treat on the first date.  Got into some pretty
    good arguments.  If a man insisted on paying, I let him.  Most of
    the men were surprised and pleased since they were on as tight a 
    budget as I was.  
    
    I always offer to split the bill first.  Today I don't believe it's
    totally fair to expect a man to ALWAYS pay the bills.  I've treated
    if it was my idea and I did the asking out.  Have also told a man
    I was seeing that I couldn't afford to got out (we almost always
    went Dutch).  If he wanted to go out with me then, he paid since I
    couldn't.  
    
    Linda
    

    
    I am always either prepared to go dutch, or prepared to pay them back
    the minute we find a money machine after.
    
    Generally, my groundrules are that whoever asks, pays.  But this is not
    carved in stone.
    
    If it's an expen$ive restaurant they wish to eat at, I may ask them to
    pay, and they can either decide they wish to, or decide to go dutch at
    a less expensive place.
    
    The above rules apply to both women and men I dine with.
    
    In addition, I particularly feel comfortable going dutch or paying
    myself for both of us on a first "date".  That way I don't feel they
    can pull the "you owe me something" routine, and even if they don't
    pull it it is sometimes baggage I carry anyways.
    
    -Jody
    

    
    see also:
    
    mennotes
    154 - the dating game
    
    singles
    1919 - who should pay
    
    -Jody
    
    

    re.0,.2
    
    In truth, I believe that you are fortunate that this person _asked_ if
    you mind.  Most of the people I know would have assumed that you had
    intended to pay as you had suggested the outing.  This is not in any
    way a judgement of right/wrong; merely a reflection of the norms to
    which I am accustomed.
    
    In a way I admire you. My self-esteem isn't sufficiently high to ask
    someone to spend money on me.  I'd sit at home and mope about an
    opportunity missed ... and that's stupid.
    
    I wish I knew of something 'humourous' to give you to express your
    discomfort with splitting expenses.  But if you mind, I believe that
    saying so is best.
    
      Annie

    
    
    I'm my own person and I don't feel comfortable expecting someone else
    to pay my way.  To me, dating is sharing.....I give something to the
    other person and they give something back to me....to me, that's what
    relationships are all about.
    
    One of the guys I'm currently dating is a student at Northeastern....he
    has no money but his parents are also very well-off.  I feel VERY VERY
    uncomfortable when he pays for much of anything because I know that his
    parents money is what is being spent on me...NOT his.  I try and do
    things that are inexpensive with him.....or I try to treat a little
    more often.
    
    Dating, for me, is about giving to the other person, not receiving or
    "expecting" things to be a certain way.  I'm hyper-sensitive to the
    other person's situation (especially financial), but at the same time,
    I refuse to go beyond MY means for a date as well.
    
    I guess it all comes down to the fact that when I'm dating someone, I'm
    enjoying their company.  If I wish to continue to enjoy that company,
    then I feel that it's my responsibility to contribute to that
    enjoyment...because, after all, I'm reaping the benefits of it.  
    
    I definitely don't force the issue of going Dutch all the time, but I 
    do have the philosophy of "what goes around comes around." I figure
    that if I'm enjoying the time together, it's my responsibility to
    contribute to it as well.
    
    Also, I wanted to say something else....the basenote author mentioned
    something about "calling him, but making sure not to call him too 
    often..." etc.  It sounds like you're trying to "play the game of
    dating."  Why not just relax and be yourself....if you want to do
    something, do it, if you don't, then don't do.
    
    If anything, you need to be true to yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  If you
    feel uncomfortable going Dutch on a date, talk with the guy and tell
    him why.... You might find out that he really wants to see you, but
    that he's strapped for money at the moment or something....  If you
    want to see Jazz, and you still feel uncomfortable going "Dutch", then
    go to some of the free jazz concerts that are offered in some places! 
    Or find something else that you two can enjoy together that doesn't
    cost EITHER of you any money!  
    
    I think it's wrong, however, to expect something of someone else that
    they can't afford to give you.  And I think it's wrong to expect
    someone to be something they aren't.
    
    kathy

    With a few exceptions, I essentially have always gone "dutch."  Tends
    to work out much better that way.  If I went out with people where
    there was a significant salary difference, I might have a different
    opinion.
    
    (Although, there was an article in yesterday's Wall Street Journal
    about a woman running a consulting service for men.  Seems she thinks
    there's a market for men who want to be "kept."  We've had
    sugar-daddy's, why not sugar-mommy's?)

    Thanks for all the quick replies.  Re. .7,  Maybe you're right
    about me being fortunate that he had the decency to ask if I would
    mind.  He does seem to say what he thinks.
    
    I always do bring the money just in case it's a dutch thing.  The
    way I feel is if you think of someone as just a friend, or maybe if
    it's a first date with someone...you offer to go dutch.  But, if you have 
    some romantic interests in someone and it's likewise  that it's nice if they
    treat and I kinda expect that.  After it is established that they are
    a boyfriend, then I go dutch at times, but not always.  I hope that there 
    are other women out there that feel this way, or I'm in trouble.  
    
    Even, if I'm in trouble, I'm pretty stubborn in my beliefs, old
    fashioned, back in time, whatever, but I probably won't change my 
    ideas about this.
    
    Not a feminist I guess,
    P
    
    
    

    I believe in the whoever asks pays rule.  However, if it is mutually
    decided upon, like a movie, or dinner, I think that the male should
    pay.  But if it is a concert or something, dutch is appropriate.  It
    all depends on the situation.
    
    Re: .0  I believe, IMHO, if you asked someone to go see some Jazz, it
    should at least be expected that you go dutch, but you probably should
    have offered to pick up the entire bill.
    
    It also depends on the relationship...
    
    Sus

    
    I'll ask a different question of the basenoter.  Do you sense
    "cheapness" on his part?  Does it spill over into other areas and
    things you can see (as in how he lives his life?)  Or is it truly
    just the "going Dutch" part that bothers you?
    
    For me, going Dutch is how I would go (but I've been in the same
    relationship for 9 years now, have a job and money, etc.).
    
    But I can't stand "cheap" people!
    
    where I'll make my own definition of "cheap" in its many forms -
    someone who has a hard time lending a buck if you're short, or is
    always talking about money - in its many forms, how "boo-hoo" they're
    sooooo poor, or trying to prove to you how much money they make,
    or always talking about their investments ad nauseum, they either
    overspend (but always just on themselves) or are misers with everyone,
    including themselves.
    
    So, does your "date" display any of these other qualities, and maybe
    what's really bugging you isn't "Dutch", but his cheapness! (if it
    exists).
    

    Thanks for the comments Kathy and also .12.  I think maybe .12 hit
    the nail on the head.  I don't think he is cheap, but I have been
    with some  cheap people with little class that can make a big deal 
    about treating me at McDonalds! Ha!  I want to avoid this at all costs!  
    I think I am a giving person, if not financially, then with my time and 
    caring, honest nature. I just expect the same and want to be
    appreciated also.  
    
    For the record, I'm no miser,
    
    P
    

    One of my real sticking points in my growth as a supporter of the
    feminist movement is my inability to go dutch or even let the woman I'm
    with pay. I went to see Thelma and Louise on Saturday and even though
    my companion to the event drove and came and got me and it seems like
    she is taking me out and it was her idea, (long sentence huh?) I
    wouldn't let her pay for the movie or the popcorn or the drink. I just
    don't feel right about it. If I'm in a store with a woman, I pickup the
    bill at the counter, (unless it's a major pile of money, I'm learnign a
    little judgement here) and sort quietly say "No, I've got it". Only
    once did someone put up an argument about it. Usually, I get, not dirty
    looks, but strange looks. This is a problem I have, I just don't feel
    it's right for a woman who is with me to pay. I need to rethink this
    somewhat, huh? Help me a little here, friends.
    
    PJ

re: .0

>                           but I figure if they ask to go dutch so soon
>    in a dating relationship, that will set a pattern for the future.

Just out of curiosity, what pattern or problem do you see being set?

-Jack

    Re: .15, good question Jack.  You've got me baffled on how to express
    myself on it.  I'll think about this.
    
    P

    I tend to think that the women I spend time with should bear an
    appropriate part of the effort (eg money, time etc) towards the common
    goal (which might be togetherness, warmth, fun, future, whatever). As I
    am a person of simple taste (but high expectations), the monetary cost
    never seems to be a problem.
    
    But perhaps things are different over here.
    
    Regards,
    Heinrich

I hate going dutch on a date.  Going dutch makes it feel more like a financial
transaction than a date.  It's fine with friends, but for me it doesn't feel
like a *date* unless someone treats someone else.  

For most of my life I have been in school and dated men who weren't in school,
so they almost always paid for every date, and I loved it.  Sometimes I felt
a little guilty, but I figured they made a lot more money so I didn't worry
about it.

When I graduated, and was still dating men, I tried to split the dates so that
whoever was making more money (usually him) paid more frequently, but that I
would treat some of the time.

When I started dating women, there was no protocol to rely on, and also most of
the women I dated were either students or worked in low-paying jobs.  So
I started paying for every date, and that was fine. It was easy and they almost
never protested.

Now occasionally I date a woman with whom I am financially equal and I admit
it makes me a little uncomfortable when the check comes.  because, like I said,
I hate going dutch.  but who pays?  I certainly won't expect her to pay, on 
the other hand, I don't want to set a pattern that I always pay.   Dutch is
very practical in these situations but I hate it.

To .0, maybe *you* should pay for a few dates. That way it isn't dutch - consider
it as a girlfriend buying a present for her boyfriend.  If you pay for a few
dates, he may feel more comfortable about treating for the rest.

D!

    Well, tonight is the date.  I'll let you know if I enjoyed the
    date, his company, and if I was actually bothered when it come 
    time to go dutch!
    
    All the comments have been helpful. Guys, keep putting your 2 cents
    in.
    
    
    
    P

    Money was always a problem for me too.  I'm not sure when it all
    started with Men paying for the date.  But actual "dating" didn't
    start 'til around 1920 with the sexual revolution and the flexibility
    women had in their lives...education, work,...
    
    I'll just relate my own experiences....I've found out, for the most
    part, that the guy will stop asking you out, if you aren't interested
    in him in the same way as he is in you.  Now, if you pay or go dutch,
    then he'll go, but it's only on friendship grounds not romance,
    unless he can get a freebie-sex.  So, if a guy asks me out, first
    date, I can't afford to pay, I'm somewhat interested in him, then
    he pays.  Even if I could afford to pay, this first date is on him,
    since he asked.  Also, just because he spends money on me doesn't
    mean I'm going to put out.  This one guy asked me out, I accepted,
    went to dinner and dancing.  Well, by the end of the night, I knew
    he wasn't really my type.  He walked me up the steps to my apartment
    and I offered him a cup of tea.  I didn't want any romance with
    him, thought we'd just get know each other a bit.  Well, it was
    time for me to go to bed and I wanted him to leave, so I had to
    bluntly tell him that.  At the door, I thanked him for the evening
    and said see you again some time, we'll keep in touch.  He was so
    upset that I didn't kiss him, he said is that all I get?  I should
    at least get a kiss.  He meant a long kiss.  I was totally angry.
     Told him, thanks for the night, but I didn't see it as an exchange
    of services.  I could have cooked my own dinner not to mention spent
    the time with my kids.  I paid for the sitter.  Sitters are not
    cheap.
                                 
    That's another thing, how do you not lead the guy on.  Are they
    all so dense, that just because you invite him over to chat, have
    a cup of coffee, that that implies he can have sex with you.  This
    bothers me.  Do you have to be so blunt at the onset, that you have
    to say, Hey, I may like you, I may not, but how about stopping by
    for a while and we can talk or play chess.
    
    Anyway, it's usually a touchy situation for me.  I don't have extra
    money for dating.  That extra money goes on my kids and clothes.
     So, I tell the guy upfront the situation.  He takes it or leaves
    it.    I must admit though, I do like the guy paying for the date.
     It's nice.  It's fun to go to the clubs and not have to spend a
    single cent for anything.  Those men do.  It kinda depends on the
    situation.  My sister and I take on a different personality at the
    bars.  It's all just for fun.  
    
    It works the same way though.  I'd probably not invest a lot of
    money on some guy if he didn't show same interest in me.  It's the
    exchange theory.  Whatever seems fair to you.  The whole situation
    depends.                                               
    
    This lawyer friend and I was dating.  He paid for everything, including
    the sitter.  He and I had a frank discussion.  Made me feel a lot
    more at ease.  I told him that I didn't like the power that seemed
    implied when the guy pays all the time, but that I just couldn't
    afford to pay for these kind of dates.  So, I would cook dinner
    for the both of us at my place or bring him wild flowers, whatever
    I could to show that I did appreciate him.  It worked out for us
    that way.
    
    This may be prejudiced, but I do think that most of time in typical
    male/female dating situations, it's the female that has what the
    male wants, SEX.  Most of the time, O.K. not all the time.  And
    the female can use that to her advantage.  I'm not saying that's
    good or bad, just that that is the way it is.
    
    I think I'll take a breath for a while.  This is such a iffy topic!                                          
    
    
    

    
    I guess I'm a lucky one - I haven't had any problems with this.  On any
    first date (or before it gets to that), I always make a point of
    discussing this - setting it straight.  My own feeling are that if the guy 
    have a significantly  larger income that I do, I think it's fair for him to 
    pay most of the time, simply because I can't afford it, or he can
    affored easily - but I don't ever _expect_ it. If we are pretty much 
    equally poor, I like to alternate paying, and I let him know. I would shy 
    away from a guy who felt strongly offended with my paying, not the type
    of person I like to spend time with.  I think also it matters in the way 
    you approach it - you have to take into consideration whether he is
    self conscious about it - shy, or has an ego problem, or is just
    indoctrinate with the "old fashioned" honor sort of thing. (If you like
    the guy enough to worry about it.)
    
    I don't like going dutch - I guess it feels less "special" when you're 
    sitting there after a romantic dinner, trying to divy up the bill. 
    
    Chuck, my boyfriend asked me out first, and he payed on that first date. 
    Since then, we usually alternate who pays, one time it's me, next time
    it's him.  We don't think about it, and there are no set "rules"
    - sometimes I pay a couple times in a row, sometimes he does.  We don't
    concern ourselves with it.  We just enjoy.  I will invite him to do 
    something special, and I will pay.  He will invite me out for something
    special, and he will pay.  If he's broke he and he really wants go out he 
    says so, and I pay if I have enough.  If I want to go out, and I'm
    broke, he does the same.  It's definitly a non-issue for us.  The first
    time I asked him out on a "date", I told him that I wanted to take
    _him_ out, he was very surprised, as being in the South, according to
    him most women are still pretty "old fashioned" about dating "rules". 
    He was surprised, but liked it - it made him feel "special".  I don't 
    think it's fair to _expect_ anyone to pay.  I don't _expect_ him to pay x 
    number of times, and he doen't _expect_ me to pay x number of times.  
    I wouldn't want to be with him it it was otherwise.  
    
    C. (-:
    
    
    

    
    With men who made more, they usually paid, unless I invited.
    With men who made less, I usually paid, unless they invited.
    With women, regardless of salary range and invitee, usually 
    we take turns treating each other to movies, dinner, presents, 
    flowers, and social pleasure baubles.  One night I'll pay for 
    everything, another night she will, or we'll take turns doing
    so throughout the evening.  I do this with platonic menfriends 
    as well.  Once I removed the male-female-sex-and-romance game,
    a protocol I fully bought into, life became much more equal.
    
    Carla
    

    Funny; some people commented that they only feel comfortable
    splitting the check once they're going with someone on a regular basis,
    and prefer to treat or be treated when dating someone new. For me it's
    the other way around; I feel *much* more comfortable splitting the
    check when I don't know someone well, or when there's no guarantee that
    whoever is treated this time will have - or want - an opportunity to
    treat the next. With friends (romantic or otherwise), I'm much
    more at ease with grabbing the check OR allowing myself to be treated.
    
    It's probably a power/control/vulnerability thing; a SMOHR. [A Simple
    Matter Of Human Relationships. ;-)]
    
    -b

RE:  Jody

That reminds me - I still owe you a desert!

RE:  Dutch

I usually assume Dutch these days even if I asked but was not
specific.  I usually say explicitly if I'm treating.  I found a long
time ago that some women got upset if I tried to pay the bill so I
guess I'm a bit wary of it.  I guess thinking about it, that
communication is the key.  You can always talk about it.  It might be
a good thing to work through and also find out about the other person.

I like to treat however especially if my partner makes a lot less than
me but I'm careful to ask if this is OK.  Some people feel like it can
be a power and control thing and aren't comfortable with it.  Now that
I'll be poor soon I hope my good karma comes back to treat me!

Another interesting question these days is what the hell a date is how
do you know if it's a date!  I have trouble telling.  Cynthia Hamiel
[sic?] had some funny things to day about dating these days (at least
in the het world) in "Sex Tips For Girls".  So I've decided to call a
spade a spade and call a date a date.  Of course, many times, I'm not
sure if I want it to be a date so I like to be fuzzy.  Boy, the 90's
are confusing!

peace,
john

I always felt more comfortable splitting the check too if I don't know the
other person well because I simply don't want them to think (or think I
might think that) they owed me. But alas, very few of the women I've dated
offer to pay or go dutch on the first date whether they initiated the date
or I did.  That in itself won't kill the relationship for me but it is a 
negative.

Also, I have the same experience as those that like to treat
alternately.  I love to be treated and to treat.  Another advantage of
this scheme is that the one that makes less money can treat at a place
in their price range.

RE:  Sex and treating

It's funny.  I had the opposite experience recently.  It felt really
funny to be saying things like "I'm not ready yet" and "It wouldn't be
right for me" but I'm glad I did.  I feel as I man I am supposed to
want it all the time and it just isn't so.

So maybe things are changing!  

re: .24
    
>That reminds me - I still owe you a desert!

    How about the Mojave?
    
    ;)
    

Anything for you!  I'll get right on it!  ;-)

john

        I agree with 862.12, is he possibly being cheap?  I don't necessary
        like going dutch either, and it bothers me particularly if the man
        suggest it unless we have been together for a while and I know him
        well enough to know his circumstances.  
       
        There have been times when I offered to take a friend out, as a way
        of showing appreciation for his kindness and generousity.  I much 
        more preferred it if I made the offer.  I would do other things too 
        such as inviting him over for a home cooked meal, small personal
        gifts and things of this sort. 
    
        If you believe he cannot afford to constantly pick up the bill
        then why not suggest doing things that are not costly.
    
        There are some people who are inherently cheap and prefer to keep
        their expense of dating at a minimum. 
        

>        There are some people who are inherently cheap and prefer to keep
>        their expense of dating at a minimum. 

    Yes, and some of them are women.  This is not to say that any women who
expects the man to pay for her is inherently cheap, but that the phenomenon
exists in women as well as men.  Spending money on people is not the same as
treating them well; too many people confuse money with love, and I think it's
a shame.

    My philosophy is that the one that can afford to pay, pays.  If both of
you can afford it, go dutch.  Similarly, I think anyone who suggests activities
out of their price range should question their motives, as they may be more 
interested in fringe benefits than in the other person's company.

    I am somewhat bothered by those who say "the man should pay, because he's
probably making more anyway", because I've been in the situation where I was
known to be making more than the man I was dating, and he never let me forget
it... especially not when we went out to dinner.  To me, that's not the point.
The point is that we were both making enough to be able to pay for the dinner
if we wanted to.  When our relationship ended, I felt that he had taken
advantage of me because of all the things I ended up paying for.  That's a
situation I never want to either cause or experience again.

    Sharon

Back in my long-distant past, when I had some pretty old-fashoned and sexist
ideas about relationships, I was ADAMANT about paying for everything.  I
figured that the way to "get a girl" was to try and impress the hell out of
her until she just COULDN'T say "no" to such an obviously worthy male.....
Part of this involved "proving" my financial health and suitability as a
provider by being able to pay for anything we did together.  Flexing the
financial muscles for show, as it were...

There was the one time when I and a (female) friend both knocked off work
at the same time, and she asked if I'd like to go out for some drinks...
I had no money in my pocket, and this was before I had an ATM card, so I
made up an excuse and declined.  Today, of course, I'd have no problem
confessing my temporary poverty and asking if she'd be willing to spot me
a coupla bucks... but back then I felt as though my value as a male would
diminsh greatly in her eyes if I'd done that...

These days I tend to prefer either going dutch or alternating who picks
up the tab.  My tastes are GENERALLY modest enough so that this usually
doesn't present a problem 8-)

Ya know, I just thought of something:  why should there be a difference
between "dating" outings, and the other kinds of casual outings that most
of us take part in?  When a bunch of folks at the office say "let's go out
for lunch", there's no agonizing over who pays for what; it's generally
ASSUMED that everyone pays for him/herself.  Occasionally someone will
be feeling generous and will pick up the tab for the table; when that
happens, it's considered a nice bonus, but it's hardly EXPECTED.  Why
should dating be any different?

Is it, perhaps, because "dating" involves probing to see if an intimate
relationship is possible, and money is a stand-in for many other things
(power, security, whatever)?

On a different note (maybe this should be in a different note?):

Re: .20 (SRATGA::SCARBERRY_CI)

>    That's another thing, how do you not lead the guy on.  Are they
>    all so dense, that just because you invite him over to chat, have
>    a cup of coffee, that that implies he can have sex with you.  

Actually, I've been a victim of exactly the OPPOSITE kind of density...
where a woman wanted sex with me... so after a date she invited me to
her place, we got comfortable, etc. etc. etc...  I, being aware of
the problems women have with aggressive guys, assume nothing.  Turns
out LATER I find out that she really would have wanted me to jump her,
and she wondered why I didn't "take the hint".  Sigh.

>    Do you have to be so blunt at the onset, that you have
>    to say, Hey, I may like you, I may not, but how about stopping by
>    for a while and we can talk or play chess.

Well... I think a good attitude to take (and this applies to life in
general) is to hang loose, but be prepared for anything.  Being too
blunt at the outset can put a damper on things... better to just go
with the flow and see how things progress, and perform mid-course
corrections if things start going in a direction you don't want to
go in...

I'll stop now... this rathole is getting pretty deep (anyone got a
light?)

--jim

    re .20. In my own case it isn't a sex thing. I don't expect sex just
    because I bought dinner or the movie or whatever at the mall. I don't
    even look for it or steer conversations to those lines. Unless everyone
    is being silly. I've just been brought up old fashioned and that says
    the man pays. I learning otherwise. I have one woman friend that will
    pay if I'm broke, but she lives inPennsylvania and I haven't seen her
    in 3 years. Not a DECcie. I still don't let her buy if we shop. We have
    never considered a physical relationship and won't ever. We are like ..
    No that's wrong we are family, if not by blood, then by more then
    friendship. 
    
    Letting a woman treat or pick up half the tab is difficult for me. I
    never know if it's right unless she comes right out and says so. I
    usually just brush it off. I know it's somewhat Chauvinistic. It's just
    me. I can except everything else in this equality of the sexes, but
    spending.
    
    PJ

    re.32 [and previous]
    
    [ we interrupt this dicussion because Annie is _seriously_ confused
      ... ]
    
    PJ, I believe that I need some clarification on 'when we shop.'
    
    When I first saw that phrase, I envisioned some gallant friend trying
    to cover the costs of one of my mad sprees at Urban Outfitters. [and I
    thought "whatta _deal_!!!" ... ;^) ]
    
    Are you talking about 'shopping' -- in general and when you're there
    -- or are we talking about the check-out line at the Star Market?
    
    I've never _met_ a man, old-fashioned or otherwise, willing to
    underwrite my shopping urges ... but I have known a few that feel
    compelled to buy my strawberries and lime juice.
    
      Annie
    

    john - "what's a date?" - GOOD $#^% QUESTION!!!
    
    as i'm getting more used to being "grown-up" (who me?), it's getting
    easier to make sure "dates" are labelled as such beforehand.  it's
    still pretty tough if the person is a "hang-around" kind of friend...
    
    re who pays
    
    jeez, i don't think i'm being old-fashioned when i say i like someone
    other than me to pay for stuff like dates.  i don't think it's grounds
    for my feminist liscence to be revoked, either.  after all, if the guy
    wants to spend money on me, that's his decision.  if i offer to treat
    and he insists on grabbing the bill - well, that's him out $xx, and *i*
    can spend my money on something else.
    
    that's not old-fashioned of me; that's opportunistic and cheap of me.
    
    that said, i get money-guilt and so i treat frequently when i'm with
    someone i like.  when it's a friend and i feel like i'd be taking
    advantage of them (by eating lots of expensive food), i go dutch.  the
    preferred method for when i'm in a heavy-duty love affair is to
    alternate treats - keeping in mind both income and expenses so it
    balances out acceptably in the long run.
    
    lee

    Ann, I've been known to tell a woman, while shopping, "I gotta go to
    the restroom and then the bookstore. Here's $500.00. Let me know if
    that's enough." Also in the Star Market. Although, I frequent
    Alexander's and Demoulas' myself. It's a fault of mine. I'm sorry. :-)
    
    PJ

RE:                    <<< Note 862.34 by AV8OR::TATISTCHEFF >>>

>    other than me to pay for stuff like dates.  i don't think it's grounds
>    for my feminist liscence to be revoked, either.  after all, if the guy

lee, I heard that there will be a meeting of the Feminist License
Review Board (FLRB) this afternoon to discuss this matter.  I'll say a
few good words for you.

;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

    I had a situation when I first started dating my boyfriend.  We had
    probably just started becoming, em, intimate I believe, and feelings
    were sort of at a delicate balance.  Anyways, we were out to dinner
    with three other people, one a couple.  My boyfriend had to leave early
    to go somewhere, so he left some money before he left.  When it came
    time to pay the bill, it was clear that he hadn't even left enough to
    cover himself, much less me.
    
    One of my friends made a big deal out of it (she's sort of a mothering
    type with her friends) and I felt bad and embarrassed.  Well, I
    thought, maybe this guy is cheap.  Maybe I'm not being treated well,
    etc.
    
    I got the courage up some time later to tell my boyfriend about how I
    felt.  Well, it turns out we had different mindsets about it.  I felt
    like, I pay dutch with all of my girlfriends all the time and, damn it,
    I want to be treated special!  I wanted it to be different from going
    out with my girlfrinds, I wanted it to be romantic!  He felt that he
    had always treated women he "dated", but he felt that this relationship
    was more important than those "dates" and so he was treating me like he
    treated his guy friends (which to him was more special than dating). 
    Funny I looked at going out with my girlfriends as less special, huh?
    
    As, I assume, with most relationships, these things iron out after you
    start seeing each other and you figure out whose resources are more or
    less depleted come paying time.
    
    But I have to say that it really helped to get out on the table, so to
    speak, what each of us had for mental models of "treating" or "going
    Dutch" or "dating" or whatever.  Especially if you're both open to
    hearing the whole background and feelings associated with them.  You
    learn alot about each other.
    

    Just another thought, I heard on National Public Radio recently...  A
    woman recently wrote a book about money and relationships/family. 
    Anyone else hear of it?  She talked about how money really has meaning
    attached to it for virtually everybody.  It's never just about money,
    but about love, etc.  I can't be very articulate about this because I
    barely remember the argument, but I thought it was very interesting.
    
    She talked about how for poor families, money is pooled together for
    the family's survival.  In wealthy families, money is passed down for
    generations, but you're not supposed to spend it -- it's to be passed
    along and kept in the family.  For the middle class, it's very
    confusing.  People don't know what to do because this is the first time
    the middle class had really had any money that could be passed along to
    children, but there's the question of whether they should or not.
    
    I realize that this is a side issue, but I thought it might shed light
    on the dilemma, most of us being roughly middle class (assumedly, based
    on our jobs at DEC).  Men and woman are also in a transitional time
    period where there are no hard and fast rules -- we have to make them
    up as we go along.  And it's very confusing.
    
    It's also reassuring to hear that I'm not the only one who has any
    emotional stuff tied to money.  Apparently, according to this author
    anyways, most people do.
    
    
    

    I had quite a surprise when my current relationship was in its 
    beginning stages.  I had been friends with this man for approx.
    1 year before the relationship went through some type of metamorphisis.
    I was used to going dutch with him (I always go prepared to pay
    for myself no matter who I'm with) I had even treated him on occasion.
    The treating was never reciprocated.   A side note, he makes about
    1-1/2 times more than me but, he makes it over a 9 month period
    seasonal period and has to stretch it to cover the rest of the year
    or any period when work is slow.
    
    Mind you, I'm rather low on the financial food chain and I don't
    have alot of money to spend on non-essential things.  As we began
    to spend more and more time together doing more and more things
    that required money it began to be a financial burden.  When I'd
    say I didn't have enought money to do something he would say he
    would loan me the money (it was always expected that I would pay
    back the money (even if it was a dollar) that I had borrowed).
    Well I didn't have enough at the time and I really didn't have enough
    to pay back a loan either.
    
    Anyway, we have been in counseling for other issues and are learning
    to communicate on things.  One of those things is money.  I had
    to communicate to him that when I say I don't have the money, it's
    not just that I don't have it now.  It's usually that I just don't
    have it, period.  It is then up to him to decide whether he wants
    to cover what I'm lacking so we can still do the thing or if he
    maybe really doesn't want to do it that bad and can think of some
    less expensive alternative.  We negotiate the alternative.  Treating
    was a foreign concept to him.  He comes from an unusual background.
    We've talked about it and are both working on treating each other 
    occasionally.
    
    I was sort of spoiled.  The man I dated just prior to  this one
    was of the belief that since he made so much more than I did he
    would pay.  I had to practically force him to allow me to treat
    occasionally.  
    
    What a difference.  I'm glad we're working it out.
    
    Jan

I get the feeling that the money is less important than the symbol.
I won't make someone I like uncomfortable about the "money as power"
issue....my weekly lunch date, John is 50 years old and a delightful
friend - special in every way.  He insists on paying every lunch.
I let him, not because I need him to show me he likes me - after all,
he does show up every week, but because it makes him feel better.  I
also have friends I always go dutch with because I like paying my own
way - no one "owns" me or my time when I'm paying my own way.  They
don't mind, nor do I.

If you like someone, then worry about the quality of the time spent
together...don't keep score on who is paying what.  It sounds like
the man in .0 is well centered and self-assured about the money thing
in order to ask if it is okay to go dutch...has it occurred to you
that he might have really wanted to see you and simply not have had
the money to buy both your evenings?  Dating is horribly expensive these
days....and if you expect him to always pick up the tab, then you can
also expect to spend a great deal of time NOT GOING OUT.  Frankly, if
I like someone, I like to SEE him....and that means carrying half the
financial burden.  Besides, my "old-fashioned" brain can calculate up
the $$ spent and know it is much more likely that a man will expect
to see "a return on his investment" after he spends $100.00 for a nice
evening - than if he spends $50.00 and I spend $50.00.  So, my rule
is "go dutch".....

Except when I date John....then, I just make sure we always go to a 
very inexpensive restaurant for lunch...he sure messes up my record
for being a "liberated woman". 8^}

    Well, I ended up finding out about 30 minutes before my date with
    .0 that he cancelled on me.  He had my work phone number, but didn't 
    have the decency to call me at work earlier in the day.  Instead, he 
    left a message on my answering machine. He apologized and said he'd
    call me.  I haven't heard from him since (over 2 weeks ago).  What
    a wimp!
     
    So much for going dutch!  
    
    P

>>>>>I haven't heard from him since (over 2 weeks ago).  What
>>>>>    a wimp!
     
Oh, the old "how do I get out of this one?" ploy.  Sorry you had to go through
this....he is obviously conversant in the language of "well-adjusted modern
male", but not really very mature or well-adjusted.  It still shouldn't turn
you off of going dutch - as I said, what with the cost of dating, going dutch
will mean you get out much more often ---- unless you find someone with mucho
spending money.

    I hate doing arithmetic, especially after a meal, so I either try to
    alternate the tab, or (if I'm out with a poor friend) just pay for
    everything.  When I was poor, the people (women and men) I hung out
    with often paid my way, so I enjoy balancing out the ol' karmic scales.
    
    I admit the idea of paying for someone solely because of their sex
    strikes me as bizarrely distasteful.
    
    Ray

    Ray, yes, cosmic karmic scales!  When I was a starving (well, not
    really :-) student, I was bought many a dinner.  So now I figure it's
    only fair that I, in turn, pay for dinners and what-not for college
    students etc.  If they protest, I explain this to them, and say they
    can pick up their chare by taking some *other* college student out to
    dinner when they graduate.  :-)
    
    D!

'Tis true that the fellow may be a turd... BUT!

What if he lost his job the day or week before you asked him to go to out?
Embarrassed about not having a job, he suggested dutch instead...
Then, upon review of his fincances, discovered he couldn't even afford that!

... sad things happen to people and sometimes they are embarrassed! --In
addition to being very unhappy.

Just a thought...