Conference turris::womannotes-v3

	I saw this the other night.  Among the profiles of 7 rape victims 
    (aged 8 to 79) from the Tennessee Rape Crisis Center were interspersed 
    some statistics (as of March, 1991)...

    * Only 1 rape in 10 ever gets reported to police.

    * Of that 1 in 10, 15% have the charges dropped (either by judge -
      insufficient evidence, unreliable witness, etc.; or by victim (fear,
      lack of witnesses, etc.).

    * Of that 1 in 10, less than 15% ever go to trial (and many of those
      never do any time in jail).

    * 50% of rapists will rape again within 3 years.

    * 7 out of 10 rapes reported are committed by someone the victim knows.

    * 18% of rape victims are over 60 years old.

    * 38% of all U.S. children suffer some form of sexual abuse.

    * 17% of rape victims still suffer trauma 15 years later.

    * Every 5 minutes, a woman is raped in the U.S.

    * Rape is the fastest-growing violent crime in the U.S.

	Now I think it is safe to say that the general consensus would be 
    that scum who rape an 8-year old, a 79-year old, a 5-month-pregnant 
    woman, or gang-rape a young woman leaving her with multiple injuries...
    all did something "wrong" and should be punished through appropriate 
    legal channels.  But they're not!  More than 90% of them are walking 
    around scott-free, doing it all over again to other women (or girls), 
    and leaving *the victims* feeling "punished," "guilty" and "dirty" 
    because they were forced to have oral, vaginal and anal sex.

	One guy whose wife was raped as a child was asked what he would do
    if he found out one of his daughters was raped.  He replied "I'd want 
    to kill the guy."  But we can't do that in our civilized society...

	So what *can* we do - as ordinary citizens - to start reversing these
    horrible statistics and get more of these violent sickos off the streets?

	deb

    I wonder what the statistics are like for other countries.  Anyone
    have any?  Seems to me that getting "sickos" off the streets is not
    going to work.  What you have to do is fix the sickness in your
    society that creates the sickos in the first place.  Maybe we can
    learn from other societies.
    						- Vick

    "I'd want to kill the guy" actually holds possibilities, at least if
    the rapist is known and is not locked up.
    
    I have more than a sneaking suspicion that in today's U.S. society such
    a killing could be defended as an act of temporary insanity, especially
    if it were done within hours of the rape.  It's further possible that a
    jury, if it got that far, could be convinced that it was justifiable
    homicide given the circumstances that drove the killer to it.
    
    DISCLAIMER:  I am not here advocating that ANYONE kill anyone, rapist
    or otherwise.  I am merely intellectually exploring the possible legal
    ramifications of a killing of that kind.
    
    -d

    RE: sickos, and how society creates them
    
    Well, *one* way is to teach little boys that they're better than
    little girls, and to teach *big* boys that it's prefectly ok to take
    out their anger, frustration, or whatever on those creatures who are
    inferior to him. Like girls. Like children in general. Like women.
    
    --DE
    

    I come from South America, where the rape statistics, I think are less
    horrible than they are here. Not that it doesn't happen but the
    violence seems to be less.
    
    In elementary and secondary schools in Latin America there are a lot of
    male teachers. Here, in the mind of boys for several years females and
    authority figures go together. This is just a theory but I think that
    when rebellion begins (teenage years) a lot of the repressed anger
    against female authority may come out in the form of rape when there
    are no societal controls. The crime is one of violence, not passion.

    According to Amnesty International, rape is commonplace in South
    America, taken for granted, and rarely prosecuted.
    
    Eileen
    

    Re: .5 (Bustamante)
    
          Your information is different from mine.  I spent eight years in 
    Cuba and 2 in Panama plus my best friend for a couple of years is
    Mexican and I can assure you that the Latin American mind is highly
    chauvinistic and sexist.  Schooling for the upper classes is often
    by Roman Catholic priests or "brothers" and male domination is
    very important in that milieu.  
          Ask any American woman who has traveled into Central or South
    America alone how she has felt about being alone there and I think
    you will get a different reaction about Latin American men and rape.
    As for violence, I think you're up the wrong tree, too.  There are
    a couple of things to realize, here, however.  One of them is that
    it was "your turf," so that you are clearly more at ease there. 
    Another, you are a male and therefore have the bias that comes with
    the territory (until you make a conscious effort to re-look and
    re-think it.)
    
          Actually, though I may sound pedantic, ;-} ,I have heard some
    ideas (which I do not wish to substantiate--rather I'll let the
    reader think about it) about what exactly some of the violence towards
    women often is.  It has been stated that men have a fear of women
    because women (mother) have the power of life or death...this fear
    is one we are all born with and develop through infancy and early
    childhood.  Though women could have this same fear, they don't because
    the gender is the same as theirs (and already in other notes people
    have commented on women/girl (mother) bonding as being generally 
    stronger than male/boy (father) bonding.  
         Moreover, it has also been stated that women do not need men.
    The converse, however, is not true.  Men *need* women.  (Again, I
    do not wish to spend time defending these positions...let's just 
    say *I* believe it.  Additionally, I will add that society, with
    men at the helm, have "turned the table" to make it appear as though
    the converse were true.  Understand that a man would never want this
    situation to be "known," for it would weaken his ability to keep a
    woman.  Men have been able to maintain this falsehood by means of
    physical domination.)  
         So, the fear of life/death results in anger at this situation
    and therefore anger at women.  Further, the anger *at NEEDING* 
    (NOT anger at women) has further exacerbated and fueled the anger.
    This anger, added to other angers, can lead to the manifestation of it.
         These are not the only possibilities, however I believe that 
    they hold up.  Add these concepts to the cauldron and see what a mess
    and how complex these issues become!
    
    Frederick
    

    Re Frederick's note:
    
    "  Your information is different from mine.  I spent eight years in 
        Cuba and 2 in Panama plus my best friend for a couple of years is
    Mexican and I can assure you that the Latin American mind is highly
    chauvinistic and sexist.  Schooling for the upper classes is often
    by Roman Catholic priests or "brothers" and male domination is
    very important in that milieu."
    
    Sorry, Frederick. That's like me saying: I spent eight years in Alabama
    and two in Georgia and I can assure that the USA mind is highly racist
    and chauvinistic. Schooling for the upper classes is done by Baptist
    ministers and white power is very important in that milieu"
    
    I also see a lot of assumptions on your answer. What is this about my
    "turf"? I've lived here for 25 yrs!!! Keep your ideas about me to
    yourself 'cause you don't know a f***ing about me.
    
    You also say:
    
    "Another, you are a male and therefore have the bias that comes with
    the territory (until you make a conscious effort to re-look and
    re-think it.)"
    
    So what are you: A female called Frederick ?
    
    Also, on your theory of fear (and I don't think men rape because of
    fear: fear is not conducive to penile tumescence, rather the opposite)
    
    I have never known a man who had a fear of women because of their power
    of life (where is their power of death: abortion perhaps?)
      
    You also say ...
    
    ..."men at the helm, have "turned the table" to make it appear as though
    the converse were true.  Understand that a man would never want this
    situation to be "known," for it would weaken his ability to keep a
    woman.  Men have been able to maintain this falsehood by means of
    physical domination.)  
    
    You don't seem to be fair to men, especially now when men are going out
    of their ways to make sure that women have equal opportunity. There's a
    lot of talk about the fact that women don't make the same salaries that
    men do but they never correct those statistics on the basis of equal
    scholarity. I don't think physical domination plays any role in today's
    economics of employment.
    
    Also, the need issue that you mention is a lot of baloney. When I was
    single there were many more women than men in the Houston singles
    arena. At the risk of sounding boastful I'll tell you that they seemed to
    need me much more, at least from a statistical standpoint!
    
    You cannot compare Cuba or Mexico with the more enlightened South American
    countries. I can assure that Chile and Argentina, at least, are more
    liberated than the USA. My chances of getting a woman dentist, lawyer
    or doctor when picking at random from the yellow pages are ten times
    higher in those countries than in the USA.
    
    By the way, I lived two years in Mexico and know all Latin countries
    with the exception of Belize, Paraguay and the Guayanas.  
    
    

    re .8, Chile is more enlightened than the USA?
    
    That's certainly an interesting comment.  I wonder if Allende (sp?)
    would have agreed with that comment.  Oh, well...
    
    Lorna
    

>    Sorry, Frederick. That's like me saying: I spent eight years in Alabama
>    and two in Georgia and I can assure that the USA mind is highly racist
>    and chauvinistic.

Sounds about right to me.... 

Kathy

    
    re .8:
    
    Do you have any idea how ethnocentric and arrogant your note comes
    off!?  It's offensive to me.
    
>    Keep your ideas about me to
>    yourself 'cause you don't know a f***ing about me.
    
    First off, there's no excuse for swearing at Frederick, despite
    the cutesy asterisks!
    
>    You also say:
>    
>>    "Another, you are a male and therefore have the bias that comes with
>>    the territory (until you make a conscious effort to re-look and
>>    re-think it.)"
>    
>    So what are you: A female called Frederick ?
    
    It doesn't take many brains to see that one need not *be* female to
    see injustice against females and recognize one's gender's own bias,
    just a sensitivity, one which you at least *appear* to be lacking.
    
>    You don't seem to be fair to men, especially now when men are going out
>    of their ways to make sure that women have equal opportunity. There's a
>    lot of talk about the fact that women don't make the same salaries that
>    men do but they never correct those statistics on the basis of equal
>    scholarity. I don't think physical domination plays any role in today's
>    economics of employment.
    
    This one got me laughing.  Men are "going out of their ways to make
    sure women have equal opportunity".  HAHAHAHAHAH!  This only started
    because they've been forced to (in general).  Women haven't been
    "given" anything, but have had to fight for every gain, no matter how
    small.
    
>    Also, the need issue that you mention is a lot of baloney. When I was
>    single there were many more women than men in the Houston singles
>    arena. At the risk of sounding boastful I'll tell you that they seemed to
>    need me much more, at least from a statistical standpoint!
    
    Yes, that is extremely arrogant.  As a famous woman (can't remember
    who it was) once answered some jerk who pressed her on the question
    that "she must be a lesbian", her answer was, "well, are you my
    alternative?"  Respectfully, there are worse things than "being alone"
    and many of those worse things come in the form of *ARROGANT* American
    males! (The ones that are arrogant, that is, and your note *makes* you
    sound like one of them!)
    
>    You cannot compare Cuba or Mexico with the more enlightened South American
>    countries. I can assure that Chile and Argentina, at least, are more
>    liberated than the USA. My chances of getting a woman dentist, lawyer
>    or doctor when picking at random from the yellow pages are ten times
>    higher in those countries than in the USA.
    
    How arrogant and ethnocentric.
    
>    By the way, I lived two years in Mexico and know all Latin countries
>    with the exception of Belize, Paraguay and the Guayanas.  
    
    That alone makes you the expert in Womannotes?  Maybe, but you'll
    have to rid yourself of the arrogant tone and swearing at members
    of this community before *I'll* listen to you (if that's important
    to you).
    

    regarding "equal scholarity":
    
    a black woman in the U.S. needs a PhD to earn the same amount of money
    as a man with a BA in the same job...
    
    so much for "equal scholarity"
    
    \D/

         re: myself
    
         Interesting...one person wrote to say they liked it and another
    wrote to tell me my form was poor (content didn't seem to matter.)
    I keep telling myself that I must accept that if *everyone* liked it
    that it would therefore be mediocre.
    
    re: .8 (::BUSTAMANTE)
    
         Since a few others have already made points at some things you've
    written, I'll pass on those.  However, just for your clarification:
    I am a male, one who has worked hard to look at the gender imbalances.
    As such, I have seen many and though many attitudes remain deeply
    entrenched, I am working towards releasing or changing as many as I
    can.  (By the same token, this is not enough, for various fears, etc.
    arise when I do---for example, it is difficult to accept that a woman
    will still want me if she doesn't *need* me.  This means that I must
    first deal with my fears before I can deal with my attitudes.  This,
    by the way, deals with needs versus preferences.  It is "okay" to 
    "prefer to need.")
         Another point:  the fear I spoke about is buried deep within.
    It is CLEARLY not visible in the "grown-up" male person.  Further,
    that is not the emotion that gets expressed.  The anger is a *response*
    to that fear (also, I made a strong effort to make sure that this
    is seen not as an absolute, but rather a generality that works in
    at least some cases.)  From a child's perspective, especially an
    infant child, mother is not just a neat person...she is critical
    and crucial for survival.
         Another but related note:  Many in here reading will remember
    the Arnie Becker character on L.A. Law going in to see a therapist
    who then told him that he had a tremendous fear of intimacy.  Arnie
    was so vehement in his denial that he stormed out of the office.
    (The character reconsidered, however, when he realized the truth in
    that.)  Similarly, most of us are often unaware of or unwilling to
    expose our inner fears or angers.  Often we state the opposite of
    what the greater truth actually is, however.  So, it is no surprise
    to me when someone tells me that they seek intimacy (when it is 
    actually one of their greatest fears...which means that they will
    therefore sabotage themselves to that end) or if someone were to
    tell me that they have no life/death fear of mother.
         I have one apology:  I should have stated *North* Americans...
    for South and Central Americans are also "Americans."
         Lastly, I could address you more appropriately if you had the
    consideration to sign your notes...::BUSTAMANTE hardly seems 
    endearing to me.
    
    
    Frederick
    

Hi,

    I am also from South America and I lived here in the states about 20
    years. The statement that Bustamante made on .5...

    "I come from South America, where the rape statistics, I think are less
     horrible than they are here. Not that it doesn't happen but the
     violence seems to be less."

    ...is "somewhat" true.  Five years ago I would have disagreed but after
    visiting South America three times and speaking with people and some of
    my family members I was surprise that rape is not as horrible as it is
    here.  Most people in South America are amazed of rapes they hear that
    occur in the U.S.

    I have seen shows here in the U.S that show statistics that rape is
    high in South America.  Well, these shows are realling getting me mad,
    specially when these shows are not showing true statistics.  Let me
    give you an example: I saw a show where it showed a huge percentage of
    rape in Bogota, Colombia, the only problem was the statistics that were
    used were from a certain section of Bogota where that section is
    similar to the combat zone in Boston (at least when it was ten years
    ago).  I would hate it if they showed a high statistic of rape in the
    state of Massachussets when all the statistics are from the combat
    zone.

    Now, the only thing is that I (and probably not many people) really do
    not know how many rapes are not reported. Similar here in the U.S.

    Some of the statement that Frederick mention are statements that I do
    not agree, however I found a few that I found very offensive (e.g.
    "your turf"). "Latin American mind is highly chauvinistic and sexist"
    is something I agreed but the U.S has the same mind.  I am not sure if
    you have been in the South, but let me tell you, when I visited few
    states in the south, I though I was in Latin America.  Here in New
    England, I have met men that I do not think they know that this 1991
    instead of 1900.  

    I have found out that many people in the U.S. does not know that South
    America has changed and is changing lot from what it was 20 years ago. 
    There are men in South America that are helping women just as there are
    men in the U.S.  

    Major difference between U.S. and South America is that government are
    very corrupt in South America.  Now, here is a statistic that not one
    show has ever mention is the amount of rape that goes within the
    government.  Here is where the original statement by Bustamante is
    false. I know someone who works in the top level of the government
    (similar to CIA) and he told me that he was in shock of the things that
    they do,  rape (men and women), torture (he told me "One could not
    imagine the things they do").  He told me how in certain cases the U.S
    was involve in it.  I also know a female that we were good friends thru
    high school.  She became a high class call girl in Washington D.C.  She
    said that the rape that goes in D.C. whithin the politicians is
    something that people will never know because politicians have a way to
    keep it quiet.

    People, please be carefull when you compare countries and how
    statistics are used.  5 years ago when I went to South America for the
    first time in about 10 years, I was burned and embarrased of the things
    I said and thought about South America because of the things I heard
    and saw in shows here in the U.S.

    I saw part of the show in HBO and it just get me mad that I decided not
    to watch it all.  There are so many assumptions as to why men rape
    women but no one will know all of the reasons.  Some of you have made
    excellent points as to why men might do it.  Frederick, your point as
    why is very interesting and I agree with some of those points.  I have
    alway though men to be weak (and I do not mean strength) compare to
    women.  However, there are other cases that I sure like to know why
    they did it. For example, the case in New Jersey, I would like to know
    why the S._.B. would want to rape his 3 year old niece? Boy, you do not
    know what I would like to do to that guy.
    
    Carlos
          

    Could we all please remember that neither the US nor South America
    are homogenous cultures? There are bastions of neanderthalism (*)
    here and areas of modernity there.
    
    Dana
    
    (*) apologies to any neanderthals I may have inadvertently offended

    
    My reply in .11 was not in any way trying to dispute any rape
    statistics or the comparative level or crimes that goes on in
    South, Central, or North America.  I claim no knowledge and have
    not seen any statistics from anywhere trustworthy.  I was only
    showing how I found some comments in a note offensive.
    

    Re. .11
    
    How funny! All one has to do in Notes is stretch one's neck out with
    any opinion and out come the corner spiders to cut you down. They never
    seem to have any original idea or argument. They just thrive on
    criticizing the writers! 
    
    I did almost the same thing to Frederick and I am not happy about swearing to
    him for stating "opinions" about me without knowing me (a "baddy" for
    which he has yet to apologize). However, I do speak from a position of
    some first hand knowledge. I have lived in several Latin countries.
    
    When we discuss rape I would prefer to speak of the "civilian" variety
    rather than the army or CIA-terrorism varieties. Not because they are
    not important but rather because they open the subject too much into
    other areas that are not the main subject of this Note.
    
    The most common form of rape that I have read about in Latin America
    involved a relative (parent, cousin, step-parent, etc) and no violent
    brutality nor murder. Alcohol was usually behind the crime. Serial
    killers are virtually unknown.
    
    If I sound arrogant because I defend males, too bad. Women have got so
    used to dealing with wimps that now they think they can tar and feather
    us at will and we will just take it. Not mea culpa from me, ladies. I
    have always been fair to women and I expect the same treatment. 
    
    About the black Ph. D. female example I say, you are bringing the color
    issue into the problem and that compounds it. I am sure that there
    problems there, no question. But I think it does not apply to all
    companies. Some would be thrilled to hire a black female Ph. D. at a
    good salary, for sure.
    
    Someone mentioned Allende. If she referred to the late President, I say
    think about the dead Kennedy brothers. If she referred to the writer,
    Isabel Allende, she needs to be more specific. Isabel doesn't write
    about the situation of women in a normal life: just under a
    dictatorship, which, fortunately has ended. 

    
    re. 17
    
    >If I sound arrogant because I defend males, too bad.Women have got so
    >used to dealing with wimps that now they think they can tar and feather
    >us at will and we will just take it. Not mea culpa from me, ladies. I
    >have always been fair to women and I expect the same treatment.
    
    Huh? Am I in the same century as you are? I don't remember "dealing
    with wimps". I don't see women "tarring and feathering men at will".
    The way I see it, women are usually the wimps. Maybe the male
    wimps that you see are actually sensitive and considerate men!
    
    
    
    Eva 
    

    
   > How funny! All one has to do in Notes is stretch one's neck out with
   > any opinion and out come the corner spiders to cut you down. They never
   > seem to have any original idea or argument. They just thrive on
   > criticizing the writers! 
    
Yes, well, it's comments like that that tend to make your notes prime targets 
for criticism.
    
   > When we discuss rape I would prefer to speak of the "civilian" variety
   > rather than the army or CIA-terrorism varieties. 

Women are hurt in either "variety" if such a word can be applied.  Rape is 
rape and it doesn't matter if the perpetrator is wearing an army helmet or a 
three piece suit. The only thing of any signifcance is a government's 
complicity in denying that it happens -- considering societal attitudes 
towards rape, it doesn't seem much different from the treatment survivors get 
anyway (re: HORRIBLE)  Focussing on "civilian rape" makes it sound as if the 
worse thing about amries raping is that they are paid by governments.  The 
worse thing is that someone, anyone, was RAPED by someone, anyone.
    
   > The most common form of rape that I have read about in Latin America
   > involved a relative (parent, cousin, step-parent, etc) and no violent
   > brutality nor murder. Alcohol was usually behind the crime. Serial
   > killers are virtually unknown.
    
Curious question: is this based only upon *reported* rapes?  In the U.S. most 
rapes go unreported so we are only just beginning to crack the surface a 
little and create environments where survivors can feel safe about telling 
what has happened.  What is the environment like in Latin America?  I 
honestly don't know, but if women are socialized there in any way resembling 
socialization in this country, I am a little suspicious.

   > If I sound arrogant because I defend males, too bad. Women have got so
   > used to dealing with wimps that now they think they can tar and feather
   > us at will and we will just take it. Not mea culpa from me, ladies. I
   > have always been fair to women and I expect the same treatment. 
    
This is another one of those "itches the points off my rack" comments. I don't 
think males need much defending in this country...why?  Because they are 
still in charge of everything.  "Women have got so used to dealing with 
wimps"???  Pardon me while I laugh at this -- if I don't I may start 
screaming.  I believe you when you say you believe that you have treated women 
fairly, but let's get a sense of reality here -- you don't have to feel guilty 
about being male to realize that men still have a stranglehold on political 
and economic power in the world.  Men dominate cultural expression not because 
women haven't made contribuations, but because they have been *IGNORED* Try to 
find a high school history book that gives more than a paragraph to the Seneca 
Falls Conference of 1848.  Try to find an anthology of literature that gives 
fair sampls of women and their work (Ex: first edition of the "Norton 
Anothology of Modern Poetry" had all of 10 women poets!  The second edition 
was released with 38 women and a profuse "apology" after a major stink was 
made)

Saying "Oh, hey, it wasn't *me*" doesn't change any of that.  And to claim that 
women are "tarring and feathering" men at will is a)ridiculous and b)a lovely 
exercise is blaiming the wrong people.  Those who point out this injustices 
are not the ones who create them!

   > About the black Ph. D. female example I say, you are bringing the color
   > issue into the problem and that compounds it. I am sure that there
   > problems there, no question. But I think it does not apply to all
   > companies. Some would be thrilled to hire a black female Ph. D. at a
   > good salary, for sure.
    
You made some cutesy remark about taking "scholarity" into account.  It 
implied that women didn't make as much money as men because they aren't 
educated.  I just pointed out that your assumption doesn't wash. And, oh yes, 
a white women still needs a Masters degree to earn as much as a white man with 
a BA.  There.  I've taken out the race issue.  Still sucks, doesn't it?

-Daniel

    "Ms." Volume 2, Number 1, page 11:
    
    	Argentina
    	Refusing to Forget
    
    	Last fall, 17-year-old Maria Soledad Morales of Catamarca was
    	allegedly raped and murdered by a young man from a prominent
    	political family -- and her friends refuse to allow the country
    	or the government to forget.  In April, Maria Soledad's high
    	school principal and classmates helped organize a silent march
    	of 10,000 in Buenos Aires to protest violence against women and
    	government corruption.  (When the son of a former national
    	deputy, Angel Luque was accused, the politician declared to the
    	press, "If my son had done it, I am powerful enough to have made
    	the body disappear.")  Guillermo Luque has been arrested but has
    	not been tried.  The mothers of Jimena Hernandez and Nair Mustafa,
    	two girls who were also raped and murdered over a year ago
    	(neither of their assailants has been found), marched at the
    	front of the demonstration.

    RE:. 20 and .21
    
    Thanks, Ann!
    
    E.

    How did a topic that is so simple, about a TV show, get so blown out of
    proportion?  The personal attacking I have seen in here appalls me! 
    Yes, that is directed at you Frederick and Bustamente.  I was so angry
    when I read through the replies in here that I had to take a walk to
    cool off.  I am very offended by what has happened in this string. :-(
    
    Karen

    Re: -1
    
    Karen, please don't take this so seriously! I don't. These type of
    forums allow people to vent their aggression and personal hidden
    "agendas".
    
    We all agree that rape is a horrible crime. That doesn't create any
    "synergy" in Notes. I said something about the absence of male teachers
    and the subconscious equation of "females=authority" in the kids mind
    in this country and it was completely ignored! That bothers me more
    than all the personal attacks.
    
    Instead, some writers choose to discuss the power differences between
    men and women in the world. We all agree that's true but it's also
    changing. We've had female Prime Ministers in a lot of countries and
    women have been powerful even when they were "just" first ladies (take
    Eva Duarte de Peron, for example)
    
    But this column is about rape. The most recent events about the Smith
    fellow bring the subject to us once more. I think we are not going to
    change the beasts among us but it's not all men. Personally, I think
    the biggest turn-on is to see a woman actively cooperate in lovemaking!

    No, this note is *not* about rape.  I believe that was Karen's whole
    point.  *This* topic is about the HBO documentary on rape.
    
    Hence the topic title.
    
    And please don't tell people not to take things seriously.  It
    invalidates them.  It is the old "you are being too sensitive" thing
    all over again!
    
    E Grace

    
    re -2
    
    Yes, exactly.  Has anyone seen the special?  Care to summarize?
    
    Justine - no cable and I've never played a video game.

    Justine,
    See .1, there is the summary to this topic.  
    
    E, thank you, you took the words right out of my mouth......
    
    Karen

    RE: .24
    
                   Back in for a moment....
    
    <flame on>
    
                       .24 is about as insensitive a responce as I have
    ever seen.   IMHO...of course.....
    
    <flame off>
    
    Dave
    
                  Back out...
               
           

    
    
    	re: .26 (Justine Sullivan)
    
    	> Has anyone seen the special?  Care to summarize?
    
    	Deb gave a good summary of the data presented in .1.
    
    	To that I can add a couple things:
    	
    	1)  The nurse who performed the post-rape examinations
    	    in that area of the state being portrayed deserves
    	    a medal for her sensitivity and compassion.   She was
    	    able to get the facts while starting the rape victims
    	    on the road to recovery as well.
    	    (The doctor who performed my examination was incommunicative
    	    and barely-English-speaking.  What I remember of it is horrid.)
    
	2)  Watching the special renewed my disgust at situations like
    	    the DA deciding not to prosecute the case of a badly beaten
    	    woman because she had a prior record of drug use...  in 5
    	    of the 7 **clear-cut** cases of Rape, the perps server NO
    	    jail time... and then watching how some people in =wn=
    	    who have been through the arguments before want to masturbate
    	    on the _definition_ again in order to feel a little more
    	    empowered about the situation.
    
    	Jody was right.
    						nancy b.
    
    

    
    Yes, the summary in 902.1 is excellent.  I was just hoping we could get
    back to talking about the issues the program raised (instead of AT each
    other).  
    
    It's amazing (and I thought I was too cynical) to me how few of the
    "clear cut" cases of rape get prosecuted and of those how few result
    in conviction -- and of the convictions.. how few of those result in
    any meaningful jail time.  Makes me want to get a bumper sticker with a
    bloody labrys and the phrase "Castration is forever."  But...  I really
    don't believe in responding to violence with violence, and we all know
    that a rapist doesn't need an erection or a penis to commit a rape, so
    castration wouldn't solve anything...  Would make a hell of a bumper
    sticker, though....
    
    Justine -- former Kennedy admirer
    
    

    Re. .29
    
    Nancy,
     
    Please elaborate on your point 2... " want to masturbate on the
    _definition_ ". You lost me there. 
    

    
    I'm not Nancy, but I have shared the frustration she's described in
    this area before.   There are so many clearcut, unambiguous, dreadfully
    violent rapes that go unpunished, and yet it feels like when we (women)
    bring up the issue of rape with our brothers (who proclaim themselves
    supporters), many of them want to talk about the hypothetical,
    ambiguous, murky, hard-to-define cases -- that comprise such a tiny
    percentage of the total rapes.  Where are the men who say they love us?
    Why aren't they comforting us, asking us what we need, organizing and
    educating each other and themselves... instead of asking us to reassure
    them that we don't mean them?  Show us that we don't mean you by helping 
    us stop them!!!!
    
    Justine  -- fighting the urge to say "please" -- I deserve your support
                and respect -- I assume that you only need to know how to
                give it not to be pleaded with for it.
    

    re .32
    i acknowledge your insult
    re .29
    i acknowledge your insult

    
    Justine, I agree completely.
    
    Carla
    

    at this point, it should be clear that I will regard additional
    responses to this note of the type of .34 & .32 & .29 as intended as an
    insult to me. It seems unnecessary to further acknowledge them.
    Rest assured, I am  receiving the messages
    
    
    				herb

    
    Herb, don't flatter yourself.
    
    Not every reply in this file is written with YOU in mind.
    
    Carla
    

    re .35, I can't for the life of me understand why you think Justine's
    .29 is an insult to you.  The way I saw it, Justine was just expressing
    her opinion, very articulately as usual.  I know I agree with her.
    
    Lorna
    

    Sorry.  It was Justine's .32 that I liked.
    
    Lorna
    

    Herb --
    
    huh?

    
    Herb,
    
    I did not intend my reply as an insult to you, and I think it's too bad
    that you interpret it in that way.  I wish you could hear anger and
    frustration as something other than an insult.  I consider this to be 
    your issue, Herb -- not mine and not Womanotes'.
                      
    Sometimes the way in which you pursue your agenda (as I see it) makes
    me mad because I think you ignore the importance of women's issues while 
    you pursue your own issues.  And while you are free to do that, it 
    sometimes frustrates me because I come here to talk about women's issues 
    - not Herb Nichols_issues- except where they overlap with women's issues.  
    How do you think people should respond to you when something you do
    makes them mad?  
    
    No insult intended - no acknowledgement requested
    
    Justine - a person with the patience of a woman
    

    One of my friends asked me in mail why I consider the recent entries
    in 902 to be insults to me. The following is an elaboration of my
    response to my friend.
    
First look at 920 (which I started, it's title is "What is Rape")
specifically 920.16 (by Jody Bobbitt
    
<    this seems to me to be a strange place to focus energy.
<    I suppose if we talk enough about it we don't have to think about it or
<    fear it because our energy is elsewhere.
<    Also, if we analyze it to death it removes it from the realm of reality
<    and it's only words so what's to be afraid of.
<    
then 920.20 by Nancy B.
<                                 -< heat sink >-
<               re: .16 (Jody Bobbitt)
<
<          >   this seems to me to be a strange place to focus energy.
<
<               I agree.
<
<          >   I suppose if we talk enough about it we don't have to think
<          >   about it or fear it because our energy is elsewhere.
<          >   Also, if we analyze it to death it removes it from the realm
<          >   of reality and it's only words so what's to be afraid of.
<
<               Interesting hypothesis.  I can't come up with a better one
<          for why, whenever the subject of rape is discussed, the extreme
<          cases end out dominating the conversation...   (either false
<          accusations, or "but is it rape if..." the woman is in a coma and
<          the man is drunk and they are hanging from a chandelier.)
<
<
<
<          I mean... haven't we been through this before?  OK, not everyone,
<          but Herb (the basenoter), weren't you around in =wn=V2 when we
<          discussed:

and 902.29 by Nancy B again

<    	    jail time... and then watching how some people in =wn=
<    	    who have been through the arguments before want to masturbate
<    	    on the _definition_ again in order to feel a little more
<    	    empowered about the situation.

There is no question in my mind that Jody and Nancy are consciously and
intentionally insulting me.

How about Justine...?
Well that is a bit less certain i guess and I am motivated to accept her
statement nevertheless i do consider it an insult whether intentional or
not to be  told that I am ignoring the hurts and concerns of women. And to
be told (at least implicitly) that I have no right to decide for myself how
I am going to address concerns of rape.

Note 902.32                  HBO documentary on rape                    32 of 40
CUPMK::SULLIVAN "Singing for our lives"              17 lines  26-JUL-1991 10:32
             -< punish enemies, ignore sympathizers, find friends >-
    
<    I'm not Nancy, but I have shared the frustration she's described in
<    this area before.   There are so many clearcut, unambiguous, dreadfully
<    violent rapes that go unpunished, and yet it feels like when we (women)
<    bring up the issue of rape with our brothers (who proclaim themselves
<    supporters), many of them want to talk about the hypothetical,
<    ambiguous, murky, hard-to-define cases -- that comprise such a tiny
<    percentage of the total rapes.  Where are the men who say they love us?
<    Why aren't they comforting us, asking us what we need, organizing and
<    educating each other and themselves... instead of asking us to reassure
<    them that we don't mean them?  Show us that we don't mean you by helping 
<    us stop them!!!!
<    
<    Justine  -- fighting the urge to say "please" -- I deserve your support
<                and respect -- I assume that you only need to know how to
<                give it not to be pleaded with for it.
<    

				herb

    
    OK, Herb.  It seems that part of the problem here is that you have
    a different definition of the word insult than I have seen
    used before.  I will certainly take your definition of the word
    insult into consideration when I respond to you, and I encourage
    others to do the same.  In the meantime, if you do think of how
    people can express their anger at something you write without your
    feeling insulted, I hope you'll talk about that.
    
    Justine
    
    

    <    OK, Herb.  It seems that part of the problem here is that you have
    <   a different definition of the word insult than I have seen    
    <used before.  I will certainly take your definition of the word    
    <insult into consideration when I respond to you, and I encourage    
    <others to do the same.  In the meantime, if you do think of how    
    <people can express their anger at something you write without your    
    <feeling insulted, I hope you'll talk about that.

    That will not be an easy thing to think about. If you are right, i am
    going to be very embarrassed.
    

re: .41
    
><    this seems to me to be a strange place to focus energy.
><    I suppose if we talk enough about it we don't have to think about it or
><    fear it because our energy is elsewhere.
><    Also, if we analyze it to death it removes it from the realm of reality
><    and it's only words so what's to be afraid of.
>
>There is no question in my mind that Jody and Nancy are consciously and
>intentionally insulting me.
    
    I in no way consciously nor intentionally intended insult.  If you
    chose to take it from my OWNING my OWN FEELINGS about WHAT HAPPENS when
    we TALK ABOUT what rape means, it's yer business.
    
    -Jody