Conference turris::womannotes-v3

Gosh, I have plenty of friends who don't get along with each other.
And none of my friends are perfect (nor am I for that matter).
If you do something social without B, it only seems polite not to
mention the event to B. You don't share B's life, and neither of
you should expect to have an identical social life. It would seem
to me that you can see your friends when you want to, and see B on
your own.

Or maybe I'm not understanding what the problem really is.


Liz

    
    I can understand the dilemna if you're not used to having to censor
    what you say, but Liz is right, that's the best approach. If you don't
    want to be in a position of having to invite B to certain activities,
    then you cannot discuss them, either.
    
    The other thing to say is that you don't think B would get
    along with X, and you don't want to put them together. If B insists
    then you can say "ask X yourself, but please leave me out of it."
    
    You may find that B doesn't like X any more than X likes B, and then
    you don't have to worry about it! 

    When you invite people to your home, it is rude and immature (not to
    mention an open disclosure of being weak and insecure) for a friend to
    refuse because he/she cannot "handle" being at the same place with
    Beasley. By the way, I am having a real problem accepting that you
    can't spell "her". Is this a Freudian slip or you managed to get out of
    school without learning elementary English
    
    

    Tell them both what is happening.
    
    Tell them both why.
    
    That is if you care about the both of them.
    
    There is very little worse than allowing people to have misconceptions.
    If you don't mention it... then when people find out later via
    conversations or inadvertent slips from people who are not in on your
    exclusions, you wind up looking bad.
    
    Undercover hardly EVER works, because then you have to keep the whole
    event hidden for the rest of your lives, and not EVERYONE can keep
    their tounges forever.  
    
    Not only that, but the electronic world we live in fairly insures
    that the message will EVENTUALLY get to B. anyway... at least
    if it is DEC internal.
    
    All the rest is petty.  I understand that this is fairly human.
    However, it is not a goal to which I ascribe.  I could only hope
    that my friends or acquaintances would aspire likewise.  My friends,
    I am finding as time goes on do.  The acquaintances, I am finding
    slowly, do not.  In fact, it is beginning to be a measuring stick
    for me.  Your friends will have a heart to heart and tell you what
    is up.  Your acquaintances and distant familiars will play people games and
    politics with it with ... oh HEEE's not comming if she comes so
    I won't tell HER and vice versa.
    
    Decide which type of person you wish to be. Friend or familiar... and
    be it.
     
    There exists no REAL LIFE benefit from skirting the confrontation.
    I am having this reaffirmed to me the HARD way.  It only hurts more
    and is much harder later.
    
    Cindi 

    
    "HIR" is a (wonderful, in my opinion) non-gender specific term that
    combines "her" and "him"... for example when you are talkingabouta
    subject that requires a generic term for people, and don't wish touse
    "him".
    
    RAthole alert... IMO. it's not 'rude and immature for a friend
    to refuse because s/he cannot "handle" being in the same place'.. it's
    either (on the positive side) a candid statement of their feelings and
    wishes, or (on a darker note) an attempt to manipulate Anon.
    
    End Rathole alert.
    
    
    My opinion on the base note aligns w/ Liz.  Some friends don't mix;
    they're oil and water.  Yet, they're valued *because* they are so
    different.  Do you have the time to put into both sets of friends?
    
    Jamd

    Also- anon- be aware...
    
    Should you choose to go along with the UNDERCOVER type plans.
    
    The day may very well come when YOU yourself fall on the negative
    side of individuals who act that way and play those types of politics.
    And then... it will be your turn.  Or maybe, if that has already
    been asked of you... maybe it already has been your turn.  ...and
    you just don't know it yet.
    
    You must decide for yourself if you want to deal with that.
    
    To me, it keeps things kind of dirty and muddled, and it is really
    hard on the soul an heart.
    
    But as I said before, it kind of depends on the kind of person
    you are.  I know people whe virtually thrive on it.  It defines
    their day to day lives.  They decide who they are talking to and
    who they are not.  The decide who is in for them that day, and
    who is out for them that day.  They are also known for not
    explaining to most of the "out people" WHY they have become
    "out people".  They leave it mysterious, and then play one
    against the other.  Only by talking to all the sides do you find
    out what all the politics are about.
    
    But that takes a lot of energy.
    
    And you might not want to go through all that.  Especially since
    really talking to all the parties often clears things up that
    the in/out politics thrivers would rather keep muddy.  And if
    they know you have done it... they tend to put you "out" too.
    
    But if you want to play... enjoy.
    
    Cindi

    re .3
    
    What an amusing statement. I guess I'm rude and immature, and willing
    to openly disclose that I am weak and insecure. I was date raped in
    college and I don't like showing up to the same events as that man. If
    I know in advance, and I don't think I can handle it, I don't go. I
    have ended another relationship in a very painful way, and seeing that
    individual leaves me catatonic. When I know he is at a party, I don't
    go. 
    
    I didn't know that everyone was supposed to be perfect. I hope its just
    your personal preference, and as long as I'm not YOUR friend, I won't
    worry about how MY friends judge me.

    'ren,
    
    I also do not buy into that line of thinking.  It has taken me years of
    hard, sometimes gut-wrenchingly hard, work to get to the point of being
    able to take care of my self.  For a long time - back when I *was* far
    more immature, and a heck of a lot weaker and more insecure - if I were
    invited to go to a friend's house, I went.  It did not matter if it was
    a good or healthy or safe situation for me, I went.  
    
    I was just so happy that someone wanted me to go to a party, to be in
    hir home.
    
    I no longer need to do that.  I am now strong and secure enough to say
    "no."  I am a woman of worth, and now treat myself as such.
    
    E Grace

    A reply from the basenoter.
    
    -Jody
    
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Re: .1, Liz --

    I can partially see your point(s).  I'd like to not have to censor  my
    conversations, though, and not have to keep a part of my life 
    "hidden".  

    My biggest problem with Beasley (and, maybe this is the REAL  problem)
    is that I very often feel like I have to guard against B.'s encroaching
    on my space (usually personal but sometimes physical).  My friendship
    with hir provides me with ample opportunity to  exercise my
    boundary-setting skills!  
    
    Re: .2, 'ren --
    
    You've got a point there.  
        
    Re: .3, Bustamante --
    
    I'm not talking about inviting people to my home, I'm talking about 
    getting a group of friends together to do something.  I don't agree 
    with you about the rude and immature and weak and insecure stuff.  For
    one thing, there are many reasons why I don't want to be in  close
    proximity to certain other people.  For another, my friend  (called X)
    has every right to decline an invitation of mine, for  whatever reason. 
    Whatever the reason is, it's valid.
    
    Someone else explained the use of "hir".  I'm using it here because  I
    don't want anyone to know the sex of the people I'm talking about.
    
    Re: .4, Cindi --
    
    I've already talked to X.  I don't care that much about X; meaning,  we
    are not destined to be close friends; our life experience and 
    perspective are too different, we just don't "click".  However, X  and
    I share some common interests and we enjoy each other's company  well
    enough as companions for those things that we both like to do.  X would
    not suffer terribly from lack of my company, nor I from lack of hirs.
    
    Beasley, on the other hand, has provided me with much support 
    (personal as well as professional) over the past 'n' years, and I 
    suppose I feel somewhat indebted.  That's part of it but I think  it's
    mostly my dread of "confrontation", and my unease at setting  limits. 
    It's probably time to Have A Talk.
    
    Beasley is not apt to hear anything (because of an inadvertant slip)
    because B.'s only connection to X is me and I am not a part of X's 
    circle.
        
    This is another thing that bugs me; I seem to have only "exclusive
    friendships"!  I would like to have a circle of friends but I don't.
    
    Re: .5, Jamd --
    
    Thanks for the explanation of "hir".
    
    I believe that in this case, X was candidly expressing hir feelings.
    
    As I said before, I seem to have exclusive friendships; so, time is
    limited!
        
    Re: .7, Cindi --
    
    Nah, I don't thrive on that stuff.  I can't say I've ever been 
    involved in that sort of thing, at least not to my knowledge, or not
    since I was out of my teens!
    
    Well, thanks everyone.  More thoughts/discussion/ratholing is
    welcomed...

    Between-a-Rock-and... etc.    

    
    In light of a "circle of friends", you only get them by building them,
    usually. Or by entering into one, and that takes luck. Usually, for me,
    going into a group setting doesn't guarantee that they'll ALL be MY
    friends.
    
    I think it might do you some good to make a list of people who DO like
    B, and start bringing them together in small groups. And try the same
    with ANY close friends, not just B. Then, see which groups of 3 and 4
    can be brought together into 6-8. At any rate, that's how I've worked
    on circle building.
            

    
    I personally enjoy having friends that are not connected to each other,
    either as individuals or groups.  My husband and I have some friends 
    whom we see in groups and that is a lot of fun when we get together. 
    We do prefer one couple's company over the rest and we do things
    separately with them as well as in the group, but we generally don't
    discuss these activities with the others.  (We don't hide them either,
    it just doesn't make for good conversation so why bother mentioning
    it.)
    
    As much as I enjoy this group of friends I also enjoy my friends who
    are not connected to the group.  They give me some fresh insight into 
    different topics.  It also allows me to participate in different
    activities.  An example of this would be white water rafting.  We have
    some friends who we can do these types of activities with while we have
    other friends who think it is absolutely crazy.
    
    I personally would not feel badly about having B as a friend and not 
    inviting hir to gatherings with others on a regular basis.
    
    Occaisionally we will have a larger gather of our friends (every year
    or two at the most) and then we invite any of our friends who would like 
    to come.  That may be a time when you would want to include B, and hope
    your other friends are mature enough to see that this is a large gather
    and not an everyday occurance.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Mary
       

    Insecurity is an awful thing!  You know, we all have it to one degree
    or another.  It's bad enough dealing with your own and extrememly
    difficult to put yourself in the position of being responsible for
    someone elses!  Who was that woman who said, "No one can make you feel
    insecure without your permission"?  It is so true.  And even further,
    we are not responsible to how other people feel, but we CAN be gentle.
    So, if you decide to want to hurt someone, as an example, and they feel
    pain, it's not your fault!!!  It is a weird philosophy to get used to,
    but it is true.  If someone doesn't have the inner character to deal
    with a situation, that isn't your fault, but it would be nice to lend a
    kind word or a helping hand.  
    
    My suggestion is if it really bothers you, you should make some sort of
    communication about it with all involved.  The end result being that
    you are not responsible to how others feel and will no longer worry
    about it!!!  It sounds to me like you might feel sorry for Beasley and
    involve her in your life because you do.  Maybe you see some merit in
    her, but that B. is mostly annoying!  There are people like that.  It's
    too bad, cause it is a difficult situation.  
    
    I had a friend once who was difficult to be around because she had
    TERRIBLE breath!  I used to offer her gum a lot!!!  Here, have a piece
    of gum!  Not would you like, etc.  She is a nice person, but I couldn't
    get up the nerve to tell her.  Others would remark about it.
    
    I say, don't take on the responsibility of worrying about it if it
    interferes with your day-to-day living.  You can decide not to let it
    bother you, you know.  Just make those feelings neutral.  What good
    are they doing anyone involved?  
    
    I am making assumptions and not knowing the whole story makes it
    difficult to judge.  Maybe you could provide an example...just keep
    in mind that Beasley may read Womannotes and recognize "hirself"...
    
    KM

    ...I really can spell "extremely"!!!
    
    I hate when that happens!

    re  .12
    
    >>So, if you decide to want to hurt someone, as an example, and they feel
    >>pain, it's not your fault!!!  
    
    I'm having a difficult time with this statement. If you decide to kill
    someone and they die, isn't it your fault? If you decide to rob someone
    and they experience a sense of loss, isn't it your fault?
    
    This is news to me.

    re: .14 ("'ren")
    
         Yes, you caught it.  That is what is known as a partial truth,
    which can sometimes be more damaging than the whole truth.
    
    re: .12
    
    WE HAVE IMPACT.  We already know that people have impact on us, but
    we must be willing to understand that we, too, have impact on them.
    Though we are not responsible for their feelings, we have a
    responsibility to be brutally honest with ourselves, to ask ourselves
    if what we are doing is the greatest truth we have and if it is
    the most loving thing we can do, not only to ourselves, but
    additionally or subsequently to others.  Your statement seems to
    imply that you are not being compassionate for the results of your
    actions.  If what you have done is the best that you know to do, then
    perhaps you won't punish yourself for whatever negative consequence
    you may discover, but that doesn't mean you aren't responsible for what
    was done.  But, ultimately, you are correct...you are not responsible
    for how others feel.
    
    Frederick