Conference turris::womannotes-v3

>    How do you cope with knowing that
>    there's nothing that you can do?  My ex was just awarded joint custody
>    of my two daughers (2 1/2 and 1 year old).  He has a history of drug
>    and alcohol abuse and had supervised visits for the past year.  
    
    Polite way to do it.....involve the Dept of social services or whatever 
the state agency is that supervises parental care of children in these 
cases. Not sure how you do that, I never had the problem to deal with....

    More effective way to do it.....find a local cop who is understanding 
of your fears and problems......get your ex busted for even small amounts 
of drugs and then go back to court. Better yet, make sure it is when the 
kids are with him...dirty pool to say the least, but it does bring some 
reality to the dream world.....

    My opinionated ideas are not based on experiance or reality of how to cope 
with these situations.....only suggestions.... 8^)

    Vic H

    Do we know that the Note's author is a fit mother? No. What's wrong
    with having joint custody? Did the mother smoke pot with the father
    before they decided they couldn't stand each other? Why is she assuming
    he'll be irresponsible with his own children?
    
    The anger of divorce is still very evident here and it has nothing to
    do with the children. 
    
    To the mother: Please re-focus on rebuilding your social life. Not on
    getting back at the "B*****d". He is and always will be the children's
    father. 

    re: .2
    What I am hearing is the father is a drug addict and alcoholic and any
    practicing addict is *ABSOLUTELY NOT* reliable.  Obviously there 
    was a good reason for the father to have supervised visits for a year.  
    
    <flame on>
    Have you read the papers lately?  How many children die each year because 
    the courts look the other way when there is *OBVIOUS* signs of abuse 
    going on?  How many children are returned to parents who just keep 
    abusing them.  We had *ANOTHER* case here in Washington just last week 
    where a woman and her boyfriend left her children ages 8 months and 3 
    years at home alone while they went to the store to buy beer.  There was 
    a fire and both children died.  Both of these people had been turned
    into Child Protective Services numerous times AND NOTHING WAS EVER
    DONE! What I am hearing is the mother being very concerned that her 
    children are in a safe environment, i.e. not in a home where drugs and
    alcohol are being used heavily.  Every child deserves to be in a safe
    environment.
    <flame off>
    
    Maybe you need to reread the base note and hear the concern that is
    expressed there, instead of interpreting it as another case of
    male-bashing.........
    
    Karen

    
    Yes, and JUST BECAUSE HE FOUGHT FOR JOINT CUSTODY DOESN'T MEAN HE LOVES
    HIS CHILDREN.  There must've been a very good reason for his having
    supervised visitation.
    
    CQ

    Re:last few replies and base note... remember, we are only seeing one
    side of the story here. Unless you know what is really going on its
    kinda hard to assume the the father is unfit.

    Re:0 And why were the visits supervised? You stated that he has a
    history of drug and alcohol abuse, could you please tell us more about
    it? Was he ever charged with any thing or is it something that you fell
    he has abused?
    
    REK

Re: 4

One reason people fight for custody is that having custody, either sole
or joint, is a path through which they can continue to hurt their ex.
I swear.  I've heard people who admitted that's why they fought.

-d

    
    
    The problem here is that this mother is concerned for the well
    being of her children.  Regardless of whether or not either parent
    is a fit parent, these children have to live with both.  It is
    wrong not to allow children access to both mother and father.
    Unfortunately, the mother feels the father may harm the children.
    
    If there is no evidence of abuse to these kids there is no way the
    court will stop the visitation.  I understand and feel for the base
    noter, but you have to let your kids see thier dad.  Did he ever
    abuse them when you two were still married?  Did you not let him near
    them while still married if he was drunk or stoned?  I know of a few
    NCparents who smoke pot, but NOT while the children are around.
    Your ex may be doing the same thing.
    
    Could you tell us why he was awarded supervised visitation?  That would
    help try to understand some of this.   Also, did the judge give you a
    reason why he felt that this supervised visitation was no longer
    needed?  
    
    I know this will sound harsh, but you are divorced.  Your kids will
    bear the brunt of this pain.  There is little you can do other than
    controlling what happens to them when they are with you.  Yes that 
    is not fair, but spliting families up is not fair either.  My dad and
    mom split because he abused alcohol.  We went to see him on the
    weekends.  He never once abused us, nor did he drink when we visited
    him.  However, while he was living with us he was quite often drunk.
    You have to believe that your kids will be able deal with this, and
    they will each in thier own way.
    
    Michele

    More on the specifics:
    
    I filed for divorce when I was 7 weeks pregnant with my second child. 
    The reason I did this is because counciling was not working.  My ex
    assumed even more so when he learned I was pregnant that I would never
    leave him.  Two months after we married, he started selling drugs.  I
    learned when his dealer started calling regularly for money.  I
    finally paid him so that he would stop calling.  When I was 7 months
    pregnant with my first child, my ex was arrested for drunk driving.  He
    lost his license for 3 months for refusing to take the breathalyer.  He
    was drunk.  We paid the fine.
    
    Began counciling sometime thereafter.  Oh, he quit his job five months
    after we were married (he had been there 13 years), said he couldn't
    handle it anymore, too stressful.  Didn't work for quite sometime, said
    he was on vacation - didn't even look for a job because he knew he
    could find one immediately.  That didn't happen and he went from one
    minimum wage job to the next while I was paying all the bills.  The
    house was mine before we married, so I was awarded that in the divorce
    once he signed the deed over to me.  I had changed the deed.
    
    Those are some of the specifics.  Someone asked if I am a fit mother. 
    Of course I will say that I am - No I do not do drugs.  My ex and I
    had agreed prior to our marriage that he would stop smoking pot as soon
    as I stopped smoking cigarettes.  Well, I haven't smoked a cigarette in
    2 1/2 years, but he could never quit pot.  After I was cleaning out his
    things I found evidence of other drugs.  But I really didn't know when
    we were married.  We were only married for three years.
    
    I should have divorced him sooner, but I do not regret having my
    children.  I love them very much and wouldn't change that aspect of my
    marriage for the world.  I too believe that the children should know
    their father, but I am afraid of overnight visitation.  He is picking
    them up Saturday for the day, and I think they will be all right.  I
    really don't know why he would want them over night when they wake up
    two or three times anyway (one is teething).
    
    Well, that's a little more to the story.  I may have forgotten some,
    but there's a lot to it. 
    
    Judi
    

    Re: .8
    
    Thank you for clarifying some of the issues. I don't have much sympathy
    for drug dealers. If he's still dealing and you can't get redress out
    of the courts and  you care about the children perhaps you should move
    out of the state and send him pictures once in a while, through a
    relative. Give him a chance to mend his ways, though. He can't be all
    bad if he let you have your house back and doesn't mind taking care of
    children who still wake up in the middle of the night.
    
    I would warn you about the people who see sensational abuses in every
    corner. The media sells a lot of papers and movies but the statistics
    don't back them up. Whenever you request statistics they give you
    numbers but no firm sources. 
    

    >>                <<< Note 945.9 by HSOMAI::BUSTAMANTE >>>
    >>               -< THINGS MAY NOT BE AS BAD AS YOU THINK >-
    
    
    Since *she* lived it and you didn't, why don't you let *her* be the
    judge of how bad it is?
    
    E Grace

    You might also realize that you are suggesting that she break the law. 
    Kidnapping is kidnapping, whether it is done by the mother or father.
    
    I do believe it is a DEC P&P no-no to encourage people to break the
    law.
    
    E Grace

    
    
    Judi
    
    You stated that you want your kids to know thier father, but that
    you are afraid of overnight visits.  Could you tell us what exactly
    you are afraid of?  Were there any times while you were married that
    you were not in the home overnight while he was with your children?
    
    Is it that you are afraid that your kids might need you?  It will be
    tough at first, but you will in time get used to it.  When my
    boyfriend's daughter first started spending overnights her mother would
    call at least five times during the night to make sure that the child
    was ok.  It was annoying because he felt she did not think he was
    capable of taking care of the child.  However, he has and still is
    doing a great job with what little time he does get to spend with her.
    You have to try to reassure yourself that they will be ok.  
    
    Also, they are going to be a little confused if this is a first for
    them.  However, if thier father has been a constant active person in
    thier lives it should not be too difficult because they hopefully
    will feel secure with him.  
    
    The courts have awarded him the visitation.  Even though you may not
    be comfortable with it, try to find a way to make it as easy on your
    kids as you can.  I can understand why he wants them to be overnight.
    If you were used to seeing your children every day, and suddenly you
    only got to see them a few hours a week, having them overnight is
    very important.  It is now a special event which once was a normal
    event. 
    
    
    As a side note, if you were aware of all of this substance abuse while
    you were married, why was this not brought out in court?  Is he abusive
    under the influence?  Or are you more worried that he will not be 
    able to handle an emergency should one arise?  
    
    Michele

    	I cannot give any advise to the base noter only feelings I have as
    a farther, and some information I obtained while talking to a child
    investigator. A child investigator is one who interviews parents and
    children, visits homes, and looks for signs of abuse. 

    	I cannot tell you how strongly I feel for my children (wife also I
    am still married). But I told the investigator that if it came down to
    it I might even consider arming myself and physically preventing the
    authorities from taking my children. I told him that even thinking
    this was incredible for me, and that I knew it would not help my case,
    but if I could not do anything else I would be prepared to die while
    trying to keep my children. I know this is extreme, but in some
    instances maybe rational thought is not called for but action is. 

    	What led up to that thought was statements made by the
    investigator. He said that if he thought a child was being abused or
    was exposed to an abusive situation, he could remove the child
    immediately. He told me he would not have to go to court until after
    the child was removed from the premises. I told him that I thought that
    was too much power for ONE individual to have. I agreed that it may be
    necessary in some cases, but what if he made a mistake! It would mean
    putting the family through hell, both parents and children would be
    impacted emotionally. 

    	From there we got to discussing what abuse was. His definition was
    radically different from mine. He thought an open hand slap on the hand
    or a** was a form of abuse, I didn't especially when letting the child
    continue could result in SERIOUS injury or death. But there was some
    common ground and he did seem intelligent enough to know what was abuse
    and what was not.

    	My only suggestion would be to have a child investigator visit your
    ex's home and interview the children and adults living there. These are
    tough decisions and noone can tell you what the "right" thing to do is.
    You have reach that decision yourself. I would hate to see anything
    happen to any child, but I would also hate to see a parent denied
    access to his/her child.

    						-Keith
    					      

    As I said before, I was pregnant when I got divorced so he really
    doesn't know my one year old (today as a matter of fact), I should have
    said our one year old.  The reason I am afraid for overnight visits is
    that they will miss me, that they will cry in the middle of the night
    and he will not go to them, that he will take off and leave them with
    his roommates for one reason or another.  
    
    He is verbally abusive when he is drinking, he never physically abused
    me.  But he blames me for his TOTAL drug and alcohol addiction.  That
    was brought out in court.  He had himself admitted to a rehab clinic
    just before our divorce and I obtained the medical information.  He has
    a TERRIBLE hatred for me that he keeps hidden most of the time, but it
    was brought out in court also.  He lives in a fantasy world, comes from
    an alcoholic, abusive home.  His father is a recovering alcoholic and
    used to really hit the kids.  His father favors my ex because even
    though he wasn't the oldest, he was his namesake.  
    
    I have very mixed feelings here.  Since my ex won't tell me who his
    roommates are, says he doesn't know one of their names, I really have a
    hard time wanting my children to spend time where I don't have any idea
    what they will face.  I DO need a break, but would really wished that
    he only get daytime visitation until the kids are old enough to really
    talk.  My 2 1/2 year old obviously talks, but she doesn't understand a
    lot of what is going on.  She was only 9 months old when we separated.
    
    I really did think about moving, but don't think that will solve
    anything.  He could be awarded half year custody and that would be even
    worse. 
    
    Judi
    

    Judi,
    This is all IMHO, but I feel that you have a basis for concern.  You
    *KNOW* from first-hand experience what it is like living with a
    practicing alcoholic/addict.  People who are addicted only have one
    goal, to get the next drink/drug and they don't care who they walk over
    or hurt to obtain that goal, including children.  Alot of your fears are 
    based on your first hand experience with him and are probably valid.  
    
    My advice, for whatever it is worth, is to document *EVERYTHING*. 
    Dates, times, condition the kids left in and were returned home in.
    Figure out some way to teach your 2 1/2 year old to contact you in case
    they are left alone.  
    
    I share your concern about your kids.
    
    Karen

    Thank you Karen.  Sometimes I wonder if it's just my motherly fear. 
    But I know that it's not.  I'm trying to teach my oldest to use the
    phone, and she really likes talking on it.  I just have to teach her
    our phone number.
    
    If I'm REALLY lucky, my ex will decide now that he has joint custody
    (and that's really what he was after), that he doesn't want them to cut
    into his social time, because he does have a few girlfriends, or so he
    says.  And I did meet one when my oldest was in the hospital a few
    months ago.
    
    Thank you for your support. 
    Judi
    

One thing to be careful of, Judi, is not to pass on your fear to your kids.

They should be encouraged to be comfortable enough to tell you if
something is going wrong, but they shouldn't be "scared" of their
father, or being with their father will be damaging to them regardless
of whether he abuses them or not.  If he *does* abuse them, any fear
of him you have instilled in them will just make them less likely to
tell your or authorities because they are scared; and if he *doesn't*
abuse them, then their relationship with their perfectly reasonably
father will be damaged.

You said their father was verbally abusive to you when drunk - was he
every verbally abusive to the children?  Has he drunk around the children
before?

D!

    He used to drink when the baby went to bed, but he was never verbally
    abusive to her.  She thinks the world of him, he always gives her candy
    and pennies.  For the past year, he has taken her to breakfast almost
    every Sunday.  For the past month, he's been allowed to drive with the
    two of them and taken them both to breakfast.  My oldest thinks the
    restaurant is Daddy's house.
    
    But, in front of the children I pretend that everything is fine.  And
    seem to get excited about their father's visits.  
    
    Judi
    

    Re. .10
    
    I stand by my title. She is not certain of anything remotely resembling
    abuse of their children.
    
    

    
    
    Folks,  let's remember that this is not a court of law.  We don't have
    to prove things here.  We can share fears and ask for support and
    information.  I would ask that folks be careful if both parties in
    a dispute are DEC employees.  Otherwise, I think this file can be a
    place where we can ask for and give each other support without being
    given the 3d degree.
    
    Justine - Womannotes comod

oh, stalwart fellow for sticking by your guns!
    
    re: .9
    
>    I would warn you about the people who see sensational abuses in every
>    corner. The media sells a lot of papers and movies but the statistics
>    don't back them up. Whenever you request statistics they give you
>    numbers but no firm sources. 
    
    I would warn you about the people who gloss over personal tragedies and
    abuses because the statistics don't support their bruises or
    bankruptcies or anguish.  
    
    Flesh and blood is the firmest source of testimony I know.
    
    -Jody

    RE: -1
    
    I don't mean to gloss over anything, just not contribute to
    unnecessaryly alarming a mother who's already having a bad time dealing
    with the typical divorce problems. You may have noticed that in her
    later notes she admits her ex was quite loving with his children. 

Judi,

Hi,,,  ahh, I'm usually read only but I've gotta say a few things..

1. I don't think that the advice offered in this conference is really
   gonna help this situation much. (Don't get me wrong noters, I understand  
   that you may all be very concerned and all, but lets face it.. If
   something should happen to Judi's children, where will we be ?  She'll
   be left to face it alone..  knowing, she knew all along something was
   bound to happen)  All your analyzing aint gonna do diddly..

2. It may take some doing, and you may have to have a ton of patience,
   but the suggestion Vic entered about Social Services is right on the
   money.  It's one of the only ways of getting the custody rulling reviewed.

-----

  I know this for a fact, I've got a brother inlaw who was
  in the same straight you were in.  (the EX) Mother was into a whole lotta 
  bad stuff,, one day was sleeping on the sofa while the kids were playing with
  a can of hair spray and  a bic lighter..  Can blew off in Daughters face.. 
  luckily the   burns were minor to what they could have been but I wont 
  sugar coat it,, she was a mess  But the point is:  

  As the kids uncle, I was a little worried for them.  I knew her, and I knew
  how off the wall she could be.. I lived next door to them for four years.
  So I even wrote a letters to the DSS, Lawyers, etc.etc..  Explaining things
  I'd sen, and in summary, she was unfit.. PERIOD.
	-  ---  but it made little difference.  Mind you this was after the
   fact...

  Please understand, I'm not trying to scare you, worse then you appear
  to be already..

	In this case....

  The potential of something bad happening was there, and no one listened.


  Why ? I was told 1st, because I was on my Brother inlwas side..
  and 2, because we were trying to contest custody against the mother.  
  the way I hear it from the lawyer, is that taking it away from the father
  may be easier.  I can't say for sure, this was a few years ago.)

So this is why I'm suggesting you start consulting with social services.
And don't expect them to JUMP all over the ex.  right now, he has every 
right to what the court has granted..  As sad as it may be..  but at
least get someone to hear you out, and be there for you, so at least,
hopefully, one _minor_ bad incident will be all it'll take to change this
joint custody. (Which I think is a CROCK anyway.)

Eventually, your ex will lose his struggle for domination of the children,
which probably is just another way to keep tabs on you.  Play his little
game, but with your eyes WIDE opened.  Got to DSS, and write letters,.
document EVERY visit and anything you noticed, saw, or heard from your 
children. I'm quite serious here.  Keep a record!  You can bet he wont,
and wont have a leg to stand on if it comes to a custody fight, and he's
been neglegent.  You'll have written proof of all incidents.  And do stay
in touch with your lawyer...  he's gotta be there for you.

Best of luck,,,

back to read only!

/r

    
    
    I agree with all the advice about consulting with DSS, documenting
    everything, and what you're already doing -- teaching your child to use
    the phone, etc. sounds great.  But I think you might also try to work
    things out with him (with regard to the kids).  I can't imagine that 
    he'll really want to have 1 or 2 babies with him overnight (unless he
    has a girlfriend to take care of them), so maybe you can get around some 
    of the problems by suggesting day-visits and being flexible so those
    can happen more easily.  I'd still pursue the formal channels, but sadly, 
    I don't think the courts do a very good job in these cases, and DSS is 
    overwhelmed and understaffed.  Maybe you could offer to pick up or drop 
    off the kids so that you can meet the roomates and maybe some neighbors, 
    too.  If there are any problems, neighbors might notice, and if they know 
    you, that will help.
    
    It seems like unless your ex is absolutely awful to the kids, your only
    hope is to maintain a cordial relationship with him as concerns the
    kids and appeal to his common sense or self interests so that you can
    create the best possible situation for your kids.  On the bright side,
    maybe he will do the right thing and only take them for short visits
    where he knows that he can care for them properly.
    
    Good luck --
    
    Justine

    
    
    Re the folks who think it strange that a father would want to
    have his kids stay overnight.
    
    I know this is a small nit,but it really bothers me.  Why is it
    difficult to understand why a noncustodial parent who does not
    have full physical custody (ie not live with the kids full time)
    would want to have the children for an overnight visit?  Have
    any of you been witness to this type of thing first hand? 
    
    I have watched a child who has lived with both parents for a short
    time be yanked back and forth between both parents homes after they
    split up.  The mother also beleived that the motivation behind the
    father wanting the child to stay overnight was just a way for him
    to control the mother.  This is bs.  This father was geniunely caring
    of his child and the overnights were very very important to him as
    well as to the child.  Sometimes such simple things as giving a child
    a bath or reading a child a bedtime story can give a limitless amount
    of joy to a parent who did once regularly get to do that,but due to
    circumstances no longer is allowed to do so.
    
    Please do not assume that it is just a power play here.  From what
    the base noter has stated these kids father has has constant weekly
    contact with both of their children.  Surely if he was only trying 
    to control the mother he would make it a point to make this woman's
    life miserable.  The most important thing is to allow the children
    access to both parents.  If he truly did not care for their children
    why would he go through the expense both financially and emotionally
    to maintain a relationship with their children?
    
    Maybe the base noter should put this note in the noncustodial notesfile
    to get replies from parents who have and still are going through
    similar situations.
    
    Michele

    I've started to enter notes here twice.  Maybe this one will make it.
    
    I have a very dear friend who is a non-custodial parent of his
    daughter.  He and his ex split when the child was under two, she is now
    almost 11 (I think).  His ex left because of his drinking and some
    depression/anxiety problems that make him something less than stable. 
    He maintains a fairly good relationship with his daughter, and has had
    her with him for some overnights.  On those occasions, he stays
    straight and sober and responsible.  I wish you could hear him talk
    about the joy he took in comforting his baby at night when she was
    tiny.  It *is* possible that someone who is "screwed up" in general can
    hold it together for short periods of time for the sake of their kids. 
    I *hope* that this is what happens in your case.
    
    Do keep a written list of what condition the kids are in when they
    leave you and when they come back.  The suggestion that you take the
    kids to him so that you meet some of the other people in the situation
    is also good.  I would probably leave my name and phone number in the
    kid's stuff, a la a luggage tag, so that if something went far, far off
    course a stranger could have a way to notify you.  When you have done
    everything you can to make sure that the kids will be ok and that you
    will know if anything bad happens, concentrate on letting go of all of
    the anguish.  Do something nice for yourself in those free hours, like
    taking a long hot bath or seeing a movie.
    
    I had 50/50 physical custody of my son with his dad for a number of
    years.  It is *not easy* to let the other parent have the kids, especially 
    when you strongly disagree with the child-raising philosophies of the 
    other parent.  I had many times when I recited my mantra "A child needs 
    to know both his parents, he is half his dad's".  It is a very early 
    lesson in what it means to let a child go and let him be his own person.
    
    Best of luck to you.  I hope it works out well for all of the family.
    
    Alison

<<If he truly did not care for their children
<<why would he go through the expense both financially and emotionally
<<to maintain a relationship with their children?

One would be surprised with the reasoning mind.....

As a father and single parent this note hits home.  As someone who used to
work with heroin addicts, this note scares me.  There are a lot of dynamics
going on here.  First you have a parent who seems to have a substance abuse
problem and the pattern for these type of people and their relationships to
small children is that they tend to pass it on to the next generation.  If
I was the woman in the base note I too would be frantic. The second thing
going on is the emotional turmoil of the divorce itself. If this guy is a
typical abuser he will lean heavy on the stuff when the strain of the
divorce catches up to him.  What would I do?  I would make a deal with him.
I would tell him that I knew he was lying (heavy drug users are very
sincere liars) and I would tell him that if he went to AA (or whatever type
of counseling is available) I would give him some slack with visitation. If
he refused I would do what I needed to do (legally) to get him busted. If
he does drugs when he's not with the kids, that's one thing.  If he does
drugs when the kids are with him (ie drive a car) then it's time to do
something.  What can you do legally?  Hire a PI if you can afford it to
watch his movements.  If he's not working and he's doing drugs it'll be
obvious in a short period of time.  Have the PI take pictures and confront
him.  I personally would not recommend tailing him yourself.  Besides the
fact that he knows you it could get very dangerous.


Patrick