Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    I dunno...
    
    I have had a lot of trouble with this. I have lots of advice on what
    *not* to do, but having never succeeded in finding one I clicked with,
    I don't have any advice on what *to* do.
    
    My situation is kind of unique.  I set up barriers between myself and
    my therapist.  I think everyone does, but therapists are trained to
    work around and through those kind of barriers.
    
    The problem is that my training at putting the barriers up is better
    than most of their training at breaking them down.  Ya see, my mother
    is a psychologist, and tried to shrink me (her speciality is child
    phsychology) when I was young, and so I learned VERY EARLY how to set
    up defenses against the standard tools.
    
    Combine that with the fact that I have studied quite a bit of psych
    myself and the fact that (and I don't mean this conceitedly, it's just
    a simple fact of my life) I am more intelligent than most (vast
    majority I've met) shrinks out there...what it means is that I am
    better at avoiding them than they are at not being avoided.
    
    I am very intellectual, and I can talk about my feelings for hours
    without *feeling* them.  I know exactly what shrinks want to hear, so
    much that they don't even *know* they're being snowed!!  A therapist
    will do a typical therapist trick like rephrasing my statement as a
    question ("So you are anger at your mother?") and immediately the 
    little shrink in my head said "Ah, she's using Rogerian therapy on
    me...well, *this* and *this* would be the right answer" and we never
    get anywhere!
    
    I try to let this go, but intellectual and debate is my conversational
    style, and I can't let it go even when I want to.
    
    I need to find a shrink who not only is smarter than me, but has a
    better grasp of language and conversation and logic, who can burst
    through and say "Yes, forget all that bullshit, how do you *feel*, and
    don't change the topic."  I've never met one.
    
    D!

    I went to EAP here in Santa Clara, CA.  Because of different problems
    that came up EAP was able to authorize 3 different 5-appt. each
    sessions for me with Rosemary.  Rosemary was wonderful to talk to.
    When it came time to move on to an outside counselor for couples
    counseling, she gave me three names of people she was aware of that 
    had sliding scale fees and specialized in the area my SO and I needed.  
    (NOTE:  We have since changed companies that provide the EAP service 
    	    so I can't comment on the new company.)
    
    Two of the counselors were very close to where I lived (and not far 
    from work), the other was in Palo Alto which was somewhat accessible 
    from work but not close to home.
    
    We chose Dr. Jan Kearny in Willow Glen, CA - 5 minutes from home, 15
    from the office.  So far she has been very good for us.  When money 
    became an issue in my continuing counseling, she offered to recommend 
    someone who had a lower fee schedule available.  I like her so much
    that I opted to stay and if necessary go to counseling once every 3
    weeks instead of every other week.
    
    So, I guess you could say this EAP therapist recommendation was a
    success.
    
    Jan

    
    D!
    
    I've had a similar problem -- talking about my feelings (instead of
    having them).  I'm not as smart as you, but I am smarter than average,
    and that was my number 1 requirement.  I wanted a therapist who was
    smarter than me and could and would call me on stuff.  I feel like I've
    spent so much of my life fooling people (of course, this is
    complicated, because this fear that I'm fooling people is part of my
    "stuff" sigh..)  Anyway, it was after quite a while with the same
    therapist that I really got beyond that wall, so maybe it's time as
    much as it is who you get.  
    
    Justine

    
    Oops.  I didn't mean to turn this note into a dissection of the actual
    therapy experience -- just wanted a place for folks to talk about how
    they go about looking for one, how do you know one is right for you,
    etc.
    
    Justine

   RE: interesting sidetrack from original topic

   If you *know* when you're BS-ing, whether or not the therapist knows
   you're BS-ing, or whether or not the therapist has the right tools for
   "breaking" you, then why bother to BS at all?  Why does anyone, therapist
   or not, have to call you on your stuff?

   Your barriers are a control game, no more, no less.  Since you're so busy
   being in charge, do/say/act as you wish!  Why leave it up to the
   therapist to grant or deny you permission to freely speak and express
   your feelings?  

   Why does the therapist have to be "smarter"?  Seems that you're doing a
   pretty good job of outsmarting yourself.

   Now be your own therapist -- your own special friend -- live those
   feelings.

   Scary, huh?


   							Terza

    ummm...Terza...if you we were so good at making ourselves be who we
    wanted to be, we wouldn't *need* a therapist.
    
    If you have arguments with the usefulness of therapy, talk about it
    somewhere else.  This note is for those of us who do see value in
    therapy, and want to know how to make it work for us.  If you don't
    accept the basic premise, start a new note.
    
    At any rate, it is utterly useless to tell me "just let down your
    barriers".  It is those exact barriers that are my *problem* that I
    want a therapist to help me learn how to take down.  But I'm pretty
    slick, conversationally, enough so that I can actually convince 90% of
    therapists that they *are* down.  I don't *chose* to BS the therapist,
    but when she starts closing in on something important, it's a trained
    response.  She has to be able to recognize it to help untrain it.
    
    D!

    
>   Now be your own therapist -- your own special friend -- live those
>   feelings.

>   Scary, huh?
    
    You aren't my therapist, your advice on how to run my life is not
    welcome, nor is your condescending assumption about how my "feelings"
    feel to me.
    
    If you were my therapist, I'd fire you.  This is a ridiculous
    platitude.  You say it as if the thought had never occured to me, and
    now that I have been enlightened by your ingenious and original
    solution, all I have to do is implement it and all will be dandy in my
    life.
    
    I sure hope you didn't waste four years of education in psychology to
    come up with that.  I've seen more helpful profundities on Salada tea
    bag tags.
    
    D!

   D!,

   Instead of continuing our conversation in this note, how about if we take
   it out of here.  I'll be happy to continue by mail.

   The basenoter's question still hasn't been answered and I don't think
   it's fair to continue what has become our discussion here.


   							Terza

    Very interesting topic, Justine.
    
    When I found my therapist, I was *extremely* depressed, and desperate
    for help.  I was very lucky that EAP worked for me, and they referred
    me to someone who is helping.  
    
    If I were choosing a new therapist now, I'd probably talk to EAP, talk
    to friends who are in therapy, ask some of the people in here, and get
    lots of referrals.  Then I'd interview the therapists, ask them
    questions about their approach, see how I clicked with them, etc.  I've
    seen some chapters in the books I read about child sexual abuse that
    talk about choosing a therapist and what questions to ask, so I'd
    reread those and think about what I really want.  I'm just glad I don't
    have to go through that.  My best friend has worked with a number of
    therapists, and some did more damage than good...since her self-esteem
    is a problem for her, recognizing that the therapy was hurting her and
    that she had a right to ask for something better was very difficult. 
    Seeing her go through that hurt, and scared me.  
    
    D!:  I can relate *so* much to what you say.  I avoided therapy for
    years because I intellectualize so much, and recognize the techniques,
    and because I am intelligent.  I don't have quite the experience you
    do, not having had your mother or studied psych extensively, but the
    kind of defenses you describe sound very familiar.  I couldn't get or
    accept help until I got extremely depressed.  Hope that doesn't happen
    to you!
    
    cheryl 

    
    Back to .0 ...
    
    I spoke to friends, took names and recommendations, and then went out
    and interviewed them.  I let them know before hand that I was in the
    interview process and wanted to get a feel for who they were and how
    they worked, etc.  I did actually sit down and come up with questions I
    wanted to ask beforehand, and I'm glad I did since I wasn't too together 
    when I finally got in their offices! :-}  I asked about their backgrounds,
    type of training, school of influence, stuff like that.  Mostly,
    though, I tried to get a feel for the type of person they were and if I
    would feel comfortable opening myself up to them.  That can be pretty
    hard to do in just an hour, but you do actually walk away with a
    stronger impression then you might expect.  Like I remember one woman
    kept giving me the impression that she was mothering me.  It wasn't so
    bad ;-), but at one point I almost felt that she had said something
    patronizing, as if she was chiding me sort of.  Later on in the
    interview, it came out that she regularly treated a lot of teenage
    groups.  Another time, I had a feeling that someone was being
    particularly tentative, and that treatment with her would take forever
    to get anywhere.  Later on I learned that she regularly works with many
    victims of abuse.  Anyway - the point is, you can pick up a lot about a
    person in a short time, but I think it's important to take that first
    impression, and then walk away from the situation so you can look back
    on it as a whole. 
    
    One other thing - I think for awhile I was frightened of making "a
    choice" cause I saw it as much more of a permanent decision than it
    really is.  If you find someone you think you can work with, and then
    you find that the relationship is unsatisfactory - you can always find
    someone else.  I know maybe that sounds pretty simple, but it held me
    up for a while so I figured I'd throw it in. :-)
    
    And one thing regarding payment - I don't know about Mass, but here in
    NYC, just about everyone I spoke with was willing to let me pay 20% up
    front, and wait for the 80% reimbursement from John Hancock.  It's
    certainly worth asking about anyway!  
    
    Phyllis
    
    

         I think that there are lots of good suggestions in here in
    regards to finding a therapist.   If one starts looking, they will
    find many sources...many being better than others, some therapists
    being more appropriate to one individual than another.
         As to being more "intelligent" than someone, that's not such
    an uncommon occurance.  When therapists practice on each other, often
    they find that intelligence levels are similar.  When therapists go
    to conventions or seminars or read books or read research, often they
    find that the information is not more "intelligent" than they are.
    Using intelligence as a criteria for effective therapy is not totally
    dissimilar from using skin color or religion or gender as an
    impediment.  It can't be denied that it may be an obstacle, but the
    reasons behind it can't be particularly appropriate, either.   I would
    make a guess that effective therapy is based less on intelligence,
    in fact, than it is on empathy, attention, caring, intuition, awareness
    of problems (experience) and awareness of solutions (education,
    perhaps.)  Someone may dazzle you with their intelligence and yet still
    prove to be the biggest buffoon and egocentric sob that you're ever
    likely to meet (see the movie "What about Bob?" for a characature
    [sp?] of this...on second thought, don't waste your time or money...
    ;-} .)  So many people place a premium on intelligence or credentials
    that often the sight of the goal is totally obscured.
        Lionel Richie had it correct when he said "Check your egos at the
    door."  Similarly, if you really want therapy, and aren't there for
    your own mental masturbation, leave the ego at the door...as a first
    step you may even inform the therapist of your background (so as
    to not get involved in a game of "trickery"--"let's see how far I
    can get to trick them") and tell them to get right to it...but 
    understand that being honest with oneself is the only honesty that 
    will ultimately matter to you.  If a person isn't honest with
    themselves first and isn't willing to be *tactfully* honest with
    someone else, it is extremely unlikely that honest results will
    be an outcome.
         Being an honest and a good therapist isn't particularly easy.
    Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.  
    
    Frederick
    

    
    Frederick,
    
    I found myself feeling defensive when I read your note -- mental
    masturbation??  I'm not saying that I need to know my therapist's IQ
    before I'll talk to her (that's what I think of as "intelligence.")
    What I was trying to get at is something I think D! and others have
    described much better than I did.  I fool people.  I am extrememly
    clever and perceptive.  I know how to tell people what (I think) they
    want to hear.  I needed a therapist who can "catch" me and call me on
    it when I do that.  Yes, of course, honesty is important in therapy,
    but it's hard to be honest about your feelings and needs when it has
    never felt safe to do that.
    
    I don't think anyone has a key to the definitive therapy experience --
    that's why there are so many different kinds.  What works for you might
    not work for me.  And something that works for me now might not work
    in 5 years.  I'm glad there are more choices and that some of the
    stigma around being in therapy is gone so we can share our questions
    and experiences.
    
    Justine
                

    I wish you all who are responding to my "intelligent" comment would get
    it into your heads (after I've said it *how* many times???) that my
    "verbal fencing" with my therapist is *not* voluntary.  It's a defense
    mechanism.  IF I COULD TURN IT OFF AT WILL, I WOULDN'T NEED A
    THERAPIST!
    
    Check your egos at the door?  BULLSH!T!!!  My ego is sorely wounded -
    if I don't bring it inside, it won't be healed.  *You* check *your* ego
    at the door. Frederick, I'm tired of you generalizing your experiences
    to other people.  Your ego may conflict with your healing - my ego is
    exactly what needs to be healed.  Buzz off with your unwelcome 
    projection.
    
    >Using intelligence as a criteria for effective therapy is not totally
    >dissimilar from using skin color or religion or gender as an
    >impediment. 
    
    You know something?  I use those, too.  A relationship with a therapist
    is a close, personal relationship. I use criteria like intelligence,
    gender, religion (and to a limited extent, skin color) for my
    relationships, including the one with my therapist.  We aren't talking
    about "who is the best engineer" type of questions here - we are
    talking about we can relate to, who can get into our heads, who can
    help us help ourselves.  I am not going to let just anyone in to their
    heads - i have no desire to, and don't see the need.
    
    For *me* intelligence is a valid criteria.  So is gender.  So is sexual
    orientation.  it may not be for *you* but STOP GENERALIZING!!!!
    
    You and Herb (whose reply I found so insulting as to be not even worth
    replying to) both seem to have this idea that my interview process for
    a therapist includes some sort of IQ test.  It does not!  You also seem
    to think that I focus on that exclusively - I don't know why you think
    that, since I said explicitly that I do not.  I need a therapist who
    can "out-smart" someone's whose sole defense mechanism is that no one
    ever out-smarts me.  I *also* need a therapist who is supportive and
    non-judgemental, who is a woman, preferably who is a woman, who is
    skilled at dealing with dependency and co-dependency issues, and a
    zillion other things.
    
    Am I picky?  you bet.  that's why I haven't found a therapist yet. 
    But, dammit, I'm worth it.  This is the rest of my life we're talking
    about - I am not going to settle for less.
    
    Now take your projections and assumptions elsewhere.
    
    D!

    <that my "verbal fencing" with my therapist is *not* voluntary>
    
    And in the conference?...
    
    
    				herb

    
    But, D!  Tell us how you really FEEL.
    
    :-)
    
    J

    ummm? Justine? ... were you really , umm, _listening_?
    
    I mean, D! has just told us in rather unambiguous language that she's
    an accomplished pro when it comes to reading her audience and telling
    them what they want to hear 
    ...
    
    
    talk about 'just came to the big city yesterday'  ...
    
     Annie

        <that my "verbal fencing" with my therapist is *not* voluntary>
    
        And in the conference?...
     
    Herb,
    
    Please don't address personal notes to me.
    
    Thank you,
    Diana Carroll

        Diana,
    
    You have expressed a great deal of anger in this notestring. 
    Obviously, without needing to say it (though you have) this is
    a real hot button for you.  I do not wish to argue, yet I made
    a choice to respond to what I felt was not a complete or fair
    set of statements by you.  I feel this way about a lot of things
    and often stay out (others seem to feel inclined to do the 
    verbal interchange in those.)  This time, however, I felt that
    I wanted to say something and I have.  If I generalized, it is
    probably for a couple of reasons:  one, that I wasn't addressing
    my entry directly at you and two, because if I could be more 
    specific it might become inappropriate to direct it to you in this
    public forum.  
        Also, as I have told you on the telephone, I, too, have a 
    background in psychology (a B.S. to be precise) and my mother has
    an M.A. in counseling.  That, and being almost double your age
    gives me perhaps some insight that you aren't terribly willing to
    acknowledge.  Well, it might not help you, but perhaps I can be of
    some assistance to someone else.  But in the meantime, what you 
    wrote reminds me of the person who says "The pain doesn't stop"
    while they continue to hit their own head with a hammer.  Put the
    hammer down and the pain will stop.  Don't tell me you "can't!"
    If you wish, tell me why you WON'T, not why you CAN'T.  Certainly
    you are smart enough to ask yourself this question and answer it.
         I agree with the statements made in this string about therapists.
    Your yelling at me about your ego *is* your ego!  I wasn't yelling
    about leaving egos behind.  I simply pointed out that one must be
    WILLING to leave their ego behind...humility is a word that comes
    to mind.  Put the hammer down and the pain can stop.  If you 
    really wanted to find a therapist, you would have entered a note
    in here, in HUMAN_RELATIONS, in PSYCHOLOGY or any of a number of
    other places to get an answer.  I don't think you really want a 
    therapist at all.  I think you have another agenda.  This is my
    personal opinion and of course I don't expect you to care for it.
         Finding a therapist can be difficult for some people.  But if
    those who are therapists can find therapists, then so can you
    or anybody else.  If it is important to you, you will find it 
    (the woman therapist you want.)  Yelling at everyone who has some
    ideas around it doesn't seem like a particularly useful way to 
    find it, however.  
         As I stated (and which you also seemed to ignore) choosing a
    therapist may very well be appropriately done by sizing up the 
    similarities or differences and making choices that way.  But often,
    like it or not, some of the most meaningful things come from those
    who are *different* from us,,,different sex, different color, 
    different religion, etc.  So, to *generalize* and say that one
    should seek a therapist who has the gender you want, the religion
    you want, the color you want, etc., may very well be a disservice.
    I will never make *that* generalization, but you, on the other hand,
    can (and heaven forbid anyone ever accuse you of making broad,
    sweeping, unbiased generalizations.)
         I'm sorry I don't agree with everything you say.  I'm sorry that
    I have my own opinions and you don't like that.  But I'm not going
    to be bullied into submitting to your rage, which is what you have
    been displaying in this string.  I am not a valid target.  I made my
    offering with good intention and honest expression.  If it upsets
    you, I guess I have to live with it (until I "won't" not until I
    "can't.")
    
    Frederick
    

    
    
    
    Not having read most of this string, just a few little snippets here
    and there, I just wanted to comment on something that I realized during
    my most depressed time (when I made this realization, and a few others,
    was the first time when I really started making progress):
    
    	Most times the words that put me on the defense the most
    	are the words that ring truest in my heart.  Most times it's
    	hardest to accept from others an analysis that is most accurate.
    
    
    
    Just some thoughts.
    
    kathy

    Well, you topped yourself on offensiveness, Frederick.  And you seemed
    to miss the main point, both of my note and of our long discussion on
    the phone: I didn't ask for your advice, I don't want your advice, and
    your giving you advice when it is unasked for and unwanted is
    condescending.
    
    Therefore, I will not communicate with you on this issue anymore.  Give
    your advice to someone who gives a f*ck.
    
    D!

    Frederick,
    
    There is one datum which you, as an older Caucasian male, are
    probably unaware of.
    
    Women are trained, all their lives, in how to be humble, in how
    to live, not merely demonstrate, humility.  Women know, all their
    lives, that their very being in not entirely in their own control.
    Women are forced, all their lives, to quash their egos, to ignore
    their own desires and preferences, to give up what they want.
    
    Now you are telling a woman to be more humble, to squash her ego
    a little flatter, and getting upset (to the tune of 57 lines) when
    she explains that you have not found a solution that fits her
    problem.
    
    						Ann B.

    re: .21 (Diana)
    
         I think your attitude is evident and speaks legions...
    
    re: .22 (Ann)
    
         Thank you for the lesson in women's history.
    
    Frederick
    

Re: .23
>   re: .21 (Diana)
    
>        I think your attitude is evident and speaks legions...

Looked in a mirror lately?

	-- Charles

    re:.22
    
       Not all women are raised this way...some get lucky.
    
    
    
                                       L.J.

    I haven't read every reply in this string, but I had a rotten
    experience yesterday with trying to find a therapist.
    
    I belong to an HMO, and I called several weeks ago to get an
    appointment to see someone about some problems I'm having.  The first
    question out of the receptionist's mouth was, "Are you suicidial?"  I
    said no.  They gave me an appointment three weeks out.  Last week my
    problems blew up bigger than I *ever* thought they could, and I called
    again to *insist* the HMO group see me *that* day.  They did me a
    *huge* favor, and said they'd see me the next day. 
    
    The session (last Thursday) was somewhat helpful, and the counselor
    told me the session I had set for August 14 would be of the most help. 
    I'd clung to the fact someone would be able to get me working on my
    issues on August 14.  I went to the appointment yesterday, and was
    listened to for an hour.  There was a lot of nodding from the
    counselor.  At the end of the session the counselor told me I was on
    the right track.  She would wait list me for an appointment next week
    (or I could just wait until September 3), and she'd *wait list* me for
    a group session that would start in late September.  
    
    I can't tell you how angry I am about this.  I told the counselor
    yesterday that if I could wait until late September for assistance I
    wouldn't have called in late July!  What the hell is with these places,
    anyway???!
    
    I spent the afternoon yesterday on the telephone, calling all sorts of
    places to see if I could find someone that specializes in the area
    where I'm having a problem.  I ended up spending the afternoon in a
    doctor's office, having a evaluation done.  Finally, a counselor was
    recommended to me that specializes in my problem area.  But now I have
    the issue of my HMO not being willing to pay for me getting help.  At
    this point money isn't the issue, it's my sanity at stake.
    
    So, I am trying to get an appointment with this therapist sometime
    today or tomorrow or Monday.  I am going to interview her (because I've
    already talked to five people that don't seem to have much to offer),
    but what kinds of things can I ask right away that will help me
    determine if this person is a good fit?  I hate to think I'll be
    wasting $100+ a week on something that's going to leave me feeling the
    way I feel today.  (I understand no one can solve my problems for me,
    and I'm not looking for that.  What I need is someone to shine some
    insight onto my situation to help me understand it better, and to get
    me moving on with my life.)
                   
    -jc

    
   Frederick,
   	
   Be careful please.  Your presentation style has a strong flavor
   of "you should do this" language.  While fine for expressing an
   opinion it is not always a good way to advise someone of possible
   options.  It's a short path communications wise from suggesting a
   possible options to telling someone what they should do or be.  It's
   a sensitive point for me, I prefer to be offered choices and options
   that could work for me.   Telling me I must/should/will do something
   will activate very old defense mechanisms.  I suspect it would cause
   the havoc for others.

   A minor nit, waiving your age, degree, or whatever make me think you
   want to prove you know something and therefore should be listened to
   or that I as the reader am so stupid as to be beyond belief.  Both
   are demeaning and insulting to me.  
   	
   	peace,
   	Allison
   	

    

Re: .26

Let's just say that HMOs and counseling seem to be a poor match....

I was having some problems a few years ago... the HMO that I belong to
requires that to see a specialist you MUST get a referral from your
primary care physician first.  So while I'm in for my 30,000-mile
checkup, I ask the doctor about referral to a counselor.  He asks me
a few questions about my home life, then drops the subject.  When the
physical is over, I ask him about counseling, and he says "You don't
need it, you're fine!"

Gee... I didn't know that general practitioners were qualified to make
psychological diagnoses 8-(

    re:  HMO's
    
    Digital makes contracts with the HMO's to provide mental health
    service.  The contract provides that the service will be reasonable
    and adequate for the employees' needs.  If it isn't, the company wants
    to know about it.  You can (and should) contact EAP with any complaints
    you have about the adequacy of HMO mental health coverage.  I feel 
    the same way about my HMO's mental health coverage.  I think it
    generally is understaffed to the point that it is very difficult to
    get timely and regular appointments.
    						- Vick

    
    
    re .22
    
    That's bullshit!
    
    Have a nice pity party.
    
    bonnie

    
    re .30:  I've never found anything Ann has to say to
    be "bullshit".  I think you're extremely rude and
    insulting.  If you have an issue with the content of
    Ann's reply, you could try to articulate it with more
    than four letter words.  Or maybe that's too difficult
    for you?
    

    .30 Bonnie
    
    Your experience may have been different. That doesn't make what Ann
    said bullshit.
    manisha

    
    Gosh, I don't know why I'm surprised (but I am) to see how much
    anger has come up here.  
    
    Rereading all the replies here's what I saw:
    
      I start a string on how to find a therapist
    
      Someone writes about what makes it hard for her to find a good match
      with a therapist
    
      A few other folks suggest that she should stop doing that thing (that
      makes it hard)
    
      She gets mad
    
    
    I think we'll have better luck if we consider this topic a repository
    for questions, answers, and experiences but we hold off on offering
    judgements unless asked.  I know that for me this is a very scary
    and loaded topic.  The other night at dinner I wouldn't tell my
    best friend my therapist's last name -- what if she knew her?!!  An
    odd thing, it struck me, to be so protective, but that's what came out.
    
    If folks would like to talk about how to BE in therapy, I suggest you
    start another topic.  I'd like to see this as a place where folks can
    share stuff without being judged, because I think that will be most
    hopeful to those who are trying to figure out how to find a therapist,
    and that is the purpose of this note.
    
    Thank you,
    
    Justine -- Comod and basenote author

    Quite apart from the fact that I have NO personal opinion of the
    author, I don't think that entry is either rude or insulting...
    
    I do however feel that suggesting the author may have difficulty
    expressing concepts in larger that four words IS intentionally both
    rude and insulting. (and is an understandable reaction to a perceived
    insult)
    
    I don't think she has an issue with the content of Ann's reply
    I think she had an emotion reaction to the mood/feelings of Ann's reply.

    One seldom responds to feelings with well articulated well reasoned
    presentations for -i think- two reasons...

    	o they aren't relevant
    	o they won't be heard.
    	o anger makes it (at least virtually) impossible
    
    I think that BULLSHIT and pity party, well express the emotional
    reactions of lots of us. And are very effective metaphors for the
    feelings that lots of us have.
    
    Expressing what we are thinking is difficult enough with the written
    word, expressing what we are FEELING is scads MORE difficult.
    
    Rebutting feelings with logic simply don't work, it ain't relevant.
    What's relevant is that a bunch of us are VERY, VERY pissed off at each
    other.
    
    
    				herb

    a few cents of my own...
    
    When I started therapy, I was lucky enough to have a *wonderful*
    counselor.  I suppose the sole coordinator of the Sexual Abuse program
    at Dartmouth would have to be!  She let me find my own way...prodding a
    little when she saw me breaking through my experiences but never
    forcing me to do anything.  She really guided my therapy but not by
    intruding upon it.
    
    Now I'm with a new therapist before I move to Baltimore.  It's --
    different...not necessarily bad but I'm uncomfortable.  She's an MD and
    goes on sometimes about how my therapist at school should have done
    blahblahblah.  She has a tendency to break in with exclamations of "Oh,
    that's a symptom of post-tramautic stress disorder!"  Thanks.  I needed
    to know that to know it sucks?
    
    She also has a habit to threaten the perscription pad...
    
    This is "her mode"  I'm sticking with it cause we only have two more
    session until I can move and find someone I can work with...I need to
    work it out, but I wouldn't get very far with her...
    
    This is kind of a crap shoot from my experience...

    A few pointers from my experience:
    
    HMOs are notorious for bad therapy coverage and for not attracting
    the best professionals in the field. They do only short-term work,
    and a lot of therapy work can't be done in 13 weeks.
    
    My advice is to make sure you feel better after seeing the therapist.
    It's almost that simple. I saw a lot of incompetents before I found
    a good one. And all the incompetents had equal or better credentials
    than the good one. A good therapist will deliver results from day one,
    not fix the problem from day one, but deliver tangible results.
    
    A good therapist will also get you to let go of your defense
    mechanisms, regardless of what they are and regardless of how much
    you know about the technique. She may not say "Could
    you cut the bullshit and talk about your feelings." That may not
    be the shortest route to the goal for you. If that's what you want her 
    to do, though, you need to tell her that. 
    
    Finally, therapy is not in one's head. It was for me a discovery of
    a universe I didn't know existed before, with a language and set of
    rules all its own. It has been the most interesting activity I've
    ever engaged in. I think that it is not only useful in curing
    illness but also enriching in all ways, and that it is a moral force
    much more effective in the world today than the techniques of all
    the world's religions.  Joseph Campbell said the psychotherapists
    are the shamans of our society.
    
    Eileen

    Well, after much frustration and a lot of phone calls, Brookside
    Hospital finally directed me towards a therapist that specializes in
    the areas where I'm having problems.  I have an evalution appointment
    set up for next week with this new therapist -- when she will determine
    if she can help me.  
    
    My question is what can *I* ask her that will help me evaluate if she
    can help me?  The cost of the evaluation is $125, and each visit after
    that is $90.  I am sure that for the next few weeks I am going to need
    to go at least once a week, so the cost is going to add up pretty
    quickly.  (I'm not "happy" about the cost, but I have to do everything
    I can right now to feel better.)  At these prices I really would like
    to feel confident that I'm getting (or will get) real help.
    
    Suggestions?
    
    -jc
    

    . 26 and .37
    
    If you find that Brookside feels like a fit, ask them about a sliding 
    scale for the fee, or about setting up some sort of payment plan (like 
    mastercard - your balance is XXX	and your minimum payment is xx).  
    
    If that doesn't work out and you're willing to travel a little, Boundaries 
    Therapy Center in Acton, MA may fit the bill.  They handle all types of
    therapy - individual, group, couple, child, adolescent, substance abuse, 
    abuse survivors, etc.  It took me a couple of tries before I found a
    therapist that "fit" me, but it was worth the trouble.   
    
    
    

    
    How do spell R_E_L_I_E_F ?  (Or G_O_O_D T_H_E_R_A_P_I_S_T)
    
    My sourcing has always been through friends ("who have you talked to?")
    
    In four different time frames, I knew at the end of the first session
    because the therapist had given me some small piece of help.  I walked
    away with either a little more piece of mind or some small excitement
    about the potential.  That was in two cases.  In the other two, I told
    myself "this takes time, try a few more sessions".  Mistake. 
    
    Go with your "gut".
    
    
    
    my best results have come from
    recommendations from close friends

    
    Tactical ideas.
    
    I tell the therapist up front that I am choosing a therapist. 
    I've learned to take a list of questions into the first visit, such as:
    	Educational background
        Area(s) of specialization
    	Number of years' experience
    	What methods s/he uses
    	A list of issues I want to work on. (yeah the list may change, butI
   		 want to know what she would do about the problems I *know*
    		 I have)
    
    My particular hotbutton is therapists that need my money.  I say
    something like "you're kind of far away for me.  Who do YOU know that
    closer to me that you could recommend" My experience is that really good
    therapists don't mind recommending someone else.  Not-so good ones want
    to keep you for themselves.  GRR!) 
    
    And as I said before, if I haven't gotten some value or felt some
    unmistakeable *connection* by the end of the FIRST visit, I don't go
    back. 
    
    Works for me. 

    
    Not for everybody.  No flames please.
    
    D! - an idea. Your defense mechanisms are very strong.  You want to get
    beyond them.
    
    Have you thought about a weekend session with LifeSprings? They're
    national; you could look them up in the phone book. 
    
    The basic course is confrontive and supportive.  You will love it and you
    would hate it. Vehemently.  (I called up the friend who got me into it
    after the second day and chewed him out for 1/2 hour.  I had lunch with
    a week later to say thank you.)
    
    I learned many things that are useful.  I also left some things behind
    because they don't work for me.
    
    I do NOT recommend this for anyone with a weak personality; they're
    trying to create fundamental changes in a short time, and it's rough
    when they dynamite those safe, familiar barriers.  But it's good stuff
    if you know what you want out of it. 
    
    Jamd

        Have you thought about a weekend session with LifeSprings? They're
        national; you could look them up in the phone book.
    
    Yes, I have.  And Est, too, and similar things.  Unfortunately, I can
    spare neither the time nor the money.
    
    Someday, though.
    
    Also, I think such workshops (or whatever you call them) are going for
    making a *dent* in what needs to be fixed, but they don't provide a
    change in the way you live your life on a day-to-day basis, and so they
    aren't a substitute for a counselor, but rather an augmentation.
    
    Thanks for the suggestion, though.
    
    D!

    Hi D!,
    I am curious about how you have researched workshops like Lifespring
    and est.  Have you read about them or have you gone to sample events? 
    It is experiential learning, and it would be important to actually try
    it out at a guest event, if you have not already.
    
    I ask this because I saw a few things in your note that don't match up
    with what I found in doing Lifespring.  I'll address these things:
    
    From my experience with group therapy in college and with Lifespring
    last year, I found that it is easy to bullshit (or do my thing, which
    is to "hide") in "talk" approaches but very difficult to keep up the
    barrier in "do" approaches.  Actions speak louder than words.  For me,
    it is in learning to DO something different that I learn to expand
    beyond my automatic reflexes.  I had lived life very much in my head
    and was GOOD at it.  Experiential learning gets in your bones because
    it is learning by actually RIDING the bike (of your life), rather than
    learning by talking about riding a bike.
    
    You are right, these workshops are not therapy and not a substitute for
    a counselor.  They are not places to go to be "fixed".  However, they
    ARE places to go to 1) get tools for yourself to use in your day-to-day
    life, 2) see yourself in action over and over, 3) connect with others
    in a wholly new way, 4) learn to reinvent yourself as you DO things, so
    that what you say you want matches up with what you actually create
    around you.  It is about bypassing your head so that all the craftiness
    and fears and automatic patterns are no longer stops for you.  
    
    For me, I did the Lifespring trainings (Basic 5-day, Advanced 5-day)
    last August, for a total of $1350.  I had been someone who needed total
    security, stability, reasonableness, and intellectual work.  In ONE
    MONTH, out of that outlay of money and time, I was able to find the
    courage to discover and act out my wildest dream and make it into
    reality:  drop out of GEEP and the master's program in order to become
    a massage therapist.  I graduated from massage school in June and am
    starting three businesses.  I LOVE what I do and it is SO satisfying to
    be living life from my heart and giving, not from my head and my fears
    and my stops.  
    
    If that's not making a change in the way I live my life on a day-to-day
    basis, then I don't know what is!  This stuff WORKS because you get it
    in your bones, not in your brain.  
    
    My experience with a vehicle like this; your mileage may vary...!
    Pam

    Oh, one more thing, D!
    
    In your note .1 you mentioned that your training in putting up barriers
    is very good because of practice in your childhood.  To my mind, that
    may just be the mechanism you are using.  The real issue may be that
    for you the therapist IS your mom and you are still resisting HER.
    
    So it wouldn't be that you're resisting the therapy, you're simply
    recreating your childhood experience over and over.  Changing
    therapists is not the answer, changing the CONTEXT of what therapy is
    for you may be.
    
    You may need to do something else that doesn't seem like therapy to you
    to find a backdoor to your defense mechanisms...
    
    An AHA! from this morning on the way to work,
    Pam

    Over the past month I've been working and working on finding a
    therapist, and at last I've found one!  The way I went about it
    was to spend at least two sessions with each therapist before I
    decided if things we working for me.  I needed the therapist to
    help me understand my current situation, and work with me to 
    better understand who I am, and why I've become the person I've
    become.  I found the therapists that asked me *lots* of questions
    about my past have been the ones that are most helping me with my
    future (and what I'm currently experiencing!).
    
    The key to my finding the right person was to spend time with them,
    see how much they asked me about *me*, and for me to feel they were
    providing insight into understanding the people in my life that have
    been so destructive to me.  I needed to feel the therapist understood
    my problems, helped me identify pieces I didn't see before, and was
    identifying tools that I could use to help me feel better.
    
    -Janice